#South Asian names

[writingwithcolor]

Conlanging Issues: A Compendium

NOTE: This question was submitted before the Nov 1, 2023 reopening and may not adhere to all rules and guidelines. The ask has been abridged for clarity. 

Most of my questions are about linguistics. […] One of the major locations in my story is a massive empire with cultural inspirations ranging from North Africa in the far south to Mongolia/Russia in the far north […] The middle region is where the capital is and is the main root of culture, from which Ive been taking inspiration from Southwest Asia […], but most notably southern regions of India. I've tried to stick to the way cities are named in Sanskrit-based languages but added the names of stars to the front (because the prevalent religion of this region worships the stars [...]). So Ive ended up with names like Pavoprayag, Alyanaga, Alkaiduru, Alcorpura, Cygnapete, etc. Is this a consistent naming system or should I alter it in some way? The empire itself is named the Arcana Empire since [...] each act of my story is named after a tarot card [...]. Another region in my story is based more on parts of South China and North Vietnam, so I've tried to stick to names with a Chinese origin for that. I understand the significance of family names in southwest [sic] Asia, so I wanted to double check [...]. They have only two short given names. Based on the birth order of the child, the first half of the name comes from the fathers family and the second half from the mothers family. It is seen as disrespectful not to use both names because using only one is seen as denouncing that side of your family. Thus I have names like Su Yin, Dai Jun, and Yi Wen for some of the characters from this region, and the city itself that they are from is named Bei Fen. On the other hand, Im having further trouble naming characters. […] Ive been trying to give my human characters names from real human cultures to distinguish them from the website-generated names of say, orcs, elves, dwarves, etc, but I think I should change many of the names Ive used to be more original and avoid fracturing real world cultures for the sake of my worldbuilding. […] Im still very weak in the linguistics area (even after four years of French, sigh) and am having trouble finding where to read about naming patterns so I can make new ones up. I read your naming guides but am still having trouble on where to start for specific languages. […] Im trying to look into Sanskrit, Turkish, and Persian specifically.

You're Going Too Broad

In my opinion, you’re casting too wide a net. You mentioned looking into Sanskrit, Turkish, and Persian to develop fantasy names. These languages are very different from one another, so unless you’re using them separately for very different parts of your world, it will be hard to draw inspiration from them in a way that makes sense. You’re taking on a huge amount of research in order to worldbuild cultures that span a massive geographical area (basically all of North Africa and Asia?) and have very little in common. Are you sure you want to take on that task?

I could see it being more manageable if most of your story is set in a small region of this world, which you will then research in depth to make sure you’re being as specific as possible.

Taking Persian as an example, you’ll have to decide whether you want to use Old Persian, Middle Persian, or Modern Persian. Each of these comes with a different alphabet and historical influences. They’re also associated with different periods of time and corresponding cultural and social markers. Once you’ve decided exactly when and where you want to start from, you can then expand the borders of your area of focus. For example, if you’ve decided to draw inspiration from Achaemenid Persia, you can then look at the languages that were spoken in the Achaemenid Empire. A quick Google search tells me that while Old Persian was the empire’s official language, they also used Aramaic, Akkadian, Median, Greek, and Elamite (among, I’m sure, many many others and many more regional variations). Further research into each of these will give you ethnic groups and bordering nations that you can draw more inspiration from to expand out your worldbuilding.

Don’t forget to make sure you’re staying within the same time period in order to keep things consistent. It’s a lot of work, and this is only for a small portion of the continent-spanning worldbuilding you’re trying to do.

You can get away with painting the rest of the continent in broad strokes without too much depth if the story doesn’t go there and you don’t have any main characters from those parts of the world. Otherwise, you’ll need to put this same level of detail into your worldbuilding for the area with Turkish-inspired names, and again for the area with Sanskrit-inspired names, and so on.

I know this isn’t what you were asking, but I honestly have a hard time helping you figure out where to start because your ask is so broad I don’t quite know where I would start myself. So, this is my advice: focus down on one region and time period and go from there. Feel free to write back once you’ve picked a narrower focus that we could help you with.

- Niki

So there’s logistical issues in regards to your naming system for southern China-coded regions. One issue is history: mainly on how there is not simply one language in China but multiple due to having a lot of ethnic groups and the size of China. South China in particular has different dialects and languages than the North as seen in this map of Chinese languages and dialects. There’s also how historically Mandarin was not the official language until 1913 in China and historical China saw vast changes in territory dependent on the dynasty. Before then, Mandarin was primarily a northern Chinese language based in Beijing while southern China had its own languages, dialects, and dynamics. Not to mention, historical China saw an evolution of language just like English has Old English, Middle English, Early Modern English, and Modern English. For instance, Vietnam was once part of China during the Tang Dynasty and at another point, it was not part of China.

-Mod Sci

If You’re Borrowing Whole Words or Elements, Research More

The other issue is inconsistency with the cultures you’re deriving this conlang from. In regards to “two given names,” the Chinese name I was given was one syllable and then I would have a last name that was also one syllable. There’s also how not every family is perfect. Not every marriage is sanctioned and some children may come from single parents. Some families may not cooperate with marriage and sometimes children may be abandoned with unknown parents. There does not seem to be contingencies for these names under this conlang system.

The main problem with conlangs is that one needs to truly understand the languages one is drawing from. Tolkein managed to create conlangs due to training in linguistics. Mandarin is already a difficult language with multiple tones, and trying to use it for conlangs without knowledge of how Mandarin works or a good foundation in linguistics is just a Sisyphean endeavor.

-Mod Sci

Four years of French wouldn’t have taught you about linguistics as a science or anything about the language families you’ve listed - Indo-Iranian, Sino-Tibetan, and Turkic, nor any Asian naming conventions. I agree with Niki that you need to narrow down your research.

Pur/pura means city in Sanskrit (ex: Gurdaspur, Hoshiarpur). Prayag is a place where pilgrimages are done. Naga isn’t a place name in Sanskrit (google says it means snake), nagar is and it means town. X Nagar is a very common name for places (Ex: Rajinder Nagar). Many cities in Karnataka have names ending in uru (Bengaluru, Mysuru, Mangaluru, Tumakuru, etc) but the language of Karnataka is Kannada - a Dravidian language and completely different family from Sanskrit (Indo-Aryan). I’m not sure where “pete” came from. “Bad” and “vaal” are common suffixes for places too (Ex: Faisalabad, Allahabad). A disclaimer that I do not speak Sanskrit, I speak Punjabi, which is a descendant of Sanskrit and in the same linguistic family (Indo-Aryan languages).

- SK

Also, This Is Not…Really Conlanging.

Hi OP. Linguistics refers to the science of studying how languages work, not the discipline of learning languages. And nothing shows that gap more than how you have thus far approached constructing fictional languages and toponyms. 

The reason why Sci and SK have a lot to say about your place names is because they don't resonate—you have borrowed whole words into your toponyms (place names) from a variety of languages—without an accurate understanding of what these words mean, how they’re pronounced, where they’re derived from—and expected them to work together. I suggest you read the links below on why conlanging is not as simple as choosing some languages and mashing their IRL words together: 

Why Using Random Languages Wholesale in your Fantasy is a Bad Idea 

Pitfalls of Mashing Countries and Languages in Coding

In your city names, for example, you’re using star names from multiple languages that use different sets of sounds represented by different sets of historical spelling rules. “Cygn-” and “Arcana” stick out like a sore thumb—the fact that one “c” is /s/ and one is /k/ is an obvious flag that they are Latin-derived English borrowings. This is because spelling rules were created in Middle English to make sense of the mix of “c” pronunciations across words of Indo-European origin due to a historical split called the Centum-Satem division. This is a phenomenon that is very specific to our world history, and to the history of English at that. Ironically, in your attempt to avoid stock fantasy names (which also often fall into the Latin-derived English pit), you are taking the exact same approach to naming.

Like Niki said, your selections are far too broad to code under a single umbrella. Do you expect that whatever language that city name came from runs the full gamut of sound inventory & spelling variety that spans multiple continents and hundreds of languages? Because that’s not how languages work. (And yes, I mean hundreds. Indigenous languages and linguistic diversity are a thing. See Niki’s note about just the languages in Persia. And nation-states bulldozing over those languages and pretending it’s just one language is a thing. See Sci’s note about China.) I haven't even talked about the variation in morphology (how words are formed) or syntax (sentence structure).

Please just read or re-read my guide on “naming conlangs” in this post and start from there.

~ Rina

PSA ON CONLANGING AND FANTASY NAMES:

For fantasy language asks submitted after Nov 1, 2023, the asker must indicate that they have read Mod Rina’s conlanging posts linked in FAQ 2 (Guides and Posts by Topic) of the Masterpost under the question “How do I make a fictional language for my story?” While this is an older ask, we are posting it as an example to our followers.

Per our new rules, any questions that can be directly answered in or extrapolated from the FAQs, or questions that indicate that the relevant resources haven’t been read, will be deleted with a note in the Deletion Log explaining why.

As always, if this post was helpful or educational to you, please consider tipping the relevant mods: SK, Niki, Sci, and Rina.

Edited for terminology errors

#asks #naming #languages #linguistics #Persian #Chinese #South Asian #worldbuilding #coding

[lesbianfakir]

It is my god given mission to NOT draw fakir as a white boy idc what’s canon, this interview annoys me so bad

[ID: rough transcript of an interview with Ikuko Itoh. Someone asks “since fakir is an Arabic word, does that mean fakir is Arab and/or was he intentionally made to look so, and if so why?” The transcriber writes “her response to this is that while in her mind he is not Arab, she wouldn’t rule out the possibility that fakir has Arab ancestry in his family tree”]

WHY’D YOU GIVE HIM AN ARABIC NAME THEN?? It’s okay mr fakir I won’t let her whitewash you

#that one Reddit thread that’s like my friends want to name their white baby jungkook #maybe there’s an argument for him being named after an Arabic word rather than a proper common name BUT #I did my research and all instances I can find of fakir being used as a first name are middle eastern or south Asian men #hmmmmm 🤔🤔 #tho disclaimer I’m white so I’m not the person to be complaining about this #I’m sure someone can articulate the ick much better than I can #or maybe I’m complaining about nothing who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ #anyways when I draw fakir he’s Arab btw #like mixed ig because drossy is in there somewhere #princess tutu #like urghhhh the vibes I get are that she chose the name because she thinks it’s cool and mysterious but I’m like. GIRL #ITS AN ARABIC NAME

[yamishika]

When I used to watch the early seasons of the FT anime , something about Jellal always struck me as distinct about his features. His eyes always looked more prominent than the rest of the guys and I have cracked why.

My guy is wearing Kohl/Surma/Kajal.

Like LOOK at how defined his eyes are compared to another character , you can’t tell me the guy isn’t putting something on. Especially when no other guy or girl character has such defined eye looks (other than Macbeth but it’s obvious he’s wearing eyeliner)

Yes people might say art style for the first season I can agree but look at the characters and then Jellal and tell me if there isn’t something more there.

Look at the guys here , they have dark lashlines but nowhere NEAR as dark and prominent as Jellal.

Even compared to girls from the first season Jellal has a darker and more thicker lash line compared to them.

Look at the difference between him and Erza side by side! He definitely has a more defined lash line! And look compared to FT girls eyes, when it is the convention of girls usually having the darker lashline in anime.

And then Jellal

There's a clear distinction! His is not just more defined and connected compared to men in FT but also females too!

The reason I have come to the conclusion of Kohl/Kajal/Surma is because I HC Jellal with Arab heritage (or whatever would be the equivalent in earthland-) due to his name Jellal (which is basically another spelling of Jalal) and Kohl is known to be used by the men in the Arab culture to beautify them. And also Kohl is used by people in Arabia/India/Egypt due to its medicinal properties for retaining eye health and improving vision!

Also what differentiates for my thinking that Jellal is not using normal eyeliner but Kohl/Surma/Kajal is because of the way it is applied. Other eyeliners can go on the outer eye but Kohl/Surma is traditionally applied always in the inner corners of the eyes, just like Jellal has (in season 1)

(As you can see the girl in the photo above has her eyes lined like Jellal using Kohl/Surma/Kajal)

Considering Jellal’s magic , I can imagine there is a huge priority on his vision due to the speeds he travels at when casting, so it makes sense for him to use such a thing to help him in battle or aid in beating the consequences of using his magic so his sight isn’t compromised and remains strong!

Also because Jellal's magic revolves around using stars/light , this medicinal cosmetic has also been used to protect against the glare of light which would also come to help for Jellal in battle!

So what is the take away from this post? I put way too much thought trying to prove a HC I have had from young but found out it actually adds up now looking at the facts. You guys can tell me if i'm reaching or not with this after seeing the evidence and argument presented.

Also season 1 Jellal Fernandes is an ethnic king and we stan he never forgot his roots. <3

#jellal fernandes #jellal fernandez #ft jellal #Jellal #fairy tail jellal #fairy tail #hc #fairy tail headcanons #heritage hc #ethnicity hc #arabian jellal #egyptian jellal #indian jellal #south asian Jellal #north african Jellal #Jellal has to have ONE of these heritages named above (or maybe mutiple idk??) #ethnic jellal #POC Jellal #kohl #surma #eye kajal #kohl/kajal/surma on anime characters #I put way too much thought into this but it adds up #my first hc post lol #yamishika's hcs

[askthekoopsandjr]

What are your favorite foods you all like?

#Potjiekos and Biltong are South African foods #The Koopalings mother was South African and her name was Adaeh #Their favorite foods would change overtime since living with Bowser #As he is Japanese while neither of their parents were Asian #With Luds and Roy however they held onto their fave meals made by their mom #With Morton he chooses drumsticks bc it holds significance to his relationship with Jr #Iggy is a lost cause. He is one with the pineapple now #koopalings #ludwig von koopa #iggy koopa #wendy o koopa #morton koopa jr #larry koopa #roy koopa #lemmy koopa #bowser jr #nintendo #nintendo fanart #super mario bros #super mario #art asks #ask box open

[halalgirlmeg]

Also I feel like some Muslims heard 'don't mix religion and culture' but like somehow turned that into 'we all should act exactly the same and erase any instance of cultural differences in the name of Islam'

#like calling people's cultural dress haram is not it #same with cultural music #say what you will but music is cultural and taking it away is erasing people's identities #like we're not all arab nor south asian and we shouldn't have to lose our identities bc we're muslim #I really love seeing differences amongst different islamic ethnic groups it's like seeing history #and it's like people being racist misogynistic and homophobic and transphobic in the so called name of islam #when that's the opposite of what you should be doing but policing people's clothes or something #you worried about the wrong thing #random

[rdng1230]

I swear to god if I have to hear them anglicize the shit out of the name Ravi one more time.

PSA: it’s Ruh-vee NOT Rah-vee

#riley watches 911 #911 abc #911 fox #ravi panikkar #it’s disturbing to me that this south Asian actor felt he couldn’t correct pronunciation #Maybe that’s an arc later? #Anyway that’s my brothers name and it’s two fucking syllables it’s not that fucking hard!!!!

[dejwrites]

these princess and the frog fan casting pissing me off because why y’all casting a black man as naveen when naveen is south asian 😭😭😭😭.

#like i’m glad we all agreed that coco jones would be the perfect tiana #but y’all losing me with the naveen casting! #naveen literally is an Indian name! #NOW LETS REGROUP WITH SOUTH ASIAN ACTORS THAT GOT MAJOR RIZZ #cause naveen had rizz as a human and fuckin’ frog

[br1ghtestlight]

i think darryl is mixed pakistani and black. is that an opinion idk

#i would still buy into the theory that his dad is gerald garrison. although darryl garrison is the STUPIDEST possible name #okay its not that bad #black dad and pakistani mom. his mom is muslim but he isnt really religious. dad is whatever abt religion #EDIT actually nvm because im pretty sure gerald's va is south asian #his dad is pakistani and his mom is black. okay? #txt #bob's burgers

[thenixkat]

Hey, remember that time the Tennysons and Forever Knights destroyed a whole ass Mayan temple and murdered a Mayan god in the process of trying to steal an artifact?

#nix meows #ben 10 #but its ok when our white protags desecrate and destroy the holy sites of brown people b/c the writers said so #just... thinking about this in relation to the sk*nwalker episode... #and Ben's South Asian bully that's one of the few nonwhate named characters with lines #listen... Ben 10 kinda racist

[sivavakkiyar]

GV Desani, All About H Hatterr

#gv desani #south Asian literature #got my blog name from this joke

[writingwithcolor]

so, when i was a young teenager (about 13), i created a fantasy world based off of fairytales, with characters that were predominantly white, and or jewish, as that's what i am. over the years it's been diversified, with characters changing to reflect some of the countries of origin that the stories have come from (all through coding, as this is a series set in a world i created). i've become attached and can no longer see these characters as white (honestly taking out the descriptions and pieces of coding would just feel wrong at this point, and isn't something i want to do in any way) however, several issues have popped up as i've grown and my consciousness about what can be deemed as problematic representation has grown. firstly, many of my characters have eurocentric names still. as a writer it's hard to rename characters i've been working with for over a decade, and for some characters it makes sense (for example, the main characters of one of my series is a princess, half white and half iranian, though coding makes this more vague, and has a mostly european name as she's the heir to her father's kingdom, and her father was the one to name her) however, for other characters i'm aware that it doesn't make sense, and am having trouble renaming them as the names no longer feel like the same character. tips on this would be appreciated!

another issue i've run into is that in being fairytale inspired, a small handful of my characters (only two or three) spend some time as animals in the series, a critique i've seen of disney films such as princess and the frog. out of these characters only one is a person of color (the princess from before) and she spends half of her time as a human, as her book is based off of the swan princess, as opposed to one of my white characters, who's in my retelling of beauty and the beast as the beast (with the "beauty" being an indian character i've been having issues renaming). i feel like in comparison to religion, which has been very simple for me to integrate due to my own personal experience, as well as overlaps in the muslim and jewish faith (both of which i have characters from), my handling of race and making sure that my meaning and intentions are clear doesn't translate as well. td;lr: i conceptualized characters as white when i was a child and nearly a decade later am having issues with making sure that i don't portray the changes i've made wrong, as well as renaming characters that have had set names in my mind for this time

Can my characters of color from non-European backgrounds have European names? Also, Characters of Color spending screen-time in animal form

Names

It’s good that you’ve recognized where you’re having difficulty with this. While there may be scenarios in which a character of color has a Eurocentric name for plot reasons, it’s done so often that it wouldn’t feel quite as genuine, as you mentioned. For your Indian character, you will likely need to go more in depth on her background in order to find a name that feels authentic to her character. Check out our naming guide, as well as this previous post as to why we feel that characters of South Asian origin, as well as all other characters of color, should be able to have names that reflect their background. I would suggest looking for names that have a) a similar syllabic/phonetic structure to your previous names and/or b) similar meaning. To make it a bit easier, try to look for names that have a traceable origin before trying to make up your own. 

For your animal shifting characters

look here for some commentary from mod Colette on the connotations of racism in animal transformation. Since you’re not solely transforming a character of color, and the swan princess is presumably going to spend most of her interactions as a human, it doesn’t really ping as fantastic racism.

In terms of your swan princess in particular, while swans tend to be a good-neutral association, many of the original stories of swan maidens tended to center around the maidens being rendered helpless by a man stealing their ‘swan-skins’ and forcing them into a situation where they had to escape or simply acquiesce to their captors’ demands. This can get dicey–where are you intending to go with it beyond the inspiration?? 

Finally, I’m assuming you’ve included multiple specific cultural aspects and traits that indicate the bases you’re drawing your coding from. Reflect on the manner in which you’ve done so and see how it compares to your sources of inspiration. Then, see how your biases/impressions have affected your coding.

~Abhaya

A few notes on the Iranian-coded character

Firstly, you mentioned that you chose your characters’ cultural coding based on where their stories originated from, but Swan Princess is not an Iranian story. Is there a different inspiration for making her Iranian, then? I admit I’m a bit confused on that front.

Secondly I don’t see anything inherently problematic about giving her a European-sounding name. But coupled with the fact that she lives in and is the heir to her (European) father’s kingdom, I would advise you to make sure you’re also giving her cultural connections to her mother’s culture. Writing mixed characters can be tricky, and if you make her essentially disconnected from one of her two cultures, you’re creating a lot of baggage that can be hard to address appropriately, especially if you don’t have that experience yourself.

Some ideas of how to emphasize her connection to her Iranian culture:

Give her an Iranian middle name and/or a hyphenated surname

Have her eat Iranian food–maybe it’s hard to come by in her European kingdom, but she has special treats shipped to her and cherishes them? Or maybe she has Iranian cooks and staff in the palace that make her favorite dishes for her?

Mention that she visits her mother’s country regularly, or if she can’t (with a good reason why), that she misses it

Give her Iranian clothes and jewelry and explore her relationship to those: does she feel comfortable wearing them on a daily basis if the fashion where she lives is very different? Or does she only wear them on special occasions? Does she make a point to use them to honor her culture?

Have her make references to Iranian stories, songs, and poetry that she likes. Is it something her mother taught her as a child? Is she still immersed in them now?

If your worldbuilding includes different languages, mention that she speaks the Iranian-analog language. Who does she speak it with? Do people in her European-coded kingdom speak it too? If not, are there other Iranian characters around who can speak it with her and engage in her culture with her? (if you don’t have any, I highly encourage you to consider including them)

Which brings me to my last point: make sure she’s not your only representation of an Iranian character. All of the things you’re worried about are much less of an issue if they’re not happening to the only Iranian-coded character in the story. If you have other Iranian characters with relatively important, positive roles who have Iranian names and don’t spend half their time as animals, then it becomes easier to see this specific character as just a character instead of a trope.

- Niki

#names #animals #animal shifters #South Asian #Iranian #culture #dehumanization #asks

[cosmicrhetoric]

#wrnt out last night saw a bunch of palestinian and arab and south asian djs and it was so good #like it was the first time i was in a building and KNEW where everyone there stood #literally 200 people chanting refaat's name at the club. #and now im back and i woke up and i just 🙃 idk it feels like coming down in the worst way #like yaaay celebration of palestinian culture but waking up to a fresh news feed. i dont know how anyone can feel normal anymore

[kumbhakarni]

Manifesting Sriya Reddy as Draupadi in the upcoming Palace of Illusions movie. This goddess got both the acting chops and the looks, Suzhal bears testament. Divine powers, please let it happen. Please

#draupadi #the palace of illusions #chitra banerjee divakaruni #mahabharata #south asian #south asian literature #Hire a South Asian actress instead of a PIO please #And please not from the good ol' names from Bollywood #south asian aesthetic #desiblr #desi tag #desi stuff #krishna #mahabharat #subhadra #arjuna

[saetoru]

all the ppl on tik tok getting upset after finding out that prince naveen is south asian is very irritating and reeks of racism <3

#𑁍 — tee talks. #fuck u fuck u fuck u fuck u #it was so clear from the start #his mom wore a saree and his name is so clearly south asian #u were not ''tricked'' #and he is still just as attractive as u found him 30 seconds ago #STFU

[totally-not-an-awkward-okapi]

I’m one of the X-Men fans who does enjoy the student body based stories, but I was initially a little underwhelmed by the Exceptional X-Men’s lineup. I’m of the opinion that it’s very important for an X-Men team have at least one visible mutant, especially a school team, but it didn’t look like any of them where that abnormal.

That was until I looked further into the information we have on them and learned that this was entirely due to the cover artist, as the series artist’s reference sheets for each of them where markedly different than the cover art. So, I figured I’d try to move the designs back towards what they are in my own version of the cover.

#I tried so hard to make the description nice to the cover artists but I’m sorry. #Melee’s mutation is that she’s 6’4 and built like a brick shithouse #Melee’s first name is Thao which is south asian #both Thao and Axo are some flavor of tan in their offical refrence sheets #also Axo is consistently drawn as being extremely triangular and definitely not a twink #oh and BRONZE CAN TURN TO BRONZE. WHY IS SHE FULLY HUMAN ON THE COVER??? #my art #exceptional X-men #X-Men Melee #X-men Axo #X-Men Bronze #emma frost #kitty pryde #katherine pryde #(not sure what name she’s going by now)

[kazamajun]

A couple of my friends are getting into indie game making and in a future project they're naming a creature after me 🥺🥺

#personal #I made a joke about wanting to be immortalized via having my name spelled out on a plate of spaghetti #then mirza asked if I was smth from south; south-east or east-asian myth what would I be and I said manananggal no question #so they're gonna have one named after me cri