#iroh is not a saint

[akiizayoi4869]

Ok, something that fandom needs to understand about Iroh's character: he is not a saint. He is a messy, morally grey character. He did fucked up things during his time in the war. He quite literally shows regret for his part in the siege of Ba Sing Se, particularly because it caused the death of his son, Lu Ten. That is the entire point of Iroh's character. Yes, the show could have done a better job in certain areas with Iroh, but the point is that he eventually came to understand that the war and the Fire Nation was wrong, and that he was trying to make up for that in his own way throughout the show. Did he go about it the right way at times? No. But the point is, he tried to do better. He tried to become a better man. Saying that he never committed any war crimes because he was "too honorable," and whatever else this fandumb can come up with to defend Iroh's actions during the war, shows that you actually don't like his character at all. Rather, you like the version of his character that you made up in your head.

#atla #atla fandom critical #iroh #iroh is not a saint

[balanceoflightanddark]

How do you think the Gaang would react if Iroh was forced to face a war crimes tribunal for his actions during the war, particularly his actions during the Siege of Ba Sing Se?

Hmmm. Now THIS is an interesting question, particularly because what the Gaang sees of Iroh might not mesh well with what the world sees of Iroh. Zuko would probably fight tooth and nail to get Iroh out. Obviously. That's-that's in the character's DNA. Aang and Toph both had a heart-to-heart with Iroh, so they might not necessarily know him all too well from his "Dragon of the West" days. As for Katara and Sokka, they'd probably be the only ones who would be on the fence initially since they didn't really have too many good experiences with Iroh personally (aside from the "always did the right thing" from Katara bullshit), but I could see them being convinced by Aang since he was mostly right about Zuko's capability to turn over a new leaf. So as a whole, they'd probably be aghast at the idea of Iroh being put on a tribunal. Probably would argue that him freeing Ba Sing Se during Sozin's Comet should speak to his character.

Here's where things would get murky. They're not gonna have a war crime tribunal unless they find people to testify against Iroh. And Iroh HAD hurt a lot of people, particularly in the grueling 600 Days at Ba Sing Se. Sieges are by their very nature, nasty conflicts. Particularly since the zone they occupied was the Agrarian ring, which would've cut off both soldiers AND civilians from food since...well, that's how a siege works. Cutting off the city's food supply. While we don't have exact details, we also know that in general, Fire Nation military leaders don't have a lot of concern for civilian livelihood and there's nothing suggesting that Iroh would've been any different from this point in his life. So I could imagine there being a slew of civilians from Ba Sing Se and beyond, as well as Earth Kingdom soldiers reading a laundry list of what Iroh pulled.

Now comes the big question: with this in mind, would the Gaang still support Iroh? Sure, maybe Aang and Zuko since they're firm believers in second chances. But what about Sokka or Katara who didn't know Iroh personally like they did, but did know how bad the war affected the Southern Water Tribe and thus could sympathize with those Iroh hurt? Toph I can see being the most torn of all since while she would acknowledge that Iroh is not some monster, she also didn't think too highly of the Fire Nation as a whole. Remember, she was the one who thought they were all evil from birth (at least initially) and advocated for Ozai's death along with the other members of the Gaang. This is a hotbed for controversy amongst them all.

The only one I haven't mentioned yet though is Suki since I'm fairly certain she'd be dead set on Iroh seeing justice. Unlike Toph, Suki never really got to know Iroh and probably would've only had Zuko to vouche for him...you know. The guy that burned down her village. Besides that, she'd probably would've heard stories about the Dragon of the West and probably saw the full brunt of what the Fire Nation was doing in the Earth Kingdom since she and the rest of the Kyoshi Warriors were helping civilians getting out of harms way. Out of all of them, she'd probably be the biggest advocate for Iroh seeing justice. Which would put her at odds with Zuko, obviously. Though it would be an interesting position for the rest of the Gaang since Suki has been a trusted ally and since she'd be the biggest spokesperson for the Earth Kingdom among the team, her position would mean they can't just rule out Iroh walking.

I think the answer will boil down to whether or not they feel that justice is or is not due. Is there justice for punishing a man who regretted his ways? Would it be fair for the people he hurt to let him walk free? These are all pertinent and interesting questions not just for Iroh, but for the Fire Nation as a whole. Where does one draw the line at reconciliation and justice? Sure, the Fire Nation as a whole aren't irredeemable, but they hurt countless lives. Particularly those who stood to gain the most from it, like Ozai, Iroh, Azulon, or Sozin (not counting Azula or Zuko since...well they were kids and neither were initially in line for the throne). Now for me personally, I don't think Iroh had done enough to justify him walking free. But I'm not a character in the series and that's ultimately for the Gaang to decide.

#iroh #uncle iroh #iroh is not a saint #gaang #team avatar #zuko #aang #katara #sokka #toph #suki #atla #atla meta #anon ask #anon answered #ask me anything

[zuko-always-lies]

Iroh literally sexually assaults a character on screen, but what trusted and revered religious figure isn't hiding a few SA scandels?

#anti Iroh #shitpost #saint Iroh

[peony-pearl]

The Jasmine Dragon - reimagined

So instead of just a teashop, I think the Jasmine Dragon could be a visual extension of Iroh’s continued work through the rest of his life in undoing his and his family’s damage onto the world.

Instead of just a teashop, let it be an inn, or a refuge out in the countryside. A place for the displaced from the end of the war. Let it be where travelers can come and rest, and learn about the four nations through art and scrolls and books. To meditate and find a spiritual center, and learn about spirituality in general.

This could potentially be funded by Zuko, as Iroh wouldn’t accept money, unless a traveler simply looking for a bed insists. And when they do, it’s used to maintain the pantry for those who truly need the help.

Every so often, Iroh hikes the perimeter of the area, seeing if he needs to escort anyone to the Jasmine Dragon. He cooks, keeps fresh clothing, washes the feet of those he would have once ruled over with an iron fist, and ensures they are warm and safe. Eventually, he isn’t the only person tending to the refuge. Zuko sends him a staff of a couple of nurses, a few cooks, and others to help clean and maintain the buildings and grounds, but Iroh is 100% hands on with as much as he can be, and pitches in wherever he’s needed, even if that means babysitting a young mother’s children while she rests, scrubbing the robes of a refugee, or aiding an injured guest to their room.

The Jasmine Dragon, a place of health and healing, would not be hidden in the upper ring of Ba Sing Se; but perhaps outside of the city entirely.

Perhaps more towards the place he once knew as his camp during the siege.

But instead of waging war, he is continuing to learn how to unpack generations of trauma implanted into him, that he then implanted into the generation after him.

The trauma Lu Ten will never be able to unlearn.

Lu Ten will never see the man his father became.

The man he became because of Lu Ten’s death.

He is nervous to display his son’s portrait in the main hall. The portrait of a Fire Nation soldier in the hall of a place meant for healing? The irony that Iroh changed because of this soldier - this boy. His son, and yet he knows full well the circumstances of displaying Fire Nation portraits in a place like this.

I think ultimately it would be Katara or Sokka who would convince him to put it somewhere in view. For Iroh to hide who he is while running the Jasmine Dragon would be to go back on everything he’s both learned and unlearned - let the world know Lu Ten’s story. Let the world know the Dragon of the West’s story, and how he came to buck what his family wanted of the world, and he, instead, became a pariah of the Fire Nation and helped liberate Ba Sing Se; and now he’s here, helping to rebuild the lives of those who need it, little by little. Instead of grand dreams like conquering, he can be a lighthouse in the darkest hours for the everyday person - while still sharing good tea and a game of Pai Sho.

#atla #my writing #Iroh #I'm not trying to write 'Saint Iroh' I'm trying to write 'Iroh who knows he goofed and now he's making up for it #while still trying to be positive about the path he's taking'

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Why Iroh is not a Good Judge of Azula's Redeemability

One of the fiercest debates in Avatar fandom is whether or not to take Iroh’s words and actions towards Azula as proof of Azula irredeemability. 

For those who think that Azula is irredeemable point to stuff like, “She’s crazy and needs to go down,” or the fact that there was never any indication that he ever tried to reason with her, even when he tried reasoning with war criminals (the Rough Rhinos), someone who was literally going destroy a fundamental aspect of reality (Zhao), and someone who was attempting to rob him at knifepoint (Tycho), as proof that he knew that Azula was fundamentally broken, or that, after he returned from his wandering to the palace, he realized that Azula was too firmly indoctrinated for him, or anyone other than Azula herself, to save.

Meanwhile, those who think that Azula is redeemable point out that Iroh said, She’s crazy and needs to go down,” only after she had repeatedly tried to hunt him and Zuko down so she could bring them back to the Fire Nation for their treason, had attempted to kill Zuko with lightning, and had almost killed him with blue fire. Not to mention, Iroh had to dissuade Zuko from trying to show Azula compassion because, as long as she and Ozai where in power, there was no way they could convince her to change her path, and so to show her compassion, or attempt to reason with her, would end with him, Zuko, or the both of them dead or in chains.

And in regards to the comics, where he never visits her in the asylum to try and steer her down a better path now that she lost everything, including her power, and thus would be receptive to his teachings? Well, if Iroh was willing to retire to Ba Sing Se and leave the arduous task of reforming the Fire Nation after a hundred years of war and propaganda to his unprepared nephew, who he sees as a surrogate son, why would Iroh be inclined to try and help steer Azula down a better path? 

Especially when, as far as he knows, Azula is getting top-notch medical treatment for her mental illness(es)?

Not to mention, when Zuko was facing push back to take Azula on the search for Ursa, Iroh voiced his support for taking her, pointing out that it might help Azula find inner peace.

And besides, regardless of the above points, those who think Azula is redeemable point out that it would be highly hypocritical for Iroh deny the possibility of Azula reforming when it took Iroh suffering one of the harsh losses imaginable, the lost of a child, in combination with the White Lotus, who are made up of people victimized by Iroh’s actions, or inaction, as Crown Prince and as a general of the Fire Nation, for him to reform and redeem himself well into middle age.

Well, in my opinion, this debate is a moot one because the foundational assumption for both sides, that Iroh actually cared for Azula, at least at some point, is not actually true.

For the Legacy of the Fire Nation, which in-universe is a scrapbook Iroh wrote to share memories and mementos with Zuko, reveals that Iroh never gave up on Azula because he never gave her a chance in the first place, first, due to seeing her as an obstacle to Zuko getting Ozai's favor, and then, after his own redemption arc, an obstacle to Zuko becoming the savior of the Fire Nation that Iroh knew he could become.

In fact, he shows more sympathy and regret in regards to Ozai despite Ozai having decades to change his path as well as being Zuko, Ursa, and Azula's primary abuser.

And Iroh continues to have such negative views about Azula despite the fact that he begrudgingly admits that it took him decades to change his ways, that he only changed after his own son died despite killing countless Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom sons through his warmongering, and that he engaged in imperialism for the same reasons that Azula did: to make his father proud and because he thought it was his destiny.

And to make things worse, the TTRPG, which was created in collaboration with Avatar Studios, reveals that Iroh learned lightning redirection before Lu Ten’s death. So even if Azula was under Ozai's thrall, he could have stopped her abuse, as well as Zuko's in addition to ending the war sooner, by challenging Ozai to Agni Kai after returning from his wandering and killing him by baiting Ozai into shooting lightning and then redirecting it.

“But what about Iroh voicing support for Azula to go on the search for Ursa? That at least proves that Iroh has some care for Azula, right?”

Iroh’s support for Azula going on the search for Ursa could easily be explained by Iroh not wanting to go against the wishes of his beloved nephew, especially since he knows that Azula is the only one with relevant information in regards to Ursa’s location due to Azula burning all the letters in Ozai’s secret trunk save for the “Zuko is a bastard” letter, as well as him knowing that him vocalizing his true thoughts on Azula would make him look unwise and/or cause friction to arise between him and Zuko.

And besides, it is not like Iroh has ever lied to Zuko or others about his true opinions and allegiances before, especially when he, rightfully or wrongfully, thinks it is in everyone’s best interests for him to hide them, right?

“Why do you think that Iroh had a responsibility to challenge Ozai to an Agni Kai and kill him? For don’t you remember that Iroh said, in regards to Zuko asking him to fight Ozai during Sozin’s Comet, that he would not fight Ozai for the throne since history would just see it as two brothers trying to kill each other for power, and so it had to be the Avatar who defeated Ozai?"

My response to that argument is the famous phrase, “The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.”

If Iroh already had his heel-face turn and realized that the war was immoral, wouldn’t the morally righteous thing for him to do is end the war as soon as possible? Especially since he was the person best equipped to stop it considering, unlike the audience, no one in-universe knows when, if ever, the Avatar would return?

Besides, why should we care for Iroh’s opinion in regards to the ramifications of him fighting Ozai for the throne when he, after telling Zuko that he could not fight his own brother to death since history would view it negatively, in the same breath told Zuko to essentially fight his own sister to death for the throne?

So to conclude, why should people care about Iroh's opinion about Azula's (ir)redeemability? Especially when, if people applied his standards to him and Zuko, neither of them would have been able to redeem themselves?

#azula #iroh #zuko #ozai #atla #atla comics #the search #legacy of the fire nation #avatar legends rpg #iroh meta #iroh critical #iroh is not a flawless saint #justanotherthrowaway1950meta

[ask-ozai]

Did you know that Zuko's first act as firelord was banning Pai Sho and banishing every person who owned a board?

That explains why Iroh moved to Ba Sing Se.

Good for him. The most useless game in the world.

#Unlikely to be true since Zuko would prefer to get another scar before admitting Iroh isn't a saint but let me dream #ask ozai #Ozai #Zuko #Iroh #Atla #avatar the last airbender

[wingsfreedom]

I fear that the idea that "Iroh pushed Zuko to the right path" is given Iroh too much credit for something he barely attempted.

I only recall him very subtly teaching Zuko how elements are equal and important in their own ways in Bitter Work episode, but beyond that he barely said anything meaningful other than lauding Zuko without providing any good arguments to challenge his beliefs. (other than "who are you and what do you want?" But how Zuko supposed to know what Iroh, hopefully not, projecting on him? In Zuko's mind, he wants his honor, he wants his throne, he wants his father not to think he's worthless and told Iroh as much. This is why Zuko sided with Azula easily in BSS. There was no enough bulid up for Zuko to join the Gaang at that point and this is why the headwriter make Zuko go home first.)

The climax which Iroh's supposed teaching pushed Zuko to the other side is when Iroh revealed to Zuko about his heritage, that apparently the reason only Zuko and it has to be him to be the balance maker of their family (excluding Iroh himself too) is because of his connection to Roku, his great-grandfather, which is prophetical world view at best.

If that scene wasn't a manipulation on Iroh's part, he still shown to believe in "visions" and destiny, so his belief that Zuko would be the balance maker almost entirely based on his heritage is the kind of prophecy nonsense someone like him would believe, too bad it almost got Zuko killed in the Last Agni Kai if not for Azula's willful avoidance after she shot him. He certainly had better luck than Lu Ten, the other son who dead because of Iroh's (misinterpreted) vision.

#Iroh is poorly written #each time the narrative trying to sell him as Saint Uncle fell short #you only need not to worship him #zuko deserved better #iroh critical #atla #book 1 Iroh is his strongest writing

[pizzaboat]

If Azula had ever suggested someone track down and kill someone for vengeance because they have trauma around a parents death, when they were just talking about how Azula traumatised them, people would call it another example of Azula being a total psychopath

But when Zuko does it he's well intentioned and trying to be empathetic. Narrative framing does do a lot for these siblings...

My point isn't Zuko is a monster, or Azula never does messed up things and is a Saint, but like... why pretend that Zuko isn't as prone to equally messed up solutions as Azula?

Iroh saying Zuko has unquestionable honor is laughable

The only thing truly separating Azula and Zuko is the adults who gave them the most attention or lack there of growing up

#Azula #Zuko #azula deserved better #I don't give a shit about arguing with people lol #atla meta

[likeabxrdinflight]

I want to talk more about the way the characters have been adapted for the live action adaptation, because character writing is the thing I care about the most and as a psychologist it's probably the aspect of any story that I'm most invested in. I can get around pretty much any plot contrivance or weird maguffin or even shitty pacing if the characters of a story are engaging enough. This is my bread and butter, so to speak.

And I want to start with Iroh, because I think he is by far the best adapted character from the original. But I suspect I think this for different reasons than other people might, because the beloved Saint Iroh from the animated show this man is not.

See the thing with animated Iroh is that he's just...a bit too perfect. We know he's been complicit in the war in the past. We know he laid siege to Ba Sing Se, we know he had a complicated past. But we never really see it, we only barely hear about it, and more often than not there are other aspects of Iroh's past that serve to further deify him. He was a general in the war, but then he goes on to protect the last dragons and learn the true meaning of firebending. He led a 600-day siege and lost his son but he came out of that experience Enlightened, having journeyed to and from the spirit world. He joins up with the White Lotus (at some point) and becomes the wise old sage we know and love.

Except most of that is revealed in later seasons and is inconsistent with his actions alongside Zuko in season one. Season one animated Iroh is kind of a passive character, largely existing for comic relief and as a support to Zuko. But there's very little to suggest he's disloyal to the Fire Nation or their cause. He says it himself- "I'm no traitor, Zhao!" Now you can certainly interpret that line in several different ways, but I suppose that's the point- there's a lot left up to interpretation with animated Iroh. We get a sense of who he is in relation to Zuko, but his own development largely happens off-screen. And because to Zuko he's a wise, caring uncle and mentor, that's largely how we, the audience, see Iroh. We love him because Zuko loves him. And that's fine for what it is, and clearly it was effective- Uncle Iroh is almost universally beloved. But it does leave a lot of questions about him up in the air.

Live action Iroh is a very different character. This Iroh is a deeply broken man who was been profoundly impacted by the war and what he has lost because of it. I do not get the sense that the loss of Lu Ten has led to any spiritual enlightenment for this Iroh- there's no indication that he can see spirits, for example, or that he has ever traveled to the spirit world himself (he does still oppose the killing the moon thing, though.)

Right out the gate, we get the sense that this Iroh has lost faith in what the Fire Nation is trying to achieve with the war. He explains to Aang fairly early on what the Fire Nation's goal and perspective is, and can rattle off this dogma quite easily. But when questioned by Aang if these beliefs are also his beliefs, he dodges them rather un-deftly. So you know immediately that this Iroh doesn't really support the war. Later you see him somewhat bluntly telling Zuko that the throne may not be all it's cracked up to be, and he's fairly openly critical of Ozai in other moments. So you know from the jump that Iroh's not really on Team Fire Nation.

And yet this is also not a truly repentant man. When he is captured in Omashu, Iroh gets another brief scene with Aang while they are both imprisoned there (this is before Aang meets with Bumi). And in this scene, Aang tries to convince Iroh to help Zuko stop being The Bad Guy. And Iroh defends Zuko to Aang and stresses the point that it is not Zuko who owes him any great debt, but he who owes Zuko. Later, when he is confronted (and hit several times) by an Earth Kingdom soldier who lost his brother during the siege, Iroh does not apologize. He does not flinch at the man's accusations, nor does he deny them. He defends himself, albeit weakly, by stating he was a soldier, and it was a war. He has the audacity to accuse this soldier (somewhat obliquely) of having been made dishonorable by the effects of war. It's kinda messed up, honestly.

But then this man accuses Iroh of knowing nothing of loss. He leaves the shot, and we saw Iroh's face just crumble, and the scene cuts directly to Lu Ten's funeral, where Zuko chooses to sit with his uncle and support him through what must have been the darkest moment of his life. Back in the present, it is only later, after Zuko has come to rescue Iroh, that he speaks more honestly to the Earth Kingdom soldier- he shows mercy and states that they've all "seen enough death."

So what we have here is an Iroh who is deeply disenchanted by the war and does not support it or the goals of the Fire Nation, but who has continued to stand alongside Zuko and support him in his goals. We have a man who doesn't necessarily regret his actions as a soldier in the war but who very much does regret what those actions have cost. We see a man who is profoundly impacted by loss and grief and has become emotionally reliant on his nephew as a source of support. Not that he's parentifying Zuko or anything, he's very much not, but he is rather obviously channeling all the love he once felt for his son into Zuko instead. Zuko is his lifeline, he needs Zuko and you get the sense that without him, Iroh would truly fall apart. I mean the man is on the verge of tears more often than not when Zuko is in even the slightest bit of danger in a way that animated Iroh was not.

This is what I think is different here. Animated Iroh seemed to turn against the war because it was morally wrong, it had thrown the world out of balance, and imperialism is bad. Live action Iroh seems against the war because it wasn't worth it. It wasn't worth the cost, or the death, or the grief. He couldn't see that until he lost Lu Ten, but now he sees it everywhere. I get the sense that this Iroh just wants it all to stop, and I'm not sure he cares how that happens.

The White Lotus is definitely hinted at, but I suspect that was his motivation for joining it. It's not about restoring balance to the world for this Iroh. It's about restoring peace, so that he won't have to lose Zuko like he lost Lu Ten. So that the death and destruction stops. So he can just live a quiet life and put the past behind him.

It's a different take. And it's not that he doesn't still have a lot of wisdom to him, that he's not still a gentle, caring person. But he's a much sadder person, and he's lost that sense of "enlightenment" that his animated counterpart had. There's a selfishness you can read into to this version of his character that's much more apparent than the animated version.

I think a lot of people are gonna hate this, because it's a darker take on a much loved character. But I love it. This Iroh is human, this Iroh is flawed, and this Iroh has a lot more growing left to do. And that's awesome. If we get to actually see more of a character arc for him too, if we get to see him also growing and changing alongside Zuko? Please. It's not like he needs a total redemption arc, per se, but if in his journey with Zuko throughout the Earth Kingdom we can see Iroh gain some of his fortitude back, we can see when he decides he needs to push Zuko down a certain path, to take a side in the war, to see that it's not just the death and destruction that makes it wrong? God there's so much potential with that.

Now, maybe this isn't what will happen with seasons two and three. Maybe they'll back track and try to make him more similar to the animated version. I don't know. But for now? Live action Iroh is fantastic, and Paul Sun-Hyung Lee is giving a hell of a performance. He's warm and tender when he needs to be, fierce when he has to, and just profoundly sad throughout it all. And I love him so much more for that.

I'll be controversial here and say it. So far, live action Iroh is a better character than animated Iroh.

#I never disliked animated Iroh to be clear but perfect can be boring #this Iroh is not perfect and that is so much more interesting to me #natla spoilers #natla #iroh

[twocakesinacup]

Halloween costumes! Yes its early but I love the season, and I wanted to submit a few for @pansear-doodles costume contest. Congrats to all the winners! Survivor and Monk - Greg and Wirt (Over the Garden Wall) Hunter and Artificer - Spike Spiegel and Faye Valentine (Cowboy Beebop) Gourmand and Nightcat - Uncle Iroh (Avatar: The Last Airbender) and Vibri (Vib-Ribbon) Saint and Enot/Inv/??? - The Batter (OFF) and Freddy Fazbear (Five Nights at Freddy's) Looks to the Moon and Rivulet - Usagi (Sailor Moon) and Kaneda (Akira) No Significant Harassment and Five Pebbles - Sans (Undertale/Deltarune) and The Once-ler (The Lorax) Spearmaster and Seven Red Suns - Marty McFly and Doc Brown (Back to The Future)

#rain world #rainworld #rain world art #og art #rw hunter #rw rivulet #rw artificer #rw survivor #rw monk #rw gourmand #rw nightcat #rw no significant harassment #rw five pebbles #rw looks to the moon #rw saint #rw inv #rw enot #rw spearmaster #rw seven red suns

[sisididis]

Episode ‘The Avatar State’, also known as Uncle Iroh has the patience of a saint.

#this kid ugh! #i can see where he’s coming from but that doesn’t make it better #if only azula had had an uncle iroh figure in her life #ozai is the last person anyone would want to be jealous of #avatar the last airbender #prince zuko #atla zuko #uncle iroh #atla #i can't believe that i did not spot that typo before! TT

[akiizayoi4869]

just saw someone literally say "does iroh have canonical proof that he did war crimes? he's a high ranking fire nation general on top of being a former crown prince, so it's likely, but he's too honorable." in response to a meme

why are iroh fans so fucking dumb??? do you know what a siege is??? and the point of his character is that he had an offscreen redemption arc so ????

Some rando: Iroh didn't commit any war crimes! It's impossible because he is too honorable😌

Me:

Clearly, this person has no idea what a siege is. This man literally joked about burning Ba Sing Se to the ground. Laughed about it as if it was no big deal. But sure, he didn't do anything wrong!

And like you said, Anon, Iroh has an off-screen redemption arc. If he didn't do anything wrong during his time as a war general, then guess what? He wouldn't have needed to be redeemed.

#asks #anon #atla #iroh #iroh is not a saint #he did indeed commit war crimes #aki answers things

[chaoticly-shy-dragon]

so I am working - dragging my feet - through natla (1 episode left) and I thought I would share some of my thoughts and commentary:

Iroh: You must use your tact, your empathy-

Season 1 Zuko: [looks back at him]

*

Canon s1 ep3 Zuko: You... are working with Zhao. Willingly.

Show s1 ep3 Zuko: Yes? What's the problem? He is annoying but that's mostly it.

Canon!Zuko: UNCLE! DID YOU PUT SPIRIT MUSHROOMS IN MY TEA AGAIN?! I'M HAVING LUCID NIGHTMARES!!

Other random thoughts:

[Suki proceeds to defy gravity with her fan to impress Sokka]

Me, exasperation incarnate: Suki, I didn't know you were an airbender!

and

[Previous incarnation avatar bashing sesh]

Me: [...] But I love Zuko-Iroh interactions

[The one scene. Zuko is shouting how they can't just ask around. Iroh is offering advice until he gets distracted by street food.]

Me: The fact Zuko stood there for a few seconds trying to figure what this proverb means before he realizes its very much not a proverb - cackling

Second-hand long-suffering friend, who is at the end of her wits after hearing me talk about the butchering of Kyoshi's character for 20 minutes: XDDDD He legit thought rice had sth to do with it XD

there is more but it's more of

Oh no, he is hot.

And oh no he is also hot

Why is every extremist hot?!

Bumi is very bitter. Very.... Jaded.

Aang has no situational awareness: He did not just ask Zhao (Zuko too) to let him go so he can go save other enemies of the Fire Nation. He didn't.

Also. Why the firebender this, firebender that. Are the Fire Nation non-benders saints or something??

Mai casually says Ozai sucks for not thinking Azula is perfect <- Me: I mean she is absolutely right but she would not say that.

Azula's whole. Thing. I felt the narrative was trying very desperately to make her seem competent and clever but the fact that Iroh's thoughts insinuated the frontal attack on the Northern Water Tribe was her idea left me in stitches

But yeah. They nerfed Azula

Zuko - feral, bloodthirsty, a loser. <- Me: Oh my god they captured his essence! Minus the honor thing!

ZUKO NOT SAYING HONOR

THE TRAVESTY OF SOKKA NOT WEARING A DRESS

I WANT SOKKA IN KYOSHI WARRIOR UNIFORM

Katara not having any emotions ::: Aang walks all over her saying he can't support her in her fight against the patriarchy that is actually just Pakku and Yugoda or whatever was happening in the 7th episode: Katara doesn't blow up at him. Sokka calling her a little girl and never actually apologizing about the whole Jet accusation especially when he did the same with the Mechanist. : Katara doesn't blow up at him

Me: sounds fake but okay

At this point when Toph comes along Katara will let her not be a part of the Team (no Gaang just Team Avatar) and not contribute and not bond and NO FOUND FAMILY TROPE

Aang teaching Katara waterbending, Aang not goofing off, No Kataraang (not even a smidge) - something in me shriveled up and died.

Why is Azula soft??????

And why is Ty Lee assertive and forthcoming??? Just?? Why????

And finally, my second favorite:

Azula, trying very hard not to mention Zuko's ludicrous tenacity: Commander Zhao is a great asset... Maybe he needs better resources to showcase his true potential.

Zhao who barely passed his exams according to Jee the gossip queen: Yes, I do need the best resources. Give me all the 'sources.

#natla #natla spoilers #atla #atla live action #atla netflix #avatar the last airbender #aang #katara #zuko #sokka #suki #avatar kyoshi #azula #my shitty commentary

[zuko-always-lies]

Hey, as a long viewer of your anti iroh posts, which, as a person who just recently watched ATLA, I have a very controversial theory/headcanon based on my knowledge of general psychology (not a psychologist so disregard if incorrect) and perspective of Iroh's character and by the attitude of his fans that can possibly get me hate messages and even death threats. So I came to the conclusion that Iroh expresses an uncomfortable character of NPD or particularly a certain "sub" that you will, being Benevolent/Vulnerable Narcissim.

Iroh loves to present himself as "wise, kind and fatherly," but his actions showcase the total opposite, and his supposed identity appears far more shallow and self-centred. He never properly mentors or shows to really know Zuko. Instead, he simply uses Zuko to serve as his act of penance, which is why he never meaningfully teaches Zuko to become a better person or to realise that his father is at fault and that his sister is not his real enemy. But no, instead, he lays off to do the bare minimum. He shows less to no remorse for Zuko's predicament that was caused by him for not standing up to his brother when he was banished. Nor does Iroh show any for Zuko's victims. Instead, Iroh operates under the mindset that supporting Zuko and making him Firelord will accomplish his penance. His lack of care for Azula is precisely because she is an obstacle not just for Zuko but for his "penance" as well.

It's also interesting the lack of self-awareness that Iroh has. He calls Azula crazy for doing what he did for decades. The only difference is that Azula genuinely cares for her nation while Iroh doesn't really care except his glory. He sent his son to the front lines to fight his own battles for him, which isn't that different from Ozai's treatment of Azula and Zuko. Oh, and at the finale, what does he do? Send Zuko and Katara into danger while abandoning them to satisfy his selfish desire. Of course, as you mentioned, he also doesn't live up to his own "wisdom" instead using that wisdom to appear smart and confuse others. Because in all honesty, Zuko NEVER applies any of Iroh's suppose wisdom because Iroh doesn't ever think to teach BLUNTLY to Zuko, like any basic teacher can look at Iroh and already have their hands in their face, but of course the further issue is that instead of applying basic healthy logic, Iroh instead utilises the toxic sibling rivalry to manipulate Zuko into becoming his "perfect" son. Zuko becomes a better person despite Iroh not because of him, Zuko's "metamorphosis" (aka breakdown) is the best example of how unhealthy Iroh's parenting is.

Iroh is also shameless when it comes to his mistakes. He never feels guilt or apologises to June for his blatant sexual harassment. He has no shame for being friends with the Rough Rhinos or assisting Zhao in the further conquest and bloodshed of the Northen Water Tribe. He never thinks or comes clean with his crimes against the Earth Kingdom, instead choosing to profit off the very same people he victimised. He never apologises to Zuko for being a shitty mentor/Uncle.

Iroh reminds me of ALOT of narcissistic so called "benevolent" or "vulnerable" people who will appear kind and even express self hatred but only for further validation and without taking risks or responsibility whatsoever for their mistakes, instead blaming others or doing "good" little things to create a narrative that they are "saints" and that people who disagree or despise them are "crazy or evil".

This might be far-fetched, but when you consider that to this day, the majority of ATLA fans have been juiced in this narrative that Iroh = 50 year old warmonger is a Saint who should be worshipped and that Zuko should be "thankful and grateful" of said Iroh, and that Azula = 14 year old abused child soldier who did the least messed up things and is the youngest member is demonised for being "crazy" and even Aang gets treated inferior to Iroh, well it already feels right at home with typical narcissistic narratives

I've had similar thoughts myself, but I really don't like applying medical diagnoses to fictional characters living in a very different society, so I never quite articulated them. Certainly Iroh seems to be an extraordinarily self-centered person who puts major effort into pretending not be so self-centered.

#anti Iroh #anti-Iroh

[serialadoptersbracket]

Round 3 Polls:

(Projected length: 8 days)

Day 1:

1. Bruce Wayne vs. Pascal

2. The Doctor vs. Daenerys Targaryen

3. Inspector Barnes vs. August

4. Cale Henituse vs. Simon Petrikov

Day 2:

5. Keishin Ukai vs. Yami Sukehiro

6. Gintoki Sakata vs. Maglor

7. Kim Dokja vs. Izumi Curtis

8. Roy Mustang vs. Rune Saint John

Day 3:

9. Shōta Aizawa vs. Guts

10. Jean Valjean vs. The Fix

11. Soundwave vs. Kanan Jarrus and Hera Syndulla

12. Agent Washington vs. Grace

Day 4:

13. David Wymack vs. Dadan

14. Bobby Nash vs. Korosensei

15. Wen Kexing and Zhou Zishu vs. Jack Starbright

16. Satoru Gojo vs. Xie Lian

Day 5:

17. Eda Clawthorne vs. Sakyo Furuichi

18. Herlock Sholmes vs. Dracule Mihawk

19. Artemy Burakh vs. Kazuma Kiryu

20. Master Wu vs. Izumi Tachibana

Day 6:

21. Optimus Prime vs. Sarah Jane Smith

22. Bell-Mere vs. Cap’n Craig Cuttlefish

23. Camilla Noceda vs. Professor Hershel Layton

24. Giovanni Potage vs. Miles Edgeworth

Day 7:

25. Phoenix Wright vs. Dalinar Kholin

26. King Dedede and Meta Knight vs. Jawbone O’Shaughnessey

27. Bruno Bucciarati vs. Abigail Pent and Magnus Quinn

28. Toriel vs. Pongo and Perdita

Day 8:

29. Whitebeard vs. Lance Strongbow

30. Roronoa Zoro vs. Jody Mills

31. Sojiro Sakura vs. Kurogane and Fai D’Flourite

32. Iroh vs. Splinter

#serial adopters bracket #round 3 #tumblr polls #tumblr tournament #poll bracket #character bracket #fandom bracket #it’s getting good y’all #I am NOT looking forward to day 3 tho

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Iroh Should Have Taken the Throne After the War, Not Zuko

On the surface, Zuko becoming Fire Lord seems like the cherry on top for his happy ending. 

For him and Mai, who thankfully survived committing treason on Zuko’s behalf, are now able to rebuild their relationship on healthier grounds now that they are no longer under the yoke of Ozai’s regime, he has gained true friends in the form of the Gaang, he finally realized that Iroh was his true father all along and managed to rebuild his relationship with him, his abusive father and toxic at best sister are locked up and unable to hurt him or the ones he loves ever again, he atoned for the most part for helping Azula take over Ba Sing Se, and is now posed to help his nation redeem themselves like he did in regards to himself.

However, if you dig deeper, you start to realize that Zuko’s happy ending is not so happy after all. For he has no blood family that doesn’t hate him and isn’t rightfully locked up except for Iroh, who decided to spend his retirement in Ba Sing Se as a tea maker thousands of miles away from Zuko, and thus is hard to reach in a timely fashion.

The Gaang may be his friends, but they also have their own lives, responsibilities, and families, and so they won’t be able to stay in the Fire Nation for long outside of diplomatic meetings. 

Not to mention the fact that they can never again be just friends like the couple of weeks they spent together fighting to end the war, for Zuko is no longer just their friend, but also Fire Lord of the reforming Fire Nation as well.

And with Ty Lee, until the Kyoshi Warriors become his bodyguards, moving to Kyoshi Island so she can be a Kyoshi Warrior, the only person who he trusts who is constantly in his life is Mai, who loves him dearly, but is ill-equipped to help Zuko deal with his emotional struggles as he continues to heal from his upbringing, let alone the political struggles Zuko will encounter as he attempts to de-Sozinfiy the Fire Nation.

Especially since Mai is a 15 year old teenager who also needs to continue healing from her upbringing and has no relevant experience when it comes to governing.

LIke if we are being honest, Zuko never really had a chance to figure out what truly made him happy. 

For instead of getting time and space to figure out what he wants to be now that the war is over and he is free from Ozai, Zuko instead has to be Fire Lord at least until his heir is of age since Iroh said that it was Zuko who had to the take throne, with Zuko obliging due to wanting to please his real father his sense of honor and responsibility.

All this even though he was only crown prince for two years and the couple of weeks he was in the Fire Nation after his banishment was lifted, which does not bode well for someone trying to reform a nation that has waged an immoral war of conquest for over a hundred years and is so heavily steeped in propaganda to the point that the average person considers airbending demonic.

Hence, why I think the show should have ended with Iroh taking the throne with Zuko as his heir instead of what ended up transpiring.

That way, not only can Zuko continue his crown prince education, an education that was almost certainly interrupted by his banishment, but also so that Zuko has the space to heal and grow without the burden of guiding and reforming the post-war Fire Nation weighing him down. 

Especially since guiding the Fire Nation through the early steps of de-Sozinization would be a struggle for even an experienced monarch, let alone a 16/17 year old with no real experience in governing.

This is because Zuko has no experience, as far as we know, dealing with court politics or running the administrative state of an industrial superpower. 

Zuko has no real connection with his people despite his banishment forcing him to interact with and empathize with Earth Kingdom commoners. Thus, it is hard to see how Zuko can craft policies to help de-Sozinize them, let alone gain their support for such policies outside of the implicit threat of the Avatar. 

Whereas Iroh, despite also being a traitor, was once a beloved war general, and so he can use his status, even if it is heavily diminished by his actions during the end of the war, to get people to buy into his de-Sozinzation policies.

Though I admit that Iroh, like Zuko, has no real connection with Fire Nation commoners.

And Zuko would likely struggle to determine what type of relationship, if any, he would like to have with Ozai and/or Azula after everything that has transpired. And if he chooses to try to interact with them, he is likely to get manipulated like he did in the comics. 

But if he doesn't have the throne, at least the consequences of such manipulation would only be limited to his personal life, and not have dire consequences like what happened with Yu Dao or the lingering threat that an escaped Azula presents in canon to the post-war order.

Not to mention, I think Zuko not getting the throne because he isn't ready for it would send a good message of how just because Zuko redeemed himself doesn't mean that he is now perfect, and thus doesn't need to further heal and grow, as well as avoid giving Zuko the thing he wanted at the start of the show. 

For Zuko in the start of the show wanted the throne for validation, and while after betraying Ozai he never expected it until he met with Iroh in the White Lotus encampment, he ultimately ends up getting what he wanted all along. But if he didn't get the throne, at least for the time being, I think it would better show that Zuko has moved past the throne being (external) validation, as well as strengthen his claim that he didn't betray Ozai for the throne, at least in-universe. 

This is because even though we the audience know that the Zuko betrayed Ozai's regime due to being horrified by Ozai's plan to genocide the Earth Kingdom, the general population doesn't. 

And so it is likely to appear to them, or at least a significant proportion of the Fire Nation population, that Zuko betrayed his father, sister, and nation in order to get the throne he knew he would never get due to not being his father's favorite, even if it meant becoming the Avatar's puppet.

Also, while it is true that the other members of the Gaang all play active roles in the post-war order despite being pre-teens or teenagers themselves, none of them are formerly engaged in politics or ruling outside of Aang, who is the Avatar, and thus sadly can’t delegate his responsibilities to an adult until he is emotionally and mentally ready, a burden that the show and comics took great pains to highlight as tragic.

And while it is true that there have been world leaders who have had successful reigns despite taking power as a pre-teen or teenager, the closest to those rulers in ATLA is Azula, who showcases, among other things, what tends to happen more often than not when you put too much pressure on children to rule, and is a prima facie case for why Iroh, and not Zuko, should have taken the throne at the end of the war.

“Ok, ok, you have some good points, but don’t you remember how Iroh all but said during Sozin’s Comet that he could not take the throne, or even confront Ozai in the case that Aang was missing, since no one trusts him in a position of power except for the White Lotus and the Gaang? So even if Iroh is the most qualified man for the throne, he was right to not take it since the sight of the Dragon of the West on the throne is liable to cause people in the Water Tribes and Earth Kingdom to start another war, or at least launch terrorist attacks, to get him off it.”

Iroh’s point about how no one outside of the White Lotus and the Gaang trusts him in a position of power after decades of war mongering makes sense on the surface, but when you dig deeper, it makes no sense at all.

For Iroh, despite refusing the mantle of Fire Lord, is still in a position of great power: Grand Lotus of the White Lotus, a secret, world-spanning, information gathering organization that is made up of some of the most powerful leaders and benders in the world. 

An organization that not only mobilized within a few short weeks to reconquer Ba Sing Se during Sozin’s Comet, but also became Avatar’s version of UN Peacekeepers under Iroh’s leadership.

(Legacy of the Fire Nation all but says the White Lotus starts taking a more active role in the world while Iroh is still an active Grand Lotus. In fact, Xai Bau starts the Red Lotus in response to this change, with Iroh not only being aware of the Red Lotus’ existence, but also not understanding why taking a more active role is a betrayal of the White Lotus’ anarchist roots.)

Like outside the Avatars and other world leaders, Iroh is one of the most powerful people in the world. And yet, despite operating a tea shop in Ba Sing Se under his real name post-war, there is never indication that people attack him for assuming such a position of power, let alone for his past.

Not to mention, Iroh at times becomes interim Fire Lord for weeks on end with actual power (ex. Iroh created National Tea Appreciation Day when he was interim Fire Lord during the search for Ursa), and even at times actively plays a role in international affairs, like when he stood in for Zuko during Yu Dao’s inauguration ceremony. And yet, as far as canon is concerned, there is nary a peep from anyone outside of the Fire Nation.

Therefore, Iroh’s excuse that seeing the Dragon of the West in a position of power to influence world affairs again, let alone on the Fire Lord’s throne, is liable to send the rest of the world into a frenzy doesn’t hold up when scrutinized.

So to conclude, Zuko was not emotionally or mentally ready to assume the Fire Lord mantle by the end of the show since his crown prince education was basically non-existent and he still needs to continue growing as a person. Especially since attempting to reform the Fire Nation after the Hundred Year War is a task that even the most experienced and savvy leaders would find challenging.

However, Iroh does have the relevant training and emotional and mental maturity to help guide the Fire Nation during the early post-war years. And even on the surface the world may not stand for him on the throne, considering they are more than fine with him being a Grand Lotus of the White Lotus, or serving as interim Fire Lord, the world, in my opinion, would be more than fine with Iroh on the throne. 

Especially if he makes it clear that he would abdicate once Zuko’s crown prince training is complete and he is emotionally and mentally ready to take the throne.

So the fact that Iroh did not take the throne after the war is quite odd and does not reflect well on someone who is supposed to be wise and loves his surrogate son more than anything in the world.

For if Iroh was truly wise and loved Zuko as much as he, along with the narrative, says he does, why would he abandon his “son” to the metaphorical wolves?

#iroh #zuko #fire nation #water tribes #earth kingdom #atla #atla comics #legacy of the fire nation #iroh meta #zuko meta #fire nation meta #water tribes meta #earth kingdom meta #iroh critical #zuko is not done growing #iroh is not a flawless saint #justanotherthrowaway1950meta