#probably the only person JL approves of

[volucerrubidus]

note

Post-Mortem Notes II Accepting

Tim Drake did not want to die, nor did he plan on dying. But in the event that he did, he had written letters to his loved ones, which were sent in accordance with his will. 

This one is meant for Kon-El.

Kon,

Jesus. How do I even start this? 

If you’re reading this, it means I passed recently. But that sounds stupid, doesn’t it? Knowing me, I didn’t pass, so much as I probably got killed. 

Was it heroic? I hope so. It would kinda suck if I was done in by something lame. 

Think you could do me a favor? Even if it was lame, will you pretend like it wasn’t? I think I’ll rest easier knowing that the hero of heroes thought I did something that made me worthy of his approval. 

Because you are a hero, Kon-El. You’re the best of us all, and I mean that. 

I know you probably don’t feel like it because if I’m dead, then you’re probably blaming yourself for not stopping it. I hope you don’t, or, that you find a way to stop feeling like that. If I went out because of this life, then I know I don’t regret it, and never will. And that’s not your fault. My death is not your fault. Never will be, never was in the first place.

But, hey, remember when you told me something similar? How you didn’t regret dying because you know you went out like Kal did? 

I get that. Dying like you… It would feel pretty darn cool, huh? I bet it did.

Well. Maybe to me. To you, it can’t be easy, and for that, I’m sorry. 

I didn’t want to leave you, believe me. I didn’t want to die, contrary to what this letter might suggest. This is just… a contingency. 

And hey, we once fought about that, remember that, too? On Apokolips. You were worried I had the same contingencies for you guys that Bruce had for the JL. 

I was being truthful when I said I didn’t. I didn’t and I never did. Not even after Lex got his greedy little billionaire hands on your mind– sorry to bring that up, by the way– not even then, did I think that it was a good idea to make a contingency for you.

I trusted you to the end, Kon-El. Know that. I trusted you to the end, just like you trusted me. 

I mean, I guess I don’t know for sure if you trusted me up until the end, but it feels like a good guess, right? You’re the only person whose faith in me has never wavered, Kon, not even a little.

I still think about how you believed me about Bruce. You were the only one– and I mean that– the only one who did. It meant the world.

You meant the world to me, Kon-El.

I know I sucked at showing it. I really sucked at showing it. But you did. Still do, even here in whatever comes after.

Oh, you probably know what comes after right? This is my first time, so do you have any advice? 

…I’m gonna pretend you said something super cool and smart, here– and probably witty, too. I bet it would have made me roll my eyes, even as I tried to resist a grin. 

Sorry, I know you weren’t always a fan of my hiding my smiles from you. I tried to stop doing that, I swear. It was… It was just scary. 

I was scared, Kon. What if one day you saw me smile and then you saw what that smile had in it, and you realized how I felt for you? I couldn’t risk my best friendship in the entire world over a crush. So sometimes I had to make my face stay all neutral or something, so that you couldn’t figure it out. I don’t know what I would have done if you had.

I still don’t know. I mean, I’m telling you now, because you have a right to know. 

I’m scared it’ll mess up everything post-mortem, though. Will you hate me in death because I loved you in life? I promise that not every encounter we had was touched by my crush. I cherished our friendship more than I can ever find the words to say. 

Our friendship was everything to me, Kon. I promise. 

Please don’t think of me as weird, now. If you like, you can ignore the parts where I talk about liking you romantically. I won’t be mad.

I mean, I’m dead, so what can I do about it now, you know?

Sorry if this is a lot to take in right after my death, by the way. Ideally, this should be delivered two weeks after. Enough for the shock to fade, hopefully, so that you don’t get crazy overwhelmed. 

I’m not sure if that’s enough time for that, to be honest, though. I swear it felt like months before I even hit the denial stage for you. 

Either way, I hope this is still a comfort nonetheless. That’s what it’s meant to be. I don’t want to make it hurt worse, though I know it might. 

This is meant to be like… I dunno. One last hug. One last hand hold. One last laugh. 

I’ve been aiming for humor in some of this, that is. I dunno if it worked. We had very different senses of humor, so maybe I’m really missing the mark, here. 

I feel like I missed the mark a lot with you. As much as I hit it, too. You and I kinda stood at odds a lot, I feel like.

On the bright side, I also feel like it was one of the things that brought us closer together. I dunno what I did for you, but I know what you did for me. 

Whenever it was hard to believe in the things I believed in… whenever it was hard to see a point to this giant, messy, endless fight… whenever the shadows pulled me too far under, or clouded my judgment, or made me a jerk (sorry)... you were there. You were a bright spot in my life, Kon-El. You were the sunshine and the brightness and the joy. You were the reason I laughed, the reason I smiled, the reason I didn’t succumb to despair or exhaustion or unease. You were the reason I made it through this life as far as I did. You did that, Kon-El. And you do it for so many of us. 

You’re a gift to this world, Kon. Don’t you dare ever forget that. You’re incredible, and you deserve so much better than you got. You deserve everything you could possibly want out of life, and then some. And I sincerely hope you’ll go after it, someday. I know you won’t, but I hope someday you’ll be selfish. That you’ll go and get what you want, and you’ll hold onto it tight, and you’ll know that you deserve to have it, and more.

I hope you’ll realize one day that you’re worthy of everything good and beautiful in this world not just because you’re Superboy, but because you’re a person, with a soul. A heroic, bold, sweet, kind, incredible soul, as big as your giant, giant heart. 

Thanks for saving me a place in that heart, by the way. Again, your friendship was something so precious to me. So special. Just like you were, to me.

I’m sorry I ever thought I could somehow clone that. I’m sorry I went a little crazy after you died.

Not to overstate my own importance, but just in case I should say it: please don’t go crazy because of my death. It’s not worth it. I’ve been there, and it’s not. 

I hope you move on, Kon, I really do. I hope you find another team to love and cherish, and I hope you hang on to our best friends, and don’t ever let them go. I hope you aren’t sad forever about me. That would suck, because you were always the reason I was a less sad person, a less sad piece of our world. You don’t deserve to be dragged down forever just because I seem to be a little too good at spreading that sadness. 

Sorry, I think I’m dipping into bat angst again, aren’t I?

I promise I don’t think that awfully about myself. (Again, thanks to you). I just… I really don’t want you to be sad for me. I know that’s a really big ask, but please, for me, try to keep seeking happiness and peace for yourself. 

I don’t mean that you should, like, be only happy all the time ever. That’s really not healthy. Please grieve however you need, however works best for you. Don’t ignore it, either. Grieve–

And then let me go. 

Maybe don’t forget about me, though. That might suck, to be honest– but maybe it wouldn’t, too, because I’m pretty sure that would give me full haunting rights. So don’t forget me, or I’ll so go Paranormal Activity on you. Your favorite mug? I will break it, Kon. I won’t even feel bad. 

In all seriousness, though, I really mean it when I say that you should grieve, and then let me go. Grief is a terrible thing; it’s so hard and cruel, and it sucks the life out of you as much as the person you’re grieving. So just… hang in there for me, okay? Get through the suck, and then you can get to the good. 

(There has got to be an innuendo there. I bet you already found it, faster than I did. I bet you’d say it, and I’d be unable to hide a laugh this time). 

God… You’re gonna have to forgive me now, because I’m running out of stuff to say. I don’t know what else to tell you... except that I love you, Kon-El. 

I love you, and I’m glad I knew you. I love you, and I’m glad you let me be a part of your life. I love you, and I hope you love me, too, whatever form of love that might be. 

I love you, Kon-El. Be good. Be safe. Live long. I’ll wait for you on the other side, as long as it takes– and it better take long. You better soak up every moment of your second life. You deserve a full one this time.

Okay. My last request: Imagine me hugging you one last time. And then go hug our friends. Tell them you love them, as much as I love you, Clone Boy.

I love you.

Forever your Robin, Tim.

#[ : ) ] #{answered asks} #tw: death #supermantm #{all things soft and bright and beautiful - timkon}

[crossdressingdeath]

I follow a lot of people that are fans of JC and ship him with LXC and these last few days they don't stop talking about how Lan Qiren would LOVE to have JC as a nephew in law. But I just don't understand why they think LQR would be happy about it, while I have no doubt that Lan Qiren would prefer JC over WWX (LQR would prefer ANYONE over WWX) I still can't see LQR being super happy and supportive but everyone seems so sure of his approval that I don't know if it's just me who can't see it.

Here’s the thing, though. I don’t think LQR would prefer JC over WWX. Like, let’s think about this for a moment. WWX is a troublemaker, sure, but he’s also super loving and affectionate towards LWJ, incredibly loyal to his family and friends, does his best to defend the weak, and is an incredibly valuable asset to the sect. JC is a dick to literally everyone, has a history of abandoning even his own family to avoid inconvenience, has a reputation for being so awful to the people under his protection that they won’t go to him for help unless people have died, and has zero actual skills. And even outside of actual personality LXC and JC marrying would create a massive succession crisis in two sects, one of which was already in a succession crisis for Literally No One Will Marry This Guy reasons; that aspect is entirely absent in LWJ and WWX’s marriage. I think people sometimes tend to oversimplify LQR’s dislike of WWX; he hates him, sure, but it doesn’t automatically follow that LQR would ignore all the benefits of WWX being part of the Lan sect or like someone with very little going for him beyond Being Rich better just because he’s not WWX. LQR hates WWX for his troublemaking, but I can’t see the man who ran a sect that he wasn’t supposed to have to run and raised children who weren’t his because his brother decided to lock himself in a room for probably close to 20 years at the least viewing someone like JC, who betrayed his brother and is a huge dick to his nephew to the point where JL repeatedly runs away from him, with anything more positive than complete and utter disdain. I’d expect his reaction to be closer to “That one?! At least Wei Wuxian is good to his family!” and quite possibly genuine concern that LXC is only doing this to punish himself for what happened with JGY before anything approaching approval.

#mdzs #cql #lan qiren #grapehate #the ship that must not be named #anon #asks

[onelastbreath-writes]

On Bruce And Texting:

Author’s Note: Hello and welcome, this is my first properly written fic, originally posted to my AO3, and now that I have finally created a writing blog, it’s here as well. Please enjoy!!  AO3.  Masterlist

Warnings: Hopefully none, its all cute and fluff <3

Summary: Bruce Wayne texts like he's sending correspondences to the Queen, so of course the little monsters he calls children just have to make fun of him! Brats, the lot of them, but he wouldn't have them any other way.

Features: Bruce Wayne/Selina Kyle, all the bats and birds, mentions JL, no crime fighting, only family fluff, jokes and nods to Millennial and GenZ shenanigans.

Word Count: 2.7k

---

Billionaire, genius, tech expert, father of many children, and all around up-to-date-with-just-about-everything type of person he may be, it is also a well-known Fact that Bruce Wayne, the Batman(TM) himself, can’t text to save his life.

Whether it’s due to his Very Proper English Upbringing, his inability to be informal via written correspondences of any type, his indifference, or the fact that it bothers his children so much, Bruce Wayne has not and never will text with anything less than perfect grammar, spelling, and formality. If he has not sent you a proper letter (featuring a dedication, indentation for every paragraph, signature, and post-script when applicable), he did, in fact, not send you that text. Informality is not his Batman Way(TM) according to his children... he’s not too sure what that even means, but it makes his young ones laugh so it’s probably fine?  

His oldest children (Richard and Jason) were raised in the time of Change, where computers, internet access, social media, and all things similar were only just being introduced into households en-masse. They were young enough to remember a time without such devices and connectivity (both for very different reasons, of course, but they grew up without the newest technology none-the-less). They could understand his relationship to the digital environment more so than his younger children, but they still tended to poke fun at his ‘texting blunders’ regularly. All his kids somehow ended up as brats. He doesn’t know how this happened. It’s certainly not his fault. He blames the League members, and especially Clark Kent, for their defiant personalities. 

His younger children, whom he loves dearly, like to confuse him as much as they possibly can with their slang, egregious spelling errors, and all-around ‘internet humour’. He doesn’t know what ‘wig’ or ‘worm’ or ‘oof’ or anything means. He has no idea what those dances are, or how they relate to the music that seems to always accompany them, and for the love of all that is good, don’t ask him what he thinks of this or that ‘meme’. What even is a ‘meme’, and should he be more concerned about his kids being obsessed with them? He tries, oh my god, does he try to follow the children’s conversations, but they somehow all learned a language he has no idea how to decrypt. His best response to them once they start speaking in tongues is as follows: smile but not too much, listen to child even though he is deeply confused, and pat child on head or shoulder when they are finished and are looking for assurance.  

He refuses to be a parent who ignores or tunes out his children, so he always makes sure to put down his work, his crossword, his tools, or whatever else is in his hands when a child searches him out for a conversation. But somehow, despite all the time he spends around them and their strange words, when he gets text from them comprised of abbreviations, acronyms, and completely random words, he goes a little cross eyed. He would never tell anyone, but he keeps a running list on his phone about the things they say that he has had to translate in the past. Spilling tea? Speaking the truth, usually to do with gossip. Wow? Multiple possible meanings: either a video game, or someone saying it (different pronunciation depending on context and who sent the text). Stickbug? A nice little prank with no ulterior motives, just for fun. Something along the lines of “this basic bitch Karen at the grocery store who is a dirty rat-licker and is def an anti-vaxxer just took 45 (forty-five) minutes to decide she didn’t actually want that almond milk. I Stan the cashier who had to put up with her. Rad af dude.” roughly translates to “A rude, middle-aged white woman who wasn’t wearing a mask and doesn’t believe in disease control or vaccinating her children wasted a great deal of an essential worker’s time in the checkout line. The cashier was very professional in their dealings with said customer and should be commended on their actions.”  

Given enough time, the internet for searching up new slang words, and occasionally some help from a friend (Alfred, Selina, Lucius, another of his children, etc), Bruce could decode and respond appropriately to most texts. He was quite proud of these achievements, and although he didn’t always like how often his children were on their phones or computers or gaming systems, he was quite proud of how integrated and easily they adapted to the ever-evolving world of electronics. All his kids were gifted in many ways, but their ability to learn, their hunger for knowledge, and their perseverance when exploring new and challenging ideas were always the things that he was most impressed by.  

He could do without their comments though. Yes, surprisingly, he did manage to get girlfriends with his type of texting. No, he doesn’t miss the ‘good old days’ when telegraphs were the main form of long-distance correspondence (how old do these brats think he is?!). And yes, he does know what a “tweet” is, and how to “post” on his social media accounts, and what “sliding into your DMs” is (thanks to a frantic search after a WE employee mentioned it near him). The Wayne children, truly whom and what Bruce considers his pride and joy, are cruel little jerks to him sometimes. His hoard of parenting books fails to mention what one should do when their children gang up on them. Bullying is covered of course, but he can’t really talk to a teacher or his guardian about how his second son calls him an idiot sandwich, or that his third son regularly tries to get him to do something “For The Vine”. His oldest and youngest boys are only slightly better in the bullying him department; Richard and his puppy dog eyes when he wants to do something dangerous or not-Alfred-approved, and Damian and his growing collection of pets because “Mother never let me have them, and I am deprived, and don’t you love me Father?”.  

His only good child is his beautiful daughter Cassandra, the flower of the Wayne clan. She gives him hugs, and pats his hands, and can sit with him and just enjoy the quiet and stillness when his other children are not around. Her language skills are improving by leaps and bounds every day, and her heart and spirit are unparalleled, but her main method of communication is in her movements. Her hands, her posture, her dancing; Bruce couldn’t think of a more graceful, fluid, powerful person if the world depended on it. His amazing little girl doesn't bully him (and if she ever does, he probably deserves it, he trusts her), so he turns to her most of all when it comes to communicating with someone else. She doesn’t let him send anything that is “sketchy” or “wrong words, bad meaning, Dad”. He would give the world to his children, but for Cassandra, he would destroy it and build her an entirely new one.

Social media, especially with his terrible children all having accounts dedicated to making him look like a simpleton, was another rocky terrain he had to navigate on the regular. He had professionals in place at WE to run the company’s many accounts, paid top dollar to help appeal and relate to the masses, but he mostly had to manage his personal accounts himself. And so, @TheRealBruceWayne was one of the greatest struggles in his adult life. Why can’t he just retweet every post from @WE_Offical and leave it at that? People should only want to know about what’s new with the company. What do you mean they want to know more about our family and private lives? That’s unnecessary, and not important to the running of the company, right? Right? Why are you laughing?!

Luckily, most people in his life aren’t so intimately aware of his struggles. He can act and lie all he wants about being “hip” and “woke” and whatever else the kids are saying these days when he’s with the JL or in board meeting intermissions, networking with his associates. The Batman knows all and sees all, Green Lantern, of course he understands how “Tiktok” works. The Batman is a robot without a funny bone in his body, Green Arrow, but I did witness him sigh and say “same” when he knocked his cup of coffee over while on monitor duty once. No matter how badly his darling children call him out, the Justice League would be so much worse. So, it’s one of his most importantly guarded secrets... even more so than his secret identity at this point. Being unmasked in front of every Gotham rogue would be less detrimental to him than his “friends” learning of his utter ineptitude in staying on top of the younger generations’ lingo.  

When questioned why the League doesn’t have a group chat or a forum or anything that they can use to contact each other outside of world ending matters and communicator (”because we’re friends, Batman! Ma and Pa Kent would love to have everyone over for a barbecue!”), the person who dared even mention texting isn’t even given a verbal response. They are just glared at, silently, often for several uninterrupted minutes, frozen in place only able to breathe shallowly in fear of setting off the Bat. “You know why” his glare says, “I’ll eat you, your family, and everything you have ever held dear” the younger members hear. No one makes the mistake of asking about it twice.  

Outside of his children and Alfred, and his small circle of true friends involved in all aspects of his life, there is only one more person Bruce allows to know of his Darkest Secret. Selina. Someone most people would recommend he not be involved with. Catwoman: accomplished thief, distraction, chaos-incarnate most nights, and his significant other. Sharp as a whip (ha) and crafty like no one’s business; he is head-over-heels. On again/Off again and all over the place their long romance has been, but no one has ever challenged him, intrigued him, like this clever, beautiful, amazing woman has. He’s brought his partners around his children before, both for their judgement, and for their worst behaviours to vet out any “unworthy” suitors. He trusts them explicitly to tell him the truth about those he allows into the manor; were they rude about Bruce wanting to have group outings, did they say something about Bruce’s money, did they get angry or shout or make anyone uncomfortable while they were here? If his children even looked slightly unhappy with someone he brought them to meet, that person would not be invited back. Children, he finds, have the best sight when meeting people; no motives other than finding safety and love, no fear of consequences from speaking honestly...  

Selina, or Catwoman, as they had known her first, was someone all of his kids liked without issue right off the bat. She would make puns and play word games with Richard, his first Robin, tiny, still working on his English, able to connect with him over their acrobatic abilities. His second Robin, Jason, skittish and feisty as an alley cat, knew of Catwoman and her daring escapades long before Bruce found him. The young boy had a few heroes, and no one (not even Wonder Woman) could compare to the incredible burglar who bought food and jackets and medicine for the street kids in Crime Alley. She was saintly in his eyes, and to this day, Bruce was still working on convincing Jason he was good enough for Selina. Tim and Cass and Stephanie (basically another daughter to Bruce, she spends so much time with the family) all joined the Wayne clan around the same time and officially met Selina as a friend and partner of his, and in the good graces of his first two sons. Selina, in all her nightly business, and many travels and acquaintances, had met the three independently, helping Tim get home safely back to Drake Manor when he escaped to photograph Batman and Robin in the dank darkness of Gotham when he was just a young boy, spending some time with Cassandra when her despicable father left her alone long enough to recover from his rough treatment, showing her the first scraps of kindness in her short life, and watching over and protecting Stephanie as she followed and sabotaged her father Cluemaster and his criminal activities. There was no need to win them over once they met her civilian identity, she had already gained their favour and acceptance, and they were happy to have her near their new family. Damian, his youngest, his biological son, took the longest to warm up to Selina. He would never fault his little boy for fighting so hard against a woman that was not his birth mother, especially after all the manipulation and cruelty dealt to him by Talia for the first decade of his life. But as he began to learn about his father, these people in his father’s life, and this woman that was Not His Mother but “still okay, I guess”, he grew to see her as acceptable. Her cats definitely helped, he’d say, no one with cats that loyal and happy can be a bad person.  

Selina, the love of his life, he’d admit quietly to himself, was also a dirty traitor and in cahoots with his terrible children. She would say his texting skills were “sweet” and “very gentlemanly” when she was asked by anyone outside the family, and privately to him she would say she thought they were “adorable” and “please don’t ever change, Bruce, I like it.” However, nothing seemed to bring her more joy than his children sending her texts and “Snaps” and “memes” about him to her. Sometimes it was screenshots of the family group chat that they forced him to join, where he would post “To whom it may concern...” and “In regards to...” when he needed to reach all his delinquents in a timely manner. Sometimes it was video clips of him staring at his phone intently, then typing something on his laptop, then him reading and nodding along, and then finally going back and responding to the text he received with a small, pleased smile. And sometimes, when he got too injured or was too incapacitated to text coherently, he’d have his nearest able child transcribe his text to her. Depending on who was texting her for Bruce, she could expect many different things. From Dick, she’d get lots of shorthand and silly emojis, and many, many, winky and crying/laughing faces in brackets depending on what Bruce had made him type. Jason, bless him, used proper English most of the time, but would never write a single word of Bruce’s soliloquy to her, instead she enjoyed the TL;DR version: “hurt again, missing you, come home soon, blah blah blah, sappy gross words here, love you”. Tim would allow speech recognition to run on Bruce’s phone, and just let it go until the man passed out. Stephanie, the little chaos child, would film it and send it to her, including all her muffled laughter and shaky camera shots of Bruce emoting with his available undamaged limbs. Cass, still more versed in physicality and emotive movement, would interpret Bruce’s text into mostly emojis, hearts and happy faces and animals, but would include photos, and phrases that she found important enough to type out for Selina. Damian, forever his Father’s son in any way possible, texts very formally, referring to her or his siblings Bruce mentions by last name only, and lots of “Father requests me to tell you...” and “Kyle, know that Father...”. She adores these kids, and once Bruce recovers enough to text her himself, or she gets back to the Manor, they get to laugh about whatever she was sent this time.  

So, while it’s true that Bruce couldn’t text his way out of a wet paper bag, and his kids are sometimes brats about it, there’s probably a lot of different reasons he doesn’t spend too much time trying to improve his skills. Whether it’s the smiles of his children, the giggles of his significant other, or the warm feeling in his chest when he sees all his important people bonding over him, well, in the end, who’s to say?

#batman #batfam #bruce/selina #batcat #bruce wayne #selina kyle #bruce x selina

[dilfdoctordoom]

What do the JL think of Bette? Specifically Barry, Hal, Clark, Arthur, Ollie, and Diana

I very much love that you included two of my favourite characters here.

Barry:

Bette spent many of her formative years in Gotham, so you can bet your ass that this girl is ACAB

Now, I don’t know if you’ve been called a bastard by a thirteen-year-old in a red dress, but Barry Allen has

Life-altering experience

He spends an hour asking Bruce what he did wrong, why does Bat-Girl hate him? He hasn’t even spoken to her yet what could he have done

And Bruce just... the fun explanation that she hates all cops. Instantly. Oh you’re a CSI that must be fun, it doesn’t matter, it’s already on sight for you

Like, okay, in Gotham? Pretty much every cop is dirty. Gordon, Montoya & Bullock are the only ones that Bette knows aren’t & she still doesn’t really trust them

So she’s not gonna be particularly nice to Barry Allen & Bruce literally has to tell her to behave

(Kathy is very amused by it all)

There’s a moment where Barry thinks she just hates speedsters, but then she & Wally seem to be getting on great. Like, Kid Flash is awesome, cool fast guy. Flash is a cop & therefore she cannot trust him

Bat-Girl: I can respect you as a hero but I do not like you as a person

So, yeah, Barry’s, uh, iffy on her. He’s sure she’s a great hero & she seems nice to the others, but he’d really rather not work with her, even when she’s Flamebird/Hawkfire. Especially when she’s Flamebird/Hawkfire, then she’s got tasers & flamethrowers

Hal:

Very different from how she interacts with Barry

Mainly because she first meets Hal after Kathy’s died & she goes to Coast City as part of her whole ‘run away from her emotions’ thing

She’s always loved the beach & Coast is supposed to be so nice. Plus, they’ve got Green Lantern; they’re not gonna need her to suit up, are they?

And then there’s an incident with Manhunters & like, Hal’s got this handled, no doubt about it, but also, Bette is impulsive & has a massive hero complex & yes she does suit up & help out. She does it because it’s right, because she’s angry, just because

But Hal kinda freaks out? Because she’s a kid and yeah, that might fly in Gotham where Batman can keep an eye on her, but oh god, what if he was fighting Sinestro? That’s low key terrifying to him, he doesn’t wanna put a kid in danger

He’s still good with kids. Like, that’s canon, he’s just good with them. So he & Bette do get along & after he gets over the initial ‘please do not fight mass murdering robots you need adult supervision & idk if I qualify for that’, they do actually spend time together!

Mainly because Hal isn’t too comfortable letting a teenage vigilante who just experienced a massive lost be alone & honestly? He’s right. Like, Kathy has just died & Bette threw herself into an extremely dangerous fight... red flags all around, my dudes

So they do work together while she’s in Coast. She only stays a few weeks before she moves on, but she does kinda like Green Lantern?

And the feeling’s mutual. They don’t really keep in contact but Hal keeps an eye on the news to make sure she’s okay & not, uh, dead

They don’t actually meet face to face until a dumb Justice League party years later & then they discover that Bruce finds Hal annoying... he finds the concept of Bette & Hal even being acquaintances annoying... he’s given them the ultimate weapon. Bruce Wayne goes grey earlier and it’s because Hal & Bette spend an entire night pretending that they went on a massive space adventure, full of danger & peril, solely to drive up his blood pressure

Hal doesn’t look into her identity all that much, but thinks she’s fun. Anyone who annoys Bruce for fun is cool in his book

(And I know this is supposed to focus on his feelings about her but consider: Bette meets the Green Lantern of Coast City & he lets her stay in his shitty rundown apartment. Everything that can go wrong for him seems to, but he’s still there, making jokes and saving people and doing the right thing. His willpower keeps him going, even on the darkest of nights and maybe, just maybe, Bette’s stubbornness picked up a little bit of inspiration for somebody along the way)

(And maybe, maybe, she joins the fight against Parallax and realizes just how far her heroes can fall)

Clark:

Um, well, I absolutely headcanon that Clark gave Bette the name Flamebird. Like, told her the story, made a series of not-so-subtle mentions that she should take up the name...

So, yes, Clark knows Bette

She’s Bruce’s cousin, after all, and he’s his best friend. Of course, their paths would cross, especially with how often Clark seemed to work with Batman & Robin when they first started out

He’s worked with her a lot when she’s Bat-Girl & every single time, Bette is starstruck because oh my god, that’s Superman, she’s talking to Superman, she’s working with Superman

He tells her the legend of Nightwing & Flamebird when she’s a kid & she loves the concept of Flamebird. She’s only twelve at the time, but something about it clicks with her

And when she gives up on being Bat-Girl, but is still determined to be a hero, he suggests Flamebird

(Bette absolutely tears up at this)

They don’t really work together when she gets older, except on big, world ending disasters that require the entire Justice League’s attention, but he still sends her one of Ma Kent’s apple pies for the holidays

Clark’s just the cool uncle from when was younger

She stills freaks out a little every time he talks to her, though

She’s never gonna get over knowing Superman

Arthur:

It took me a while to think about this but, yes, Arthur likes Bette

Mainly because Bette is a friend of La’gaan’s. That’s pretty much how he knows her

He doesn’t even know she’s a part of the Batfamily for years, because she’s always seen with the Titans

So, like, he doesn’t really know her that much, but she’s a good friend to one of his sidekicks & La’gaan’s already made passing mentions to crashing at her & Gar’s place, so. Yeah. She got Aquaman’s seal of approval

Though Arthur is always gonna be entertained by how much teasing Flamebird is allowed to get away with. Most of the League may not be aware of her Special Cousin Privilages, he isn’t either, but it’s absolutely hilarious to see her tear into Batman at random

11/10, good friend to La’gaan, very entertaining. Would be better if she could keep a goldfish alive

Ollie:

Okay, so, Ollie is, like, shown to be nicer to the younger heroes, Kyle excluded because he’s dating his son, so she’s gonna be nice to her. Or, at least, Ollie nice. Hm.

He thinks she’s way too small when she first starts out because even when she’s eleven, Bette still looks like she’s nine, but she’s got two heroes looking out for her & with a kid sidekick of his own, he’s not in a place to judge

Aside from one poor team-up between Green Arrow & Speedy and Batwoman & Bat-Girl, where Ollie & Kathy absolutely butted heads, oh my god, they’d hate each other, he didn’t see much of her. He works in Star, she works in Gotham, when are their paths gonna cross

While she works less with most Leaguers the older she gets, she actually ends up working more with Ollie when she’s older

Mainly ‘cause she’s friends with Roy & Cass may be friends with Connor, but that doesn’t mean she can drive so sometimes she’ll get Bette to bring her to Star

Which is honestly what Ollie knows her most as: Batgirl’s older sister who’ll lend a hand whenever she’s in Star

She’s good with kids, efficient & a little showy, but he really can’t judge that last part. Got Roy & Dinah’s stamp of approval, though, & that goes a long way with him

They never, like, exclusively work together, but she’s good to call on in an emergency

He did do a double take when she called Deathstroke ‘uncle’ though because... well, look, at Flamebird. Now look at Deathstroke. Do you see his confusion? It only grows when Slade lets out the most exasperated sigh, mutters something about how he wishes he could kill her without Addie getting mad, and then Bette sticks her tongue out to him & makes some joke about the shitshow he married into

Well. At least his family will never involve Deathstroke

Diana:

Diana gave Bette the shovel talk

This is when DonnaBette is happening & close to figuring out each other’s identities & probably the biggest hint for Bette is Wonder Woman flying down to tell her that if she breaks Wonder Girl’s heart, she’ll have her to answer to

So. Diana’s first impression of Bette is Flamebird having an anerysm on a rooftop in Gotham because she just realized she’s dating Wonder Girl

The absolute dumbassary of DonnaBette, unparalled

Diana likes Bette, thinks she’s probably a great person, but it is her legal job as Donna’s big sister to make it clear that if anything happens to her baby sister, it means war

They end up meeting later, after Donna & Bette have had their mutual break-up, when Diana is working with Kate & Bette is still unable to form a full sentence. Wonder Woman oh my god, oh my god, her brain doesn’t work that’s actual literal Wonder Woman oh my go-

Bruce did later let it slip that after the Maxwell Lord incident, Bette was 100% on Wonder Woman’s side, which she honestly didn’t expect, but eh. Bette’s not as big on the whole no killing as her cousin

Diana mainly knows Bette in the capacity of her being Donna’s girlfriend

Definitely prefers her to some of Donna’s other partners ie Terry because I don’t csre what anyone says, that relationship was trash & I will not pretend that miss Diana Prince was okay with her nineteen-year-old sister dating a divorcee in his thirties that was also her professor

#bette kane #q & a #this is bad but it took me forever so idc

[kmp78]

Do we think that CL approves of VK? I mean I'm sure that Mama Leto doesn't dislike Val but idk sometimes it feels like she only tries to get along with her for Jared's sake. What do you think, K?

I think CL knows her son's type, and even tho she may not have much in common with VK or may not invite her future-daughter-in-law for girlie brunches or shopping trips etc., I don't think she has anything against VK personally.

I guess like any good mother, if she sees that her son is happy with his chosen partner, she can live with the situation. 🤷🏼‍♀️

And also considering that JL has had VERY FEW legitimate girlfriends over the years, meaning women who he has dated seriously enough to introduce to his mom, I'd say CL no doubt knows this one is not just a meaningless fling.

We know CL met CD and was/is good friends with her. She perhaps also met Scar-Jo as she and JL did date for quite some time, and perhaps also Katty Damm.

AK is also quite probable.

But that's about it.

Those are all his known long(er)term girlfriends from the past 20 years.

Obvs he would have never introduced his skanks and groupies or even his "regular/semi-regular but ultimately meaningless fuckbuddies" to his mom.

But VK joined that elusive group of women who have been graced by an introduction to Mother.

That's BIG. 😛

[lee-luca]

Hi! I read your ZhuiYi fic and had been wondering what LWJ and LQR's thoughts of past!ZhuiLing and ZhuiYi's marriage. Cuz both of them know alot more bout LJY compared to JL. And despite his breaking rules tendencies, LJY is trying hard to uphold GusuLan rules and motto and never stabbed WWX. Bonus that he's so alike to WWX in personality (Godbless LQR's blood pressure). WWX was a bit biased since JL is shijie's son so I won't ask about him, but I think he prioritize LSZ's family happiness now

LWJ is that chill parent who will respect their children’s decisions as long as they don’t hurt other people or land themselves in jail. Privately, Lan romantic that he is, it hurt him to see SiZhui marry someone he didn’t love at the time, but nobody involved technically did anything wrong (except get drunk, but LWJ really doesn’t have a leg to stand on here) since LSZ/JL had already broken up and LWJ can definitely empathise with LJY’s alcohol-and-pining-induced irrationality. And since LSZ decided to marry LJY, all LWJ hoped was that LSZ could find it in himself to love LJY eventually.

(This is really long—more under the cut)

I think, prior to the whole drunken mess, LWJ had already accepted JL as his future son-in-law (I doubt he really holds the stabbing against JL). But while he does feel sorry for JL when LSZ married LJY, it is like you said, he knows LJY well enough (and more importantly likes him well enough) not to make a fuss. He dealt with the sudden change of sons-in-law stoically, like he deals with everything else. And when it became clear that LSZ had finally chosen to commit himself fully to the marriage, LWJ didn’t have any misgivings—only gratefulness that everything worked out in the end for LSZ and LJY (because god LJY reminded him so much of himself).

(Having WWX v2 in his family probably doesn’t hurt either. If anything, LJY is like another son—a mix of WWX’s vivacious personality and LWJ’s Lan features.)

Depending on whether you HC that LJY is LQR’s grandson/nephew (biologically or adopted by LXC, as the Chinese fandom sometimes likes to think) or not, LQR’s reaction might be different (although either way he’d be appropriately disappointed in both LSZ and LJY).

If LJY is related to LQR, LQR would’ve spent 5000 years lecturing LJY on his lack of discipline (“WHAT HAVE I TOLD YOU ABOUT ALCOHOL???”) and then spent the next 5000 years sitting with LJY while he cries about how much he dreads the upcoming loveless marriage. At this point LQR probably also thought of LSZ as his grandson too but LJY took priority since LSZ had WWX and LWJ and LJY had only him. To be frank, LQR probably didn’t care about JL much because his duty is to his family first and foremost, and all he knew was that LJY was hurting. He’d been distantly approving of LSZ dating the mildly bratty JL (because look, after QingHeng-Jun and WWX, LQR has no standards at all), but I doubt he spent enough time with JL to be personally invested in LSZ/JL’s relationship.

If LJY isn’t LQR’s grandson/nephew, then LQR’s thoughts would be framed more in terms of “right” and “wrong”, though he’d lean towards LSZ just because LSZ is LWJ’s son. That both LSZ and LJY drank: against the rules. That LSZ and LJY slept with someone who wasn’t their partner: even more against the rules, and definitely LJY’s fault for taking advantage of LSZ at a time when he was vulnerable. That LSZ wanted to take responsibility: dutiful.

Either way, since LQR is a man of duty and obligation at heart, while he approved of LSZ taking responsibility, he definitely disapproved of the way LSZ was distant during the first year of the marriage despite LSZ being the one to insist on getting married. A marriage is supposed to be a union—if LSZ couldn’t commit to it, he shouldn’t have married LJY in the first place. After all, having suffered heavy losses during the sunshot campaign, the Cloud Recesses is no stranger to children with missing parents. They have a system for single parents.

Also, in the fic, because LSZ is the one training to be the next sect leader (even though realistically it’s probably gonna be a biological Lan like LJY 😅) and JL is from a different sect, LQR might actually be relieved that LSZ married LJY since that meant that there would be no sect-related conflict of interest with LSZ’s cultivation partner haha

#oh wow this got rambly #kurogamishiro-clan #ask #Better Late Than Never #as you can tell i have a lot of zhuiyi feels #and a surprising amount of lqr feels lol #BLTN

[bluboothalassophile]

Bonds & Falling

Here’s the thing to know about Dick Grayson: He knew what falling in love felt like. He knew the passions and safety of love, he knew the wild hurricane which sucked one’s soul out and meshed itself with another’s soul. He knew how it felt to hand his heart, lock and key, to another and trust them to not shatter it.   He had felt that all-encompassing love, dragging him under the surface, and it was fierce, alive, endless, boundless, unyielding, it was demanding, it was vital, alive, it was like the ocean dancing with the moon; every subtle and constant.

But it wasn’t HIM who was in love!

Not even he who was falling in love! Dick was in love, with Barbara Gordon, he had been for years, it was a constant. This stirring… it had taken him a while to lock it down, to pin it down, to realize to whom it belonged to, because he frequently forgot about this bond.

Raven was falling in love, head over heels in love, and looking at her he could see how no one would see it. His ever-apathetic demon friend was forever indifferent to the attentions of the male portion of the population. Though this could be because of her dismal dating life, he knew that the dating scene for Raven had been on some pretty terrible dates; at least that was the rumors he had from Donna and Kori.

And Dick had compiled a list of guys he knew Rave wasn’t in love with; mostly because with that empathy link between them he could feel when she was happy, sad and calm, and he had taken a while to pin down the emotion of love but he knew when she was with whoever it was. Dick didn’t know who she was in love with, but he knew who she wasn’t in love with; and that was pretty much everyone in the JL, Titans, Young Justice, and college associates (he had kind of stalked her at school just to check and he had felt nothing).

Now he sat in the Batcave glaring at the screen before him as he eliminated the obvious candidates.

“Yo Dickhead, have you seen Timbo?” Jason’s voice called out rousing Dick out of his focus as he looked over at his younger brother dismounting his motorcycle.

“Hey Jay! Maybe you could help me out!” Dick grinned as he got up and physically dragged his larger baby brother to the Batcomputer, before shoving him in the chair. “Sit there!”

“I’m not into kinky incestuous office sex Dickie!” Jason stated.

“Oh shut up and help me out!”

“Gollie, normally a guy would buy me dinner and schmooze me rather than giving me the shaft immediately,” Jason said dryly. His voice was venomously dripping with sarcasm but Dick didn’t care.

“I have a serious investigation going on here, little wing, focus!” Dick snapped.

“More serious than my child smuggling operation?”

“Well… maybe,” Dick said. “Rae’s in love.”

“Rae?”

“My friend Raven, from the Titans.”

“Okay… so?” Jason asked.

“Well, I’m trying to figure out with who!” Dick stated. “She gets all happy and safe whenever she’s with this person and I cannot figure out who she’s with!” Dick said.

“You’re on your own, Dickhead, I have work,” Jason said pushing himself up. Dick shoved him back into the chair, sending it rolling.

“Well, I wanted to ask you, cause you and she have a lot of similar natures, if you were in a secret relationship how would you hide it!?” Dick demanded.

“Dude!”

“What!? It’s not like you are, I mean, that’d require you to be selfless and in a committed relationship, also to stop ogling Supergirl and Power Girl, not to mention you’d have to stop meeting up with Rose at that dive for pool,” Dick said.

“I will have you know that Rose is very good at the corner pocket shot,” Jason defended. “Dick, did you ever think that maybe, it wasn’t any of your business?”

“I just… Rae’s family and she was there for me at a point in my life when I didn’t have anyone,” Dick said.

Jason gave him a bland look, unimpressed too, and Dick sighed.

“Forget it, I don’t expect you to get what it’s like to be in love or to put someone before yourself.”

His little brother had a dangerous flash of emotions in his eyes which pulsed brilliant green before he pushed himself up to his full height then.

“You’re right Dick, how could I possibly know how to love someone, everyone I have ever loved has betrayed me or killed me,” Jason said dryly. “And you know what, if I were Raven, I wouldn’t tell you because it’s not your fucking business. Not everything on this planet revolves around Dick Golden Child Grayson and her private life is for her to share when and if she’s ready!” Jason snapped.

“Well at least she’s not dating you!” Dick grounded out angrily.

“You’re right, you caught your culprit who makes your friend Raven insanely happy and loved, I’m obviously in a secret relationship with her and we don’t tell you because we know you’d disapprove.”

“Victor would never allow you to date his baby sister!” Dick stated.

“You’re right, now I’m leaving and talking to Tim, and only Tim, shove your investigation up your ass Dick!” Jason spat out as he stalked out.

Dick snorted at the mere idea of Raven even dating Jason because Jason was too emotionally volatile to be around the empath. No doubt it would be like living in a hurricane for Raven if she had to deal with Jason. However, that had brought him to another idea which had him grabbing his communicator to contact Victor Stone; a.k.a. Raven’s self-proclaimed older brother.

No way Vic had missed his little sister falling in love, even if Raven hid it well. Dick would get to the bottom of this!

He really just wanted to make sure his friend was safe and truly loved in return for as deeply as her love ran.

~~~*~*~*~~~

Victor Stone sat in a grungy dive bar in Boston, near his apartment and University, far enough away that he could just hide if he was wearing the image inducer and enjoy a beer alone. But this time he was waiting for Dick to get his ass over here.

Dick had called him yesterday, babbling about Raven being in love and worried about her heart. Vic’s first thought was ‘oh shit! They’ve been ousted!’ his second thought was to see how much his friend had learned.

Raven shared an empathy bond with Dick, Victor knew that, it was a link between their psyches which made them a great team, but not always the best at being open with one another. Raven managed to keep that bond between herself and Dick mostly closed, or dormant. Which had salvaged hers’ and Dick’s friendship, but Raven also suffered from the whiplash of Dick Grayson’s emotions without filters some days. So, theoretically, even with their bond shut, he could guess that the deeper, more powerful emotions slipped through Raven’s defenses to make their bond a two way street. And Victor had no doubts Dick had felt some of the whiplash of Raven falling in love; just looking at his baby sister he knew she was in love; even if she didn’t express it outwardly. It was all in the looks she gave Jason.

But even more important, Victor didn’t need an empathy bond to see that Jason Todd was head over heels, ride or die, to hell and back in love with Raven and nothing was going to change that.

Dick walked into the bar rousing Vic from his private musings as his friend walked over to him.

“Vic!” Dick smiled.

“Hey man!” he got up as he clasped his friend’s hand and pulled him in for a hard hug. “You made it sound pretty urgent on the phone, what’s up?”

“Rae’s in love,” Dick stated.

“You said,” he said as he held up his hand for two beers to the tender.

“Yeah, but with who?” Dick asked.

There was a rush of relief in Victor knowing that his sister and Jason hadn’t been ousted; yet, then an overwhelming sense of dread at the thought of them being uncovered before they were ready.

“I don’t know,” Victor lied. He felt bad about the lie; he did, but he loved Raven far more than he cared about the Bats, and Raven and Jason wanted their relationship private.

“Well, I asked Jay about it, because, you know, they’re both secretive by nature,” Dick shrugged.

“Sure,” Vic nodded. He would be surprised if Jason hadn’t lashed out and sarcastically stated he and Raven were in a relationship; Dick had probably dismissed that out of hand on Jason’s attitude. Victor was very well aware of his sister’s idiotic boyfriend’s abrasive personality.

“I just… do you have any idea who she’s falling in love with?” Dick said.

“Nope,” he answered. Truthfully ‘falling in love’ was a cliché where Jason and Raven were concerned; at least when he saw them together. Falling insinuated a crash landing could happen; but with them he didn’t see it. They were more magnetic, a push and pull; like the ocean and the moon, or water and fire; it was unpredictable and them. They weren’t going to fall apart or break the other’s heart any time soon. “But I think whoever she’s falling for is right under our noses,” he mused.

“I don’t get why she wouldn’t just tell me, or talk to me,” he sighed.

“Cause maybe she knows you won’t approve,” Vic offered.

“Oh come on, I would support her! She’s my best friend; she’s like my little sister.”

“Really? You’d approve?” he asked.

“Yeah, I mean, it’s not like she’s dating Jason or something,” Dick shrugged.

“What makes you think it can’t be Jason or something!?” Victor snapped. He happened to approve of Jason. Jason treated his baby sis like she was a queen, even when they were at each other’s throats Jason went out of his way to make sure she was safe and content. Also, the guy was a complete gentleman with his sister; getting doors and chairs for her, keeping his hand on the small of her back when they walked, and listening to her. Victor approved of Jason being his sister’s boyfriend. Even better, Jason made Raven smile and live a little. Also, Jason would sooner self-castrate himself whilst carving out his heart than cheat on Rae or betray her trust. Victor approved of Jason on many levels, for many reasons, but mainly because Jason respected Raven, as a person, and not as the all-powerful demoness who could tear reality asunder on a whim. Jason loved his little sister, adored the ground she walked upon, and would go to hell and back for her. There was nothing wrong with Raven dating Jason; especially after some of the sleaze she had dated before Jason.

“You’d seriously approve of disrespectful, foul mouth, temperamental Jason dating Raven?” Dick asked skeptically.

“Look, I don’t approve of Rae dating anyone who makes her hurt for the fun of hurting her,” Victor stated. “I had that talk with Gar, he got the message. And when she’s ready for us to know that she’s dating, then she’ll tell us and bring the guy around.” Just cause she ain’t telling you brother doesn’t mean I don’t know, Victor thought dryly. Jason had actually come to his door, cooked him breakfast to ask permission to date Raven after that kiss.

“I just… I want to make sure, you know.”

“You have that empathy bond, you can feel if she’s happy or not,” he shrugged.

“Yeah, but feeling isn’t the same as seeing.”

“I’d leave it until she’s ready to tell you, and I have class, so I’ll see you later.” Victor pulled some money out and left it on the bar before walking out the door.

He’d call and check in to make sure Jason was alright; after that talk with Dick Vic kind of wanted to thump his friend up the back side of the head.

#bluboothalassophile #fanfic #one shot #robrae week 2019 #dick grayson #victor stone #jason todd #jayrae #redrae #raex #calm in the storm

[always-a-knight]

@angel-fxced

Oh no, would you look at that? Angie left their collar dangling off of the TV stand, it was probably not intentional since the spider was rambling about something and complaining about that particular piece of accessories getting caught in their hair. It was left before asking Ramon and JL to play some medieval adventure game to bond since it was popular up top and see if it was worth any of their times not to mention give them further bonding time and offering up going to buy cakes for the playthrough-- but, they didn't mention that the collar had a camera in it.

That's right here to capture a true shared gamer moment.

Being completely unaware that this father-son activity being filmed, the boys sat beside each other on the couch and started the game. The chubby Hellhound lad possessed plenty of experience with video games, yet his adoptive father only ever played simple button-mashers. As it turned out, the game was Elder Scrolls: Skyrim---because it was the 11th anniversary of its debut. Perhaps Angel thought the old man could more easily immerse himself into that game, as opposed to a first-person shooter.

After adjusting the settings for his knightly pop, the hound pup began a new campaign. Once the two had reached the character creation screen, the dialogue between them had picked-up.

"Ah, so it is a fantasy tale," Ramon clarified the moment his son looked at the Khajiit race.

"Look, Pa! I can make him look like Mr. Husker!" Jean-Luc declared, changing the character features accordingly.

"You have captured him perfectly," Ramon chuckled. Jean then did a masterful impression of the Hotel's resident grumpy cat barkeep.

"GRUMBLE, GRUMBLE, GRUMBLE! I'M HUSK! I HATE PEOPLE! I LOVE GROWN-UP JUICE! GLUG, GLUG, GLUG!" Jean managed to mimic before losing all composure and falling into a severe fit of giggles.

"You even managed his voice!" Ramon laughed along, nearly shedding a tear himself.

However, all of this was merely a jest and once the two had finished mocking the man, they thought it was in poor taste to actually devote a character to Husker. Making a similar recreation of Pentious was briefly considered with the Argonian race, but it ended the same---after even louder, more raucous laughter. Finally, the two became serious about a character to create.

"Hey Pa?" Jean inquired. "Why don't we make the hero look like you?"

Though silent on the video-feed, the invisible audience could tell that this warmed the old knight's withered heart and touched him so deeply. As the lad waited for his knightly guardian's approval, his stubby tail wagged in anticipation. But soon enough, Ramon accepted the offer and the two collaborated to recreate the crusader. It was a handsome Breton male with long raven-black hair and devilishly handsome features.

And so the actual game began with its iconic yet highly memed cutscene. Jean had taken his little paws off the controller to watch as Ramon listened intently to the dialogue. The old man didn't seem to enjoy the prospect of his Skyrim-sona being a captured vagabond being carted-off to jail, but the behavior of the Imperial legionnaires quickly changed his opinion.

"Execution for mere trespassing?" Ramon asked.

"Those are the bad guys, I think," Jean speculated---and was proven correct when the first prisoner was beheaded.

"Oh, no!" Jean shouted, truly shocked. Ramon would definitely have some words with Angel about this graphic violence.

"Be strong, boy," Ramon spoke softly as he gripped his lad's shoulder. "The man died with honor. Should we escape this, we must honor his memory."

But before the executioner could swing his axe down, a dragon roared from above and began to set the Imperial outpost aflame. Ramon thought this was very convenient, but kept watching. Each time the dragon passed dangerously close to the character, both boys jumped in their seats. Eventually, they would follow a fellow prisoner into an ancient crypt beneath the outpost to make their escape.

"Oooh, spoooky..." Jean commented. Again, Ramon thought this was very convenient. But upon entering the next chamber of the crypt, a sarcophagus opened and a Draugr warrior emerged to attack. Jean was still learning the controls and had some difficulty with the combat. However, his pa was a veteran and knew just what to do.

"When he raises his axe high over his head, raise your shield too," Ramon instructed. "Now strike him while he is off-balance."

Jean obediently listened to his father and quickly learned the ropes of combat, slaying the skeletal viking. Proud of his lad, the old knight patted Jean on the back and said so himself. But in this touching moment, more Draugr emerged. Both man and boy jumped out of their seats and enthusiastically fought back in pantomime.

Soon enough, they escaped the crypt and as they breathed the fresh alpine air, the dragon was nowhere to be seen. They had successfully cheated death. Their next objective would see them cross the wilderness and reenter civilization at the town of Windhelm.

So ends the first chapter of Ray's Skyrim Shenanigans...

#angel-fxced #Little Beast

[fishfingersandjellybabies]

JL is waging a seemingly endless war on all fronts and Dick is at the heart of an enemy base where he can end it but he'd die too. And he would totally go through with it to protect his family. He doesn't listen to his comms and everyone pleading him to come back. Then Damian catches up to him and Dick is so mad, yells at him to get out. He can't sacrifice himself for Dick again. Damian is "Yes I can." and Dİck is like "do you have any idea what losing you again would do to me?" But Damian is-

unshaken. He walks forward and reveals the Lasso of Truth wrapped around his arm all the way up to elbow. "I can and would die for you a thousand times, Dick Grayson. You are the most important person on earth to me." And just the fact Damian would bare himself to the invasive truthiness of lasso for him is enough to knock Dick out of his doom-y mindset, nevermind the speech. So they take out the enemy together and they both make home alive where Dami thanks proud aunt Diana for her assistance.

Well, Damian being Damian it'd be more like "I can and would Die for you a thousand times, Dick Grayson. You are the most important person on earth to me. But I want to live with you you GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS AND BACK INTO THE GAME BECAUSE WE HAVE SO MUCH ASS TO KICK AND I MANAGED TO SNEAK MY SWORD THROUGH FATHER FOR ONCE!" Overdoes the truth. Dick unhelpfully points out Bruce probably let him bring his sword altho he couldn't give verbal approval for stabby flaying before the entire JL

Listen. Listen listen listen. Damian and Dick being furious and fighting with each other because of how much they LOVE each other is my favorite kind of angst. Especially Dick being near tears, and Damian being defiant and self-sacrificing.

And after they kick butt and are running out, Dick just scoops him up, and holds the back of his head as they get to safety. Damian totally squirms and is like ‘I can walk on my own feet Grayson.’ But Dick knows that there’s always that chance Damian will run back in alone, and he’s not leaving without him, no way. So if this is the only way the both make it out, then so be it. 

Dick is hardpressed to put Damian down even after they get home, though, and scoops his little kiddo up every chance he gets. 

#dick grayson #Damian Wayne #also batfam headcanons #anon #asks

[tessatechaitea]

Aquaman #1

In 1994, Aquaman was reduced to playing at State Fairs with only 1/3 of his original band.

It's as if the cover artist was only told that Aquaman would have long hair in this series three minutes before the cover was due. Or maybe Aquaman's insane hair is simply there to distract from whatever the fuck is going on with his legs. I know he loses a hand in this series but I didn't know he started off missing his left leg below the terribly misshapen thigh. Don't look so shocked that I own an Aquaman comic book! Think of it more as owning a Peter David comic book. And even Peter David couldn't keep me reading Aquaman because I only have two issues of this series. Cue King Beauregard linking to Ookla the Mok's song, "Arthur Curry," in the Disqus comment section. It's seems crazy to me that Aquaman has the worst costume of any major DC hero and yet he doesn't wear his underwear on the outside. Think about how unappealing the 1986 camouflage Aquaman suit must have been if editorial decided to go back to this orange and green eyesore? If I had been editing this comic book in 1994, I would have put this copy on the cover: "This isn't your father's Aquaman! This Aquaman is your father!" How did "long hair on an old guy with a full beard" translate into "Aquaman is super cool now, kids!"? I probably should just put this comic book back in its protective casing rather than read it since it's one of the few comic books I own that might be worth something. It's definitely in mint condition (or near mint since, you know, I breathed on it), probably because I never actually read it. I don't know for sure that I read it but it is an Aquaman comic book so Vegas is giving pretty shitty odds on my having read it. Unless I mean good odds? Which odds are good and which odds are bad? I would say shitty odds are things like winning one dollar for every five dollars bet. But that just means the odds of winning are good so that probably means they're good odds, right? So maybe read the opposite of what I wrote in that Vegas odds sentence.

"They" have never had a wet dream, apparently.

That previous caption might sound like I've eaten my own semen while having a wet dream but I totally didn't. That previous sentence might sound like I'm protesting too much but I don't know what that means and, anyway, you tasted your semen during your wet dream! Aquaman hopes he's dreaming but he can feel and taste and smell and remember and read, so he's pretty sure he's about to die. The way I know I'm dreaming is that when a dream becomes increasingly uncomfortable or horrific, I often think, "You know what? I bet this is just a dream!" And then I wake up. Which is totally a mistake! I need to train my brain to stop waking up once I realize I'm dreaming and start taking control of the dream. Although I'm not sure how enjoyable a dream would be if I were consciously in control of it. Then it's not a realy dream anymore and it just becomes an IMAX daydream. The great thing about dreams is that they're surprising. It's the only way a person can truly surprise themselves. Hallucinogenics help a bit but you're still in some kind of control. I once thought I invented comic books and that Jupiter was following me around a strip club parking lot while on mushrooms but I've never fucked a vampire as the sun rose and turned her to dust while I orgasmed like I've done in my dreams! Hey, some of my dreams might be problematic or completely gross but I didn't approve them! Like the one where I murdered the old lady so I could live in her house but I didn't want things to seem too suspicious by covering it up so I just propped her corpse up in the corner of the living room. Or the time a friend made me a personalized flavor of Moon Pie called "Murdered Baby's Soul." Dreams are like presidential campaign ads that don't have the candidate saying, "I approve this ad!", at the end of it.

Aquaman was dreaming. Also, he sleeps in a regular bed with sheets and blankets in a cave under the ocean. I would have had him sleeping in a giant clam shell with a manta ray comforter.

Garth visits Aquaman in his cave which isn't full of water so I guess the bed is forgivable. But it doesn't explain why Aquaman was floating over the bed tangled in his sheets. Maybe that will be explained in the post-Zero Hour continuity. Aquaman hasn't been seen in weeks and hasn't been answering his JL pager (Ha ha! Old technology! So funny!) so Aqualad has gone looking for him. He finds Aquaman sitting in his own filth and coral. He probably heard one too many jokes about speaking with fish and he's had it with topsiders.

Aquacave?! Guess who has Bat-Penis envy!

Garth was worried about Arthur and has come to help him which is why he begins screaming at him and pushing him around. I know being berated and treated like shit is the only way I've ever gotten any kind of breakthroughs in therapy. Garth and Arthur get in a fight and the art confirms that the cave is definitely filled with water. So that bed really doesn't make any fucking sense at all. At least it confirms that Aquaman isn't possessed by the devil. After Garth gets his ass kicked, Aquaman begins to feel better and is ready to go on an adventure with Aqualad. Oh, so that was Aqualad's plan! Smart kid whose willing to take a severe beating from a friend just to put a smile on their face. I never would have thought of that. I would have thought, "My friend is really feeling down! I should be empathetic and compassionate while listening to them vent their problems!" But now Peter David has taught me another way. Punch my depressed friends in the face so that they can have a good time fighting back! This is a game changer! Aqualad is on a military mission for the United States Government. A nuclear submarine has been sunk and it's lying too low on the ocean's bottom for the military to deal with it. For some reason, they think Aquaman, being the water guy, can handle a submarine leaking radioactive material. I'm just going to assume Superman was still dead at this point and Batman's back was still broken. I don't know why Wonder Woman wouldn't have been tasked for this mission unless it's just because the U.S. military is full of sexist jerks. Aquaman and Aqualad begin to investigate the ship when they're attacked by Lupo the Butcher.

Does Garth die?! That would make this Aquaman series cool!

Murder Chef was the one who requested Aquaman be sent on this mission. If the military didn't acquiesce, he was going to blow the nuclear submarine apart. I knew it was fucking suspicious that the military asked Aquaman for help! Even Aquaman should have known better! Aquaman is captured by Murder Chef who introduces himself as Charybdis. He wants Aquaman for his life force or something. Previous to capturing Aquaman, he's been draining Dolphin of her life force. I don't know anything about Dolphin except that she had nice nipples in her Who's Who entry. Let me dig it out and show you.

That diver just came in his scuba suit.

Don't be surprised or creeped out that this fact was lurking in my memory. I grew up in the pre-Internet era! You had to find sexually stimulating material wherever you could! And you were fucking grateful for it! This was as great a find as the succubus or the Type V demon in the D&D Monster Manual. Hell, I even jerked off to the Caryatid Columns in Fiend Folio! Aquaman #1 Rating: B. I might have given this issue an A+ but Dolphin lacked the visible nipples I'm used to her character exhibiting. But this issue still gets a worthy B because Garth was left bleeding in the ocean while the sharks circled. He's totally going to die, right? Although I never purchased Issue #3 so I'm guessing I was disappointed that Garth didn't die. Still, you'd think Aquaman losing his hand (spoiler for next issue!) would have kept me intrigued. I bet in 1994, I read this series and was all, "Fucking Aquaman! Like anybody actually cares about the environment! Fucking virtue signaler! [Sorry I Coined the Term "Manic Pixie Dream Virtue Signaler" in 1994 by Me] His excess of caring makes me love oil and corporations now! It's his fault I'm such a selfish asshole!" Man, I was pretty cool in 1994. Now I'm almost 100% pure virtue signaler! Oh, Aquaman! I judged thee by my youth alone and could not see past your idiotic power to speak with fish to lay my sight upon the wisdom of your passionate defense of our only world!

#Aquaman #Peter David #DC Comics #DC #Martin Egeland #Brad Vancata

[jonathanleobl]

Justice League: Blending Revisions (Revised Vision), Entertainment, Optimism and Wrecked Opportunities.

It started with MOS, then, with the critically divisive BVS…. and after that, the studio deciphering what to do (which voice/direction to follow), paved way to the “Marvelesque” ultimate DC superhero team-up event!

There are those who wanted the BVS tone and those who prefer heroes to be smiling (or comedic?)

Adjusting the tone to satisfy criticism for a lighthearted one and would gain the approval of many, but would acquire the irk of those who wanted the grittier tone, which will lead to a backlash.

If the original tone was continued, those who liked it will give support, and probably at least some of those who don’t prefer the tone will still come to see the movie. Better still, there is a possibility to have new fans to discover and appreciate the superheroes coming together with that tone. If the tone was changed, thereby changing character presentation and story, would it gain additional quality to the overall film and within its cinematic arc? There are only conjectures, and on these conjectures the studio hopes for the best (at least as guided by some “voices”).

(image courtesy of dccomics.com)

The Power of Critics

The studio really wanted to set itself apart, and even the structure of presentation for the cinematic universe – the story arc to give reasons to put the team together at an earlier stage –  was made to make itself unique. Indeed, it must stand out! Continuing with the tone will reinforce the banding image which sets it apart from other existing superhero presentations, but DC is unsure of cementing their brand and the only way to do with uncertainty is follow the advice of critics. And seemingly, critics are influenced with a one sided look at how superhero movies should be, and behold its the image of Marvel! Despite this, many people loved the Snyder tone  and want it as an emerging superhero portrayal while dissed by negative reviews. On the other hand, the negative reviews are valid when it comes to film coherency and gaps, and this was addressed in the Ultimate Cut, thereby insinuating the responsibilities of studio bosses for the quality of theatrical release.

Critics are sacred, and the response of WB while definitely trying to comply, left behind people who believed and were brought in by the original vision of Zack Snyder (trilogy?). Forced comedy over clear continuity. Where’s justice? And now, WB is experiencing the backlash of listening too much to critics.

It wants to be original while avoiding the original DNA which has been ostracized by critics in its presentation – and what do we expect to come out from that?  The outcome is the dull and ambiguous result despite its ambition. This is when the balance between “daring to push originality” and “openness to criticism” was not executed to make it favorable. Dare enough to be original, or dare less to listen? Over- compromise is not beneficial when the outcomes are disassociated where they belonged, and still, any outcome of the film is always subject to the voice of critics.

(image courtesy of moviepilot.com)

Sidelining Originality and the Supporters of the Original Vision

For those who love the preceding movies, maintaining the originality and the vision w/c initially brought them in the first place should have been considered, since they have supported the previous films in the arc and they only want to see success of the succeeding films. People who were drawn with the tone that made them love the previous movies will respond to see the continuity, thereby an opportunity for cementing originality for the brand’s own character in the market. This would have been a great opportunity for recognition to elevate it far from the prospect of damaging the brand. Since Justice League has tried to become something else, it roughly fits from what could’ve been originally theirs. But the opportunity to be original is now thrown at the window in exchange to be in the mold of Marvel fashion. Quality is doomed since imitation will always be a lesser quality. People got what they want but it comes with distorting its potential act of closure to the arc by Znyder.

The problem is that it doesn’t want to be viewed in its original conception and therefore has tried to become appealing to the current opinion about superhero genre. In effect, it has become a copycat of where Marvel excels – seeking to win criticism and incite interests from the disparity of audiences. It therefore resulted to lose the interest of those who were there expecting a sense of tonal continuity with MOS/BVS, and at the same time, failed to win the critics and the audiences that WB tried to accommodate because people will still have to deal with a sense of continuity in the cinematic arc. Anything that don’t naturally belong seems forced. Given that Justice League achieved giving a pure form of entertainment, it was also a being a mess in its presentation!  It was indeed fun and new audiences are won, but it has lost the weight of what it could have been in the series.

The product became a second rate flavor which wanted to disassociate from its precedent, while resting on what the previous films have established. Even if the movie which began with MOS is divisive, there is a strong base of people that dig the grittier tone against those who just want their heroes to smile and punch without hassle. (For others, just making Superman smile is enough to make a superhero movie achieve a near perfect status). The people who wanted to see the grittier tone may have their opinion sideline – they were not the consideration here. Indeed, there could be less appeal when heroes are subjected in difficult situations where they need to make a tough call for moral decision. But the envelope should be pushed to test core characters that may deal with resulting consequences, and this happens in a cinematic world where there is a good grounding on emotions, and people’s rejection/acceptance of them that superheroes need to face.

(image taken from batman-news.com)

The Struggle for Profit as Reflection of Reception

Audiences must also understand that the film is not only about itself – its storyline, character and tone –  but it is also about profit. Studios need to see that they become profitable and make measure to ensure that. This is understandable, and trimming the film down to 2-hour runtime thereby increasing the viewing cycles per day is one way of doing it. However, trimming down a film at the expense of its quality is like an “in your face money grab”! Indeed profit needs to be considered and the movies needs to sell, but this can be helped by focusing on what is more important than increased viewing cycles can offer. What is more important was movie quality! People will happily their give money when quality is maintained. It could have been more productive when consistency and being respectful w/ the product have taken more weight in the overall arc.

The divisiveness brought by BVS is not only about directorial responsibility, but also in relation to other film-making considerations mandated by the studio, which rest on the shoulders of studio bosses who decide certain features for the product presentation, such as post-production concerns, the runtime, and the different parts and components planned for the cinematic universe as a whole. In JL, the divisiveness is becoming focused as singular reception in which the “mess” that is seems to have a universal affirmation.

Continuity and Reviews in Retrospect and Prospect

Considering this, how would the previous films be viewed in retrospect with the future films of the cinematic universe? is continuity important enough over financial profit? or can the things un-addressed in the previous films doesn’t really have to matter to over the critical reviews, or probably the continuity can make away to still create a cohesive cinematic universe through the potential of characters to shift the narrative? (A good look at this idea can be seen in: “Justice League, Batman’s Knightmare & the Future of the DCEU” by Mark Harrison in DenOfGeek.com.)

Rotten Tomatoes seems out of touch by giving it sub-level scores (and also for BVS)  when some feels of lesser quality can have a higher rating – it really feels that no one is going to let Snyder pass with this unless tone is shifted. However, it is clear that even though Snyder has been attributed by critics and others as prime culprit in what they hate, JL baggage cannot fall on Snyder alone. I think, that if JL received a good critical standing, they would attribute that to Josh Whedon’s involvement. But since JL is badly reviewed and people said it was fun, now they can’t point all fingers to Zack Snyder since Whedon’s finger prints are all over, and at the same time studio bosses must have a hand in managing or micromanaging the film in response to the reviews. In relation to Zack Snyder, people who says that Zack creates “murderverse” need to acknowledge that the highly praised Wonder Woman origin film was made based on the story in which Zack Snyder is a contributor. Also, there are many Disney cartoons/animations which include a significant person who is to die  (such as parents or brothers/sister) to set the mood of the story. Zack Snyder must have lend a sort of “brain-child” position but the responsibility extends to the whole DCEU. (An interesting article for this “Why Wonder Woman’s Success Isn’t Zack Snyder’s Failure” by Andrew Dyce of ScreenRant.com.)

If JL was a Marvel film, with that level of execution, my judgment is that majority would give it a cheer – this while considering the scores given to previous Marvel movies that I have watched, which in my opinion have qualities that seemed to fall far less, little less or within the range of the JL movie), but amazingly had managed to get good ratings. Another probability is that the   low rating of JL was due to a very high expectation of how the film would be (based on Marvel’s mold?! And expectation due to the load of amazing of staple characters invovled). (A good conjecture for this was given in this article: “Why DC Characters Can’t Get Reviews as Good as Marvel’s” by Stephen M. Colbert of ScreenRant.com.)

Also, what if the trilogy(?) was finished without interfering Snyder’s take? What could have been there if the director’s vision was free to take its course? If WB has stood with its attempt not to replicate the tone of Marvel and be curbed by the “preferences” of the critics about what a superhero movie is about, definitely, Snyder’s take on JL must have fleshed out something entirely. It must have been as solid fit that amalgamates the tone of the franchise that many supporters in that direction clamor about. However this completed work is not available for audience to have (for better or worse), unless a “Snyder Cut” is available, and if the studio is convinced to release such cut for home video. Also, a completed continuity of Snyder would have made a different scenario in the reception of the movie and how it fared well at the box office. (for more of this, check this article: “Why Warner Bros. should have left Zack Snyder’s DCEU alone” by Anghus Houvouras of FlickeringMyth.com)

(image taken from moviepilot.com)

IN THE END

In all, JL was a great opportunity but falls short of being great, it was entertaining and fun, but it could have been more.

(image taken from comicvine.com)

The coming of the three icons is indeed a memorable event in the history of superhero cinematic universe. I’m glad to have witnessed it.

[crookedmediatranscripts]

Pod Save America - Episode 79

09.14.2017 “Amnesty Don”

“The Democrats reach a tentative deal on DACA with Trump, and 16 Democratic Senators sign on to Bernie Sanders’ Medicare-for-All plan. Then New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand joins Jon and Dan to talk about health care and the future of the Democratic Party, and Ana Marie Cox discusses Trump’s voter fraud commission.”

[MUSIC]

0:00:01

Jon Favreau: The presenting sponsor of Pod Save America is Blue Apron.

Jon Lovett: Blue Apron.

JF: Which now offers 30 minutes meals. In parentheses, that's meals every week that take 30 minutes or less to cook.

JL: I don't if you- if you didn't understand 30 minute meals, you shouldn't be operating a fucking stove.

[Laughter]

JF: But keep listening. Which are designed with your busy schedules in mind and made with some flavor and farm fresh ingredients you know and love. Get 30 dollars off your first meal, with free shipping by going to blueapron.com/crooked. Blue apron is a better way to…

JL: Trump is Rubio now.

JF: Cook.

[Laughter]

0:00:35

[MUSIC]

0:00:42

JF: Welcome to Pod Save America. I’m Jon Favreau.

Dan Pfeiffer: I’m Dan Pfeiffer.

JF: On the pod today, we have New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. And later the host of Crooked Media’s With Friends Like These, Ana Marie Cox. Also, this week on Pod Save the World, Tommy talks to Representative Will Hurd, Republican from Texas. First elected Republican on the show- on a Crooked Media show.

DP: Probably not great for him in the long run, is my guess.

JF: [Laughs] Poor Will Hurd. Career was going well until he joined a Crooked Media podcast. And Lovett or Leave it is on tomorrow. I actually don't even know who his guests are. So, sorry Lovett, didn't send me your guests.

[Laughter]

JF: Okay, so where should we start today, Dan? Let's start with- what did you think of the Hillary Clinton interview?

DP: You guys did a great job.

JF: Sweet.

DP: I’m not just blowing smoke up your ass.

JF: I’m just looking- I asked that, I was just fishing for compliments, really.

DP: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys did do a great job. I knew you were taking it seriously when I saw the photo, and you and Tommy both had collared shirts on [JF: laughs] and Lovett was not, as far as I could tell, wearing a logo t shirt.

JF: No, Lovett was wearing his Senator Sweater. That's what he... [laughs]

DP: Yeah, you look like actual serious- you look like interns on your first day of work. No, I thought that was great.

JF: [Laughs] Yeah, no. It was- I thought it was good. Have you read the book yet?

DP: I am probably...50 pages in. I started last night, or the day- yesterday I started. It's- there is a great -- and you guys sort of hit on this in the interview, and you can see it- and you can hear it in her voice. And this is probably a microcosm of the entire Hillary Clinton experience in politics -- is there is great diversions between the book itself and the way the book is covered and talked about.

JF: Right. Completely symbolic.

DP: You know. And if you were to read- yeah, if you were to read the coverage you would think it was this bitter diatribe of casting blame on other people and... refusing to accept any responsibility at all for her loss. And it's pretty much...the opposite of that. And I- like, it's not an easy read. Because it's like, those are really dark times for everyone and, like reliving election day or Hillary Clinton's speech, which I watched in a gift shop in Dulles airport [JF: chuckles] with people crying all around me-

JF: Yeah, it was so awful.

DP: Those were hard things to think about. Or inauguration day, and putting yourself in her shoes. That's- it's honest, it's an honest- the parts I’ve read are, like an honest, very open, raw take on an absolutely brutal experience.

JF: Well yeah, I mean- and she does plenty of taking responsibility for her own mistakes. But it makes you- reading the book makes you realize, again, that we all made mistakes- we're all responsible for this. And I don’t know, I thought it was interesting that, you know- basically the point of the book is- or one use of the book is to learn from 2016 so we that don't repeat 2016. And, you know I think some of that is grappling with challenges that no candidate- no one candidate or campaign can control. Propaganda, whether that's Russia or Breitbart or Fox, like, you know political media that's obsessed with scandal more than policy, and sexism, racism, voter suppression and all that. And I think she does a great job of laying all that out. Some of what we need to learn is obviously grappling with challenges that candidates and campaigns can control. And that's your message, your policy, sort of like the career and life decisions you make prior to the campaign. Making sure your messages break through. And I think she's- in the book she does a really good job of acknowledging all those. I think she has less to say about how to change those things going forward. Because I think she honestly is not sure, you know? And neither are we clearly.

[Laughter]

DP: Exactly. Anyone who listens to this podcast knows those answers aren't clear. And it's not clear how applicable those lessons are to...any other situation other than Hillary Clinton v. Donald Trump. Because-

JF: Right.

DP: You know, like- I was talking to someone this morning about the book and I was saying how open and honest it felt, and raw, right, as I said, in the early pages. And the person said to me - if that Hillary Clinton had shown up in the campaign, would she have won? And your initial thought is, “Yes, of course.” Which is the- just the greatest trope of post-election coverage.

JF: I know.

DP: If the Al Gore who gave his final press conf-speech had shown up, then he would have won. It's- the thing about Hillary Clinton, though, is it's impossible. If she had- in- been sort of that casual and honest and human-like on the campaign, it would've been covered and treated as if it was a cynical political play to be in authentically more authentic. Like it's not- like there are- because of the way Hillary Clinton is covered and treated in the political conversation is just fundamentally different than anyone I can think of in my time in politics. It's just- you know you thought about this in the -- like when the book was coming out. My initial take was, “[Groan] I do not wanna relive the 2016 primary.”

JF: Yeah.

DP: And then there's this huge debate over, should Hillary Clinton write a book? Why is she writing a book? Why is she distracting us from 2018? It's like, that conversation only happens about Hillary Clinton, no one else.

JF: Right.

DP: Right, like, Bernie Sanders wrote a book.

JF: Yeah.

DP: No one said that about Bernie Sanders. [Laughs] So- John Kerry stayed on the political stage after he lost, no one complained about that. And it's just, just there is something about Hillary Clinton -- not herself. Not the person Hillary Clinton. The incorrectly wrongly unfairly vilified political persona of Hillary Clinton - which is, automatically turns every political conversation stupid. And I think that that- you sort of can understand- when you see the reaction to the book, it also helps you understand why the task before her in running for President was- not that she didn't make some mistakes, she certainly did - but the task before her was more challenging in reality than it probably was on paper. Because of- just the things that certain politicians have available to them are not available to her because people do not give- the political conversation does not give her the permission structure to actually do those things.

JF: Yeah, and I think the challenge was somewhat obscured by the fact that...she leaves the State Department with like a 60 something percent approval rating. Very well liked, higher approval rating that Barack Obama at the time, you know? And so, you think, “Okay, maybe all the problems that we've had in the past are in the past.” And they certainly were not. What'd you think about the Sanders stuff? The Bernie Sanders stuff? That was another...cause- I mean, look, it's funny when I said that- when I asked her the question about Sanders, I specifically phrased it so that she wouldn't have to talk about Bernie or attack Bernie. I wanted to know about this going forward as a party, are we a party that needs fundamental reform or change in our policy and our message? Or are we a party that almost won and needs some tweaking? So, I thought she would answer that and she used the occasion to go back and take a few shots at Bernie again.

[Laughter]

DP: Yeah. I mean, that was as aggressive as I have seen- well I mean, that's not fair. I don't wanna say it that way. But- I’m even hesitant to answer this question because...

JF: It's so scary, isn't it?

[Laughter]

DP: Yeah. we're- well, we're just- I mean it's scary for whoever- whatever side of the debate is going to, just, go right up in our mentions.

JF: Yeah.

DP: But, it- but even beyond that, it's just there- it is important and that this book and Hillary in the interview and in her larger press tour -- all of which is less consequential than her Pod Save America interview -- is in some part about learning the lessons, right? And it's the lessons about specific Democratic strategies. It's the lessons about...that America’s not exactly, in some ways, what we thought it was coming out of the Obama era. That sexism is, and I wanna get to that in a minute, is more- is a bigger force in politics than I think a lot of people imagined. Hillary Clinton was probably not one of those people who imagined that, given what she's been through in her life, and a lot of women, like Senator Gillibrand, have experienced.

JF: Right.

DP: But- so there's a whole host about it that are important for us to just understand what happened because it is a... seminal moment in American history. And hopefully we recover from it. But, the Bernie part- I understand her raw feelings and I...as I said to you earlier, I can only imagine how we would've felt, if we had gone through that long, bitter primary with Hillary Clinton, and then lost to John McCain. 

JF: Hm.

DP: I can imagine that we would have hat- carried- had a lot of grudges about that. So, I am sympathetic to the emotions behind that. And I do believe that many of Sanders' attacks on Hillary Clinton were unfair. And they were at their heart, pretty deep character attacks. But that also, that- he was not wrong- he had a case to make, he was running for President, he can make that. They weren't out of bounds, but they were tough. But I am not sure that Clinton’s assessment of Sanders' role post-primary is fair. He- I was in the convention when- hall when he put her name in a nomination. I-

JF: Which is interesting because she mentions that in the book. She's actually a bit more charitable to him in the book than she was during our interview and has been covered in the press. And she did not choose to emphasize those more charitable moments that she wrote about.

DP: You know- cause when she says, he should have argued with his supporters...I think what that- I don't- that doesn't mean -- I could be wrong -- but I don't think that means, like his prominent elected official endorsers or his former campaign staff, like Jeff Weaver or Tad Devine or some of the people we came to know on the campaign. Cause in my recollection they followed Bernie Sanders' endorsement and did what they could to help Sanders get out there and campaign for her. I think she means the quote-unquote “Bernie Bros” on Twitter. I’m just not sure...I’m not sure how he would have achieved that goal.

JF: I don't think he could have. I also think it's like- yeah, I mean...look to me this- what matters more than sort of the personal animosity that lingers between them is, you know, the policy message implications going forward. And it's interesting, in the book, and this was Ezra Klein’s first question to her, which I figured it would be. You know at one point in the book she talks about Democrats needing to bolder on their policies. And she starts talking about how they almost proposed universal basic income that was paid for with, you know, some tax on any company that makes money from natural resources -- so oil companies, and some telecom companies. And it's this extremely progressive policy. She talks about taxing net worth instead of income and all these things that, you know, I didn't even hear Bernie talk a lot about during the race and you can sort of imagine a race where she decided that she didn't want him to outflank her on the left and she started proposing these policies. But then again, you know, as she said to us, she has this responsibility gene and she always expects that once you get into the general election someone says, “How do you pay for all this?” And she felt like she couldn't make the numbers work. And you know that's just a very, it's a very Clinton thing.

DP: And I think it is- it's both, she has a responsibility gene and I have no doubt, having worked on campaigns and that the internal view was, we are probably gonna win this primary. It may be tougher than we thought but, you know you look at the delegate math and they were in pretty good shape, Super Tuesday on. Just a question of when they were gonna close it out, and there was also I’m sure, political fear about running in the general and some of these left-wing- these more progressive policies. Left-wing was the wrong term. I don't agree with that political analysis. I think the more progressive populist approach would have worked, but- I understand that. But I also understand her calculus in the primary is- let's say she went to, you know, “x” tax rate on the wealthy. Sanders- there's no world in which she can outflank Sanders.

JF: Yeah.

DP: He can always go to the left of her. Because he did not feel as compelled as she did to make the math work. And she- he was not running, at least until the- he did not think he was gonna be President so he was not- he was running an issues-based campaign to move the Democratic agenda and the political conversation of the country to the left. And he succeeded in that, and which we'll get to in a minute, with- he had great success in that. Hillary Clinton was worried that she was- you were accountable- we know this, you are accountable for your campaign promises when you get there. So, she gets elected and it’s like, “Where's your universal basic income plan? How are you gonna get it passed? What- is it gonna be in your first budget? Talk about it in the State of the Union-“ Like, she was thinking through governing and if you're thinking through governing it can be limiting principle in what can do in the campaign. And someone who does not feel limited by that reality can always get, always outflank you.

JF: Yeah. I mean look- I think if there's one silver lining to 2016, it is that both the primary and the general showed us that we all need to rethink what is- what does electable mean? What does politically feasible mean? And sort of expand the boundaries of what's possible and not be caught up in, you know, being too cautious or worrying about the politics of something. You know, try to go with the biggest, boldest policy goal that you can and then, you know don't make it too unreasonable and don't lie to people, but, you know set a big goal. And don't worry so much about, oh well this isn't politically possible. Well we'll get into this too when we get into our single payer conversation. Before we get to that, we should talk about what happened last night. So, during the campaign, Donald Trump said that young, undocumented Americans known as Dreamers, quote “Have to go.” And last week Jeff Sessions announced Trump would be ending the Obama-era program designed to protect these Dreamers from deportation. A few weeks before that, Trump threatened to shut down the government unless Congress funded his border wall. Last night at the White House, over Chinese food, President Trump reached a tentative deal with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi to offer about 800 thousand young, undocumented Americans a pathway to citizenship in exchange for more border security, but no border wall. Art. Of. The. Deal. And of course, this morning he tweeted that no deal was made. But then he tweeted that Dreamers shouldn't be deported and that the wall would come later. Which is essentially the deal. Dan, what d'you think caused the change?

DP: He said no deal and then laid out all the provisions of the deal that Schumer and Pelosi announced last night. Once again rendering his press secretary, who tweeted there was no deal, looking like a fool in- out the world.

JF: Yep. That's right. So, what d'you think changed here? What do you make of this?

DP: I... I think...you asked me last week why Trump agreed to the debt ceiling deal with the Democrats. And my answer was, “He's dumb.” That is also still my answer today. [JF: laughs] And I- like when Trump talked during the campaign in an interview with Chuck Todd about the Dreamers and when you read the answer that he gives, it's entirely clear that he has no idea who the Dreamers are, what DACA is, what a change in policy means. He's just erring on the side of fewer brown people in America, which is like his default position.

JF: Yeah.

DP: Without thinking about it or anything else. And now- so he goes- this is a pretty simple Pavlovian response, I think. Which is- let's do all the pieces of this. Trump has enjoyed the press coverage that he has received from the world since his fairly minor deal with the Democrats a week or so ago. Trump still remains mad at Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell for screwing up health care and just being terrible at their jobs. And three, he was offered a way out of a problem and he took it without thinking about it. When you really boil this down, Trump is bad at deal making. Which I get the irony that the guy who ran as a great deal maker and wrote- had a book ghost written for him called “The Art of the Deal” is bad at deal making. But he's taking- like we said last week, he's buying his cars at sticker price. It is- he's taking the first offer and not even using a negotiating tactic where you're gonna demand the wall, and then you're gonna trade the wall for this other thing the Democrats wouldn't otherwise give you. So-

JF: Yeah.

DP: I say all that. I will add that I think this is good for the world. And I’m glad it's happening -- if it proceeds on the path that we hope it does.

JF: I think it is great. It is great all around. I mean, most importantly, it is good for the world and it is good for these young undocumented Americans. This is a win for actual people if- if it happens. We don't know. I mean, we have a long way to go, we should say, before this becomes law. You know, Paul Ryan has said before he's not doing any immigration measure in the House unless he gets a majority of Republicans on board. Now, he has also in the last couple days, he's spoken favorably about protecting Dreamers. So, you know unless there's a revolt in the House that sort of threatens Paul Ryan’s job, you know you could see him cobble together enough Republican votes. Then you know you get of course, just about every Democrat in the House will vote for this so you don't need a ton of Republicans, but he probably needs a good chunk of his caucus in order to save face. So, you can see this getting done but we're not there yet. But if it gets done it is, you know a huge policy win. It's a win for the Dreamers. Also- the other thing that’s a win is that Trump's base is so angry right now. [Laughter] So, some of media reaction last night, we're gonna actually- it- basically the MAGA media reaction is split here. Breitbart ran a headline that just said, “Amnesty Don.” Which is awesome. Ann Coulter said, “At this point who doesn't want Trump impeached.” Laura Ingraham was critical and Steve King, renowned racist from Iowa, said, quote “Trump base is blown up, destroyed, irreparable, and disillusioned beyond repair.” It's just- I couldn't get enough of these tweets last night. It was so enjoyable to read these. The only people who are still with him of course are the biggest fucking lackeys in the whole universe, the crew on Fox and Friends and Sean Hannity. Those are the only people who stuck by him. Sean Hannity said, “McConnell failed so miserably with health care that now POTUS has to deal with Dem leaders.” So, he went with the “look what Mitch made him do” line of attack. [Laughter]

DP: I mean he's not wrong.

JF: Right. [Laughter]

DP: I mean, sort of. First and last time I’ll say that about Sean Hannity.

JF: But to twist this around like Donald Trump makes a deal with Democrats. And some of his support- the Fox team, who are basically just White House employees who aren't getting paid by the government - are like, “he's not- it's not his problem he made a deal to this amnesty deal. It’s Mitch McConnell’s fault because he didn't pass health care.” It is a little bit of a bank shot, there.

DP: [Giggles] Yeah. They are twisting themselves into a pretzel to- to stick with Trump. Look, I do not like it when Trump gets good headlines. Like, that makes me unhappy. But if Donald Trump is going to do the exact same thing that President Hillary Clinton was gonna do, I’m cool with that. Because this is the exact deal that Hillary Clinton would have struck with Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell -- presuming they stayed in the- Republicans stayed in control of Congress -- to pass the DREAM Act.

JF: Yeah.

DP: It's been sitting there- this is a deal that's been out there for a long time. Republicans did not wanna do it with Obama because...they don't like to do things- because they were gonna- they were hoping they would win an election and get to do something about it and end the program and now...Trump is gonna do Hillary’s bidding. Which is...fucking wonderful.

JF: Yeah, I mean- look, Trump is a- a clear and present to the globe. [Laugh] And we need to, you know, elect him out of office or get him out of office as soon as we can, but while we're waiting for that moment, it's great if he will do things that we agree with. It's very simple to me. It's not like this is something that needs to like twist Democrats in a knot, you know, like “Should we be happy for Trump or not?” It's not about Trump. You're right that he's gonna- he will get some good headlines from traditional media and all the people in DC and the DC pundits and stuff like that. And it'll drive some of us crazy cause it'll be like, you know “Trump, the bipartisan independent deal maker blah, blah, blah.” But, like I said, it's both- substantively this is good, but also politically, I think- you know, one thing we missed a lot of during the campaign is how much conservative media sort of drives that base. And, I’ll say something else pretty crazy,  Steve Bannon- what Steve Bannon said on 60 minutes is right, in that this DACA decision, if it goes forward and they enshrine DACA into law, it will cause a civil war in the Republican party and you're seeing it already. Like, Breitbart and Coulter and some folks lining up on one side, very much against this decision, and then the Fox and Friends and Hannitys of the world still favoring Trump. I mean, this is gonna cause a huge political problem in their party which is also good for us. So, I think this is excellent.

DP: In the last 7 minutes or so, we have applauded something Donald Trump’s done, [JF: laughs] agreed with Sean Hannity, and affirmed a statement of Steve Bannon.

JF: What is-

DP: Our iTunes rankings are about to go in the toilet.

JF: [Laughs] What is happening today? Anyway, so, we'll see. I mean, look, I- the other question is, you know, how long does this new Trump last? Do we trust him? You know...I don't know.

DP: Approximately 7 minutes because immediately after the deal was announced, Trump went on a tweet storm against Hillary Clinton criticizing her for her book. So...

JF: Yeah, no. He's playing the hits there, you know...

DP: We are not- the independent, bipartisan, new, freshly pivoted Trump is bullshit. We will take this deal, presuming it comes to conclusion, any day of the week and twice on Sundays, but let's not pretend we have a new President. I will say one thing after having listening to you guys on Monday, as you know I shared your outrage about all of the ridiculous coverage overselling a- the simple moving of a debt ceiling vote as some sort of...Reagan-Tip O’Neil style tax reform-

JF: Yeah.

DP: Deal. But this is- and the argument was, he gave- there was no progressive principle- conservative principle that he sacrificed in order to do that deal. This is actually one where you can say he gave Democrats something they wanted, even if he also somewhat agreed with it, in exchange for almost nothing. But you know, we'll see. But there is an actual subst- this in an actual substantive bipartisan deal if it comes together. And the other thing was...good for Democrats but stupid.

JF: Well, yeah. I just don't wanna separate intention from result here. Like, the result is that he- he stumbled ass backwards into a great partisan deal. It certainly was not some strategy or intention or- you know, he just- everything is impulse. Like you said, he likes coverage when it's good for him, he doesn't like it when it's bad for him. He makes decisions about life and death and the country based on, you know, Fox and Friends versus Morning Joe. And also, he has some personal grudge with Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell now so he thought he'd piss them off by having Chuck and Nancy over for Chinese. And suddenly we have a deal! [Laughter] So it's like...you know.

DP: That's- that is the best part of the whole thing-

[Laughter]

DP: Is that someone reported that...Trump believes that the policy issue on which he and Senator Schumer are closest is Chinese trade. So, they served Chinese food.

JF: It's problematic on so many levels. So many levels.

DP: It's just it's so...simplistic that it is just mind boggling. Like I would like to know what they'd serve for dinner if, like, Medicare reform was their closest issue. Or, I mean- it's just, it's so good. It’s so good.

JF: It's pretty great. Okay let's talk about health care. Speaking of health care. Two bills introduced yesterday. Let's actually start with the last-ditch attempt by the Republicans to repeal and replace ObamaCare. This is a piece of legislation from Lindsay Graham, Bill Cassidy, Dean Heller -- dirty Dean Heller -- and Ron Johnson. In some ways, this is actually the worst of all Republican health care plans, this last one standing. It hasn't gotten a lot of attention, but...basically this plan cuts the Affordable Care Act by 20 billion dollars and then it gives the rest of the money to the states to spend on whatever health care programs they want. But 20 states, mostly large populated states, also blue states, will lose anywhere from 35 to 60% of the funding they currently get from the Affordable Care Act because of a formula in the bill that gives sparsely populated red states more money. States could also get waivers that let insurers charge sick patients higher premiums and stop covering essential benefits like maternity care, prescription drugs. The estimate here is that 32 million people lose their coverage in 10 years, including 11 million on Medicaid, and premiums spiking 20%. So, no one thinks they ha- the good news is no one thinks they have the votes right now. McConnell didn't promise to bring it up. He told them to go find 50 votes on their own. Cornyn, who's the whip, the vote counter, said he didn't see the votes. Ted Cruz said they have about 44, 45 votes right now. We got Rand Paul as a no. And then the big thing is their deadline on this is September 30th. Once we pass September 30th, they go back to needing 60 votes to pass any kind of ObamaCare repeal and replace. And they can't do the reconciliation that only allows them- that only gives them 50 votes. What do you think of this, Dan? How worried should we be?

DP: Because I am not worried, we should probably be very worried. 

JF: Cool, cool.

DP: Like, I think we should- the odds are long for them and there doesn't seem to be a ton of appetite for it, but we thought the same thing the first time the House took it up. We thought the same thing when Dean Heller and others killed health care, then health care came back, then it was killed again, then it became finally killed- like, up until the clock strikes midnight on September 30th, we should maintain a healthy level of paranoia about the Republicans’ desire and ability to snatch health care away from people so they can give tax cuts to millionaires. Like, that's not gonna go away.

JF: Yeah. We're favored by the calendar here. And it seems like from Trump to McConnell to Ryan to all the rest of the Republicans, except the ones who introduced this bill, more of them are focused on tax reform and getting that done than they are on one more attempt at ObamaCare- at repealing ObamaCare. But, you know, once you get to a deadline suddenly all kinds of deal making starts happening. So, you know, everyone should be on the lookout.

DP: Yeah, I would say a not encouraging sign for the Republicans on this is when they had their press conference, they invited Rick Santorum, who-

JF: Why did they do that?

DP: Left the Senate a decade ago. No idea. I think they were like, short a Senator and they were like, “This guy was once a Senator, let's bring him along and maybe people forgot.” He got his ass kicked by Bob Casey in 2006.

JF: Yeah, here we are with former Senator Rick Santorum. He's gonna really- he's gonna juice this proposal. Alright, let's talk about single payer. So, Bernie Sanders introduced his Medicare-for-all bill yesterday, which is co-sponsored by 16 Democratic Senators. That's about a third of the caucus, including Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker, Kamala Harris, Al Franken, and our guest for today, Kirsten Gillibrand.

DP: Quick question, Jon, what do all of those people have in common?

JF: They may, possibly, be running for President in 2020, Dan.

DP: I was gonna say, other than Bernie Sanders, they are- have all been on the podcast.

JF: Oh! Good for us, huh? [Laughs] Yeah, by the way Bernie Sanders, come on the podcast.

JL: It's Lovett.

JF: [Chuckles] He’s here right now

JL: I think that there was something wrong with my email to the Bernie Sanders people. I think it's my fault. I think that I was try- in my attempt at raproshma, I think that I may have...not been the best person to reach out

JF: [Snickers]

DP: Did you send it to [email protected]?

JL: I did.

[Laughter]

JL: Was that not right? That's how people get us here.

DP: That's how Michael Cohen reaches the Kremlin, so it'll work for you, too.

[Laughter]

JF: Okay, so within 4 years, under this plan everyone in America would transition to a universal health care plan run by the government, just like Medicare is now. This is an extremely generous plan. More so than any single payer plan in the world right now- than other countries, more generous than Medicare itself. You would pay no premiums, no deductibles, no copays, no nothing. It would cover hospital visits, primary care, medical devices, medical lab services, maternity care, prescription drugs, vision, dental, the whole shebang. Also, importantly, it would aim to bring down costs, the cost of health care overall. We know now that the Medicare program is currently cheaper than private insurance. The government helps hold costs down. We have this screwed up system in America where we pay doctors and hospitals based on how much care they provide, and not necessarily the quality of the care they provide and the outcomes that we get. That's something that the Affordable Care Act tried to change. Medicare obviously has a lot more power to change this because of their bargaining power because of how many people are insured there. The deal with Bernie’s plan is, everyone would get about 4 years to transition from their current insurance plan to this new plan. How much? Hugely expensive. Sanders did not lay out the details on that. He did have a separate white paper that offered some possibilities for paying for it, including higher tax rates on high income people, a 1% federal wealth tax on the net worth of the wealthiest one tenth of 1%. All of these tax options add up to about 16.9 trillion dollars over a decade and... still not sure if that would be enough to pay for this. One thing I should say that's important is, higher taxes- you know, don't have to mean higher health care spending since no one would be paying premiums or copays anymore, so. Dan, what d'you think about this? How big is this?

DP: I mean, it's hard to overstate how fast...the politics have shifted on this. In 2009 when we were trying to pass the Affordable Care Act… two things. One, Max Baucus, who was a Senator from Montana who was in charge of the finance committee that was writing the bill, refused to hold a single hearing on single-payer on the belief that it was too politically toxic and would endanger passage of the Affordable Care Act. In the Affordable Care Act was a public option, which is a bridge to something like Medicare-for-all or single payer. And... conservative Democrats- there were not 60 votes in a time which Democrats had 60 votes to include that in the bill and it was stripped out, to the objection of many people -- including President Obama and the people on this podcast. And to go from that to the world in which every Democrat who is thinking about running for President believes that it is- that are willing to put their name on this bill, is a pretty stunning- stunningly quick change in the political firmament. What d'you think of the politics of it?

JF: It's interesting, I think that the politics of it are...good. I mean, you can start with, you know something like 64, 65% of Democrats now believe we should have a single payer plan. I think overall the politics are pretty good. I think telling people that instead of, you know, spending all this money in this country on you know, insurance companies and insurance CEOs, and prescription drug companies, and instead we're gonna spend care on people and people aren't gonna have to pay for care and we're gonna hold down the cost of health care. I think those are all good messages. I do think that...if you're an advocate of single-payer, if you're an advocate of this bill, which I am, you do need to think through how you're gonna pay for it and be honest with people about how you're gonna pay for it. And not take questions about how you're going to pay for it as... “Oh, well you're against this and you just must be in the pocket of insurance industry and you know, you're a shill and blah, blah, blah.” Like, we have a responsibility that if we're gonna put forward this plan, to tell people, “We want this. This is the best way to go. This is the best way to have health care in America. This is the best way to insure everyone and here's the way we pay for it and we're not afraid to talk about that.” So, that's what I think.

DP: So, if you were running the campaign of a 2020 candidate, would you tell them to put all the details out? In the course of a campaign, I’m not saying they have to do it in the run-up. So, you're out there, you're gonna give your, you know mandatory speech rolling out your healthcare plan, you think you gotta do the pay force?

JF: I think you gotta give the, some options for the pay- I think what Bernie did, which was a have a separate white paper that had a bunch of options for pay force, is a good idea. I would probably, like, if I was running a campaign, narrow those down, pick some, and go around and- and that would be the message, you know. I mean, at least you wanna get in the ballpark. I don't think you have to have this fucking scored, like the CBO would score it, while you're running for President. But I do think you need-I mean it's just part of the message, you know. It's one thing to just have ads that talk about this, it's one thing to go out there on the stump. At some point, you're gonna get in a debate, or you’re gonna get an attack and someone's gonna say, “Well, how do you plan to pay for this?” And you know you need to be able to give a reasonably good answer that's believable and you need to have a follow up when someone gives you a follow up. I think that's- that's all you need. And I think that's doable.

DP: Do you think you'd do that even if you're running against Trump?

JF: Oh, I think you do that especially if you're running against Trump. I think that's- I mean it's so funny. This is what we talked about with Hillary Clinton and she had this...like, I think it's mistaken to think that you need to have every detail worked out. But I think if you're running against Trump, it is an equally good message to say that you're going to pay for this by raising taxes the richest people on this country.

JL: Dan, it's Lovett.

JF: I knew he wasn't gonna be able to fucking...sit quiet for 5 minutes.

JL: It's 10! it's time for ads!

DP: The danger of moving the studio within 10 feet of his desk.

JF: The master of single payer over here.

JL: First of all- first of all, it's 10 o clock. I’d be talking at the studio too. This is how it goes. Isn't this one of the lessons though, that Republicans have spent a long time separating politics from policy, you know. Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney can run around talking about all the things they're gonna do to cut taxes. But when it comes time to paying for it, they're extremely vague or they just lie about it. Trump’s even worse. I mean isn’t one of the lessons of 2016 that-

JF: That we should be extremely vague and lie about it?

JL: No! Not that we should lie about it! But that- that we can- we can simply go back to you know, as a country we spend “x” on healthcare. We can make up for this by cutting what we spent on health care and by making people pay their fair share and leave it at that.

JF: Do you have numbers that make that work?

JL: What I’m saying, isn't what Hillary Clinton told us is, she was like, “I was waiting for the point where someone asked me do you have the numbers to make that work and in 2016 it didn't happen.”

JF: But she wasn't afraid about putting out the numbers. She was afraid about the political consequence about what the numbers would mean.

JL: But no, I’m not just talking about single payer. I’m saying that she put out all the numbers for her policies and she found that no one ever gave a shit.

JF: Well, if she didn't put out the numbers she certainly would've gave- don't you think the press would've been even tougher on her, if she didn't have any numbers to back up her policies? My thing is like- look-

JL: I don't know.

JF: If we're gonna advocate single payer, we have to be ready to defend the cost of it. And be proud of that.

DP: Let me say a couple things about this. One - the question is, do you wanna just win? And have no chance of passing single payer? Or do you wanna win and try to pass single payer? If you wanna win and try to pass single payer, you have to put enough details out that it is a reasonable proposal. If you were just gonna run on a vague notion of Medicare-for-all and just take the win and let the next President deal with it, then the more Bernie in the primary, Trump in the general election approach makes sense. I think on the larger politics of this, we shouldn't pretend that these politics are easy. Because you are at the end of the day, gonna move 90% of Americans off their current health insurance plan and onto another one. And convincing them, as we know from the Affordable Care Act, that even if people don't love their health insurance, the fear of the unknown exceeds their discomfort with the known.

JL: It's also true, Dan, that the- that you know we are watching a cautionary tale of this right now which is- they spent 8 years campaigning on a lie about health care but when it came time to govern, it's another matter.

JF: Yeah.

DP: That's right. I also think- I think the politics on this are tough. If you can't pass single payer in California or Vermont, passing it nationally is gonna be very challenging. But Democrats are 100% right to do this. It's the right thing to do. If we're ever going to get it done, people have to run on it and try to convince the nation it's the right thing to do. No one has- other than Bernie Sanders in the primary, no one has run on single-payer in decades, or made it the centerpiece of a presidential campaign.

JF: Yeah.

DP: We were able to shift the- one of the reasons why Trump feels compelled -- besides just enjoying Morning Joe commentary -- to do this DACA deal, is that we ran on immigration reform in 2012 and moved the political conversation from being largely anti-immigrant to looking for a comprehensive solution. And if Democrats wanna actually solve this problem, they have to run on it. And so, there's risks to it. But -- to the point you made earlier, Jon -- the traditional ideas of what we think about electability and how policy plays into electability and how resume and biography play into electability are out the window. And so, doing the right thing and being authentic and being bold about it is as best- as good an idea to win an election as we have out there.

JF: Yeah. I also think...the reason I like what Bernie did is it is an opening bid. And the opening bid is far to the left, so that you can sort of move back. And one of my lessons from the Obama years is, you know, the stimulus package, right? We started off with a stimulus package that we thought we could- that was not just the right policy but that we thought we could pass. And we also thought we needed a third of it to be tax cuts because we thought that would get Republicans and blah, blah, blah. And if we had to do it over again, I wonder, it's like- if we put out the stimulus package that we wanted -- that was the biggest, boldest, stimulus package possible, and then we negotiate it down to what we ended up with at our opening bid. Like if we- if we end up with instead of the extremely generous single payer plan that Bernie Sanders has laid out yesterday, if what we end up with is a robust public option that ultimately so many people choose because it's much better than private insurance, and the private insurance industry eventually just goes away because the public option is so popular-

JL: [Murmuring] Which we're not gonna say when we get behind that.

JF: Well- what we got behind yesterday says we're gonna eliminate the private insurance company- industry together all at once, so- you know, we gotta be comfortable with the rhetoric here. Then- you know, then that's pretty great, right? I think the important here is the goal at the end of the day is to get every single person covered, to bring down costs, and to make sure people can pay for health care in America. And we're saying, “This is the north star. This is what we wanna get to and let's figure out how to get there.”

DP: I think, to sort of boil this down, when you don't- when the politics for the things you want to do are not good- go change the politics, right.

JF: Right.

DP: The Democratic Party and the presidential candidates have agency here. They can make a- they can go to the country and convince them to do this and... that is the better way to do it than- it's better to decide what the right thing to do is and convince the country of that than...ask the country what they want and then just give that to them, right. So, you shouldn't dumb down your proposals to do the most politically expedient thing.

JL: Can I ask you both a question about this, which- so Chris Murphy has his version of a public option. It's a strong, public option where companies and individuals could buy into Medicare. Do you- I mean I- I wonder if that's not where we would ultimately land, right? It's kind of a more- it gives people the option and people can stay in their current health care if they want it. Do you think that we're sort of making these things too far apart, rhetorically? We've sort of made Medicare-for-all one thing, and the public option another. But part of me wonders if we can just say, we're for Medicare for all, whether it's a Bernie plan where everybody has- everybody is in it, or a Chris Murphy plan where everybody can buy into it or have access to it with a subsidy if they want. I mean, do you- like I’m just wondering if we've kind of made these things too far apart.

JF: I don't even know if we have made them far apart. When you dig into Bernie’s plan yesterday, it's a four-year transition. The first year just starts with the lowering the age to 55, which is like-

JL: Which Joe Lieberman stopped.

JF: Which is Sherrod Brown's plan. The second year is, you know, raising the age for young people and it kind of goes and meets them in the middle at the final year where it's like 35 or 45, right? And so even Bernie’s plan has this transition. And so, it is- I don't wanna exaggerate the differences as long as you're someone who's proposing, you know, a robust public Medicare plan that more and more and more and more Americans can buy into.

JL: Right.

DP: I mean the ultimate solution here is probably a transition period. Right? Where it's like, we're gonna do the public option and Medicare buy in that will transition into Medicare for all. As opposed to- it seems unlikely that we're gonna pass a bill and we’re gonna- two years later everyone's gonna be on Medicare and private insurance will be eliminated in this country. You will need to transition into it and -- because of what we tried to do with the public option and what we tried to do with the Medicare buy in that Liebermann killed -- we sort of know what the interim steps are. And every one of those steps is a huge benefit to the individuals who would take part in that program and the overall- and reducing costs and quality- and improving quality of care across the health care system.

JF: Yeah. Okay. When we come back, we will talk with New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand.

 0:45:33

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 0:45:38

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JL: If you sold chew toys, you'd make your next move hoove[?] move with Squarespace.

JF: With Squarespace.

 0:46:55

JF: Pod Save America is brought to you by Sonos.

JL: Sonos.

JF: Tell your own Sonos story.

JL: I mean, where to begin.

JF: You got anything?

JL: Honestly, I was born. 

[Laughter]

JL: I lived. I like Sonos a lot. 

JF: Yeah.

JL: I have a Sonos in different rooms in my house.

JF: So, do we.

JL: I have the play base on which my television sits. I’ve been playing a video game called Prey. Now I will say that I-

JF: The Sonos ads always become more about your video games.

JL: That's fine.

JF: Talk about the rich sounds. Talk about the easy set up.

JL: Honestly when I’m being hunted by a nightmare in the game Prey, it feels like there's a nightmare in the room with me.

JF: It is very nice to walk from room to room -- [emphasizing pronunciation] Room to room --

JL: But then I use my glue gun, but it doesn’t work-

JF: And all you hear-

JL: Because the nightmare is immune to it.

JF: And all you hear is the same stuff because Sonos. It's like- it's great.

JL: Beautiful music or the sound of a squealing alien in the game Prey. Which is fantastic, if a little derivative of, you know, some of its inspirations.

JF: For the first time ever, Sonos is offering the listeners of Pod Save America 10% off one order of 1,000 dollars or less for any product on sonos.com. This offer is available for a limited time only and cannot be combined with other discounts or promotions. Use the promo code PSA10.

JL: Promo code PSA10!

JF: Capital P-S-A one zero at sonos.com to receive this exclusive offer. Lovett, it's sad that you don't have the Wi-Fi password so you can't control the Sonos in our new house anymore.

JL: Did you change the Wi-Fi password?

JF: We did. We did.

JL: That's a shame. I’ll get it from Emily

JF: Yeah. [Laughs] 

JL: Emily and I were talking about getting a Soothe massage, the other-.

JF: Oh, that's-

JL: The next time you're not around.

JF: Just gave out the milk for free there.

[Laughter]

JL: Don't say “give out the milk for free” again.

[Laughter]

JL: Anyway, this is about Sonos.

[Laughter]

JL: And you get 10% off- how much? 10% off 1,000?

JF: I thought you said that the other day, but it was Tommy. Tommy used that saying the other day.

JL: Don't milk the Soothe if you're gonna get the Sonos for free.

JF: I mean, you know, maybe it's a whole thing there. Yeah, I understand. Okay! Sonos!

JL: Sonos.

JF: Go get it!

JL: Get Sonos. What was it? 10% off? 1,000?

JF: 10% off. PSA10

JL: 1,000? That's a lot.

JF: Yeah.

0:48:49

[MUSIC]

0:48:53

JF: On the pod today, we are very lucky to have with us New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. Senator Gillibrand, thanks for coming on the pod!

KG: You're welcome. I’m really excited to be on.

JF: We're glad to have you. So, yesterday you signed on to Bernie Sanders' Medicare for all act. And you've actually been a proponent of Medicare for all since your first Congressional race back in 2006. So, it seems like there are two big challenges here with this bill- with this legislation. One is figuring out how to pay for it. And two, just something- you know, we all worried about during the Affordable Care Act debate, persuading the 90% of Americans who have health insurance that we can transition them to a Medicare plan with, you know, little to no disruption in their lives. So, how do we meet these challenges?

KG: Well, I think the most important thing is to give people the opportunity to buy into a not for profit public option. I think it's really important to recognize that so much of the cost in health care today is the fact that we have these middle men called insurance companies that are for profit companies that have very high profit margins, fat CEO salaries, and quarterly obligations to their shareholders. And their goal in life is to make money, as they should be. That's what they are. They're for profit companies. We need someone who's running this that actually cares about people and puts people before profits and puts the health and well-being of Americans first. And so, you need at least a not for profit public option. And so over the 4 years under our bill -- and this is the part that I worked on to write – is, let people buy into Medicare at a price they can afford. And do it over 4 years so people can be eligible each year to buy in. And it lets people see how much less it costs if you're not guaranteeing fat CEO pay and profits for these insurance companies. Over time I think people will then begin to see it's not only less expensive, but it's higher quality care. And so, the reason why Medicare for all is so important is because you have to move away from a for profit system into a not for profit system. You cannot get, in my opinion, to universal coverage and affordability at the same time. And that's why states that have one or two providers are struggling. Because they might have a low population, they might have an older population, they might have a sick population. And so, those insurance companies can't make enough money and that's why they're not there. So, while ObamaCare did a lot to get us in the right direction, it protected kids up until 26, it said you can't be dropped coverage because of preexisting conditions. It made all these changes that really matter. It's still based on a for profit system and so it's still too expensive for a lot of middle class families, for a lot of small businesses. It's still too expensive. And so, to really get cost down you need to be able to take the insurance companies out of the equation and you need to be able to negotiate in bulk for the lowest cost for drugs. You have to be able to take on the drug companies and say, we deserve to be able to buy in bulk through Medicare or Medicaid and get lower prices for people.

JF: So- it's interesting, you mentioned adding a nonprofit- a not for profit public option. That was actually the plan that Hillary Clinton proposed in the 2016 election, adding a public option. And even though her and Bernie fought quite a bit over her plan versus his single payer plan, do you think those differences were over blown? Because, you know, you're talking about adding a public option and then ultimately transitioning to a Medicare for all single payer plan. Do you think this is just sort of a- a difference in how we transition, how fast we transition – what do you think about that?

KG: Well I think our goal has to be single payer. We have to get to a place where all Americans are covered no matter what, and that health care is a right and not a privilege. And that has to be the goal for all of us. But I think the buy in is the best way to transition because honestly if you give people a chance to have Medicare -- I can't tell you how many people when I’ve traveled around the state who've said to me, you know, “I’m 55 years old, I just got laid off, I don’t know why, you know I have to be in poverty to be eligible for Medicaid, it's not fair. Why can't I be eligible now for Medicare or Medicaid?” And it's just- it's what people want and it's not partisan. And as you mentioned, when I ran in 2006 I ran on Medicare for all. I said you need at least one not for profit public option. I said people should be able to buy in. And people liked it and that was a very Republican district. And so, it makes sense. It's really common sense. And it's all about where the money goes and the money should be going entirely towards health care, not to overhead, not to profits, not to CEO pay. And to your question of paying for it. People are gonna buy into this and it's going to be less than they're paying their insurance company. So, people are gonna save money and America’s gonna spend less money on healthcare and you're gonna get to the fundamental cost that's driving the fact that we spend so much more on health care in this country than other countries that have universal health care.

DP: Senator, like all things, this is a question of both policy and politics. What lessons, or- do you take, or concerns do you have about the fact that two of our most progressive states, Vermont and California -- where Jon and I live -- have tried to do single payer and run into great struggles politically? What lessons do you take from that as you think about how to do this nationally? In, you know, obviously a much different environment than California and Vermont?

KG: I think people just have to understand what it's about. When you really simplify it and say, should money be going to insurance company CEOs or insurance company profits, or should money be spent directly on your health care? It's really obvious to most voters. And so, when you present it like that, they say, of course I’d rather the money go to health care. I don’t need to fund insurance company profits. And so, it's- it's simplifying the system and then it's making all health care available to all people. And that's why having single payer, that's why having Medicare for all is really a very elegant solution that solves our greatest problem that too many people are priced out of health care today. It's really, in some circumstances for the most privileged among us, and it's just not right. It's morally wrong. So, I think if you talk about it in that way around the country, they're gonna support this. You know the debate sometimes becomes very toxic and misleading. And so if you really just speak truth to power, I think it's gonna work. And I think people want to have Medicare for all. I think they really- they know their grandparents or their parents are on Medicare. They know they generally like things. They'd like drug prices to be cheaper. We need to deal with that as a cost measure. And then you can begin to create a healthcare system that's not focused on fee for service, but is actually focused on well-being of patients.

JF: So, we interviewed Hillary Clinton on Monday and -- you know, you've been a strong supporter of her and you were in 2016 -- I asked her if she had any advice for women who are interested in politics, who are running for politics now- running for office now, on how to grapple with the kind of sexism she faced in the campaign. What kind of advice would you give to women who are running for office for the very first time? The thousands who have signed up to run since 2016.

KG: Well the first thing I would tell them is to believe in themselves and to make sure they know that their voice will make a difference. I started “Off the Sidelines” about 6 years ago to create a call to action to ask women to do exactly this. To run for office. If they didn't want to run for office, then to support another woman who shared your values, to vote, to become advocates, to be heard. And what we’ve seen since this President was elected is a resurgence of women who desperately want to be heard. And it all started in the Women's March. I mean, I don't know if you participated in any of the marches around the globe, but-

JF: Oh yeah, right here in LA.

KG: Millions- yeah millions of people came out and said, “I want to be heard.” And what was so brilliant about the March was its intersectionality, the fact that it didn't matter what you marched for. You could certainly march for women's reproductive freedom, but you could also march for Black Lives Matter, or you could march for immigration reform, or clean air clean water, or LGBT equality. It didn't matter. It was the first time for a lot of people to just put what they felt most strongly about and put it on a sign and carry the sign. And it was an action that I think really was a process in democratizing democracy in a way that was powerful and certainly meaningful for me and really inspiring. So, for all the women who are thinking about running, please run! We need you! And we need your voice. We need your perspective. You have a very different life experience than most people serving in government. As you know, we only have 20% in the Senate, 18% in the House. And it's not enough. It's just not enough. And so, issues that overwhelmingly impact women and families sometimes don't even get on the top 10 list. It's outrageous that we don't have national paid leave in this day and age, when every other industrialized country has it. We don't even have equal pay for equal work yet. And other things that, you know, perhaps because women see the world differently, having affordable day care or universal pre-k. These kinds of changes would make a difference. So, I just- I believe that we need women. We need the diversity of our country representing our country. And we just don't have it. We need more women of color, we need more African American and Hispanic, Latinas. We need more people running who are different than what we have today. And so, I’m hoping that women really feel this, intensely, that not only are they qualified but they're differences in life experience is what makes them more effective, more powerful, and more relevant for some of the problems we need to face today.

DP: Senator, I wanted to ask you about the deal -- or alleged deal -- that Senator Schumer and Leader Pelosi struck with Trump. And not- I guess I’m curious, not necessarily about the details of the deal, but how you think about Democrats working with Trump, while at the same time believing that he is an existential threat to a lot in this country. Is there a danger that he gets normalized by this? Or we're helping him out politically in ways that Senator McConnell certainly was not willing to do for President Obama?

KG: I don't think some of President Trump's hateful policies will ever be normalized and can never be allowed to be normalized. So, when he's objectifying and discriminating against transgender troops, you stand boldly against him and you say, why? That's immoral. When he wants to say that kids that are here under DACA can't stay, you stand up against him. But if he wants to do something good and his desire is to actually help people, there’s no reason you shouldn't do it. And in fact, it would be immoral if you didn't do it. If he wants to make sure we pass the DREAM Act tomorrow, I will be the first one to say, I will work with you to pass the DREAM Act tomorrow. So, we have to do both. When he does something that’s toxic, wrong, and immoral, we have to stand strong and fight hard. And if he wants to do something that helps people, that is our job- to work with him to help people. That is why we are here. We are public servants first. And if people let politics get in the way of helping people, they're not doing their jobs.

JF: So, you're someone who used to have a more conservative position on immigration when you first ran for Congress. Now, you know, you're one of the strongest advocates for a path to citizenship for undocumented Americans. Talk a little bit about your evolution on this issue, and also, you know, how you think Democrats should approach immigration policy going forward.

KG: Well, as an upstate House member, I just didn't have enough experience understanding the traumas that families face who are dealing with immigration in this country. My district was maybe 98% white and I didn't take the time to understand why this issue was so important and how harmful anti-immigration policies are. And so, when I was appointed to the Senate and was given the job of representing the whole state, I spent time with families all across the state to hear from them about what their lives were actually like. And I have to say I was horrified that I hadn't been sensitive enough, that I hadn't understood how difficult and challenging some of these hateful politics can be for a family. And I can't imagine what it's like to be a child whose parents could be shipped away at any moment. Like, I can't imagine the anxiety that they feel. And so, I feel so strongly now that we have to work much, much harder to protect these kids, to protect these families, and to really make the case about how important the history of immigration is in our country. I mean, we are a country founded by immigrants. Part of the strength of our democracy is because of our diversity. Part of the strength of our economy is because of our diversity. And I’ve met with refugee populations, with immigration populations, across our state who, when they come here all they do is grow the economy. They start businesses, they start families, they invest. And so, we need comprehensive immigration in this country. We need pathways to citizenship. We have to protect the kids who are under DACA and who are Dreamers. So, I just feel like our country- it's not about tolerating diversity, it's about the strength the diversity caused. Our country is stronger because of our diversity.

DP: Senator, we wanted to ask you about the amendment you're working on with Senator Collins, about protecting transgender troops. What would that do to address the situation of the new Trump policy? And what are the prospects, do you think?

KG: The prospects are very strong that we can actually pass our amendment. Senator Collins and I have worked on issues that affect military personnel for many years now. She and I worked together on repealing Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. And we, you know, nobody thought we could repeal that policy. Even the advocacy groups were afraid to vote on that. But we did. And we pushed it because it was the right thing to do and goodness prevailed on that day. I think the same is true here. We don’t know how many votes we have, but we've just convince Senator McCain to support our amendment. Which is fantastic because he's seen by many Republicans as the leader on all things military. And so, what our bill will do is protect any transgender troops who are serving today and make sure that they cannot be discriminated against because of their gender identity.

JF: Senator, one thing we learned this week after interviewing Hillary on Monday is, you know from some of the responses, here's still a lot of deep divisions within the party between Bernie supporters, Hillary supporters. What are your thoughts on a message and policies that might unite the Democratic party in 2018, 2020, and beyond?

KG: Well certainly policies that really affect people deeply. Like Medicare for all. I think being willing to take on the drug companies and getting health care costs down is one of the biggest drivers of economic insecurity in this country today. I think focusing on rewarding work. Just listening to the challenges workers face across this country and then working so much harder to meet their needs. So, focusing on ways that reward work, such as obviously raising the minimum wage. But also investing in manufacturing, seeing ‘Made in America’ again. Making sure we invest in the kind of training and education that gets people right into the jobs that are available today. Having structural changes like paid family leave. I can't tell you how many people are forced to leave the work force because of an urgent family crisis, if they can even afford to do so. So being bold, being aggressive, speak about the vision for the party. I think free education is something we should absolutely fight for. Especially for these worker training issues. Like if you get laid off and your mid-career and you just need 6 months of training to get that job at that manufacturer, you know five miles away, that should be available at any community college, any local state school, for free. And so, the kinds of things we could do to level the playing field for workers and restructure the economy to reward work again. I mean this is a long conversation but, you know we have had an economy that is overwhelmingly dominated by shareholder value. It's overwhelmingly dominated by who owns things. And so, if we wanna refocus it towards who works in the economy, who actually are the people that build things, it's gonna take some really structural challenges. And I think if you incentivize companies to do things like profit sharing or employee ownership or creating a workplace policy that support workers first. Really investing in B corps and saying, if you're gonna focus on sustainability and have pro worker, workplace policies, you're gonna get a tax advantage, you know. If we're gonna do tax reform, let's increase tax benefits for companies that create their companies this way. And then support our unions. Our unions are our greatest voices for workplace fairness and to get higher pay for workers. And really help communities understand that if they have someone negotiating for them, they're gonna be more powerful. So really renew our commitment to helping unions be strong. Cause they- they put people first. And so, it's just this question of what do you do first, people or profits? And we are a capitalist country, we believe in capitalism, but we don't believe in greed. And that is the difference. That has been the divergence for the last several decades. And so, we have to reward good companies that wanna create jobs, reinvest in the middle class, and reinvest in their workers. And make it more profitable for those kinds of companies to succeed by investing in them.

JF: Awesome. Thank you so much, Senator Gillibrand for joining us. And please come back again.

KG: Thank you guys so much! I really appreciate you including me.

JF: Oh, absolutely. Take care!

KG: Take care, bye!

JF: Bye.

1:06:34

[MUSIC]

1:06:39

JF: Pod Save America is brought to you by Parachute.

JL: Parachute.

JF: What do you think?

[Laughter]

JL: I think Parachute is just terrific. We are back to using Parachute as the giveaway at Lovett or Leave It, for people who win the games. Sadly, we've not had a lot of people lose the games and I’m trying to figure out how to make them harder.

JF: Yeah. I could win any of those games.

JL: Well that's because you're a news junkie. That's because you’re a fiend. A Twitter fiend.

JF: Yeah. I’m gonna help you come up with the fake- the- you know how it's '”too fake to be true” or whatever that game is that you guys play? I’m a casual listener.

[Laughter]

JL: Too stupid to be-

JF: Two truths and a false?

JL: Too stupid to- don't- it's called “too Stupid to be true.”

JF: Too stupid to be true. I think- [giggles]

JL: Parachute.

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[Laughter]

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[Laughter]

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JL: She mentioned robes to me-

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[Laughter]

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JF: [While laughing hysterically] Sultan of Brunei!

JL: I don't where that- I don’t even know anything about the Sultan of Brunei. Maybe they sleep on a- maybe they sleep on very low count thread sheets that are uncomfortable.

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[Laughter]

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Both: Parachute!

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1:08:30

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JL: And it is nobody's business. It's my business.

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1:09:31

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1:10:07

[MUSIC]

1:10:11

JF: On the pod today, we have the host of Crooked Media's with Friends Like These, Ana Marie Cox. Welcome!

Ana Marie Cox: Hello, guys.

JF: Hi, there. You just did an interview with our pal, Rembert Browne, right?

AMC: I did and if I do say so myself, it was fantastic. It was good for me. I hope it was good for him. I hope listeners appreciate it as well. We did a really deep dive into the piece that came out this week that he wrote that is a profile of Colin Kaepernick with a missing piece. Which is an actual interview with Colin Kaepernick, but in a way- like, just as a magazine nerd and as a writing nerd, I’m sure you guys appreciated this about the piece as well, which is that one of the things it's about is that it's not Colin Kaepernick's job to be a celebrity and be in profiles. And it's not his job to be interrogated by people about his beliefs.

JF: That is true.

AMC: He has a job. And he's doing it. Which is that he's an activist now, you know. He's not at the beck and call of reporters or other people that- that want to question him. Like he's doing what he needs to do.

JF: That's an interesting angle on it. I like that.

AMC: And it's just a great piece and obviously it's really current right now. Not just because we are, you know, in the middle of one of the most politically charged football seasons that we've seen in a while. But obviously, Jemele Hill at ESPN tweeted some truths about Donald Trump, including the fact he's a white supremacist. And not only did ESPN discipline her in some unspecified way, but Sarah Huckabee Sanders asked ESPN to fire her. From the podium of the White House. What's your guys' take on that -- as far as like, using the White House podium to ask for people to get fired?

JF: I mean it's fucking absurd, you know.

[Laughter]

JF: When- when reality television star Donald Trump ran around calling Barack Obama and others racist, we didn't call for his firing from the White House podium. But we could've.

AMC: Yeah.

DP: Perhaps we should have.

AMC: Yeah, you guys could've really nipped this in the bud. I think that's actually the real lesson here, right?

DP: Seriously. This is the- this is the baby Hitler question as relates to Trump.

[Laughter]

AMC: So, that's super ugly in, you know, race news this week. Other stuff too, what did you guys wanna talk about? What do you got left on the list?

JF: What we have left on the list is...we didn't talk about the antics- the Kris Kobach antics this week with Trump’s voter fraud commission. Kobach wrote a piece in Breitbart where he said that Hillary Clinton and Maggie Hassan won in New Hampshire because of illegal voting by out-of-state residents. This is, of course, false. Most of these are out-of-state college students who had every legal right to vote in New Hampshire. What's the deal with this dog and pony show here?

AMC: Well, in a way it encapsulates- it's a microcosm of everything that's wrong with the Trump administration. Which is to say that it's a poorly formulated idea that was poorly executed, that will have very few real-world ramifications beyond just re-solidifying bad ideas.

JF: Yeah.

AMC: Like Kris Kobach himself has said that he's not sure if anything is gonna come from this commission. But as you guys know, propping up the idea that voter fraud is something that is a real thing that we need to do something about, is itself a powerful idea. You know, that's a powerful tool to broadcast to the nation, that there is such a thing as massive voter fraud and that it's done on behalf of Democrats. The thing itself was almost literally a joke. Like, at one point they brought out antique New Hampshire voting machines to demonstrate? Like...like you would not pay a nickel to go see in a museum, you know?

JF: Yeah. What do you think about some Democrats who are calling on the Democratic members of this commission to resign? And they refused, saying, you know “We need to be here to sort of watch Kobach's antics.” What do you think about that?

AMC: I’m torn. I think that the main reason I would say that they should be there, is that one of the members of the commission - Hans Spakovsky, do you guys know how to pronounce his last name? It's just like one of those complicated-

JF: No, I’m not even gonna try. I have pronunciation issues on the podcast, so-

AMC: You know, eastern European sounding names, I don't know. He's one of the main architects of this voter fraud, fraud. He asked that Democrats not be a part of the commission. So therefore, I think that they should be. If one of the main perpetrators of this lie doesn’t want Democrats there, then I think Democrats should be there. I mean, I’m curious about- you know this is a question for a lot of people on the left right now, is how much you should be working with the other side. I’m sure you guys dived into the DACA thing, you know, should Democrats at all work with Trump or work with Republicans? I mean I think it's probably a case by case basis.

JF: Totally, yeah, I think it's case by case. I think on DACA it's our policy outcome so yeah, of course.

AMC: Yeah, right.

JF: It's not like- we gave up almost nothing. Or it looks like we're gonna give up almost nothing.

AMC: And I do think the Democrats being on Kobach's commission means that there's probably a little bit more transparency there. Like they'll fight for people to be able to come and see the commission’s hearings, at least. And see that they're a joke.

JF: Yeah, well okay, this is- you know I’ve been very critical of some of these folks who are in the Trump administration who are claiming they're there to like save America. And, you know, they're serving for that reason and I think that at this point they should absolutely resign and tell the country what's going on in the Trump administration and that would have a greater impact than them staying in there. Aside from some of those in national security roles like McMaster. But on this one, on the voting commission, I like that there are Democrats on the commission because it's a public commission. And I think that if you have Democrats there, they can speak out and call out Kobach's lies in- you know, to the public while it's going on. And I would imagine that if this commission comes to a conclusion that's insane and wrong, they will certainly not sign on to that and they can use that position to speak out.

AMC: And they will have some weight behind not signed on, right.

JF: Right.

AMC: They'll be able to say, “And this is why we're not signing on.” Rather than speaking from the outside. I do wanna- I mean people who are listening to-

JF: And they're speaking out now and they're not waiting, even. Which is nice.

AMC: Right, right. And I know people listening to this show know this, that voter fraud is not a problem. It doesn't really exist. But this is one of the most pernicious, like, urban legends that exists in America.

JF: Yeah.

AMC: My- my Trump supporting in-laws, you know, again are good example here. Like they earnestly believe that there's some kind of conspiracy around this. And they refuse to be shaken from it. So, the more that we can do to combat this and like just the- you know, the popular narrative, I mean, the better. And the best, the best way to combat it, though, I think is just continuing to fight against the, you know, unfair gerrymandering and just continue to just register people to vote and do voter turnout. There's no, unfortunately, like just make- make the evidence- put the evidence in the votes, if that makes sense.

JF: Yeah, and publicize some of these battles on the local and state level which our friend Jason Kander is doing so well. So, I think- I think that's an important thing to keep in mind.

DP: I think it's worth nothing that Hans van whatever, he was on the FEC. He was recess appointed because the junior Senator from Illinois, to much controversy, put a hold on his nomination. So, real prescient move there, Barack Obama.

JF: There you go. Alright guys, well. So, everyone should tune in- so, With Friends like These, your interview with Rembert Browne drops tomorrow-

AMC: Yeah.

JF: So, everyone, make sure you download.

AMC: It'll probably be a little long. I’m just gonna -gonna toss that out there I know people probably- I know some people don’t like when we do those, kind of bonus episode length stuff. But I think it's worth it. I think it's a really good piece.

JL: Ana, hey, it's Lovett. I wanna talk a little bit about salesmanship.

[Laughter]

JL: I would say that there are probable other qualities besides the length of it that people might enjoy. The interesting qualities of the conversation, the fascinating insights the Rembert brought to the table. Perhaps- perhaps long is a better thing because you'll be so engrossed in it you won't want to stop listening. Maybe you'll-

AMC: I think time will fly. I think people won’t even realize.

JL: Maybe you'll sit in your car-

AMC: I’m not even gonna say how long it's gonna be. Because people aren’t gonna know. Cause they’ll- they're sense of time will be warped by the investment that they'll have while they're listening

DP: I don’t know if you've been in a McDonalds recently but Americans like more.

[Laughter]

DP: More podcasts, less- same price.

JF: Guys, I think, I think we've bled right into the outro here.

[MUSIC BEGINS]

JL: We're in the outro.

JF: We're- it's here. Now we are. Because this episode is now long.

JL: And, music!

[Laughter]

JF: Also, guys-

DP: Can I add- can I add two minutes to this intro before we go?

JF: Sure.

DP: So, I was on a podcast last week called The Rights to Ricky Sanchez, which is the premiere Philadelphia of 76ers podcast.

JF: Oh yeah, I saw that.

JL: That's my favorite Philadelphia of 76ers podcast!

DP: And the host- well- good, because you came up in the podcast. One of the hosts-

JF: Now you've got his attention.

DP: One of the hosts -- yeah, now he's excited -- is a TV writer in LA- in Hollywood. And many years ago, he interviewed to be your assistant on 1600 Penn.

JL: Cool.

JF: Whoa. And now-

JL: How'd it go?

DP: You did not hire him.

JF: [Laughing]How'd it go?

DP: You did not hire him, but you did tell him the main part of the job was to- was to get you French fries whenever you wanted them.

JL: No!

[Laughter]

JL: No! That's exactly wrong!

JF: Yes!

JL: That's exactly backwards and now I’m glad I didn't hire this person-

JF: Elijah, this is the clip that we wanna use on social media.

JL: You can use this clip all you want because I vividly remember what I said, because I ended every interview by saying the same thing: “I am not kidding. If anyone brings me French fries, they're fired.”

[Laughter]

JL: And I’m gonna ask for them.

JF: Seems like there was a lot of firing.

JL: Yeah, we went through- I went through 40 people.

[Laughter]

JF: Alright guys, well that's all we have for today. We still have tickets to Pod Save America, which- which?

JL: Ann arbor.

JF: Ann arbor!

JL: What kind of operation is this?

AMC: That's where I’m gonna be! That's the show I’m in.

JF: Where Ana’s joining us.

JL: Where Ana is.

AMC: Yeah!

JF: It's crooked.com/tour. Also, you know Santa Barbara still in December, but that's a couple months away. But Ann Arbor! Ann Arbor's gonna be in October and we have a second show, so we still have tickets to the second show. Excellent. All your friends will be there.

AMC: Come see us, guys.

JF: We'll all be here. Alright guys, we will- we'll talk to you all on Monday. Take it easy.

JL: Take it easy?

DP: Bye, guys.

JL: End of show.

JF: Good night and good luck.

DP: Just mixing it up on the outro.

[Laughter]

JF: And that's the way it is!

[Laughter]

JL: Courage.

[Laughter]

1:20:53

#podsa #September 2017 #podsa transcripts

[comingupforblair]

I wish people would try to find out if an article can be trusted by googling or at least reading the whole article to see what the source was. Like seriously, reddit? 4chan? Or just a ~source~? No wonder posts like "DC & warner bros want Wonder Woman to fail intentionally" got at least 10k notes. Like, I probably can post an article saying a source confirms Hal Jordan has been cast & it's Donald Sutherland, and I guess everyone will just believe it and be angry at DC & warner bros

I know. People just forget all sense of skepticism when it comes to these films. I kind of want to start some shit like that too just to see if people believe it. Say that Wonder Woman 2 is going to be filmed entirely in black and white and in portugese and a source says that the last ten minutes of JL are just going to be reenacted scenes from The Room, Ben Affleck is leaving the role of Batman and will be replaced by Danny DeVito and Aquaman will be filmed entirely in Swedish and will only be screening in a small village in South Korea for a period of four days and may be cancelled entirely at any point in production as every frame of the project has to be personally approved by former Prime Ministers of Australia Bob Hawke and Paul Keating.

[aion-rsa]

INTERVIEW: Priest & Cowan on Deathstroke and Real World Violence

SPOILER WARNING: The following interview contains spoilers for “Deathstroke” #11, in stores now.

All these months later, and storied DC Comics characters are still lining up for their respective debuts in the publisher’s Rebirth reality. This week sees the reemergence of that jaundiced, feral freak, The Creeper, along with his Fourth Estate alter ego, Jack Ryder. To make the return all the more odd, it takes place in the pages of “Deathstroke #11,” by Christopher Priest and guest artists Denys Cowan and Bill Sienkiewicz.

Priest and company have hardly taken the typical approach to Slade Wilson or his terminations with this series, opting instead for something just as violent, but far more introspective. That’s especially evident with this latest issue, a frank examination of gun violence and vendetta–not in Gotham or Metropolis, but real world Chicago. When multiple perpetrators of gang murder turn up dead themselves, journalists flock to cover the story of a potential serial killer. Is this justice, or the kind of “eye-for-an-eye” vigilantism that only feeds the cycle of violence? Perhaps an assassin with an eye-patch may prove the best testimony.

CBR: Chicken and egg question: Did Deathstroke #11 start with the outline, or the knowledge that Denys and Bill would be the art team?

Art from “Deathstroke” #11

Christopher Priest: The issue began as an inventory story, which is an issue we prepare and hold in case there are production or scheduling problems with the book. I wanted to do an anti-violence story and thought, what better place to do an anti-violence story than Deathstroke — a book that all but glorifies violence. As I see it, my run does not glorify violence so much as it examines the consequences of violence and the effect living this lifestyle has on this man Slade Wilson. I thought a stand-alone inventory issue would be a great platform to make a more forward-leaning statement about those consequences.

At the time of commissioning, there were many stories about the rising toll of shootings in Chicago, with 2016 being a record-breaking year in terms of gun violence and homicides. I thought this tragic situation would make an appropriate platform for my story, and discussed it initially with film director and producer Reginald Hudlin (“D’Jango Unchained,” “2016 Academy Awards®,” “Marshal”), who is now a principal in Milestone Media Inc. I invited Reginald to co-write the issue, but he was busy at the time directing the upcoming biopic “Marshal.” He did share his views on the culture of violence—including Hollywood’s role in it—and suggested my story might work as an urban spin on the classic western “A Fistful of Dollars,” wherein the beleaguered townsfolk hire the gunslinger Clint Eastwood to resolve their problems by means of violence. “Dollars” is a cautionary tale and an anti-violence statement in its own right, and Reginald’s suggestion provided the direction I ultimately pursued.

I thought the story would be a great fit for Milestone Media in its renewed relationship with DC Comics, and had hoped for a mini Milestone reunion by inviting Reginald and Milestone co-creator Denys Cowan to join me. I was incredibly pleased when Denys said yes and worked the “Deathstroke” story into his busy schedule. Denys then brought along our longtime friend Bill Sienkiewicz as well as longtime Cowan letterer Willie Schubert (“The Question,” “Legends of The Dark Knight,” “Lone Wolf & Cub”).

Was there ever any resistance to this story?

Priest: DC has been unqualified in their support of this story. I was actually prepared for a fight and kind of expected the story to get dumped somewhere along the approvals process, but both Bob Harras and DC Publisher Dan DiDio were extremely supportive, making me feel a little like a dope for, essentially, doing to the company what I’d experienced for so long — making assumptions along cultural lines. I kind of owe the company an apology for my having suited up for a fight that never happened.

Art from “Deathstroke” #11

Obviously, every project is different, with its own mood and pace. Denys, were there any particular challenges when putting pencil to paper on this one? Anything you wanted to try?

Denys Cowan: The challenge of this story was to try to convey the city of Chicago and the people who live there, because the city is as much of a character in this story as Deathstroke is. I tried my best to show this… and with the excellent story by Priest and the inks by Sienkiewicz, I’m very happy with the way this issue came out.

I don’t imagine this applies to anyone on this call, myself included, but there are those who don’t want politics to infringe on the escapism of their comics reading experience. What’s your take on that?

Priest: Read other comics. [Laughs] The way I see it, there are so many choices these days and so many genres from both major and indy publishers, that there should be room for a myriad of approaches. You know, once there was a Cary Bates approach and a Denny O’Neil approach, with Chris Claremont emerging as a kind of amalgam of the two: the high-energy larger-than-life superhero action but character-driven and grounded in reality.

DC films are very much grounded in reality, while the main grouping of their superhero comic books tend to read more like animated series in terms of their heightened reality and high-octane action. Everything is really loud and really bright and occasionally silly, with colorful villains like Abra Kadabra and so forth. But The Dark Knight was so good, it actually worked without the costumes. I mean, if Bruce Wayne had been a Bond-style vigilante rather than Batman, that movie would have still worked.

If I were writing Justice League, the book would probably not be something DC fans would want to read because it would be far less larger than life and would echo life as we know it. I mean, what if there really were a self-appointed group of godlike people “protecting” us? How would the world respond to these people? My JL book would examine the real-world conflicts, challenges and consequences and be less concerned about the next galactic menace the heroes would have to fight.

Art from “Deathstroke” #11

This isn’t to criticize writers who write the bang-zoom stuff; these are very talented people doing a great job. But I, personally, don’t read those comics unless I have to for research because they don’t appeal to me, and nobody is writing “JLA: The Real World,” which would appeal to me. It’s also possible I am simply not the audience for mainstream superhero comics because so much of it is just too cranked and too loud for me. I want the real world—or as close to it as I can get—and then pop the heroes into it.

Cowan: This isn’t a political issue to me. Gun violence is a human problem. We deal with this subject in the context of a thriller type story.

Still others might ask why Deathstroke the Terminator is the right guy to relay questions about the cycle of violence in the real world. Do you think audience perception of Slade is a hurdle or an advantage in telling a really charged, meaningful story?

Priest: I think only Nixon could go to China. If DC is going to do an anti-violence story, it really has to take place in “Deathstroke” in order to have real credibility. You had to send the most staunch anti-Communist crusader to talk to Mao in order for any agreement to be trusted by both sides.

I went into this one cold. In fact, I read this digitally without having seen the cover. So when the Creeper shows up, it was maybe the last cameo I expected to see. It’s almost a shame most other readers will have already seen him on the cover. How did the Creeper become part of the equation?

Priest: For this story, I wanted Deathstroke to be portrayed, more or less, as a force of nature. He has very few lines. The story is told by a point of view character. I thought that POV character should ideally be a reporter; someone who could ask questions. I did not want to the book to preach to the readers “Violence Is Bad!” I wanted to preach a good sermon. A good sermon is like a good court summation: tell a story, ask pointed questions, which lead the hearer to draw their own conclusion.

I initially wanted Lois Lane, but there was so much going on in the Superverse that we looked elsewhere. When Jack Ryder came across my desk, I felt Ryder — a former Jerry Springer-type — would be perfect. The story is built around Ryder however, as it developed, it became obvious that if we have Ryder in the book, readers would expect The Creeper to make an appearance.

I actually did not want Creeper on the cover, but this is the first post-Rebirth appearance of the character, so it made sense that DC would want to play that up. Hopefully, the way the book is written, most readers will have all but forgotten about The Creeper until he makes his entrance. I think it still works.

What’s important to you right now, as storytellers in, let’s call it 2017? What do you personally want to explore or say or ask? What do you want to get out of it?

Art from “Deathstroke” #11

Cowan: As a storyteller in this medium, I’ve always tried to explore the human experience using extraordinary superheros to entertain and reach people. It’s just as or maybe more important in 2017 to continue to do that.

Priest: I’m still trying to decide if I’m having a good time or not, and how long I’ll be writing comics. It’s a lot of hard work, and there’s this big team the editor has to corral, like herding cats. I worry that I’m really not in sync with what is popular and what sells these days, which is probably why I am not offered leading, or A-List titles. A friend told me last week, “Dude, that [Denny O’Neil] era is over.” Man, I really hope not. I loved Cary Bates’ Superman and Flash, But Denny took Superman and grounded him in reality — got rid of Kryptonite and de-powered him, then wrote him introspectively. It should not be zero sum. Grant Morrison’s “JLA” was certainly larger than life and sold a gajillion copies, obliterating my “Justice League Task Force.” So, do I still belong here? I guess that’s for the readers to decide.

I’d like to be writing novels and exploring other creative avenues. As of this writing, there are lots of possibilities and I’m really kind of shocked that so many people have approached me to work with them. It’ll likely be at least another month or so before I know for sure what 2017 looks like.

Art from “Deathstroke” #11

The post INTERVIEW: Priest & Cowan on Deathstroke and Real World Violence appeared first on CBR.com.

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