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alinaastarkov · 4 years

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Jonsas try to delude themselves with the show. Jonryas with (misplaced) book quotes. The Jonrya quotes like "“What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?” are very beautiful, and represent a deep FAMILYbond. They don't represent romance, or Jon wanting to fuck his sister. Ya'll are some sick fucks for turning a sibling relationship into a sexual one, and are deluded JUST LIKE Jonsas.

(Cont.d) and by the way, don't dump Jonerys together with those 2 these trash ships. Jon and Dany will meet first as man and woman, they won't have the aunt/nephew relationship, so it won't be as gross as Jonsa/Jonrya. They will be canon, romantic, complicated and sexual in a way your ship will never. So don't compare the two.

Ok, this is gonna be a long one. Strap in kids, there’s a lot of bullshit to unpack here.

There is no delusion amongst the jonryas, hun. We have so much evidence to back us up, five books worth of it, the most painfully obvious being ADWD. Jonsas have absolutely nothing to their ship besides a few, so-called “romantic” looks on the show and the (wrong) assumption that Jon likes traditionally feminine women. None of our book quotes are misplaced. They either show how much they love each other as siblings, or how much they are going to love each other romantically.

Now, as you say it represents a “family” bond, I thought I would test that theory, and ask my brother whether he would ever refer to me as “his heart”. What follows is his (and my father’s) genuine response:

Brother: *looks at me quizzically* “No” Dad: “That’s a little weird for a brother and sister, isn’t it?”

I also asked my brother if he would ever refer to me as “his bride”. He said: “No. Not even dad would call our mum that.”

So, even for my happily married parents, it was considered weird to use the term “bride”, and it certainly felt weird for both of us for my brother to call me “his heart”. Doesn’t seem like much of a “family” bond, does it? This is extremely romantic language that my family members would never use, so there’s no way Jon would use it just to say how much he loves her as a sister. If you look at his language about Robb, arguably the sibling he loved second best, it is hugely different.

“I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them . . . I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did. And now there's only me.” - ASOS Jon XI That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." - ASOS Jon XII “Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter.” - ADWD Jon

It’s a far cry from talk of “hearts” and “brides”, and these are the good memories. There are some bad ones too. With Arya, there are apparently no bad memories. Jon and Arya are playing in a whole other league to the rest of their siblings. It’s not platonic anymore, sweetie. It was at one point, but going forward it’s romance or bust and that fact is undeniable.

Who in their right mind hears “What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?” “Is she my sister? Was she ever?” “Would you bed your sister? [...} Longspear’s not your brother.” “Would that he could crush Ramsay Bolton’s throat as easily.” “Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl.” “I have no sister.” The words were knives.” “The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart.” “I want my bride back... I want my bride back... I want my bride back...” and thinks “Oh, they’re only siblings. There’s nothing romantic here at all.” Really, queen?

Come on, gurl. This is how you talk to strangers on the internet? Really? I don’t want you anywhere near any of these characters. It’s really embarrassing that you think this is ok. Seriously. I’m embarrased for you. This was my face when I read this:

Also, Jon clearly does want to fuck his sister, but not whilst she’s still 11, and none of us are hoping that they do. We are just stating facts. Their relationship is no longer just familial, and when they’re older, their relationship will reach it’s natural conclusion. We all love their sibling relationship, we’re just not blind to the facts. We’re not the ones who “turned” the relationship romantic, or “want it to”, the writing did that for us. We’re just along for the ride. I will also point you to the original outline, which has not been completely scrapped, which states “Jon and Arya’s passion will continue to torment them until Jon’s parentage reveal in the last book.” Once again, the author and his writing does our work for us. I could go on for hours about the foreshadowing, romantic implications and tension and all sorts that points to Jonrya, but other people have done this so many times so, learn to read.

We are not deluded, we have the story and the characters to back us up, and no one deserves to be called a “sick fuck” for shipping fictional characters. You need to evaluate your priorities if you think any of this has any impact on real life.And this is very ironic that a jonerys shipper is coming for me about “iNcEsT iS bAd.” Let me spell it out for you, in case you had not noticed:

YOUR SHIP IS AUNT AND NEPHEW! If you wanna start comparing how “gross” or “imoral” ships are, yours is biologically way worse. I don’t care about that, but you brought it up.

Claiming these jonrya quotes represent a “family” bond is like watching The Borgias, hearing “I promised you a heart, sister.” “Whose? Your own?”, “And if… my husband proves ungallant?” “I shall cut his heart out with a dinner knife and serve it to you”, “The only thing that never tires me is you. … Can you tell me why we’re cursed with this feeling that feels so natural, and good? When we’re together, God seems to sit in the room with us. And when you’re away, I manage to forget you. And then…one touch of your hand and God comes rushing back” and “You will be naked, clean, and bloodless again. And mine,” and then claiming that Cesare and Lucrezia “oNlY hAvE a FaMiLy BoNd.” Come on, gurl.

As to your words about Jonerys, I can only disagree. Now, they do not know they are related, this is true, but given that how will it be more complicated than Jonrya? There are no taboos, no angst, and that just makes them boring. And don’t bring up the fact that they’ll find out he’s a targ, cause that will cause conflict between him and Arya. I’ve already illustrated why Jonrya is and will be both romantic and sexual. So, basically, your ship has nothing ours doesn’t have, and it in fact has less. We have 5 books of build up and actual interaction. You have foreshadowing, I’ll admit, and I know they will meet and work together, but there is very little indication of a romance. Meanwhile, if you’re still not convinced, maybe re-read the series cause I think you missed some things.

Hun, I would never group Jonerys/ Jonsa with Jonrya, because there’s one thing we have that you two don’t...

We’re canon. 😎

Bye, Felicia!

#neve has mail #asoiaf #jonrya #jon x arya #jon snow #arya stark #again NOT anti jonerys stans #cause i'm friends with you guys mostly #but damn #crazies every where #looks like the bus to the insane asylum dropped this one by accident #someone come pick up your friend!#she's lost and confused and harrassing strangers on the internet #god i hope she doesn't fall and can't get back up #cause i assume she is elderly with her purist views #(jk i do hope that)#i'm don with ya'll #anyway stan the king and queen in the north for clear skin #and they cool aunt friend dany who's just here to be supportive

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turtle-paced · 5 years

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Appreciation Post: Cersei Lannister

So I thought I’d do the Stark girls first, but I was really feeling the Lannister appreciation last week.

Ned knelt in the snow to kiss the queen’s ring, while Robert embraced Catelyn like a long-lost sister…

Cersei is in somewhat of an unusual position when it comes to her PoV. She’s been a major character in the series from the word go. And a piece of work. Then, all of a sudden, she’s arguably the dominant voice of AFFC. She’s still a piece of work, but damn if she’s not a three-dimensional, tragic piece of work.

Cersei’s first real appearance, quoted above, is a beautifully understated character establishment - she’s the queen, and she can set formalities to a certain degree, but instead she chooses to make Ned Stark kneel in the snow to acknowledge her status. Mean becomes alarming as we discover through Bran that she’s having an affair with her twin brother, and then quickly becomes outright villainous given her complicity in the attempted murder of Bran for witnessing said affair.

Her political antagonism to our then-PoV characters is clear, and her viciousness becomes steadily more apparent throughout AGoT, as we see her insist that Mycah and Lady die for Joffrey’s humiliation at Darry (and her inability to recognise that there is something very wrong with Joffrey’s behaviour). She’s a leading suspect in the murder of Jon Arryn. Ned comes to believe, not without reason, that Cersei is trying to kill her husband.

And yet even in AGoT we know that she’s not doing this out of an unadulterated desire for power.

Purple with rage, the king lashed out, a vicious backhand blow to the side of the head. She stumbled against the table and fell hard, yet Cersei Lannister did not cry out. Her slender fingers brushed her cheek, where the pale smooth skin was already reddening. On the morrow the bruise would cover half her face. "I shall wear this as a badge of honor," she announced.

- Eddard X, AGoT

That’s a serious hit, to say the least, and when Ned confronts Cersei about her affair with Jaime, the bruise is still on her face. (We find out in AFFC that Robert raped Cersei as well as hit her.) The domestic violence Cersei’s suffered in her marriage to Robert contextualises that confrontation, so that it’s not quite as simple as “Ned good, Cersei evil.” Ned is sympathetic in his desire to minimise war and to save Cersei’s children - but Ned is also doing his utmost to maintain the reign of a man we know hits his wife. Cersei’s actions with Mycah and Lady, her murder of Robert’s bastard children and mistresses, put her firmly in the villain camp - but at the same time, she is not without her reasons or justification for hating Robert, at least, and the men who support him.

As a character, Cersei becomes more complex once we get more intimate views of her in ACoK and ASoS. One of the most gut-wrenching is her reaction when Tywin informs Cersei that she’s to be married off again.

"So long as you remain unwed, you allow Stannis to spread his disgusting slander," Lord Tywin told his daughter. "You must have a new husband in your bed, to father children on you."

"Three children is quite sufficient. I am Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, not a brood mare! The Queen Regent!"

"You are my daughter, and will do as I command."

- Tyrion III, ASoS

Her title does not protect her against her father’s dictatorial stance towards her sex life. If her father wants to use Cersei as a brood mare for political gain...that’s what’s going to happen to Cersei. Even when she’s past thirty, even when she’s already been through one hellish marriage, even when she’s the queen.

Tyrion, her brother, who knows her well, can see frailties in her that Ned couldn’t.

"I do not require your help. It was our father's presence that I commanded."

"Yes," he said quietly, "but it's Jaime you want."

His sister fancied herself subtle, but he had grown up with her. He could read her face like one of his favorite books, and what he read now was rage, and fear, and despair.

- Tyrion I, ACoK

Moreover, Tyrion’s quality scheming shows up the fact that while Cersei’s great at rewriting history, she’s also something of a blunt political instrument. Her solution to problems are murder, money, and sex, and that’s about it. This impression is heightened through Cersei’s interactions with Sansa. Those interactions in particular, in both ACoK and ASoS, show that Cersei’s response to the abuse she’s suffered is to inflict the same abuse on others.

"Joffrey will show you no such devotion, I fear. You could thank your sister for that, if she weren't dead. He's never been able to forget that day on the Trident when you saw her shame him, so he shames you in turn. You're stronger than you seem, though. I expect you'll survive a bit of humiliation. I did. You may never love the king, but you'll love his children."

- Sansa IV, ACoK

Her son’s abusing his fiancee, similar to how Cersei herself was abused by Robert? Sansa can toughen up. Cersei hacked it, so Sansa should as well.

In general, Cersei’s relationship with Joffrey is a powerful antidote to the idea that a mother’s love for her children is automatically a sympathetic thing. Cersei’s flat refusal to acknowledge that Joffrey’s behaviour is anything but unmitigated cruelty instead highlights Cersei’s own lack of empathy. Cersei��s neglect of Tommen and refusal to educate him highlights how Cersei’s ambition damages others. And yet that love still brings out intensely human moments.

When he heard Cersei's scream, he knew that it was over.

I should leave. Now. Instead he waddled toward her.

His sister sat in a puddle of wine, cradling her son's body. Her gown was torn and stained, her face white as chalk. A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse. "The boy is gone, Cersei," Lord Tywin said. He put his gloved hand on his daughter's shoulder as one of his guardsmen shooed away the dog. "Unhand him now. Let him go." She did not hear. It took two Kingsguard to pry loose her fingers, so the body of King Joffrey Baratheon could slide limp and lifeless to the floor.

- Tyrion VIII, ASoS

It was more than Cersei could stand. I cannot let them see me cry, she thought, when she felt the tears welling in her eyes. She walked past Ser Meryn Trant and out into the back passage. Alone beneath a tallow candle, she allowed herself a shuddering sob, then another. A woman may weep, but not a queen.

- Cersei III, AFFC

In AFFC, Cersei is a standout PoV. She holds down some of the central plot-moving conflicts of the book, as she well and truly shows that she is not fit for governing. The twisted method behind her actions is explained, explored, and revealed to be utterly horrifying.

Cersei has no positive relationships in her entire life. None. Her relationship with Jaime itself is breaking up, and messily, as neither of them particularly like what they’ve learned about the other, and as Cersei is unable to reconcile herself to Jaime’s disability.

Cersei laughed. "The butterfly knight who lost his arm on the Blackwater? What good is half a man?"

- Cersei VI, AFFC

She wants to consume her father’s reputation and take it for her own.

He had been a great man. I shall be greater, though. A thousand years from now, when the maesters write about this time, you shall be remembered only as Queen Cersei's sire.

- Cersei II, AFFC

And she hates all women.

Though Cersei often slept alone, she had never liked it. Her oldest memories were of sharing a bed with Jaime, when they had still been so young that no one could tell the two of them apart. Later, after they were separated, she'd had a string of bedmaids and companions, most of them girls of an age with her, the daughters of her father's household knights and bannermen. None had pleased her, and few lasted very long. Little sneaks, the lot of them. Vapid, weepy creatures, always telling tales and trying to worm their way between me and Jaime.

- Cersei VII, AFFC

Part of this is due to the prophecy she received as a young girl, which warned her of two enemies. A younger and more beautiful queen who will take everything Cersei holds dear, and the valonqar who will kill her. The first line resulted in Cersei’s obsessive hatred of first Sansa and then Margaery; the second assisted in her already ableism-influenced hatred of Tyrion.

Cersei’s hatred of other women manifests itself quite noticeably in her feud with Margaery, something that ends up rebounding on Cersei to her great detriment.

"Aye." The chains rattled softly as Osney twisted in his shackles. "That one there. She's the queen I fucked, the one sent me to kill the old High Septon. He never had no guards. I just come in when he was sleeping and pushed a pillow down across his face."

Cersei whirled, and ran.

- Cersei X, AFFC

Cersei’s arrest itself ends in one of the most memorable scenes in ADWD, when she is stripped naked and forced to march through the city while the people of King’s Landing jeer and throw things at her. It’s punishment, to be sure, but the key aspect of it is that it is not punishment for ordering the murder of a High Septon, or her abuse of her cousin Lancel, or the children she ordered killed, or the singer she had tortured in order to frame Margaery. What Cersei is marched naked through the streets is the simple ‘crime’ of having sex.

Words are wind, she thought, words cannot hurt me. I am beautiful, the most beautiful woman in all Westeros, Jaime says so, Jaime would never lie to me. Even Robert, Robert never loved me, but he saw that I was beautiful, he wanted me.

She did not feel beautiful, though. She felt old, used, filthy, ugly. There were stretch marks on her belly from the children she had borne, and her breasts were not as firm as they had been when she was younger. Without a gown to hold them up, they sagged against her chest. I should not have done this. I was their queen, but now they've seen, they've seen, they've seen. I should never have let them see. Gowned and crowned, she was a queen. Naked, bloody, limping, she was only a woman, not so very different from their wives, more like their mothers than their pretty little maiden daughters. What have I done?

- Cersei II, AFFC

We finish ADWD with Cersei recovering, supervised and in prayer, washing herself as often as she can stand - and ominously quiet. Smart money is on Cersei to do something even bigger and more destructive. Even worse, I strongly suspect that Cersei’s life, so marked by domestic abuse, will end with her murder at the hands of her ex.

Cersei Lannister, as a villain, is in my opinion the most complex and compelling GRRM’s written. Which is not to say I think his handling of her is perfect and unproblematic, or that there was nothing he might have done better. Nevertheless, Cersei represents a possible reaction to the abuses of her society, in contrast with the heroic female PoVs who suffer similar tribulations, and a different level of ability and skill in dealing with other problems. Even when Cersei’s ways of handling problems are decidedly suboptimal, recreating the problems of her society, she’s not necessarily wrong about the actual problems to start with. Every step of Cersei’s story shows the damage patriarchy has wrought on her. She’s a superior character for her hypocritical, contradictory, destructive relationship with her society and the people around her. She is not reduced to “Cersei bad because sex and woman,” but allowed to love her children in destructive ways, hold deeply problematic attitudes, and hurt other people in a misplaced belief that this is an appropriate response to her own suffering.

#ASoIaF #valyrianscrolls #cw: rape #cw: abuse #cersei lannister #a game of thrones #a clash of kings #a storm of swords #a feast for crows #a dance with dragons #this does not do cersei justice #not in the slightest

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janiedean · 5 years

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What do you think would have happened if Jaime never lost his hand? Would something in his relationship with Brienne change? Would Cersei react differently to him coming back, and would it take him longer to Realize Things if that was the case? (Sorry if you already answered asks like that!)

in order:

the main premise is that I don’t think that he had to lose the hand to make up for his wrongdoings or for karmic justice - it’s narrative karma maybe, but it’s made exceedingly clear that it wasn’t something he deserved or called for, especially because he loses it in a context where he has kind of risked in order to save brienne’s hide in both books and show, so like... I don’t think he deserved it or needed to lose it to go back to who he wanted to be because he was a perfectly good person with the hand before he enrolled in the kg, it’s not like people deserve to suffer to find the good part of themselves or redeem themselves. like, I see in a lot of places that the hand loss starts him on the new redemptive path and like....... it starts making him face all the things he didn’t want to, but it doesn’t start his redemption or anything at least imvho;

that said: as stated before, he lost it after trying to bargain with the bloody mummers after he took a fairly bad risk telling them that brienne’s virginity was worth sapphires and save her from being raped when at the same time he’s like OMG THIS ASSHOLE IT’S HER FAULT IF WE GOT CAUGHT and he could have just not done that... except he did. so like..... he was already doing the right thing and he was already giving a shit even if he didn’t even realize why. like, he still went out of his way for her;

like, I’m of the opinion that forcing those two together in the same place on their own for a long time would have made things come out and realize that they aren’t what they thought at first sight, so if he hadn’t lost the hand they still would have shared a fairly bad road trip with people who were horrible to them and they still would have bonded just differently;

like eventually I think that they’d have gotten to the same place eventually, the hand loss just sped things up;

also: he was already starting to get bothered by how brienne Was Her Knightly Self way before he lost the hand and had to start questioning himself and so on, and he already got under her skin from before, so it’s not like they couldn’t have reached that point regardless, also because at the bottom of it they get each other and want the same things;

now, what would have changed is that... like, the crux of jaime’s issues is that he uses isolation, his skills and self-deprecating sarcasm as a defense mechanism in the sense that until he has cersei/the three people he cares about and his swordsmanship he doesn’t just refuse to see he has issues or to face them, he’s in utter complete denial that he has them. like, it’s mr. I Dissociate If Things Go Bad And I’ve Done It Since I Was Fifteen If Not Earlier. but he also sees the swordsmanship as the one thing he’s good at and For Which He’s Useful, so the moment you take that away, he gets hit in the face with everything he didn’t want to deal with until that point without being able to go away inside or brush it off. if he didn’t lose that hand he might realize some of it, and if he got the same relationship with brienne or similar he still would have realized that he didn’t necessarily want what cersei did and so on, but he wouldn’t have had to face his issues that strongly. like part of the point is that he has to realize (he still hasn’t yet) that whether he has the hand or not it doesn’t change who he is or his worth and he can’t realize that if he still has it, so he’d lose that part of his arc and he wouldn’t quite get there most likely;

what would change re c. is... complicated I suppose because she wouldn’t make it obvious that she’s disgusted by his lack of hand and therefore make it obvious to him as well, but he also knew that she’d hate him looking differently from her when he looked at his reflection out of the dungeons in the beginning of asos before he lost the hand, so...... I mean, the moment he showed up in KL wanting to keep his vows and so on (because he would have, traveling with the bloody mummers even without losing the hand would have done the trick imo) she’d have gone like THE HELL ARE YOU DOING and... they’ve been separated for two years-ish, he would most likely see it. it might have taken longer to break it off, but i think that if he realized that he wanted different things he still would have gotten there eventually, just not as fast. especially if during the time apart he connected with someone else on a way deeper level than he ever connected with c. because like....... he thinks he connected with c. but eventually they don’t want the same things and have nothing in common, with brienne they have the same dreams (had them in his case) and she’s a kindred spirit on a way deeper level, and since one of his issues is that he doesn’t have connections to people that aren’t his family the moment he had one.... it would have effects on him regardless.

tldr: I think he’d have gotten to more or less the same place he’s now technically because he could have done all the good things he did without the hand even with it, the potential always was there, the problem is that I don’t think he’d have realized that all his worth resides in his (shining) personality and that he actually has the shining personality and he’s not his sister, and if he loses the hand he’s forced to confront it without being able to rely on any of his usual ways out... which in this case he would not get rid completely. like I think the hand loss is a fundamental part of his arc because it forces him to face his own issues without a way out and to rebuild himself from the (good) ground he already had up, not because it sets him on the redemptive path or because he deserved it for having done shitty things - he already had the potential, he already was doing Not Terrible Things before losing it, it’s not that he needed to lose the hand to do things that weren’t shitty. he needed to face his issues and the problem is that he has so much fucking issues/so much unpacked trauma that it was going to take an extremely traumatic event to force him to face it instead of going away inside, so like..... I think without it you’d get someone who got to the same point but without the level of self-awareness he’s reached/that he has and who might fall back on unhealthy coping methods if something goes wrong and who’d always rely on being able to kill his problems because he’s good enough that he can. like, the problem is that he should have dealt with his issues way earlier in order to not get to the point where his trauma has festered so much that it’s either that wake-up call or he can’t get to the root of it. especially because in the real world he could have gone to therapy/he might have realized it in other ways, but in westeros/his situation and with his tendency for self-isolation, either he left KL and went to the quiet isle just after killing aerys or left KL and went somewhere without traumatic memories attached to it then he could have worked through his issues early enough, but as it is? eh. I mean, again, the hand loss forces him to face his issues. but it says nothing about who he is or his relationships - he gave a shit about brienne before, he wasn’t an irredeemable asshole before, he had all the potential before, it wouldn’t have changed that. it’d have changed his relationship with his unhealthy/bad coping methods ie he could still fall back into them at any given moment because he tied them also to his swordsmanship and like.... tldr if he sees it as Why He’s Useful And The Only Good Thing He’s Good At, if he doesn’t lose the hand he never realizes that It Has Literally Nothing To Do With His Usefulness And That He Doesn’t Need It To Have Worth. like, that is what changes imo. but I don’t think it would have overall impact on how the story went, except that if grrm wants his characters with trauma to actually work through it and get over it completely and drastically he wasn’t going to go there if you see where I’m headed ;)

#jaime lannister #janie writes meta #jaime x brienne #anti-cersei lannister #anti-lannincest #anti-jaime x cersei #only slightly less toxic than chernobyl's ruins #DID I TAG EVERYTHING? HOPEFULLY #ch: jaime lannister #two cents #abuse cw #ptsd cw #Anonymous #ask post

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raggedyblue · 5 years

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WILLIAM, Sherlock,Scott, OF BASKERVILLE

Accepting the fact that Sherlock BBC is, among other things, a summa and reworking of all (let's say many because all would be honestly impossible) the previous adaptations of Doyle's creature, we cannot ignore THE NAME OF THE ROSE. Defined here (x) brilliantly a medieval AU because in other way it really couldn’t be done, considering that being a novel it is indeed a work of fiction (fiction). Furthermore, we can’t ignore how Eco was a fan of the sleuth, he wrote also essays about him and also edited a collection of pieces by various authors about the deductive method of Sherlock Holmes. The book is THE SIGN OF THREE, and this should already get our attention and I think that the Moffits have paid some attention to the Italian scholar (the book is about logic and semiotics and that are not exactly my cup of tea, so I will avoid talking about it further so as not making me more ridiculous than it normally does, but you have to know that it exists). This is to say that probably Eco himself wouldn’t be too offended by being placed among fan fiction writers. But even this in the end is totally irrelevant, because as he himself says, once a book is complete, the author disappears, and the relationship that is created is between the reader and the work. The reader is free and obliged to draw his interpretations.

Obviously THE NAME OF THE ROSE is much more than a medieval transposition of Sherlock Holmes, it is a treatise on theology, philosophy and semiotics. A compendium of medieval history and an allegory of Italy in the 1970s, a set of puzzles. The readings that can be made of the book are many and this was precisely the intention of the author.

But obviously what interests us is Sherlock Holmes (always).

The protagonist of the book is called Guglielmo/William of Baskerville. The names are important, and this is a lesson that the Moffits have learned well. Stat rosa pristina nomina, nomina nuda tenemus. We may never come to know the true essence of things, the truth maybe is unknowable, but at least we have the names and possess their knowledge. William (don’t ring a bell?) as William of Ockham . There's a lot of Ockham in Holmes's method. Occam's Razor for which for the solution of a problem the simplest solution must be applied among the existing ones, it is easily applicable to the Holmesian method. Once the impossible has been eliminated (cut off like a razor) the improbable (the complicated, implausible and unlikely solutions), even if unlikely, what remains, must be the truth. And the search of truth is a constant throughout the book, the truth about the crimes of the Abbey, but above all about the Truth as an absolute concept. A truth that, as William says, is liberty (THOB), but which escapes to the point at the end we/Adso/William are doubting its existence as an absolute concept. The William in the book is blatantly Sherlockian. English in the first place, higher than the norm, but which appears even higher as he’s very thin. He has a sharp and slightly hooked nose, his face is elongated with an expression that is both acute and alert. Very agile, endowed with inexhaustible energy in moments of activity, which alternated with others of complete immobility. We see him several times completely lost in his thoughts, with his eyes closed and his mouth following inaudible speeches. He is described as being able to remain completely still on his bed, with vacant and silent eyes for long periods. Who describes him to us wonders if by chance it was not possible that this state was induced by mysterious substances, and at least once we see Guglielmo chewing mysterious leaves that help him to think. Easily inclined to give up sleep and food if the case dictates.

He has an extraordinary delicacy of touch if necessary. He is a man capable of fantasizing about a future in which boats will be faster and will go without the strength of men or sailing, a world in which flying and submarine vehicles will exist, because the things that are not there yet are not said not there will be. I would venture, not even that much, and call him a man out of his time.

A normally mild man, he can become brusque and often, to bring an interrogation to a successful end, he takes advantage of a moment of weakness for the interrogated. This is one of those traits that I don't remember being canonical but that we certainly see in Sherlock BBC.

At talking about him is his young disciple, his blogger scribe. All we know of William and the affairs of the Abbey we know thanks to a manuscript that speaks of a manuscript which is then the manuscript of William's disciple. How many holmesian pastiche use the expedient of the rediscovered manuscript? I lost the calculation. This young disciple is called wADSOn, he looks to his teacher with affection and unspeakable wonder, and with his observations that seem irrelevant leads Guglielmo on the way to solution (light conductor). He admits that once his master gives an explanation of his deductions, everything seems so clear that he regrets not having understud it alone. The function of Aso from the poetic point of view is to put a distance between the author and what is narrated. It is not the author who writes the story, but a young Benedictine from the 1300s. The narrator is young and still unaware and amazed at the things of the world, so when he tells about them he doesn't do it in a didactic tone, but as if it were something new for he as it is for us. Adso records events without completely understanding them, and this helps the less educated reader (I believe 98%) to navigate between these complex pages. If there is something he doesn't understand, it is probably something that Adso did not understud before him. This kind of trick is the same one used by Doyle that through Watson allows us to understand how the mind of Holmes works, step by step. This does not mean that wADSOn is stupid, on the contrary, only that he is learning. It doesn't even seem a coincidence that William is a monk. A man who has chosen to dedicate himself to the intellect, repressing and suppressing everything that is carnal. Adso is young, still impulsive and inexperienced, and will yield to the temptations of the flesh (once only).

A curious feature of Guglielmo is that, having now at least fifty years and presumably being presbyopic, he uses glasses, an unusual object for the time. It could be nothing but I like to read it a reference to Doyle as an ophtalmologist. And in a narrative space the glasses are lost and the monk finds himself unable to read. We can say that this is a moment in which he sees, but can't observe. William reads the signs of reality to look for possible truths. In the first moment when we meet him he deduces the existence of a horse from simple signs left in the woods, he is actually a detective. But in his life he was also an Inquisitor, a position he left. We see him in the book confronting an inquisitor Bernardo Gui and we see the difference in attitude. The inquisitor is more interested in punishing the defendants, while Guglielmo wants to discover the culprits, "unraveling a beautiful and tangled skein". The same attitude that we see in Holmes that always looks a little beyond what the police do and absolute justice does has more value than secular justice. In his search for truth, Guglielmo says that no hypothesis, even if extraordinary, should be overlooked. He himself tells that he aligns many elements that apparently have no connection and makes assumptions about them. But to arrive at a solution, he has to pretend many hypotheses, some so absurd that he is ashamed to tell them. The elimination of the impossible by staging. This sounds a lot like MInd Theater, doesn't it? Among the other references to the Canon, the most obvious is the use of a burned plant that creates visions. There is also a moment in which Guglielmo states that God must be good if he generated nature. Holmes will instead say that nature, its beauty (a rose!) Is proof of the existence of God (BRUC). The story of the novel unfolds inside an Abbey on the top of a hill. Inside the walls, barely contained, overlooking the rocks there is a construction called the Aedificium. It is divided into three parts. There is the Kitchen, the Scriptorium and the Library. An absolutely symbolic place. The kitchen is the body, it satisfies the needs, it prepares food but it is also the place where a carnal congress is consumed (food / sex metaphor). The Scriptorium is the space of intellect, of knowledge. The Library instead is conceived as a labyrinth, a place where knowledge is kept, but at the same time it is made inaccessible. Something very similar to the unconscious, which in the BBC Sherlock we see buried under the ground, while here it stands out against the sky (like a plane maybe). The curious thing is the shape of the building, built on a rigid symbolic and mathematical basis, it looks like this:

We find a similar shape both in the Mind Palace (Moriarty's cell and probably operating theater) and in Baskerville.

In the Library the books that are the sum of human, licit and illicit knowledge are jealously guarded, in fact the librarian reserves the right to keep some of them hidden. A structure that seems very similar to the human psyche, to the eternal struggle between conscious and unconscious thought, between memories and removed that in BBC Sherlock seems to be recurrent. The relationship between master and disciple is among the most platonic and there seems to be no doubt in this regard. Adso loves Guglielmo, loves his intellect but also his features, he argues in the purest way (not that the admiration imbued with sexuality cannot be pure, this is a heavy Catholic heritage from which we have not yet freed ourselves, but it is a meta for another time), but also he need to clarify unnecessarily the concept and in later life he will confess to let the gaze linger longer on the young novices.

Guglielmo on his part is never if not paternal regard to Adso. Their relationship, however, seems weaker than that between the two original characters that inspired them, but that was probably not the point of the novel. This doesn't mean that the issue of homosexuality is not treated. If we want we can also say that all the dead involved had had homosexual relations and all had somehow had had to do with a forbidden book. The story takes place inside a convent, the characters involved are all men, apart from an external exception, feminine, which will seduce Adso, even if this fact is susceptible to interpretative doubts. Being a faithful chronicle of the times, homosexual relations are doomed, but after all even heterosexual ones it's just condoned. We are talking about friars. But if heterosexual relations are tolerated, they are part of heterodoxy, homosexual ones are decidedly condemned, like heretics. It is no wonder that in so many heresies sodomy is an integral part. It falls within the fear and condemnation of the different, the different is a heretic, the homosexual is different, homosexuality is heresy. An easy syllogism. In the name of the Rose the feminine is ephemeral. There is this unique beautiful girl with whom Adso will be joining the same night he had previously had an apparently innocent encounter with a friar. We see she only for a fleeting moment. The feminine seems to be an allegory of all that is seductive. Devilishly seductive because we are among men for whom the pleasures of the flesh are a weakness.

Friar Ubertino, the one with whom Adso meets before giving in to the girl's flattery, speaks with desire of the forms of the virgin Mary, but he does so by holding the young Adso to himself. Every time a friar, which will then be indulged in homosexual pleasures, is described to us, a feminine characteristic is added to him. The feminine is not something that exists in this context, but desire, love, jealousy, in its best and worst aspects, yes. And all this is represented, but only allegorically by the feminine. Besides, Adso will tell about the girl that he didn't even know her name. One wonders if he didn't know it or maybe he just didn't dare to name it. The debate between orthodoxy and heresy runs through the whole book. It is a mainstay. And if under a pure textual meaning we can read an other, political, one (the Italian Brigate Rosse as heretics) a further level of reading is possible, halfway between the subtext and the surface. Then again the relationship between homosexuality and heresy. And heretics were burned. Adso tells that he experienced a state similar to ecstasy in witnessing the burning of an heretic, an ecstasy that reminds him the fleshly one that he will then experience firsthand. A connection that amazes the friar himself, but that tells us a lot about the real nature of what he lived.

Guglielmo's antagonist is an old blind man who will eventually lead to the destruction of the Library. Their relationship is love and hate, admiration and repulsion. Difficult not to see the Moriaty / Holmes relationship. Towards the end we see the same old man in the middle of the Library which is actually a labyrinth, a labyrinth that is described as a web. Throughout the book the two tease, provoke themselves, do a dance that has a lot of seduction. All caused by a book that the old man wanted to keep secret and when this was no longer possible the Library ended up on fire before the water managed to extinguish its flames. "Guglielmo wept". (water/emotions). The theme of the book is the laughter. It refers to a hypothetical lost Aristotle's book concerning the Comedy. In short the meaning of the book is that laughter has its own dignity, its cognitive value. Comedy, the comedian, saying things differently, ridiculing them, forces us to look at them more carefully, and we end up seeing the hidden truth. At the same time, even the most fearful things, when turned into comedy, lose their terrifying power. Laughter free from fear (and it is the main reason why it is feared) The thought is immediately at every moment when John and Sherlock are represented as homosexuals in BBC Sherlock. These are always jokes, ridiculous moments. But as we are told in the fictitious book in The Name of the Rose, laughter conceals the truth. A book in a book that talks about books, because, it is repeated several times, all books speak of other books, each book is a reference to a previous book and from obvious books it is possible to arrive at occult books. As if to say that to understand a book it is enough to have another one. London AZ for Sherlock and our still unknown book. Unknown probably because not unique. A set of books (code booKs), but just because Sherlock Holmes has left the sphere of books and has expanded himself into other media. The Name of the Rose is a book about books, a complex labyrinth of intertextual quotations, but also a use manual of books. The books are something that involves the author and the text in the first place, but once it's finished, the relationship is the one that is established between the reader and the text. And the texts are meant to be interpreted. "Books are not meant to be believed but to be subjected to investigation. In front of a book we must not ask ourselves what it says, but what it means ... the letter must be discussed even if the supersense remains good. " *I humbly apologize but I don't have a reference text in English, so this is a horrid, as usual for me, translation of the perfect Eco's Italian (sooner or later I will learn English .... maybe when I won't lose so much time on a certain author ;-P) A licence for those like us who want to go beyond the visible, the admission that a text is more of what appears, which is susceptible to generate always different readings without ever running itself out completely. And this is true for some books more than for others, because in some the subtext presses towards the surface, barely contained by metaphors, mirrors and allegories. Since ancient times methods for expressing truth. Metaphors, puzzles, word games, which sometimes seem put in a text out of pure delight, often hide truths that want to be kept silent, for various reasons, to most people. A book on books that talk about books hidden in books, books that hide the truth under layers of words. A book about a medieval Sherlock Holmes and rarely the universe is so lazy.

@sarahthecoat @possiblyimbiassed @gosherlocked @ebaeschnbliah @sagestreet

#the name of the rose #sherlock reference #code books

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shoujosoulsearching · 6 years

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Mars, AKA The Shoujo Manga with Too Much Emotional Baggage for One Woman to Carry

SPOILER WARNING!!!

The Roman god of war, Mars, was said to love violence and conflict--he was known as the embodiment of bloodthirst. Unlike his Greek counterpart Ares, however, who was considered to be more destructive in nature, Mars was seen as more of a protector, a bringer of peace.

With a title like Mars, one has to wonder what side of the Roman god is going to be showcased in the story: the bloodthirsty divine or the righteous guardian? For a shoujo manga, you’d expect it to go the latter, but upon reading Fuyumi Souryo’s fifteen-volume teenage melodrama, the answer to that question turns out to be much more complicated than you think.

The actual story itself has nothing to do with the literal god named Mars--he’s only explicitly shown in the first volume as a statue, which our playboy prince charming, Rei Kashino, approaches and kisses on the mouth. Kira Aso, our introverted and artistic leading lady, is infatuated with this sight and asks Rei to become a model for her to sketch during her free time. From that moment onwards, their relationship blossoms, and they both bring out things in each other that would have never been brought to the surface if they had never met.

While it has its fair amount of stereotypes what sets Mars apart from its contenders is the way the main couple is portrayed. Rei and Kira are individually appealing characters, and their qualities are only enhanced as they grow closer throughout the story.

Our leading man Rei is the first character that truly jumps off the page from the get-go. A motorcycle-riding playboy who couldn’t care less about school, Rei’s a boy with deep-rooted issues and a devil-may care attitude. He has an unmeasurable sense of justice, and while he has a sense of morality, he won’t always uphold it when the situation tests him. If he gets a bad feeling from someone, he will immediately turn to hostility--but only when the event pertains to something he wants, or something he cares about. He understands what the “right” thing to do is, but he doesn’t care. As long as he isn’t stopped by Kira or someone else’s plea, he will fix the problem in a way that satisfies him.

This type of violent behavior would usually be associated with a sociopath, but upon further inspection that turns out to not be the case. Most of Rei’s questionable actions come from a post-conventional reasoning, and it’s apparent that whenever he acts out it’s because he’s either been deeply hurt by something in the past or he’s afraid to lose what he cherishes in the present. I’m not at all justifying his actions, but the point is that Rei has never been a true monster, and whatever monstrous aspects he had to him were eventually blurred away by Kira (who was the first person to ever love him that wasn’t incredibly toxic.)

The main difference between a sociopath like Masao Kirishima and someone like Rei, is that Rei is just a teenager who’s been hurt one too many times and only knows how to self medicate using violence. He had never been policed for his actions in a proper way. As we learn in the last volume, his memories were altered during his time in the psychiatric ward to lessen his trauma. Once you look beyond his blunt and aggressive exterior, Rei is the most genuine character in the entire series. He’s just a teenage boy that’s been through too much hardship that he never deserved, and was never emotionally mature enough to handle all of it. He’s rightfully angry at the world--until he meets Kira.

It took time for our heroine to shine like her male counterpart did, but a few volumes in, Kira becomes a show-stopping character. Originally an immovable introvert only interested in painting and nothing else, Kira grows into her own loving, hopeful person. One of the things I appreciated the most about Mars was it’s portrayal of mental illness--nothing is never outwardly said, but it’s obvious that Kira had been going through not only anxiety but a deep, dark depression she can’t bring herself back from. The way Kira thought about death, the way she always put others needs before her own, etc, made her real and relatable to me on a personal level. I’ve had those same issues my entire life, and seeing Kira slowly and surely come into her own throughout each volume wasn’t just satisfying, was inspiring.

The most tantalizing reveal about Kira and why she acts the way she does is when we learn that she was raped by her stepfather in middle school. Not only did she start isolating herself after the incident, she began to live in her head, where a more sinister, damaged and unhinged Kira would imagine killing herself and those around her. This is an extremely serious subject to dive into--and Mars doesn’t cover up the darkness behind it. It’s not romanticized, it’s ugly and depressing, and the worst part is that we never get the feeling that Kira will ever fully recover from it. Yes, she learns to become intimate with Rei because she trusts him--but it’s implied that in the deepest, darkest parts of her soul, that horrible memory will continue to live on.

The first thing that struck me, and my favorite aspect of the entire series, was how genuine the relationship between Rei and Kira felt--several times in the story there’d be a break where they would just talk, and not talk as in they’d tell each other things that would move the plot forward, or with a clear purpose in mind--they have actual conversations. They talk about each other’s hobbies, about their existential crises, things that actual teenagers talk to each other about. With every heart-to-heart comes another glimpse into who these two are as people, and it becomes apparent that they cherish and remember every word they say to each other. It’s clear that these two characters grow because of each other, and turn one another into the best versions of themselves. They’re honest and authentic with each other in ways only adolescents can be. As two teenagers who’ve never had anyone to be their shoulder to cry on, their relationship just feels right, and their marriage at the end of the series is one of the most wholesome and satisfying things I’ve read in a shoujo manga.

Up until now I’ve sung praises to Mars for the two main characters and their dynamic, but unfortunately, besides a few exceptions, the rest of the characters in the series are either uninteresting, unlikable or just straight up garbage human beings. To keep it short, just seeing Shiori, Kurosawa or Harumi on every panel would get me peeved. Masao Kirishima was the last straw for me, however; once I got deep enough into his arc I ended up putting down the series for a few days, because I couldn’t stand his presence (not to mention the ONLY canonically LGBT character just HAD to be an evil psychopath who wanted to kill people for pleasure…..REALLY……) but I’ll throw in a head-canon saying that these characters only exist for me to appreciate the main couple more (which it did) so I could look over it.

By far Mars’ biggest problem is it’s tone. Soap operas can be fun, don’t get me wrong, and there are plenty of times where Mars gets it right--but also plenty of times where it becomes overbearing. The series was probably best to read week by week when it was being released in Bessatsu Friend magazine; it’s not hard to imagine Souryo stuffing in enough melodrama in each chapter before it’s release in order to keep reader’s interest. Marathon-reading it is very much a different experience. And it doesn’t help that It’s clear that this is a product of its time. A lot of popular shoujo manga in the 90s tended to stretch the drama, i.e. the insane level of bullying, the evil side characters insisting on keeping the main couple apart, etc.

Using an example from Mars, Rei reveals he used to have a brother, who is actually dead, and when Kira asks how he died, before Rei can answer, a man jumps off a building and the police are called. Rei has a panic attack after seeing this, and it’s implied that his brother died from suicide. Then, we go back to the high school where it’s revealed that a character named Kurosawa also attempted suicide, and is currently getting treatment. Then Rei and Kira go out on a date. ALL IN ONE CHAPTER. If you got exhausted reading that, try reading that page-to-page in one sitting. It was entertaining, sure, but it took me out of the immersion every now and again.

I can shit on these aspects as much as I want, but without them, Mars wouldn’t be Mars. It’s apart of its charm, in an odd way, and it only enhances everything the series does right. At times, it’s as if Mars is drowning you in it’s depressing conflict and weighing you down with it’s emotional baggage, enjoying every second of your agony--but in the end it always comes back around, making wrongs rights and surprising you with its tenderness. That’s why I think this manga has the perfect title. I doubt Fuyumi Souryo intended for this, but in its own roundabout way, I believe Mars is an allegory for the Roman god, and a good one that you definitely shouldn’t miss out on.

And I’m giving this one a STAR rating.

(Check out my other manga analyses here, and my standards here.)

(Follow me on twitter @/choerrychrist)

#shoujo #shoujo manga #shoujo caps #mangacaps #screencaps #shoujo screencap #shoujo notes #shoujo anime #mars #mars manga #90s anime #anime #star rating #rei #kira #my review

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bitchfromtheseventhhell · 7 years

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@insomniarama got the ask below and she punted it my way:

i’m guessing from context clues your ask is about the show. i’m gonna hit you with book stuff so sorry if that’s to the side of your question (i’m not actually sorry this was super fun to write).

part of what’s fun about this ask is that it’s not just about the old gods, while also being entirely about the old gods. there’s a lot of religious intermixing going on, but there’s that constant undercurrent of the old gods of the north in arya’s heart and experience.

Arya went to her knees. She wasn't sure how she should begin. She clasped her hands together. Help me, you old gods, she prayed silently. Help me get those men out of the dungeon so we can kill Ser Amory, and bring me home to Winterfell. Make me a water dancer and a wolf and not afraid again, ever.

Was that enough? Maybe she should pray aloud if she wanted the old gods to hear. Maybe she should pray longer. Sometimes her father had prayed a long time, she remembered. But the old gods had never helped him. Remembering that made her angry. "You should have saved him," she scolded the tree. "He prayed to you all the time. I don't care if you help me or not. I don't think you could even if you wanted to."

"Gods are not mocked, girl."

The voice startled her. She leapt to her feet and drew her wooden sword. Jaqen H'ghar stood so still in the darkness that he seemed one of the trees. "A man comes to hear a name. One and two and then comes three. A man would have done." (Arya IX, ACOK)

this passage captures so much with so little and it’s honestly incredible. you have:

arya, frightened, praying to the old gods

arya, a little girl, who doesn’t know if she’s praying the right way--complicated further by the fact that this religion is one that is not an organized religion. just you and the gods, and the person who taught her about that religion in her multifaith household was her father.

her father, who the old gods couldn’t save.

her father, who died on the steps of a sept.

this couples interestingly with her mother, who observed the faith of the seven in her multifaith household--who was the reason her household was multifaith--dying and being resurrected by a prayer to the lord of light.

which will likely matter tremendously in arya’s coming arc in twow/ados

and, when she berates the gods

someone

who has devoted himself to one god (the many faced god)

who arya will, in turn, one day begin “learning” from/about

and whose temple has a weirwood face in it

while pretending to devote himself to another god (the lord of light)

the faith that will resurrect her mother in the next book (and also jon snow in twow lbr here)

comes and tells her that “the gods are not mocked.”

like holy damn right there that’s a lot of religious connections all in one short passage.

add into that arya doesn’t refer to her repeated “weese, dunsen, chiswyck, raff the sweetling, the tickler, the hound, ser gregor, ser amory, ser meryn, king joffrey, queen cersei,” as her nightly prayer on multiple occasions.

add in the following level:

She slashed at birch leaves till the splintery point of the broken broomstick was green and sticky. "Ser Gregor," she breathed. "Dunsen, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling." She spun and leapt and balanced on the balls of her feet, darting this way and that, knocking pinecones flying. "The Tickler," she called out one time, "the Hound," the next. "Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei." The bole of an oak loomed before her, and she lunged to drive her point through it, grunting "Joffrey, Joffrey, Joffrey." Her arms and legs were dappled by sunlight and the shadows of leaves. A sheen of sweat covered her skin by the time she paused. The heel of her right foot was bloody where she'd skinned it, so she stood one-legged before the heart tree and raised her sword in salute. "Valar morghulis," she told the old gods of the north. She liked how the words sounded when she said them. (Arya X, ACOK)

this nightly prayer--and even that valar morghulis--is a dedication to the old gods. arya’s nightly list, after all, is a call for justice, and for what’s right, so her dedicating it to the gods of her father makes sense. but i think that’s something that frequently gets lost in arya’s list: that it’s not just the wrongs she’s seen, it’s an act of dedication to fixing the wrongs of the world. it is, in its own way, a holy act--not because killing is holy--but because arya has dedicated that prayer to the old gods of the north by connecting them to that “valar morghulis.”

i think that’s part of the issue: as i mentioned, the faith of the old gods of the north is not one that’s organized in the sense that it doesn’t have prayer books and religious leaders. it’s just got practice and those practices, it’s implied from bran’s visions in adwd which definitely involved human sacrifice, have changed and likely will continue to change over time. it is, as we learn in adwd, a religion that’s based on greensight and providing greenseers with knowledge, which is why there’s an emphasis on praying before the heart tree: you’re providing your thoughts and information to the “gods” that they might take that information and, potentially, guide the world to resolve (or exacerbate) the issue. however, because of what we know, greenseers aren’t gods, they’re men, which means that, fundamentally, the religion--as all religions are to an extent--is as much about an individual’s beliefs and practices as it is about what the religion was established to do in the first place and that’s where things get interesting for arya.

it’s clear that the old gods mean a lot to arya, especially in her early books. she thinks of them far more than she thinks of the seven, despite having been raised by a septa (though given her relationship with septa mordane, this doesn’t surprise me at all) and that she was raised by a mother who observed the seven and actively felt uncomfortable in the godswood of winterfell. she certainly believes in them enough to hold them accountable for their failures, specifically their failure to save her father from joffrey and ser ilyn.

and, given what happens to her father and at the red wedding, and--as far as she knows--to bran and rickon at theon’s hands, it shakes her faith:

The old gods are dead, she told herself, with Mother and Father and Robb and Bran and Rickon, all dead. A long time ago, she remembered her father saying that when the cold winds blow the lone wolf dies and the pack survives. He had it all backwards. Arya, the lone wolf, still lived, but the wolves of the pack had been taken and slain and skinned. (Arya I, AFFC)

but here’s the thing--arya doesn’t let things go. not ever. she holds onto pain from her first chapter in the whole series, and she holds onto memories of injustices and refuses to allow others to try and sway her memory. so yeah, she can tell herself that she thinks that the old gods are dead, she can even hold them accountable for their failures to protect her family and those whom she loves. she can even believe, as the passage above implies, that they died along with the rest of her family, but in the very next chapter, you have:

Polliver had stolen the sword from her when the Mountain's men took her captive, but when she and the Hound walked into the inn at the crossroads, there it was. The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father's gods, the old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can't have this. (Arya II, AFFC)

like ok--she may think the old gods might be dead, but that entire passage is about her soldiering on, her feeling extreme pain at being the “lone wolf” and being “packless.” and the thing about the first passage is that it’s fundamentally false: the old gods aren’t dead (such as they were ever alive), and nor too are bran, or rickon, or sansa, or jon. she is not the lone wolf: she’s just off on her own and is going to be reunited with her pack. her isolation shakes her faith, sure, but so much of what’s happened to her generally has shaken her tremendously--the red wedding is an easy example of that. but i read the first passage as disillusionment with what she thought the old gods should be doing, not with what the old gods might still do for her; it’s also disillusionment with what the old gods might have done for those she loves, which she sees as what they’ve done for her--but i don’t think that that’s all of what they have done for her. after all, she doesn’t throw away needle. needle is jon snow’s smile--something the old gods wanted her to have.

and, on top of that, in twow, we have this:

Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran. (mercy, twow)

those wolf dreams she has starting in asos, the dreams where she’s warging into nymeria from afar--if you have a fairly passive religion that’s based on whether or not greenseers are watching you and taking the knowledge you give them and implementing it--to have a tree be watching her wolf is a major religious deal in her faith. it’s not only about whether or not she has faith in the gods--it’s about whether the gods have chosen her--and they have. that much is clear from acok, if not earlier:

"But there is no pack," she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan."

"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."

"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth. (Arya X, ACOK)

the old gods are literally whispering to her in this scene, telling her to be strong, reminding her she has the wolf blood. it’s important: they’re speaking to her here. and she hears them. and she acts.

so all this is to say that religion in arya’s story is complicated, but that there is this constant pulsing undercurrent of this old faith in the north--both in how she acts, how she thinks, how things matter to her, and in what they expect of her in the future and what they’re keeping an eye on her for.

#arya stark #insomniarama #meta #arya meta #this got away from me a bit but are you surprised by that really?#ok i really should do my job now lmao

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shinylitwick94 · 7 years

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Reread A Clash of Kings. Not as good as the first book, but that had been my initial impression too, the first time I read it. I’m going to go into a little bit more detail here.

THERE WILL BE POTENTIAL SPOILERS for all the books, the Dunk and Egg novellas, the show, the WOIAF, TWOW sample chapters, etc.

This book drags for me, for some reason. It doesn’t drag as badly as I remember AFFC and ADWD dragging, but it still drags. Makes sense, since a lot of it is setting things up for ASOS, but it is noticeably slower than AGOT.

Once again, the sheer volume of things I missed on the first read is staggering. I barely cared about the Riverlands plotlines or Jon the first time around, so the only things I had semi clear memories of were the King’s Landing chapters, Dany’s chapters and the Winterfell chapters. And even then I pretty much missed half of what is going on.

I think a lot of this is down to the sheer amount of secondary and tertiary characters that actually do matter in these novels. The first time I read this I had no idea who the Freys, the Boltons and all of the other secondary houses were, no clue who half of the courtiers in King’s Landing were, no idea which smaller lords where on Robb’s side, or Tywin’s or Stannis’ or Renlys’. Oddly enough, in contrast with ADWD, I did remember most of the characters from Dany’s plotline and even their names and what they were doing. It was the Westerosi secondary characters I had no interest in. And that meant that things like Cat’s chapters in Riverrun or Arya’s entire plot became completely irrelevant to me. I think the only characters from Arya’s plot that I remembered with any sort of clarity were Gendry and Hot Pie. Everyone else was just a blur of sigils and names and loyalties.

Of course, actually knowing who these people are made rereading those chapters a lot more enjoyable. Especially once you start just how interconnected all of our plot threads are and you can see the beginnings of the Red Wedding(and the Purple one too), or understand what is actually going on during the battle of the Blackwater - as opposed to just thinking I get it - THEY FIGHT - now tell me who wins already. So this part I certainly found a lot more rewarding. I’m pretty sure I talked about it when I reviewed AGOT, but I did feel like it was more noticeable in ACOK.

The plotlines I enjoyed best in this book were pretty much the same I had enjoyed the first time I read this. I liked the King’s Landing stuff, I liked Dany’s chapters, I really liked Theon and I also enjoyed Davos a lot more.

I do think adding Davos and Theon as POV here was absolutely necessary, but the POV issue is going to start snowballing hard in the next books and I’m not entirely sure if all of those additions gave us something we couldn’t have learned via raven.

Theon is definitely my favorite of the two new POVs. Davos is wonderful, but Theon is such a marvelous mess. And, of course, you get to see the whole Ramsay thing with hindsight.

This is also where GRRM starts slowing down his pace and writing in (occasional) filler chapters, namely in Arya’s storyline. I enjoyed Arya’s story a lot more this time than I did the first, since I actually understood wtf was going on, but I don’t think we needed 10 chapters to tell her story. I think a handful could have been quite easily condensed, parts of it even cut without the story suffering too much. The problem is still in its initial stages here, but this is the first time I actually looked at a chapter in these books and went “we didn’t need that at all”. It would be far less of a problem if I didn’t know it was going to get a lot worse really quickly.

Moving on to the topic of Jon/Dany/Tyrion, whom I complain about endlessly.

Cut for length.

Jon’s chapters are up there with Arya’s for being my least favorite ones in this book. The main issue here being that they’re just really, really slow and practically nothing happens. They leave the Wall, pass by Crasters’, Jon finds the dragonglass at the Fist of the First Men, Jon leaves with Qohorin and co, Jon joins the wildlings at the end. I know for some people that is a lot, or at least enough, but for me the whole thing just feels kinda meh. GRRM takes a looong time to describe every mountain wood and river north of the Wall and I’m just not that interested. It’s snowy and cold and inhospitable, we get it, no need to go over it fifty times. And most of the characters in the NW I’m just not that attached to - I can remember Mormont, Sam, Grenn, Pyp, Donal Noye, Edd and that’s about it. All the others just sort of blur together. Which, in the case of Jon “betraying” Qohorin, means that I don’t particularly feel for either of them, I just don’t know who Qohorin is and feel no reason to care about him at all. And then Jon’s narration is for the most part fairly stoic and monotone, which I can understand from a character perspective, but doesn’t really help me. All of this put together makes Jon’s chapters indescribably boring to me and this is probably the point in the series when I started actively dreading Jon’s chapters. I will note, however, that contrary to my initial impression, it’s not Jon that’s boring, just the way his story is being told.

Dany’s chapters are an interesting case for me, because I feel like a lot of what I said about Jon’s story could also be said about her. But the thing is, in the earlier Dany chapters there is a very strong sense of urgency pushing things onward and while the Qarth chapters also drag a bit, they’re also the series’ first major “big different sort of oriental city” moment, which is a lot more visually interesting to me at least than rocks and snow. There’s also a lot fewer of them, which I think is a good thing, since it means that whenever you’re with Dany, something happens - we have 5 Dany chapters to 8 Jon chapters and 15 Tyrion chapters in this. Qarth is also where we see the House of the Undying, which I really enjoyed and meet Quaithe and her creepy prophecies/advice, all of which ties in to the rest of the story and makes it feel less isolated even if she is half a planet away. And of course the arrival of “Arstan” is a lot funnier on a reread, especially since you notice just how many times characters (mostly Renly) point out that Barristan is nowhere to be found and “must have a king to serve”. Is Qarth still a little needlessly complicated? Yep. Unless we see Qarth again, there was no need whatsoever to create six different factions in that city (The Thirteen, Spicers, the whatever Brotherhood, the Pureborn, the warlocks/Undying, Quaithe). I get that part of that is worldbuilding, but it’s also super confusing. Fortunately most names are pronounceable here. So I did enjoy Dany this time.

ACOK is Tyrion’s finest hour. It’s the one where he’s in charge, making decisions, mostly good ones, helping save King’s Landing, calling Joffrey and Cersei out, etc. The result of this is that despite having so many chapters, nearly all of them matter. I do think one or two of them could have been condensed, but it doesn't feel like an issue because he’s doing stuff all the time and it’s stuff that matters, because he matters. He’s also close to other interesting characters, like Joff, Cersei, the members of the small council and Sansa, who the reader is already invested in, which again make his chapters feel a lot more lively. Essentially this is the Tyrion that everyone knows and loves and the Tyrion even I can appreciate without feeling guilty about it.

In ACOK we are introduced to a bunch of new characters, or at least characters we’d heard of before but never seen, like Stannis and his crew, the Tyrells, the Greyjoys, Ramsay and our first real wildlings. It makes the world feel a lot bigger and a lot more impressive, but it’s also harder to keep up with everything going on at the same time.

This is also where things take the first really unexpected turn downhill for the Starks, Ned’s death aside. I was completely shocked and horrified at Theon’s actions here the first time, and I still wanted to throw him inside a vat of acid during the reread, even knowing what’s coming for him. I also feel like the fall of Winterfell is a lot less foreshadowed than the Red Wedding. You have a million pieces set up in this book(and maybe even AGOT?) leading up to that. The fall of Winterfell comes out of nowhere and is pure Theon being an ass. I felt that this, combined with the darkness of Cat and Arya’s chapters made this book feel a lot more depressing than the first one.

Favorite POV: Tyrion, there’s no stealing that from him this time. Theon is also pretty impressive, for different reasons.

Least favorite POV:Jon, for the reasons above. Arya’s a close second, but the reread made those more enjoyable

Favorite scene: Renly’s peach. The only thing that saddens me is that the show thought of “is he a ham?” and GRRM didn’t. I also really enjoyed the House of the Undying.

Favorite character: Theon, for being such a wonderful little shit. Followed by Arya. Her chapters may drag, but she’s still a joy to read.

Least favorite character: Tough to say. Let’s go with Tywin. I really didn’t realize how much shit he put the people of the Riverlands through the first time.

#shinylitwick reads books #acok #asoiaf #spoilers #a clash of kings

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agentrouka-blog · 4 years

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Hey! Wat your opinion on Jon not giving a thought on Sansa supposed marriage to Tyrion but actually dwell on how he trusted Tyrion n can't accept him killing his father. While Sansa comes to know about Jon being LC she thought how it would be sweet but Jon not once thinking about her marriage n supposed allegation about kinslaying. Yes she is far from him then but he could actually give a thought about how is she. Even Arya thought it'd stupid for Sansa to marry n kill the king.

The way he thinks of Tyrion is actually a pretty interesting thing.

I get longwinded.

After Tyrion departs the Wall, Jon thinks well of him:

He could think here, and he found himself thinking of Samwell Tarly … and, oddly, of Tyrion Lannister. He wondered what Tyrion would have made of the fat boy. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, the dwarf had told him, grinning. The world was full of cravens who pretended to be heroes; it took a queer sort of courage to admit to cowardice as Samwell Tarly had. (AGOT, Jon IV)

He actively remembers him, even considers his advice, like he is a mentor to him.

"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen. "My lord, what of my sisters? Arya and Sansa, they were with my father, do you know—" (AGOT, Jon VII)

He finds it easy to take his side over Catelyn’s, no questions asked. (Boy, dude, I get why, but that’s some serious bias there, Jon. Calm the hell down.) But here, Tyrion is a “friend to him”.

Still, from that point on it’s crickets chirping with regard to Tyrion. Likely, the fact that the Lannisters are waging war on his family does have some effect on Jon’s fondness for Tyrion.

"Who was your mother?"

"Some woman. Most of them are." Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who. (ACOK, Jon VI)

It had been Tyrion. Pretty telling when you consider how eager he was to contemplate his advice earlier. He doesn’t remember, i.e. probably has blocked out who said it.

"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.

"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king. (AGOT, Jon I)

So, a brief flicker of memory and then it’s silence on the subject for two entire books.

This is the first and only time Jon thinks of Tyrion again:

"It is not my intent to choose any side," said Jon, "but I am not as certain of the outcome of this war as you seem to be, my lord. Not with Lord Tywin dead." If the tales coming up the kingsroad could be believed, the King's Hand had been murdered by his dwarf son whilst sitting on a privy. Jon had known Tyrion Lannister, briefly. He took my hand and named me friend. It was hard to believe the little man had it in him to murder his own sire, but the fact of Lord Tywin's demise seemed to be beyond doubt. "The lion in King's Landing is a cub, and the Iron Throne has been known to cut grown men to ribbons." (ADWD, Jon III)

“He named me friend.” That’s a marked difference to “he had been a friend to him”. He “had known him briefly”. That’s quite distancing. The friendship, the entire relationship is regarded with a cool, retrospective distance. Jon is much more mature and he certainly has reason to think of Tyrion as an object of extreme ambivalence. So he most certainly does not dwell on the fact that he trusts Tyrion.

Still, you are right. Jon never actively thinks about the fact that this dude is theoretically his brother-in-law. Married to his sister.

What does Jon think about Sansa’s suffering and marriage and disappearance? We don’t have a clue.

He doesn’t directly think about Sansa’s plight in KL at all beyond one brief flicker in the very beginning:

That flicker and Jon’s general attitude toward Sansa, though, tells us that he most certainly cares. He simply avoids the thought.

From that point on, Jon mentions Sansa exactly 8 times in the span of four books.

Once in contemplation of breathtaking natural beauty:

So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he'd dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all. (ACOK, Jon III)

Once in the context of courtly treatment of ladies:

"That's pretty." He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name. (ACOK, Jon III)

Once enumerated with the rest of his family to Mance Rayder in stark contrast to his own bastard status (ASOS, Jon I):

“Then you saw us all. Prince Joffrey and Prince Tommen, Princess Myrcella, my brothers Robb and Bran and Rickon, my sisters Arya and Sansa. You saw them walk the center aisle with every eye upon them and take their seats at the table just below the dais where the king and queen were seated.” “I remember.” “And did you see where I was seated, Mance?” He leaned forward. “Did you see where they put the bastard?” (ASOS, Jon I)

Once in terms of her claim to Winterfell, guilt and devastating loss:

Winterfell would go to Robb and then his sons, or to Bran or Rickon should Robb die childless. And after them came Sansa and Arya. Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them . . . I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did. And now there's only me. (ASOS, Jon XI)

One unnamed, indirect mention, that again implies he considers her to be dead.

“Gods, wolf, where have you been?” Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. “I thought you’d died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I’ve had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.” (ASOS, Jon XII)

So let it sink in that Jon refuses to take Sansa’s birthright even when he thinks she may well be dead.

He mentions her again in terms of her claim to Winterfell, where he blatantly doesn’t react to the fact that she was married to Tyrion, but it is implied this was something he has discussed with Stannis, or would have things to say about.

“By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa.” “Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father’s seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow.” Jon knew better than to press the point. (ADWD, Jon I)

Jon knows better because this is something they do more than once. More than we are shown. GRRM is intentionally hiding the details of Jon’s thoughts.

“(...) Which would you have as Lord of Winterfell, Snow? The smiler or the slayer?"

Jon said, "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa."

"I have heard all I need to hear of Lady Lannister and her claim." The king set the cup aside. “You could bring the north to me. Your father’s bannermen would rally to the son of Eddard Stark. Even Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse. White Harbor would give me a ready source of supply and a secure base to which I could retreat at need. It is not too late to amend your folly, Snow. Take a knee and swear that bastard sword to me, and rise as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North.” How many times will he make me say it? “My sword is sworn to the Night’s Watch.” Stannis looked disgusted. “Your father was a stubborn man as well. Honor, he called it. Well, honor has its costs, as Lord Eddard learned to his sorrow. If it gives you any solace, Horpe and Massey are doomed to disappointment. I am more inclined to bestow Winterfell upon Arnolf Karstark. A good northman.” “A northman.” Better a Karstark than a Bolton or a Greyjoy, Jon told himself, but the thought gave him little solace. (ADWD, Jon IV)

So, seriously, Jon does think Sansa is dead or thoroughly lost because he doesn’t categorically refute Stannis’ attempt to bestow the seat on someone else. He doesn’t recommend that Stannis try and find Sansa. She is completely beyond reach. We are given no reason to believe he considers her to be alive. He merely refuses to place himself anywhere in the succession, emphasizes her claim and his lack of it. Jon and Stannis have done this multiple times before, it is implied. So Jon has thought about this in depth, we are simply not made privy to his thoughts.

It is simply not true that Jon doesn’t think about this.

He thinks and talks about this and, given how Stannis emphasizes “Lady Lannister” and Tyrion’s connection to Sansa’s claim, and Jon just doesn’t even react, we can infer that Jon internally thoroughly rejects that marriage, its validity and its implications for Winterfell. Jon is not on board with Tyrion as Sansa’s husband. He probably has a very clear understanding of how Sansa was forced into it, and the only thing he may be ambivalent about is Tyrion’s complicity in this act, and how villainous he may have been toward Sansa. But there was never anything Jon could do about any of it.

I think, the simple answer, APART from the fact that GRRM is clearly withholding Jon’s actual thoughts and conversations on the subject of her marriage, is that Jon avoids thinking about Sansa’s pain because it is painful to him, and there is a special helplessness attached to it, because he doesn’t have a plethora of shared interactions to weigh against that.

He can think of Robb and Arya in terms of pain and strength and guilt and cheer because he shared those things with them.

Sansa? Is a completely different animal. Sansa is an unanswered question, a figure out of reach, known through sparse interaction, distant observation. Admiration, yes, but mostly experienced from afar or through the grumpy filter of his beloved little bundle of envy and frustration: baby sister Arya. Arya talks to Jon about Sansa, Arya talks to Sansa about Jon. He knows her, but they are not familiar. She’s something soft and romantic in his head, what does he know of how she deals with pain and abuse?

The final time Jon thinks of Sansa is in the context of home, childhood, Winterfell, love.

While it is often put into context with Jon’s death, these are not the final, peaceful imaginings of a dying man, this is Jon spurred to action by the thought of his siblings, the thought of his pack, the people he loves the very most in the world. Ned’s not there, Ygritte is no more than a fleeting mentor-quote on the level of Maester Aemon, Samwell is not there. Only his pack. One of them is alive, within his reach, dependent on his action. He has the means, he has the pretext to break out of the letter of his vows. Not to take their claim but to save one of them:

"I won't say you're wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?"

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.

They talked for the best part of two hours. (ADWD, Jon XIII)

This is Jon considering the essence of his most beloved people. His final moments with them. His heaviest association with them.

With Sansa, it’s another moment of romantic tranquility, observed from afar.

Even if in passing, that is an active choice on Jon’s part, to observe Sansa from afar, to such a degree that he knows how she would react to certain things. It implies an attachment, a desire to know her, a certain fascination.

I think much of their relationship entails the things we see Jon think about Sansa: a romantic attachment to natural beauty, a thorough awareness of status differences, an observation of chivalry and courtesies, an unquestioned place in the context of his pack, and a staunch willingness to defend her even beyond hope. A love at a distance, a love without familiarity, but a genuine love.

So this was a long and rambling way of saying that I think it’s mostly GRRM trying to hide their relationship from view, that it’s Jon suppressing painful thoughts he has no way of processing, that he is no longer fond of Tyrion and that the sum total of his few thoughts of Sansa are actually immensely positive and promising in a Jonsa context.

#asoiaf #jon snow #Sansa Stark #tyrion lannister #jonsa

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agentrouka-blog · 4 years

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Do you think Jon gonna mate in his wolf form? It's a theory by a jonsa shipper. There was haggon who mates with sly in one-eye. I don't want that for Jon and Sansa bcoz it's disgusting and traumatic at same time.

Hi anon!

I have never read such a theory.

Are you sure you didn’t mistake simple foreshadowing for Jonsa (with a post-resurrection Jon) for a case of bestiality?

Actually, it’s Varamyr, who we met in ASOS with the rest of the Wildlings, who uses the wolves that way (wolf on wolf, mind!), and it’s considered an abomination. Varamyr reflects on the teaching Haggon, his warging mentor. The entire prologue of ADWD is a big soup of mirrors and foreshadowing but also a big laundry list of the ways in which warging is actually a power that can easily be horribly abused.

People are not necessarily wrong to mistrust wargs.

Varamyr is a special case because he is downright pleased to abuse his power:

warged into he dogs to murder his younger brother because he was jealous of him when he was only six

steals Haggon’s “second life” by forcing him from his intended animal and murdering his human body.

violently forces the warging onto his animals, none of them want it

uses his animals to attack and threaten people,

mates in animal form (male and female) which is a form of bestiality and of sexual abuse because obviously he’s still a third party forcing himself in on the act

threatens many women with his shadow cat in order to rape them and father children on them that he doesn’t take care of

hunts and eats human beings while warging

wargs into Thistle, who has saved his life and taken care of him, to steal her body when his own dies, it is a vicious fight during which Thistle destroys her own body just to force him out

And in all of this he is filled with nothing but self-pity.

Varamyr reflects a LOT of characters who abuse their power or drift into dangerous behaviors while warging. Bran and Arya are both going down dark paths. Robb was deeply unsettled by what he did with Ghost. Dany is a kind of Varamyr. Tyrion certainly is. Plus, all the Starklings will eventually break with their mentors and make their own Interpretation of their teachings. (Ygritte, Littlefinger, Three-Eyed Crow, Faceless Men, etc etc.)

Jon, one might speculate, will be most affected by this aspect:

“They say you forget,” Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. “When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains.”

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell’s, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well.

Basically, if Jon spends time in Ghost, his strong emotions will be preserved, his more refined behavior dulled. The text specifically uses “the beast” and “the wolf”, so we’re likely to slip into Beauty and the Beast territory with this angle. So yes, it’s probably going to affect his interactions with Sansa. And yes, One-Eye and Sly appear to be sibling wolves, which might be ist own hint at Jonsa.

Does that mean Ghost will try to mate with Sansa?

NO! What the hell? No! Obviously not! Nothing in the Prologue even suggests that.

The only one who does crap like that is, I think, Ramsey.

Jeyne pulled her wolfskins up to her chin. "No. This is some trick. It's him, it's my … my lord, my sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sure that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more than anything." A tear ran down her cheek. "Tell him, you tell him. I'll do what he wants … whatever he wants … with him or … or with the dog or … please … he doesn't need to cut my feet off, I won't try to run away, not ever, I'll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it …"

Rowan whistled softly. "Gods curse the man." (ADWD, Theon I)

Even Varamyr didn’t do that. That’s Ramsey’s thing. GRRM is not going to turn Jon into something worse than Ramsey.

Will Jon mate with some wolf while warging? I mean, Ghost has been running around unsupervised plenty of times, if he had the urge (and a direwolf at hand), he’s free to get busy. But we have never seen another direwolf in the text, even though they are said to live beyond the Wall. And since it’s still a gross thing to do, I really don’t think so.

Jon as Ghost is likely to be a foil to Varamyr. He will want to protect Sansa. He will be emotionally attached to Sansa. And while Jon has some deep-seated issues with resentment and anger that we have seen come out as violent outbursts, they were never directed at women ever. Jon, Ghost and Sansa coming together is likely to be a healing experience for them, not a source of more trauma.

The bigger issue will be Jon outside of Ghost. Life will be more complicated, more restricted and filled with new burdens, new trauma. Bran was a grump when he woke up from his coma. Now multiply that by Jon. That's the real “Beast”.

#asoiaf #jon snow #varamyr six-skins #Ghost the direwolf #warging #foreshadowing #abuse of power #sansa stark #jonsa

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