#but throughout all of season 4 they're hanging out all the time and actually have a date at one point.

[girl-drink-drunk]

sometimes canon doesn't mean professing love out loud. sometimes it's saying you don't want to live in a world without the other person and hating the thing that took them away. sometimes it's holding the other person's hand as you die, saying her name and saying she was worth dying for

#i'm not gonna be over this for MONTHS #cassandra and jenkins are canon #i'm sorry but jenkins turned from three other people that he also loves to say HER name #and to say that her cucumber sandwiches from their tea together a.ka #HER #SHE was worth becoming mortal and dying for #like we know cassandra loves him #and even though he turned her down #like literally ten minutes later he straight up says he loves her and yeah you can say he meant platonically #but throughout all of season 4 they're hanging out all the time and actually have a date at one point. #they so clearly love each other and it is practically canon #anyway cassandra x jenkins forever #the librarians #cassandra cillian #jenkins #lindy booth #john larroquette

[byers-bowlcut]

I've seen people say El likes the IDEA of having a boyfriend more than she actually likes her own boyfriend, and jfc it's so true 😭 Like it's all over the show:

Season 1

She's initially attached to Mike because he's the first person to give her shelter, food, genuine human care and just,, not calling CPS immediately. Her feelings for him was born from trauma and dependency in season 1. And throughout the rest of the 3 seasons, we don't see it grow past that.

Also I think it's noticeable in S1 that:

She was uninterested when Mike tried to share his hobbies with her

She also did not seem to mind AT ALL when she questioned if Mike could be her brother. He voice is neutral and curious here, not the least bit repulsed by the thought of being siblings with Mike, like girl does not care 😭

Season 2

This season has zero onscreen moments of Mike and El actually getting to know each other further. They were separated nearly the whole season.

What we DO see:

El's attachment and dependency on Mike that was developed from S1

We also find out how El spent a year of her life watching melodramatic romance films. Many other middle schoolers might identify that relationships in real life don't work like those films. But El is fresh out of lab life, she's literally learning the world through this TV, and has now become obsessed with the IDEA of having a boyfriend/relationship just like that.

Season 3

Again, no onscreen moments of El showing interest in who Mike is as a person.

The very first scene we see of them, she's trying to get him to stop singing along to the song they're listening to. She seems to like kissing Mike. But isn't shown enjoying anything actually characteristic about him, like sharing interests with him such as music.

Hopper indicates that they don't do anything meaningful together either. We see here that before hanging out with Max, El had little sense of her own style, her hobbies, her interests- meaning spending time with Mike for months probably didn't involve many talking points did it?

Also in season 3, El dumps Mike with ZERO hesitation. Then she has the time of her life with Max. The most acknowledgment we get that she's oh so heartbroken is a small frown to Max that her and Mike aren't on best terms. And even that doesn't seem so paramount cause 1 episode later she totally dismisses Mike after he explains how Hopper threatened him. She just tells him maybe Hopper was right 😭😭

It's literally ONLY once she starts becoming in danger that she starts clinging onto him again. I feel like we've seen this film before hm.

Like where are any signs that she likes Mike as an individual, and is falling for who he really is, rather than simply being attached due to trauma, and liking the concept of doing romantic things (ie: kissing, dancing at the ball, etc.)

Season 4

This is the season it becomes the MOST OBVIOUS: El loves the concept of a happy relationship and being loved, but not really loving Mike for who he is. And bringing in Will's feelings just emphasizes this point.

To start, El continues doing all these relationship-y things that she did in the start of S3. She has Mike's name and pictures plastered all over her room. She makes a "Mike box" with his pictures decorated all over it. But the thing is: this is all sort of a façade at this point. We know she's BEEN unhappy with him for months ("From Mike! From Mike! From Mike!"). But with all these items, she's basically trying to convince herself that she's in this happy, fantasy, movie-like relationship, like she probably watched in hopper's cabin in season 2.

And then, there's the sheer difference between her and WILL in their feelings for Mike. We see it right off the bat when Mike comes to the airport: Will and El both have plans to give Mike something.

Will plans to give him a painting he worked extremely hard on. The painting is a connection of what they BOTH love: DnD, and it includes their friends who also play the game. It's very personal and immediately touches Mike. What's more is, the painting illustrates the exact qualities about Mike that Will loves: his leadership, his bravery, his guidance. This painting literally spells out to us that Will truly loves Mike for WHO HE IS.

Meanwhile, El plans on giving Mike a fun reunion date. She has the whole day planned out. And immediately: we see that what she wants to do doesn't actually takes Mike's interests and personality into consideration. You can see and hear the strain in his voice when he talks about "burritos for breakfast" 😬

You can see how he's not that relaxed at rinkomania, and nervous about skating, saying he's clumsy. He probably would've much preferred movies and playing a board game, over skating. But El has her own ideas. When she brings Mike to rinkomania, she tries to act really cool about it. She wants to impress him, wants to seem like she fits in and belongs.

Her present was never actually ABOUT Mike, and about loving Mike that she would plan this huge date for him. Her present was about her desperately wanting to have this cool date like every other normal teen girl might, with a normal boyfriend, and make it seem like they have a happy perfect relationship.

And then finally we reach their S4 fight. I find it extremely interesting how Hopper's cabin is framed in the background during their whole fight. It's almost like an indication that her desperate need to be loved by Mike stems from her trying to cope with losing Hopper and the hole left by him, that clearly did not exist when she happily dumped Mike in S3.

In their fight, when the topic of bullying comes up, Mike says he understands her, but El is quick to say he doesn't. She thinks Mike doesn't understand her, but this is just as much her not understanding HIM as well.

She doesn't get the extent of Mike's insecurities (definitely partially a result of bullying), something that Mike later divulges to WILL and not her. If the writers wanted to show us how much El understands Mike and loves him for who he is, her and Mike would work through his insecurities in their rs together, NOT through a middle man.

Overall it's pretty striking that we've never once heard El actually compliment Mike, or articulate, or even show what exactly she loves about him through four whole seasons. I mean...

Attachment to him due to trauma or grief =/= loving him for who he is.

Wanting to BE loved =/= loving him for who he is.

So really in terms of a relationship, what El ACTUALLY wants is the concept/idea of a regular boyfriend, and a happy easy relationship, all in an attempt to feel normal. And that's why we see them fall apart the way they do in season 4, and why Will is currently so involved. Because Will DOES see and love Mike for exactly who he is.

#eleven hopper #mike wheeler #will byers #byler #analysis on el's character and her feelings for mike #anti mileven #stranger things

[bugsbenefit]

Mike's state of mind and the basement in s4

Mike's basement has been one of the most important and reoccurring locations on the show. it's one of the few places that shows up in Every season, even the one Mike is out of town for. as it's a consistent location it also has very consistent set design throughout the seasons.

so it's interesting looking at it in s4 because for the first time in 4 whole seasons it looks different. and these changes raise some questions. (also a prime example of set design telling it's own story which hasn't been verbally highlighted to the viewer, which is super fun)

1.) the basement is a Mess

like, I'm serious it's BAD

games are lying everywhere, on the table, under the table (something must have changed about the "games are for kids and we're not kids anymore" mindset ig), toys and figures are also just next to the table on the floor. the desk Max is writing on is so cluttered she barely has room to write. there's also food wrappers everywhere. not "real food" as the show calls it but instead mostly sweets. there's even a full box of applejacks and poptarts laying about (poptarts which we also see Mike throw in the toaster in e1, got to love the consistency). on the drawer next to the couch is at least a hint to someone eating "real" food down here in the form of an empty plate with cutlery in it.

so. looks like someone's been spending a lot of time down here. but this isn't bad per se. Messy teenage boy behaviour. Max has been distant from the party, Lucas joined a new club, Hellfire replaced Mike's basement DND sessions, so the overall visiting rate must have decreased significantly over the 6 month time skip. if it's just Mike hanging out here on his own, is it really weird that it's messy?

well, the same season rightfully goes out of it's way to introduce the very real practice of comparing a person's behviour to their previous behavior to determine if it's unusual.

so let's do that. what IS normal for the basement?

here's the basement 6 months earlier in s3:

and, well. it looks perfect. no plates, no wrappers, all games are stored away. the same Simon game we see strewn on the table in s4 is neatly placed next to the drawer. the only remnants of food we see are the cocoa puffs Lucas is actively eating and the sodas on the table they're appearing to be drinking right now. and there's also no crumpled blankets lying everywhere and over every seat either.

the s3 basement looks how the basement has looked in all prior season. neat and cozy. in s4 that has now subtly changed. the basement is a mess now.

it's surface level, not too in your face, but it's there, constantly in the background. Max has to write around all the litter on the table. it's both in your face and completely in the background - and without comparing it to previous renditions of the basement we've seen we wouldn't question it. (very similar to Mike's room in s4. it's an absolute mess, closet open, bed messed up, clothes on the floor, he even ends up just grabbing a worn floor shirt when he leaves. which in itself isn't too weird. "teenage boy behaviour". unless you look at Mike's room in any of the previous seasons which is Very tidy and neat)

the mess is out of character for Mike judging by everything we've previously seen of him.

but if we're already comparing the basement of different seasons, there's also the next point

2.) Mike has also probably been sleeping down here at least a few times

the blanket we've seen folded up in previous seasons is now strewn over the couch and a bed-pillow is restricting Lucas' movement.

if we want to compare again. bellow are the normal couch pillows in previous seasons (screenshot from s1 where you can see all of them the neatest). there is no pillow used for beds in the basement until s4. and then there's also a picture of the comforter hanging over the couch in s3, a loosely knit blanket. which is replaced by the Actual blanket in s4 that was unused in all the previous seasons.

the fact that Lucas constantly bumps into the pillow also makes it clearly thought out set design because it's actively restricting the actors and wouldn't be placed there without reason.

but there is also something general to be noticed when comparing the basement of s4 to it's previous renditions:

3.) the basement lost it's comforting light. it's dark as shit down here now

this is something i haven't seen anyone talk about directly before but it's so jarring. the basement is always shot as a pretty cozy place. but season 4 gets a bit silly and goofy. we see the s4 basement during the day so lets compare that with s3 where we also get an equally long sequence in the day-basement:

this is what we're used to in s3. the basement is actually a very open area. multiple windows, a windowed door leading out to ground level, big enough to have an adjacent bathroom. the basement is a big open space. there's lights on everywhere you can see all corners of the room very well and the light brown colour of the walls makes the room feel warm. but light is also coming through the slightly open curtains and big door-window. you have warm artificial light but also natural sunlight. it's the main hub of the party and feels cozy.

now look at s4:

the basement is dark as shit. it's daytime during both these scenes but they have an entirely different feeling. if you didn't know it was daytime you could also just assume it's night. we never once even catch a glimpse of the door with the giant window, it's kept out of shot deliberately. we only have one angle with a window even in frame and in it the curtain is now completely closed, the plant previously on the window sill is also not visible anymore.

the bathroom and under-the-stairs area is so dark it's almost impossible to make anything out back there. the shadows in this scene are absurd when compared to s3. there are no warm shadows in corners and cozy walls anymore, there's just dark behind and between the characters and you can't even tell the colour the wall has near the bathroom door in s4. the white lamp in the background also becomes a primary light source for once this season, by being center frame constantly + the added lack of sunlight in the scenes, which makes it feel even more uncomfortable and cold.

and if the shadows and odd lighting choices aren't enough. the entire space feels much heavier now. the dark shadows shrink the room away, the hidden windows and door make the room feel closed off and Actually underground, and on top of that, clutter is Everywhere which closes the already tight space even more.

Max is sitting far back in the darkness (because she's cursed and emotionally distanced from the others) so the gloomy lighting of the basement is clearly intentional here and not just a fuck up from the lighting crew. the basement is supposed to feel dark here.

-> somehow the basement lost it's calming open nature between s3 and s4. it's still the hub of the party but it feels less cozy than it once did, it feels closer to suffocating now.

4.) and characters are giving dialogue nudges to that change too

the general change of the basement, both in appearance and vibes is so apparent, but what if it's just supposed to be a fun background detail that we shouldn't pay closer attention to? - well, first of all, you should be paying attention to the sets of ST 100% of the time after what we know they hid before. the set designers really love their job there apparently since they keep putting their whole setussies into these backgrounds (sorry). but also secondly, both Max and Nancy actively comment on it and suddenly it's not only the set design but even the dialogue that vaguely gesticulates in the direction of what the sets are already telling us:

Max, despite having no problem with Mike's basement prior, now calls it an armpit. and Nancy goes out of her way to jab at Mike's (now) messy room by telling everyone it's looked worse before than the absolutely wrecked cabin.

the basement is in an absolute state in s4. both from the way it looks all the way to how the camera work and lighting portrays it. and even later dialogue points out Mike's messy state of living (both his room And the basement are a mess).

Mike's basement has been the central heart of operations since the first seasons and a has been a place of comfort and consistency all throughout. in season 4 it still serves that purpose, however, it's starting to look worse for wear now. it's function is unchanged, but you're able to see that something is different now if you actually pay attention or compare it with what's normal for it. (as s4 kindly tells us to do)

the set design on this show is absolutely amazing but this is really such a cool case of telling a story in the background. even without getting direct dialogue in s4 we can infer that Mike has been spending a lot of time in the basement, presumably also at night, doesn't bother to tidy it up along with his room, and that the general atmosphere of the basement has lowered.

Mike's general off-ness and state of mind are left unaddressed by the end of s4 despite the many nudges in it's direction we get both verbally and non verbally. and the basement is just another part of massive character work done entirely through set design and camera angles/ lighting choices.

#i love the subtle character work the show does to build foundations to their characters #same goes for all the movie posters and background details that show up seasons prior only to end up being Massive foreshadowing #i love set design and behind the scenes work but ST is such a fun show because of how much care consistently gets put into it #stranger things #st analysis #st4 analysis #mike wheeler #mike's mental health

[millimononym]

Aight something i need to get off my mind anout season 2: am i the only one that thinks Sinedd and Rocket needed more time interacting together?? Cause like... Sinedd is the WHOLE REASON why rocket gets into netherball and has his corruption arc throughout the season and i feel that their relationship was kinda rushed?

Sinedd shows Rocket netherball because Harris told him to do it,and Rocket just...TRUSTS sinedd and follows him to a shady ass place even though their only interactions were 4 years prior when Sinedd basically insulted him lol...i get he was depressed because of his suspension but really now

Rocket gets to play netherball and gets his first taste of a corruption arc, and Sinedd is...mad that Rocket is winning??for some reason?? Wasn't that the entire POINT of bringing rocket to netherball? So he can WIN?? I thought Sinedd was only doing this cuz he thought he would be rewarded by Harris, so why is he mad that Rocket is winning when Sinedds whole job was MAKING SURE ROCKET WINS??

Rocket and Sinedd have some weird gay co-dependent relationship tension thing going on where i think both of them realise it's toxic but neither of them give a shit because they're each doing it for their own self gain. Ok i buy that

Rocket, out of nowhere, challenges Sinedd to a netherball match out of what seems to be pure hatred. And i do mean OUT OF NOWHERE, Sinedd didn't even fucking do anything if i remember correctly 💀 idk i just think rocket didn't have a really good reason for it,i get he was selfish and angry and aggressive but that doesn't mean he just has to randomly call out Sinedd like he despises him for some reason

Rocket and Sinedd have their netherball match, and this is where it actually gets violent. I don't know if you remember,but Sinedd WHACKED ROCKET IN THE FUCKING FACE!! i remember it clearly cause it caught me off guard lol. Then Sinedd slips on his ankle like a dumbass and is in pain and can't play in the match anymore. While rocket wasn't directly responsible for sinedds injury, he mocks him and humiliates him. He wins,i dunno what he fuckin got out of it,but he wins regardless

Sinedd continues operating the netherball systems even after he loses his smog post pirates match. Though there's not much he can do now other than netherball. He doesn't talk to rocket anymore, and imma be honest i found it kinda weird that sinedd never really seemed angry at rocket for the fractured ankle other than silent seething. I always thought he'd blame him more for the shadows loss against the pirates, or at least be angry he had to play like that. Cause i remind you, sinedd had to play against the pirates 2 days after he FRACTURED HIS ANKLE

Rocket stops playing netherball and leaves with his team and Tia. He gives Sinedd a smug grin and tells him to deal with the fight happening and just fucking leaves. Straight up abandons Sinedd who at this point has absolutely no one in his life (his coach abandoned him, rocket left and netherball is over. We don't know if he still hangs out with his team or not)

And that's just .... The end of their relationship, no mentions after or anything. Rocket doesn't even comment about Sinedd or the Shadows when they watch the Xenons vs Shadows match. Just makes a comment about Luur. I think this is kinda lame and underworked, since without sinedd, rocket would have never even known about netherball. Would he still have problems? Sure, but i think they would be a lot less intense. Sinedd is the whole catalyst for this seasons problems. They REALLY couldnt have cut something out? I don't really remember if s2 had lots of filler, but they seriously couldn't have cut SOMETHING? i dunno, making fun of Micro-Ice when they refuse to do anything interesting with his character anymore....or 20 year old Micro-Ices relationship with a 16 year old that never goes anywhere and drags on and on...or D'jok repeating his arc from season 1 ALL OVER AGAIN...or Yukis constant insecurities (it was just a bit much, they felt the need to hammer it in over and over)...or the constant discussion of Ahito's illness...or the writers pretending that Mark is an interesting character and giving him screentime when he never was.......i don't remember if the pirates had as time consuming of a subplot as they did in season 1, but I'm sure there was something in there that could be cut. Some of these were obviously more important than others but i can't think of good examples right now

Feel free to add on anything i forgot. Also, all of that got screentime and Mei didn't. I seriously can't remember a single important thing she did that season other than covering for Tia when she left. While Mei isn't my favorite character or SK, she's still supposed to be a main character!! Cmon guys you REALLY couldnt give her even a little bit of screen time ? I think it's the same problem as Micro-Ice, they already had their arcs in s1 so the writers couldn't come up with anything interesting to do with them so they're just reduced to the love interests of specific characters (i think D'jok also had this problem of already having his arc finished so they just ... repeated it and hoped no one would notice lmao) . Also rant in the tags as per usual

#galactik football #sinedd #Rocket #I really don't like Yuki and Mark #Hate to say it but d'jok was kinda right lol Yuki IS a replacement #And mark........ I believe his existence has no justification. He's boring he's lame and he's annoying as hell #He constantly bullies micro ice and while that was obviously intended as friendly teasing...it doesn't come off that way #It has the vibe of a person badly pretending to be friendly so they can tease you and hide it under the guise of it #But everyone can pick up on it and it makes everyone uncomfortable. What did M-Ice do to deserve this constant insulting #Mark you're stupid you're ugly you're boring and you will NEVER be Rocket. Go fuck yourself you piece of shit #Wow that is the most emotion i think i ever felt thinking about Mark as a character. Proves my point further i think

[politelymenacing]

Finished my Series 3 rewatch in time for tonight's ep. Here are my rewarch thoughts that noone asked for.

Series 1 rewatch | Series 2 rewatch

Ted's description of rugby, mighty interesting. Never beating those bi allegations, my friend.

Jan Maas is Certified Statistics Guy (like in La Locker Room Aux Folles)

Oh interesting! Roy's choice of 4-4-2 explained is completely opposite to total football.

I am almost certain you cannot drive your car over that bridge towards the London Stadium, Nate.

I still can't get over Dani's face when he finds out someone writes Paddington's tweets for him.

"Ain't much more scary out there than a creepy clown, right?" Cut to Rupert. 👏

Colin doing down a manhole? Asdfghjkl

We know what Field of Dreams is the UK, man. 🤦🏼‍♀️

Ms Kakes looks like she is dressed as Princess Leia...?? Does this mean she will be part of Rupert's downfall??

OK, but what if the whole thing of Trent writing a book isn't news to Ted and he is just winding Trent up by pretending to think about it. Like they are actually friends now or Trent already texted him about asking Rebecca and this thing is an act.

Can we get an episode of Single Guys Club à la Beard After Hours?

Completely contradicting what I said above, but Ted reading a football book right after he finds out Trent is going to be hanging around... this is the guy who asked him if he could explain the offside rule and asked if he was a fucking joke.

The time on Keeley's phone is 11:09, but they just had wishing time which is 11:11! Continuity!!

Fuck off, Trent Crimm. 😂😂😂

Dani still smiles are Trent when the team are ignoring him. He is a precious pure soul and should be protected at all costs.

People bought Roy white orchids! In Series 2, he questioned how Jamie Carragher knew he like white orchids when he joined Sky Sports. Great little call back.

Again, Keeley's phone says that it's 14:00, but the TV says it's 13:32 straight after. Come on, guys!

Also they say that this game is the start of the season and later Rebecca congratulates Rupert on West Ham winning yesterday.

There's just no way that Roy doesn't know what Hallmark Christmas films are. They're on everywhere here (in July as well as December!) and he's definitely watched at least one with the yoga ladies.

Underrated joke:

Trent's little shake of the head when the rest of the Diamond Dogs agree Julie Andrews is worth fancying... 😂

What's that? Me getting emotional over Trent's reaction to being included and validated by Ted, Beard, and Roy?

The Norm Macdonald name check was a nice nod, but I promise you, the average person in the UK would have no idea who he was.

How did I not notice that when Zava shakes hands with Keeley he kisses his own hand?

What is the choice behind this reaction, Jason??

WILL

Ted popping out from behind Zava is still hilarious.

Gahhhhhh they fucked up the graphics of the table. After the Brentford match it should be played 7 and the points should be 19. (Maybe they have fixed this on Apple since?)

How pissed off is Isaac going to be when he finds out he has already met Colin's bf?

Rebecca's red dress. Oh boy.

Jamie's bit with the make-up artist for the Bantr advert is so cute.

MAY A YOUNG ROBERT RETFORD PORTRAY YOU IN A FILM SOMEDAY.

Oh Nate making a stupid joke that Ted would love and Rupert not getting it (or specifically pretending not to) 😭😭😭

What season is this supposed to be?? The timestamp on the CCTV of Nate said it was 2021 so that would have been the 20/21 season making this the 21/22 season, but Ted's text messages are dated throughout 2022. The latest being to Henry on 28th October 2022.

Beat them. LOL

Nice call back to series 1 of Nate spitting out the martini.

More quotes that make me nervous:

Stop letting the British characters say 'elevator' i beg of you.

I find it so unbearably uncomfortable that boat guy kisses Rebecca's foot. She should have kicked him in the face.

Isaac leopard print socks!

I can't believe they are tumbledrying Rebecca's fancy clothes.

Oh shit. The basketball game Ted remembers watching with his dad was June 1991. That's only 3 months before his dad killed himself. 😩

They were mad for this triangle hallucination business. Honestly.

When Jamie and Roy arrive back at the coach, the subtitles have Jamie saying "You lovely people", but it sounds so much like "you lucky people" and with the voice he does makes me question if it's a nod to a bicycle riding character in Spaced who says the same thing. Phil Dunster posted a video of the "inspiration" behind the bike scenes which was a clip with Simon Pegg who co-wrote the show, so maybe? VERY obscure if it is!

Still angry about Jack defacing the first edition of Sense and Sensibility.

Please learn how to say croissant.

Papa Obisanya looks like he gives such good hugs.

I love how subtly Will sticks his finger up at Jamie.

Another classic Will reaction:

The Good Dads Club:

I fucking love that Colin wore a hi-vis jacket to help clear up Sam's restaurant. Truly committing to the chameleon bit.

I will NEVER be over this:

Thought I would be ok watching this by now, but Billy's face just kills me.

Henry being so excited to see Nate 💔

BEARD AND HENRY 😭😭😭😭

I love Keeley and Rebecca's little head movements when Ted is singing his little heart-bent song. There are so many little moments where characters are in sync with each other's movement this series. Someone should make a gifset.

Ha! I missed this line last time. Drag him, Jade.

Still think Rebecca and Marcus would be cute together.

How can this show end without Sam playing for Nigeria??? IT'S SO FUCKING SAD.

God, Hannah looks so beautiful in blue.

So. Fucking. Fond. Look at his face when Ted is pretending that he didn't realised "The Devil" was Rupert...

Elodie is such a fab little actor. Her face when she works out what the name on Roy's shirt spells is fantastic.

HOW CAN ANYONE CALL SAM UGLY. HE IS SO BEAUTIFUL, PLEASE.

Sam Richardson is so great. I wish I didn't have to hate Akufo so much.

Another episode, another great reaction shot from everyone with MVP Will.

The bit before little Rebecca appears...was anyone else worried that he catching her breath was gonna be some cliché feeling faint because she was pregnant? Still a bit concerned tbh.

asdfghjkl Akufo is wearing a purple suit. Like Willy Wonka!

Oof. The Nathan stuff isn't any easier for me the second time round.

Concerned.

And these have been my thoughts.

#ted lasso reawatch #ted lasso #ted lasso spoilers #i think it is very obvious who my faves are from this #disproportionate amount of Will reactions #oh well.

[cookinguptales]

Is it correct that we witnessed Guillermo talking to Freddie only two times this season, and the last time was in episode 4 before they went to the Night Market? And next week Freddie will just appear out of nowhere? I guess it is alright for the crazy portion of the fans (us), those who know about the leaks and talk about each episode every week here on this silly little site. But I’m curious how the casual fans (has wwdits casual fans?) will react to Freddie’s appearance. In the end I think I just wanted a few more snippets of Guillermo’s boyfriend throughout the season, followed by short clips of a curious & concerned looking Nandor.

It's unclear, actually. We did see Guillermo on the phone very briefly in Go Flip Yourself, but we don't know if he was talking to Freddie or not. It was while "Bran" was on the phone arguing with the permit guy; we see Guillermo walk out of his room on the phone, see the camera, then walk right back in.

I'd say that it's probably implied that Guillermo was on the phone with Freddie if just because the only time we've seen him on the phone with anyone else in this season was while he was planning for Nandor's wedding. (And... I feel like there might be something to say there, but I think I'll hold onto it for now. lmao) And we've specifically seen Guillermo talking to him on the phone in his room and being secretive about it. It's possible he just didn't want to be on camera, but I think he was, again, trying to hide being on the phone.

(EDIT: someone told me this might have been implying that Guillermo was the permit guy? unsure, but it’s VERY funny if so.)

Anyway... I've talked about this before, but I do agree that the way Freddie's being introduced here is very weird, from a storytelling and pacing standpoint. To me, it feels less like a romantic storyline and more like... god, almost foreshadowing? They haven't shown enough real interaction between the two of them for literally anyone to get emotionally invested in the ship (like really all we've gotten is Guillermo hanging up on Freddie as Freddie tries to say romantic things to him) but it would make sense if they're trying to tease us about something bad coming up. It gives real "someone is suspicious on the phone a lot in a murder mystery" vibes, which is... a weird choice.

I really don't know if this is all purposeful or not. If they really want Freddie to be mostly a short-lived (but emotionally turbulent) obstacle to nandermo, the way it's being written makes some sense. He's not supposed to have a deep character; like Marwa, he's largely a plot device.

But if he is supposed to become a major character that we care about... it's weird. It's weird to expect us to get emotionally involved in a pairing we've never even seen. We've missed the entire first several months of the relationship. We don't even know how long it's been going on, much less how they met or got together. We don't know how they interact. We don't know how they feel about each other. And all that feels important when you're trying to introduce a legit romance...?

At this point, it's obviously information that's being kept from us on purpose. The only reason I can think of is if they're trying to hide some kind of twist from us, like when Laszlo very suspiciously tore that page out of the book in s3. (I've said repeatedly that the way they casually mention Freddie but give zero information about him feels a lot like how they kept mentioning Colin's 100th birthday in s3.) The whole thing kind of has a whiff of Chekhov's Gun, y'know?

But if the twist is just that Guillermo has a boyfriend at all, then... yeah, the characterization and build-up feels lackluster. And then you run into the same problem that I feel like they're having with Marwa. It's hard to get that invested in a character who's only there to cause trouble for the "main" characters. She doesn't have much of her own personality, which is purposefully done (and even lampshaded, to some degree) but like... it still makes it kind of awkward when she's onscreen sometimes.

I really hope that Freddie/Guillermo doesn't become a real thing because at this point, I don't see how it could be done well. There's just too much missing that I feel is intrinsic to making a romantic pairing work on a tv show, especially one that's introduced several seasons in. Having Laszlo/Nadja dropped on us in medias res was fine because it was the beginning of the show, they immediately depicted their dynamic and emotional intimacy, and they quickly explored it more thoroughly. We've really gotten none of that out of Freddie/Guillermo.

So like... really hoping he is going to be a plot device. It's still kind of frustratingly thin if he is, but it's a lot better than this being a half-hearted introduction to a regular character. I think the only way he could work as a regular character at this point is if he ends up being drastically different than we and Guillermo expect. (Like, idk, secretly a villain or a vampire or a slayer or something.) Then both of us get introduced to the true Freddie at the same time and the relationship can actually develop onscreen.

Then again... I just hate important characterization happening offscreen, lmao. It's one of my absolute biggest pet peeves in storytelling. It's the one thing that's actually irritating me most this season, as far as Guillermo is concerned. So that could be my own irritations coloring my analysis. lmao

#replies #wwdits #wwdits s4 spoilers

[bibliophileiz]

I want to get my Winchesters theory on the record before it probably gets disproved next week or in the finale.

So in a nutshell my theory is that the akrida are a byproduct of postseason 15 jack trying to remake the universes chuck destroyed in the final season. They can bleed through cracks in time bc of weird universe-making rules existing outside of time or something. We know Robbie Thompson's into messing with time and also I miss when doctor who was good. So something-something time's already screwed a little anyway so jack sends back some time traveling angels to just ... Drop little hints to the humans in like hieroglyphics or the dead sea scrolls or whatever about how to deal with these aliens from independence day. His version of the angel/demon/leviathan tablets. That's how you end up with secret supernatural-studying societies like the mol beating back the akrida throughout history even though there is literally no mention of them ever doing that in spn and in fact their whole thing is non-involvement anyway (except during WWII I guess, which is fair). That way there's not supernatural beings DOING THINGS that they haven't already been established doing and the groups that would be into this stuff anyway just have like, another thing to be into, so instead of killing just vampires they're killing vampires AND akrida. But what about when abbadon wipes out the mol Dean asks jack. Jack is like, idk, maybe Rufus can take care of it. And dean's like I know a hunter. And Jack's like no. And dean's like you killed my mom. And Jack's like ok but they can't know who you are. And so Dean goes down to earth on what is supposed to be a temporary trip to tip John off and then hangs around because when has Dean EVER done what an all-powerful supernatural entity told him to do?

Here are some things in the show that don't NOT support this theory

1. Dean's voice over in the pilot makes a point that the akrida aren't just a threat to earth but a threat to "the entire universe". Which is interesting bc dean knows chuck is going to wipe out all the other worlds in the universe in like 50 years, so what's a few decades give or take?

2. Obviously there's some time travel going on bc dean is hanging around. But it's ANOTHER LEVEL OF TIME TRAVEL to summon the future ghost of someone who is not yet dead, as they do with Henry Winchester.

3. idk how that last one actually supports my theory, it's just super weird and I find it fascinating.

4. The akrida existing are the only thing bringing John, Mary, Carlos, and Lata together, suggesting they may not have all been pals in the original timeline, which means Carlos and Lata don't necessarily die young and tragic like the rest of Mary's friends. This isn't really evidence, just a nice thought and another reason I like my theory.

5. I feel like I had more evidence than this but I can't think of any more

Basically I just think this theory is a good way to make Winchesters take place in another universe without making it ANOTHER UNIVERSE where it's not our John and Mary, the parents of our Sam and Dean. Probably chuck and jack will still have to show up and do some memory erasure of John or something to keep the future timeline from being too messed up though.

#the winchesters #a theory #supernatural #i like this theory bc it means this is still MY mary winchester but also carlos doesn't have to die

[bustyasianbeautiespod]

Episode 76 Transcript: Uriel is the Funniest Angel in the Garrison and the Worst Thespian in All of History

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello. My name is Grey.

C: And my name is Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show several times…

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For today's episode, we are discussing Season 4, Episode 16: "On the Head of a Pin," written by Ben Edlund, directed by Mike Rohl.

C: This is a big one. [G: Big one.] What does the title mean, actually? It doesn't come up.

G: I suppose it's like, you know, because it's angel v angel, so it's like, dancing can be-

C: Fighting?

G: Fighting, yeah.

C: Sure. Okay.

G: So they're dancing on the head of a pin this episode. I like the title of this one. And like, I know that nowadays, in- and even back then. Like, Supernatural fandom has always been very conscious of like, title names and like, writers. Like, you say a scene, and everyone is like, "Oh, yeah, that scene is in Episode blah blah blah written by blah blah blah." And it's like, you know, people are very aware of the writers and everything. [C: Right.] But even before I was involved with any fandom whatsoever, this episode, I remember as like, this is an episode I remember. And I remember it also as being written by the same guy as "The Man Who Would be King." And like, I don't even know why I had that like, conscious thought or like, I paid enough attention in that regard to have that conscious thought before I got into the fandom of it all. But yeah.

C: It's important.

G: It's important. It's true! I mean, Ben Edlund has been swinging back and forth between being our enemy and being our friend, [C laughs] and by being our friend, I mean like, being fine. [both laugh] So he's swinging back and forth in between being our enemy and being fine. But this episode-

C: He's our friend this time.

G: Yeah, he's a friend of this one. And like, a big part of it is that it's so- it's like, our first angel-centric episode, like, really. Because all of the other ones- I think I mentioned it last episode like, Cas would just show up for like, five minutes or like, halfway through the episode or whatever. The angels are never the center, the focus. Like, when we open this episode, and it's Cas, like, the first scene is Cas [C: Uh-huh!], and it's like, you know, I think about like, "Oh, what must people have felt when this was first airing?" And they see this and it's like, "Okay, we're in the big one! This is the big plot one!" And I mean, it is. It is the big plot one. It's crazy. I suppose because they don't interact with much people we don't know prior,there's also less of the annoying "Ugh, the Winchesters are hanging out with people! I don't wanna-" like, [laughs] "and they're being so annoying about it!" part, too. So I think that's a big part also why it's so- like, it's nicer to watch. [laughs] 'Cause you don't have to deal with the everything else.

C: Yeah. Right, there's no humans in this episode [G: Yes.] besides the two of them.

G: I think, actually, this is a really good follow-up to last episode, don't you think?

C: Yeah, yeah. I mean-

G: Like, the discussions of being special and all that. 

C: Yeah. And, you know, "Whatever the angels have in store for you, it's not actually good. Stop lying to yourself." [G: Yeah.] All those ideas get explored here.

G: Like, I mean, throughout this episode, I did feel like, empathy for Dean. I'm like, "Good lord. That's horrible! [laughs] that reveal must have been horrible. That responsibility must be horrible," and all that crap.

C: I guess? Sorry. [laughs] Still no.

G: I mean, it wasn't like, my main thought.

C: [laughing] When he got all upset, I was like, "Okay. And? You didn't know." He didn't know that that was going to break the seal. Why does it matter?

G: Well, it matters because it did!

C: Well, I just- I don't see how that's relevant. [both laugh]

G: It's not important to his journey. [laughing]

C: It's not. It's not important to anyone's journey.

G: No, I actually- I felt a lot about this episode. I don't know. This gets thrown around a lot in the Destiel circles. I mean, I don't really recall how people interface with it as a Destiel episode, but like, it's not. And I also like that about it. Like, Cas's struggles and all that is like, removed from Dean in some way. [C: Mm-hm.] They do interact, and their interactions are good, like, I do think their conversations are good in this one. I mean, it's kind of like- What do we mean when we say "It's a Destiel episode"? Like, "It's like, obviously romantic" or whatever?

C: Just that their connection seems to be the focus of the episode.

G: Yeah, that's true. So that's going to be our definition of the term from now on. [C laughs] Like, moving forward, it's their connection. Yeah. Their profound bond, even. Yeah. And this one, there are aspects of it here, but I like that It's so Cas-y. Like, it's so Cas-centric. [C: Yeah.] Oh, Cas is so wonderful! [laughs]

C: Yeah, and I like Anna and Uriel in this episode a lot, too. [G: Yeah.] I think they're all much bigger in my head than Dean was.

G: Yeah, exactly. Like, I think this is what we said about that episode that we liked and was rated so low. The magicians one. What's it called?

C: "Criss Angel is a Douchebag."

G: Yeah, the old guy yaoi. [C laughs] And it's like, that one, it's like, it's barely about Sam and Dean, and that's why it's good. And I suppose it's rated low because it's barely about Sam and Dean, in the not plot way. [C: Yeah.] But this one is like, barely about Sam and Dean in the plot way. And also, I mean, I also said last time, right, like, what makes this stand out in your head, like, what makes you remember it is the atmosphere of it. And agh, wonderful. Wonderful! It's a wonderful episode. I quite like it. So what did you know about it going in? Obviously, like, everything, probably.

C: Yeah, I mean, obviously, I knew about the flickering halo streetlamp shot [G: Agh, yeah!], most important thing that's ever happened. I know that it ends with Cas having a conversation with Dean in the hospital where Dean talks about like, letting down both of their dads. I knew that this was gonna be the episode where Sam's demon blood drinking gets fully revealed, and that he like, saves Cas with his powers on Alastair. I know that Cas says, "I would give anything to like, have you not do this" or whatever before he tells Dean that he has to go torture Alastair. And then I guess just the gist of Cas's conversation with Anna, and how he asks her to tell him what to do, and she refuses. [G: Yeah.] So yeah, just most of it.

G: I think those are the big parts. But also, like, every single scene in this episode with Cas in it, like, every single shot of Cas, is like "that's an iconic shot." Like, [laughs] and then the next scene happens and you're like, "Wow, that's also an iconic shot of Cas."

C: Yeah. For real.

G: You go through the profile pictures of every Cas girl on the Tumbles [C laughs], it's probably gonna be from this episode, you know? Yeah it's that iconic. It is. Yeah. Oh, they really go ham on the halo imagery on this one.

C: Yeah, yeah, thank god.

G: It's like, the lowest hanging fruit of having an angel character, but like, I mean, I love fruits, baby! I love to pick them. [C laughs] So it's fine.

G: So the "Then" sequence is like, very Anna-centric, I would say, but not in the like, way you would connect with the character. It's kind of like, the plot of her, you know, the plot of her presence in the show, and it really focuses on the "Oh, she's an angel now." Because I do think that is a little bit hard to recall. Like, that's not the first thing you remember because the last time we actually interact with her is, she knows she's an angel, but she doesn't have her Grace, and so now it's like, "Oh, she has her Grace." Although we don't really see it this episode.

C: I mean, it ends on getting her Grace yet, but yeah.

G: So, you know, like, it's just at the tail end of the episode. We don't really interact with her as an angel with her Grace back. [C: Mm.] I mean, we also still don't. And I actually quite like that. Because, like, they really make a point of having Cas, like, move things telepathically a lot this episode, but you have Anna, who doesn't do that at all and like, actually touches Cas. And it's like, you know, it's wonderful to me that this whole episode, Cas doesn't touch anything. I mean, you know what I mean. [C: Yeah.] Like, when he's trying to like, move something the pipes, whatever, he just telepathically does it. Then you have Anna, like, reaching out to him, and that's something that he's like, offended by, almost. Yeah.

C: Yeah. I mean, she teleports and makes the lights flicker, but you're right that there's like, less of her power showing off this episode. We also get some Sam recap in the "Then" sequence. I mean, to lead up to the demon blood reveal, like, we have the part where he tells Ruby, "It's not the psychic thing I have a problem with." I guess, like, we've probably already discussed it when it actually happened, but, like, do you have further thoughts on that ? Like, what does he actually think is so bad about drinking demon blood? 'Cause that's like, the big thing of Season 4, right? [G: Yeah.] It's like, "Oh, what Sam's doing is like, probably evil. We're not sure. Oh, we're pretty sure it's evil." But like, what's supposed to like, really, really hammer that down is like, "He's drinking demon blood, and that just automatically is an evil action"? [G: Yeah.] And it's like, what is that ?

G: Because you can say that like, "Oh, it can lead to like, further bad things," like, you know that, nurse that he bled out or whatever at the end of the season. [C: Yeah, sure.] But like, that doesn't happen yet. And also, like, Ruby's vessel is like, that's just her. There's no one in there. So no one's suffering in that way.

C: And they don't give a shit about the vessels anymore. [G: Yeah.] Like that is very clear with like, everything Dean's doing to Alastair later.

G: Yeah.

C: Like, there is a guy there. They don't give a fuck. So it's not about that.

G: Not at all.

C: Okay, I guess Uriel is the one who has the talk with Sam, where he's like, "Your mom died because Azazel wanted to force demon blood inside of you, and now you're just like, doing the same thing voluntarily with Ruby." Right, so I guess that's something. Just the association of that with Mary's death.

G: Yeah. To Sam, that makes it fundamentally bad. To us, I don't know. But like, yeah, to Sam, that can be like, a reason why. Though I feel like that's a bit weak.

C: Yeah. Mm-hm. I agree. It doesn't feel like the same thing, exactly. And I mean, okay, in Season 2, we have, you know, Sam, following the psychic kids and being like, more and more afraid that, like, all of them like, "go bad," all of them end up killing people. One could claim it's the [both] demon blood that makes them evil.

G: Although I presume that's the- you know.

C: Are we supposed to think there are actual mental, like, effects?

G: No.

C: Like, are we supposed to think that, like, Sam getting arrogant in Season 4 is partly because of like, the demon blood being mood-altering in any way?

G: I don't think so. [C: I don't think so.] Because, like, we see like that guy who like, has the giant bong. He seems pretty cool.

C: Andy? Is that his name?

C: Yeah. Does he end up being a murderer? That's not him, right? That's Ava.

C: No, Ava kills him before he can be a murderer.

G: Sad! He should have been a murderer. [C laughs] Well, I mean, we can see from the episode like, the different kids- those different- like, them. [laughs] What's the term they use in the-?

C: [laughing] Psychic kids.

G: Yeah. [laughs] The different psychic kids have different reactions-

C: [laughing] It's so funny when people call us Samgirls. True Samgirls would never. [G laughs] But yeah.

G: Yeah, I'm so sorry. But like, you know, the different psychic kids had different reactions due to situation, and like, Ava seems very into it, but like, I don't think that's a demon blood thing. I think it's just she was there for a long time, and she-

C: Yeah, her fiance was killed like, pretty brutally.

G: Yeah. And she's really into it.

C: Like, we all cope in our ways.

G: Exactly. I don't think it's directly that, but maybe Sam can think it, although I don't think he does. I think part of it is just the surrounding accoutrement to it, which is that doing this means he has to lie to Dean, and- Well, only that, I presume. Like, doing this means he has to like, hide it, which may make it feel like, guilty. You know, there's the aspect of "Oh, if you're- why would you hide it if it's bad?" which Dean has brought up before.

C: Or "Why would you hide it if you think there's nothing wrong with it."

G: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that one. Yeah. And it's like, "Oh, it's because Dean will judge me," but also, "Dean will judge me because Dean thinks it's bad," and it's like, it just piles onto each other. So I don't know. [C: Yeah.] Like, it is uncomfortable to lie to a person who is with you like, all the time, so.

C: Yeah, I guess it also makes Sam like, dependent on Ruby [G: On something, yeah.] in a way he wouldn't want to be.

G: Yeah, which is what they lean into.

C: I mean, not necessarily because he could just like, go around and then like, suck the blood out of demons. Like, he does do that, doesn't he? So he's not actually that dependent on Ruby, but you're right that they do sort of lean into it where it's like, now it seems like he really really-

G: A drug allegory.

C: Yeah.

G: I mean, also, they hunt- they do hunt vampires, and this is what they do. What do vampires do? Do vampires literally just drink blood?

C: Yeah.

G: Well, I mean, this is like, the same thing, and if vampires are worth hunting, and then- you know. But that's different. Because those people need it to live. And Sam is like-

C: He needs to feed Lilith, so that everyone in the world can live.

G: So it is a need for him too. Yeah, exactly. I do think strongly it's just that the hiding aspect of it is, like, frustrating and difficult, and makes it feel worse than how Sam would feel if he didn't have to hide it.

C: I guess. But also, I feel like we're talking about like, Supernatural here, right? [G laughs] And I feel like for Supernatural, it's like, the language of like, biological impurity is pretty big in Supernatural. Like, I feel like it is just like a-

G: "We're tainting-" yeah.

C: - instinctual, like, "Eugh!" thing. Just, yeah, like, "You're tainting your blood with like, the inferior blood of like, the evil demon race." Like, it feels like they're leaning into that rhetoric and just expecting the audience to like, understand that and like, sympathize with that rhetoric. Which, like, is another reason, I guess, why the whole "Sam is evil" storyline just doesn't really work for me in Season 4.

G: Yeah.

C: But yeah, I think there's probably a lot of things mixed up in it.

G: Of course.

C: Okay, I guess the one other "Then" sequence thing that I thought was odd was that the line that they kept from Pamela was, "I know what you did to that demon," and not the part where she says, "If you think you have good intentions, think again." Like, why?

G: Yeah, because then it makes-

C: Why would Pamela knowing be important? She's dead. [laughs]

G: I think this is supposed to like, do the whole, "And it's not just exorcism now. Like, it's killing," whatever.

C: Sure. Okay.

G: Yeah. But also it makes it seem like what Pamela had an issue with was like, [laughs] killing the demon instead of like, whatever it is she had an issue with, which is pretty funny to me personally.

C: "That demon was my pal! How could you?"

G: No like, you know how like, later, when Sam is torturing Alastair and Cas is looking at him like- I mean, we'll talk about what Cas looked like in that scene later. [C: Hot.] But like, I kept on thinking like, "This is what you like, wanted. Like, you wanted Alastair tortured to get info out of him." [C: Mm-hm.] Like, you can't judge Sam for doing what you were like, already doing.

C: Yeah, like, it's okay to do it, using like, physical torture with knives and shit, [G: Yeah.] but like, as soon as Sam uses his powers, it's like... bad? Okay, I don't get it. If you say so.

G: And that's kind of the vibe of the Pamela line here. It's like, "It's okay if you kill the demon with, you know, stabby stabby."

C: I mean, Dean says, "Hey, use the knife" in "Metamorphosis."

G: Yeah. "Or if you exorcise a demon with your words, it's fine. But once you start waving your hands around? [C laughs] No-no-no-no-no." And it's like, "Okay, well, I don't fucking know what we're doing here."

C: Yeah, we just still have not seen any evidence that the blood is-

G: That it's bad, yeah. [laughs]

C: - like, actually changing Sam in any way besides giving him powers. And like, maybe the idea is that we're just supposed to know that it comes with a catch 'cause it has to 'cause demons are evil, but, like, I don't know that!

-

G: We start with Cas, as I've said. [C: Cas!] First scene of this episode is Cas. And like, I just find it so funny that, like, [laughs] whenever we talk about a previous episode before that was just okay until Cas shows up, like last episode and "The Great Pumpkin" episode, it's like, [laughs] you know, like, you could actively hear us be like, "So like, oh, yeah, we're just waiting for Cas to show up" when we're talking about the scenes. [laughs] And now, like, Cas is literally here. He has shown up, first go. This intro is actually- it's iconic to me. I remember it. I mean, to be fair, I remember, like, all of this episode. But this intro, specifically, I remember watching it and thinking, "That's cool!" when we pan out at the end.

C: Oh, absolutely.

G: Yeah. This is the first time we see an angel die, right? And so this episode is the first instance of the wings like, being burnt in this way.

C: Yes! God. Such a good idea.

G: And it's such a good choice. And like, the thing about Supernatural is you can say anything about it, and I literally do mean that. [laughs] You can literally say anything about Supernatural. But the way they handle the imagery of the angels, like, the physicality of it, I do find it quite impressive, always. Like,the wings part specifically. The fact that Supernatural never shows the wings, it's always just shadows, I think is such an excellent choice. Because, like, I just don't- I just think like, you need like, a high budget, and like, amazing execution to be able to pull off having physical wings like that. But like, even then, it's still so present, even though you don't actually see the physicality of it. It's still present. You know that Cas has wings 'cause you've seen it, even though you haven't seen it. When these angels die, you know that they're angels who had wings because you see it! It's imprinted on the floor, burned to the ground. Oh, wonderful! I mean that we're not there yet. We're just with Cas, and he's walking. And it's like, in this dark night, and there's like, a bunch of cars, and they're crashed into each other. And Cas is just walking through this. There's like, alarms blaring.

C: He turns a car alarm off. [G: Yeah.] Even though, like, the cops are already coming, so like, I guess the only reason wouldn't be that the sound bothers him, and I love that.

G: Yeah. I love it! Yeah, he walks towards this woman who is on the ground.

C: Guess what color dress she's wearing? [G laughs]

G: Literally, my first thought was like, [both laughing] "They put this fucking angel in this white nightgown-ish outfit."

C: Yeah, and she's blonde. [G: She's blonde.] She looks a fair amount like Mary, I think.

G: Yeah. Like, Supernatural is never beating the white nightgown allegations. Like, I genuinely do think they're never going to beat it.

C: Right, like, okay, so she was on Earth, like, battling people [G: Yeah!] in this? Bad idea! I don't get it.

G: 'Cause Anna is an angel, yes, but she was human for a long while, so when we see her, she's in her human outfit.

C: Yeah. And I think with Cas and Uriel, they both are just sort of wearing what their vessels were wearing when they like, possessed them for the first time.

G: Specifically what I'm saying is like, when we do see angels like- I don't know. Like, Naomi had a vessel, too, but like, that one is like, she's dressed up corporate style. And then you have the- I don't know, there's an angel in Season 6 who shows up and reprimands Sam and Dean for using Cas. She's in corporate attire. I feel like Hannah was in corporate attire when she was in a woman vessel. Raphael, when he was in a woman vessel, was in- you know what I mean. [C: Right, yeah.] And so this one kind of feels like an exception to the rule of like, all the angels are in corporate wear.

C: Yeah, I get that they like, just wanted it to look really cool for their first angel death, and I do think that the like, dress helps with the burnt wings and everything.

G: Yeah, 'cause it's like, a stark difference.

C: I mean, she's part of their garrison, and their garrison has been on Earth for thousands of years, like, all fighting together, right? is the history that Cas talks about with Uriel. [G: Yes.] So like, yeah, I feel like realistically, she wouldn't be wearing this.

G: So yeah, lady's on the ground, and Cas moves over like, a piece of cloth that is covering her middle of her chest, and we see that she has a stab wound a little bit below her neck.

C: That's below where the Grace is, right? Like, the Grace, is closer to the Adam's apple area.

G: Yes, I think the Grace is like, at the base of the neck, almost. This is not a removing the Grace thing. This is like, she's being stabbed to death. [C: Yeah.] And Castiel looks at this and goes, [James Charles-esque voice] "Goodbye, sister." [laughs] It's James Charles here. [C laughs] He literally does not say it like that, though.

C: That's a great "Jensen Ackles doing Misha Collins impression" impression.

G: Cas goes to leave, and we see a bunch of police officers just looking at this scene and going, "What the hell?" And then we swoop up. There's like, bunch of flashlights going around, like, looking at the area beside her. And as the flashlight pans around, we see that there are links seared into the road. Wonderful!

C: Yup. The timing of all that is so good. Because it's like a bird's eye view shot, and you just like, see her like, as a spot of white against like, this, like, [G: Dark night, yeah.] dark pool of black, and then just the flashlights just like, move and overlap with each other just so, and then you see the wings, and it's so cool. It's so cool. [G: Yeah.] They don't always do that in the future, do they? Like, when, like, Miriam died, did they bother to like, have burned wings?

G: They only do it, for, like, dramatic stuff, I feel. I mean, when Cas died while getting stabbed, they didn't even wing him.

C: God damn.

G: Is that true?

C: Like, at the end of Season 12?

G: I don't know. Maybe that's a lie and I'm lying to you.

C: I just feel like I would have seen like, ten million Cas burned wings shots in like, AMVs [G: That's true!] if we got to see a Cas burned wing shot. Like, I know that there's like, a Jack one 'cause I see it.

G: People will parallel the hell out of that, if it like happened more than once for anything, yeah?

C: Exactly.

G: I think we have it here, we have it with Uriel later.

C: Godstiel. The field of burned wings.

G: Oh- oh! Yeah. I mean, that scene is wonderful, but it's colored in a way that if you put in it an AMV [C: Yeah.], it looks so odd.

C: It's ugly.

G: Yeah, it's bad. Which is also my main complaint with the Purgatory Season 8.

C: Of course.

G: Like, I genuinely feel like they were comfortable enough to make it that gay because they were like, "And nobody's gonna be able to put it in their fucking AMVs [C laughs] because it looks so bad."

C: Literally.

-

C: We cut to the Impala, and [both] Sam's driving! Hello!

G: And immediately I was like, "Okay, what are the like, implications of Sam driving in this episode?" Because they cannot just let that guy drive. It needs to have a reason. I guess it's to-

C: It's to continue the "I'm stronger than you, I can do things you can't" thing.

G: Yeah. Which is also the topic of the conversation while he's driving that like, Dean is too upset, too tired, blah blah blah.

C: Sam is saying that they're going to Cheyenne to meet with Ruby. You know, he starts being like, "I know you don't really like her, blah blah blah," but Dean's like, "IDGAF." It turns out that what's on Dean's mind is Pamela's death.

G: He says, "I don't really give a rat's ass," which, like, I mean, he's said this before, I think. For sure. This is like, a typical Deanspeak. Is it like, something people say?

C: Yeah, I've heard it other ways, around.

G: Okay, okay, great. Yeah. There are so many phrases in Supernatural that I have to guess whether, like, people actually say it or like, Dean says it. [C laughs] And sometimes I would use it in real life and like, people would be like, "Oh, where'd you get that phrase?" [C laughs] Because, like, you know, even if it's common in the United States, for example, like, it's not gonna be as common in the Philippines. And I have to be like, [laughing] "Oh, it's an American saying." [C laughs] And I just pray to God that like, it's an American saying and not a Dean saying, and if they Google it, the first result isn't like, "What did Dean Winchester mean by this [both laughing] when he said it on Supernatural?"

C: Well, "rat's ass" is safe.

G: Rat ass. Don't give a rat's ass. Yeah.

C: Right, so what Dean's upset about is Pamela's death. He says, "Pamela didn't want anything to do with this, and we dragged her back into it." And I guess Sam's sort of just compartmentalizing really hard, right? [G: yeah.] I mean, it does suck that like, he was the one who, like, woke up at the moment of her stabbing, so like, he probably feels more responsibility for like, not being there on time. And also, like, her last words were to him, and were like, pretty soul-shaking for him or whatever. So yeah. He's just going like, "She knew what was at stake." Dean says that he's tired of burying friends. Like-

G: Who the hell else do they have to bury in Supernatural?

C: And also, Pamela we talked to her- we saw her like, three times before this? [G: Yeah.] Also, who else was it? Who else did he bury? I don't think he did.

G: Is there anyone else that they bury in Season 4?

C: Not that I recall.

G: Season 3.

C: Who in Season 3?

G: No, I'm asking like, [laughs] who did they bury in Season 3.

C: Like, Bela died, but they didn't like her. Gordon died, but like, Sam did that shit. [G laughs]

G: Sam caused that to happen, yeah. [C laughs] [C: Yeah. Ugh.] Henriksen died. But that's in Season 2.

C: Yeah.

G: Is that in Season 2? No, that's in Season 3.

C: No no no, "Jus in Bello," yeah, that's in Season 3, and Dean did like him.

G: Did like him eventually, yeah.

C: And he did show up as a ghost in 4.02.

G: You mentioned the other day you don't think Dean is a friend person. Like, you don't think Dean just ever defines anyone as a friend, and I've been thinking about it. Because the only other person we have outlined here, aside from Pamela, is like, Henriksen, and I think [laughs] Dean wanted to fuck that guy. Like, genuinely.

C: Yeah. And I feel like Pamela, like, we were supposed to think that, like, both of the boys were attracted to her, and she was attracted to them back in some way.

G: Not even that. To me, Pamela is more of a like- it's a friend buddy, you know? Like, I don't think they're calling Pamela to talk to her about their days or whatever. [C: Right.] To like, "Oh, I saw a snail on the road. Effervescent." her, you know? [C laughs] Like, I think she's someone they call when they need something for a job. And that's fine. Like, it's a fine relationship to have to Pamela.

C: Yeah, she's a work friend, just like Sam and Bobby. [G laughing]

G: Yeah. Dean and Bobby is like, "That's my dad." [laughs] And Sam and Bobby is like, "That's my boss, dude." [C laughing] Like "That's a librarian that I met."

C: "That's my manager. He's really mean to me sometimes." [G laughs]

G: No, exactly. But I don't know. Like, I mean, obviously, it's fine if Dean calls Pamela his friend. Like, yeah, they did go through shit or whatever. But you're right that Dean doesn't develop what we typically think of as a friendship relationship with like, anyone. [C: Yeah.] Until we get to Charlie, I suppose. I would say Charlie is a friend, although they also make it a point of being like, "Oh, Charlie's like, my sister." Which, yeah, typical Dean! Does Sam have any friends?

C: Does Sam have any friends. [laughs] He used to.

G: He used to, yeah.

C: He had Stanford friends-

G: Those college friends and everything.

C: Yeah. Like, we open with him having friends. He was friends with that kid who got bullied in "After School Special."

G: Yeah, he was friends with Brady. We haven't met Brady yet. When the hell are we gonna meet Brady? I don't even know who Brady is. Like, I know Brady is like, a college friend, but I only know him from like, people who are like, "Oh, my headcanon for Brady is," and I have no idea what he is in canon. I'm so sorry. I know we're allegedly Samgirls, but like, it's literally not true. [laughs]

C: No one thinks that except for like, Deangirls.

G: Exactly. In the future, I feel like him and Eileen were friends-

C: Is Jody a friend?

G: - before they were something, but like, I think we would be called hypocrites for saying that because we're saying that Henriksen and Dean were not friends. But [laughs] literally, Henriksen and Dean were not friends. And Sam and Eileen were calling each other and everything. That's a different-

C: Right. Henriksen was trying to put them in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives-

G: [laughs] Yeah, exactly, until the last-

C: - until 20 minutes before his death. Rowena. Rowena's gonna be his friend.

G: That's true, but also, I think they should fuck raw, but that's just me personally, and also everybody.

C: Yeah, I mean, Sam and Eileen and Sam and Rowena were both like, friends who should fuck raw.

G:  Yeah. But that doesn't mean they're not friends, I feel like. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] They're still friends. They just also should fuck raw.

C: Jody? Is Jody a friend?

G: I think Jody is a friend, although I don't really remember much of the Jody-Sam-and-Dean relationship-

C: Yeah, nor I.

G: Mostly because I think the bulk of that happens in "Asa Fox," which is in Season 12, which is the season where I sort of lost my mind.

C: Okay, Dean supposedly had his friend in the- in "Sin City." The guy with, like, the New York accent or the whatever?

G: What the fuck is "Sin City"? We already watched that, and I have no recollection of what it is.

C: Yeah, in 3.04.

G: Ohh! I still have no idea.

C: The guy- the guy with the New York or Boston [G laughs] or something accent. I literally am USAmerican, I should know this.

G: Both of them are kind of buddies with that guy, right?

C: Well, no, he was someone that Dean had done a solo hunt with in the past but Sam had not met yet.

G: Oh, okay, is this the guy with the nice shirt? He talks about having a nice shirt? He's like, "and the shirt's silk, bro" or something. [C: Yeah.] Good for him. I mean, as I was saying, Dean also had another hunter buddy, the one in like, "Just the good old boys." What's that?

C: Lee? You mean that guy?

G: What everybody thinks he fucked. [laughs] Which doesn't really help our case. But no, that's a buddy, that's a friend. And you know who else is his friend? [both laughing]

C: Are we doing this? Again?

G: It's Cas, baby! I think Cas is his friend.

C: I mean, not yet.

G: Not yet, yeah.

C: I mean, Sam and Cas are also friends. Yeah, no, I mean, all of them are pretty bad at friends, and all- like, Dean especially likes to fit his friends into the family paradigm instead of the friend paradigm. [G: Yeah.] And also, you know, a lot of the people that he's close to, he just seems to see us his responsibility rather than like, a companion.

G: Yeah. And I mean, their being bad at friendship we see bleed over to Jack when he literally [laughs]- he makes friends with those kids and like, kind of stabs one of them. Good for him. [C laughs] I miss Jack already. We haven't even met him in the podcast yet.

C: His ideas of friendship came from like, Riverdale or something. [G laughs] I'm sure those kids stab each other all the time. They're also like, canonically in a polyamorous, like-

G: Is that true?

C: - four-person relationship for a bit.

G: Yeah, maybe he saw those- I don't know. Those lesbian people-

C: He saw this kiss and was like, "Oh, okay, I see what's going on. We're all dating now? Yeah."

G: [laughs] Exactly. He was like, "I know where this is going. They did it in Riverdale." [C laughs] What's that? The Greater Boston Polyamorous Circle? That joke that people-

C: The Greater Seattle... Polycule, yeah.

G: Yeah, exactly. And he's going to enter the Greater Seattle Polycule.

C: Alright. Anyway, so,yeah, Dean says this line that doesn't really make that much sense, and Sam's still, you know, pushing, like, "Okay, and then we do this, and then we do this," and Dean says that he's just getting tired. And Sam says, "Well, get angry," which I love!

G: Which is interesting. I thought that was an interesting thing to say, 'cause the next scene-

C: Dean's angry.

G: They enter-

C: He heard that advice and was like, "Yup. On it."

G: Dean was like, so angy, and the whole time, Sam is kind of like, trying to stop Dean from being like, "Dean don't be so mad." And it's like, this is the people that you're probably supposed to be angry with! Like, for fucking real! But like, Sam doesn't think of it that way 'cause Sam thinks that, like, the path to the Apocalypse is what's killing their friends, and so they need to stop the Apocalypse. [C: Right.] But to Dean, it's like, the angels not helping-

C: "You're putting us in danger," yeah.

G: "The angels not helping is what's killing our friends." And also, I guess a big part of it is that Dean had that conversation with Cas where Cas explicitly said, like, "We sent you to do this." So.

C: Yeah, okay, Sam's "Get angry" is fun to me. Just 'cause like, I don't know, I guess I'd sort of forgotten how revenge-driven he's been for a long time. I mean, we saw him get quite revenge driven at the end of Season 1, and then we saw "Mystery Spot," which is sort of like, a look into what his first few months after Dean's death were like. Maybe this fits into what Pamela was saying about the good intentions, but it's like- I feel like we are like- He's trying to kill Lilith to save the world, but I guess he started trying to kill Lilith for revenge for Dean's death, right? Like, do you feel like that's still what's primarily motivating him now? Like, what is he thinking?

G: I wouldn't say it's number one motivation right now, but I'm sure it like, helps that like, "Oh, and she wronged me personally."

C: Is saving the world his primary motivation, though?

G: I don't know. Because I think about it, and it's like, Episode 2 is the reveal that the world is ending in some way, right? Like, that's when Cas said it. That, like, Lucifer, is going to rise if we break all the seals or whatever.

C: Sam doesn't seem to like, step it up at all.

G: Yeah. And also like, prior to that, he already was like, having conversations with Ruby about like, upping his, you know, skills. And also, like, he did spend all of those months hunting down Lilith. Like that's the reason why he got intimately involved with Ruby because of that journey of getting to Lilith.

C: Okay, like, Season 3, it was like, the war on the demons 'cause like, they all got released from the gate, yada-ya. That is sort of dropped in Season 4, but it's like, "All the demons coming out of the gate is what makes it so that they're speeding along the Apocalypse better." So I guess it could just be a continuation of the war of Season 3.

G: I think what happened there is like, there was like, war between those demons, and then Lilith came on top. So like, that was dropped because now it's like, "Oh, we have one specific target now. All of those demons have coalesced." Is that the term? Coalesced means go together, right? [C: Yeah.] They coalesce into being like, under Lilith, right?

C: Yeah. And then I mean, she engineered the Dean going to Hell thing so that the first seal could be broken so that the Apocalypse could happen. Yeah, so I guess it is all sort of the same thing, so it doesn't really mean that much that Sam didn't step it up after 4.02.

G: But I don't think Sam knew that Dean was sent to Hell to start the Apocky-lypse.

C: That's true. Sam doesn't know at the end of this episode, either.

G: Yeah, I don't think so.

C: Sam ends up knowing what the first seal is at some point, right? Does he?

G: I actually don't know. I don't remember. I don't remember

C: Okay.

G: Yeah.

-

G: As they come in, Sam opens the lights, and Uriel and Cas is there, and the way they are positioned is. [C: Mm-hm.] Like, Cas is kind of like the attack dog on the side that's like, a little bit on the back, facing away from them.

C: He's quite far on the back.

G: Yeah, far on the back, facing away from them, even. Uriel is the one doing all the talking. Uriel says that "You are needed." And Dean gets upset with this, and Uriel starts doing the whole, like, "Okay, mind your tone with me." He acts pretty much the same way he has acted in the past, although I do feel like now, he is acting with more amusement than anything regarding Dean. Like, I feel like in the past, it's kind of like, when Dean talks like this, he was kind of like, a bit more offended, like, genuinely. And then, as the time progressed- like, we see this with Anna, too. With the Anna eps too. - Like, he's kind of just like, "Huh! Look at you. Like, this guy thinks he can talk to me like this." Sam explains that they just got back from Pamela's funeral, and Dean's like, "Yeah, Pamela. You remember her?" And then he starts talking to Cas directly. He goes, "You remember her Cas, right? You burnt her eyes out." Yeah, he says, "She died trying to save one of your precious seals, so maybe stop pushing us around all the time." Uriel says, "We rescue out of Hell for a purpose," which, I mean, Dean's contemplating on this. And again, as we've said, this episode interfaces with that. But, man. Horrible! At some point, Cas goes, "Dean, we know this is difficult to understand," and Uriel goes, "And we..." and like, gives a pointed look at Cas and faces back at Dean, and goes, "don't care." And like, the look that is happening in this situation is like, Cas is looking at Dean, and then as Uriel says this, just looks back ahead, away from Dean.

C: He turns around so like, he's like, fully in profile, and sort of tilts his head up, like he's trying to make himself into a statue.

G: [laughs] Exactly. And Dean notices this, and we linger on Dean noticing it. 'Cause Uriel has said before that like, "See, he has this weakness. He likes you. The reason why I'm here instead of Cas is because," like, "Upstairs don't want him talking to you directly anymore because he's fond of you in some way." But like, this is, I think, the first evidence we see of it being true to Dean. "Oh, yeah, like, the reason why they're doing this whole bit where Uriel is doing the talking and Cas is just standing there and Uriel stopping Cas from saying this is because Cas likes me," which does massively inform his decision to talk to Cas later by himself, I think. Uriel says that seven angels have been murdered from their garrison, him and Cas. Last one killed tonight! They think it's demons. Sam is like, "If a demon can kill angels, how the hell are we supposed to fight it?" And Uriel's like, "Oh, that's not what we need. We just need to find who it is." And Cas starts to move forward and starts talking. He says, "We don't need to hunt down a demon. We already have a demon. Alastair. We just need him to speak."

C: As he's doing this, he's sort of like- he's trying to keep a very open expression and like, make eye contact as he like, sort of leads up to what they're gonna ask of Dean. And that, coupled with the "We know this is hard to understand" thing is nice. Like, he's like, been observing, and he's like, I'm gonna try to take like, the "human" stance, the, whatever the "making Dean trust me" stance to do this.

G: Dean makes a comment that like, "Oh, it's it's going to be difficult to make Alastair talk 'cause that guy's like, a back black belter in torture."

C: Have we already talked about how it's like, it is actually weird how fast Supernatural jumps to torture?

G: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

C: Like, it's like, "He won't talk? Okay. Well, I know what the only logical next step is." I don't know. I mean, it's a common trope in like, all media forever and ever, but, like, you know, like, confessions extracted under torture are not reliable, etc etc but Supernatural really likes to legitimize it as the only way to get monsters to talk.

G: Yeah. And Uriel says, "Yeah, and that's why we have come to his student. And you happen to be the most qualified interrogator we've got." And throughout this scene, we don't see like, from here onward until the very end when Dean gets teleported out, we don't see Sam at all, and it does frustrate me. The reveal that's happening here is that they're asking Dean to torture Alastair 'cause Alastairis like, the head torturer of Hell or whatever, and he taught Dean to do it. I understand that this is like, important to Dean's journey or whatever, but I feel like it's also pretty important [overlapping] to Sam's. Later, he makes the argument that, like, Dean, is not strong enough to do this, and I feel like if we are able to glean in this scene that like, it's because Sam understands the implication of like, "This is the guy who tortured Dean and taught him to torture, so like, surely, this isn't just like, 'I'm torturing a demon.' This is like, a personal thing, and he won't be able to do it because it's a personal thing," I feel like that would inform Sam's words more or whatever. [C: Yeah.] For an episode that is like, big on the Sam reveals, we get nothing of Sam. But like, it's fine, because we also barely get anything of Dean, even though it's big on the Dean reveals. Again, like, this is not about them. This is not an about them episode. But I wish in this scene, just one shot. Just one shot of Sam. Cas starts doing the convincing. "You're our best hope." And Dean goes, "Nope, you can't ask me to do this, Cas." Not this.

C: Dean loves to make it personal.

G: Yeah, he does. I mean, when's the first time he said "Cas" to Cas face? Have we had that conversation?

C: I remember it was during a time when we were really angry at Dean so we couldn't appreciate it properly.

G: No no no, that's different. That's him saying that to Sam. Saying like, "But Cas said that you're doing something evil" or whatever in "Metamorphosis." But like, Cas's face, is this the first time?

C: Uh, I can check. Yeah, this is Dean's- Well, Dean's first "Cas" was earlier when he was like, "You burned Pamela's eyes out, remember?" [G: Yeah.] And Sam calls Cas "Cas" to his face earlier than Dean does!

G: When this scene was happening, I did keep thinking like- 'cause, like, the first "Cas," the "Oh, Pamela. You burned her eyes out. Remember?" is before the "Dean, I know this is difficult for you" or whatever part, which is the part where Dean is like, "Oh, something's happening to Cas." I don't know. He starts doubling down on it like after that part. He just does it a lot this episode. I don't know. I think about this thought I had quite a while back, where like, throughout a lot of the times Dean has made a plea to Cas over anything, it's always like a "Because it's me!" He does it Season 8 with the "Goodbye Stranger" scene. Like, he goes, "Cas, it's me." Like, that's the plea. "I know you're in there. I know you can hear me. It's me." And it's like, no other argument is made other than "It's me, Cas. When the angel tablet thing fell through and Dean is mad at Cas for it, and he goes like, "Oh, you didn't trust me!" And then he repeats it. He goes, "You didn't trust me." So like, the whole point of the "Oh, you ran away," the mad part isn't even that he lost the actual tablet. It's that he didn't trust Dean specifically. In like, "The Man Who Would be King," he goes, "I'm asking you not to. Just 'cause." And like, the implication there is like, "Because I'm the one asking, and because I'm asking you to." Like, "I'm just saying it, which is what should make you not do it." I don't wanna make it seem like this is a conniving thing for Dean. But I do think, as you said, that he thinks of the people he loves, people he thinks is important to him as like, responsibilities. And part of that is like, also thinking that their responsibility in the relationship is to like, follow Dean in some way, you know? [C: Mm-hm.] For Sam, we see this in that, "Oh, but like, you shouldn't drink demon blood or whatever. You shouldn't go be with Ruby. Because I think it's a bad idea. Yeah, maybe I don't have like, the data to back it up. But like, I think, and therefore you should." With Cas, the moment he realized that Cas cares for him, that becomes the same argument with him, too. "You care about me, and I think, and therefore you should." And I feel a little bit like this is the moment he realizes that this is something happening.

C: That he can use.

G: That he can tell Cas, like, "But it's me. And I'm telling you this."

C: Yeah, I don't really see that, but I like the reading. I don't really see it. I feel like it's too early [G: Yeah.] for him to think that way. I think, right now, he's just straight up angry and scared.

G: In this post that I made about it that I'm currently referencing- I'll probably reblog it- I say that like, in "Lucifer Rising," the last ep of the season, like, Dean argues to Cas, like, "No, we need to save the world. If there's anything to die for, it's this. Saving the world." And Cas is still like, "No no no no no no." The moment he decides to turn around is when Dean goes, "We're done. [C: Hm.] Don't talk to me. We're done." Yeah, he does like Dean. And to Dean, it's like, "Oh, the core of the relationship is that Cas likes me and will do things for me because of that. Because I am the one asking." Again, like, the tag I left on this post is "this is not deancrit." [C laughs] I don't think this is a bad thing. I think it's just like, at the back of Dean's head, this is one of the thought processes that informs his decisions moving forward in this show.

Uriel says, "Who says anything about asking?" Zaps Dean away. And this is the only time we pan to Sam's face.

C: Who gives the most overacted "Damn it!" I've ever heard.

G: Yeah. [dramatically] "Damn it!" Good for him.

-

C: So we cut to some like, creepy old building where they're keeping Alastair. He's like, chained up in a devil's trap and all that shit. Dean and Cas are watching him through the door. Dean just is not having it. He is trying to head out. As he walks past Uriel, Uriel stops him, and he says, "Angels are dying, boy." I love the way Uriel calls Dean "boy." Like, he really does think that he's superior to all humans. And he's right. [G laughs] Dean replies with, "Everybody's dying these days," which, you know, continuation of earlier. He says, like, "You know, I get that you can make me do whatevs, but like, you cannot make me do this." You know, Cas tells him that it's too much to ask, but like, "We have to ask it." And then, like, Dean, sort of- he makes some calculations, I think. And then he says that he wants to talk to Cas alone. And, I mean, currently, it's like, "He's the weak point. I can get him to like, let me go, or whatever." I think later in the conversation, it becomes more of like a, "I trust Cas to be the one to tell me how necessary this really is." And I'm not entirely sure when it switches, but, interesting.

G: I do find also that the moment like, Uriel leaves, Dean starts joking. Like, I mean, it's still a serious conversation, but he goes back to his usual Dean banter.

C: I mean, he jokes about the donuts while Uriel's leaving, so I don't think it's just that.

G: Yeah, but that's a different tone. You know what I mean? Like, he's saying it's spitefully to Uriel. The moment he goes to Cas, it becomes a bit more friendlier, I suppose.

C: So Uriel says, "I think I'll go seek revelation," [G: Fun!] which is a great way to refer to like, listening in on angel radio or whatever. He's looking for further orders. And yeah, Dean says, "Well, get some donuts while you're out." You know, Uriel laughs, and he says, "This one just won't quit, will he? I think I'm starting to like you, boy." Which is fun. Like, he likes how predictable Dean is is what it is, and that's fun. I enjoy the way that familiarity can breed fondness, even if it's like, begrudging or like, mostly tinged with annoyance. I'm just sad that Uriel dies this episode. I want him back.

G: I do too.

C: They bring so many people back, right? But like, he doesn't ever?

G: Do they bring angels back other than Cas?

C: Gabriel- Does Gabriel not die and then come back or something?

G: Oh yeah, Gabriel comes back. "I need you!" What the fuck? [both laugh] No, I already said my Sabriel piece in "Tall Tales," and I was allegedly quite nice about it, so I'm not going to taint that experience. [C laughs]

C: Right, when Uriel disappears, Dean makes some joke about how "You guys don't walk enough. You're gonna get flabby." Cas doesn't laugh, and Dean's like, "You know, I'm starting to think Junkless has a better sense of humor than you." Maybe he didn't laugh because you're not funny.

G: You're unfunny. You're not funny.

C: Like, have we considered it? Also, like, just Uriel is called Junkless? Like, he thinks all other angels are fucking and sucking; it's just Uriel who's not? [G laughs] Like, what's the deal with that? Yeah, okay. And then we get, you know, the most important line that's ever happened all of Supernatural, which is, "Uriel is the funniest angel in the garrison. Ask anyone."

G: Wonderful.

C: He literally is the funniest angel in the garrison. But like, everyone in the garrison is dead [G laughs], so I guess it's not that much of a contest.

G: Yeah, it's Cas or Uriel, and you know, Cas pretty killjoy.

C: Not funny.

G: Just like Sam Winchester. He does get funnier in the later seasons, I feel. [C: Yeah.] He develops a sense of humor that is so endearing.

C: Yeah, I mean, he learns how to be funny from Dean. It's just that like, because he's the one delivering the jokes, like, it's funny. And also because he's not misogynistic.

G: He also is like - I mean, I don't wanna be like, "Oh, Cas just like, funny in that he's not intentionally funny." I do think he's intentionally funny sometimes, but like, a lot of the- you know, like, when he goes in to cut off Pestilence's hand or something, and they were like, "How'd you get here?" and he goes, [seriously] "I took the bus." [C laughs] Like, you know, that's like- he's just saying a fact. Like, he literally just took the bus, though, for fucking real. [C: Mm-hm.] Yeah, stuff like that. I do think his humor is very deadpan in a way. Aw, I love Cas! He does get funnier later.

C: So Dean, like, sort of does something with his face to like, switch into "real talk" mode, and then he walks closer to Cas, and he's like, "What's going on, Cas? Since when does Uriel put a leash on you?" I feel like, yeah, the first "What's going on, Cas?" sort of seems like he does sort of care and is sort of concerned. But then the second sentence, sort of, I feel like, solidifies it as like, he's trying to separate the two of them, put an obstacle between the two of them so that Cas is more willing to let Dean go.

G: Again, I'm sure Dean is subconsciously thinking this, but I don't think it's like, the conscious thought. I mean, it's true, but like, it's not a conscious thought. I think it's more of like, he does genuinely believe that, like, he can change Cas's mind if it was just Cas here or if it was Cas who is like, doing the negotiations with Dean, it would be easier. So like, this question legitimately is like, "Why is Uriel the one talking to me? It should be you," and like, you know, the implied thought is "Because I'm sure you'll listen to me, probably, more than Uriel will."

C: Cas says, "My superiors have begun to question my sympathies." Who are Cas's superiors? What is the chain of command?

G: I actually don't know.

C: 'Cause like, Anna was his boss, but like, she's gone. Who replaced her?

G: I think Cas replaced her. Cas is now the head of the garrison.

C: Okay. So like-

G: Who was before Anna? Who was like, on top of Anna before? I don't know, actually. So like, the general Heaven command, maybe? I don't know.

C: Dean asks, "Your sympathies?" And Cas says, "I was getting too close to the humans in my charge. You." Crazy line! Crazy line.

G: Because the way this is delivered, he's looking at Dean directly.

C: And there's not a pause between "charge" and "you," like, besides, the amount of pause that you need for just a regular sentence. [G: No, yeah.] Like, he's not emphasizing it, and he's not holding it back, or something. [G: Yeah.] I don't know. It just feels so much about- it feels like how you can't feel shame for something that you don't have a name for yet

G: Exactly. This is just a statement of fact. It's not like, a reveal of emotion. Like, you know, to Cas, this is like, it's not something he is ashamed of. It's just, "Oh, and that could be dangerous, because it can lead to doubt." And like, you know, it's delivered in such a straightforward way. It's delivered in a way that is so "I'm just telling you, it's a statement. It's a fact."

C: Dean does seem a bit taken aback by this, though.

G: Yeah. Do you think Dean understands that like, this is like, unique to Cas? I mean, 'cause like, the only three angels we've met at this point is Cas, Uriel, and Anna. Anna seems-

C: Anna wanted to fuck him so bad.

G: Yeah, Anna wanted to fuck him so bad. Uriel's an asshole to him. And Cas is, like, seems like a reasonable guy sometimes, so like, maybe Dean doesn't really comprehend that, like, the way Cas is interacting with him and talking to him is like, weird. Like, this is weird for an angel to do with a human.

C: Right. But yeah, but now that, like, his superiors are being like, "Cas, you're being like, way too weird," this is when Dean's like, "Oh. This is different."

G: Yeah. Also, I mentioned looking straight ahead because the rest of this line is, "I was getting too close to the humans in my charge. You. They feel I've begun to express emotion. The doorways to doubt." And then he turns and like, looks away, in kind of like a, as you said earlier, like, looking away, and then like, holding your chin up high, kind of like you're making yourself into a statue. He goes, "This can impair my judgment." I don't know. It gets to me that him saying that "Oh, this can impair my judgment" and then turning away in that moment to look away from Dean and go back to his like, stoic self that is like, so closed off, almost, is like, "Oh, and now, what's happening right now is not impairing my judgment at all. Like, telling you this, not impairing my judgment at all. This, having this conversation, not impairing my judgment at all!" You know, because, like that's kind of like, the implication of the looking away to me.

C: Yeah, "I'm just telling you this 'cause you're asking. It doesn't mean anything for me."

G: Yeah. Again, he treats it like a statement of fact and not a reveal of emotion. Oh, Cas. [laughs] Your judgment will be so impaired, buddy.

C: For a man in jeans. I mean, Dean is sort of aware- I like that, you know, he says, that just emotions themselves are the doorways to doubt. That's just the issue right away. And like, we already knew that in 4.10 'cause, like, Anna said that in Heaven they can't have feelings, and they like, have to be cold and like a marble statue and have only obedience, blah blah blah blah. But like, it's nice to have that continued here. And okay, another thing that Anna said in 4.10, that's like, so crazy, now I think about it, is that she said, that "We have to take that"--like, the orders that they get and stuff from God--"We have to take it on faith, which we're killed if we don't have." So like, the whole like, "You're getting too close to Dean, get away" stuff, that's like, step one of the like, "And then if you get to this point, we're just gonna kill you."

G: Yeah!

C: Yeah. So, as you said, Cas turns away again into his marble statue pose. Dean, he like, circles around to talk to Cas, and you think that it's like-

G: To make Cas look at him? Yeah.

C: - to make Cas look in his eyes again, but like, he doesn't. He continues through the circle. And now they're standing so that Dean's looking at the door, his back to Cas-

G: And like, his shoulder, yeah.

C: - yeah, is like, a 90 degree angle away. So they're both like, looking like, like, what? Like, 270 degrees away from each other, basically?

G: Yeah. And Cas is by Dean's shoulder, like, a blurred-out vision on his shoulder. Aww! [laughs] What if the angel on your shoulder is telling you to torture some guy? [both laugh] It's horrible!

C: Dean says, like, "Tell Uriel or whoever, you do not want me doing this, trust me." And Cas says like, "No, we don't want it, but I've been told that we need it." Agh. He's been told. [G: Yeah.] So like, he doesn't even know. But like, Dean is still starting to get convinced just by that. Just by Cas being told. But also, I guess there is interpretation that he kind of also wants to do the torture. Like, he doesn't, but he also does. [G: Yeah.] He tells Alastair later that he's been dreaming of it, so I think that's part of what's going on here, too.

G: I mean, do you think that's true? Or [laughs] is that just torture talk.

C: I don't know. I mean, he does get creative with it. That does imply some forethought.

G: He does say that like, when he was in Hell, he liked it. Like, he liked- yeah. And I guess here, it's like, he hates that he likes it. Like, "If you put me in there, and then I realize that like, I still do like it, I think that's going to be real bad for everyone!"

C: Yeah, he says that if, like, he opens that door and walks through it, like, "You will not like what walks back out." And then Cas says, like, you know, crazy line. Crazy line. "For what it's worth, I would give anything not to have you do this." You just met the man! What does that mean?

G: Cas is like, so taken by Dean.

C: Yeah. And I guess it's like, his default state in heaven, like, while he's- you know, post-all his mind wipes and stuff - is just like, no emotion. Even if this is like, not that much emotion, it's like, the only one he has, so.

G: I mean, also, there may be some form of protectiveness over Dean. 'Cause that is a guy he raised out of perdition, you know? So it's like, "I went through all that trouble to get that guy out of there, and what? We're just going to break him."

C: Right. And also he said that, like, what his garrison did, like, laying siege to Hell, was to prevent Dean from breaking the first seal, so like, he probably spent like, months or whatever, fighting, just thinking like, "And I really don't want Dean to torture people." so [G: Yeah.] it probably does feel cognitively dissonant to be like, "And now we're telling him to torture people? I spent so long trying to get him to not torture people!"

So yeah, Dean closes his eyes, and then we cut to inside the room, 'cause it's torture time.

G: Yeah. They really will just do torture in Supernatural.

C: [laughs] They really will.

-

G: So we enter the room. Dean is wheeling in a cart. And Alastair is still there, tied up, chained up onto the whatever that thing is. As Dean is walking, he starts singing a song, I think, called "cheek to cheek," and, ohh. That like, singing really brings out like, something in me. Like, I'm like, "Yeah, that's real bad!" [laughs] And so, yeah, I quite like it. I quite like it. He actually does like, deliver a bit of like, some lines later in a sing-songy manner, too, and like, I think it really adds to the vibe! Takes off the cloth off the cart, and it's a bunch of like, rusty torture materials. [C laughs] And I was like, "Dude. Yeah, you're gonna torture this guy. And then what? You need to get a tetanus shot? [C laughing] You're gonna die of tetanus?" And he literally did. He literally did fucking die of tetanus.

C: Yeah, no, that wasn't because of the rusty nail in that barn. That was just like, the Season 4 shit. Yeah, Cas had been healing him like, all the time because of all the tetanus that he was getting from like, this episode, and then finally, like, after Cas finally, like, fully, truly kicked it, like, it's over for Dean. The tetanus finally got to him.

G: Yeah. It was a ticking time bomb. Like, Dean was gonna fall out of tetanus at some point, [C laughs] and he did! And Alastair, you know, is laughing, giggling, twirling his hair if he was able to reach it. He goes, "Oh, sorry! This is very serious, like, very emotional for you and everything. Yeah. But, like, God, are they serious? Did they really send you to torture me?" And yeah, Dean starts the whole like, "Tell me the name. Tell me who's killing the angels." And Alastair says, "You think I'll see all your scary toys and spill my guts?" And Dean goes, "Oh, you'll spill your guts one way or another." Which, I remember this line. He goes, "I just didn't want to ruin my shoes." I remember this line. I mean, again, I remember this episode so well. It's not even an episode I frequently rewatch, but yeah. I don't know. Dean just starts torturing the guy. I don't know what to tell you.

C: Yeah. There's nothing particularly important. It isn't even like, worse than anything else we've seen on this show, but like, we're just supposed to think it's worse.

G: Yeah, I do like the line where Alastair says like, "Oh, you think you can like, get to me? You left part of yourself back in the pit." And then he goes, "Let's see if we can get the two of you back together again, shall we?" Implying that, like, what he left in the pit was like, the part of him that was like,the torture. And now, like, in this scene, we're gonna get that Dean back. The connotation of like, the words, "You left part of yourself back in the pit," like, Sam used it later. "He came back like, missing," or something. As Dean is like, preparing his stuff, Alastair drops that like, he also tortured John, which Dean does like, hear, and it does, I don't know, spark some interest in him.

C: Right. 'Cause [laughs] John escaped and went to Heaven at the end of Season 2. Remember?

G: What the fuck, even? [C laughing] What a weirdass season. But that scene was so- And they the, like, benevolent smile bullshit?

C: Yeah. Hilarious. Right, while we were on hiatus and doing RubbishPod, Danica did ask me like, "What's the like, ratio of like, humans to like, demons torturing people in Hell?" Like, there's no way that there's enough like, humans in there for every demon to like, get a go.

G: I mean, some of them are crossroads.

C: Some of them are crossroads. Yeah, okay, but like, how many? What is the like, job allocation in Hell? Like, what percentage of the demons are primarily doing torturing?

G: I mean, also, like, there's not gonna be a lot of crossroads demons, I feel like. [C: Yeah.] I feel like they're not super in demand. It's not a rising industry.

C: Yeah. I guess, like, some of them go on Earth and possess people and like, kill people for funsies, but like, it seems like Hell doesn't like them to get back up there, because, like, you know, Meg's always been like, "It's such a pain like, when I get exorcised to like, claw my way back up to Earth." Because isn't it like, the ratio of like, dead people to alive people is about like, 14 to 1 or whatever, right? And I'm assuming most people break. Like, I don't think that there are people who like, never, ever break.

G: I mean, some people also go to Heaven.

C: Yeah, sure, but I'm just saying that overall, like, I'm saying, like, there's probably like, 14 times more demons than like, humans in Hell. Approximately. [G: Yeah.] Is it just like, 14 demons to one person, and they like, only have to do a torture session like, biweekly? [G laughs]

G: They do rotations? [laughs] Bro.

C: Are they a team? Yeah. Do some of the torturers there go, "Oh, I'll let you practice torture on me, bro." Like, what's the- [laughs] What's the deal there?

G: You know, some of these- they're just TAs. [laughs] Like-

C: I mean, Dean was a TA.

G: Dean was literally Alastair's TA. [C: Yeah.] That's actually a very interesting question. I don't know. The Hell economy is in shambles. [C laughs] Unemployment is at a massive high.

C: RIP. Very sad that Dean couldn't just be one of the unemployed people down there. Like, those people are having a great time. Like, they're not being tortured. They're not torturing.

G: They have demonic powers.

C: Yeah, they're probably just like, playing cards with each other. Good for them.

-

C: We cut to the motel room in Cheyenne. We see Ruby again! Hi, Ruby! It's been a while. [laughs] Genevieve Cortese is still not a good actress. [both laugh] But it's fine.

G: She literally isn't, though! But, you know, we live, we laugh, we love.

C: Yeah. You know, she doesn't really want to be here because there's angels around, and she also doesn't see why Sam needs to find Dean because, you know, it seems like it's a good plan, everything's gonna work out. And Sam says he can't do it, and Ruby says, "Look, I get it. You don't want him going all torture master again." [laughs] And Sam says, "No, I mean, he can't do it. He can't get the job done." So funny for that. I do like, the way that Sam's rate of like, progression into like, arrogance or whatever is like, faster than what Ruby anticipates. Like, she's still like, "Okay. And you're gonna be nice. You're gonna be like this." And Sam's like, "No, I'm past that now." He says that something happened to Dean in Hell, and he's not what he used to be, he's not strong enough.

G: Which is our first verbal confirmation of all the things that Sam said in the siren ep and that Dean has been insecure about. It's true. He does think it

C: He does. Though I still don't know why he thinks it. I guess, more recently, Dean's been giving up. So to Alastair, the thing that Dean left behind was like, the torturer side of him. [G: Yeah.] Like, what does Sam think Dean has left behind? Like, his anger?

G: Probably like, his drive.

C: Those things can be the same thing. Ruby asks, "And you are?" And Sam says, "I will be."

We're back to, you know, Dean doing the torture shit. Alastair's just trying to provoke Dean, who hasn't started the torturing yet. And Alastair says that he was in charge of torturing John, and for a hundred years, each time, he would ask John, "If you become a torturer, I'll stop torturing you." But John said no every single time. I don't believe it. [G: You know what?] Like, I know that must be the case, because if John had given up, like, you know, that would have been the righteous man breaking, and the first deal would have broken. But, like, I just- I don't believe it.

G: I think I do believe it because I do think John Winchester thinks himself a good man.

C: To be above that, yeah.

G: I mean, the only reason why he was able to reason out like, treating Sam and Dean the way he did it is because "It's for a greater good," like, "I'm being a hero by doing this." Like, "My kids suffering because I can't be there is actually me suffering because I can't be there for them [C: Mm.], which makes me a hero, 'cause I'm doing it to save the world," you know. [C: Right.] And so I think this does fly for John Winchester's characterization to like, hold out and be like, "Oh, but I'm the one suffering, and I am able to hold out that suffering" because I feel like that's the same reasoning he has used for Sam and Dean, even though I would argue and everyone would agree that, you know, Sam and Dean suffered more in those situations.

C: Alright. I can see that. Yeah, Alastair gives the iconic "Daddy's little girl, he broke in 30."

G: Yeah, just like us, except we broke in like, 29 or something.

C: What are we talking about?

G: Do people still- We used to do two episodes per week, and then by like, Episode 29, we quit that. [C: Oh.] And I said in the podcast like, "I wanted us to quit in 30, because, like, just like Dean Winchester. But yeah, alas! We have to do it now."

C: Sad.

G: Devastating.

C: Yeah, and Alastair calls Dean "Not the man your daddy wanted you to be," which Dan echoes at the end. And then Dean, you know, picks up some holy water. Alastair is not impressed, but then Dean says that in Hell, he dreamed, and over and over he dreamt of being able to torture Alastair, and therefore he has a few ideas. And he gets a needle, and he fills it up with holy water, and then he walks over, and then we cut to outside where Cas is listening in, and Alastair is screaming.

G: Yeah, I do like the part that, like, you know, Alastair's just being like, "Oh, holy water. Come on, Dean." But when Dean holds up that syringe, he does actually look a bit like, scared. [C: Mm.] Like, yeah, this is creative of Dean to do, I guess. Like, they didn't do it in Hell. [laughing] Also, I'm just so- I mean, every time it happens in Supernatural, I do have a bit of a laugh, but like, the fact that they would just visualize holy water as like, anything. Anything- any like, jug of water, any tank of water with a rosary in it [both laugh], and like, "Go, girl!" I think you'd legitimately need a priest to bless that thing. [C laughs]

C: I'm sure that angels can do it.

G: That's true. Maybe so. Why are the angels Catholic, though? Like, why are they using a rosary?

C: I don't know.

G: Is a rosary a Catholic thing? I feel like it is.

C: I think so.

G: Yeah, because, like, isn't the whole point of like, Protestantism they don't do saints? I mean, not the whole point. But they don't do saints in that thing, so I assume they don't do Mama Mary. [typing] "Rosary... is it Catholic?"

C: Is holy water Catholic.

G: No, it's like, a different process for every- I mean, you can have, like, holy water, for literally, like, every religion. Like, it's just holy water. [C: Okay.] But, like, Catholic holy water specifically needs to be blessed by a priest. Okay. So rosary is Catholic. I'm gonna look up [typing] "holy water... do Protestants do that shit." [C laughs] Okay, they don't do holy water.

C: Okay, so it is all Catholicism.

G: Oh, the like, when you enter a church, you dip your hand in the holy water, and you do the sign of the cross, that's a Catholic thing also, apparently. I mean, that makes sense. The sign of the cross is Catholic.

C: Yeah, the sign of the cross is a Catholic thing. I mean, is it just Catholic because only Catholics do exorcisms?

G: Is that true?

C: Yeah, I feel like- I don't think the demons are very big in Protestantism, but also, like, I literally know nothing due to the atheism, so, [laughs] I don't know.

G: Okay, so Anglicans and Episcopal church, they don't usually use- like, they don't use the term "holy water," but they do use some kind of water for baptism.

C: Okay.

G: Dean tortures Alastair some more. There's a line, where, after like, Dean pulls out the needle, like, Alastair goes, "Go directly to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200," and the thing is, if this is was literally anyone else, like, if this was any other demon saying this, I'll be like, "That's so corny. I don't think you should be speaking like that." Whatever whatever. But because it's Alastair, I'm like, "It's fine." The line delivery is so good, like, it just heavy lifts everything. And as he said, like, this scenes, not much really happens in them. Like, there's some reveals, but the reveal is actually kind of like, compressed towards the end, so not much is happening in the middle parts, but it's still very- while you're watching it, it's still very interesting because of the acting.

-

G: Back in the motel room, Ruby kind of like, burns down this map while doing a little chant. Which is pretty cool.

C: Yeah, it's fun when she gets to be a witch. [G: Yeah.] And her eyes turn black.

G: What happens is it burns down the entire thing and leaves a little piece of it, and she goes, "Yeah, that's where Dean is." And as Sam looks at this, he turns to Ruby and goes, "Ruby, it's been weeks. I need it."

C: How has it been weeks? Like, he could throw Alastair in 4.15. Like, I thought that they were like, meeting up again since "Criss Angel." Have they been meeting up and him not drinking her blood?

G: Maybe. Or like, maybe it's been a while since they have met up. When was "Criss Angel"?

C: That's true. "Criss Angel" was- was it like, 4.13? No, that was "After School-" 4.12. 4.12.

G: So yeah.

C: Yeah. And right, he was calling Ruby in 4.14, but they didn't actually meet up. So yeah, perhaps it has been a while.

G: Ruby says, "You don't seem too happy about it." Is that an odd thing to say? I don't know. Never drank blood, so I don't know. [both laugh]

C: Right, are you saying- Does it seem like she's like, offended by it?

G: Yeah, is it- What's that supposed to mean?

C: I mean, he doesn't seem too happy about it. [laughs]

G: It's just an observational thing. [laughs] Okay.

C: I think- I don't know. I think she's still like, trying to get him to get over like, the qualms that he has around the blood drinking.

G: Okay, yeah.

C: Also- I don't know. Like, the blood-drinking is mixed with sex, and like, I'm not entirely sure what the sex means to either of them, because, like, I feel- it's mostly like, for Ruby, I think it definitely started as just, "It's easier to manipulate him now," but like, I don't know if if it also like, matters to her emotionally. I also don't know if it matters to Sam emotionally, or if he's just doing it as a way to like, somehow make the blood drinking seem less weird to himself. So like, there could be a reason to feel offended if you're equating the two- like, like, blood drinking with having sex.

G: But like, are they having sex?

C: I mean she straddles him and then kisses him. I don't know if they have sex after that. 

G: Yeah. But like, the act is definitely portrayed as-

C: Sexual.

G: Sexual. Yeah, okay. Sam just goes like, "I mean, I don't- You think I wanna do this? This is the last thing I- But I need to be strong." Blah blah blah.

C: I mean, it is interesting how Sam and Dean are both like, leaning into their "dark side" and like, doing something that they like, don't want to do but have to in order to get this information from Alastair. And I guess, like, both of their sets of actions are condemned by the narrative, at least, so at least that's nice.

G: Is it?

C: I think so.

G: The torture?

C: I mean, Anna comes in, and she's like, "This is terrible, and God doesn't want this" for the torturing.

G: Yeah, but like, with Dean, I feel it's more like, "Doesn't want this because it'll be a boo-boo for him! [C laughs] Like, he'll be sad about it!" You know?

C: Well, she also says, "It'll ruin the one real weapon you have," [G: Yeah.] which makes it sound like there's like, a- Oh, okay! You thought that that just meant like, emotional hurt? Oh, I fully thought it was like, "Dean needs to remain morally pure to be Michael's vessel" or some shit. But no, you're right, it probably is just like, "His feelings will be hurt!"

G: [laughs] Yeah. Which is completely different from, you know. Like, for Dean, it's like- it's almost almost like, a passive kind of thing, versus Sam's-

C: Right, even though he's fully, actively doing torture? Like, both of them are being the exact same amount of active. But yeah, you're right. It's like, "Don't do this to Dean" like he's not making the choice himself, which he is. And for Sam, it's like, "How dare he make this choice that he was manipulated into by Ruby a while ago also." So yeah. Yeah, you're right.

G: Ruby straddles his like, lap, and then they kiss, and then Ruby brings out the knife.

C: Yeah, she starts with like, "It's okay, Sammy, you can have it." Which yeah, I really liked that she calls him "Sammy." It's a fun Ruby thing.

G: She slices like, a little bit of her arm, and then Sam starts [laughs] just slurping that shit. [C: Yeah.] He's slurping it. And this whole time, like, we go to Ruby's face, and she has, like, a sick and twisted smile on her face. [both laugh] And she's like, caressing Sam's hair and going, "It's okay. Sam." [C: Yeah.] Like, literally her smile is like, that "I'm a sicko."

C: [laughing] Yeah.

G: Like, whatever that is.

C: Yeah, yeah, the- what is it? "I'm a sick bitch, I like freak sex."

G: I don't know. I am inclined to say it's like, overacted, but like, I don't know. Maybe I'm just being- like, maybe she's just not directed well. I don't know!

C: Yeah. I don't know. I feel like there's something to discuss that like, this is the manner by which Sam drinks the blood, but I don't know what to say. I'm sure- I don't know. I'm sure there's a bunch of psychosexual literature out there I could reference if I bothered to read it. Does it feel like, motherly?

G: I think because the vibe that Ruby is putting out is like, comforting, that is like, a way to see it.

C: 'Cause doesn't Mary stroke his hair in a similar fashion, in like-

G: When?

C: - "When the Levee Breaks"?

G: Oh, like, in his like, fucking hallucinations or whatever.

C: Yeah.

G: I forget. I'm not sure. I think there is something to be said about how Ruby like, paints this as like, she's trying to comfort Sam. [C: Yeah.] 'Cause the way the "But it's okay. It's okay, Sammy, you can have it," is kind of like a "This is something I can restrict." Like, "This is something I can not give you. But don't worry. I always will." You know, that's kind of like, the implication here with the "It's okay, it's okay." And yeah, like, oof! Poor Sam. [laughs]

C: Yeah. Sorry, Sam.

G: I don't know. It's a lot. It's a lot.

We go back to the torture room. Dean holds up for Ruby's knife and ladles holy water onto it. Which is odd. Like that's a metal blade. [C laughs] I don't know what this is supposed to accomplish.

C: Yeah. Like, there's just gonna be like, a tiny little droplet?

G: I feel like that shit is like, hydrophobic. [laughs] What's happening here?

C: I don't know.

G: He goes to Alastair. Alastair's saying some shit, but you know. He just stabs the guy.

C: Yeah. They don't care about the vessels.

G: No, wait. How does this work?

C: No, exactly. Because the demon knife kills people.

G: So like, if you slooowly put that demon knife in, it won't kill the guy? Only when you do it fast?

C: Doesn't Alastair have some kind of an immunity to the demon knife in some way 'cause like, didn't they like, stab him in the shoulder with it in like, 4.09 and he was fine? And Cas stabs him with it again this time, and he's fine.

G: The implication with those is like, if it's in a non-lethal position.

C: Yeah, I don't think Dean stabs Alastair in a lethal position here. It's like, lower abdomen.

G: He stabs- I'm pretty sure that's where your intestines are. Like, your large intestine is in there somewhere.

C: Huh. Maybe.

G: But I guess you can survive an intestinal rupture for a while. But yeah. He stabs the guy. As this is happening, we see like, a pipe thing turn. What do you call this? What's that circular pipe?

C: A faucet?

G: Is it a faucet? It may or may not be a faucet. I don't know. Not- I don't know. What are the people who know what faucets are. Civil engineers?

C: Plumbers?

G: Plumbers! Yeah! Plumbers. I'm not a plumber, unfortunately.

C: Well, okay, so the point of the faucet is that it drips water onto the devil's trap, which causes it to break eventually. However, [laughs] Dean's been sloshing holy water all over the place. You told me that didn't erode any of the chalk? Also, Alastair's been spitting blood everywhere.

G: Yeah. The inside of that sigil would have been broken like, earlier. Also, like, the moment Dean, like, wheeled in that cart, the wheels go over the chalk. [C laughs] And like, my immediate thought was, "Dude, you're gonna break the sigil."

C: I don't know, man.

G: I'm pretty sure they could get like, a paintbrush and a can of paint. Cas, you got lazy? Is that what this is? [C laughs]

C: Step it up, dude.

-

G: We go to [C: Ah!] Cas in the fucking waiting area or whatever. Like, there's a light above him, and it starts flickering, and then it bursts, and Anna is behind him.

C: Yeah, also, the position he was waiting in, he's sort of like, braced over the table like he has both arms- hands on it. And it's like, the sounds of the torture really are affecting him. Like, he is upset or whatever. It's nice.

G: Yeah. I love the fucking halo thing, because, like, it is over Cas, but like, there's another one in front of it, so it looks like Cas’s halo is the one that's still up, and then, like, Anna’s is the one that bursts, which is pretty fun! Oh, I love you halo imagery. Anna's there. Cas goes, "Oh, Anna," like, before he turns around, which is pretty fun.

C: Yeah. He can sense her like, true form, or whatever. Like, they've known each other for thousands or millions of years.

G: Yeah, also, we just don't know what the fuck sensation is like for angels, you know. Can they see all around? 360 degree? You know. He turns around, looks at her, and remarks that she's still in the same vessel, even though it like, I don't know, probably exploded, destroyed. And Anna says, "Yeah, I guess I'm sentimental." And she goes, "I called in some old favors."

C: With who?

G: Who the fuck is giving her favors. And also, how do vessels work? What is this?

C: What favors give you this body back? Yeah, I don't know. Someone who was able to heal the ash pile that her vessel became?

G: This happens to Cas, too, and it's still the same question. Like, who the fuck brought Cas back? And the answer is God. So like, is Anna like- I don't know. Did God bring her back? What the- Is that the old favor?

C: I don't think that God's one of her old favors, because when she was two, she was screaming and crying about how he was gonna kill her. Also, [laughs] I'm pretty sure if she ran into God, she wouldn't be saying all this stuff about how God's abandoned them or whatever. [G: Yeah.] So like, a reaper, probably?

G: But like, a reaper is responsible for souls. Not bodies. [C: Yeah.] Although maybe a part of it is like, she has become so entrenched in her body that that's her now also.

C: Yeah, that they'd be able to construct it from her soul.

G: Yeah. It's not a vessel. It's a body now.

Cas is just going like, "Yeah, you shouldn't be here." Anna is asking about Uriel, whatever whatever. Anna asks, "Why are you letting Dean do this?" And Cas is like, "It's God's work." Anna goes like, "Oh, yeah, God is telling you to make Dean torture that guy?"

C: Well, she says specifically, "Torturing? That's God's work."

G: Oh yeah, that's a different-

C: - which makes it seem like she's against torture in general, but, like, I don't know if she is. I mean, we have no evidence that she's not against torturing in general, but like, the show is not against torturing in general. So.

G: Yeah. And then she goes, "Stop him, Cas. Before you ruin the one real weapon you have." Cas goes, "Who are we to question the will of God?" And Anna then reveals the "Yeah, but is it His will?" And Cas is like, "Yeah, I mean, where else would the orders come from?" "I don't know. Somebody else, but not God." [C: Yeah.] I did get jumpscared when they referred to God as "him." [C laughs] I was like, "Noooo! Oh, yeah, the- yeah, okay."

C: Yeah, I also got used to she/they God on Good Omens. That was nice.

G: Exactly. It was nice.

C: Yeah, I'm still so stuck on the Supernatural stance on torture thing. I think there's a post about it that I read that we'll just reblog 'cause I don't remember the details, but I think it was interesting. I think it's just the fact that, like, Dean does torture all the time, but they don't portray it as torture. They portray it as- I think the post says that a lot of what Dean does is just portrayed as a cop interrogation room scene, which the writers consider separate from torture, whereas, like, this is actually torture. And like, the ways that they make that distinction just, I don't know, show ideological messiness with the writers.

G: Yeah. I mean, Supernatural, first and foremost, as a show written by many people, so like, I don't know. Like, every single idea is interfaced with differently by every single person who writes for this show. So-

C: Yeah. I'm sure I could find a Ben Edlund episode where they torture like, pretty fast, though. [G: Sure.] Like, in "The Man Who Would be King," doesn't it open with like, Bobby and Dean, like, with a demon?

G: Torturing the demon, yeah.

C: Yeah. And that's like, okay.

G: Yeah, like, this is not like, ruining Dean's psyche or whatever.

C: Yeah. Interesting. Oh, also, when Cas asked, "Who are we to question the will of God?" the shot turns wider, and then we see that his hands are in his pockets! [G: Aww.] Which I think is so cute. He's had this body for like, a few weeks, and he's already developed nervous tics and defensive stances and all that shit. Good for him. Does Anna- does Anna meet Chuck, ever?

G: I don't think so.

C: Does she know about Chuck eventually? She ought to, right?

G: I don't think so. I don't know. I genuinely don't know.

C: 'Cause it's like, alright, like, currently, the Supernatural stance is like, "Oh, like, God is good, but like, Heaven is evil, like, maybe," but eventually, it takes it to like, "No, God also really fucking sucks." Yeah, Annacurrently still does have faith and God, just not in Heaven.

G: Yeah. And Uriel, I think, has a more reasonable belief in that, "Yeah Heaven is- God DGAF." which I think is what's happening.

C: Everything that Uriel says later is true-

G: Is completely true, yeah.

C:  - and proven by the narrative later.

G: And he gets fucking killed for it! Like, okay! Slay, I suppose! [C laughs] Diva down!

C: [typing] I don't know.

G: [laughing] No, because I just saw it in the like, George Santos posts.

C: I think it's just a saying in ball culture, I think, but I don't know.

G: Yeah. Okay. Well, Anna tells Cas, "What you're feeling, it's called doubt." And then she goes to touch Cas's hand, and like, holds it. Like, not just touch it. Like, she's like, trying to grab it, kind of. She goes, "These orders are wrong, and you know it. But you can do the right thing. You're afraid, Cas. I was too. But together, we can still-" and that's like, what breaks Cas out of it. He goes, "Together?" And then he yanks his hand away and goes, "I'm nothing like you. You fell. Go." Yeah. Anna does.

C: I really like- okay, first off, like, "The father you love." What does love look like if you can't have feelings in Heaven? Like, I guess love is obedience?

G: Obey, I suppose. Yeah. Put your faith into blah blah blah.

C: But like, I feel like that's not what Anna's trying to say. Because I feel like Anna would not like, Anna means something else 'cause like, she understands love and all that shit because of her time as a human. I also love that she says, like, "You think he'd ask this of you?" Like, it's almost like she's framing it like, "He would ask you to do something that hurts you so much?" [G: Yeah.] Which, like, again, reiterates that this is like, personal for Cas, and that it emotionally hurts him to see Dean do this, which slaps. I'm so sad that we don't get Anna after Season 5 because she's so interesting. Like, okay, she got her Grace, and then she like, went off, right? We don't really know what her goals are, what she's been doing since. Okay, she came back because she wanted to protect Dean, and also because she thought that she could find an ally in Cas because she must be really lonely right now. She just keeps being lonely, right? She never gets followers or friends or anything.

G: Follower. [laughs] Just like on Instagram?

C: Yeah, just like on Instagram.

G: The three of them, Anna, Uriel, and Cas, they should have kept these three in some way.

C: Yeah.

G: Or I don't know, just kept them longer. For me, the person that interests me more is Uriel in the Uriel-Anna-Cas situation right now. Because, like, again, like, he's right! You know? [C: Yeah.] Like, he's right, and like, his reasoning of like, "Why are we supposed to bow down to the humans? Like, why are we inferior to them?" Like, I can see why he would think that. Obviously, like, Uriel, is portrayed in the show, as like, "He thinks he's better than humans," and the argument he's making is like, "They're not better than us." I think, like, later in the show, they have Lucifer make the argument, like, actually say the words like, "And God like, tried to make me bow down to the humans, and that's why I fell" or whatever. I don't know. I think that is a very interesting concept of like, "God has a new favorite show now," quite literally, "and we're just fodder for that show," quite literally. And yeah, I feel like Uriel can have a lot of interesting journeys upon discovering that he is, in fact, right.

C: That's true. And like, we need- I mean, we need both like, Anna and Uriel because they sort of provide these two distinct perspectives.

G: Opposite. Yeah, like, Anna thinks like, not that humanity is better, but like, you can learn something from them.

C: She thinks humanity's better.

G: Does she? She actually says that?

C: I mean, at least when Dean's asking her why she chose to fall like, she- I mean, I guess not better, but like, she'd rather be a human than an angel.

G: Yeah, like, she thinks there is more freedom to be who you are as a human.

C: Yeah, she wants to have feelings and all that shit.

G: Even though those same things you can experience as an angel, you just don't have the freedom to.

C: Yeah, I mean, I think she seems to think that you can't experience them as an angel. So like-

G: Yeah, but, you know, she understands that Cas is experiencing doubt.

C: That's true.

G: I don't know. Both of them can have journeys regarding like, "Can angels really experience this shit? What makes us different from humans? Are we really that different? Is it so important?"

C: And they can all confront God.

G: Yeah, and they can all kill God about it.

C: Yeah. [laughs] Would be nice. Unfortunately, it is not what happens in this show.

G: Also, they have, like, so much history together.

C: Yeah!

G: Every single conversation that Cas and Anna have, Cas and Uriel, Uriel and Anna- do Uriel and Anna talk? Whatever. But, like, all of those relationships are implied to have so much history together. And it's like, I don't know. What would it be like, if, like, one of your closest buddies at work just goes like, "And now I will stand against everything I believe, which are the things you believe,and I think I'm right for it, so like, obviously, I think you're wrong for you." [C: Yeah.] Like, what does that do to Cas, you know? And I'm sure it informs like, Uriel's decision in some way.

C: Like, Anna falling?

G: Yeah, that there's an angel who like, rebelled.

C: Yeah. And who wants to join humanity. "Well, I'm not gonna like, lose more people to this God propaganda." I mean, we get very few glimpses of that, and I would like to know more of their history. I would like a flashback episode.

G: For real. Wishlist for Supernatural Season 16.

C: [laughs] Season 16.

-

C: Back in the torture room, Alastair finally is about to reveal some information, but Dean just pours a bunch of salt down his throat.

G: This is like, the scene that I was like, "Yeah, maybe Dean is like, doing this because he likes it." 'Cause like, you know, I feel like doing the salt down the throat thing, it's like, you're gonna prevent this guy from being able to communicate with you.

C: Alastair finally says that John was supposed to be the one to "bring it on." Dean doesn't know what he's talking about. Alastair says that the first time that Dean started torturing, that was the first seal broken. Also, he calls it "The first time you sliced into that weeping bitch." Of course the first person Dean tortured was a woman. Seems correct. Dean does not want to believe this,and Alastair quotes from- I don't know where- "And it is written that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in Hell. As he breaks, so shall it break." [laughs] You're telling me not a single other righteous man has shed blood in Hell?

G: What is a righteous man? Like, how do we define that?

C: I don't know. Some people define it as someone who like, sacrifices themselves by a crossroads deal.

G: I'm sure- like, that guy was like, "And I was gonna sacrifice myself for my wife who had cancer." Nobody else?

C: Right, yeah, I don't think his pain tolerance was that high. [laughs] I'm sure he broke, too.

G: No, I mean, did that guy die? I don't think so.

C: I forgor. Did they save him?

G: I think they did. They only let the Black guy die. [laughs]

C: Oh, yeah, I remember having issues with that.  I'm sure there have been other people. I guess- I feel like Supernatural just thinks that like, people can withstand more torture than they can. Like, I feel like Supernatural thinks that some people don't break ever, and I don't think that's possible.

G: Another idea that I have read around is that a righteous man is like, someone who could be Michael's vessel, and that's why it's like-

C: Oh, it was John who was supposed to be it. Okay. Okay, I see it. I believe it. None of John's relatives went to Hell? I'm pretty sure they did.

G: Isn't his dad like, a Man of Letters or something?

C: Oh, and so he would go to Heaven because Supernatural supports indiscriminately killing monsters. Yeah. [laughs]

G: Yeah. I don't know, I feel like it is interesting that the Campbells are the Lucifers, and then the Winchesters are the Michaels.

C: Yeah.

G: Is that true?

C: No, it's true.

G: Or is it like "and the combination of them will result to the brothers who are the Michael and Lucifer."

C: No, no, I'm pretty sure it's the Campbells and the Winchesters [G: Okay.], 'cause they were brought together on purpose so that you would have two brothers who could house Michael and Lucifer.

G: I think that could be a good way to look at it. It's going to just be the Winchesters, and then at this point, it was just John and Dean, and John didn't break.

C: Okay. I could see it.

Dean is upset at this, and Alastair also clarifies that like, you have to break the first seal before you break the rest of them, so when the Apocalypse happens, it'll all be Dean's fault. And Alastair says, "Believe me, son, I wouldn't lie about this. It's kind of a religious sort of thing with me." which I really like. I really like.

G: I like it too.

C: I like that demons have a religion around the Apocalypse, I like applying it to Samruby, I like applying it to everything. It's great. Love it.

G: Yeah! And the fact that this is like, so sacred that it wouldn't- like, I don't know. It's good! It's good. I mean, to me, I'm glad Alastair dies this episode because, I don't know, I feel like it does lend to like, the validity of Sam's power, that he's able to kill Alastair specifically. Also, I just feel like the gimmick that they have with Alastair probably would have gotten old if they had him stick around. [C: Yeah.] The reason why he's so iconic is because he dies this episode. But fun stuff. Fun thing they have going with Alastair.

C: Dean says, "I don't think you are lying, but even if the demon's do win, you won't be there to see it." So he is planning to just fully kill Alastair, he is no longer focused on the torture-him-for-information plan. [G: Yeah.] I think you're right. This is just him getting revenge at this point. But, you know, Alastair has gotten out of the trap, out of the chains, and he punches Dean. I still can't stop laughing every time there's a punch fight in Supernatural. Like, this is supposed to be a big, serious thing, and you're just like, doing a bar fight, but with like, cooler lighting.

G: No, for real, like, Cas is like [C laughs] notoriously bad at this fights. Like, he looks goofy. [C laughs] Like, apparently they laughed at Misha Collins on set when he first punched someone in this episode 'cause it looked goofy as hell. And like, I believe it, 'cause Cas does look goofy as hell when he fights.

C: He does.

G: He's so bad at mortal combat! [C laughs] Like, he's so bad at it!

C: Can't he just do the throwing people across the room thing? Like, he doesn't touch anything this whole episode. Can't he just like, airfight people?

G: He's cute, though. He does a little twirly-twirly later.

C: Yeah. He is cute.

G: So Dean, on his knees- is he on his knees yet? He is about to be. But he's just bloodied up, and Alastair's punching him and punching him. There's this part where he gets lifted off the ground by his throat, and like, Alastair's thumb is like, really digging into the hollow of his neck, and he goes, "You've you got a lot to learn, boy, so I'll see you back in class, bright and early, Monday morning." Oh, it's a w- It's so fun! [C: Yeah.] And all I keep thinking of is that thing you always say where you go, "You're a pleasure to have in class!" [C laughs] And literally, Alastair's going, "You're a pleasure to have in class, Dean." Apparently- actually, I'm not sure if this is true. We may be spreading misinformation, beware. [C: Okay.] But, like, apparently, this scene is like, Jensen was actually lifted by the neck this way.

C: Oww.

G: Yeah. And like, I don't know, he said something like "I trust the actor to not hurt me."

C: Um-!

G: I wouldn't. [laughs] I wouldn't trust anyone to lift me by the neck. But okay, you go, girl.

C: Yeah, I don't know about that. Maybe Alastair's actor has like, a lot of training in these things.

G: Yeah. But then you still are legitimately being lifted by [laughs]- I mean, I don't know!

C: I mean, they'll do anything to these- Maybe, after like, having the like, 10,000 bees sicced on you, like, your standards for workplace safety are just shit.

G: Alastair gets disrupted by Cas. Cas shoves a knife into his shoulder. Very bad, aim, Cas. You should have just gone straight to the heart. What the fuck are you doing? [C laughs] Also, I have a question. Do you need to get fucking stabbed with this thing? Like, if you slit someone's throat with Ruby's knife, [C: It should kill.] and if someone happens to be a demon, it should kill them?

C: I think so.

G: But it seems to be like, a "You need to like get that thing in there, and it needs to like, electrocute visual effects to kill you."

C: True. I have no clue, man.

G: I don't know. The knife like, does the flickering thing, but it doesn't fully- it doesn't even seem to hurt him at all. And Alastair's like, "Well, would you look at that. God's on my side today." And Cas, who has taken a couple of steps back, lifts his hand, and then does like, a turning motion with it. And the knife is like, twisting on Alastair's shoulder. But Alastair is like, "Yeah, bit painful," but he just pulls the knife out. And it does like, have some resistance from Cas's- I don't know telekinetic powers, probably. But eventually, he tosses that knife away. And then they start to fight, in the goofiest way- [C laughing] I mean, Alastair's fine. Alastair's fine. Like, I feel like this actor’s good at like, you know, his stunts or whatever. Cas does look so fucking goofy. I mean, I don't know. I'll keep on thinking to myself like, "He's getting used to his body, you know, he's not used to-" And, I mean, he is, "- and that's why he's so bad at throwing punches." I do love how every single time we see Cas like, throw a punch, [laughs]it cuts to an angle that like, hides it. [C laughing] Like, hides, like, Misha Collins, you know? He gets thrown into a wall eventually.

C: There's blood dripping down out of his head. He looks so handsome.

G: There's a rebar on that wall?

C: Is there?

G: Yeah, he gets stabbed into it. There's like, a sound of him being impaled on the rebar. [C: Whoop.] And it's not just stabbed, too. He gets like, hooked. He gets impaled on it, and then, like, Alastair kind of like, lifts him up and then pulls him down as if like, you're putting a coat on a hook. [C: Hm!] Which is pretty fun. Pretty fun visual. Alastair says like, "Oh, you roaches- You're like roaches, these celestials. It's unfortunate. I don't know how to kill you, but I can just send you back to Heaven." Which is fun. You can exorcise angels. That's fun. [C: Yeah.] I feel like we don't really utilize this a lot, the same way we don't utilize demon exorcism in the future. It's just, there are sigils to do that now for angels, and for demons, you just kill them. They don't give a fuck. Alastair starts chanting something. Light starts kind of like, pouring out of Cas's eyes and mouth. And like, it's a different thing than the demon smoke, 'cause that shit is smoke, and you can like, actually see the smoke moving out. This is just like, a bright light. Suddenly, Alastair is like, choking.

C: Here comes Sam with the steel chair.

G: Saaam Winchester! He's here.

C: It's quite funny that it's like, "It's Dean's turn! Oh, no, he's about to die. It's Cas's turn! Oh, no, he's about to die. It's Sam's turn! Finally, this works."

G: Alastair is just fucking pinned up to the wall, and Sam starts interrogating, "Where's the angels? Who's murdering the angels? How are they doing it?" And Alastair's like, "Oh, you think I'm gonna tell you?" And Sam's like, "Yes, I do." And he twists his hand. Is it the same way that Cas twists his hand for the knife? I thought that was fun. And then we bring back the Alastair eye roll to white, which I quite like, 'cause it seems like an unconscious thing, you know. He's not on purpose doing that. And it just goes to show how much more Sam is [laughs] torturing this guy effectively. 'Cause like, Dean wasn't able to do that. [C: Mm-hm.] Alastair says, "It's not us. We're not killing the angels. I don't know who is." Alastair is like, "Okay, well, send me back to Hell if you can!" And Sam says, "No, I'm stronger than that Now, I can kill." And then he holds up his hand, closes his eyes, and then Alastair dies! [C: Yeah.] He fucking dies. He's dead.

C: You said you were gonna talk about how Cas looks in this scene.

G: Oh, yeah. This entire scene, Cas is like- when he slumps down, and then he finally stands up, he's just looking in between, like, Sam and Alastair. He's just like, following the conversation. 'Cause Sam is like, screaming in this part, kind of. He's like, demanding answers in a way that's like, quite forceful, you know. And the moment he twists his hand even more to hurt Alastair even more, Sam goes from looking at Alastair to doing a slow headturn towards Sam, kind of like, in disbelief. Like, I don't think anyone expected Sam to have this much power is the implication. I don't know. It's interesting, because, like, Ruby didn't expect Sam to be as like, gung-ho as he is right now, for example. And like, Cas knows that Sam is doing something, but not to this extent, to- Yeah, he exceeds expectations. Above average, even.

C: Does Cas know that Sam is doing something? 4.03 was like, "Stop your brother, stop doing this." 4.07, Uriel pulls Sam aside and was like, "Stop doing this." But like, when Cas comes by in 4.15, he doesn't say anything about Sam. Like, he might think that Sam has ceased his extracurricular activities.

G: But I feel like he'd know.

C: Maybe. Also, okay. So these are orders from their higher-ups that they're getting? To like, not let Sam power up? And the idea- 'cause Heaven wants the Apocalypse, right? Cas doesn't fully know the extent of the plan with, like, the Michael vessel and all that yet, I'm assuming. [G: Yeah.] But, okay, Heaven strat is just like, "We need San to be powerful enough to raise Lucifer so we can have the battle, but like, we want them just on like, the edge of that so that Lucifer's vessel isn't that powerful in the battle against Michael"? Like, what's the strat up there?

G: I don't know.

C: Okay. Whatevs. We'll find out, I suppose.

G: Maybe we won't. [laughs]

C: Or maybe we won't, due to how the show is badly written. [laughs]

-

C: So we cut to the hospital. Dean's there. And Sam sits next to him. He looks all like, young and innocent and scared again, which is- it's nice to see. It's nice to see him care. Cas sort of pokes his head in and then keeps walking, but Sam follows him out and demands Cas to get in there and heal him. Miracle. Now.

G: Cas says, "No, I can't." [C: Yeah] Why? [C: Why?] He just got punched in the face! What? Is a demonic punch [C laughs], like, special? Can you heal like, a regular guy punch, but a demonic punch, a bit too much?

C: Is Cas just on like, a- does he just have a "no healing allowed" rule that he's under right now?

G: Perhaps. Maybe he's like, in deeper scrutiny.

C: He'll come in and save their lives- Yeah, yeah. So that would- Yeah, 'cause they'd be like, "That's not necessary. And like, we're already suspicious of how much you care about Dean. Like, that's a weird thing to do, Cas."

G: Yeah, but like, they literally did cause Dean- like, this is their fault.

C: Yeah.

G: But I suppose they already got the info [C: Yeah.], and like, Alastair's dead, so it's not like they need Dean for more stuff.

C: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Sam is very angry 'cause he says, "You and Uriel put him in there because you can't keep a simple devil's trap together." Cas, he starts out- he sounds sort of angry on the like, "I don't know what happened. That trap-" and then he sort of like, stops and looks away and like, softens a little, and then goes, "It shouldn't have broken. I am sorry." Which is nice. Sam's still angry about how all this was pointless because the demons aren't doing this, and Cas says, "Perhaps Alastair was lying," and Sam says, "No. He wasn't." And Cas does believe this. Like, later, when he reports to Uriel, he goes like, "Sam Winchester said that like, the demons weren't doing it." So it's nice that he does have this trust in Sam. I don't know. 'Cause the whole like, "Sam has this power. Sam can kill demons" thing- like, they were like, against it, because they were like, "It's going to make him more demonic" or whatever the fuck, but like, it's nice that he does still have this trust in Sam, despite all that. 

We cut to a park outside. Is there like, a significance to these these benches at children's playgrounds in Supernatural?

G: I don't know, but the gate to Heaven later does end up being like, a fucking playground.

C: Oh, a playground! Huh. Interesting. That's fun. So Uriel's there on the park bench. He's-he's trying to do his community theater acting thing [both laughing], and not doing a very good job.

G: [laughing] He literally is so bad at it! Yeah. Uriel is the funniest angel in the garrison [C: He really is.] and the worst [C laughing] thespian in all of history.

C: At what point does Cas suspect him? Do we know?

G: Later.

C: At what point is Cas like, "I think Uriel's the one who's killing the angels." 'Cause like, he does know once he's like, there and he inspects the devil's trap, but like, is he suspicious like, right now, already?

G: Huh! I don't think there's anything in the Anna conversation that would lead him to suspect. [C: Okay.], but I don't think it's now. I think it's between the Anna conversation-

C: Okay, so everything Cas is saying right now-

G: I think it's genuine.

C: - we should take as his genuine belief and not like, an attempt to like, trick Uriel or anything. Okay. Cool. So yeah. [laughing] Uriel's being soo funny. He's like, [dramatically] "Castiel! I received revelation from our superiors. Our brothers and sisters are dying, and they..." [laughing] and he does some gesture with his hands, I think, which is like, quite unnatural-looking. He goes, "They want us to stop hunting the demon responsible!" He's great. I love this guy.

G: Amazing. For real.

C: Yeah, this is the most emotion he's ever shown his entire life, and he thinks that this is like, "This will get Cas. He'll be like, 'This is my old pal Uriel acting normal.'" [G laughs] He says, "Something is wrong up there. I mean, can you feel it?" And yeah, Cas says that "I don't think a demon did this, because that's what Sam said." And Uriel's like, [stilted] "If not the demons, what could it be?" [laughs] God bless.

G: Amazing.

C: Cas says that it is the will of Heaven. He thinks that because they're failing and losing the war, the garrison is being punished.

G: That's crazy.

C: So is the will of Heaven- that's different than like, "Our superiors are doing it," like, "Our individual superiors are doing it." It's like, this is what like, God- well, but-

G: This is divine retribution, yeah, from God himself. Yeah.

C: Yeah. But then Uriel goes, "You think our father would," and Cas goes, "I think maybe our father isn't giving the orders anymore." So like, is it divine retribution, or is it just like, "I think one of our superiors is doing it"?

G: I don't know.

C: Hard to tell. What a sad thing to think, though.

G: Yeah.

C: Yeah, when Cas says, "I think maybe our father isn't giving the orders anymore," he literally said, "I'm not Anna, but I believe in her beliefs."

G: For real.

C: Yeah, like, do you think he had thought that before Anna showed up? I mean, he expressed doubt in 4.07 already, but like-

G: The thing is like, his argument of like, "I'm not like you" is like, "You fell." I don't know. I feel like the argument really isn't like, "I don't believe in what you believe," it's that "I believe it in a far superior way than you do." [both laugh]

C: Yeah, also the thing about falling is that it's Anna's choice. [G: Anna's choice!] It's not like, something that happens to an angel that disobeys. That doesn't just happen to angels that disobey. So like, he thinks he's better than Anna because... she chose to stop being an angel?

G: Yeah, I suppose, although they don't paint it like that.

C: Yeah, I mean, Cas is gonna say, "I don't serve man, and I certainly don't serve you," so I think that he he does still have, like, an angel superiority thing going on, but he also like values humans because they're God's like, creation, and it's blasphemous to say bad things about them. But like, yeah, he still wants to be separate from them in some ways.

Uriel says, "Well, I won't wait to be gutted," and then he goes. What are we supposed to-What is he communicating to Cas with "I won't wait to be gutted." 'Cause later, when he comes in, he's like, "Are you gonna join me in my fight?" So like, is "I won't wait to be gutted" like, "I'm going up to Heaven to like, stab the superiors that are killing our garrison"?

G: I don't actually know. Is it like, maybe like- No! But like, at this point, he's saying like, he doesn't believe that it's Heaven. Like, he's trying to tell Cas, like, "Oh, Heaven's not killing the angels."

C: But then he goes to "There's something wrong up there. Can you feel it?"

G: I mean, I think the implication here is that "I'm going to keep looking for that demon." but that falls apart.

C: Yeah, but then the next conversation he has with Cas just like, straight up opens with like, "Will you join me?" though, which, like, implies that Cas should know already what Uriel's goals are, like, his team's whatever things.

G: His themes and motifs, yeah. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] Castiel should have read a character analysis of Uriel already at this point. [C: Yeah.] On Schmoop, even. [laughs] [C: God.] Fuck that website. Well, I mean, it's fine. It's fine. But also, fuck that website. [laughs]

C: Yeah. It's helpful to some people.

-

G: We go to Cas standing under like, a streetlight on- just just a road, really. And he's saying, "Anna. Anna, please!" and the street light above him flickers. He looks up, and then Anna's behind him! And Anna says, like, "Oh, what? Have you decided to kill me, after all?" Cas says, "I'm alone. I'm considering disobedience."

C: Okay, like, great line solo. What does that mean? Like, what is the order that you're currently considering disobeying, Cas? [G: Yeah!] Like, you did the thing already. Like, you're not under an order right now. What are you disobeying?

G: The order is to stop hunting the fucking demon.

C: Yeah, which, like, you're already down for 'cause you don't think there is a demon.

G: What is he- Or maybe this is like, a bigger-

C: Yeah, I think it's like, a general thing. I'm just- I'm not sure what- Okay, if this is a general thing, it's like, what? Like, okay, "I made Dean torture. I didn't like that. So now, I'm considering that future orders from Heaven may also be wrong."?

G: Yeah.

C: Sure. I just wish this was placed at a place in the episode where it made more sense as a sentence.

G: Also, it's like, we do learn later that the order isn't from Heaven. Uriel did that shit, so, I don't know. [C: I don't know.] Maybe next episode, we'll figure out more on how that pans out for Cas. Anna says, "Good." [C: Fuck yeah.] Cas says, "No, it isn't. For the first time, I feel..." [C makes pained sound] Oh, god! And I mean, everybody knows what these fucking lines are because it's everywhere. Everything, everywhere, all at once. It's just this lines. But the "I feel" really isn't "I feel," period. It's "I feel..." and he doesn't have a word for it.

C: Yeah, he doesn't know what it is.

G: He doesn't- He can't say it, 'cause he doesn't- He probably doesn't know what it is.

C: But what is it? Is it fear?

G: I think it's doubt. I mean-

C: But he was able to say "doubt" in 4.07.

G: I don't know. Probably like., it's the feeling of like, "But I know better." Is that- I think that's different from doubt.

C: Yeah.

G: Anna says, "It gets worse. Choosing your own course of action is confusing, terrifying." She puts her hand on Cas's shoulder, and he like, looks at it. We don't actually see him like, look at it. I mean, we do. But like, sorta far away.

C: He sorta turns his face down towards it, yeah.

G: But she like, apparently gets super offended by this, and she's like, "That's right. You're too good for my help. I'm just trash, a walking blasphemy," and she goes away. And I don't understand why that was the one. But like, I suppose the last time she did touch Cas, he did like, shove her away for it. She starts walking away. Cas goes, "Anna. I don't know what to do. Please tell me what to do." [C screams] And she says, "Like the old days? No, I'm sorry. It's time to think for yourself." [C: Yeah.] God. I mean, we've talked about this in our Good Omens podcast, Rubbish and Probably a Podcast, but, like, the tendency when you are ridding yourself of a force that has, you know, dictated much of your existence is to find another force that will dictate your existence [C: Yeah. Uh-huh.] and hope that this one is better and hope this one aligns more with your wants and needs and values and stuff.

C: Yeah. He is begging her to be God, basically.

G: To be- yeah. To be the new God. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] To be the new person to tell him what is right and what is wrong and what to do and what not to do. And she refuses.

C: Yeah. And she tells him it's time to leave the garden.

G: And they don't even like, interact substantially after this episode, I feel like.

C: Yeah. Yeah. It'd be nice to see them talk. Like, especially later seasons Cas. Like, "Hey, look where I am now. Thank you."

G: He's healing babies in the park and everything.

C: I wish Anna was the one who stayed on.

G: I do feel more of an attachment to Cas's story right now, just because it's more of a journey, rather than Anna, who feels like she has already reached the destination.

C: Yeah, but I feel like she still has more places to go.

G: Of course, yeah. I think she does, too. It's just Supernatural's [laughs] a terrible- a misogynistic show. Yeah, it is.

C: Yeah. Unfortunately.

G: I love this because every single time Cas is left alone, we pan out, like, in the fucking- in the playground, when Uriel leaves, we pan out, and like, it's just this little angel surrounded by the everything. [C: Mm-hm.] And then here, when Anna leaves, we pan out and it's just Cas under that lamp surrounded by the everything. [C: Yeah.] Cas's physicality is so important to me, because, like, it's not him, but like, it's him, also, you know? [C: Yeah.] Like, he is bigger than this, but also, he is this, and I think that- it's so nice. It's so wonderful! Having him be like, small in the frame really, really like, accentuates those ideas, I feel.

C: Yeah.

-

G: Cas goes back to the like, fucking torture chamber, and he's kneeling down in front of the little divot in the devil trap that has led Alastair escape. He notices the faucet; he stops it with his hand telekinetically.

C: Yeah. We also get some fun shots of him looking up like, all the way up. [G: Yeah! Of course.] It's very good.

G: And yeah, Uriel's there. Apparently, Cas called him. And I mean, at this point, it's like, for sure, Cas knows already. [C: Yeah.] Uriel asks like, "Okay, what do you say, Castiel? Will you join me? Will you fight with me?" And Cas goes, "Strange. Strange how a leaky pipe can undo the work of angels when we ourselves are supposed to be the agents of fate."

C: What does that mean? Like, that coincidences and accidents and mistakes just shouldn't happen to angels?

G: Yeah, I think.

C: Like, "We would have considered all possibilities. I considered all possibilities. So how did this happen?"

G: Yeah. I mean later, he says, like, "I made it myself," like, "This shouldn't have happened." I think part of it is that like, "agents of faith" as in like, "It was always meant to go this way, and the fact that it didn't is like, "That's going against my very being as an angel 'cause like, I made it have to go this way, and then it didn't. So something must have changed that was also done by an angel." [C: Interesting.] Yeah, and Cas goes, you know, "No demon can overpower the trap. I made it myself. We've been friends for a long time, Uriel. Fought by each other's side, served together away from home for what seems like forever. We're brothers, Uriel. Pay me that respect. Tell me the truth."

C: Flashback episode, please!

G: I know! Also in season... When did we first get corporate angelhood? I think that's in Season 6, right?

C: Probs.

G: But here, it's less that. And I think most of it is that the angels we see are less corporate. Like, Zachariah later on seems to be like an office guy, but, like, Uriel and Cas and Anna are not office workers of Heaven. [laughs] They're the door-to-door salesman of Heaven, [C laughs] you know? Like, they're out there on the road. I don't know. I think it's so interesting that  the angels that we do see are not in their like, quote-unquote "natural habitat," you know? Like, they currently exist outside of that. And like, the idea of like, away from home, like, away from Heaven. Oh, Cas. For what seems like forever, even. If you have been away from Heaven that long, would it still even feel like home? In season 6, we see Cas in Heaven, but he didn't seem particularly at home in Heaven. He was in that guy's Heaven for a while, like, a specific like, cell in Heaven, specific room in it, but it wasn't like, home. He just liked it. I don't think there's a part in Supernatural where I would ever say Cas is like, solidly at home. It would be nice if he did. Like, you know, in Season 14, Dean says, like, "We live here. This is our home. Like, we live with an angel, a half angel, and the two of us." I don't know. The show seems to want us to believe that Cas thinks of the bunker as home [C: Yeah.], but I'm not particularly convinced, I would say. [C: Yeah.] I suppose for Cas here, it's like, less about the place and more of the people you spend all of that time with, and Uriel is like his brother because they have spent that long together.

Uriel says, "The truth is the only thing that could kill an angel," and then a blade slips out of his sleeve, and he goes, "It's another angel." This is our first angel blade. [C: Yeah.] Fun stuff! Fun stuff.

C: Big fan.

G: I love that. They keep it up their sleeves, and I love that they keep this detail for 5ever. Like, it's never changed. [C: Yeah.] How does that even work? They just have a-

C: Aren't there theories that thy're the physical manifestation of their Grace?

G: Mm, so it's like-

C: They form it.

G: - they fucking summon it the ether. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's fun.

C: I mean, doesn't Dean just have one that he uses?

G: Yeah. They steal it from like, angels who are dead.

C: Yowch.

G: They also have like, an archangel blade, which is so funny. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. Get a bigger gun or a bigger knife.

Castiel goes, "You." Uriel did all that shit. And Uriel starts calling Cas "Cas," which I think is quite fun.

G: 'Cause the implication of the name, everybody to hell and back has said is already.

C: The removing the "of God" part?

G: Yeah.

C: He is telling Cas like, turn away from Heaven and raise Lucifer with them. So yeah. And it's also just a- I don't know. Maybe it's a mocking thing, maybe it's a familiarity thing, but I'm a fan. So yeah. He says that "Alastair should never have been taken alive. Really inconvenient, Cas." And yeah, he says that the plan was for Alastair to kill Dean and to escape and then for Cas to keep on like, hunting down demons. And Cas says, "For the murders of our kin?" And Uriel says, "Not murders, Castiel. No. My work is conversion." Very fun. I love the way that Uriel uses religious language. Like, "receive revelation" for angel radio, "conversion" for this. And then they kill him, and no one else talks cool ever again in all of Supernatural. He goes, "How long have we waited here? How long have we played this game by rules that make no sense?" He's literally right. He's literally correct. [G: Yeah.] Like, these are the questions everyone is asking. Like, Anna and Cas have been asking these questions too.

G: But, like, the thing is, Supernatural is a very human-centric show. [C: Yeah.] So like, the moment someone asks the same questions and comes to the conclusion of, "But like, I don't really give a shit about the humans," it's like over.

C: Yeah, it is indeed over.

G: They have to have these questions and be like, "And humanity is the answer to all of our woes!" [C laughs] Annoying as fuck.

C: Aiya. Annoying as fuck. Yeah, Cas says, "It is our father's world, Uriel." Cas, you literally like, five minutes ago, were like, "God's not giving the orders anymore." Like, get over yourself.

Uriel says, "Our father. He stopped being that, if he ever was, the moment he created them. Humanity, his favorites, this whining, puking larva." He's so cool! He's so cool. Why did they kill him? Ah! And just the idea of angels as like, jealous children who like, grew up [G: Yeah.], is like, neat! It's neat as hell! I enjoy it!

G: Like, you were a single child for a long time, [laughs] and then suddenly, you have a little kid in the house, and you're like, "Why? He's annoying as fuck."

C: [laughs] Yeah. And he's been stationed on Earth for a long time. I guess in that whole time, he was just like, "These people are so annoying." And like, he's right a lot of- Yeah, I'm sure that he encountered a lot of annoying people. I get it.

G: Yeah, he had a post blow up on Tumblr, and he was like, "They should all kill themselves." [both laugh]

C: So Cas asks, "Are you trying to convert me?" And Uriel says, "I wanted you to join me, and I still do. With you, we can be powerful enough to-" [laughs] Literally untrue. Did you see his goofyass punches? [G laughs] Cas can't do anything!

G: He almost died. Alastair was fully going to send his ass back to Heaven.

C: [laughing] Alastair almost killed him in 4.10, and Dean had to save him. This time, Alastair almost kills him and Sam has to save him. How does Cas have any power that can help us raise Lucifer? Uriel really does love Cas. Like, they really are brothers. The fact that he's able to overlook how much Alastair tosses him around like a rag doll and is like, "No, you're actually really cool, and you could totally help me on my team!" This is a pity invite.

G: For real. [both laugh] He was like, "Everybody else said no. We need to fill up the table, though, so like, we have like, one more meal-"

C: [laughing] No, exactly. There are seven people he asked first, and that's because they were all better than Cas. [G laughing] God.

G: [laughing] For real!

C: Yeah. So he says, "To raise our brother." And Cas says, "Lucifer." And Uriel goes, "You do remember him? How strong he was? How beautiful? And he didn't bow to humanity. He was punished for defending us. Now, if you want to believe in something, Cas, believe in him." No one will ever talk this cool again! But yeah, anyway, I don't have much to say. Just a great concept. It'd be nice if Uriel- okay, 'cause it's like, Uriel and the demons seem to be following sort of the same religion. Like, we've talked about this belief in Lucifer being a religion in Hell. But I guess just 'cause Uriel considers himself far, far superior to the demons, no epic team up could ever happen. But if they let him stick around for a while more, I feel like they'd eventually come to an understanding.

G: There's going to be character development, yeah.

C: Yeah, I feel like we could get epic team up. But, alas! Cas says like, "Lucifer is not God." But Uriel says, "God isn't God anymore." Hell yeah, babey! And he says he's proof that God just doesn't give a shit about what they're doing. He goes on and says that he killed the members of the garrison who said no, but others have joined him. He says, yeah, "Others have joined me, Cas. Now, please, brother, don't fight me. Help me! Help me spread the word. Help me bring on the Apocalypse. All you have to do is be unafraid." And Cas says, "For the first time in a long time, I am." which is supposed to echo like, "For the first time, I feel..." I- okay. "For the first time in a long time, I'm unafraid."How long has he been afraid? What- is he referring to just the start of the Apocalypse or just all his time on Earth? What has he been afraid of? Just his dwindling faith?

G: Maybe so. Yeah.

C: In this moment, when he's like- does Uriel saying this make Cas, what? Like, reaffirm his belief in God? Because he like, heard an opposing position, and he was like, "I know in my heart this is wrong"? Why is this the thing that makes him brave again?

G: I think maybe- Not that like, "this is wrong," like, the totality of it, but like, I think this is like, "I have figured out how I will interface with the feelings I'm feeling, and it's not this way."

C: Yeah. Good for him. Cas like, hurls Uriel through a wall, and they like, fistfight again. And then Castiel gets hit by a big ol metal bar. He like, falls on his knees, and he says, "You can't win, Uriel. I still serve God." And Uriel says, "You haven't even met the man!" Agh! Slay. And then, "There is no will."

G: Yeah. You didn't even mention when Cas gets fucking tossed to a beam and then he falls through it, and then to get up, he like twirls! [C: Oh! Cute.] He literally does a princess twirlto fucking get on his feet.

C: Good for him. Yeah.

G: And then he braces himself with like, two fists beside his face. He is so goofy! [C laughs] He looks so small and scrungly, as the Tumblrinas slay.

C: Yeah. [laughs] You know, Uriel's punching Cas between sentences as he goes, "There is no will. No wrath. No God." Hell yeah! But then, extremely unfortunately, on the last punch, he gets stabbed from behind through the neck by Anna. Why did she come back? Why is she here? I don't think Cas like, told her. Okay, whatever. I guess she just came back to check on everyone, and this happened. But yeah, she does have a pretty banger line. She says, "Maybe. Or maybe not. But there's still me." God.

G: Hell yeah!

C: Yeah, I like that Anna's stance is like, agnosticism. Like, that seems like a nice place for her to land. And yeah, she pulls out the knife and Uriel collapses on the ground and then screams, and like, we see, like, a bunch of white light come out of his eyes and mouth, and like, basically, the building looks like it explodes. And then when we cut back. We see Uriel dead on the ground with his wings in the form of ashes all across the floor. It looks really neat. I am very sorry that Uriel's dead, though, and that this creates a pattern with Supernatural and Black angels in general. Yeah.

G: The shot of like, Cas and Anna. Like, Anna standing beside Cas and Cas is kneeling as though the light engulfs the room,that's like, pretty iconic. I see that a lot, too, around.

-

G: So we go to the hospital bed, and Dean is like, sitting next to him on like, the couch beside the bed, and he asks, "Are you alright?" And [laughs] he says, "No thanks to you." And Cas says, "You need to be more careful."

C: It's nice blocking. It feels a lot more like a conversation between equals.

G: Yeah, that's true. They start talking, and Cas is asking how Dean is, and Dean's like, "Bad." And Cas says, "You need to be more careful," and Dean says, "You need to learn how to manage a damn devil's trap." And Cas says, "Oh, no, that's not what I mean. Uriel is dead. It's not the demons. It's disobedience. He was working against us."

C: That's an interesting way to put it. "Disobedience"? Like, disobeying- I don't know. That's not how I would put it. Like, disobedience is something that Cas was considering earlier, but now he's-

G: This is like, more like treason, I would say?

C: Yeah, or like, rebellion, something something. But yeah, I don't know. Like, why does he use that word? Is he just sort of trying to distance himself emotionally from what's happened back there?

G: I think maybe it's like, this is Dean. Maybe if he was talking to someone else about it. But Dean is like, literally lying on a hospital bed right now, so like, let's not get into it, you know?

C: Sure.

G: Dean asks, "Is it true that I break the first seal?" And Cas says, "Yes. When we discovered Lilith's plan for you, we laid a siege to Hell to get you, but, you know. Too late." Dean asks, "Why didn't you leave me there?" And Cas says, "It's not blame that falls on you, Dean. It's fate," which, I love that line. I love it! "The righteous man who begins it is the only one who can finish it. You have to stop it." And Dean says, "What? Like, Lucifer? The Apocalypse? What does that mean?" Cas doesn't respond for a long time, and like, moves his head away. And yeah, Dean's like, "No, don't fucking disappear on me. What does that mean?" And Cas says, "I don't know! Like, they don't tell me much. But yeah, I know our faith rests with you." [C: Yeah.]And Dean says, "Well, then, you guys are screwed. I can't do it. It's too big. Alastair was right. I'm not all here. I'm not strong enough. I'm not the man either of our dads wanted me to be. Find someone else. It's not me."

C: I really like that-

G: And a single man tear-

C: Oh, yeah, I don't give a fuck about Dean. [laughing] I really like Cas said-

G: No, I don't really- Okay, go on.

C: Okay. I like the, "Dean, they don't tell me much." a lot.

G: Yeah.

C: Because, you know, earlier in the season, Cas is like, he's doing this thing where he like, seems so untouchable, and he's the one who's withholding information from Dean, and like, giving it to him on a need-to-know basis. And this is like, I feel like, a moment of vulnerability that, like, he is aware, is a moment of vulnerability unlike, all of his previous stuff where he's like, "Yeah, I like you, but that doesn't mean anything." This is like, "We're in the same position here."

G: And also this is like, could be a dangerous thing to tell Dean if he doesn't plan to keep on trusting this guy. [C: Yeah.] Because, like, suddenly, when Dean is asking questions and Cas just goes, "It's a greater plan," like, it's easier for Dean to question him now, [C: Yeah.] 'cause he has revealed that he doesn't really know what the fuck that means. [C: Mm-hm.] It's both like, a reveal of vulnerability, of like, "I am not as powerful as you think I am," and also like, "And if you want to use that against me, you now can, due to I have volunteered that information to you." [C: Mm-hm.]

-

G: So yeah, what did we think about this episode?

C: I mean, it's good.

G: It's good. And it's one of those episodes where- I feel like there are some episodes where they can be good, it's just there are parts that are like, boring. Like, maybe the A-plot is good, but the B-plot is so-so, or the B-plot is good and the A-plot is confusing as hell. This is one of those instances where they pretty much just solidly stick to one plot [C: Yeah.], and it works. It's not boring, the pacing is good. It works. And I quite like that. [C: Yup.] I'm a big fan of, especially towards the end of Supernatural, where they would have a monster of the week that, like, morphs into a plot episode. Those are my favorites. My favorite episode, pretty much of all time in Supernatural- I don't know if I've said this before, and if I have, I'm not sure I said this episode. Like, maybe I said something else, like "Dog Dean Afternoon" or whatever. [C laughs] But like, my favorite episode of Supernatural is "Ouroboros." [C: Yeah.] And that episode is, it's a case episode, and then something real bad happens at the end, and it becomes a plot episode. Like that episode is essential to the plot, but, you know, it's a case. And towards the end of Supernatural, those ones are real good because, like, you need to spice up the case episode somehow, but, like, here in Season 4, I do like that they kind of keep it separate. The case episodes are case episodes, and the plot episodes are plot episodes. I feel like separating it in those ways kind of like, gives the plot episodes like, so much energy and so much like, "Ooh!" Like, you know it, it gives it- it makes it so meaty, so dense.

C: Yeah. Best Line/Worst Line? I really like Cas's "Anna, I don't know what to do. Please tell me what to do." And I like that Anna like, does like, a slight little smile, and says, "Like the old days." in response, like, calling it out for what it is. It's a great exchange!

G: I think my best line for me is the one I spent a really long time talking about. The "Dean, we know this is difficult for you" and "We don't care." Uriel's response to that. Not exactly for the line itself, but just the surrounding like, visuals of it, I really quite like. Also, additional best line, as I said, I really like that Alastair was singing. I like it! [C laughs] So I'm putting that as a best line also. Worst line-

C: I do think the moments where I was sort of taken out of it is when, you know, Anna's like, "Torture? That's God's will" or whatever, 'cause it's like, I don't think Supernatural has a good stance on that. I feel like they don't- Yeah, they're just saying shit.

G: There's a line where Dean is like, [laughs] preparing his torture materials, and Alastair's, you know, Alastair goes, "He was supposed to bring it on"--like, John--"John was supposed to bring it on, but in the end, it was you." And Dean goes, "Bring what on?" I don't like that he inquires in that moment.

C: Right, you feel like he wouldn't engage in that. 

G: Yeah, I feel like he wouldn't engage in that. And also, the entire conversation could go the exact same way minus that line. [C: Yeah.] Like, Alastair will just keep on talking. He does not need prompting. I feel like Dean prompting that, I just think he wouldn't do it. And when I was watching it, I did go, "That's not something he would say."

So, spreadsheets?

C: It's hard to quantify the racism of Uriel’s death because it's like- I feel like the way that we have this structure where it's episode-by-episode points doesn't seem to like, account for the fact that, like, a lot of the racism of Supernatural is just like, an ongoing problem, and this is just some part of that. 

G: Something we say a lot with Supernatural is like, "If this was any other show, this would probably be fine, [C: Right.] but because it's in Supernatural, where it's already existing in the context of every single other thing that they do that you can describe as such in the show, it's like, 'Well, it is in Supernatural, and they do have a history of doing this over and over again, and not doing anything else that can like, maybe provide their female characters or their characters who are not white with any more like, characterization, or they're not given the same benevolence or the same like, care. They're not engaged with the same care that like, Sam or Dean' or whatever," It's like, yeah.So I don't really know what to put.

C: Yeah. We gave 4.10 two points in racism, which was for, I think, Uriel's misogyny being part of the larger Supernatural pattern of making Black male characters unlikable by having the misogynistic to white women. [G: Yeah.] Was Ruby possessing the maid also in 4.10?

G: Yes.

C: So that's probably why we gave that two points. So then, Uriel's death would probably be like, a bump up from that.

G: A 3?

C: Yeah, like, a 3. Is that reasonable?

G: I think so, yeah.

C: Okay, cool. Misogyny... I think it was fine? [G: Yeah.] I don't recall any.

G: Yeah.

C: Okay.

G: So, IMDb.

C: Okay, people like this. I'd say it's a 9.

G: People like this. I think this is a 9 point something.

C: Yeah. Same.

G: I would go for a 9.4, even. 9.4

C: Oh, wow. I think I was aiming more for like, 9.2 range? Well, okay, "Laz Rising" got a 9.4. I feel like people like this about as much but a little less than "Laz Rising," so maybe a 9.3? I'm gonna go with that. 

G: Okay. Well, let us see. It's a 9.1. [C: Okay.] Still pretty high, not as high as I thought it would be. But this is still a highly-rated episode

Oh god, the fucking- You know how like, they have those photos that are like, not exactly in the episode, but like, it's in the promo or whatever? It's in the sides. I don't know-

C: Oh, the Cas's fat ass one? [both laughing]

G: The Cas's fat ass picture! You know, I told you about the bookmark, right? [C: Yeah.] I have a bookmark of Cas. Back-to-back. That shit is back-to-back. And the front is the picture from last episode, and the back is [laughs] this picture of Cas looking like this. [C laughs] Crazy!

C: Hell yeah.

G: I mean, I don't expect any funny reviews on this because, like, the funny reviews are usually in the episodes that are a bit bad. Oh my god, this one is " Unwatchable... seriously, it was almost painful "

C: Aw, why? Did they think Alastair's voice was annoying?

G: They don't like Alastair.

C: Yeah, there were moments when I was like, "It's a bit much." Huh! What? This person says that they don't like Anna. Like, "I know Anna saved the day and saved Castiel, but to me she is no different from Ruby. Both are manipulative and can't be trusted." I think you might have had a problem with women? What did Anna do wrong?

G: I think part of it is that -

C: Just that, like, her sleeping with Dean is sort of paralleled with Sam sleeping with Ruby or something? Like, is that what it is? Is it just her trying to get Cas to like, join her? Is that-? She's fine, though. What'd she do?

G: I mean, I think we did say that like, the Dean and Anna stuff, blah blah blah. But I feel like it's a different thing than the Cas and Anna stuff.

C: Also, the show doesn't frame it as-

G: Doesn't engage with it that way. I think part of it is-

C: - sleeping with Dean at an emotionally vulnerable moment, so that's- Yeah, I don't know what it is. What do you think it is?

G: The Cas scene is like, she's trying to hold his hand, and that can be seen as like, "She's trying to elicit an emotion out of him through physicality," which I don't agree with like, at all. I think she's just a human being who's used to being in a human society.

C: Yeah, she spent a lot of time being a person, yeah.

G: And she understands that if you want to connect with a person in ways mere words can't bridge, you do tend to touch, to like, show that kind of like, "And this is what I mean, and I'm touching you so you understand that I mean it for real." [C: Mm-hm.] That's how I read that scene. And, like, thing is just Cas doesn't have those social mores, and like, the moment he understands that that's what Anna is trying to say, like, he gets offended, too, so. [C: Yeah.] But I don't think that's manipulation.

C: Yeah, she's trying to convince him.

G: Well, I think that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 4, Episode 17: "It's a Terrible Life." Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts. C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com. G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

#transcript

[tuiyla]

Tina ask to hopefully brighten ur day :)

I can't remember a time where Tina got a storyline of her own (aside from maybe the crush on blaine but like. That was uncomfortable and also just revolves around another boy) so what kinds of storylines would you have liked to see for her?

I think a major problem with Tina storylines is that a) in the first half of the series they don't center around her and b) in the second half, they're played for jokes. I talk a lot about this with Brittana, how a big difference between their season 1 stuff and later seasons is that in season 1 they weren't main characters so they played a supporting role in others' stories and only later got to be the focus. But Tina was supposedly a main character throughout, except in season 6 (though by that point, it didn't make a difference). And for what? She gets minimal one-episode plots in season 1 that either happen mostly off-screen (The Power of Madonna) or are actually about Artie. This repeats but with Mike instead of Artie in seasons 2 and 3. Why isn't she centered in her own story, isn't she supposed to be a main character? Supposed to be. I'd also encourage people to take note of the type of lines she gets, when she even gets them. It's super generic stuff that could be said by anyone, like "oh no, Quinn what happened?" or "but Rachel said xyz". That's... that's not a main character. Ashamed to say I recently rewatched The Spanish Teacher and did not notice her absence. But that says a lot about her role, doesn't it.

And then come Props, and we start treating her as a joke. She makes some good points but gets sidelined yet again. Like you say, centering her stuff around a boy continues but instead of at least getting to be a supportive gf she's now creepy, sad and bitter. She becomes the butt of many jokes. And that wouldn't even necessarily be a problem if she had anything else. An actual arc, more depth, any sign that the writers, underneath it all, cared about her. But nope, her treatment just gets lampshaded and then they double down. Ugh.

So now that I complained about all that, what should have been done differently? The first that comes to mind is the writers getting rid of her stutter just nine episodes in, presumably because they realized they don't know how to write her like that. I'm thinking that they didn't know how to write Tina, a shy character at all. Not in this larger than life, ridiculous cast of characters with the strong satire vibes of season 1. But I wouldn't retcon that she faked the stutter, I'd lean into it. She's painfully shy but actually really effervescent. Like Glee helps others become their true selves, it helps Tina open up. Give her a plot where Finn steps up as a leader and encourages her to sing more and audition for stuff, following the Tonight incidence in Preggers. Where Rachel acknowledges her talent once she sees how much Tina struggles. Where it's Artie who helps her for once. And Mertina friendship moments! Much more Mertina in season 1.

Tina learning to be confident and navigating her introverted and shy nature, navigating her stutter could have been an arc for at least the first three seasons. She should get other stuff in-between but have her go on this overall arc. She's still introverted at the end of the day and still has a stutter but learns to stand up for herself and hang with this group of friends. If the writers were feeling particularly generous, have a Quinntina storyline about the contrast of Quinn's popularity and how much she seeks being on top of the social hierarchy vs Tina wanting to stay far away. They can help each other balance it out. And then come season 4 and Tina's confidence doesn't come out of nowhere and her demands are respected and she's given a fair shot instead of being ridiculed.

That's just a general direction in which I would have taken her, but it makes space for her to have a larger role in other episodes or even just solid B plots throughout. A lot of it can still be played for comedy, too, just give her agency in it all and some triumph at the end of the day. Most importantly, make her the focus in whatever storyline she does get. Because the first three seasons were most definitely not it and later on she becomes a punching bag.

#glee asks #tina cohen-chang #justice for tina #md-drawz #gleewrite #complete sidenote but tumblr once again disabled asks lmao #i mean i'm very behind so maybe that's for the best but like #stoooop tumblr i shall decide when and what to do

[strangertheory]

"anti-Mileven"

I know you submitted this as a message and not an Ask, but I hope you don't mind if I answer your question with a longer post because this is a topic that is important to me but is complicated. I've meant to do a post about this, but kept putting it off because it is a very layered topic for me and my thoughts about Mileven are probably not what a lot of fans want to hear.

I respect that everyone develops an attachment to their preferred couples in stories for personal reasons, and as such any criticism of the dynamic between two characters that are dating can feel like a very personal criticism. I respect everyone's head-canons and favorite ships as sacred ground: I don't want to tell anyone how they should or should not relate to a story. That's unique to each of us as fans, and we will all enjoy Stranger Things for different reasons.

However: I do have some thoughts regarding the way that the narrative has established the dynamic between Mike and El. And I personally do not find their dynamic *as it currently is* to be one that is ideal for either of them yet.

I really care about Eleven and I really care about Mike. They are two of my favorite characters in the story.

To say that I'm "anti-Mileven" is a huge oversimplification of how I feel about Mike and El's dynamic.

I am very much anti:

overlooking the fact El has been treated as a lab rat and abused and isolated from society for the majority of her existence and her ignorance of her own identity and her own desires is repeatedly reinforced canonically. ("How do I know what I like?") El has spent only a few months out in the world beyond her cell at the lab and beyond Hopper's cabin, she knows very little about the world yet, and she is being taught much of what she now knows by her boyfriend who also happens to be one of the few people she interacts with in her daily life. The power difference and social difference between them is huge currently regardless of whether Mike is a nice kid with good intentions or not, and they are both fourteen years olds.

overlooking that it is superficial and not representative of a "deep" relationship to only kiss and make out with a significant other and not do other meaningful activities that establish a real day-to-day relationship (like hanging out with friends and other loved ones as a couple.) There's a popular misconception that the act of two people kissing is inherently romantic and a sign of emotional closeness. But kissing becomes romantic psychologically when two people share a deep affection for one another that is based on shared experiences and emotional and psychological connectedness. If two characters can be shown to care about one another without ever physically touching, they have the potential for a deep connection that is based on more than the thrill of physical affection. Give me a well-developed relationship first, and then kissing will seem romantic to me. Without an established psychological and emotional connection between characters, kissing is merely a superficial representation of the idea of intimacy between characters without any actual substance underneath. Sure that's what kids do when they're figuring out how dating and feelings and physical intimacy work and it's not harmful in itself provided that they are both comfortable with it, but keep this in mind within the context of the other concerns I list here.

trivializing Mike's dishonesty and blaming Hopper for Mike's lying when the truth is Mike could have easily explained to El that Hopper didn't want them spending as much time together and having some space would be better. El is well aware of Hopper's dislike for their time spent together. This should have been a very easy conversation. As Lucas rightfully asks as Mike is ranting about the situation he got himself into: "Why lie?" Good question, Lucas. Good question. El asks Mike this again later at the mall. "Why do you lie?" Mike stares back at her with an awkward expression, and does NOT answer her. Why is this answer not an easy one? Why has Mike still not addressed things with El? I think there is more going on here than just Hopper's threats.

I am very in favor of:

El learning more about who she is and what she wants to do with her life outside of the desires and expectations of other people.

Mike figuring out how to effectively express his thoughts and feelings honestly. He is clearly struggling to do this throughout season 3, and it is uncharacteristic of the kid who defiantly said and did what he wanted frequently in seasons 1 and 2. Clearly Mike is not comfortable and is nervous, which is understandable for someone exploring new emotionally vulnerable territory like dating for the first time, but he needs to learn to be honest and tell people how he is thinking and feeling or else he is also putting himself and his feelings and needs at risk and potentially establishing an unhealthy relationship that will hurt him and hurt others even if he doesn't mean to. Mike's nervousness is STILL present in the final goodbye scene in which Mike and El talk, and El tells him she loves him and kisses him. He is still stumbling over his words and anxious, and he seems notably confused after El kisses him. These small details are not trivial, they are clearly intentional.

Recognizing that Mike is the first person her age that was kind to El when she escaped the lab, and given that she has only known pain and abuse her entire life and has never known friendship let alone romance that her psychological readiness for understanding a romantic relationship is NOT the same as an ordinary 14 year old's and this cannot be stated enough.

Recognizing that societal pressures and personal insecurities might be a huge factor in how Mike clings to El's attention and affection for him, and that there is evidence in the story that supports this interpretation. We know that Mike is bullied frequently, and that there is a layer of homophobia often involved. (Even if James and Troy were speaking rudely about Will, they were still directly confronting Mike. The implication is there.) We know that Lucas yelled at Mike "No Mike. You're blind. Blind because you like that a girl's not grossed out by you!" This reveals that Lucas knows that Mike is insecure and wants validation. Just because Mike has a desperate desire to be loved and liked by a girl does not mean that his appreciation of El's attention is based on his genuine romantic affection for her. Mike might be dating El because he enjoys the attention, he likes being liked, and he likes how having a girlfriend makes him feel more accepted and normal.

Recognizing that every moment that Mike has tried to share something that he is passionate about with El (the Yoda figurine, the dinosaurs) she has been completely disinterested. Since El has no cultural connection to the pop culture stories Mike loves and she lived in the Lab her entire life, it makes perfect sense that she will have no interest in these toys. Her lack of interest in what Mike is passionate about, however, is worth noting: not because it's a bad thing, but because it's just one of many reasons they are "not even from the same planet" and cannot bond and connect easily. El has lived an incredibly different life from Mike, has suffered through so much, and is still learning about the outside world and about herself. She is severely behind in social and personal development. She needs time to learn and to grow and to heal so she can live her best life and recover from what she has been through. (She doesn't really care about your Star Wars toys, Michael, because she just learned what a phone is and is processing a lot of other things right now.)

*I want to credit @kaypeace21 for pointing out many of these particular observations listed above: you can read her very detailed and extensive analysis in her post here: El is Not in Love with Mike.

These are just a few of many thoughts I have regarding Mike and El's dynamic together, and why I find the romanticization and idealization of their dating relationship to be more suited to fan-canon and fanfiction. For El to have a relationship with Mike that I would personally enjoy and appreciate, the story would need to convincingly allow her to establish a notably better understanding of who she is and what she wants, and have time to heal from her trauma and learn a lot more about the outside world. While I suspect that the Byers moving away will be very difficult for Will, in many ways I think it will benefit El tremendously and I hope that she is given more opportunities to learn and to grow.

I also agree with @hawkinsschoolcounselor 's hypothesis that Mike is projecting his feelings for Will onto El. It's impossible for me to see Mike's dynamic with El as entirely separate from Mike's relationship with Will because El was found in the woods when they were looking for Will in season 1, El helped everyone find Will in the Upside Down and saved his life, and El reappears at the end if season 2 and saves Will from the Mindflayer. Until season 3, El's appearance in Mike's life has been directly tied to Will's survival and safety. I do not think this is a trivial aspect of El's narrative. El's importance within the larger story being told is repeatedly tied back to what Will is dealing with. The reason that El and Will's narratives are so deeply intertwined has not been revealed in the story yet, but I suspect that there are some important aspects of El and Will's stories that haven't been fully revealed yet that will bring all of these seemingly isolated plot threads together. The creators of Stranger Things repeatedly tie El and Will together visually and narratively (re: @kaypeace21), and I believe there is a very specific reason for this.

I look forward to seeing what happens in season 4. Whether my interpretation of El and Mike's dynamic is fair or not, I trust the writers have a compelling next chapter in their story for us all to enjoy.

#anti mileven #antimileven #anti-mileven #stranger things #stranger things theory #but not actually anti mileven I am tagging it that way because I am critical #so fans can choose to not read my thoughts

[fujosh1dreamer]

Alright it's time for more of my controversial opinions on the she Ra finally, as some might know I didn't like it too much. To clarify I thought it started out really well at first and I was really excited to see where it would go, but by like episode 5 or whatever I just knew. It was sort of anticlimatic if I'm honest, and I have a few honest criticisms. Now I'm not gonna go through all these now, I'm actually just gonna focus on what I considered to be the biggest problem of season 5 and honestly the whole show.

Before I get into it this is just my honest opinions and if I hated the show I wouldn't have kept up with all the season and been a fan. I love she Ra and I really wanted to love season 5 I just couldn't. That's not to say it was bad, there was a lot of good stuff.

Also, also I am going to be talking about Catra and adora and their relationship. I'm not an anti or anything it's just a few comments about the execution. This is about Catra as a whole not just this one ship.

Let's begin: Catra has always been a well liked but controversial character back in seasons 1 and 2 her actions were fine, while harsh she was at least understandable to an extent. Most people who liked her wanted to she her growth and redemption. Me on the other hand I've never been a fan personally but I didn't mind her too much early on. Later, however is where the problems come into play.

In order for season 5 to have worked Catra needed to be properly redeemed because she's done some awful crap. And to make my case I'll list off a few things she's done: actively attacked adora and her friends on multiple occasions, took enjoyment out of hurting others and seeing the horde take over, stabbed entrapta in the back literally, threatened scorpia, and opened the portal.

Now I know what you're thinking, yes we know this, so what she's better now in season 5 she's redeemed herself. Yes at the end of season 5 Catra is redeemed but the question is how? And why?

Catra and her redemption story has been compared to zuko and his story. Which I think is a little unfair because it's just not on the same level. Don't get me wrong compared to other redemption attempts it's definitely a win. I don't wanna compare these two it's not necessary people learn and grow in different ways.

I didn't like Catra's redemption because it felt too easy. It didn't hurt and because it wasn't painful it didn't feel earned. However people who talked about Catra and season 5 talked about it making them cry and honesty it only made me tear up one and it wasn't ever in a scene about Catra or adora, or even glimmer. It was when entrapta was talking to mermista and she realized that everyone was mad at her. So maybe my emotions are just shot, or something.

Despite not like season 5 all that much I did however like Catra this season. I've never liked Catra, I liked her momentarily in season 3 before she started making horrible decision, but other than that I didn't like her. So in season 5 Catra was well written. And it's because of character interaction.

Something spop has always done well is showing us how characters interact and what their dynamic is which makes scenes more interesting and how Catra talked with everyone was great it felt natural, almost too natural. I get that our heroes are supposed to be forgiving they're heroes but it's one thing to forgive and another thing to forget completely. There are only two times Catra really gets called out for her previous actions. The first is when frosta bless her heart, punches Catra right on the face and this scene is played off for laughs because Catra brushes off the punch and also frosta apologizes because she didn't realize Catra is on their side now. They all just too adora's word about Catra being good now. Then she's confronted again by perfuma who's just upset about how she treated scorpia. Which was bad we'll talk about that later but she's done so many other things to get mad over. Like anyone remember when mermista's home got taken over Catra pratically led that siege, mermista was heartbroken she lost her home.

So that's issue one how she integrates easily into being friends with everyone else.

Next is...

Oof, let's talk about Glimmer and Catra. Them being stuck together was interesting because their situation helped them both grow and tested their resolve which is great. Their relationship is really well written. We just have one small, tiny problem... Catra killed glimmers mom!!!

Are we just never gonna talk about that I mean the opening of the portal in season 3 and the death of Angella are two really big issue because they're the point of no return for Catra and Glimmer.

Catra actively opening the portal to spite adora and potentially destroy the planet turned Catra from a simple kid making mistakes because of her circumstances to someone who genuinely doesn't care about the suffering and potential death of others as long as she can prove a point. It made her a real threat and a potential villain.

Angellas death made glimmer queen and it also made her cold and willing to seek vengeance despite them being the good guys. She was willing to take matters into her own hands even if it meant going a little too far. Both of these characters changed in season 3 and those continued into season 4.

So if these events had such a great impact why aren't they brought up??? Simple because we need a happy ending and that can't happen if we're talking about dead parents.

Out of all the people that Catra apologised to shouldn't glimmer be first on that list. Doesn't she deserve at least that much.

My next point and the one I'm probably most bitter about is Catra and scorpia.

It's safe to say their relationship has always been a little weird. In the very beginning of seems very one sided with Scorpia hanging onto catra's every word. Then with time we see that Catra does actually care about scorpia she just doesn't like to show it. Which is fine until you guessed it season 3 where Catra's character really falls down to the point of no return.

So let's recap throughout season 3 while Catra and scorpia were together you could see the beginning of something and honesty it was pretty cute. Then the ending happened and Catra attacks entrapta and threatened to do the same to scorpia and suddenly everything was broken. All throughout season 4 we see nothing but hurtful words from Catra towards everyone but especially scorpia who's just being loyal. Finally scorpia gets tired and she basically puts Catra through one more test involving Emily before deciding to leave.

This relationship was the one I was really looking forward to seeing in season 5, but all we get is one small apology in the last episode and that's it.

Throughout this season they pratically had scorpia and Catra forget about each other completely.

When scorpia left the horde she did it because she felt she had to in order to both save entrapta and Emily. She wasn't fully okay with her decision until she met the other princesses and realized they're nothing like the horde. Still she never forgot about Catra because scorpia's whole thing is loyalty so how did she just get over her feelings for Catra especially when doesn't know where she is and hasn't heard anything about her. I know the situation was dangerous but still.

It was all pretty upsetting. Moving on...

In my final moments I wanna talk about catradora and also a little about shadoweaver.

Shadoweaver died and well... I expected that you really can't redeem her. It's not impossible but no one would ever accept it because people can't really change and nothing can ever make up for the mistakes she made in the past and the way she manipulated people. It's weird how I can't tell of I'm talking about shadoweaver or Catra anymore. They did a lot of the same things and yet... Catra is never really blamed for anything. Same with Hordak the fandom blames him for crap all the time but when Catra hurts people it's okay. Shadoweaver and Hordak are different cases they're older than her, well let's compare glimmer in season 4 grieving over her mother and making mistakes and everyone getting mad and expecting her to be held accountable, why is there such a double standard for Catra???

Anywho Catra and Adora's relationship is apparently the only thing everyone cared about will they be together??? After season 3 the chances were very small, but guess what they ended up together. Honestly when I say I get a little annoyed around episode 5 it's because they made it really obvious they're gonna end up together happily ever after style. Honestly I don't have the energy after this long post to criticize it. I just wish it was a little more tactful in the beginning and less blatantly obvious. But whatever!!!

#she ra #spop #she ra netflix #she ra catra #she ra bow #she ra glimmer #spop adora #spop catra #she ra frosta #spop glimmer #she ra shadow weaver #she ra s5 #spop 5 #spop 4 #netflix she ra #spop scorpia #spop season 5 #she ra pop #she ra review #she ra rant #noelle stevenson #spop entrapta #entrapta #adora #catra #catra redemption #long post #im tired #angella #queen angella

[letterstothemidnightsociety]

Previously On Supernatural Season 3, we had a really rock solid trio of episodes to kick us off right, so what does SPN do next? It’s gonna lay the groundwork for some spicy character development that may or may not pay off by the end of the season. Let's find out!

To be honest, I felt the next three episodes just sort of plateau? There’s enough nuggets in these three eps - “Sin City”, “Bedtime Stories”, and “Red Sky at Morning” - that it does feel like they’re setting up for something big but it’s taking too much time. If the season had been longer, I don’t know that I’d be complaining, because there’s SO much potential introduced with these character developments, but I know it’s gonna get cut off at the knees in the very near future. 2021 Me has been trained on what to expect from a short season, so half of my brain wants to give the show slack for Unexpected Circumstances, but the other half of my brain is shouting YOUR NOT DRIVING THE BUS FAST ENOUGH, YOU’LL NEVER MAKE IT TO THE END OF THE LINE IN TIME!!!

And that’s maybe unfair because there really are some great nuggets in here. We’ve got “Sin City”, which is Dean’s episode. I mean, they’re ALL Dean’s episode, but this one more so than the other two in this post. Dean gets trapped with a demon who turns out to be...kinda...nice? In kind of a Stockholm Syndromey way I guess? She let’s Dean in on the fate that awaits him when his year long contract is up and it is NOT great. This isn’t the first time we see that there’s more to the demons than SPN has shown us in the past (hello, Ruby), but it is the first time Dean chills out enough to actually have a conversation with one. Dean doesn’t really get it, like he’s still not interested in getting out of his deal, but the fear gets planted, it just needs some time to grow. Oh, also, the Colt Ex Machina is back in action, so that's important.

This dumb bitch thinks he can fool us with that devil-may-care side glance but he caaaan't

But then we get “Bedtime Stories”, the Sam episode, where Sam learns...to let go? That’s the point of this episode right? It’s about letting go of someone before that person becomes too toxic and dangerous? At least, that’s the lesson that Dean wants Sam to take away from this case. But Sam will NOT learn this lesson, so instead he tries to cancel Dean’s deal by killing the crossroads demon who wrote it. Spoiler Alert: it doesn't work.

And then we get “Red Sky At Morning”, which opens and closes with some heavy emotional baggage, but then is stuffed full of fun. Like, this episode ricochets wildly in terms of Feelings, but then that’s probably what we should expect from SPN. I mean, what show have I been watching for 3 seasons now?

Fun Facts guys: I’m a tired Millenial, and swapping DVD discs was too much work so I switched over to watching this season on Netflix and GUESS WHAT???? THESE EPISODES COME WITH A SUICIDE WARNING!?!?!

They're not wrong.

And like, if that doesn’t tell you everything you need to know about this season I don’t know WHAT will. Cuz Dean is absolutely suicidal and I am surprised (??) I guess (???) by how much the show acknowledges that. Or I guess, surprised by how much Netflix acknowledges that. It’s something that I did not...pick up on the first go around on season 3, possibly because I was 19 and I was an idiot and found this sort of emotional vulnerability to be endearing. Listen, I know there’s a lot to be said about the producers of the show making...umm…poor decisions in regards to character developments? But if the target demographic of this show was anything like me - and I suspect they were - then the viewers were also...probably...responding inappropriately to some of those character developments. And here’s the thing - I’m looking at this from 12 years in the future, with 12 years worth of real life drama that makes the heavy handed melodrama of television feel...well, heavy handed. Maybe irresponsible? Certainly a little uncomfortable. Big Me is having A Time confronting Little Me’s taste in TV Characters. It’s one thing to have a kink, Little Me, it’s another thing to romanticize suicidal depression.

And hey, I can’t deny that the character development for Dean makes sense. I actually appreciate that the show is thinking through the world and the relationship dynamics that they’ve built and the toll that these misadventures are having on their main characters. These episodes all get bookended by Impala Fights where Sam keeps pushing Dean to give a shit about his own life and Dean responds with an inability to care. That’s just where he is right now, and I get that. We’re early in the season still. But how will the rest of the season handle this? I honestly can’t remember but I also don’t want this to be a throw-away issue that they use to remind us that Dean’s supposed to die at the end of the season. I’m prob gonna come back to this throughout the season because I ~just~want~this~show~to be~repsonsiblllllleeeeeeeeeeee.

Lol, I know, that’s a lot to ask from the CW.

ON TO MORE FUN THINGS!!

Sam is gettin’ reeeeeallll bitchy in these episodes and #1, I love it, Bitchy Sam 5Ever, but also #2, was this supposed to be the sign that Sam was going darkside? Like, he’s snarky, he’s angry, he’s not pulling any punches and that could just be him reacting to his brother’s situation but it could also be….you know...him...becoming slightly...evil? For instance in “Sin City”, he kills the two demons who kidnapped Dean without even thinking. On the one hand, this is the Winchester MO, they kill demons, that’s their job, but on the other hand, Dean is actively telling Sam to stop. Same deal in “Bed Time Stories” - Sam kills the crossroads demon in cold blood (or maybe viscera). Again, we could blame this on instinct - the Winchesters were brought up to do exactly this - but 1) Dean keeps telling Sam not to and 2) that’s not Sam. This show spent 2 seasons telling us that Sam is the Good Brother, the White Hat, the Touchy-Feely One. This is not the Touchy Feely Sam who reasons with ghosts and falls in love with werewolves. Like, everyone else sees it too, right? Also, he is usually very nice to everyone but he is a REAL BITCH to Gertrude in “Red Sky at Morning.” Like, come on, Sam, she just wants to have a nice time. She is OLD. You really think she’s got what it takes to climb that tree?

Honestly, how tall are this lady's heels?

I know that there was a plan for Sam to start Turning in this season before the show’s episode order got slashed due to the Writer’s Strike. And man, I really would have liked to have seen this play out. Like, first season Sam is the Innocent, right? He’s our stand in for the viewer in those first few episodes and then he’s revealed to be kind of the only thing that went right in the lives of both John and Dean, so Baby Must Be Protected at All Costs. The fact that John ultimately lets Sam go off to college and doesn’t contact him for the next four years says to me that on some level, John felt the need to preserve that innocence, that kind of untouched quality Sam has. Dean is very similar - whenever Sam gets too into the job, Dean calls him out on it. So in the second season when we find out that Sam might be evil, it’s a real punch in the gut, for Dean most of all. But then the show admittedly got bored with that storyline and it didn’t really go anywhere. So whereas Dean has personality in SPADES that fluctuates and changes and develops/maybe just gets more intense as the show goes on, Sam remains that kind of blank slate that the viewer can put their face on. Except now we’re in season three, and if you’ve bought into this show, then you’ve bought into it, so the audience doesn’t need a Blank Slate Sam anymore. And if you start with Sam the Innocent and then introduce the idea of Dark!Sam and then just leave that concept hanging, then isn’t this sort of like Checkov’s Evil Sam? If you introduce Evil Sam in the first act you really ought to deliver on Evil Sam by act three, right? Wouldn’t that have been A+ and Wild? Wouldn’t that have made Sam’s arc and emotional struggles over the previous seasons have more weight?

Will this be resolved in later seasons? Maybe. I’m gonna be honest, this is the last season I watched all the way through and seasons 4 through...like, 8 were real touch and go for me. I know that Sam ultimately is revealed to be a vessel for??? The devil??? And Dean is ultimately revealed to be a vessel for??? Michael??? And then the two of them???? Fight to the death???? Point is, season 5 got weird guys and I’m not there yet.

Back to more fun things! You know what guys?? I think I ship Dean and Bela. I’m...almost ashamed to admit it? Like, I remember Little Me watching this season and just dumping on Bela, I HATED her, but this time? I am 1,000% On Board This Ship. Like, there is an alternate universe somewhere where these two got a spinoff show that ran for 6 seasons and I watched EVERY episode. And then, like, 5 years after it ended, they rebooted it with Dean and Bela’s grown up daughter as the lead and the whole OG cast makes cameos over the three seasons it stays on the air and it’s amazing. I’d own both shows on DVD.

What I like about Bela this time around (and again, I am WILDLY surprised about this development), is that she can dish it just as hard as the Winchesters can. Like, every line Dean throws at her she holds up a mirror to say, “Oh yes, I know the Kettle is black, but what color are you, Pot?” and I’m just continually thrilled. She is also just as damaged as Dean is but somehow channeling it into a healthier way? Like, she’s true Chaotic Neutral, which is not necessarily healthy, it’s just healthier than Dean. Or maybe it’s just that she’s better at managing it. In either case, they are HOT MESSES and I love it. I just love it. I know I complained about shoehorned romances but Ackles and Lauren Cohan just totally crush it in every scene and when Dean walks down the stairs all She’s All That in “Red Sky at Morning”, I yelled at the screen OMG just BONE already!!!!! And then like, 5 seconds later, Bela literally says “We should really have angry sex,” and it was probably the most vindicating moment I’ve had on this ride so far.

I just think they're neat!

WHY did we cancel her? WHY?? I don’t want to believe it was the Wincest again, so I’m gonna pretend that it wasn’t, but it was definitely fans. According to Kripke, Bela gets the axe at the end of this season because of the fan hatred of her. Now, I’ve already admitted that I personally held a grudge, but good Lord, what was wrong with us, as a Fandom? To be fair to me (and all of us), would we have felt differently if we had not been introduced to Jo a mere season earlier?? I'm gonna say yes. Although I had misgivings about Jo the first episode we meet her, by the end of season 2 I was certainly on her side. Working through season 3, I am remembering that, when we were introduced to Bela, I was immediately FURIOUS because WTF, WHERE’S JO? SPN just introduced to her. They just settled on a love interest for Dean and the writer’s just got me on board with that. Now they’ve completely done away with both that character AND that dynamic and you want me to get on board this NEW thing? And be excited about it??? So I'm gonna blame the love-interest-whiplash, combined with the fact that Little Me related my own personal self more to Jo than to Bela, that made me hate Bela in the first place. When you look at how quickly the show abandoned one character to introduce another character, it makes sense why fans got mad, but I’m also mad that we continued to hate Bela when she turned out to be such an A+ Frenemy. It makes me want to shout at the writers through the time void COMMIT TO A FEMALE CHARACTER YOU JAGWEEDS.

What’s wild watching this show now is just how Male it was, especially considering its audience was already skewed heavily female by this point in the series. If you made this show today, I don’t know that you could do that. Today, there’s a real push for balanced, diverse casts in programming, especially in sci-fi/fantasy and young adult. I think if SPN had started in 2021, they would have introduced the Harvell’s or Bela up in season 1, and that introduction would have been much more intentional. The benefit of having a shorter episode count as the standard is that there’s less of the “throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks” approach. Looking at it from 2021, reading snippets of interviews from Kripke, that’s definitely what they’re doing with the side characters in these seasons and you can feel that in Jo and Bela. A shorter season means that the storytelling has to be tighter, it can’t wander, so every decision has to be a load-bearing decision. On the other hand, one of the down sides of having a shorter episode count is the exact same thing - less room to throw stuff, less room to experiment. Heck, Bobby was technically a character they threw at the wall and he didn’t just stick, he became a tentpole character of the series. The only side character that actually made it into the series finale even!

So how much room should we be giving our television programs? I think it depends on the show, honestly. I think you have to decide up front if you want space to experiment, or if you have one, tight, compact story line that’s gonna drive viewers from episode 1 right through the finale without giving them the chance to catch their breath. You have to make the decision, but that doesn’t mean we have to stop making one style of show in favor of the other. Just because we’re in the Age of Streaming doesn’t mean there isn’t room enough for both.

#Supernatural #Supernatural season 3 #Supernatural rewatch #Sin City #Bedtime Stories #Red Sky at Morning #Sam Winchester #Dean Winchester #Bobby Singer #Bela Talbot #TV #TV history #TV format

[sothischickshe]

21 35 45 62 please! :D

Ah these are so good!!

21. Character(s) you wish we saw more?

Amber!!!!! We were robbed of her presence in s3.

35. Which relationship do you think has had the most solid development throughout the show?

Honestly, probably beth and rio's? I feel like it's had the most development and flux, plus we've literally seen its entire trajectory. And it's always compelling, if unfortunate to look at.

45. What do you want to see in season 4?

Oh so many things!

A full season

Beth and dean's divorce

Amber, lots of Amber

Rio and mick hanging out, chatting nonsense

Annie getting a girlfriend

Annie not being kicked in the gut a million times when she's already down

Beth and stan scenes

Beth and Ben scenes

The girls actually making SOME bank, it doesn't have to be loads, I'd just like it if the plot wasn't always one step forwards two steps back in this regard, and the reason they're stuck doing this is because they're in too deep rather than fuck they've lost all their money again (or spent it on a hitman)

Ruby and stan are happy

Beth dating/banging someone who isn't dean (ew) or rio. It doesn't have to be hockey dad cop or hot coach or rhea but those are all solid options

Beth and rio developing a weary begrudging almost friendship

Mick Ruby annie friendship

More Nancy and Annie stuff

More Ruby and Diane stuff

More beth and Judith stuff

any of the girls going 'say dyou think it's strange how Turner died around the same time rio popped back up hrrm?'

Turner's reappearance (men can't die, cmon)

More flashbacks of the girls

Boomer brutalised bloody (if men can't die at least give me some gore)

Beth and rio try to play pool

Assuredly more stuff, but this was just off the top

62. Do you think we will see more of Rio’s storyline? Will we get more Marcus? We will get to see more of the people he works with besides the girls? Do you think we will see more of Rhea?

I think we'll probably get a lil more of Rio's storyline as the show progresses, yes. I think that's just natural. I know it was a lil frustrating that it felt like there was a fair bit in the first few eps of the season and then not much, but I DO think that would have picked up in the last few eps of the season. That's kind of how the seasons normally play out?

Yea there'll probably be more Marcus, and again I think there might have been more towards the end of the season had it existed. Jane and marcus' friendship was fairly significant at the start of the season so maybe that would have swung back in? Plus surely this show is desperate to claw at any child actors it can get to actually appear, lol.

I mean we've seen a fair bit of a people he works with besides the girls this season? Idk if we'll see a huge amount about the rest of his operation, but maybe if it's plot relevant, like he's bringing Beth into more of it? That'd be cool!

I would LOVE to see more rhea and I'm really hopeful about that, it would be so cool!! If the show won't write me into it so I can yell at Beth and rio, the least they could give me is rhea doing it!!!

And... I guess this wasn't exactly the q but anyway... Would I like more rio screentime? Kinda, but tbh that's for manny, rather than me thinking the show particularly demands it.

I think if you're watching the show wanting it to be any of the following:

The rio show

A romance

A comedy

You're going to be disappointed! (I think I'm particularly guilty of the last one tbh)

What pisses me off is not the screen time, and it's not the lack of rio pov scenes (although I think one or two more could be helpful, or mick ones!), it's the feeling I get that rio (and this season, rhea) are chess pieces placed on the board to move the girls' actions somewhere. It's like... I can see the bones of the story, and I should NOT be able to. Instead of getting to thoroughly enjoy rhea as a character, I can see that her purpose was in large part to provide beth with a pregnancy out, and then she was gone!

I don't know that I particularly need to see more of what's going on with rio, I just want to feel like he's written in an internally consistent way/the writers have a firm idea of what's going on with him when he's not on screen (i feel like s2 was waaaaay egregious with this re rio, and maybe they addressed that better in s3?)

#Nbc good girls #TV #Sorry that got a bit rambly! #I'm not thaaaaat fussed abt more Marcus tbh #As all small children are pretty boring to me #But the beth rhea rio stitch n bitch group while the kids play I could be v into #Predictions #Kinda

[roswelldetails]

RNM 2x07 - Como La Flor

Apologies for being so late this week!! Lots of translating to do, and research. Mucho gracias to @queenrikki for reviewing this one for me!

EPISODE SUMMARY:

OLD WOUNDS — Liz (Jeanine Mason) is forced to revisit a painful part of her past when her mother Helena (guest star Bertila Damas) shows up at the diner unexpectedly. Michael (Michael Vlamis) urges Maria (Heather Hemmens) to seek help after she experiences a strange vision, and Kyle’s (Michael Trevino) attempt to get Steph (guest star Justina Adorno) to open up doesn’t go as planned. Finally, Helena’s arrival in Roswell sends Rosa spiraling. Nathan Dean and Lily Cowles also star. Barbara Brown directed the episode written by Danny Tolli & Carolina Rivera (#207). Original airdate 4/27/2020. 

DETAILS:

Max and Isobel both describing to Rosa how it feels to use (and control) your powers.

Isobel:

"Ground your intention.  Feel the current running through your body, your hands guiding it with purpose."

Max:

"Okay, draw energy from your spine…"

Arturo on Rosa:

"I heard a little mouse crying in her room this morning."

Escamoles - like Liz says in the episode, they're ant larvae. One article I found called them "the Caviar of the Mexican desert". 

Helena calls Liz "mi corazón", which means "my heart".

"Arturito, te ves bien."

Arturo, you look good.

Adding "ito" to someone's name in Spanish can both be positive or negative.  It can refer to smallness or also tenderness (like an affectionate pet name).

@tasyfa pointed out that there was a little timeline error in this scene.  Arturo says that he hasn't seen Helena in 7 years, since Jim Valenti's funeral, but last season it was established in 1x12 that Valenti died in 2014.  Also, remember the show is a year behind reality right now, so it's still 2019. So off by 2 years.

The reason for Helena's visit - transferring her ownership of the Crashdown for Liz so that Liz can sponsor Arturo's residency for citizenship. I did a lot of research trying to understand and clarify why this is.  Thanks to those who weighed in when I was struggling to find a clear answer. Eventually I reached out to Define American, the non-profit org that provides support to the show on racial and immigration related issues.  Here's the response:

The short version is that Liz has to meet minimum income requirements in order to sponsor Arturo, because she has to be able to certify that she can financially support him.  Since she's currently unemployed except for the Crashdown, transferring half of the ownership to her makes her a business partner and helps her to meet the income requirements. 

The Spanish:

"¿Cuánto quieres, Mamá?" 

How much do you want, Mama?

"She has a very thoughtful manicure."

If you don't understand, it's cool. I'm not going to explain here.  Feel free to DM me though! I won't judge, promise!!

Narrative thread about Max's nightmare/memory continues from 2x03 and 2x06.  Don't forget that 2x03 was just Isobel remembering it. Max was a hallucination. So when he brings it up here, it might be something they haven't discussed in a very long time.

The Spanish from Rosa on her red jacket:

"Eres una mujercita."

Basically translates to you're a little woman or young woman.  I assume the "cita" is supposed to be diminutive here.

"Mom is an opportunist.  If she found out she had a kid who came back from the dead she would use you to get to Anderson Cooper. And then she'd use him to promote her latest lounge singer gig."

"Isobel pays double.  Becky tax." 

A Becky, according to common colloquial use, is an annoying white woman, usually entitled and privileged.

Lead bartender quit..meaning there's a job opening at the Pony…hmm. Wonder if any of our characters need a job... 🤔

Maria's vision:

Michael drops the change

Flash to Kyle dropping his keys & bending down to pick them up.

Kyle staring into a bright light.

Maria shouting his name.

"My heart was broken.  Liz ended things and a part of me died."

Max's story to Valenti… not all THAT far off from the truth.

Note: has anyone told him about Valenti investigating him? We know Liz and Isobel were questioned.  Michael was present when Liz was questioned. Kyle knows the whole theory his mom was pursuing. And he just wanders in there like nothing happened?

"Try leading several short staffed investigations with the mayor breathing down your neck."

Another subtle reference to the mayor, including the election banners hung around town in S2 and his "anti-immigrant agenda" which was referenced in S1.

Max has been with the department since he was 18 - this is the first time we learned that.  In 2x05 we learned he was there at 21. So that timeline has now been further clarified. Which also means he was hired during Jim Valenti's time as Sheriff.

"I need eyes on you at all times now."

Definitely implies a lack of trust, or possibly still wanting to keep an eye on him for the purpose of her investigation (not a fact, just a theory).

Steph tells Kyle that she's always hanging around the hospital because she's doing admin work for her dad.

"I'm starting to feel like you're a ghost who only I can see."

"Ask them if they can see me. Or if you were just talking to a ghost." 

Note that ghosts have been a running theme this season with Rosa returning from the dead. This seems to be in line with that. Or are they subtly tying Steph to Rosa (I'm grasping at straws here, probably).

Liz leaves the safe on 3...but before she changes it is on 81. Helena leaves it on 78 after stealing the ring. Good continuity, RNM!

The whole "my mom hates cops" theme is a little confusing to me.  I mean, it makes sense given what we know about Helena. Except that she had an affair with Jim Valenti, who was… a cop. And also an addict.  Maybe it was different because they rehabbed together (just an assumption, not a fact). Or maybe the Jim experience contributed to her dislike of cops.

Liz...might be grasping at straws when she refers to police work as "something you love" to Max.  He didn't exactly seem enamoured by the job when we first met him in Season 1.

First time we learn Max and Isobel's father's name. And it is… Dave. 🤔

The Spanish Helena uses when she meets Max:

"Pero que guapo estas."

But how handsome you are.

"Cuidado Arturito."

Careful, Arturo…

Helena found Liz and Diego's wedding registry online. 

“Look there are medical reasons for non-drug-induced hallucinations - epilepsy, schizophrenia…”

“My mom has a degenerative brain disease. My grandma did too. I've always known I'd be next.”

Helena wanted to be Selena.

Which fits with Liz's lounge singer comment earlier.

And the "drunkenly singing in the car with your daughters in the backseat" fits with the story Liz and Rosa discussed in 2x02 about the car accident they got into as kids with Helena driving drunk.

Helena shows Liz her ten years sober chip, suggesting that she's been sober since Rosa died, but Rosa finds pills in Helena's car later in the episode.  Oxycodone. The same drug that Rosa used to steal from her mom as a kid (which we learned about in 2x04) and the same drug that she and Kyle discussed when he was checking her health in 2x01.

During Helena's toast to Rosa:

Preciosa = precious

Rosa Linda… still not sure personally if this is a continuity error or a pet name.  I’m inclined to go with a pet name. Throughout the whole episode Helena uses lots of pet names, nicknames, diminutives to address people. Rosa Linda may be just another version of this since Rosa's middle name was pretty well established as Helena in Season 1 between her grave, memorial pamphlet, etc.

Kyle calls attention to Steph's bandage on her arm.  She says she gave blood, but it feels like she's evading.

Also she calls him McDreamy, which is a Grey's Anatomy reference. Kyle called himself McSexy (another Grey's nickname) in 1x08 as well.

Note: I've seen some people talk about the speech about his sick friend as being about Maria, but I think he's really talking about Steph.  Or both, vaguely. He's certainly trying to get Steph to open up to him. Here's what he says:

"I just found out a friend of mine is sick. And I can't do anything to help her. And I hate feeling helpless."

Only after Steph puts her walls back up, does he gesture to Mimi's files.

The Spanish:

"Oh, ándale, gùero."

Ándale is like, go! Or let's go! Gùero we discussed earlier...basically white boy.

Por favor - please 

Rosa's art that we first saw in 2x05 now looks finished:

Isobel's graffiti "In Pod We Trust"

Both Isobel and Rosa's graffiti:

Isobel's assessment of Rosa's art

"That's a black hole. An unstoppable force of destruction. And it's getting closer. I see a girl looking into her own doom. She thinks it's inevitable, that she can't stop it, but she can. See, she created it. That means she can destroy it."

Rosa on Isobel's efforts to help her:

"You and Max, you keep talking about harnessing emotion and grounding myself, right? But I can't do that.  It is in my DNA to be screwed up. Literally. My mom's mentally ill. So, so am I. I was broken long before Noah did what he did. That's why he chose me to prey on.  That's probably why he chose you too."

Maria on her grandmother:

"When I was a child my Grandma Patty was the only adult who understood my make-believe world. Thing is, I was six.  So my favorite things about her were just illness, I guess…"

Maria on her mom:

"She was always kind of out there.  By the time I realized it was more than that, I just became obsessed with money. Wanted to be able to take care of her. I invested everything Grandma Patty left me, and I worked, scrounged.  It was about three days after my mom was finally fired from her job at the Pony, I bought the place."

Maria's blood does not contain the alien protein that Kyle found in the Pod Squad and Rosa after being in the Pod for a decade. (and yes, he actually said Pod Squad, which feels like an OG fandom victory)

"Look, there is one thing I noticed in your grandmother's file. Her insurance company is the same one that paid for my dad's cancer treatments...My dad got cancer because of an alien incident at Caulfield Prison. A fake insurance company established by Project Shepherd covered his bills."

"Okay so my grandmother got sick at the same alien prison where your mother died?"

More Spanish (there's lots of it this week).

Helena, when she gestures to the present:

"Abre tu regalo."

Open your gift.

Quinces is just slang for Quinceanera.

Just in case you're not familiar with quinceaneras (Liz's was also referenced in 1x02).

"Mija, me enseñas tus prom photos?"

Daughter, show me your prom photos.

Regarding the power outage.  Liz thought it was Max. Max thought it was Rosa. But the wire is frayed, like it was cut or chewed through. So it wasn't alien power related.  When Arturo finds the wire though, he says, "Must have been a little mouse." Which is how he referred to Rosa earlier in the episode. So the question is, does he actually think it was a mouse? Or does he think Rosa cut the wire? And if Rosa did cut the wire, then why? To distract them while she goes after her mom's car?

In the big Liz/Helena argument, Helena calls Max “a güerito cop”.  Güero means white person, similar to the more commonly used gringo.  But by adding the “ito” onto the end (like discussed before), Helena is basically diminuitizing Max.  She’s using the “smallness” above to basically imply that he’s some white nobody.

“I may not be the PTA mom who made cookies for bake sales or hosted sleepovers, but I sacrificed everything to come to this country to give you a better life.”

This is...not actually true.  Liz and Rosa are both natural born U.S. citizens, born in Roswell.  So she didn’t “come to this country” for that reason. She was already here when Liz and Rosa came into the picture.  And it’s not like she came pregnant with Rosa or anything, since Rosa is Jim Valenti’s daughter.

The ring that Helena took was ARTURO'S mother's ring.  It wasn't even Helena's family's heirloom.   

Liz and Arturo sharing flan for dessert.  At the start of the episode before Helena arrived they discussed making flan for Rosa.

Arturo admits that he always knew the truth about Rosa's heritage. (*fistpump* that's one of my headcanons coming true). 

"Rosa es mi hija, siempre y para toda la vida."

Rosa is my daughter, always and for life.

"Maybe you're right. I am playing the hero. Just like you're playing the politician's perfect arm candy.  See, I did a little digging. And your boyfriend, Dirk-- he ran for city council. It's very impressive. But there's no mention of your daughters. I'm guessing Dirk doesn't even know about Liz or Rosa.  Does he know anything about you, Helena? 'Cause it would be such a shame if he found out about a little town called Roswell."

Helena gives Max the ring, but keeps the box… maybe that's what Helena really wanted?

Huevos = eggs.  Basically, slang for balls.

"I know that face.  You uncovered a massive conspiracy."

"I checked the Caulfield drives. No sign of a Patricia DeLuca, but there was a Patricia Harris. Her maiden name. She signed up to participate in an experimental trial. Government was interested in weaponizing alien abilities. They wanted to create super soldiers. Your grandma was one of the first human subjects."

"Kind of wish I was an alien instead."

"What happened to the experiment?"

"It was a total failure. Caulfield shut it down in the '70s after people started dying. I don't understand how your grandmother got involved."

"I do. Henrietta Lacks, Tuskegee, Holmesburg.  The DeLucas aren't the first black people to be secretly experimented on."

Highly encourage you to read these if you're unfamiliar with any of these references.  It's African-American history (and really a black mark on U.S. history) that's rarely taught in schools.

Henrietta Lacks:

Tuskegee:

Holmesburg:

Reality versus Maria's flashes… great gifset by @rosaortecho on this here:

Kyle rips his jacket, staggers out to the parking lot, drops his keys, and is almost hit by a car, but Michael throws him out of the way with his powers (and Kyle still ends up injured because he lands on a glass bottle).

"Now that we know your illness is related to Caulfield we can find a cure for it."

"Maybe it's not an illness. I saw the future today, Guerin. When I first found out Grandma Patty was experimented on, I was furious.  But what if my genetic inheritance isn't just injustice? It's also actual superpowers. Saved a life today. And not just any life-- Kyle Valenti's. Tomorrow he's gonna turn around and save five more lives."

Liz and Rosa's dueling big sister act is super fascinating.  Rosa admits that she wasn't going to burn the car, and then she saw Liz crying, felt helpless, and that's when her powers went all wacky and caused it to explode.

Meanwhile, Liz has spent the whole episode trying to keep Rosa safe from Helena, and is trying to comfort her here by talking about Helena's sobriety.

But--Rosa stole Helena's pills, so she knows Helena is not sober, and she doesn't tell Liz that.  Why? To protect her.

At some point these two should probably stop keeping secrets to protect each other and start actually sharing what they know.

Kyle stitches himself up.

Steph quoted in this scene:

"I was up in the gallery contemplating American downfall thanks to progressive socialism."

"People tend to bail when things get real. I'm not into that."

Cameron's car was impounded a couple hours away.

Max is turning in his badge and gun and is turning down desk duty to search for Cam.

Isobel and Michael's discussion at the Pony:

"Do you think that Noah chose me because I was already broken?"

"I think you are the only one of us who ever keeps it together."

"I'm serious, Michael. The night that drifter attacked me, why am I the only one who started blacking out? I mean, Max literally murdered a man, but I'm the one who breaks?"

"You were traumatized. We were kids. At that age, trauma gets etched on to your soul."

"But what if it's not in my soul? What if it's in my DNA? Look, my whole life, I've played Stepford wife, because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. But...I need to understand myself now. I need to know where I'm from.  And if I don't know who my biological parents are, how am I ever gonna know who I really am?" 

"What are you saying, Iz?"

"I know that we said we shouldn't look into the past, but…"

"It keeps pulling you back. Me too. I spent my whole life thinking I'd build a ship and blast off into the ether. And then the minute I decide to leave that all behind and focus on this good thing in front of me, I'm sucked back in. Maria's family was experimented on at Caulfield. I need to find out more so I can find a cure for her illness."

Rosa takes one of her mom's pills. 😭

MUSIC:

1. Cactus Groove "This World"

2. Shelly Fairchild "Drive"

3. Mathis Hunter "Mrs. Vinegar"

4. Big Stone City "Good For Zero"

5. Big Stone City "Way Down Below"

6. Selena "Bidi Bidi Bom Bom"

7. Elizabeth Moen "Best I Can Do"

8. Wagons "Keep Coming Back"

9. AG "Where Is My Mind" (Pixies Cover)

#roswell new mexico #details #rnm season 2 #episode details #long post #rnm 207 #como la flor