#but i really like the idea of joe and nicky's relationship being so BIG that marriage doesnt even begin to cover it

[wickedpact]

I ordered The Old Guard books and they have arrived today which in a small way makes up for the stress I’m having planning a wedding in 2021 (that is already planning take two because it got postponed from last year)

Do you think Joe and Nicky are actually married?

- the annoying Anon but you can call me AA if that’s better

its funny you ask bc i do have an opinion on that and the opinion is: no

im not like... sure, but i have two reasons why i dont think theyre married / why they dont think of themselves as married

  1.) if they did think of themselves as married, the answer to the question ‘what, is he your boyfriend?’ would just be 'no dickhead hes my fucking husband’

1b.) i mean, in the comics speech, joe says ‘He is not my ‘boyfriend’. He is not my 'lover', nor is he my 'partner’. He is all and more. He is my everything.”

so if joe dislikes labels like ‘partner’ or ‘lover’ because theyre not, idk, expansive enough to describe their relationship, (and he doesnt even mention 'husband’!) i cant imagine hed give a shit about marriage one way or another either. i made a post about it a while ago but theyve been together so long i doubt marriage is any more significant to them as a ~symbol of dedication~ than a couple of plastic promise rings two teenagers would buy at walmart. you know, like... theyre so beyond that

2.) im not an expert at queer history and im definitely making a lot of generalizations here that would make a historian flinch, but whenever i look at like,, historical queer media (poems, mostly, i read a lot of poetry for someone who doesnt like poetry) you dont really see gay people Yearn For Marriage like we do in more modern times; i mean, im not an expert on sappho’s writings, but she was kind of [waggles hand] mehhhh abt marriage, while also talking abt how great ‘’‘‘female companionship’’’‘ is. het marriage, and consummation, are often compared to theft and violence in her poems (albeit subtly) while the relationships between women who were...... involved were seen as erotic and comforting.

the two are never conflated, you know, she never talks about maidens marrying each other or wishing that they could, despite talking about marriage pretty frequently. m/f relationships and f/f relationships, which we would both define modernly as the same thing (just plain old love) are shown to be separate things from sappho’s perspective.

i mean, you see more recent stuff about gay people wanting to be married, but like, thats usually within the last couple hundred years. idk what the cultures joe and nicky grew up in taught on marriage, but a lot of Ye Olde people didnt expect to love the people they married (& of course these things depend on where youre from, era, class, gender, etc)

  i mean, i imagine that joe, as the heir of his family’s business, probably had to dodge arranged (economic) marriages, and nicky, well-- there are tons of ‘gay person becomes priest to avoid het marriage’ stories out there. joe and nicky honestly for a good majority of their lives probably saw marriage as an unfortunate inevitability that they luckily got to avoid. and i imagine its likely that they didnt associate love with marriage-- or at least, they saw it as a social or economic thing?

i mean, women being married off to create children and be ‘provided for’, or men getting married to create heirs and for.. sexual satisfaction (i guess).... where does what joe and nicky had comply with that kind of relationship, you know? neither of them was a woman who needed to be economically provided for, neither of them needed or wanted heirs-- just nothing about that specific type of social contract would appeal to them. they probably just saw their relationship with each other as something entirely different than the relationship of a marriage

and by the time the concept of marriage more or less began to change, they were in a relationship for so long that getting married wouldve probably be seen as silly to them

(but again like i said im probably generalizing a lot here)

#good luck with ur wedding omg #now is a pretty bad time to be trying to put together a wedding i imagine #also have fun w/ the books theyre a wild ride #AA #Anonymous #normally im that person Gayly Yearning For Marriage like everyone else #but i really like the idea of joe and nicky's relationship being so BIG that marriage doesnt even begin to cover it

[gaal-dornick]

Here is the post I teased about expectations for comics v movie in TOG that I mentioned, in relation to Joe and Nicky and how they were portrayed in their TTT stories. Also thank you so much to everyone on the BoN discord server for letting me sound it out even though it was kinda off topic there 💖

Anyway, for quite some time I think much of the dissatisfaction with the comics, and how they treat characterization and relationships, comes from applying movie standards to it. This is expected, very much so even. I think almost all of us got into the comics to varying degrees because of the movie, in search for more bits of info, for a little more stuff to chew on, and as such we went in with those amazing portrayals seared into our minds. There’s no denying that the casting is one enormous chef’s kiss, and the script and directing choices brought the most out of them.

The comics are... different, and with Joe and Nicky, they’re especially different, and in my opinion, it’s one of the big factors behind the mixed responses their stories got. Bear with me here, we’ll have some text exposition.

In the movie we’re introduced to Joe and Nicky through: hugs. Yeah, hugs and gifts, and laughter, and overall a very pointed scene that established their very close relationship to both Andy and Booker in one go. In the comics, the first thing Joe does is jab at Andy for not showering after her night out, and she mock-threatens to cut his throat over coffee. You get the difference.The trend continues, with most of their scenes being only with each other, and the story does very little, in my opinion, to establish their place in the team. Sure, it establishes their place with each other, but it feels like a separate bubble, with them mostly unaffected by the plot. They have no interests, no goals, no personality.

Talking about plot, they have no hand in moving it forward in either OF or FM. They don’t have arcs, they don’t have any development. They start and finish in the same place, because they have... nothing moving them. They are firmly placed as side-to-background characters, in my opinion. The movie, once again, changes this, by making them side characters with fully flashed out motivations and arcs and relationships other than each other.

After all this, comes TTT. We have Joe in two stories, Nicky in three. Only one of these has any participation of the other characters. The characterization is, in my view, contradictory in places. Why? I mostly think it’s due to the authors not really having much of anything to base them on if you’re going strictly with the comics. We don’t know what moves them (except for one off hand narration by Andy), we hardly see them interact with the others. Sure, I think there were more interesting places the authors could’ve taken them, but I also think: are these ideas truly comics based, or am I going off their movie characterizations? 

Mostly I think the movie marked them too much for me, and the idea I have of them is too defined by it. Seeing Joe and Nicky being mostly self contained in each other, mostly aloof to the others’ issues, feels... off, but it actually isn’t! It’s just their characterization in the comics. While movie Joe gushes emotions, comics Joe is unbothered. While movie Nicky happily engages in Nile’s doubts, comics Nicky is reluctant to mention Noriko even after she comes back. They are different characters, and their TTT characterizations are mostly on par with that. There is a lot of criticism to be made, on planning, on consistency, on themes, but I think keeping the distinction in mind is necessary to a fair judgement.

#the old guard #tales through time #yusuf al kaysani #nicolo di genova #joe x nicky #personal

[writeroftheprompts]

What Writers Can Learn From Movies: Showing Not Telling

I got an idea for these posts while I was watching The Old Guard on Netflix when it came it out but I wanted to wait a few days so it wasn't a spoiler for as many people, though at this point I’m sure you’ve seen some gifs. (That being said, if you haven't seen The Old Guard, go watch it and then come back. It’s worth your time. Promise.) I want to talk a bit about what fiction writers can learn about storytelling from watch movies, and I don’t mean about script writing, but about character, pacing, nuance and such. At the end of the day, as much as the actors and visual effects of a movie can make it great, the writing is just as crucial. a movie with terrible dialogue, plot, and pacing is going to suck no matter how many A listers sign on and a lot of the time movies with cringey writing make the same mistakes that other makes too. 

So for this post I want to talk about how The Old Guard did so well in showing Nicky and Joe’s relationship and I think a big part of it is in the showing and not telling. There are a lot of other interactions I could talk about but this was my favourite and for the sake of brevity I’m going to stick to just this. You might be thinking “but it’s a movie...isn’t it all showing?” Yes and no. There’s a big difference between one character looking at another and saying, “I love you. You are my whole world” and this:

(from this post by @rafasilvas​)

Obviously, if you’ve watched the movie then you know The Speech which is one of the most beautiful declarations of love I’ve heard so the relationship is certainly a beautiful mix of stelar dialogue, acting, and the actual actions which is what I want to focus on. The above moment comes after the two have tried to escape and been shot/stabbed a few times and know they are in trouble. The little head nudge is such a tender little act of contact like saying, “It’s okay, I’m here,” but better. They don't have to speak to show their affection and how they support one another and we as an audience don't have to hear it to see that too. Here are some more examples:

(from this post by @lucres​)

Despite the fact that they are “immortal” and have “died” countless times, the movie makes it clear that they will eventually one day actually die and so it is just an automatic response for both of them to check on the other every time they get hurt. It is the first thing either of them do before anything else, make sure the other is going to be okay. They don't need to say “I don't know what I do without you” because we can see it in the urgency with which they search for and reach out to each other. It’s not just something they say to be romantic, it’s something they truly feel so deeply it is instinctual rather than performative. And yes, these are actors portraying these roles (very well) so how does this translate into just text? It’s the subtle little gestures between characters that tell us so much more about them and their relationships with others, and in a much more entertaining and effective way, than simply having a character word vomit all of their deepest thoughts. The way one character may shudder or snarl at the mention of another’s name, or how one smiles and searches for their SO whenever they see something they know their partner would enjoy. A person’s character is hardly just their words, they are their actions as well. 

It’s attention to the details like this that show rather than tell who these characters are that make them such a compelling pair, both as a couple and as immortal warriors. Their love seems so real the audience is pulled to the edge of their seats every time one of them “dies” because Oh My God please don’t make the other have to live on without his other half! On top of just making this an awesome romance and a great story of mortal enemies turned immortal lovers, this adds so much tension to action scenes. If you don't really care about who lives or dies more than just “Oh well that’s unfortunate” the shoot outs are kind of meaningless. 

Showing and some telling (that Speech was damn good) for the win. 

#writing advice #writing tips #The Old Guard #writeblr #what writers can learn from movies #joe and nicky #character development #showing affection between characters #showing and telling

[sixth-light]

for everybody who was asking about Nicky’s PoV in Explaining Is Losing (set during the fourth chapter):

The first time Joe said “I love you,” to Nicky, Nicky knew he wasn’t really thinking about it. It was two weeks after Nicky had moved into his flat. Joe was on his way out the door to an early meeting he hadn’t been able to reschedule (Nicky had learned over the last few months that he was not an early riser) and he’d poked his head back in to ask, hastily, “Did we decide what we were doing about dinner?”

“I’ve got it, don’t worry,” Nicky said absently; he was sitting on the couch and reading a journal article, which was something he preferred to do at home, where – until recently – he could be guaranteed a lack of interruptions. “You’re cooking tomorrow, though.”

“You’re amazing, I love you, I have to run,” Joe said, and slammed the door. Nicky sat there frozen for five minutes, waiting for Joe to reappear. He didn’t.

*

If anybody had asked Nicky, which they had not, because Nicky had gone to quite extraordinary lengths to make sure nobody would – if anybody had asked Nicky how long he’d been in love with Joe, he wouldn’t have been able to tell them. It had, perhaps, been the day when Joe had come back to his office and dragged him back into the storage closet and got down on his knees and said I don’t like leaving things uneven, and Nicky had nearly spontaneously combusted on the spot. Or, no, that hadn’t been love. It had been nuclear-blast levels of lust, but not love. But certainly it had been there, in some degree, by the time Nicky had invited Joe over for dinner and Joe – instead of laughing, or awkwardly leaving – had sat down and eaten dinner and it had been…nice.

Nicky genuinely hadn’t really, really, been expecting that. His rivalry with Joe had been maintained largely because pride was his overwhelming sin (as his confessor knew all too well), and his personality included a level of sheer ingrained pettiness that had prevented him apologising to Joe even though it was deserved and, actually, was compounding the offense the longer he didn’t. There was also a kind of mean pleasure in it; Joe was fun to spar with, smart and witty and willing to be dragged down to Nicky’s level.

The fact that Joe was far and away the most attractive person Nicky had met in his life (and kind, and generous, and pleasant…to people who weren’t Nicky) had only somehow made it worse. After the incident – incidents – in the storage closet, Nicky had kept pushing because he knew that at some point, Joe would reject him, and then he could comfortably hate him for a reason that wasn’t entirely and unquestionably Nicky’s fault. That would be its own kind of terrible compensation.

Except he hadn’t, and he hadn’t, and Nicky had woken up the morning after that dinner with Joe wrapped around him, in Nicky’s very terrible and barely big enough bed, and known that he was in love and had no idea what to do about it. And now they were living together and he still had no idea what to do about it. Not because he thought Joe didn’t care about him; Joe just didn’t have the personality to use somebody like that. But because they had spent all this time not saying anything important to each other and Nicky didn’t know where to start. The very first thing he’d ever done with Joe was blow him in a storage closet on the very thin excuse of having lost a bet that Joe hadn’t even agreed to. He couldn’t just come out and declare his love now. Their affection for each other had always lived in the silences.

He gave up on reading the article because it wasn’t going to happen, and went to work, where he taught distractedly through two lectures, then sat through a committee meeting and contributed precisely nothing. This was still more useful than the very annoying (and badly-dressed) Vice-Chancellor who’d come to speak to them. At least he and Joe could be united in hating the administration (to be strictly separated from the administrative staff, who were the glue holding their departments together).

His oldest brother Franco called him at three o’clock. Franco felt the need to maintain a sort of patriarchal role in the family, which was funny because Nicky’s father was unfortunately still alive (he had been fifty when Nicky was born; he wasn’t young) and Franco was the only child who was still speaking to him. Giovanna hated their father because of his views on what women should do, Bernadetta was in the irredeemably queer basket with Nicky, and Marco had just enough family feeling to side with the majority of his siblings. Nicky tolerated Franco keeping up the tie because he knew it did come from a place of Franco caring for all of them, but knowing that anything and everything he said would eventually make it back to their father tended to temper how much he shared.

Franco told him all about what his children were doing before wanting to know what was new in Nicky’s life. Nicky did care about that, at least a little, as Giulia and Francesco were close to his own age and he had more or less grown up with them, but then on the other hand he also knew it all already because of Facebook.

“I moved,” Nicky said. “I’ll send you the new address. It’s not very far away, only a couple of streets.”

“Oh, why? Your flat was fine. Dark, but fine.”

Nicky thought about the disapproving curl of Franco’s mouth when Bernadetta had defiantly mentioned she wasn’t the only gay one in the family, more than a decade ago, and the way he never asked if Nicky was seeing anybody, and Joe saying You’re amazing, I love you, and thought: fuck it. “I’ve moved in with someone.”

Franco sounded startled. “Oh! Oh. Someone, like…I know rent in London is very high…”

“Someone I am in a relationship with,” Nicky said, feeling guilty because he didn’t know if that was what Joe would say, but it was true, wasn’t it? It was some kind of relationship. “A man. Since I know you’re wondering.”

“No, no, of course I know –” Franco made a impatient noise. “Don’t be difficult, Nico. Nobody is oppressing you. So tell me about him. How did you meet?”

“We work together. He teaches art history.”

He could hear Franco frowning. “Wasn’t there some art history professor you didn’t get on with –”

“Oh, no, that was someone totally different,” Nicky lied point-blank. “Joe and I have a lot in common.”

“Joe, huh. Is he English?” More frowning. “I suppose that’s not so bad…”

“Dutch,” Nicky said, and waited a beat. “But his family is from Tunisia. He’s Muslim.”

He clenched his left hand around his thumb, but all Franco said was “I would have thought you’d have enough trouble with the Church without that as well.”

“Well, I didn’t pick him out because he wouldn’t be trouble,” Nicky snapped, and had to reel it back. “You’d all like him. He’s one of the nicest people I know.” Joe would be, to Nicky’s family, he knew it. Even Franco, who did not at all deserve it.  

“It must be serious, if you’ve moved in with him,” Franco said, thoughtfully. “I know you wouldn’t do that if it wasn’t.”

“I – yes,” Nicky said, and felt like he was baring his soul and lying through his teeth at the exact same time; a very strange feeling. “Yes. Yes, it is.” Another breath. “It’s…it’s been about a year and a half.” At least if you counted from the storage closet; since he wasn’t giving any details, Nicky supposed he could do that.

“You should tell us these things, Nico!” Franco admonished him. “That’s forever! Giovanna got married in less time than that!” Nicky took the lecture quietly and made his excuses to end the call, heart pounding. He wasn’t sure why.

He took a breath, and dialed his mother’s number. He couldn’t let Franco tell her this.

*

Nicky had to chase Joe out of the kitchen when he got home. “Am I cooking, or not?”

“You’re cooking, and I won’t be in the way,” Joe said at once.

“Yes, you will. Go.”

“Why are you so mean to me?” Joe laughed.

“Because I love you enough to want to feed you something edible, which it won’t be if you keep distracting me. Out,” Nicky said, all in a rush. Joe laughed again and kissed him. He didn’t say anything. Nicky wasn’t sure if he was disappointed or not.

Late that night, after they’d turned the lights out, Joe sighed into the back of Nicky’s neck.

“What?” Nicky said.

“This evening,” Joe said. “In the kitchen. Did you say you loved me?”

“Does that sound like something I would say?” Nicky could feel the part of them that took over when they sparred doing the talking, and he hated it; why did he do this to himself? And to Joe.

“No,” Joe said, but gently. “No, of course not.” He kissed the back of Nicky’s neck, and said something Nicky couldn’t understand. It wasn’t even Arabic.

“I don’t know what that means,” Nicky said, wrapped up in Joe, dizzy with it.

“Yes you do,” Joe said, quiet, insistent. Nicky turned over in his arms, so he could lean their foreheads together.

“Yes I do,” he whispered. Joe held his hand in the quiet warm dark, and they breathed.

Nicky hadn’t expected it would be like this, being loved. His whole life was words; their whole dislike of each other had been words; and now, in this moment, he found he didn’t need them at all.

#the old guard #my fanfic #kaysanova #joe x nicky #nicolò di genova #I love these idiots

[nicelytousled]

As we're on the topic of a potential sequel explaining the immortality of the old guard, despite agreeing that it is probably better left alone since they would only have like 2 hours and I want Quyhn to have time to shine, I'm gonna play devil's advocate because I've been sitting on some Thoughts™ about it. What if their healing is not simply regenerative but rather reversal, a kind of time travel?

warning: this post contains body horror pls proceed with caution

I think it would be cool if their bodies were their own unique contained alternative timelines and healing was sort of like recalling a memory. When you remember an event you're not remembering the initial event itself but rather the last time you remembered it. Healing and coming back to life would mean rewinding to the last time they were healthy/alive. I think that could explain basic things like why their hair grows back the same way, why they have scars or piercing holes from before their first death, etc.

To explain what I mean in more depth let's use Nicky's spleen as an example. Let's say Dr. Kozak removes Nicky's spleen, puts it in a jar, and sets it aside. That spleen now exists in two different timelines: the timeline of the external world where it's in the jar and the timeline of Nicky's body after it reverses to the last time he had a spleen. That would also mean there's nothing remarkable about their DNA, something an anon bought up in an ask to @wickedpact which I thought was interesting. Dr. Kozak's samples would be effectively useless, just ordinary organs and tissue samples that abide by different rules of time only within the context of their bodies.

It could also explain how their bodies reject bullets and how they would be immune to disease. If their bodies are their own contained alternative timelines and all their atoms abide by different physical laws then anything that entered that differing timeline would be reversed and rejected. For example, when Nile stabs Andy if Andy hadn't pulled the knife out then eventually her body would have pushed it out by itself. I think this would also make very traumatic injuries like being beheaded easier to explain. Instead of growing an entirely new head from nothing they would instead revert back to the last time they had a head.

To explain what I mean further, if I place my hand flat against a wall then my hand and that wall are made of the same essential stuff, it's all just atoms buzzing around together in different combinations abiding by the same laws of physics. If Nile with her newfound immortality put her hand flat against a wall it would be different. Her hand and the wall would not be made of the same essential stuff because her atoms are buzzing away to a totally different tune than the wall she's touching. They can interact but they are fundamentally different because Nile's body is its own unique dimension with different rules about how time works.

Off the top of my head, I think this is interesting in regard to the story of The Old Guard for these reasons:

It might be interesting to explore exactly what results in someone transitioning from the timeline the rest of the world operates in into their own embodied dimension. We don't yet know the circumstances of Quyhn or Lykon's first deaths, but going by Andy, Nile, Booker, Joe, and Nicky they probably all share the setting of war and the experience of very intense emotion, for example, betrayal, hatred, and fear. What is it about war specifically? What is it about those emotions? What do the characters think about these shared similarities? They could dig a lot deeper than destiny and misery loves company.

It could also add some depth to how they dream of one another before they meet. The dreams are from an outside perspective, which on my last rewatch I thought was odd. It's not like you're in someone else's head when you dream of them, rather you're being shown their face from some non-existent perspective. It's like they're being orbited by something, as if they're each the centre of a different plane of reality.

It would explain how Quyhn could be awake for long enough that Nile could dream about her in such detail. Her body would be constantly returning to the point where she took her last breath, reverting to when it last had oxygen. I think that's more terrifying than the idea that she's simply regenerating, to have been submerged for hundreds of years but to have your body constantly reverting to the state it was in the last moment you had above the surface.

^ side note on the above points but The Old Guard has the potential to be a kind of cosmic horror story I think, especially from Quyhn's perspective. Her body constantly turns back time but her present remains the same and there's no escape and no way of knowing why. I might make a separate post some time about The Old Guard in relation to the fear of the unknown and the discovery of incomprehensible truths. Much to think about there.

I also think this version of immortality is interesting because it's such a contrast to how healing works for ordinary people, and how emotional healing works specifically. Healing is never about returning to the place you once were before you were hurt, something that's often impossible to achieve and distorted by memory, but rather about building yourself back up while accepting that hurt as a part of you. Both Andy and Booker are carrying around unprocessed grief, and I think it's interesting how their bodies could be so out of sync with how humans heal emotionally. That must wear on them psychologically and that could be interesting to explore.

On a much lighter note, if they are their own contained alternative timelines then maybe Joe and Nicky are perfectly in sync. Not to quote Bronte wildly out of context but I'm talking "Whatever our souls are made of, his and mine are the same" kind of stuff. I'm talking when @emjee wrote "They’re a binary star system, Joe thinks. Two bodies, one single point of light.” Maybe they're perfectly mirrored, orbiting one another. Maybe because of that they're guaranteed to stop being immortal together too, I think that would be nice.

Really, I do agree with Greg that a sequel should be focused on characters and relationships rather than exploring the how's and why's of their immortality. In 2 hours it would be better to dedicate time to incorporating something like flashbacks like Greg says, maybe to show the tension between past and present with Andy and Quyhn.

I think my more general point is that if a potential sequel did explore the how's and why's of immortality, I think there might be a sweet spot where they could give us more information about how it works without revealing everything (like they did with Copley's big board of stuff). Sometimes information like that can ask more questions than it answers, and it can strengthen character arcs when interpreted by the protagonists, and I think that can be great for storytelling. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing that in a third film.

#the old guard #the old guard meta #long post #bird makes stuff #tw body horror #i use the word interesting far far too much #its almost midnight forgive me #does this even make any sense? who knows #why does a post need to make sense is it not enough to read a collection of words next to each other

[qqueenofhades]

Thank you for your answer to my last ask! Just sort of carrying on from that, what do you think about how they should cover medieval queerness in a potential prequel? I read your post about the deep relationships between knights which was really interesting. I guess what I'm asking is what would "Period-typical Homophobia" for Nicky and Joe actually be? Thank you for educating us better than school does.

Okay, I’m gonna come in here with a Scorching Hot Take that may ruffle some feathers, but possibly... none?

If the point of including casual homophobia or homophobic references is literally just for the sake of evoking some supposed Medieval Bigotry for ~Le Atmosphere Of Dark Age, there is a) no point to it, and b) not much historical evidence either. People love to point out that we didn’t have the modern identity labels of “gay,” “lesbian,” “bisexual,” etc. in the olden days -- well, in that case, we don’t have modern homophobia either, or reactions to those behaviors in the same way. We don’t even have much textual evidence for how ordinary people (outside clerical/religious elites, who would be predisposed to disapprove, just like the religious right today) reacted to so-called “queerness” in their communities, and the circumstantial evidence we DO have suggested that it was far from any imagined universal experience of rejection and isolation. Besides, what we call “queer” due to fragile modern heteronormativty and toxic masculinity was actually intensely normal for medieval people.

One of the tiresome arguments that Straight Historians tend to use, when queer historians are arguing for a queer, romantic, or sexual relationship between two people of the same gender (usually men, because that’s who mostly appears in our sources), is that “friendship was a lot more romantic/intimate/emotional/physical in nature back then!!! They’re not gay They’re Just Pals!!” This is actually true, in that medieval men, far from this Iron Man No Homo No Emotions trope that (once again) we ourselves have come up with, were encouraged (as I wrote about in my gay knights post) to love each other almost, if not quite, beyond reason. There was so much crying, kissing, embracing, tender declarations of loyalty, etc (see: Is It Gay or Is It Feudalism?) Any of those behaviors would make the modern viewer go “lololol HOMOSEXUAL!!!”, but it’s not even always the case? The standards of physical affection, vows of devotion, and close emotional bonds even between platonic friends were just different, and while yes, there was a corresponding anxiety about this attachment turning sexual, the fact that it was considered as a worry in the first place shows you how intense these bonds could be. So while the modern viewer may see two men acting like that and go “oh no gay cooties,” this just wouldn’t raise any eyebrows at all to a medieval person, and hence they’re not going to come back with some dumb manufactured homophobic comment.

Next, in re Joe and Nicky specifically: I SORELY long for a scene in this imaginary prequel where after something romantic has happened between them for the first time, Nicky understandably freaks out a little and goes to confession. There is one other guy in front of him, and a bored priest who is not very good at his job. Guy In Front of Nicky (we’ll call him Guy) goes into the booth and kneels. Priest looks at him, doesn’t even ask. “Oh, is it sodomy again? Fine, seven days fasting bread and water, say two decades of the rosary, Ego te absolvo in nomine Patris -- ”

Waiting outside the booth, Nicky can hear this (since remember this priest is Bad at his Job and has apparently never met the concept of confessional confidentiality in his life) and sags in relief a little. Oh sodomy isn’t that bad, right, it’s a venial sin, no big --

“Father,” says Guy, “I confess that I have also consorted with a Saracen in search of a magical remedy.”

(We don’t gender the Saracen, because we don’t believe in supporting  stereotypes, and since it’s established Guy is into Kinky Stuff, you never know.)

Priest LOSES HIS SHIT.

“You WHAAAAAAAT? CONSORTING WITH A SARACEN FOR MAGIC!! THIS IS A TERRIBLE SIN!!! YOU NEED TO REPENT IMMEDIATELY!!!”

Cut back to Nicky. OH SHIT!!! Sodomy not bad, he could deal with that. Consorting with a Saracen?? OH SON YOU’RE DOOMED. SODOMY WITH A SARACEN??? OH MY GOD I’M GOING TO HELL!

Cue Nicky’s silent existential crisis Dying in the background while the priest lectures Guy to within an inch of his life. Finally, Guy decides fuck this priest (not like that, this is not Fleabag) and scuttles out. A thoroughly terrified Nicky thinks about following him, but since the priest has already seen him, he can’t flee. He goes into the booth and kneels down, Quaking.

“What have you come to confess, my son?”

Nicky.exe has stopped working.

“.....jealousy.”

You get the idea. And guess what? This would be COMPLETELY accurate, because if we were using, say, Burchard of Worms’ Decretum, an early 11th-century handbook advising priests what penalties to give to various sins, that’s basically how it’s treated. Sodomy is blown over briefly with the other venial sins as a certain amount of days fasting on bread and water, while Burchard is really, really worried about witchcraft, magic, non-Christian beliefs, and other such things. So again, really, what is “Period-Typical Homophobia?” We’ve already established that behavior between two men that would raise modern eyebrows would be absolutely nothing remarkable to a medieval person, while priests obviously don’t approve of sodomy, but they’re not that fussed by it either. (Unless you’re Peter the Chanter, who’s just a dick, but he is yet again one guy writing about one specific context, 12th-century Paris, and the fact that he’s complaining so much means that it’s obviously happening in reality.) Besides, the whole idea was that sodomy was the “unspeakable sin,” aka something people just didn’t mention or talk about, which is why it can be hard to track down reliable or unambiguous treatments of it. Obviously, queer erasure isn’t a surprise, but it doesn’t mean that these people didn’t exist; it just means that chroniclers, especially monastic chroniclers, didn’t write about it. So even if this is outright happening, i.e. Joe and Nicky’s romance and/or the number of other queer characters we will be sure to include for verisimilitude, there’s still no guarantee that anyone would even actually SAY something.

And besides: not every minute of history was filled with homophobia, just as not every minute was filled with filth, torture, misogyny, etc. There is actually no necessary reason to include it, especially in boring modern homophobia form, unless you’re trying to beat us over the head with Things Being Bad Back Then. Especially if we’re making a movie that honors and empowers queer people, who deserve a chance to escape into a lavish historically detailed gay romance with Joe and Nicky and not have to deal with bog-standard microaggression as a result. Because what I’ve laid out above is just as much (in fact more so) historically accurate, and MUCH more funny, interesting, authentic, and original.

(And thanks so much!! Another GREAT question.)

#history #medieval history #queer history #joe x nicky #persephone-rose-r #ask #the old guard meta

[aphroditestummyrolls]

For the character ask: Nile Freeman!

Hi Friend!

How I feel about them: she’s literally the fucking coolest. I love her. Like the rest of the team, I love how there’s so much to build into her character. Gina and Greg really blessed us with all of the wonderful little tidbits we’re given— art history, south side of Chicago, mom and brother and dad, military family, her army buddies, throwing herself out a LITERAL window, shooting herself in the foot, all that stuff— she feels so WHOLE. Without us getting every little detail of her biography. As a writer, that’s just so much fun to see and work with.

Romantic Ships: y’know, it was a slow-growing thing— and at first, I actually didn’t like it, but now it’s like, my Nile OTP— I love Book of Nile. But I only ever headcanon it as a super slow burn. Like, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years of friendship, Booker working on himself, and Nile settling into immortality. Kiki and Matthias had a great chemistry, and I could watch the two of them play any type of relationship, honestly. I thought they played with each other so beautifully.

My only other romantic ship for Nile would be a mortal. Whether that’s an OC or that’s a Celeste type of character, it doesn’t matter— I love the idea of Nile having some wild, clandestine romance with someone. Niles potential when it comes to throwing caution to the wind. She deserves something wildly romantic.

BROTP: ANDYYYYYYYY. I mean, I’m obsessed with found family, and I love devoting time to Nile and Nicky, and Nile and Joe— I actually wrote a story about all these relationships lol— but I LOVE the bond built between Andy and Nile throughout the movie, and their Tales through Time comic was !!!!! And once Quynh comes back?? The relationship Quynh and Nile could have just had so much potential! They are both new to this life, re-experiencing things for the first time, Nile as a new immortal and Quynh as a changed woman who’s missed five hundred years of technology and life. Seeing the three of them grab life by the balls and learning to be joyful after all they’ve lost and gained would be so meaningful.

Unpopular opinion: Despite her shooting herself in the foot and throwing herself out of a building, i don’t consider Nile to be an inherently chaotic person/someone who doesn’t think things through. I have always headcanoned her as the older sibling (she honestly reminds me a bit of my own sister), and being the oldest sibling in a single parent household is stressful and often gives you a deep sense of responsibility, caution, and efficiency.

I love the idea of Nile having chaos in her and having her moments to go crazy, go stupid ahhh. I just think it’s something she would grow into with her immortal family— suddenly, she’s the baby. She has three (four, she and Booker totally exchanged numbers and stay in contact) people who are there with ENDLESS time to support her, and I’d love to see her starting to release her inhibitions more and more as she gets comfortable with them. (Nile has big Pisces energy. The American system is so stifling, but I want her to be able to fLoOOoooOW, y’know?)

One thing I wish happened in canon/want to see happen in canon: As much as I want a flashback to the Joe/Nicky 1099 friends-to-lovers speed run in 2O2G, I want to see flashbacks for Nile. I want to know why she loves art! And what was the last thing she said to her mom! I want Nile to be able to process the grief of losing her family, because we don’t get to see her do that in the movie (I mean, I kinda wrote a little something about her processing and stuff, but it would be nice to see it in canon)! Everything is still too fresh, and she makes a split-second decision to go back and help the others, and she makes a huge sacrifice. I want to see the fallout of that. How do the others help her through her grief? Does she see her brother across Hyde Park when a mission takes them to her hometown, and trigger a wash of memories? Does she call Booker? Theres so much incredible potential for Nile, and I’m so excited to see whatever they do with her.

Thanks so much for playing! I have a lot of thoughts about Nile that I’ve never put to paper before, and this was really fun. ❤️

#the old guard #nile freeman #my gal my dear my lil Chicago Hot Dog ❤️ #ask game #ASK ME THINGS

[spacewitchqueen]

5 for the fluff prompts?

Neon! Thank you so much for the prompt (and sorry it took me so long to get to it 😅 I think it could’ve been fluffier but I hope you like it)

5. “You’re my world”

It was a quiet afternoon. Joe and Nicky were spending some time apart together, each curled up on opposite ends of the couch.

Nicky clicked his tongue in disapproval. Joe raised his eyes from the book he was reading and directed his gaze at the object of his husband’s annoyance: the TV where an overdramatic scene from an indistinct soap opera was on full swing.

“What is it, habibi?”

“The way these people talk about love,” Nicky muttered. “You’d think it either doesn’t exist or is something entirely different.”

“Care to elaborate?” Joe put his book aside, eager to hear Nicky talk about love.

“I know everyone has their own idea of love but these people.” Nicky waved his hand. “Met five minutes ago and they’re already doing big declarations of love and telling each other ‘you’re my everything’.” 

“And you don’t like those things?” Joe raised an eyebrow, incredulous.

“I do! And while I do not deny the intensity of love at first sight, for me that’s not the best part of it, definitely not the whole of it. And also.”

“Yes?”

“Can you really know in a few minutes if someone is your everything?” Nicky looked at Joe, a slight blush coloring his cheeks. “It took me years to realize the depth of my feelings for you, to recognize that yes, you are my everything.” He bit his lip and looked down at his feet. “It’s just. We didn’t fall in love at first sight, and when we did we didn’t have this stormy relationship that some people seem to expect or want. We disagree from time to time, sure, but we do not fight all the time, nor would I want to. What does that mean?”

Joe got up and stood in front of his husband, he put one hand on Nicky’s shoulder and with the other raised Nicky’s face to meet his eyes. “It just means our love story is ours. I have loved you for centuries, I treasure every moment we spend together, and I adore you with every fiber of my being.” He lowered himself carefully to straddle Nicky, giving his forehead a soft bonk. “And I can say without a shadow of a doubt that you are my world.”

“And you’re mine.” Nicky pulled Joe into a kiss.

Nile walked into the room, not bothered at all by the ongoing PDA. “If you’re not going to watch that, can I have the remote?”

Prompts (if you send me a prompt it might take me a while to get to it because I’m writing my big bang fic <3)

#the old guard #tog fic #joe x nicky #immortal husbands #kaysanova #fluff prompts #demonicneonfishy #userhegel #userbooker #swq writes

[wsgeon]

hey everyone! ummm this is peyton (also the mun of lee hyeon) taking a second shot at a second character — i have a lot of muse for this one, so i swear he’ll be around for a while… 🥵 this is ryu geon, yes his name rhymes with hyeon’s & no i do not care ♥️ he’s the lead guitarist/vocalist of meta and also the son of a former nobody rockstar, but i’ll get into all that below! like this post if you’d like for me to come into your ims to plot, click the read more for more info on geon, and/or click here to be taken to his pages: CAREER, DOSSIER, PINTEREST.

HISTORY.

born in autumn ‘97 to a “budding rockstar” (translation: “no yeah i swear our band’s really starting to take off, we sold twenty-three tickets to our last show!”) & a woman with commitment issues ♥️ geon’s dad always told him that his mom left because she had some dire matters that needed to be taken care of and SWORE that she cried the last time she held her dear baby boy, but all of his dad’s bandmates say that she was just some groupie and had to be persuaded into carrying her child to term… who can say for sure?

naturally, there are no pictures of this mystery woman. there was one (1) of her holding infant geon, but then he found out that that was actually a sound tech who worked for his dad’s band… and he just never corrected geon’s assumptions LOLLLL

anyway! he was always really close to his dad, considering they were a two-person family. he has a set of grandparents, an aunt and a couple cousins but they were never involved with geon’s life because his dad is the #blacksheep of the family. geon and his dad against the world, am i right?

uhhh geon was also kind of a black sheep growing up, but he didn’t really notice? he was a happy kid, very energetic and enthusiastic. a lot of adults in the area looked down on him & his dad, but he was SOOOO blind to it because his dad’s a god in his eyes and HE’S always been nice to everyone, so why would they not like him??? because his clothes smelled a little like dad’s cigarette smoke??? big deal

wasn’t troublesome (beyond talking too much), but a lot of people still expected bad things from him :/ “his father’s a dirtbag, i’ll be surprised if that boy doesn’t end up in jail by 20”, “he won’t amount to anything without a proper role model in his life”, “his dad is teaching him how to slack off”, “he won’t contribute anything to society”, etc. he kindaaa picked up on this as he got older but pretended not to because it was more rewarding to play dumb and keep being a good kid(tm) to prove them wrong

was basically a mini version of his dad. same style, similar features, birthmarks in the same places, same “live today, die tomorrow” approach in life, same affinity for singing & playing rock music. ummm he loved his dad a lot. a lot. a lot. wanted to make him proud SO BAD, started his first band when he was 15 and they sucked so bad but his dad was their biggest fan… you know how it is. a lot of people misunderstood him, but he was a very good guy and such a great parent

TW DEATH unfortunately he passed away just shy of geon’s 18th birthday and your boy still hasn’t forgiven the world for taking his dad when he was in the middle of his angsty teen phase — had he known that their time together was dwindling, he would’ve been so so so much better to him END TW

his dad’s band actually rocketed into the charts after he passed & suddenly they were getting loads of publicity, lots of “what a shame that he went under-appreciated” which pissed geon off SOOOO bad because why couldn’t they have had that energy when he was still alive? he’s still mad about it five/six years later

this is getting kinda long, so uhhh tl;dr, he ended up staying with the drummer of his dad’s band until he was old enough to live alone/READY to live alone, but he changed quite a bit. was really going through it, quit his band, stopped putting effort into school. barely graduated. went from being a social butterfly spending every weekend at a gig or with friends to spending all of his time on a pc or in front of a tv, playing console games. the internet comforted him when nobody else would/could and then he met the future members of meta <33333333 #newbeginnings

present day geon is still struggling, has to go to counseling bi-weekly but he’s coming back out of his shell! he wants to fall in love with life again, just wants to tread carefully... outgoing & will talk to absolutely anyone, but he still spends most of his time alone. hard to reach by text, so if you wanna talk to him, you better call/facetime LMAO. talks a mile a minute, especially if you get him going abt something he really likes. laughs a lot, smiles a lot, more habitual than actual signs of happiness but yk. ummm he has a really loud voice, mostly controlled nowadays but he still gets carried away sometimes. an absolute menace during long drives/flights, sorry meta.

funny but only when he’s in large groups. feeds off of other peoples’ energy, really good at reading a room and breaking the ice/making everyone comfortable, but if you meet him 1-on-1, none of his jokes land quite the same.

i envision him as being the kind of guy who carries himself in such a way that you’d assume he’s really popular/out of reach/maybe even full of himself, but he’s... not like that... at all... in fact, he’s kinda irritating when you get to know him. the personification of a flood followed by a drought and vice versa, always either too much or not enough. gets used/ghosted/dropped/dumped/whatever a lot because he’s soooo fun in the moment (if he isn’t in his feelings), but draining long-term.

really emotionally intelligent, in touch with his feelings in a way that a lot of people never thought he would be (probably thanks to counseling tbh). he’s very very rarely the type of person who will make you wonder what your place in his life is — he’s communicative, kind, honest. ummm he thinks that intimacy between friends needs to be more common, so he’s really affectionate with the people in his life. type of guy to tell you he loves you every chance he gets (calling you when he’s drunk, sounding like a clingy ex type beat) & greet you/depart with a hug. losing his dad kinda fucked him up in the way that he won’t leave/hang up until his friends say “i love you” back, gets kinda (re: very) upset if he’s denied that and/or a hug.

TRIVIA.

has been playing the guitar “longer than he’s been walking” (not really, but he swears it’s true).

uhhh he really likes nail art, but he’s kinda hesitant in what he tries? mainly sticks to black polish (or other plain colors), but sometimes he’ll get little designs added in as well. mainly does it himself because he still doesn’t feel comfortable in salons... if his work looks bad, leave him alone <3 he’s trying

inspired by people like kurt cobain, nicky wire, yungblud, billie joe armstrong & damiano david in the fact that he’s not against wearing dresses or skirts on stage. doesn’t do it ALL the time, but often enough that it doesn’t go unnoticed. some people say that he does it for attention because he doesn’t dress like that elsewhere and tbh they’re probably kinda right

interested in history (only SOME... dinosaurs, ancient civilizations, specialized areas like the history of circuses/clowns/skateboarding/punk, stuff like that yk), stand-up comedy & documentaries. could spend a whole day watching documentaries and would say he had fun, has a lot of useless knowledge that nobody gives a fuck about and is kinda dumb when it comes to things that matter

when it comes to music, he prefers playing really fast and heavy rock or punk over anything else, but he actually listens to a lot more soft indie on his own time... he’s too tense these days to be listening to anything else RIPPP

the vibe: homemade tie-dye, ripped slipknot t-shirts, frosted tips, neon crocs with alien & peace-sign charms, chipped black nail polish, calloused hands, cheesy pick-up lines used NOT to land a date but to pull a smile, driving until he’s lost, stupid socks paired with pressed suits, dramatic poetry in an iphone note, etc. 

PLOT IDEAS.

people he met through online support groups about coping with grief

uhhh an on & off relationship that’s been going for who-knows-how-long. the reason for this is up for discussion, but i imagine that he hasn’t given up yet because the constant highs and lows are a good source of inspo 🤪 artists must suffer for their art!

opposite side of the coin — someone he’s interested in, but he’s NOT disloyal so it’s a pattern of persistent courting when he’s single vs intense friend-zoning when he’s not and they’re getting tired of trying to figure out what he wants from them

someone else who likes nail art & can convince him that NOBODY cares if he goes to a salon

someone (probably female but doesn’t really matter tbh) who feels like his feminism is entirely performative… maybe they attack him directly for it or maybe they just REALLY don’t like him and they’re super vague about it idk. either way, please tell him that activism is much more than recommending one female artist a year and saying “clothes have no gender 🤪” so he can be praised for the bare minimum (his heart is in the right place but his skull is empty)

someone super introverted who comes out of their shell with geon! uhhh maybe they think that he’s the one doing them a favor, but in reality spending time with them has been doing wonders for his mental health

other people who like to skate. let’s congregate at the local skatepark and scare the middle schoolers away

someone who inspires him musically, for whatever reason. lots of late nights in studios, idly strumming his guitar and writing lyrics that definitely aren’t about how their eyes look in these dim lights… umm maybe he thinks he has a crush on them but really doesn’t and ends up hurting them eventually, maybe he really DOES have a crush but will (probably) never do anything abt it or maybe it’s entirely platonic and he just admires them a ridiculous amount

someone who likes to make music as a hobby, prob won’t publish/release any of it but it’s fun to imagine. spontaneous meetings with geon in the middle of the night, recording songs together and keeping the WORST takes for the laughs. there’s probably a diss-track of them going in on each other floating around somewhere even though geon can’t rap for shit

night owls who keep him company on the phone, even if they can’t be there physically. them talking really quietly vs geon shouting at them while he plays games LMAO

gaming buddies. come over, maybe you can carry geon through his game of the week or you can both fail but have fun while you’re at it… or you can scream while he fends off that hoard of zombies behind you

i’m typing this at the last minute (literally) so i’m gonna stop here, but i will get a proper plots page put up asap with a wider variety of connections!!! but as always, please do let me know if you have any other ideas. i’m always happy to plot and write with you all 🌚

#ws:intro #frankly my characters end up a lil different from intended 90% of the time soooo take my description of his personality w a grain of salt #this intro is long and illiterate but i'll fix it at a later time

[jzixuans]

please sir, can I have some tog fic recs?

oh SO many hold on okay (these are all gonna be on ao3)

also under the cut to spare my poor followers

i’ll lay my roots in fertile ground by itsmylifekay (13154 words)

Andy did this on purpose, she’s sure of it. No matter how many excuses about skillsets and plans and 'you’ve been working on your Arabic, it’ll be good practice, Nile'… she knows now it was all a bunch of lies. There can be no other explanation for why she has been here, stuck with Joe in the middle of a hot, Italian summer while Andy has taken Nicky to the northern most part of France. It is a unique and unexpected kind of hell.

(A series of seven stories, snapshots of the first few years of Nile's time with the team. I'm trash for Nile & Nicky & Joe dynamics so there's a lot of that in here, but the others are all part of the craziness as well.)

fluffy slice of life post movie, really funny, really soft, i love how the author built their relationships

though you are alone and not quite beyond loneliness by dialux (26238 words)

“Joe didn’t lie back in that lab,” Booker tells him gently. “I am selfish. I am a liar. But beyond everything else, Nicky, I’m a coward.”

“Really,” says Nicky, looking unimpressed.

[Booker tries to save his family from Quynh. He's rather good at it, if not a little dramatic about the entire process. In the meantime, he learns a little more about himself, his family, and the definitions of bravery, forgiveness and love.]

a study in booker! real in depth, real great long read. (warning for antagonist quỳnh)

even if we win the battle by glitter_lisp (2591 words)

"Our Nile may have missed her calling,” Nicky says with a choked, hoarse laugh. “She should have been an actor. Or a surgeon.”

Then he slumps over in Joe's arms, unconscious, and Nile drops the scalpel, spins around, and throws up on the carpet.

whump but oh so good. focus on nile + nicky after a particularly harrowing mission with some good good nile + joe. (warnings for torture, mentions of throwing up (i mean it’s in the summary), blood, and some leftover trauma)

six summers down by sharkhette (3385 words)

Nile watched the first rays of the sun come filtering through the trees, softly dappling the path in yellow and grey. "Tell me something good?" she asked. "Everything's been such a shitshow since I met you—since even before that. And now, with Booker gone, and Andy…" She swallowed and turned to Nicky, who watched her with big, soft eyes. "Just tell me something I can look forward to in all this."

nile and nicky go for a run. the consequences of immortality catch up to her. some real good nile + nicky plus bonus immortal family at the end (warning for talk of quỳnh’s drowning)

atlas by bestillmyslashyheart (1336 words)

Nile is fine until she isn't. When the weight of her actions catches up to her, she needs someone to talk to.

some more nile + nicky from that time i deep dived the tag. for when you want to imagine nicky scooping you up in a big warm hug

i found love where it wasn’t supposed to be by imadetheline (1070 words)

Nile has a nightmare. Her family is there for her. And for one another.

late night immortal family dance party. makes you feel like everything is right in the world

at the crossings of two heart lines by mayqueen517 (4239 words)

"You understand - you cannot look back until you both stand beneath the sun."

"I do not need to see my love to know he is there. He is the breath in my lungs and the beat of my heart."

"Very well." ---

A Joe/Nicky twist on the Orpheus/Eurydice myth.

if you thought hadestown made you cry, this’ll wrench you more. happy ending though!! (warnings for death (obv), so much despair and hopelessness)

this lifetime and the next by kirasometimes (6662 words)

Shortly after marrying the love of his life, Nicky dies and his husband disappears.

or: Nicky is newly immortal and Joe has no idea.

a super interesting take. it’s still living in my head two weeks later and i Really need to reread it. (warnings for death, blood, stabbings, canon typical violence i guess. lab capture)

#nickyisnotamouse (and other stories from a happy universe) by lydenicokite (6806 words)

It may be a cliché to say this (“I didn’t want to become famous, it just happened!”), but Nicolò’s youtube career started as a joke. Actually, it started with Yusuf, like all the best things in Nicky’s life.

--

Nicky is a famous Youtuber, even if most of his fans are more interested in Joe, the elusive cameraman who never appears in front of the camera but flirts with Nicky in every video, than in the actual cooking and book reviewing. #RevealTheHusband and #WhereIsJoe are trending on twitter every time Nicky uploads a new video, but Nicky still believes it's important to keep his life with Joe private. It can't be that difficult, right?

hilarious modern youtuber!nicky au with lots of great interactions between the team and also nicky’s adorable (warning for drinking)

this time with knives by arkada (3588 words)

Joe gets into trouble on a mission.

Nicky gets him back.

badass nicky with knives saves his husband. nile + nicky + joe on a mission. not as angsty as it sounds. (warning for canon typical violence, death (joes dies a good handful), lots of described stabbing and slashing, blood)

even oaks must bend by winteryknights (2631 words)

The sidestreets are dead silent compared to the bustle of downtown, letting both ease and worry simmer in Joe’s bones as they pass only occasional pedestrians on their walk to the address Copley had given them. It’s a small apartment, part of a stonework building that’s likely just as old as Booker himself and a part of Joe wonders if he’d chosen it for the familiarity. A bigger part of him finds that it still hurts to care.

Or,

Andy doesn't have ninety years, but she does have a plan.

they go get booker early. things are sorted out. nicky and joe’s pain is acknowledged and booker is held accountable

ever have i never by nilmiel (525 words)

“Never have I ever had Joe profess his undying love for me to a bunch of people trying to kill us.” Joe had run out to pick up the takeout they’d ordered, and Nile had decided to teach the remaining group of fossils she now called family a new game for while they waited. And if it was a game she was guaranteed to win? Well. That wasn’t on purpose. — A small fic in which Joe loves his family, and the immortal fam love Joe.

i just really like joe waxing poetic about his family

the devil you know by falseconfidence (2254 words)

In which Nile drives the getaway car for the first time and quickly learns that there's a reason why everyone in this family drinks.

where nicky is your annoying dad in the passenger seat and andy slashes the tires of a dickbag and nile is Very Tired (warning for brief canon typical violence, unsafe car practices)

let our moment linger by indiebitch (1466 words)

there was something so lovely about Yusuf being draped across him like this. The rise and fall of his stomach as a reminder that his love, his heart was still breathing. The happy little sighs Joe would let out every once in a while. It just made Nicky so happy he could weep.

or Nicky loving to watch his husband sleep

soft sleepy husbands fluff

i found peace in your violence by incurableromancer (1387 words)

Nile knows that Joe could take apart and reassemble any make or model of gun you put in front of him while blindfolded and probably handcuffed. She knows that he can competently fly more planes and man more ships than Nile has or will see for many, many years to come. She’s heard stories about him defusing bombs and making it home in time for dinner, and yet. He’s still mildly afraid of microwaves, and doesn’t know how to type with his thumbs. Nile has seen him cry at The Notebook, and then cry again hours later while telling Nicky about it.

Or: found family, and moments of happiness, peace and healing between the chaos.

nile and joe hang out!!!

hope these are enough to tide you over!! (and lmk if i missed a link or anything)

#the old guard #immortal family #joe x nicky #andy x quỳnh #nile + nicky #joe + nile #joe + nicky + nile #lad of inbox #ask #long post #fic recs

[ocegion]

For the character meme, obviously: Nicky & Joe 😘

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!! thanks so much for the ask I immensely appreciate it!!!! <3<3<3<3<3<3

(also I went FAR OVERBOARD with this, I speak far too much when given the chance. Sorryyyyyyyyyy)

Joe:

First impression: Well, if it isn’t hot-but-dull Jafar. I know he’s gay in this one so that’s a plus point, but I’m not holding out much hope. He looks extra cute and fuzzy here though, that’s neat. (I want to clarify that I formally apologize to Mr Marwan Kenzari for having ever thought he couldn’t act, shame on me).

Impression now: *sobbing* He’s so GOOD and he’s so SOFT. He’s so full of love and passion and he can barely keep it inside and I’m honestly overwhelmed by how much I love this guy. Like, he’s so full of emotion and it’s so clear in his face at any given moment and that’s no weakness, that’s his strength and I just. Ugh. It’s so refreshing and great. Love is stored in the Joe. I wish real life had people like him.

Favorite moment: okay so it’s hard to decide because all his moments are great, but I’m going to go with the moment in which he waits for Nicky to wake up after Keane shoots him. You can see how he can barely keep inside the fear and panic he has when Nicky isn’t waking up, and then, when he does, Joe takes a moment to look aside and exhale before grasping him. Like he physically needed to let it out. I’m not sure if I’m explaining myself properly, but those couple seconds of body language fascinate me.

Unpopular opinion: It is entirely possible that it shows up in some secondary material that I just haven’t seen, in which case I’m dumb and I’m sorry for this, but I don’t think Joe is necessarily a poet? Like don’t get me wrong, I LOVE the idea of poet Joe and I do think he probably has an easier time around words than the rest of the Guard, but I’m not too sure where the idea came from? I think his speech in the ban comes out of the pure, raw love he has for Nicky more than any formal education he might have had about any of it. He’s just that passionate. I mean, not that I think it’s wrong of anything. I just think canon doesn’t give any indication at all about it. (plus comic Joe said something along the lines of ‘brewing the stew of love’ which is the most hilariously unpoetical thing ever lmao).

Favorite relationship: uuuuuhhhhhhhhhhh is it cheating to say Nicky? I’m gonna go with Nicky. I could go on for quite a while about his relationship with Nicky and I’m gonna spare us all having to go through that but I will say that as long as Joe and Nicky are alive the concept of romance just simply cannot die. They singlehandedly keep it alive and flourishing. 100000/10 best love story ever, I accept no criticism.

Favorite headcanon: Joe is a man who is, at any given moment, 110% in control of his own emotions. Like, he’s a emotionally driven man, no doubt about that, but he’s not impulsive in the least. When he was shouting at Booker, it wasn’t impulsive, he was angry as hell and decided to let him know. Then during the escape he shut it off and didn’t let it get in the way of cooperation, then let it out again. It’s like he has a valve on his own emotions that he willingly manipitales when he deems it right. He is very aware of his own emotions and just refuses to repress it for things like, pretending that what Booker did wasn’t that big of a deal, dude knows he’s entitled to be upset about it. Most emotionally mature and stable man on Earth.

Nicky:

First impression: I thought he looked soft and also sort of awkward-looking, but in a good way if that makes sense? tbh I expected him to be a nice character that didn’t get that much depth because he’d stay in the sidelines and only have a handful surface traits.

Impression now: I LOVE how hard it is to pin Nicky down as just this or that part of his personality, the way fandom usually does with characters. He’s soft and kind, but he will stay his ground and not let anyone walk over him. He believes in doing good as the purpose of his life, but he won’t hesitate to commit murder (Gotta wonder how exactly his moral code works). He’s warm and welcoming, but also sort of reserved and not saying much about himself. If you try to shove Nicky into any of the usual fandom archetypes, you’re missing at least half of his character.

Favorite moment: As with Joe, I have a hard time picking up just one single moment, bit I’ll go with the moment he brings up Malta. His whole demeanor while in the lab is fascinating, but I think it’s that particular moment that probably defines Nicky best. They’re in a very though and uncertain situation, and he brings up a fond memory to raise spirits, his own but mostly Joe’s. Idk, I feel like it shows that a) he’s very aware of how other people are feeling/thinking and wants to make it better, and b) he has, at his core, hope (in this specific situation, hope that they’ll make it out, but it relates to his belief that they have a purpose).

Unpopular opinion: I tbh don’t think that time in Malta was a sex thing at all. I in general don’t read them as a particularly sexual couple, but even if they were, I doubt a sex vacation, of any kind, would be something that stands out that much in a relationship this long. Whatever Malta was, it’s a secret between them and I honestly like that.

Favorite relationship: See, this is why I felt like saying Joe’s favorite relationship was Nicky felt like cheating. Because I’m going to answer the exact same thing. I mean, is there any other option, really. Really. The answer is no and we all know it. Anyway. Joe and Nicky lucked out in Immortal roulette and tbh who can blame Booker for being a little bit bitter about it. Anyone would be jealous of such PERFECTION.

Favorite headcanon: Nicky is the most spiritual member of the Guard (Nile is probably on par with him or even more, but she probably has a few years of faith crisis ahead of her). He has a solid belief in purpose and goodness which is much more firm than his original sense of faith, after centuries of questioning it. I also think that while he probably still maintains a somewhat christian view on faith, the years have eroded away specific religions from it. He’s sort of agnostic, but not in a ‘I don’t know if there’s a higher power’ way, but in a ‘I know there’s a higher power, but I don’t care what name it has’ way.

Both

Idea for a story: Okay I’m doing this one like this because it’s literally the same answer for both lmao. Excluding pieces of character exploration and missing scenes and stuff, I’ve got a fic (on semi-hiatus until I finish my exams) about ‘what if instead of speedrun enemy to lovers, they were DUMB and spent like 400 years pining for each other and not seeing the other is in love too’. I’m also lowkey thinking up a Dragon Age AU, which is more of an entire-cast thing that just these two, but of course their storylines in it go inherently together. It’s probably too big a project for me actually carry out lmao. But it’s there in my mind, I have backstories and character classes and everything in the works. Maybe someday.

#kikibluemay #jesus i speak a lot im SORRY #but really thanks so so much for the ask <333333 Im so happy to have a reason to talk about them #Yusuf al Kaysani #Nicolo di Genova #Kaysanova

[lovelikedestiny]

Happy Birthday @gildingthemoon!!!

I wish you a wonderful day to celebrate and all the best in the world! <3 Today belongs only to you and I hope a lot of people tell you what an incredible human being you are!

I want to gift you with a small, fluffy, happy TOG-oneshot and thank you for being an amazing beta who fights against all errors in my drafts and is delighted by the German sayings I still use unintentionally! I’m very glad to have ‘met’ you! I hope you’ll like the oneshot and you’re grinning like a honey-cake-horse as we say here ;)

*throws a big hug at you* <3

The little things

Under the midnight blue velvet of the night in the empty streets of Malta Joe looks like a celestial being and Nicky feels himself enchanted by his appearance. By his wide, flashing smile, those warm, deep eyes which are surrounded by lovely crinkles and radiate so much emotion that Nicky sometimes has the feeling his heart couldn’t cope with the amount of happiness Joe’s very existence has gifted him with.

When they're out and about and the sun makes Joe's golden skin glow and kisses his silky-soft curls with warm rays, turning his eyes into obsidian and onyx, just so much more precious than all jewelry in the world, Nicky occasionally forgets how to breathe. Of course, after more than 900 years, he knows what his love looks like and knows him better than himself, but that doesn't change the fact that Joe is still beautiful. Beautiful and a constant at his side, who always manages to lead Nicky out of any darkness back into the light.

A cheerful, warm constant that walks by Nicky's side tonight and is the most beautiful thing Nicky has ever seen.

He promptly stumbles over the sidewalk and staggers a few steps before he manages to get hold of himself, hears Joe giggling behind him and has to grin too.

They’re not totally drunk. 

The pleasant warmth in his stomach and the feeling of lightness confirm Nicky in his conclusion and he tightens his grip on Joe's hand as the latter helps him regain his balance. They are only slightly drunk, if at all. Drunk? No. Tipsy! That's the word Nicky was looking for. They're tipsy, he states with satisfaction.

"Careful, my heart," Joe says with a chuckle. “We don't want you to fall on your pretty face. It would be a real shame if you’d hurt yourself today. I like the blue shirt.”

"Really?" Nicky asks, lips curled up into a small grin, pulling Joe a little closer, who willingly follows the movement.

"Really," Joe says grinning and lets his eyes slide so clearly over Nicky's appearance that he thinks he can feel Joe's gaze like a delicate touch. “It accentuates your eyes and your shoulders. And those pants…” He flicks Nicky on the ass. "... also emphasize an area of ​​yours that is very close to my heart. I could easily come up with ideas.”

Nicky shudders when Joe looks at him from below through his eyelashes with a look he knows all too well. Heat surges through his veins and he smiles mischievously and nudges Joe's nose. "I hope they are good ideas."

"Hm," Joe hums approvingly and hooks his fingers into the loops of Nicky's belt to pull him closer. "Very good ideas."

It's so easy to tilt his head, angling it just right, and put his lips on Joe’s who has already moved towards his mouth. Flowers of red fire bloom behind Nicky's closed lids, shooting stars of silvery light and suns of golden embers.

He enjoys the passion that surges through his veins, a steady stream that has never stopped flowing since Nicky first kissed those soft lips, which can enthusiastically recite poetry, are twisted in concentration while drawing, can smile so warmly that Nicky's heart glows, showing him how much Joe loves him when they get lost in each other's bodies amid sheets and pillows.

Nicky is convinced that they are doing good in the world. They protect the innocent, they are their shield in battle and their sword when they cannot hold one themselves and he believes in what they are doing. Just as much as he believes in his family, in Joe. But even if they can make a difference in everyday life with their good deeds, there is something essential that should not be overlooked.

The little things.

Like the sultry air that dances around them through the warmth of the day and the dark sky in front of whose midnight blue canvas the moon shines large and silver. Like Joe's elegant artist hands, which he could feel blindly and which lie firmly and securely on his hips and pull him closer to the glowing, muscular body. Like the fruity taste of good wine on Joe's tongue and the salty sweat from dancing on his lips. Like the familiar tickling of his beard on Nicky's chin and the soft texture of his curls, in which Nicky buries his fingers and elicits Joe a rumble, which Nicky catches and tastes in his mouth.

It's those little things that should be cherished.

Distant laughter causes them to break the kiss, and Nicky tries to fight the urge not to pounce on Joe again when he whines softly and tries to hold on to Nicky.

Some time ago it wasn't even possible to hold Joe in public or simply to interlace their fingers. And even if there are still people who make the world more terrible than it could be, Nicky is infinitely grateful that in most countries he is allowed to kiss the other half of his heart. To kiss Joe and laugh and dance and live with him.

As soon as Nicky thinks that, Joe starts humming and grabs Nicky's hands just to rock them gently back and forth. His eyes are soft with tenderness and Nicky can feel his heart cramp from the affection he feels towards Joe.

Even though they have been together for more than nine hundred years and Nicky knows Joe better than himself, there are still new things they learn about each other. New habits that they develop, new preferences that they discover. In moments like these, when it's just the two of them in their own bubble of peace, Nicky finds no doubt about their relationship, their solid bond that binds them invisibly and is as strong as ever.

Of course, he is much older than most people on this planet and accordingly has a lot more experience, but uncertainties still exist. It is not uncommon for Nicky to lose himself in thought because nagging doubts about a decision he has made corrode him from the inside. They make mistakes in their jobs doing good because they are human. Everybody makes mistakes.

Joe is the only thing in Nicky's long life that he never doubted. An indispensable support that gives him security, just like Nicky will always have Joe's back.

Because Joe is his heart and soul.

Too many words to say and too few words to express how Nicky feels about Joe are on his tongue, so Nicky joins Joe's humming before he starts to sing softly.

Nicky has no problem with being the center of attention, but he prefers to disappear into the background and watch everything from there. If you overlook him or he does not attract attention, others tend to underestimate him and his abilities and he has already used this to his advantage several times.

Joe is the only audience Nicky will ever need, and the knowing flash in Joe's eyes and glowing smile are the only applause Nicky really wants.

Although he and Joe often sing songs together - evenings when Nicky cooks and Joe assists him while they use a wooden spoon as a microphone and Joe starts swinging the kitchen towel while dancing are one of the best - Joe stays silent.

Swaying them gently, Joe's whole focus is on Nicky, who continues to sing a song as old as time itself, tied to precious memories that only they and no one else share. Nicky sings for Joe like he often does when Joe asks him to or he sits down in the kitchen while Nicky can't get rid of a catchy tune while cutting vegetables.

Nicky sings for Joe because Joe is the song that springs from his heart and is embedded in his bones.

As he turns Joe around, Joe laughs exuberantly and the sound reverberates in Nicky like the precious echo of a long-forgotten chiming of a bell.

"I love it when you sing," Joe says, releasing Nicky to give him a little applause, for which Nicky gives an exaggerated bow. It is not easy to stay on his feet, but since the alcohol doesn’t exist that long in their body due to their healing, Nicky doesn’t worry too much about his balance.

"I love you," Nicky replies and Joe dramatically presses a hand on his heart.

"People call me the poet, but it's your words that take my breath away, habibi." He winks at Nicky and Nicky is pretty sure that he looks back with a stupid grin.

Nicky doesn't know if it's such a good idea to climb the rock at the side of the street, but before he can change his mind he has reached the top and looks down at Joe, who is watching him with amusement.

"I could take your breath away with something other than words," he says bluntly, enjoying the effect it has on Joe. Joe swallows hard, blushing slightly, which Nicky doesn't even need to see to know it's happening. Just like the dark fire that makes Joe's eyes burn.

"Is that a challenge?" Joe asks roughly and bites his lip with a grin, causing Nicky to almost fall off the stone. He catches himself in time, but would have had no problem with falling into Joe's arms.

"A promise," he corrects smirking and Joe takes a step towards the stone and tilts his head back slightly to meet Nicky's gaze.

"Are you being funny tonight, Mr. Al-Kaysani?"

"With such good company, indeed, Mr. Di Genova."

They both giggle like silly teenagers and Joe raises an arm in the air and paces up and down in front of the stone like he's on a stage. “Standing like a Greek God on a rock,” he begins to recite. "Moonlight pouring over you and you have a beautiful..."

"Cock," Nicky finishes deadpan and Joe gasps and runs into a nearby street lantern.

"I didn't mean to say that!" He protests with a meaningful smile on his face and helps Nicky jump more or less graceful off the stone.

"You thought it, I said it," Nicky says and blinks innocently at Joe, who laughs and sways slightly.

“We complement each other perfectly, huh? Such an extraordinary coincidence.” Joe nudges him right in the side where Nicky is ticklish and the snorting laugh bursts out of Nicky inexorably as he tries to turn away from Joe.

“Didn't you read the contract? A perfect match has to be guaranteed in order to be in a relationship for nine hundred years,” Nicky says snickering and Joe pretends to be amazed.

“I had no idea about that! I always leave paperwork to you.”

Nicky nods, playing seriously. "Furthermore, the contract requires that I enjoy a cuddle at least three times a week."

"Phew, luckily I have received the world cuddler Award."

"I know. I can rightly confirm that you truly deserve this title."

It is uncertain what the night will bring them, they have made no plans. Nevertheless, the random brushing of their hands and the lingering of their pinkies on the back of the other’s hand are certain indications of what the rest of the night might look like.

"I don't need any more than confirmation of my love."

"You deserve all the acknowledgment in the world because you are expensive."

"Expensive? Do you mean ‘worth it’? ”Joe frowns. “Or was it precious? Who knows what we oh! That was an alliteration!"

"What?" Alliteration sounds a little bit like alligator in Nicky's mind, and he really hopes Joe hasn't seen one. "What was what?"

“An alliteration, you know. When we want words which...haha! Another one!”

Nicky follows Joe's gaze. "Where? Oh, that's just a cat."

"Ah, Nicolo." Joe shakes his head slightly and laughs softly to himself.

"What is it?" Nicky doesn't remember saying anything funny. "Do you want to share your thoughts? A nickel for your thoughts or whatever they say."

"I think it was a coin for your thoughts. Or dollars?”

Nicky has to snort and Joe starts laughing too. "It does not matter. We could continue this conversation at home.”

"Continue it at home?" Joe repeats indignantly. "Nicolo, we were in the middle of a conversation about stilistic means!"

"Okay, uh...if you’re able to come up with another alliteration, I'll do the thing with my tongue at home," Nicky says without thinking, completely relieved of the worries the world has in store for them, through Joe's mere presence and Malta as their retreat.

Joe laughs and raises his eyebrows. "The thing with the tongue? Ya amar, I have no idea what you’re ta- oh. Oh.“ When Joe understands, he stops abruptly, eyes widening. “Lima? Do you mean...Do you mean Lima?”

Nicky nods and keeps walking, grinning, causing Joe to pull himself out of his freeze and rush after him. "Do you really mean Lima? Oh my god, you can't just say something like that and keep walking!”

"So you are not interested?" 

Joe almost chokes. “Not intere...Nicolo! It is impossible that I am not interested in it! The thing with your tongue, Lima, sweet heavens! That was...that was…” Joe seems to remember Nicky's condition and squints his eyes in concentration. "On it. How much time do I have?"

While Joe is thinking hard, Nicky indulges in the serenity of strolling and reaches for Joe's hand, which Joe withdraws and places on something else.

"Yusuf?"

"Yes?"

"That is not my hand."

"Oh sorry, I guess I got a little confused in the dark," Joe says, grinning, but doesn't take his hand off Nicky's ass.

It’s the little things, Nicky thinks by himself as he watches Joe muttering under his breath and then throwing Nicky a beaming smile when he has an idea for another alliteration. It’s the little things that make this imperfect world so perfect. 

#happy birthday #gildingthemoon #the old guard #oneshot #take the mistakes as what they are: loving gifts for each of you #this draft had the title 'Nicky and Joe are drunk and adorable' on my laptop

[andrea-lyn]

Thanks to both @aewriting​ and @el-gilliath​ for tagging me in this!

Rules: it’s time to love yourselves! choose your 5 (or so) favourite works you created in the past year (fics, art, edits, etc.) and link them below to reflect on the amazing things you brought to the world in 2020. tag as many writers/artists/etc. as you want (fan or original) so we can spread the love and link each other to awesome works!

Caveat, I wrote a lot this year. For me, I need something to focus on and writing a little each day kept me focused on something, which is why I signed up for four big bangs, a few exchanges, and produced a fic a day for Malex week. In 2020 alone, I’ve produced over 700k+ words. It’s a lot, I know. So it’s a little difficult to decide on the top five, but here’s the ones I think I really was proud of:

1. no regrets if we walk this new road

When Max can’t bring Rosa back on that fateful night, he, Michael, and Isobel embark on a new path that leads to UNM and completely different destinies.

What they can't escape is that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

I was really proud of this one, even though it was also a lesson in pushing past a low response. It taught me to stop putting up WIPs and hoping that comments would encourage me to write the next part and instead to have a completed work ready to go and roll it out swiftly (no longer than a few days between parts). Fun fact, this story has more subscribers than comments overall. I don’t think it’s an every fandom one, just that RNM had hit a point of being such a small fandom, and my expectations were just too high. That said, I also started to appreciate each and every kudos and comment more after this. Anyway, for all the difficulty, I’m still proud of this because I like my alternate s1 take (it’s not my only one, but it’s the one that lent itself better to a full fic). 

2.  I know that we will be fine

Welcome to the system! Here, Coach will make romantic matches so it can learn about what you most desire in a relationship, through good ones and bad. Congratulations on choosing to participate, Alex Manes. Your first match is Michael Guerin. Good luck with the time you've been assigned, and don't forget, everything is leading up to your ultimate match!

This was my final Malex Week piece, which is a Black Mirror AU based on the Hang the DJ episode and it’s pretty much the one that excited me the most. I’m still so proud of what I created and feel like I was able to get in the mood of the episode. 

3.  what a tale my thoughts could tell

They're already half of one another's soul, but after the incident at Merrick's lab, suddenly Nicky and Joe have a brand new connection between them.

It’s the mind-reading Joe x Nicky that I’m stupid pleased with! I’m writing a sequel piece for it (mainly because I wanted to write about what happens when Booker finds out). I think it’s my fave of my Old Guard stuff, and it performed really well, so I’m delighted with that. 

4.  baby, you're gonna lose your own game

Andy cheats at drawing straws, Joe’s a pretty thing, Nicky’s overly possessive act isn’t really an act, and Booker’s like nectar to a bunch of young gay bees.

AKA: It’s 2015 and they’ve been hired to take out a drug runner and the best way to do that is going undercover and running a honeypot trap at the gay club.

I love a good honeypot fic, but I often feel like I don’t pull it off (there’s a Star Trek version I did that I’m still pretty meh on), so I feel like I was able to improve and do it well here! 

5.  General Knowledge

Trust Poe to give him his name, then follow it up with another that means just as much to Finn.

Finn's not sure whether it's him or Poe that likes it more when Poe calls him General.

2020 has been SO LONG that I forgot I wrote some Star Wars this year. I’m proud of this because of the sheer simplicity that my love for FinnPoe still had some legs and I was able to get this idea. 

Tagging @kaydeefalls, @werebearbearbar, @sabrinachill, @insidious-intent, @christchex @hazel-athena, @manesalex, @usbournejez

#meme #fic meme #oh 2020

[milleniaoffamily]

Old Guard Fandom Discourse - This is very long

Hello! I feel it’s time for me to make a big old Fandom Discourse post.

Specifically centering around how people are treating Joe and Nicky’s relationship. The movie has created a beautifully healthy, equal, and loving relationship - and it’s an interracial interfaith gay relationship. That is huge.

Some people, though, have been reducing it to “Joe is masculine strong man he always tops and is super protective, Nicky is soft and cooks and always bottoms sweet little cherished man how cute″

Some people have been making this healthy mlm relationship into a skewed version through their own hetero-normative, racist, sexist, and overall ludicrous lens. I’d like to start off by saying I don’t hate these people. While I hope that you grow and change, the lens that you’re viewing this piece of media through is also the result of of a lengthy history of hetero-normativity, racism, sexism, and otherwise unhealthy mindsets in society. So I can understand how you fell into that thinking but also be better than our history and learn to change your frame of mind!

So lets start on how viewing them this way is actually real unhealthy and bad! First off, people can and are more than one thing! Joe and Nicky are both protective, both soft, both have the capacity for violence, and are both their own person. In acting the goal is to create a real person and become them and I think it’s fair to say that Luca Marinelli and Marwan Kensari have done an absolutely fantastic job. So, if they’ve the done the work to create these characters as if they’re real people, let’s treat them that way. People aren’t just a handful of traits walking around and Joe and Nicky aren’t either. Saying Joe is soft doesn’t even imply that Nicky isn’t. Reducing them down to “One is strong and one is sweet” not only diminishes the characters and their actions but also the work that the actors (and the fabulous director Gina Prince-Bythewood) have done to create interesting and deep people. 

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. When it comes to explicit forms of intimacy, position and who penetrates who has nothing to do with pretty much anything. Not all sexual encounters even involve penetration. The idea that it has to is old and outdated and I’m more than ready to move on. Nicky and Joe certainly are - their relationship is 900 years old and you think they really still only use the same two pieces of anatomy to give each other pleasure?  Even worse is the idea that the person penetrating has some inherent masculinity while the person being penetrated is effeminate. These are two men and even if it was a man and a woman, some men enjoy being penetrated by a woman and some women enjoy penetrating a man. And that’s great! Sexual roles come down simply to preference and they are nothing more. The fact that there’s such an obsession with who ‘tops’ and who ‘bottoms’ and how that reflects on the characters or, G-d forbid, people being discussed proves that people aren’t viewing them as complex humans with duality and variety within them. Instead they’re being reduced down to nothing more than their sexual preference which is often a fluid thing - if a person generally enjoys being penetrated but sometimes wants to penetrate that’s fine, these things aren’t boxes you’re being shoved into no matter how hard people will try to frame it that way. The fact that it’s so prevalent with mlm relationships highlights how people are still forcing this idea that one has to be masculine and one has to be feminine. You know that disgusting “Oh so who’s the wife in the relationship?” joke with gay marriage? This is pretty much just a less in your face version of that. Both can be really masculine men. Both can be really effeminate men. Both can be *gasp* mixes of both because essentially nobody is purely masculine or purely feminine? It’s a gay relationship with two men loving each other for the men that they are. Please stop trying to slot it into your ‘everything has to mirror straight relationships so that I can understand it without shifting my perspective in the slightest’ and instead think about the fact that love is a genderless, sexless thing and everyone will show it in their own distinct way regardless of their identity. 

Now why is it so often Joe who’s the strong, masculine, protective, violent one and Nicky who’s the soft, sweet, forgiving, vulnerable one? If Joe is the penetrator and that’s masculine, why are those masculine traits? If Nicky is the one penetrated and that’s effeminate, why are those effeminate traits? (The answers are sexism and racism, sorry for the spoilers). The fact that the person of color is the being slotted into the “strong man who’ll kill for his love and has explosive anger” spot arbitrarily while ignoring like 80% of what we see of him in the movie isn’t a coincidence. So let’s not be racist and look at that 80% of what we see of him in the movie! We do see him kill people. We also see him hug Andy and laugh with his family. We also see him care deeply for children he’s never met who don’t even exist in reality. We see him profess his eternal love for his husband - not to rescue him or punch people for him, but to be able to reach out and softly touch him to make sure he’s okay. Sometimes people forget that Nicky killed all those men in the van, too. People will also use the “You shot Nicky. You shouldn’t have done that.” line as proof for Overly Violent Joe. In reality, it’s a man who’s just been through trauma seeing his husband, the love of his eternal life, murdered in front of him. What does he do next? Does he give him an extremely painful wound and leave him to bleed out in agony? No. He snaps his neck, killing him instantly, because if he doesn’t kill that man he will kill his whole family. Joe has the capacity to kill and we see it time and time again, but more than that he has the intense capacity to love and feel with a rare external openness. That’s what the other 80% of the movie shows about Joe. Seeing a brown man killing and ignoring the gentle grounding touches he gives or the exuberant joy he expresses is bad enough. Turning around doing the opposite for the white character he’s with is even worse. Yes, Nicky cooks and makes silly bets with his family members and cares deeply about the ones he loves and the vulnerable people of the world who he doesn’t even know - and he also kills. He shoots people, he stabs people, he sleeps with weapons under his pillow, and he protects his family with fierce precision. He’s a sniper. Ignoring this side of him and ignoring the softness of Joe both makes Joe into the harmful, racist stereotype of a violent brown man and turns Nicky into someone incapable who would hinder the team. They all have the capacity for violence and they’re damn good at it and they all love each other in their own ways and Joe and Nicky are both damn good at that too. Ignoring either of those things in either person is diminishing their characters and succumbing to harmful stereotypes.

I hope that this post didn’t come across as attacking anyone - my intention was to point out the harmful discourse and why it’s harmful. As I said earlier, I only hope that we can  be better than our history and learn to change our frames of mind so that we can think of everyone as people beyond the surface traits that our biases make us see them through. 

TL;DR: Sexual roles and who penetrates who has nothing to do with personality, forcing that idea that one is more masculine than the other is both sexist and hetero-normative in a really icky way, not all sex has to be penetrative to begin with, and ignoring Joe’s softness while ignoring Nicky’s violence is racist and diminishes both their characters in the movie and the hard work that that actors and director did to make complex and interesting humans to watch. So don’t do it please, thank you. 

#This post is very long #I had a lot of feelings and needed to articulate them #why make these beautifully complex characters into caricatures of your bias? #please stop that #the old guard #tog #long post #fandom discourse #rant

[fromthefishbowl]

I really hate how a lot of the posts seem to say that Nicky forced joe to go to the club and then forced him to be “okay” with Nazis. Did they miss Nicky immediately wanting to fight the Nazi when he called joe a dog and JOE holding him back? Did they miss JOE saying “one quiet night” when they went after the Nazi? Did they also miss how, in the flashback scene, it’s “we” a couple times and joe literally says to Nicky “you would have never have let her rot there”?

People have focused on him teasing Joe about them not being able to have a night off as though it’s him being evil and a Nazi sympathizer. The lack of reading comprehension, nuance, and general historical knowledge kills me. Apparently them being in the Weimar Republic in 1932 means they should always be fighting each and every Nazi or nazi sympathizer they come across. Even in a crowded club when they’re at the fucking Eldorodo.

And Nicky forcing him to go? Nicky being evil? A Nazi sympathizer? What the heck? Does Joe no longer have any agency of his own? Do people hate joe this much (I know they hate Nicky but they claim to love joe)? Because if Nicky is some horrid character to you (general you)... how do you explain joe loving him so damn much?? How do you justify that in your mind? That you perfect joe loves a (checks list) “illiterate, dirty, villainous, Nazi sympathizer, cold, bloodthirsty” man, and has for centuries? Because that makes no sense to me. If you think half the ship is evil what’s the damn point of shipping it?

Then saying Nicky is out of character... this is CANON MATERIAL. holy shit. If you don’t like canon ignore it. This is reminding me of how, when Gina, Greg, Luca and Marwan, where talking about Nicky is the most open/the heart of the group/etc... these same people called them WRONG. You can disagree with canon, say you would do it differently, ignore it... but it’s not wrong. And fuck, we wouldn’t have these characters if not for Greg. He’s not the enemy just because you don’t like the source material.

I love the characters but holy shit, this fandom is one of the worst I’ve ever been in. No reading comprehension, no nuance, literally ignores history (especially when it comes to Nicky), and tumblr takes from random users are taken as fact.

I feel like this fandom is in love with the idea of making Joe weak, almost a victim, even when it doesn’t really make sense. He is a man in his thirties with agency, an education, means to go anywhere he pleases. I guess there could be an argument for abusive relationships, an inability for him to leave, how even big strong men can go through it, but... it never seems to be the case they are making.

It’s just general dislike for a character while trying to prop up the other. A true case of the “I’m not like other girls” that you can often find in YA novels written by authors who are unable to write their main character without comparing her to another female character. The problem is that it’s often supported by absolutely crazy ideas that are founded on ignorance: Nicky was dirty and illiterate, while Joe was a Renaissance man before the Renaissance.

It’s perfectly valid to not like canon, but it usually happens with medias that have been going on for long periods of time, multiple seasons or entire sagas. In the movie all the characters were written coherently, Andy didn’t switch personality midway through, nor did any of the others. Booker’s reasons were understandable, Nicky’s continuous need to say things through quotable sentences didn’t change, Joe was basically a ray of sunshine until he was betrayed by his best friend.

For the rest... it’s really tiring. The main headcanons are dictated by people who have no idea of how American they sound, how different the rest of the world is from the US, and just how narrow their point of view is. Added to that, there is also a huge Evangelical presence in the fandom, even if it comes from people who have left the church a long time ago.

Nizar received death threats, Lucy was forced to change her url, Odyssxus had to out trauma in order to be left alone, and I have my askbox filled with Americans who want to “educate” me about how the issue of race and ethnicity is seen in Europe despite them being clearly not from a Mediterranean country, ending up to sound like members of one of the far right parties we have in Italy.

I honestly have no idea of what they’re trying to achieve, by harassing people, but... good for them for thinking that their little online power trip is actually political activism.

#fishie answers #anon

[harrynightingales]

Straight male writer: 6 years is nothing to an immortal! Their relationship needs ANGST to be interesting!! Me: am I supposed to believe that these two men, who have been together for almost a millennium, who KNOW that any death could be their last because their immortality isn’t guaranteed, wouldn’t speak for SIX YEARS??? (If the unspeakable happened during that time period the survivor would never forgive himself!)

i'm with you anon!!! i actually have a lot of rambly thoughts on this and now feel enabled to share them because hey, you started it! under the cut because this is long as hell

edit: just as a heads up i read this as anon referring to the writer of the ttt3 moon landing story who to be fair i don't know if he is straight, or just as a general ~straight man writer~ perspective

first of all hard agree that the idea of angst = complex and interesting is really frustrating. i say that as someone who definitely can and does enjoy angsty miscommunication based fic but it definitely strikes me as something a) quite rare for them and b) not at all required for an interesting story. there are so many potential experiences for the anthology writers to explore that focusing on conflict all the time seems. uncreative.

anyways the 6 years comment has been fully disregarded by me. in general i have the approach of picking the canon/word of god comments that i like and ignoring the rest. specifically, it strikes me as the type of thought a writer would have when first writing about immortals, the whole idea that years pass like its nothing because they live so long. i imagine the writer was guilty of the same thing that grucka himself admitted to, of picking something that sounded cool because it was ~possible with immortal characters (in grucka's case, randomly picking 6000 as an age for andy) without actually thinking through the implications and whether it makes sense.

because as i mentioned in my reply (which i assume you saw?), the human experience of fighting with someone you love and not speaking to them fucking sucks. it feels good and satisfying for all of what? a day? and beyond that you just miss that person, especially when they are so intertwined with your every day life the way joe and nicky are. and exactly like you said, why on earth would they willingly put themselves through that when we canonically know how much they value and love each other?? because the way i see it you can fully disagree with someone and be angry with them but still make it clear that you love them by communicating. and the silent treatment is truly just the absence of any sort of communication and i can't imagine a scenario where an argument would be so very important to justify that level of anger to avoid any communication for more than a few days.

to be clear the actual events of the comic are not the main concern for me. i do think the philosophical differences between joe and nicky that are highlighted are interesting and would naturally bring some tension. i even can kind of understand the choice to go silent on each other - joe really eloquently explains his point to andy, but maybe he hadn't quite figured out his own thought process enough to explain it at the time of the original argument with nicky. and the hill i will die on re: joe/nicky's relationship is that it is built on respect, i imagine they would be emotionally mature enough to not lash out in anger and potentially say something hurtful that they can't take back. so choosing to remove themselves from the situation and not speak so as to not make things worse makes sense, as an initial reaction. where it loses me personally is that you can see that both ~activities if you can call them that are really important to joe and nicky. for joe, seeing the moon landing and appreciating beauty and progress in the world, and for nicky, serving justice to more people that caused innocent people harm (the "more" very consciously there because joe obviously also believes in their work and stopping injustice, but in this case they have different priorities past a certain baseline). and going back to my idea as respect as foundational for them, part of that in a relationship is recognizing that what is important and of value to your partner becomes important to you, even if you don't fully understand it. the way that joe so earnestly talked about wanting to experience the beauty of the moon landing and wanting to experience it with nicky makes me believe that nicky would reconsider his priorities, especially taking into account the "once in a lifetime" nature of watching the first the moon landing vs simply the convenience of having the hitlist targets all at home. and similarly, even if joe isn't fully convinced that everyone on nicky's hitlist needs to get taken out, he would recognize how and why that is important to nicky and not allow it to be something that comes between them, because like i said earlier fighting for justice is something they have in common. so in my mind the most in-character ideal response would be "argument of what to do next after taking out the serial killer -> both explain their positions and why that is their priority -> COMPROMISE". 

but ANYWAYS that huge ramble aside, the main plot "fight" of their's is not such a big deal to me, especially since its clear that joe knows nicky will call and its implied that he does shortly after the event of the comics. if anything, as others have said, it just seems FAR better suited for early days in their relationship rather than multiple centuries into it when they would have PLENTY of opportunity to iron out their moral approaches to killing plus gone through Communication In Relationships 101.

it really is just the 6 years comment that grinds my gears. again, a 6 year silent treatment argument could maybeee make sense in like, the first century of their relationship, as they were figuring stuff out and also before they discovered the fact that they can lose their immortality. like you said anon, once they have that information, i truly cannot believe they would willingly waste that much time over something that can't have been all that consequential. and i really don’t understand the argument that “because they’re immortal time doesn’t mean the same thing to them and 6 years is nothing!!” because imo that’s just.. not how the brain works. like they are fully human and process emotions as humans, and the human way is that conflict/anger/stress feel BAD, especially when you’re in the middle of it. your emotions are heightened which would put you on edge and feeling irritable and the brain is absolutely NOT meant to be in that state for an extended period of time. and again, why would they put themselves through that when they could just?? do the grown up thing and have a conversation. what would be the motivation to experience those shitty feelings for 6 years when an alternative exists?? not to mention greg's comment that the two of them had never willingly spent time apart, and even if they were still (indirectly) interacting while not speaking, the emotional distance it would require to be physically next to someone and disregard them like that for MULTIPLE YEARS runs really contrary to the way the relationship is presented. 

that being said i do find this post super funny and i definitely can imagine them going through the motions of "negative" relationship experiences (can you say jealousy and lorenzo???) entirely for the sexual payoff. but again, to take it kinda seriously, even that in my mind would be based on a foundation of understanding that they do love each other and they're not really REALLY mad at each other, just

p.s. i wrote almost this whole thing in a daze about 24 hours ago and then i saw this post which makes a lot of the same points as me so hopefully this isn’t repetitive and i’m sorry op i promise i wasn’t stealing your ideas. nice to be on the same page as others though!

#not tagging bc i don't want this in the tags #i'll do it later i promise