#if anne boleyn had been henry's last queen

[fideidefenswhore]

what are your thoughts on jane seymour?

well...to tie into another unanswered anon in my inbox, i think there is something fairly nauseating about a woman 'poor you'-ing a man that just judicially murdered his wife, brother-in-law, friends, a court musician. etc, not to mention, you know. marrying him ten days after that fact ('do you THINK she CHOSE the date', no, but, i do think she accepted it, which doesn't suggest much in the way of integrity)

i think that emotional reaction is often regarded as unfair, yk, why do people not have the same animus for henry's wives after jane, for example? they also married someone that renounced, exiled, repudiated, and forbade his first wife from seeing their daughter (whom he bastardized, for good measure) for the remaining five years of her life, arrested, tried, executed his second wife, whose daughter he also bastardized...

and, while that is technically true, none of these women had served as anne's lady-in-waiting (or, for that matter, catherine's also). jane would have at least known, probably beyond a reasonable doubt, in that intimate position, that anne was, at the very least, not guilty of adultery. the last three were told a story, by people of authority and credibility beyond just henry. i am sure jane was also told a story, but the difference is that she probably knew it wasn't true, or at least...not entirely true.

anne served as catherine's, and anne, to some degree, probably believed a story that she could not have really known was true or untrue (that of her marriage to arthur), because she wasn't there. she also probably (conveniently, if you want to be ungenerous) believed what henry believed, on that subject (and we can say the same for jane, at least in relation to the validity, or lack thereof, of anne and henry's marriage...it's more something you get from reading between the lines, but she might have mentioned the rumored percy precontract as far as the 'none consider it lawful' tack, see: 5). anne at the very least, accepted with equanimity, the derogation of her predecessor and stepdaughter, or, according to some reports, pursued them with vigor. add to the mix the arrest, imprisonment, and execution of the former within a week of her betrothal to henry, along with a close family member of the former (seeing as catherine didn't really have any at court besides mary, i guess it would have to be her); and maybe that hypothetical scenario can shed some light on why some have more animus for jane seymour than anne boleyn (being a 'bystander' does not equate with being an 'innocent bystander’, nor does having an unloving husband endow someone with sainthood...depending on the circumstances, inaction can also be damning).

alright, well, that’s off my chest. here’s some more q&a’s that give my opinions on the subject, as i just ran out of spoons: 

emotively/ circumstantially 

relationship with eldest stepdaughter and (2)

seymour/’aragonese’ faction

relationship with henry and (2)

#anon #you know the funniest thing i find about counterfactuals in regards to all this? #is that especially in regards to mary... people act like 'well i guess we'll NEVER KNOW' when #literally because of anne's downfall #we have an answer #if anne boleyn had been henry's last queen #THEN we could more credibly speculate #how much of mary's treatment was down to her. how much of it was her influence #but we literally have a timeline on which anne was permanently removed as a factor #and it is ...this one #and the same thing was demanded . it might have been both of them but anne was not encouraging henry from the grave. be fr #jane got to learn that too btw #rude awakening to say the least

[thepastisalreadywritten]

By Leslie Patrick

1 August 2023

Anne Boleyn (c. 1501 or 1507 – 19 May 1536), King Henry VIII's second queen, is often portrayed as a seductress and ultimately the woman responsible for changing the face of religion in England.

In reality, she was a fiercely intelligent and pious woman dedicated to education and religious reform.

But after her arrest and execution on false charges of adultery and incest in May 1536, Henry VIII was determined to forget her memory.

Her royal emblems were removed from palace walls, her sparkling jewels tucked away in dark coffers, and her precious books disappeared from the pages of time.

One of Boleyn’s books that has reappeared is the Book of Hours, a stunning prayer book, printed around 1527 with devotional texts designed to be read throughout the day, features hand-painted woodcuts — as well as a rare example of the queen’s own writing.

In the margins of one of the beautifully decorated pages, she penned a rhyming couplet followed by her signature:

“Remember me when you do pray, that hope doth lead from day to day, Anne Boleyn.”

The book vanished with Boleyn’s execution in 1536, then resurfaced around 1903 when it was acquired by the American millionaire William Waldorf Astor (31 March 1848 – 18 October 1919) after he purchased Hever Castle, Anne Boleyn’s childhood home in the English countryside.

The hiding place of the disgraced queen’s devotional tome had been a mystery for centuries, until recent research by a university student uncovered hidden signatures that helped trace its path through history.

The discovery

The book’s whereabouts in the 367 years between Boleyn’s death and its reemergence remained puzzling until 2020 when Kate McCaffrey, then a graduate student at the University of Kent working on her master’s thesis about Anne Boleyn’s Book of Hours, found something unexpected in the margins of the book.

“I noticed what appeared to be smudges to the naked eye,” recalls McCaffrey, assistant curator at Hever Castle since 2021.

Intrigued, she borrowed an industrial-strength ultraviolet light and set it up in the darkest room of Hever Castle.

Ultraviolet light is often used to examine historical documents because ink absorbs the ultraviolet wavelength, causing it to appear darker against the page when exposed.

“The words just came through. It was incredible to see them underneath the light, they were completely illuminated,” the curator recalls.

McCaffrey’s theory is that the words were erased during the late Victorian era when it was popular to cleanse marginalia from books or manuscripts.

But thanks to her extraordinary detective work, these erased words turned out to be the key that unlocked the tale of the book’s secret journey from certain destruction at the royal court to safety in the hands of a dedicated group of Boleyn’s supporters.

The guardians

Indeed, various pages throughout the text reveal the names and notations of a string of Kentish women — Elizabeth Hill, Elizabeth Shirley, Mary Cheke, Philippa Gage, and Mary West — who banded together to safeguard Anne's precious book and keep her memory alive.

While it’s unclear how the book was initially passed to these women, Anne Boleyn expert Natalie Grueninger suggests it was gifted by Anne to a woman named Elizabeth Hill.

Elizabeth grew up near Hever Castle, and her husband, Richard Hill, was sergeant of the King’s Cellar at Henry VIII’s court.

There are records of the Hill’s playing cards with the king, and there may have been a friendship between Elizabeth and the queen that prompted Boleyn to pass her prayer book on before her execution.

“This extended Kentish family kept the book safe following Anne’s demise, which was an incredibly brave and bold act considering it could have been considered treasonous,” says Grueninger, podcaster and author of the book The Final Year of Anne Boleyn.

Anne’s Book of Hours was passed between mothers, daughters, sisters, and nieces until the late sixteenth century, when the last name makes its appearance in its margins.

“This story is an example of the women in the family prioritizing loyalty, friendship, fidelity, and a personal connection to Anne,” says McCaffrey.

“The fact that the women have kept it safe is a really beautiful story of solidarity, community, and bravery.”

The book, currently on display at Hever Castle, is a touchstone of the enigma that was Anne Boleyn.

Castle historian and assistant curator Owen Emmerson points out that the book contains Anne’s DNA on the pages from where she touched and kissed it during her daily devotions.

“This was a really beloved possession of hers,” says Emmerson.

“Because of what happened to Anne Boleyn, we don’t have a vast amount of information in Anne’s own words. But the physical remnants of her use of the book, and the construction of that beautiful little couplet, have her identity in them.”

While Anne’s Book of Hours has finally found its way home, the research into this intriguing historical mystery is not yet over.

McCaffrey continues to chart the book’s provenance through the centuries to find out where it was hiding all this time.

The discovery of the inscriptions illuminates the book’s furtive journey, providing us with a glimpse into the controversy, loyalty, and fascination that Anne Boleyn has engendered for the past 500 years.

#Anne Boleyn #King Henry VIII #Book of Hours #William Waldorf Astor #Hever Castle #Kate McCaffrey #University of Kent #ultraviolet light #Natalie Grueninger #Owen Emmerson #Elizabeth Hill #Elizabeth Shirley #Mary Cheke #Philippa Gage #Mary West #The Tudors #House of Tudor #British Royal Family

[adderstones]

Last two of Henry VIII's wives, two more K/Catherines! I'm all finished with this project!

Katherine Howard was Henry's fifth and youngest wife, and second to die by execcution at her husband's hand. She was cousin to Anne Boleyn, and like her, rose to the king's favor as a lady in waiting to Anne of Cleves. Her age at the time of their marriage being speculated to be between 15 to 21-- her husband was 49. The crimes levied against her at her arrest were primarily to do with two alleged affairs that the king was not aware of at the time of the union. History has not been kind to this young woman. Thankfully there has been recent retreadings of her story, and more scruitiny has been called upon to the older men who claimed to have loved her. She reportedly loved to dance, which is why I painted her mid-step. I also wanted to show off some Tudor era garments, so the lift of her dress is greatly exagerrated.

Katherine Parr was Henry's final wife. At the time of their marriage she had already been widowed twice, and was in service to Mary as a lady in waiting. Katherine was a staunch Protestant, perhaps even more so than Anne Boleyn, as she fervently supported the Reformation, and even spoke to Henry about finishing this work (at this point Henry himself lived as a quasi-Catholic, and was comfortable in the state of limbo he left his realm in by not defining Anglicanism further), which famously almost cost her her head. Katherine is actually quite notable for being the first named female author published in England, and she has three works credited to her. After Henry passed, Katherine made a swift marriage to her one-time lover, Thomas Seymour, which caused a great deal of scandal and pain to her step-children. She died after giving birth to a daughter only about a year after Henry. The dress she is wearing is based on a Tudor portrait by an unknown artist. It seems to be depicting the queen in a more relaxed attire than formal court attire, but, I have to say, I wish I had chosen a different outfit. Since making this design there has been a brilliant discovery of another portrait of Katherine, and if I ever will return to Katherine, I'd like to base her on that one. The portrait I referenced in this picture is dated to the late sixteenth century, but Katherine died in 1548, so I can't help but wonder if the dress is innaccurate. Curiously, there is also speculation that she had originally been painted wearing a French Hood for the piece, which was painted over later-- but it's only a theory.

#art #henry viii #tudors #six wives of henry viii #katherine parr #katherine howard #artists on tumblr #illustration #watercolor #ink #renaissance history

[rosepompadour]

Her only visible sign of emotion was to glance over her shoulder several times. Was this an understandable moment of fear, perhaps that the headsman would strike before she was ready? Or was it more poignant? She had previously told Kingston that though she had been treated harshly at the time of her arrest, "I think the king does it to prove me." Did she hope against hope for a last-minute reprieve? Was she looking over her shoulder for a messenger? Henry had the power to spare her - if he chose to. But if Anne dreamed that her former lover would save her, she barely knew him. Anne was an extraordinarily modern woman, a supremely talented, captivating spirit comfortable in her own skin and confident in her own destiny. A voice determined to be heard in the cacophony of sound in Henry's court, she read her own books, framed her own opinions and was ready to defend them against all comers. She was the first queen of England to champion a reforming agenda certainly where religion was concerned. Her major character flaw was succumbing to the dizzying effects of power and hubris. De Carle was not far wrong when he depicted her as basically good and virtuous, until ambition turned her head. The Anne who had the examples of Louise of Savoy and Marguerite of Angouleme before her could never settle for the self-abnegation expected from a subservient, obedient wife. She had too much zest, too much audacity, too many unfulfilled ambitions of her own for that. - Hunting the Falcon: Henry VIII, Anne Boleyn, and the Marriage That Shook Europe

#she who has been the queen of england on earth will today become a queen in heaven #and so she's reigned for 488 years #long live my queen ❤️ #anne boleyn #historicwomendaily #anneboleynedit #historyedit #history #*

[catalinadearagonsblog]

Katherine of Aragon & Margaret Plantagenet

They had known each other since Katherine first came to England. Margaret’s late husband, Richard Pole, had been Prince Arthur’s Lord Chamberlain, and she had accompanied him to Wales during the brief five-month marriage of Katherine and her first husband. Royal by birth, Margaret Pole was one of the most important ladies of high rank in the kingdom and one of the last Plantagenets at the Tudor court.

There a bond seems to have been forged between the two women, despite the fact that Katherine spoke little English and was 12 years younger than Margaret. The Spanish princess soon learned that her father had demanded the execution of Margaret’s brother before she arrived in England, and she was horrified. Feelings of guilt over the Earl of Warwick’s unjust execution pushed Katherine to seek Margaret’s friendship. Many years later, Margaret’s son, Reginald Pole, recorded that Katherine was “very much bound to recompense and requite us [the Pole family] for the detriment we had received on her account (although she was not in the least to blame for it), and to show us every kindness, having found by experience that in all her sorrows and afflictions, from no family of the realm had she ever received greater consolation than from ours, although for her sake we had received so many injuries”

Arthur’s premature death at Ludlow parted them, but they continued to correspond until Henry VIII’s accession rescued Katherine from penurious widowhood and made her the queen consort she had always expected to be. Margaret had also known financial distress during this period (her husband died in 1504), but her loyalty and friendship were not forgotten. She came to court with her eldest son to attend Katherine’s coronation and was soon appointed one of the queen’s chief attendants. In 1512, possibly at his wife’s behest, Henry VIII granted Margaret’s petition for restoration of the earldom of Salisbury and she became a countess in her own right.

Katherine chose Margaret to be the governess of her daughter, Princess Mary. Margaret had formed a close bond with Katherine and treated her daughter with the same warmth. Katherine would gladly have seen a marriage between her daughter and her friend’s son Reginald. The Pole family fortunes crashed after Anne Boleyn became the second wife of Henry VIII. Not surprisingly, Margaret had sided with Katherine and Mary during the divorce struggle. Lady Salisbury was known for her devout Roman Catholic beliefs. When Princess Mary was declared a bastard in 1533, Margaret refused to give Mary's gold plate and jewels back to Henry VIII. When Mary's household was broken up at the end of the year, the sixty-year-old Margaret Pole asked to serve Mary at her own cost, but was not permitted. Five years after the death of Katherine of Aragon, Lady Salisbury was executed on the scaffold. Her death is one of the most tragic events in Henry VIII's reign.

Sources:

Linda Porter, Mary Tudor:The First Queen Sylvia Barbara Soberton, Great Ladies: The Forgotten Witnesses to the Lives of Tudor Queens

#catherine of aragon #katherine of aragon #catalina de aragon #margaret pole #margaret plantagenet #the spanish princess #charlotte hope #mary i of england #mary tudor #arthur tudor #henry viii #anne boleyn

[lizzy-tudor]

From Princess, to Queen, to Duchess

Mary Tudor (March, c. 1496; London, England - June, 1533; Suffolk, England) was an English princess, the third wife of King Louis XII of France and one of the two sisters of King Henry VIII. Mary was also the grandmother of Lady Jane Grey, who would become titular queen of England for nine days in 1553.

Mary’s father, King Henry VII, betrothed her to Archduke Charles —later Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V — in 1507. In 1514, however, political tribulations caused King Henry VIII to renounce such engagement and arrange a match between his beautiful, charming and yound sister and Louis XII, the sick and french monarch of 52. Since Mary was already in love with Charles Brandon, the first Duke of Suffolk, she made Henry promise that after Louis died she would be allowed to choose her next husband.

The marriage with the french king took place on Octouber of 1514, and Mary performed her role as wife and royal consort with kindness and dedication until he died on January of the following year. Before Henry or the new King of France, Francis I, could use her as a pawn in another political arrangement, Mary secretly wed Suffolk in Paris, probably in late February. Henry VIII was infuriated at the news, but eventually the pair regained the king’s favour, with Suffolk paying him a large sum of money and perhaps with the help and intercession of Cardinal Wolsey.Mary and Charles had four children, two daughters and two sons: ⇒ Henry Brandon (11 March 1516 – 1522); ⇒ Lady Frances Brandon (16 July 1517 – 20 November 1559), married to Henry Grey, 3rd Marquess of Dorset, and mother to Lady Jane Grey; ⇒ Lady Eleanor Brandon (1519 – 27 September 1547), married to Henry Clifford, 2nd Earl of Cumberland; ⇒ Henry Brandon, 1st Earl of Lincoln (c. 1523 – March 1534).

Mary had enjoyed unprecedented freedom during her teenage years at her brother's court. Just fourteen when her father, Henry VII died, she spent the next five years almost completely unchaperoned, encouraged to participate in every event, celebration and feast, each planned to display the opulence of the english royal family. She shared Henry's exuberance for spectacle and, for some time, was one of the central ladies of the court, admired and sociable. Like him, she loved dancing, masques, and parties; they were also very close, with the princess being the apple of the king's eye. It's rumored that Henry's famous warship, the Mary Rose, was named after both his favorite sister and his only daughter with Catherine of Aragon.

Upon her arrival in France, Mary was proclamed, by the Venetian Ambassador, to be "handsome and well favoured, grey-eyed; slight, rather than defective from corpulence, and conducts herself with so much grace, and has such good manners, that for her age of 18 years—and she does not look more—she is a paradise." She was particularly admired by her contemporaries for her long red hair, which she had inherited from the Plantagenet lineage through her mother, Elizabeth of York, who had also been an celebrated beauty.

After her second marriage, the Duchess of Suffolk lived a quiet life in the country, retired from court, although she had been know to have attended the famous Field of the Cloth of Gold at Guines, near Calais, in 1520. Often referred to as the French Queen, she was known to dislike Anne Boleyn and in defiance of her brother was to prove a firm supporter of her sister-in-law, Catherine of Aragon, in the matter of Henry VIII's annulment of his marriage to his first wife.

Mary visited London for the last time to celebrate the wedding of her eldest daughter, Lady Frances Brandon, to Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset, in 1533. After suffering failing health for some years, Mary Tudor died on 25 June 1533 at the age of thirty-eight at Westhorpe Hall, Westhorpe, Suffolk, possibly of cancer. Henry VIII had requiem masses sung at Westminster Abbey for the repose of her soul and she was given a magnificent funeral, which her husband did not attend. Her body was interred at the Abbey of Bury St Edmunds. The Duke of Suffolk quickly remarried again, in that same year, to his fourteen-year-old ward, Katherine Willoughby (1519–1580), suo jure Baroness Willoughby de Eresby. Katherine had been betrothed to his eldest surviving son, Henry, Earl of Lincoln, but the boy was too young to marry, and Charles, to eager to add the heiress fourtune to his own.

#tudor dynasty #tudor queens #tudor history #tudor era #tudorqueens #the tudors #mary tudor #henry viii #elizabeth of york #charles brandon #tudor england #tudor period #tudor women #english royalty #house of tudor #medieval england #english history

[mourningcrypt]

Medical Monday: What was Catherine of Aragon’s real cause of death?

Catherine of Aragon, first wife of King Henry VIII- passed away at age 50 on January 7, 1536  while in exile following the divorce in 1533 at Kimbolton Castle. When news arrived to the court of the former queen’s passing- rumors spread she died due to poisoning- which was done in some way by Henry. How he acted after the news would almost prove he was guilty. He and his second wife, Anne Boleyn wore yellow- which its debated if it was a sign of mourning as it was believed yellow was the color of mourning in Spain, or if it was a sign of celebration. Henry would even cry “God be praised that we are free from all suspicion of war!” Now he and his new queen could be together in peace it seems. (Though we all know how long that lasted)

Eustace Chapyus- imperial ambassador would write in a letter to Charles V on January 9th- noticing that Catherine fell ill after consuming a welsh beer stated “[Her] illness began about five weeks ago… It was a pain in the stomach, so violent that she could retain no food.” After consulting her Physician, Miguel de la Sola- they both would draw the poisoning conclusion, writing “He said he was afraid it was so, for after she had drunk some Welsh beer she had been worse, and that it must have been a slow and subtle poison for he could not discover evidences of simple and pure poison; but on opening her, indications will be seen.”

But, actually- poison was not what caused the death of Catherine. Despite Henry’s harsh choice to celebrate his exes death, the more plausible cause of her death by historians was more believed to be cancer, specifically cancer of the heart or a melanotic sarcoma. A melanotic sarcoma is a malignant kind of tumor often affecting the pigmentation of cells. Which often makes the color of it very dark or even black.

Prior to burial, her body would be prepared by a servant (chandler) of the household, not a physician. Chapuys would chronicle the procedure to Charles in a January 21st letter by saying her internal organs were healthy, “except the heart, which was quite black and hideous”. As well as including “some black round thing which clung closely to the outside of the heart”, which is believed to be a secondary  melanotic sarcoma. The chandler even going as far as to cut the heart in half and attempting to wash off the black from the heart, but to no avail. Though, at the time- Cancer was not an understood cause, which is why the quick belief of poison was more accepted.

During her last days, it was reported she was very weak, had stomach pains and was unable to keep food down. When researching sarcoma symptoms; weight loss, abdominal pain, and fatigue would be found as main contributors.

Unfortunately given the centuries between Catherine’s passing and medical advances we are unable to concretely diagnose what she went dealt with in her final moments on this earth, but with the letters from Chapuys its gives us a glimpse of understanding as to what more likely happened to the once Queen of England.

Sources for research: The death of Catherine of Aragon, Catherine of Aragon’s Black Heart and Poison: The Primary Sources, Medical History: Black Hearted

#medical monday #mourningcrypt #catherine of aragon #tudor history #the tudors #tudor era #henry viii #tudors

[sophiebernadotte]

The Waiting Game: The Untold Story of the Women Who Served the Tudor Queens by Nicola Clark (Apr. 25, 2024)

Every Tudor Queen had ladies-in-waiting. They were her confidantes and her chaperones. Only the Queen's ladies had the right to enter her most private chambers, spending hours helping her to get dressed and undressed, caring for her clothes and jewels, listening to her secrets. But they also held a unique power. A quiet word behind the scenes, an appropriately timed gift, a well-negotiated marriage alliance were all forms of political agency wielded expertly by women.

The Waiting Game explores the daily lives of ladies-in-waiting, revealing the secrets of recruitment, costume, what they ate, where (and with whom) they slept. We meet María de Salinas, who travelled to England with Catherine of Aragon when just a teenager and spied for her during the divorce from Henry VIII. Anne Boleyn's lady-in-waiting Jane Parker was instrumental in the execution of not one, but two queens. And maid-of-honour Anne Basset kept her place through the last four consorts, negotiating the conflicting loyalties of her birth family, her mistress the Queen, and even the desires of the King himself. As Henry changed wives, and changed the very fabric of the country's structure besides, these women had to make choices about loyalty that simply didn't exist before. The Waiting Game is the first time their vital story has been told.

#british royal family #the tudors #tudor history #literature #new books #book release #affiliate links

[duchessofferia]

Which is the earliest time Jame Seymour should have been introduced in "The Tudors"? Since Jame had scored a place in Katherine of Aragon's court in 1529, she should have been introduced sometime during the last couple of episodes of s1, along with Edward and their father John.

After a recent rewatch, during the scene at the s1 finale where a nameless girl rebukes Anne Boleyn after her wishing that all Spaniards would be put under the sea speech, I thought that that part should have gone to Jane Seymour. That rebuke could have been one of Jane's first lines in the series.

You’re right, Jane should’ve been introduced earlier. The earliest Jane could’ve been at court was 1527, or more likely 1528, to my understanding. Katherine of Aragon made her speech at Blackfriars in 1529, and The Tudors leaned into the idea of Jane as connected to Katherine - the scene where Mary gives Jane Katherine's cross to help her through labor comes to mind. As for Anne, there were an assortment of... nameless, jittery blonde women swirling around her during the early seasons. The creators could've slotted Jane into one of their places. Maybe they meant to? I know there was some kerfuffle about her casting.

If the comparison scene between Jane & Anne before the latter's murder is anything to go off of, the creators wanted to set Jane up as ideologically opposed to Anne, to some extent. It would've been nice if Jane was given a more self-actualized role in that opposition, rather than being shown as this silly, flighty girl who stumbled into a position for which we're obviously supposed to judge her. I just know she and Katherine Howard are sharing tea cakes in hell.

Sir John's offscreen death in Season 3, and the casually callous way Edward communicated it to Jane, also would've landed much better if they'd introduced Jane earlier. Her and Edward's sibling dynamic is one of my favorites in the show, communicated subtly through shared looks, close ups and such. In Season 2, Jane follows Edward's lead, allowing him to influence her decision making something like a surrogate father. Jane is certainly the passive member of their relationship, but that wasn't used to cast her as stupid, or lesser than the other wives, which I appreciated. Edward asking Jane if she'd like to be Queen once he and his father start planning for it speaks to this dynamic that's sort of childish, in a sweet way - Edward leads and Jane follows, but willingly, not slavishly.

In Season 3, when Henry starts controlling Jane more overtly, Edward remains a man in her life who she's allowed to criticize and chastise, even as he's demonstrated to be brutally unscrupulous in his own right (see: that awful sexualized torture scene.) His wife Anne Stanhope is shown putting horns on him, but Edward barely notices, never mind getting mad at her for it. Compare that to how savagely Henry reacted to the vaguest whiff of infidelity in his Anne. The first one, that is.

It's almost like The Tudors' Henry is a decent public figure, but a monstrous domestic one, while The Tudors' Edward is a monstrous public figure, but a decent domestic one. And Jane is the woman who connects the two of them, binding their families into one, however temporarily. As Jane lays dying, Henry compares her to his late mother, and Jane is introduced to Henry by her own father, himself depicted as this jolly old fat country lord. Sir John's characterization in The Tudors was sparse, but maybe that's a blessing, considering the shaft Thomas Boleyn got.

Which leads me to another comparison. Thomas and George Boleyn's posthumous reputations both took a massive hit with this show. George is rendered not just abusive but sexually violent, the shadow of early 2000s homophobia hanging over The Tudors' portrayal like a pall. His father's depiction is more unfair than offensive, but that's not much of an improvement. This promo pic of him just makes you feel dirty, as Olga Hughes pointed out, lmao. We the audience can assume that Pádraic Delaney's George Boleyn got his cruelty from his father, while Anne (and Mary) are the family's more kindhearted diamonds-in-the-rough, a position that is reinforced by George's atypical protectiveness over Anne, which is ultimately used against him. Jane and Edward's relationship isn't as emotionally intimate as George and Anne's, but Edward and George's duel positions as men who are capable of being both negligent & violent and paternal & attentive sets them up as interesting examinations of the kind of man who takes root in an environment like this, much like Charles Brandon, Eustace Chapuys, Francis Bryan, etc.

The missing piece in the equation is Jane. Henry's fatherhood is well explored, Anne's sisterhood is the most overtly sympathetic part of her characterization, Mary I's conflict as a daughter is what drives her through the whole series. Jane is a sister, daughter, mother and wife, and there are a few shining moments where she really titillates: inquiring about her family's plans, selling the necklace Henry gave her, chiding Edward for mishandling her father's death, protecting Mary no matter the cost, things like that. But her most well-developed relationship is the one she has with Henry, and that one says more about him as a man than it does her as a woman.

How did Jane feel about Sir John that encouraged her to lean on Edward, even though he was easily identifiable as a worse man than his father? How did Jane feel transitioning from Katherine's household to Anne's, especially with regards to her catholicism? What did she think about the dissolution of the monasteries when it first started? Did she want to get married and have children, or did she just know she'd have to one day? What were her prospects before Henry? What does she like in a man anyways?

Unfortunately, we don't know, because The Tudors doesn't bother to tell us. Wish it had been different, to say the least.

#Wow this got away from me #Jane Seymour #Anne Boleyn #The Tudors #Henry VIII #edward seymour #thomas boleyn #George Boleyn #john seymour #asks #purplefictionlover #sa tw

[dreaminginthedeepsouth]

~ Anne Boleyn's Last Request, A Guest Post by Lissa Bryan ~ On April 26th, 1536, Anne Boleyn asked her chaplain, Matthew Parker, to meet with her. She had a special request to ask of him, something of utmost importance. Perhaps she had a premonition of some sort. We know little of what took place during this meeting, only what Parker himself wrote of it later. Anne Boleyn asked him to make a promise to her, and Parker spent the rest of his life trying to fulfill it. The records indicate the weather in spring of 1536 was lovely, but Anne could feel the dark clouds gathering around the throne. A storm was brewing, but the conspirators were careful to leave little trace of which direction they were heading. Anne Boleyn was a fighter, but she could not fight what she could not see. The courage and strength it took for her to behave as though everything was normal still amazes me. Anne went through the motions of being a Tudor queen with dignity and poise. The king, too, gave all outward appearance of normalcy. Though Henry was spending his nights in other palaces - where Jane Seymour was always lodged nearby - he appeared at Anne’s side for events, and they were able to present the image of a cordial relationship to the public. He dined in Anne’s apartments, went with her to mass, and still insisted foreign courts should recognize the legitimacy of his marriage. He even devised a bizarre ruse to force Eustace Chapuys into bowing to Anne, seizing the underhanded victory with apparent delight. But behind the scenes, Henry was devising a way to rid himself of the woman he had come to despise. As he stood smiling by her side, he was plotting her death. Anne had to have known Henry was trying to get rid of her. If we know about it - and we do, from the letters of Chapuys to the Imperial court - then Anne heard the gossip, too. She still had powerful supporters who kept her informed of what was going on. Anne had to have been terrified, sick with worry and anxiety. What was Henry planning? It looked like he was trying to find a way to annul their marriage. He was asking bishops about the validity of his union to Anne. It had gotten to the point where Princess Mary’s supporters were writing to her and telling her to be of good cheer, because Anne would be gone soon. On the 21st of April, Chapuys noted as an aside that Cromwell had told the French ambassador not to broach the topic of Princess Elizabeth’s marriage. Anne, who supported the French, must have been disturbed that there was no discussion of a marital alliance for the princess. Whatever was happening, it was affecting her beloved daughter, as well. On the 24th of April, a commission of Oyer and Terminer was created at Westminster. The court dealt with treason charges, and other serious crimes, and so Anne may have thought it was for someone who had denied the royal supremacy, assuming she knew about that it had convened. She had so many other things on her mind, she might not have given it a second thought. The commission was tasked with investigating and drawing up the indictment against Anne Boleyn for treason and adultery. The day after the commission was created, Henry wrote a letter referring to Anne as his “entirely beloved” wife. The wife he had already decided would have to die in order to ensure his marriage to Jane Seymour was unchallenged, and his heir with her was entirely legitimate. Even as Henry wrote those words, he knew Anne Boleyn would be dead before the letter arrived at its destination. Anne’s days were numbered, though she was unaware of it as yet. She knew something was coming, at any rate, and Anne Boleyn was a woman who tried to meet her problems head-on. On the 26th, she asked her chaplain, Matthew Parker, to meet with her. Though we don’t know the details of how the meeting was arranged, Anne would have wanted it to be private. She had a promise she wanted to extract from him, and she wouldn’t have wanted it to be overheard. It seems she was successful at keeping it quiet - no one else, including Chapuys, whose ears were always straining for the faintest sounds of gossip, reported on it. Perhaps she met with Parker under the guise of confession, the sanctity of which even Chapuys would have never dared violate. Anne asked Parker to promise her he would watch over her baby daughter, Elizabeth, if anything happened to her. She must have seen something in Parker that made her reach out to him - of all the people she could have contacted, including her own extended family, to safeguard Elizabeth and her future. Parker took the promise he made to Anne seriously, and considered himself bound to it for the rest of his life. Anne Boleyn was an amazing woman. She managed - somehow - to behave as though nothing were amiss. She performed her court duties, attended mass, even continuing to insist on proper decorum for her courtiers. Anne always managed to keep her composure in public; it was only behind the scenes that she broke down. We don’t have any records of her inner turmoil at this time. Only the letters of the courtiers and Anne’s privy purse expenses give us insight into what was happening. Anne spent the last weeks of her life ordering items for her daughter. Perhaps, psychologically, Anne was trying to “cover” her daughter as best she could with all of her clothing purchases for the child. Maybe she had the foresight to see Elizabeth would be plunged into reduced circumstances by whatever her father was planning and not be cared for according to her station. Anne was right - it was the last clothing Elizabeth would receive until her governess wrote a pleading letter begging for funds because Elizabeth had grown out of everything. Anne had done all she could to prepare Elizabeth for her uncertain future. She had filled Elizabeth’s household with loyal, supportive people, many of whom were extended family members. She had asked a powerful man in the religious reformist movement to protect Elizabeth, and she had dressed her baby warmly for the storm ahead. Anne walked these last days of April on tenterhooks, waiting to see what Henry had in store for her. She would not have long to wait.

[The History Geeks]

#history #women #Anne Boleyn #stories #The History Geeks #Elizabeth

[fideidefenswhore]

Had circumstances been just a little different, Anne Boleyn might still have lived. Had she produced a son, Jane would have been a passing distraction, Anne's enemies would have been silenced, and her fiery character might again have seemed, at least at times, beguiling to Henry. During the course of their brief marriage, which lasted just over three years, there had been many fluctuations. After the final miscarriage, Anne fought back, saying she had been frightened by Henry's accident, but also broken-hearted at his paying attention to another woman. This kind of criticism was not something Henry was prepared to tolerate in a wife; one of Katherine's strengths, as she herself acknowledged, was that she had never shown any sign of animosity or distress in response to the king's infidelities. Henry and Anne's relationship had been a genuine love-match, however, and the volatility which helped bring about the extraordinary events of the break with Rome remained a part of their relationship ever after.

Henry VIII, Lucy Wooding

#'never' is doing a lot of heavy lifting/ obfuscating here lol #(it's traditionally thought that she never had harsh words about bessie blount-- and indeed there's no record of this-- #although elizabeth blount's primary biographer has said that she had no court presence after the birth of henry fitzroy suggests a frosty #dynamic... just about the elevation of fitzroy #however there's the hastings drama) #also 'her enemies would have been silenced' is overly simplistic #unpopular queens having sons might have reduced overt hostility #but it didn't annihilate it. more realistically might have 'bridled' her enemies #and yet i still find this excerpt compelling so . here we are #lucy wooding #last part of sentence 2 tho...eminently plausible #prior to this storms always melted into sunshine . stormclouds gathered on the horizon and storms began again. then repeat. #and as reviled as the assertion 'genuine love-match' has been as of late. there is evidence which supports it . #would jane have been a passing distraction? again we don't know. their periods of 'royal mistress' (although there needs to be a better ter #maybe...object of king's affections?) are different in that there is only record of anne's in hindsight via cavendish etc #and also in their actions. in 1526 there was no royal watcher that believed the withdrawal of one of the queen's ladies was significant #in 1536 there was one who believed jane's meetings with henry were highly significant and they proved to be... #altho as wooding underlines here they proved to be mainly due to circumstance #it's not to say there weren't discussions behind closed doors of anne becoming queen among the boleyns circa 1526. but they were not known #and wouldn't have been guessed due to lack of precedent

[earlymodernbarbie]

What Taylor Swift song would you assign your favorite Tudor ladies?

Ooo yay! I love this question! Ngl I’ve been assigning Taylor songs to Tudor women since I was in middle school, so I’ve had a lot of time to think about this lol.

Catherine of Aragon: middle school me would say Last Kiss (“all that I know is I don’t know how to something you miss”), high school me would say All Too Well (“so casually cruel in the name of being honest”)and adult me would say happiness (“there will be happiness after me, but there was happiness because of me” or “after giving you the best I had, tell me what to give after that?”, my tears ricochet (“ I didn’t have it in myself to go with grace” and “I can go anywhere I want, any where I want, just not home”), hoax (“your faithless loves the only hoax I believe in, don’t want no other shade of blue but you, no other sadness in the world would do”) and tolerate it (“I gave you me temple, my mural, my sky, now I’m begging for footnotes in the story of your life”)

Anne Boleyn: high school me was adamant that Anne’s song was I Knew You Were Trouble. I still agree with that (“and the saddest fear comes creeping in, that you never loved me, or her, or anyone, or anything”????- Anne line for sure) I would also add my tears ricochet to the list (“you had to kill me, but it killed you just the same” crazy on point) I really like Haunted (“you and I walk a fragile line, I have known it all this time, but I never thought I’d live to see it break” also “it’s getting dark and it’s all too quiet and I can’t trust anything now and it’s coming over you likes it’s a all a big mistake”- literally describes the anxiety and fear Anne felt in the last few months of her life) for her as well.

Jane Seymour: Jane is hard because so much of her life in unknown, but I would say Eyes Open (“everybody’s waiting for you to break down, everybody’s watching to see the fall out, even when you’re sleeping, keep your eyes open”) the anxiety she must have felt being married to Henry VIII, especially after he threatened her must have been enormous. I couldn’t imagine it. She had to keep her vigilance up because she would not be safe until she had a son (which she did, but we all know what happens next) Also maybe The Archer? It’s another song about anxiety and the line “I wake in the night, I pace like a ghost, the room is on fire, invisible smoke and all of my heroes die all alone, help me hold on to you” makes me think of her worrying about having a son/ getting the plague/ not pleasing Henry etc.

Anne of Cleves: once again- really hard, not because of her life being unknown, but because her situation was abnormal. She conceded to an annulment, but she didn’t want one. She wanted to be Queen of England and was quite disappointed when Henry chose Catherine Parr over her. Maybe This Love? The other song I’m thinking of is called Long Time Coming and it’s unreleased (“and it was a long time coming, waited half my life just find someone like you, spent a long time finding out love hangs around after you walk out, not knowing it would be a long time going” and “I burned my bridges, had sleepless nights, washed my sins under neon lights and I’m still not over you”) I think The Archer might work for her as well (“help me hold on to you”- Anne wanting to be queen, but watching Henry pull away within weeks). Also not a Taylor song, but I used to doodle her with lyrics from Forget by Marina and the Diamonds. Specifically “I’ve been dancing with the devil, I love that he pretends to care.”

Kathryn Howard: Dear John. No competition. This song could work with any of the men in her life (“dear John, I see it all now that you’re gone, don’t you think I was too young to be messed with? The girl in the dress cried the whole way home”- brutal) She was a baby and Henry, Manox, Culpeper, and Dereham were all grown ass men. Also “all the girls that you’ve run dry, have tires lifeless eyes, cause you burned them out” hits hard thinking about Henry’s first four wives.

Katherine Parr: once again I’m going to bring up The Archer because it’s so perfect for everything. She was the last wife, but she had no way of knowing that. After everything with Stephen Gardiner, I’m sure she lived in fear of Henry turning on her. I would also say Cold As You in relation to how she felt after Henry died (“now that I’m sitting here thinking it through, I’ve never been anywhere cold as you” and “every smile you fake is so condescending counting all the scars you’ve made”) chills.

Mary I: Mad Woman is one that I think of immediately (“now I breathe flames each time I talk, my canons all firing at your yacht, they say move on, but you know I won’t”) it reminds me of how angry she was with her father and Anne Boleyn (Anne being the woman who likes hunting witches in Mary’s mind) Also thinking about “there’s nothing like a mad woman, what a shame she went mad, no one likes a mad woman, you made her like that” as something thought towards Henry when she became queen and the burnings began. Like a “you made me this” kind of thing. I also think Tied Together with a Smile is perfect for teenage/ adult Mary (“ hold on baby you’re losing it, the waters high, you’re jumping into it, letting go and no one knows, that you cry, but you don’t tell anyone, that you might not be the golden one, and you’re tied together with a smile, but you’re coming undone”)

Elizabeth I: I’m going to break down her life and assign different songs for different events because her life was very long and very eventful. So for teenage Elizabeth I could see Dear John as relating to the Seymour incident because she was a child (“all the girls that you’ve run dry have tired lifeless eyes, cause you burned them out, but I took your matches before fire could catch me so don’t look now, I’m shining like fireworks over your sad empty town” also “you are an expert at sorry and keeping lines blurry” and of course “I see it all now that you’re gone, don’t you think I was too young to be messed with? The girl in the dress cried the whole way home”) for life during Edward and Mary’s reigns I could see her with Eyes Open (“even when you’re sleeping-sleeping keep your eyes open”) People watching her to see if she’ll mess up so they could get rid of her. When she first becomes queen I can see Long Live “long live the walls we crashed through, how the kingdom lights shined just for me and you, and long long live that look on your face and bring on all the pretenders one day, we will be remembered”) Towards the end of her life I can see Mad Woman as well. Elizabeth was queen, but she was still a woman and like most women, she began to lose the respect of her court as she aged. Also Nothing New for Elizabeth’s fear of aging (“will you still want me when I’m nothing new?”) and then Long Live again after her death when the Gloriana mythos really began to ramp up. As for her relationship with Dudley I would say Ours is a good song (“and it’s not theirs to speculate if it wrong and your hands are tough, but they are where mine belong in, I’ll fight their doubt and give you faith”) the “them” in question is William Cecil because he did not like Robert and Elizabeth together lol.

Ok so that was a lot longer than I thought it would be. I have a habit of over explaining so I’m sorry for that, but the Tudors and Taylor Swift are my passions so I tend to go off the deep end lol.

#ask #catherine of aragon #mary i #anne boleyn #taylor swift #elizabeth i #the tudors #katherine of aragon #henry viii #catalina de aragon #jane seymour #queen jane seymour #anne of cleves #anna of cleves #anna von cleves #kathryn howard #katherine howard #catherine howard #katherine parr #kathryn parr #catherine parr #queen mary i of england #queen mary i #mary i of england #elizabeth the first #queen elizabeth i #queen elizabeth i of england #elizabeth i of england #tudor history #queen anne boleyn

[intriguingpeoplebyangelafloyd]

QUEEN JANE SEYMOUR

JANE SEYMOUR

c.1508-1537

THIRD WIFE OF HENRY VIII, MOTHER OF EDWARD VI       

            Seymour was maid-of-honour to Queen Catherine of Aragon as well as to Henry VIII’s second wife, Anne Boleyn.

            During his marriage to Boleyn, Henry VIII fell in love with Jane due to her gentle  and peaceful nature. Seymour’s brothers Edward and Thomas were both rising stars at court and encouraged the union. She had been ‘well tutored’ and the brothers warned Seymour not to give into Henry’s advances ‘unless he makes her his queen’. Seymour received great presents from the king and wore a locket of a picture Henry around her neck. Seymour opened and closed the locket whenever she was around Boleyn. Infuriated, Boleyn violently ripped it from her neck.

            Boleyn only gave birth to a surviving girl and Henry quickly grew tired of Boleyn during their marriage. Boleyn who was pregnant with a son miscarried when she caught Seymour sitting on Henry’s knees. Boleyn was executed in 1536 for treason, that same day Henry VIII got engaged to Seymour. Ten days later they were married at Whitehall Palace. Jane sat under the canopy of estate in the presence chamber, some were taken aback ‘within one and the same month that saw Queen Anne flourishing, accused, condemned and executed, another was assumed into her place, both of bed and honour’.

            Henry refused to crown her queen until she gave birth to a male heir. Seymour’s court was tame compared to Boleyn’s, Boleyn’s court was fun and entertaining,; however Seymour’s was strict, formal and conservative and she also banned the French fashion (which was in fashion when Boleyn was queen). Jane’s motto was ‘obey and serve’.

            Seymour was against Henry’s dissolution of the monasteries and got down on her knees and begged to save them. Henry VIII reply was brutal and reminded her what happened to his last wife. Jane never interfered in politics again.

            Seymour helped Henry to reconcile with his daughter Mary, and the two became good friends. When Seymour became pregnant she had constant cravings for quail which Henry ordered in for her. Seymour gave birth to a son, Edward (Edward VI) in 1537. He was christened a few days later, Seymour didn’t attend but Henry’s daughters, Mary and Elizabeth carried Edward’s train during the ceremony.

            Seymour died from postnatal complications two weeks later aged 28 (or 29). She was buried in St. George’s Chapel at Windsor Castle and Mary was the chief mourner. Seymour was the only wife of Henry’s to receive a queen’s funeral. After she died, Henry wore black for the next three months, but ‘framed his mind’ to marry again for the good of his realm. When Henry VIII died in 1547 he was buried next to her at his request.

            Seymour’s brothers continued to control and influence Edward VI, but both men lost their lives on the executioner’s block on Edward’s orders. Edward only ruled for six years before he died of illness. After Lady Jane Grey and Queen Mary I, it was Boleyn’s daughter Elizabeth I who became queen.

#janeseymour #queenjaneseymour #thetudors #henryVIII

#jane seymour #janeseymour #queen jane seymour #the tudors #henry viii

[rosepompadour]

I saw your tags on your Anne Boleyn post about your list of men from history who would have been good in bed, and I'm dying to hear the whole thing! ♡

Ohhhhh, goodness.

♡ Thomas Andrews. A genuinely decent dude, a total babe, a hero...and he went down like a gentleman. (Wink wink.)

♡ Philip Hamilton. Dare I say, even sexier than Dad? Also like his father in that he had the unfortunate tendency to duel...and l o s e.

♡ George Boleyn. First of all, popular history's portrayal of him as an abusive drunk really doesn't have a lot of basis in fact. (His wife has also been unfairly maligned, but that's a story for another day.) What we do know is that he was super smart, ridiculously good-looking, funny, passionate about reform, and an A+ brother. He even  defended himself at his own trial, and did it so well that the court started taking bets on whether or not he'd be acquitted. This smooth son of a bitch, I swear to GOD! He knew he was going down, so he went down swinging. Even if he was ugly as sin, he'd still be on this list for telling the entire court that Henry was a terrible lay. I can actually see the smirk on his face when they handed him that piece of paper.

♡ Babe Lincoln. So tall, so lanky. Him chopping wood in his shirt sleeves while (maaaaaybe) pining for Ann Rutledge? I know the historical record is a mess when it comes to Ann, but the rolled sleeves/pining makes for a very nice combination. Swoon town! (Also kept our nation together in its darkest hour, which is a pretty solid bonus.)

♡ . . .and, conversely, Lewis Powell, the dude who conspired to kill Lincoln. It would definitely only be a one-time hate fuck, but . . . I MEAN.

♡ Tom Mitford, the Branwell Bronte of the 20th century. That picture of him in the t-shirt smoking a PIPE? 10/10. Might have been a fascist, which is v. unfortunate and would ultimately land him with negative points, but accounts differ, and, as usual, I am going with Decca's POV on this one.

♡ Speaking of siblings: Erik Miller, brother of Queen Lee. I have approximately ten thousand books about Lee, and all the pictures of Erik are bookmarked. A happy bonus! ♡ Thomas Wyatt. Eventually ended up bald with a terrible beard and a broken heart, but a TOTAL HOTTIE when he was young. Thin and lanky? Golden hair? Eyes that twinkled like stars? (Not my quote, that is HISTORICAL FACT!) Funny? ROMANTIC?! LOVE POETRY??? Anne, girl...I hope you are having such a fun, sexy time in heaven.

♡ Peter Townsend, dashing hero of the Battle of Britain and Group Captain of my heart! 

♡ Rupert Brooke. Kiiind of seems like a terrible person, but he's my favorite poet and LORD what a face. It would be a very complicated relationship (me: Jewish, him: into dudes), but oh, what a time would be had!

I am going through this list and it has dawned on me that I have a Very Specific Type...très intéressant!

Also, I am super super attracted to WWII-era JFK, but the question is who I would consider a good lay, and tragically JFK did not make the cut. EVERYONE says Kennedy when the dinner table gets a lil sloshed and starts asking which president you'd smash, but he's a terrible choice! The man would last thirty seconds until that damn back of his gave out, and then you'd be trapped underneath him a la Elaine Benes when she got crushed by her mattress from The Lumbar Yard.

#history #letters #this was so much fun #bless you anon #thanks for the laugh!

[period-dramallama]

Becoming Elizabeth review: episode 3

Tw for grooming, csa. Just in case.

- Are her ladies watching her peeing?! The Tudors had some concept of privacy! Her ladies should not be watching, that’s weird. And why is Jane there? She’s not Katherine’s servant.

-Yes, the doctor would taste the pee, but I don’t think he would swallow it. Maybe he’s just a weird guy.

-”It is a death sentence” look yes some women died in childbirth in their mid to late 30s. It was more likely than dying in childbirth in your 20s BUT it was not a death sentence. Elizabeth Woodville, for example, successfully gave birth to a daughter (who lived to adulthood) in 1480, her 43rd year. Her mother did just the same in 1457. Catherine Parr’s death came as a shock. Elizabeth of York’s death came as a shock. 

-The doctor is incredibly rude, though. She’s the wife of the previous king! She’s your employer! You are not irreplaceable, douche nozzle!

-Tommy S’s jealousy... well done. Excellent line: “nobody else gets to play with you.” Speaks fuckign VOLUMES

-what IS the music in the dress cutting scene? Did they assign tracks randomly to scenes? WHY is the Tudor equivalent of elevator music playing?? This should be a suspenseful scene!

-What are Jane Grey and Kat Ashley doing here?? 

-Mary saying that Henry VIII ‘danced on a string’ for Katherine...did he?? Pretty sure he was the one with the power?? Nearly had her executed??

-For a guy in his 60s, Stephen Gardiner sure looks young

-Katherine Parr calling Anne the great whore... c’mon. And Katherine Howard a silly girl. That was an unnecessarily cruel thing to say to a girl who loved both those women. And Katherine surely didn’t believe Anne was actually guilty, IMHO.

-”I notice wisdom is not on that list” Sir Pedro i love u

-the utter hypocrisy of Tommy S saying Elizabeth has made a fine mess... what has Tommy S ever done except make mess after mess?

-Nice that they emphasise Elizabeth’s desire to be treated as an adult

- Kat calling Elizabeth ‘my birthday girl’ :’)

-Elizabeth wearing the B should have happened earlier, it’s the decision of a 13 year old who thinks “well my father has died so nobody will care about that anymore” not a 15 year old.

-To quote Lindybeige, FIRE ARROWS! 

-BUT i do love edward’s participation in Elizabeth’s surprise, lil boi must have been so excited to take part :’)

-Tommy S standing in front of burning river... foreshadowing that he’s going to hell lol

-Are they playing Snap?

-I almost wonder if Anya writes these party scenes so the production designers have an excuse to go wild

-not that I’m complaining, love me some revels

-Elizabeth Queen of Trolling

-I’m getting flashbacks to the song in The Other Boleyn Girl

-the secondhand embarassment, I cannot even. KILL ME.

-Edward turns into Simon Cowell

-Elizabeth and Jane getting

-Edward tearing Ed a new one YES YES YES

-Elizabeth’s pain :’(

-Jessica Raine is KILLING it this episode but please give her a better storyline

-Their last scene should have been in private, don’t say those things in front of servants!

-PLEASE Katherine show Elizabeth some affection before she leaves PLEEEEEASE

-I am weak. I am weak.

-LMAO Spanish Princess started autoplaying after the episode finished NO THAT IS NOT WHAT I NEED

#becoming elizabeth spoilers #becoming elizabeth

[legends-of-time]

Thorn Bush (Doctor Who Story)

Chapter 9: The Day of the Doctor Part One

Masterlist

A/N: While this chapter is predominantly The Day of the Doctor episode, it will be covering part of The Power of Three 7x04 at the beginning.

——

Kathy keeps busy over the next century.

From messing about in the War of the roses to the renaissance era in Florence and meeting the Medici family in the late 15th to early 16th centuries as well as travelling to meet the Aztecs, who end up trying to sacrifice her when she mentions her on her life span. Thankfully she was able to get herself out of that situation.

——

1537

Kathy follows the chaos of Amy, Rory and the Eleventh Doctor as they flee the Chapel Royal at Hampton Court and into the Duke of Suffolk's bedroom.

Take a guess at what happened.

Kathy had been spending the last 11 years living in the Tudor court in England because how could she not? Plus, that date was the beginning of King Henry and Anne Boleyn's explosive relationship. She had been obsessed with the Tudor dynasty for years so of course, now she has the chance, she's going to try and meet them.

She had arrived at the English court at Hampton Palace, which was where they were currently stationed at the time, and introduced herself as a wealthy but widowed English woman known as Lady Joan Davazat from Venice, Italy and needing shelter and support from King Henry VIII and his then wife Catherine of Aragon. Kathy was given a position among the Queen's ladies and that is when she met Anne Boleyn. Now Kathy didn't exactly plan this but she may have gotten a bit closer to Anne than she meant to. She really didn't intend to be involved in an affair but things happen.

The King's next wedding, to Jane Seymour, was going well until someone, as the vows were being spoken, says "yes". It doesn't take Kathy long to realise that it was Amy and watches the three flee the room with Kathy barging through the crowd to chase after them.

Kathy gets distracted when she spots what appears to be a phone charger lying on the floor and picks it up before continuing on her quest. She sees the King ahead of her. She gets into the room as the King does. She knows that the three time travellers are under the bed. Suddenly there is a sneeze from that direction, the Doctor, and a whispered "Sorry", causing the King to pause.

"Your Majesty!" Kathy cries barging into the room. "There you are!"

"Yes Lady Joan?" The King asks irritably.

"The uh... the Queen is asking for you. I-I'm sure you can leave this mess for someone else to sort."

The King lets an irritated huff. "I suppose you are right." He leaves the room and Kathy turns to the bed.

She then dips down to face the three under the bed. "I think you dropped this." She holds up the phone charger that one of them, Rory most likely, had dropped while running.

"Kathy!" The Doctor cries happily.

Kathy rolls her eyes. "Come on we need to get you guys out."

Rory reaches out to take the phone charge from her hand. "Um... thanks that was mine."

"You should know better than to leave things like this around, you know." Kathy admonishes. "Why are you carrying it around in the 16th century anyway?" Kathy grabs a candle and guides them down the corridors that are out of view of the public.

"I thought I might need it." Rory defends.

His wife lets out a huff. "Yeah right."

"When was the last time you saw us?" The Doctor asks.

"Those two," Kathy points at the two humans, "when we left them on their honeymoon," she points at the Time Lord, "you I last saw was that thing with the Shansheeth."

"Oh, so you haven't been—"

Kathy rolls her eyes. "Spoilers!" She knows that these three are during season 7, nearing the end of Amy and Rory's time on the TARDIS and Kathy wonders what happened to her during their adventures.

"Right."

"Why here?" Amy asks later on.

"You are talking to the girl who, as a history nerd, was and is obsessed with the Tudors. Of course I'm here!" Kathy retorts.

"She's got a point." Rory tells his wife.

"Thank you, Rory." Kathy says. "Ah, the TARDIS should be down here if you've remembered rightly where you put her."

"When am I ever wrong?!" The Doctor whines. The other three just stare at him. He huffs and they continue.

It's only a few more moments before they find the TARDIS and with a quick goodbye, they leave and Kathy turns back to sorting out the mess left behind though she's planning on leaving soon anyway.

——

1562

Kathy sits on a hilltop on a chilly English day. The sound of the flag flapping in the wind behind her as she folds the skirts of her Tudor style dress. A large blanket and pillow get up with goblets of drinks, fruits, cheeses, and other such things are next to where she currently sits.

She glances over when hearing the galloping of a horse's feet going across the grass. Coming up the hill was the Tenth Docotor and Queen Elizabeth I, riding on a white horse and laughing together. Kathy raises an eyebrow at the two. She knows the Doctor is investigating the signs of Zygons present in this time period as he had asked her to help and she is in the area so she thought why not, but he seems to be enjoying himself a little too much. The Doctor's way of avoiding things as it is near the end of his run. It is weird seeing Ten again as she has not had much experience with him, not since the first time she met him.

She had left the Tudor court in 1537 and did not return until the beginning of Queen Elizabeth's reign in 1558. This is so no one is none the wiser over her not ageing and Elizabeth does not know as she had been young when Kathy had last been at court.

Kathy stands up, going over to the horse as they ride up to the hilltop. She smiles lightly at them, finding their laughter funny. It is nice seeing the Doctor enjoy himself so much. Even if it is with a suspected alien invading Zygon. Though it is funny to watch him being uncomfortable and fidgety as when he was forced to stand for a painting with Elizabeth. He had pouted and itched at the outfit Queen Elizabeth had practically ordered him to wear the whole time.

"Enjoy the TARDIS, your Majesty?" Kathy asks Elizabeth politely as they approach, holding out a hand to help the Queen down from the white horse.

"Oh, it was splendid!" Elizabeth laughs merrily once she has hopped down, smiling at Kathy gracefully as she adjusts her golden dress from all the horse riding. The ginger Queen then smiles slyly at the Doctor as he hops down from the horse. "That, and other things." The Doctor glances at Kathy when seeing her raise an interested brow at him. He clears his throat nervously.

"Uh... picnic time!" The Doctor suddenly exclaims, dashing over to the food.

——

Kathy sits awkwardly to the side as the Doctor spreads himself over the blanket, leaning against the cushions with the Queen slumped across his lap. She seriously feels like she's third wheeling. It's more Elizabeth that's been making her feel like this and not the Doctor though. Kathy keeps herself happy by stuffing her face with the food.

"Tell me, Doctor, why I'm wasting my time on you. I have wars to plan." Elizabeth says.

"You have a picnic to eat." The Doctor replies. "Though Kathy is eating most of it."

"Shut up." Kathy quips and stuffs a few more grapes into her mouth. She watches the horse from the corner of her eye, knowing that the creature is the real Zygon.

"You could help me." Elizabeth replies to the Doctor's statement after a quick laugh.

"Well, I'm helping you eat the picnic." The Doctor feeds her a grape. Kathy wrinkles her face at the adoring gaze on the Queen of England's face.

"But you have a stomach for war. This face has seen conflict, it's as clear as day." Elizabeth strokes his face.

"Oh, I've seen conflict like you wouldn't believe. But it wasn't this face. But never mind that, your Majesty." The Doctor leaps up. "Up on your feet. Up, up."

"Christ." Kathy mutters, she knows where this is going.

"How dare you? I'm the Queen of England." Elizabeth exclaims in disbelief.

"I'm not English."

"Funny cause you sound it." Kathy retorts as the Doctor drops to his knees.

"Sssh!" The Doctor hisses before turning to the royal. "Elizabeth, will you marry me?"

"Oh, my dear sweet love. Of course I will." Elizabeth replies happily.

"Oh Lord." Kathy hopes she is there when the fallout happens when he's with Martha and Shakespeare.

"Ah, gotcha!" The Doctor yells triumphantly, leaping to his feet again before she has the chance to grab him for another kiss.

"My love?" Elizabeth asks. She turns to Kathy in confusion but Kathy just shakes her head. She's really not explaining this one.

The Doctor ignores this. "One, the real Elizabeth would never have accepted my marriage proposal. Two, the real Elizabeth would notice when I just casually mentioned having a different face. But then the real Elizabeth isn't a shape-shifting alien from outer space. And," he holds out a clockwork gizmo, "ding."

"What's that?" Elizabeth questions now more bewildered.

"It's a machine that goes ding." The Doctor replies. "Made it myself. Lights up in the presence of shape-shifter DNA." He pulls out a very long, metal antenna from it. "Oooh. Also, it can microwave frozen dinners from up to twenty feet and download comics from the future. I never know when to stop."

"No, you don't." Kathy winces.

"My love, I do not understand." The Queen utters desperately.

"He's being an idiot, your Majesty." Kathy remarks.

The Doctor looks at her confused. "Why are you still calling her that? She's a Zygon, she doesn't need an explanation!"

"No, she isn't." Kathy replies. "My hint was that it isn't who you think."

"A Zygon?" Elizabeth questions, bringing their attention back to her.

"Oh, stop it. It's over." The Doctor shoves the gizmo into his pocket. "A Zygon, yes. Big red rubbery thing covered in suckers. Surprisingly good kisser. Think the real Queen of England would just decide to share her throne with any old handsome bloke in a tight suit," Kathy doesn't like the look on Elizabeth's face at that comment, "just cos he's got amazing hair and a nice horse? Oh." No more white horse. Instead, there's the Zygon. "It was the horse. I'm going to be King."

"Told you so. Run!" Kathy cries and the three of them bolt.

"What's happening?" Elizabeth cries.

"Zygomatic, shapeshifter, big suckers, angry alien from outer space, wants to kill us." Kathy replies.

"What does that mean?"

"It means we're going to need a new horse." The Doctor replies. They run into a ruined building, hiding behind the arched walls of what is left. The Doctor and Kathy on one side and Elizabeth on the other. They hold their breaths as the shapeshifter wonders about and then goes off into the woods instead.

"Where's it going?" Elizabeth asks fearfully.

"I'll hold it off. You run. Your people need you." The Doctor urges.

"And I need you alive for our wedding day." Elizabeth kisses him though it doesn't look like a comfortable feeling for the Doctor, then runs.

Kathy slow claps causing him to turn to her. "Great work Doctor. Not one for preserving history, are you?"

"Shut up." The Doctor mumbles and wipes his mouth. "Right, you go one way, I go another. That should corner it."

Kathy rolls her eyes and lets out a snort. "Yeah, cause splitting up always works.

"Just do it!"

——

Kathy runs through the woods and eventually finds Ten talking to a lop-eared rabbit.

"I am the Oncoming Storm, the Bringer of Darkness, and..."

"An idiot as that's just a rabbit." Kathy calls causing him to look at her. "You're really bad at this."

"No, I'm not and I knew that! Just a general warning." The Doctor defends. "Though maybe I should have calibrated this with a few less side features." He whacks the device.

"Whatever." Kathy picks the rabbit up. "Oh, you're a lovely one, aren't you? Yes you are!"

"Kathy put the rabbit down."

Kathy clings to the rabbit. "No! I can't leave Franklin!"

"Franklin?" The Doctor echoes disbelievingly.

"Yep!"

"Doctor!" Elizabeth yells.

"And now let's save another Queen." Kathy mutters. They bolt and run to the noise.

"Elizabeth!" They find her lying on the ground in a clearing and the Doctor helps her up.

"That thing. Explain what it is. What does it want of us?" The Queen questions.

"Probably just your planet, your Majesty." Kathy tells her.

"Doctor." A voice calls. They turn to see another Elizabeth emerge from the woods.

"Jesus." Kathy mumbles, rubbing her forehead.

"Step away from her, Doctor. That's not me. That's the creature." Elizabeth 2 declares confidently.

"How is that possible? She's me." Elizabeth gasps looking astonished at what's in front of her. "Doctor, she's me!"

"I am indeed me. A compliment that cannot be extended to yourself." Elizabeth two remarks.

The Doctor tries to use his gizmo by extending the antenna and waving it around the two women. The thing merely whirled, just as bewildered. All the while the two Elizabeths circle one another, throwing retorts at each other. A time fissure then appears in the air.

"Finally!" Kathy exclaims.

"Back, all of you, now!" The Doctor tries to get the three women behind him but Kathy doesn't and steps forward as she knows what's going to happen and therefore doesn't worry. "Are you ever going to listen?"

"Nope!"

"Kathy that's a time fissure!" The Doctor contends. "A tear in the fabric of reality. Anything could happen!" A red fez drops out of it.

"A fez!!" Kathy cries happily and shoves it on her head. She honestly feels as if all her life goals have been completed. She makes sure there's a distance between her and the fissure so that the Eleventh Doctor doesn't land on her.

A cry of "Geronimo!" is heard and then Eleven flies through the fissure and lands face first, flat on the ground. "Oof!" Eleven then lifts himself back to his feet and blinks as if adjusting his eyesight for a moment before grinning. "Hello!"

"Hi!" Kathy waves.

"Who is this man?" Elizabeth one demands to know.

"That's just what I was wondering." Ten mutters.

Eleven observes his past self. "Oh, that is skinny. That is proper skinny," he looks his past self up and down. "I've never seen it from the outside. It's like a special effect." He looks down at his own body as if to do a comparison then charges toward Ten. "Ha! Matchstick man."

The two stare at each other. "You're not." Ten mutters.

They both get out their sonic screwdrivers, ready to do another comparison. Each held them in hand, making the devices pulse. Eleven flicked his out, extending it to full size. Ten frowns for a moment, sliding his up all the way. Eleven's is bigger and better.

"I wonder if I should whip mine out." Kathy mutters to the Elizabeths, who both give her a look of disgust.

"Compensating?" Ten remarks sarcastically.

"For what?"

"Regeneration. It's a lottery." Ten replies slickly, trying not to show his smirk.

Eleven takes offence. "Oh, he's cool. Isn't he cool?" The Doctors flip their sonics and put them back in their pockets. "I'm the Doctor and I'm all cool. Oops, I'm wearing sandshoes."

"Sandshoes?" Kathy had to laugh at that. "Is that really the best you can come up with?"

"Shut up."

"What are you doing here? I'm busy." Ten points behind him to the Elizabeths.

"Oh, busy. I see. Is that what we're calling it, eh? Eh?" The Doctor grabs the fez from Kathy's head, causing her to pout, puts it on his head and turns to the two Elizabeths. "Hello, ladies."

"Don't start." Ten grumbles at his future self.

"Listen, what you get up to in the privacy of your own regeneration is your business." Eleven remarks.

"One of them is a Zygon." Ten explains.

"Urgh. Kathy how could you allow this to happen?" Eleven accuses.

"Oi! Don't blame me! I tried to stop him!" Kathy defends.

The time fissure reappears and the three time travellers turn their full attention towards it as it swirls in the air. The two Doctors frown at it while Kathy just observes it as she knows she doesn't need to do anything right now. They both put on their glasses, then notice each other and go "Oh, lovely!" at each other. Kathy gives Franklin, who's still in her arms, a rub on the head.

"Your Majesties... probably a good time to run." Eleven suggests as he turns to them, placing his glasses in his inner pocket.

"But what about the creature?" Both ask in perfect sync.

Ten puts his own glasses away and turns to them. "Elizabeth, whichever one of you is the real one, turn and run in the opposite direction to the other one." Eleven mimics that with his hands.

"Of course, my love." Both say.

The first Elizabeth steps forward. "Stay alive, my love. I am not done with you yet." She pulls Ten down for a hard kiss. Once done, she takes off to their left. Kathy pulls a face at the scene.

"Thanks. Lovely." Ten mutters.

The next one comes up. "I understand. Live for me, my darling. We shall be together again." There's another kiss and a run to the right.

"Well, won't that be nice?" Ten grimaces.

"One of those was a Zygon and the other the Queen of England from 1562." Kathy remarks.

"You forgot the that a Zygon is a red rubbery thing covered in suckers." Eleven points out.

Kathy looks at him with a deadly straight face. "Oh yes, I forgot. I should also mention the venom sacs in the tongue."

"Yeah, I'm getting the point, thank you." Ten snaps irritably while the two next to him grin. "Kathy please put down that rabbit."

Kathy looks at him aghast. "He's not just a rabbit! This is Franklin!" Ten rolls his eyes while Eleven nods in approval.

Kathy then remembers that Clara and Kate Stewart are currently on the other side of the fisher. She turns away from the two Doctors and yells, "Hi Clara!"

"Kathy, is that you?" Comes Clara's voice.

"Ah, hello, Clara. Can you hear us?" Eleven asks.

"Yeah, it's me. We can hear you. Where are you? And how is Kathy there?" Clara calls.

"Where are we?" Eleven asks Ten.

"England, 1562." Ten calls.

"Who are you talking to?" Clara asks.

"Myself." The Doctors say in unison before grinning at each other.

"Can you come back through?" Kate asks.

"No, that'll be difficult but we do need to let them know we're here and ready for them." Kathy grabs the fez from Eleven's head, after having reluctantly put down Franklin to let him chew on the grass, and throws it into the fisher. "There that should do it."

"Who were you signalling?" Ten asks curiously.

"Was it Clara?" Eleven asks.

"Nothing here." Clara calls.

Kathy shakes her head. "No someone else but don't worry you'll see soon. Trust me."

Ten turns to his future self. "Okay, you used to be me, you've done all this before. What happens next?"

Eleven shakes his head. "I don't remember. Kathy?"

"Spoilers!"

"How can you forget this?" Ten gestures between them.

"Maybe it's the paradoxes at work?" Kathy suggests.

"Yeah!" Eleven violently points at Kathy. "And also, it's not my fault. You're obviously not paying enough attention. Reverse the polarity!"

They both aim their sonic screwdrivers at the fissure. Kathy doesn't bother to bring hers out as there'd be no point.

After a moment of nothing, Eleven leans towards Ten. "It's not working."

Ten lets go of the button in his sonic, frowning. "We're both reversing the polarity."

"Yes, I know that."

Kathy snickers as she watches before pulling herself together to speak, "There's two of you. He's reversing it, you're reversing it back again. You're confusing the polarity."

"Oh."

Suddenly the fissure makes a swooshing sound and out comes the War Doctor and in his hands is the fez that Kathy had thrown.

"Ah, hello." Kathy greets.

"Anyone lose a fez?" The War Doctor politely asks but Kathy can see he's curious as well. Her eyes flickering around him, wondering if the interface for the moment is nearby.

"Yes, thank you." Kathy cheerfully takes it from him and puts it on her head. She turns to the other two Doctors. She frowns when she realises Franklin had hopped off. Rude.

The two Doctors stare at their previous self with a mixture of awe and disbelief with their jaws slack and eyes wide but Kathy can see the anger growing. This is a man that the two of them have tried to forget.

"You." Ten breathes. His tone changes as his teeth grit together. "How can you be here? More to the point, why are you here?"

"Good afternoon. I'm looking for the Doctor." The youngest, which is funny as he physically appears the oldest, Doctor says politely. Kathy snorts while the two older Doctors glance at each other with raised eyebrows.

"Well, you've certainly come to the right place." Ten mutters.

"Good. Right. Well, who are you boys?" The War Doctor asks curiously. "Oh, of course. Are you his companions?" Kathy barks out a laugh at the looks on Ten and Eleven's faces.

"His companions?" Eleven mutters in disbelief.

"They get younger all the time. Well, if you could point me in the general direction of the Doctor." Ten and Eleven both demonstrate their sonic screwdrivers.

"Really?" The newcomer utters in surprise.

"Yeah."

"Really."

The War Doctor looks at Kathy. "Who's she?"

"Oh, I'm Kathy." She replies. "And these two next to me are you."

"Even that one?" The man gestures to Eleven.

"Yes!" Eleven exclaims offended.

"You're my future selves?"

"Yes!" The three in front of him cry.

"Am I having a midlife crisis?" He steps forward, but his future selves stumble back and pull out their sonics, pointing them at him so he doesn't move any further, and shove Kathy behind them. Kathy shakes her head at them but in a way she can't blame them, not with what they believe. "Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols. Look like you've seen a ghost."

"Still, loving the posh gravelly thing. It's very convincing." Ten mumbles snidely.

"Brave words, Dick van Dyke." Eleven scoffs. A troop of soldiers run up from out of the woods shouting and clanking, led by a nobleman and surround them.

"Encircle them." The nobleman orders as the soldiers lower their pokes and swords at the group of four, forcing the two Doctors to lift their sonics once more in a defensive manoeuvre with Kathy pressed between them. "Which of you is the Doctor? The Queen of England is bewitched. I would have the Doctor's head."

"Well, this has all the makings of your lucky day." The War Doctor remarks.

"There's a precedent for that." Comes Kate's voice from the time fissure which still swirled above their heads. All the humans stare in shock and horror at the sight of it.

"What is that?" The nobleman asks fearfully.

The War Doctor glances back and sees what his future selves are doing and scoffs, "Oh, the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do, assemble a cabinet at them?"

"You heard the man." Kathy pipes up. "Put them down." Eleven and Ten glance at each other before reluctantly lowering their arms and slipping their sonics away.

"That thing, what witchcraft is it?" The man in charge of the Queen's men demands.

"Ah, yes. Now that you mention it." Eleven speaks rapidly, stepping away from the group, which Kathy takes as her chance to follow him, "that is witchcraft. Yes, yes, yes. Witchy witchcraft. Hello? Hello in there. Excuse me. Hello! Am I talking to the wicked witch of the well? Clara?"

"Hello?" Clara calls after some muttering.

"Ah, Clara there you are." Kathy remarks, having walked over. "Could you possibly tell these prattling mortals to get themselves begone?"

"What she said."

"Yes, tiny bit more colour." Eleven prompts.

"Right. Prattling mortals, off you... pop, or I'll turn you all into frogs," comes Clara's voice. The armed men flinch and take a step back, now seeming fearful as to them the weak threat feels very real.

"Oooh, frogs. Nice." Eleven mutters, turning to the men around them and pointing at them. "You heard her." Kathy nods with a completely straight face but on the inside, she's laughing at the whole situation.

"Doctor, what's going on?" Clara asks.

"It's a timey-wimey thing." Eleven answers offhandedly.

The War Doctor looks at his future self in disbelief, as if Eleven had lost his marbles. "Timey what? Timey-wimey?"

"I've no idea where he picks that stuff up." Ten tries to deflect with a shake of his head as if disapproving as well.

Kathy snorts. "You know full well where he got it."

"The Queen." A soldier cries and Kathy sees Elizabeth enter calmly as if she had just been on a walkabout. "The Queen." The soldiers fall to their knees, bowing while the time travellers continue standing. Kathy notices the odd behaviour, the smirk on the woman's face, but she knows that there's nothing to worry about as it's the real one and not a Zygon.

"You don't seem to be kneeling. How tremendously brave of you." Elizabeth remarks coolly.

"Which one are you?" Ten narrows his eyes as if trying to determine it. "What happened to the other one?"

The Queen smirks darkly. "Indisposed. Long live the Queen." She grins as the soldiers echo her words.

"Arrest these men and that woman." Elizabeth eyes Kathy in distaste, "Take them to the Tower."

"That is not the Queen of England." Ten declares, jabbing a harsh finger at Elizabeth, "that's an alien duplicate."

"And you can take it from him, cos he's really checked." Eleven mutters.

"Oh, shut up."

"Venom sacs in the tongue." Kathy adds.

"Seriously, stop it." Ten grumbles. Eleven and Kathy smirk and give each other an under-hand high five.

"No, hang on." Eleven calls, his eyes widening as he realises what Elizabeth had said and steps forward with a grin and immediately starts flapping his hands about as he speaks. "The Tower. Did you say the Tower? Ah, yes, brilliant. Love the Tower. Breakfast at eight, please. Will there be Wi-Fi?"

"Are you capable of speaking without flapping your hands about?" The youngest of the Doctors asks gruffly, probably still feeling baffled that he would become this.

"Yes."

"No." Kathy says easily, smiling slyly at him.

Eleven then proceeds to continue to flail his arms around as he speaks, spinning around to Elizabeth, "I demand to be incarcerated in the Tower immediately with my co-conspirators Jesus, Sandshoes and Granddad."

"Granddad?" The War Doctor exclaims, looking put out.

"Jesus?" Kathy murmurs to herself.

"They're not sandshoes." Ten sighs.

"Yes, they are." The youngest retorts.

"Silence. The Tower is not to be taken lightly." Elizabeth barks crossly, appearing annoyed that they all were not threatened in the slightest. "Very few emerge again."

——

"Come on, you lot, get in there." The Warder orders as he shoves the four of them into the cell.

"Ow." The War Doctor complains, straightening himself and tugging on his jacket.

The Warder leaves, shutting the door behind him though Kathy knows it hasn't been locked. Kathy, the only one that hadn't been manhandled, looks around the floor for a piece of a metal bar, finds it and hands it to Eleven, who starts scratching on a stone pillar. The War Doctor starts using his sonic screwdriver on the wooden door. Ten leans up against a wall with his hands in his pockets.

"Three of us in one cell? That's going to cause some nasty anomalies if we don't get out soon." Ten comments, he turns to his future self. "What are you doing?"

"Getting us out."

"The sonic won't work on that, it's too primitive." Ten calls to the War Doctor.

"In other words, it doesn't work on wood." Kathy smirks.

"Shall we ask for a better quality of door so we can escape?" Eleven tries to joke. He continues scratching.

"Okay," Ten shakes his head, "so the Queen of England is now a Zygon. But never mind that. Why are we all together? Why are we all here? Well, me and... Chinny," he waves a hand at Eleven, "we were surprised, but you," his eyes narrow, "you came looking for us. Kathy already knew, obviously, but you knew it was going to happen. Who told you?"

Kathy knows that the Moment Rose is holding a finger to her lips

Eleven saves his youngest self from answering when he realises what Ten had just called him, "Oi, Chinny?"

"Yeah, you do have a chin."

"Remember that you're the leggy one." Kathy warns Ten with a smile on her face. The man lets out a huff of annoyance. Eleven is still scratching his message.

The War Doctor is still scanning to get them out and while Kathy knows that it isn't locked and they could just leave, but the youngest Doctor needs to see this, needed to see this future.

"In theory, I can trigger an isolated sonic shift among the molecules, and the door should disintegrate." Said man says.

"We'd have to calculate the exact harmonic resonance of the entire structure down to a sub-atomic level." Ten disagrees. "Even the sonic would take years."

"No, no," the War Doctor shakes his head and lets out a long sigh, "the sonic would take centuries. Oh, we might as well get started." He sits on the bench beside the door. "Help to pass the timey-wimey. Do you have to talk like children?"

"Trust me, if you think this bad, just you wait." Kathy comments.

The War Doctor glances at them all with an odd look. "What is it that makes you so ashamed of being a grown up?" Kathy notices that while the other two Doctors had turned to look at him, both seem unable to actually hold his gaze and look away, returning to their scratching and fiddling with the sonic. "Oh, the way you both look at me. What is that? I'm trying to think of a better word than dread."

"It must be really recent for you." Ten finally manages to hold his past self's gaze for more than a few seconds. Eleven stops scratching.

The War Doctor seems confused about what he is speaking of. "Recent?"

"The Time War." Eleven clears his throat, tensing. "The last day. The day you killed them all."

Kathy feels sorrier for the War Doctor as he hadn't actually committed the atrocities that these two had believed he had done and hopefully he will not if everything continues as it should.

"The day we killed them all." Ten corrects.

Eleven winces as if having to actually remind himself that they are the same people is painful for him. "Same thing."

Elevens goes back to scratching and Ten paces while Kathy observes the third Doctor in the room. The War Doctor's expression grows harder as he hears that he did apparently kill them all. Kathy wishes she can tell him otherwise but not yet.

"I don't talk about it." The youngest Doctor suddenly says. Kathy's flicker to next to Ten and next to the War Doctor, knowing Moment Rose is in either place.

"You're not talking about it." Ten casts him an odd look. "There's no one else here other than Kathy and she either already knows or won't tell."

"Did you ever count?"

"Count what?" Eleven's voice is slightly muffled as his back is towards the rest of them.

"How many children there were on Gallifrey that day." Both men freeze in their workings. Kathy feels herself tense.

"I have absolutely no idea." Eleven remarks as if he doesn't know and the question hadn't affected him but Kathy can tell he's trying to force emotion out of his voice. She watches as Eleven resumes his scratching, putting more effort, force and concentration than is strictly needed.

The War Doctor frowns. "How old are you now?"

"Ah, I don't know. I lose track. Twelve hundred and something, I think, unless I'm lying. I can't remember if I'm lying about my age, that's how old I am." Eleven replies casually.

"Four hundred years older than me." The War Doctor muses, "and in all that time you've never even wondered how many there were? You never once counted?"

"Tell me, what would be the point?" Eleven spins round to angrily face him.

"Two point four seven billion." Ten says, contradicting his older self.

"You did count!" The War Doctor exclaims. Kathy hears a hint of an amused laugh, which makes her frown. Eleven lets out a disgusted noise at both of his past selves and turns back to the pillar to finish scratching.

"You forgot? Four hundred years, is that all it takes?" Ten snaps at Eleven.

"I moved on." Eleven says gruffly, glaring back.

"Where?" Ten barks. "Where can you be now that you can forget something like that?"

"Of course he hasn't forgotten!" Kathy snaps at Ten, honestly, he irritated her at this bit. "How could he? Just leave, him alone." She sees the misty look in Eleven's eyes.

Ten frowns contemplatively then shakes his head. "No, no, no, no. For once, I would like to know where I'm going."

"No, you really wouldn't." Eleven retorts.

"I don't know who you are, either of you." The War Doctor half throws his hands up in the air in surrender. "I haven't got the faintest idea."

After a few moments, the youngest Doctor murmurs, "No."

Kathy knows he's just talking to the Moment interface but Ten looks at him in confusion. "No?"

"Just... no." The War Doctor shakes his head. Eleven lets out a laugh, drawing their attention.

"Is something funny? Did I miss a funny thing?" Ten snidely quips.

"Sorry." Eleven turns around with a smile on his face causing Kathy to smile herself, happy to see him in a better mood. "It just occurred to me." He looks at Kathy and nods to the two men. "This is what I'm like when I'm alone."

Kathy lets out a slight chuckle. "Yeah, tell me about it."

"Four hundred years." The War Doctor suddenly says.

"I'm sorry?" Ten asks.

"At a software level," the War Doctor pulls out his sonic in demonstration, "they're all the same device, aren't they? Same software, different case."

"Yeah."

"So..."

The War Doctor beams and strides to the door. "So, it would take centuries for the screwdriver to calculate how to disintegrate the door." He quickly flicks his sonic on, moving it along the edges of the door, getting a full scan. "Scanning the door, implanting the calculation as a permanent subroutine in the software architecture and," he spins around and points at the men, "if you really are me, with your sandshoes and your dickie bow," Kathy snorts and he shoots a smile at her, "and that screwdriver is still mine, that calculation is still going on."

Kathy turns to Ten. "Go on. Check."

Ten blinks at that and quickly brings the sonic up to examine the readings, holding it to his ear to listen, "Yeah, still going."

Kathy looks at Eleven. "And you?"

"Calculation complete." Eleven cheers.

"Hey, four hundred years in four seconds. We may have had our differences, which is frankly odd in the circumstances, but I tell you what, boys. We are incredibly clever." As soon as Eleven finishes speaking, Clara opens the door and nearly falls in. Kathy tries not to laugh at the Doctors' shocked faces.

Eleven gapes at her, "How did you do that?"

"It wasn't locked." Clara explains.

"Right."

"Hi Kathy!" Clara waves.

Kathy smiles. "Hi Clara."

"So, they're both you, then, yeah?" Clara then asks Eleven in a mixture of curiosity and excitement.

"Yes. You've met them before. Don't you remember?"

"A bit." Clara glances at Ten. "Nice suit."

"Thanks." He frowns, staring at Clara intently. "Wait, she looks a lot like—"

Kathy's confused as Ten didn't have this reaction to Clara in the show, maybe he's noticed her echoes. Ten looks to Eleven who quickly shakes his head, glancing at Kathy.

"Hang on. Three of you in one cell, and none of you thought to try the door?" Clara questions.

"It should have been locked." The War Doctor defends near petulantly.

"Why did you assume that for?" Kathy asks smirking.

"You could've said." Ten complains.

Kathy shrugs. "You needed to chat."

"But why wasn't it locked?" Eleven realises.

"Because," a familiar voice begins and all of them look to see Elizabeth sauntering up to the door, "I was fascinated to see what you would do upon escaping. I understand you're rather fond of this world. It's time I think you saw what's going to happen to it." She crooks her finger and turns to walk away.

——

Kathy looks over a small balcony and down into a deeper part of the Tower's basement where the Zygons have set up some sort of base. There's a great quantity of machinery, 3D paintings and Zygons walking about in their own skin

"The Zygons lost their own world. It burnt in the first days of the Time War. A new home is required." Elizabeth explains as she walks along the balcony with them following her.

"So, they want this one." Clara concludes.

"Not yet. It's far too primitive. Zygons are used to a certain level of comfort." Elizabeth replies.

"Why do they always want the earth?" Kathy sighs.

They are interrupted by a hissing voice. "Commander, why are these creatures here?"

Kathy turns around with the others to see a line Zygon had joined them and is glaring at the five of them. She grimaces when she sees a sort of yellowish green slime coating the Zygon's mouth.

"Because I say they should be." Elizabeth lifts her chin, giving the Zygon a hard look, challenging it. Kathy has to give her credit for this performance. "It is time you too were translated." The creature growls but abruptly turns and stalks off down to where a glass cube is sitting on a small table before a 3D portrait. It places its hand on the cube and closed its eyes, waiting. "Observe this. I believe you will find it fascinating."

They, other Kathy who knows what's going to happen but follows along, move to the edge of the balcony to watch curiously. The cube begins to hum and rattle, the Zygon fades then vanishes as it is sucked into the painting and becomes a shadowy figure in the painting.

"That's him!" Clara exclaims stepping forward, closer to the picture. "That's the Zygon in the picture now."

"It's not a picture, it's a stasis cube." The War Doctor explains. "Time Lord art. Frozen instants in time, bigger on the inside, but could be deployed as..."

"...suspended animation." Ten realises, Eleven snaps his fingers at him then Ten steps closer to the painting. "Oh, that's very good. The Zygons all pop inside the pictures, wait a few centuries till the planet's a bit more interesting, and then out they come."

Eleven follows with the War Doctor and Kathy. "You see, Clara, they're stored in the paintings in the Under Gallery, like cup-a-soups. Except you add time, if you can picture that."

"I doubt you could, Doctor." Kathy says.

"Right." He agrees. "Forget I said cup-a-soups."

"And now the world is worth conquering. So, the Zygons are invading the future from the past." Clara concludes.

"Exactly."

"And!" Ten cheers, rounding on Elizabeth, spinning on his heel. "Do you know why I know that you're a fake?" He saunters over to her, grinning as though he's worked out some fantastic mystery but really he hasn't. "Because you're such a bad copy. It's not just the smell, or the unconvincing hair, or the atrocious teeth, or the eyes just a bit too close together, or the breath that could stun a horse. It's because my Elizabeth, the real Elizabeth, would never be stupid enough to reveal her own plan. Honestly, why would you do that?"

Elizabeth seems unimpressed, quite offended and a tad murderous when she responds, "Because it's not my plan. And I AM the real Elizabeth."

Kathy snorts. "You just insulted Queen Elizabeth I."

"Yeah, thanks, got that." Ten clears his throat and steps back from a displeased Elizabeth. "So... backtracking a moment just to lend context to my earlier remarks..."

"You should never insult a woman, no matter their species." Kathy chastises him. Ten winces.

"My twin is dead in the forest. I am accustomed to taking precautions." She produces a small bejewelled dagger from the garter beneath her skirts. "These Zygon creatures never even considered that it was me who survived rather than their own commander. The arrogance that typifies their kind."

"Zygons?" Clara guesses.

"Men." Elizabeth huffs.

"You killed one dressed like that?" Kathy knows she did but looking at Elizabeth in that big dress makes her feel doubtful.

"I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but at the time, so did the Zygon." Elizabeth smirks before turning serious. "The future of my kingdom is imperilled. Doctor, can I rely on your service?"

"Well, I'm going to need my TARDIS." Ten replies.

"It has been procured already." Elizabeth tells him, smiling.

"Ah."

"But first, my love, you have a promise to keep."

Kathy stifles her giggles at Ten's fearful look.

——

A/N: Living my life vicariously through Kathy during the Tudor stuff at the beginning 😅

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