#alphys meta

[stainedglassthreads]

Knight Alphys Master Theory

I acknowledge the popularity of and evidence for Knight Alvin and Knight Papyrus. But let's put them aside for a few moments.

Full lengthy of the theory will be kept below the cut, as it gets quite long, but have a quick banner.

The True and Neo Chaos

Let's begin with something interesting. There have been a couple of words showing themselves as fairly prominent amongst the Secret Bosses, that people have picked up on: those words being Neo and Chaos. Jevil references both, with his endlessly spouting about Chaos, and his including 'Neo' into a few of his attack names. Spamton also refers to his new body as 'Neo'. But the secret bosses are not the only area in the Dark World where these things are mentioned.

Spade King is, so far, the most ardent supporter of the Knight, and is incredibly excited by the concept of spreading darkness across the Light World. His battle theme is entitled 'Chaos King'. Queen also gets in on the fun--she talks a lot about a Neo Fountain, and explains how Determination, a trait found in all Lightners, is a vital component in the creation of both a Dark Fountain and a Neo Dark Fountain.

So, with King being the only one confirmed to have met, spoken with, and even received help from the Knight, and Queen having witnessed them make a fountain, it seems 'Chaos' and 'Neo' might be very important terms where the Knight is concerned, and that the Knight will also be linked with Determination.

You know who's linked with all three of these things in Undertale? Alphys.

"But Glass!" my hypothetical audience says in confusion. "That makes no sense! Alphys did the DT experiments, sure, but she's hardly particularly determined. And concepts of 'Neo' and 'Chaos' don't come up in Undertale at all, let alone in connection with Alphys of all people! Really if anyone was dt-connected and likely to show up in Deltarune, wouldn't it be Sans or Chara--"

Au contraire, dearest darling readers! As we all know, the term 'Neo' does show up once in Undertale, with a very blatant connection to Alphys!

As we all know, Mettaton Neo is Mettaton's original body, created by Alphys to allegedly be a human eradication robot, which the ghost Mettaton inhabits and fuses with. It's meant to be his 'ideal body', even if he doesn't really want to kill humans.

However, Mettaton Neo has links with a few other monsters, besides Alphys... Who also have interesting links with Alphys.

Now, if you'll notice, all three of these monsters have some interesting similarities.

All three have a normal form, and a significantly more powerful form you fight under special circumstances. Undyne, Mettaton, and Flowey all talk about protecting or killing both humans and monsters--and both Undyne and Flowey(before the Photoshop Flowey boss fight) use the words 'Humans. Monsters. Everyone,' before their respective fights. Undyne feels the powers of 'everyone's hearts beating as one,' and Asriel mentions something similar before using everyone's souls to break the Barrier.

Those are some similarities in terms of circumstances. But they also have a lot of similarities in terms of appearance. All have a prominent heart icon in their chest, huge shoulder spikes, and inverted sclera. Undyne and Mettaton very prominently have something weird going on with one eye. Mettaton and Asriel have very big and flashing wings, while Undyne and Asriel have big white gloves with more heart markings.

These three also have another, more subtle connection: all of them are connected to Alphys in some way, be it major or minor.

Mettaton Neo's body was built by Alphys. Undyne convinced Alphys not to commit suicide, and thought Alphys has many crushes, she's the crush who needs to reciprocate Alphys' feelings for Frisk to learn more about the Amalgamates, Flowey, and the Tapes, opening the way for Flowey's master plan and the True Pacifist Ending. And of course, Asriel was revived by Alphys, and she's the only one who realizes how bad things are about to get when Papyrus mentions a 'little flower' told him to gather everyone.

Wrapping this all up, while Mettaton's name in this form mentions Neo (with his theme also mentioning it), and Undyne and Asriel are blatantly linked to Determination, Asriel also has a very interesting hint at things: a number of his attacks use the word 'chaos' in their names. Notably Chaos Saber and Chaos Buster. He also has a strong connection to 'Hopes and Dreams', which both are mentioned occasionally in Deltarune, where the unique item 'Last Dream' is mentioned as being 'The goal of Determination'--and Gerson's memorial bench in Deltarune, as well as Alvin's dialogue, implies a connection between dreams and stories, which are also linked to darkness and dark worlds...

So, we have a big, nebulous connection between Neo, 'everyone's hearts beating as one', Chaos, Dreams, Darkness, stories, Determination, and maybe Alphys. What about it? What makes you so sure this really does make Alphys the Knight?

Oh, sweet reader. I'm nowhere near done yet.

Alternate Universes

Hey, you know who the only character in Undertale to canonically mention alternate universes is?

"Don't be silly, Glass, it's only the most popular theory for the person who interrupts the Goner Survey--Chara!"

Nope! Well, maybe. It's not impossible, but I'm not sure that that was really intended to be the reading of that line. Chara in concerned with efficiency, and there is no efficiency in doing the same thing over and over and over. Chara's Post-No Mercy monologue is a mirror of Flowey's Post-Pacifist monologue. In my opinion, Chara's 'let us erase this pointless world and move on to the next' is their equivalent to Flowey's 'let Frisk live their life' and Asriel's 'don't you have anything better to do?' Many take this line as meaning you should move on to a new timeline or to Deltarune, but I take it as you should play another game. ANY game.

But curiously, one person who specifically talks about alternate UNIVERSES, and not just 'other timelines' like Sans, is quite often overlooked.

Sans has done research on timelines, but has very little concrete information about them, to the point he mistakenly attributes Flowey's resets to a murderous Frisk. He also may or may not be from a different universe, but has yet to outright confirm this. Alphys has, allegedly, done actual research on Alternate Universes, and feels confident in asserting that they exist, and daydreaming that someone in one of them watches over her, and is cute and interesting, and she has a crush on this person.

Alphys can be just as meta as Flowey and Sans when the proper opportunity presents itself.

Gerson and Gaster

Gerson and Gaster have a bizarre relationship, which I won't get into right now. Suffice to say, though, people have certainly picked up that Gerson sort of fills UT Gaster's 'role' in Deltarune, being a recently passed away and highly admired mentor figure, who leaves big shoes for Alphys to fill.

Yes, Alphys, specifically. In Undertale, Alphys is noted as someone Asgore hired to replace Gaster, and one Gaster Follower notes that she has 'big shoes to fill'. It is also wondered if Alphys will meet the same fate as Gaster. Meanwhile, mirroring this, in Deltarune, Toriel recommends Alphys to replace Gerson as a teacher, and she still seems pretty anxious about living up to Toriel's expectations, going so far as to lie about how 'normal' Kris is doing in class. (While Kris silently stares at Alphys, a trash sphere perched upon their head.)

This point of Alphys in Deltarune being a teacher leads perfectly into...

Alphys Frequents Where the Knight Has Been

One of the biggest arguments against Kris being the Knight is focusing heavily on timelines, and how unlikely it is Kris would be able to be at the Library to create a Dark Fountain at the proper time, as it's implied that Noelle and Berdly had their books and notes out on a desk when the Dark Fountain was created, rather than them walking into a pre-existing Dark Fountain. @vgfm's wonderful Knight Alvin theory also relies somewhat on Alvin theoretically being familiar with both the School and the Library, due to his father previously working at the school(and himself possibly attending as a child) and Berdly mentioning a 'Ms Boom' working at the library.

But there's someone who we know, without a shadow of a doubt, certainly frequents BOTH these places. Alphys.

For the school...of COURSE Alphys can roam around the school without any suspicion! She's a teacher! It's even likely that she's the one who locked the door on Kris and Susie, back in Chapter 1. It would be trivial for her to tell the class that Susie and Kris have been gone an awful long time and that she's going to go check on them, only to panic and lock the door on them later, and tell the class she couldn't find them. It's also known that she regulars visits the Library, as a review of MMKC II all but stated to be left by her can be found and read. Additionally, Alphys is also the very first to mention the internet outage...

Interestingly, that review is something that gets analyzed a lot, too. Some think MMKC I is meant to represent Undertale and MMKC II is meant to represent Deltarune. Some think it represents Frisk and Kris, respectively, or even UT Papyrus and DR Papyrus.

Personally, I wonder if Deltarune Alphys preferring much darker and more complicated fiction is reflected by her being a darker and more antagonistic fiction in this game, rather than an ultimately mislead scientist who made a mistake, but learns to improve herself with the support of her friends...

Dr. Andonuts...?

One of Toby Fox's earliest games, as some of us know, is the Earthbound Halloween Hack. It is effectively a 'bad ending' of the game Earthbound, which heavily inspired Undertale later on. It explores some similar themes as his other games, albeit in a more clumsy and edgy way, because he was much younger when he made it. @under-lore has also made some interesting analyses regarding how Halloween Hack and Deltarune's alternative routes are handled, and what this might mean for Deltarune having only 'one ending'. It's got a few other similarities, too: like how much its protagonist, Varik, looks like an earlier version of Kris with a different color palette.

Knight in a modern setting, shadowed eyes, neutral expression...hm.

Oh, I've talked a little about Halloween Hack and Deltarune, but I haven't told you what Halloween Hack's actually ABOUT, have you? Well, it's pretty interesting. So, in the original Earthbound game, the character Dr Andonuts, who is a short and eccentric scientist type with an estranged relationship with his son, puts the hero, his son, and their friends into robot bodies so they can go to a different planet to defeat the big bad, at the cost of never being able to return, right? And in the original story, a miracle happens and they do somehow return home?

Well, in the Halloween Hack, that doesn't actually happen. Tormented with grief at having effectively killed his son and said son's friends, Dr Andonuts locks himself away in his lab, and Varik is sent to go find him, accidentally learning about his past and secrets on the way, and as he does Varik realizes that Andonuts is a heavily closeted queer man who struggled to suppress that side of himself--hey wait a second, why does this sound so much like a character Toby's written...more...recently... In a game that isn't Deltarune...

Speculation

So, I've done my best to bring up and organize a lot of evidence for Alphys being the Knight, both in terms of things actually present in UTDR, and in terms of parallels to other games Toby's worked on. In this section, I'm going to talk a little about my own feelings regarding this twist, how great I think it could be, and what it means for me.

Alphys and Toriel are, in my opinion, the two most overlooked characters in all of Undertale. While the lion's share of the attention goes to Sans, a lot of attention is devoted to Gaster, Papyrus, and sometimes Undyne, Grillby, and Muffet too. Not only do Toriel and Alphys often get overlooked, it feels like everyone significantly downplays Alphys' achievements, too. This video by @megaderping goes into a lot of detail about the ways Alphys is overlooked, and the really interesting facets about her character.

First of all, I think it would be really cool if Alphys' character were brought into the spotlight in this way. I think her being the Knight also explore and expands upon important facets of her character initially introduced in her Undertale appearance, where she indulges in escapism by pretending to be a human's ally, and ends up projecting onto Frisk.

Second of all, I just...feel like there so much potential for really touching scenes between her and Kris?

I don't think the secret bosses are the way they are because they met the Knight. But they do have a recurring theme everyone has caught onto by now: all of them are trash. All are based on items often discarded. First a Joker Card, which is rarely used in play. Next Spam Email, which is universally disliked and never read. And Mike is commonly thought to be a Microphone, possibly using a pun based off 'video killed the radio star'. I've also theorized that Roulxs Kaard, based off a Rules Card, might disappear halfway through Deltarune to become a Secret Boss in a future Dark World.

Alphys has something in common with these Secret Bosses. She thinks she's trash. And Kris also seems to a very low sense of self-esteem too. Spamton projects heavily onto them, and Kris is more shaken by watching Spamton's defeat than anything else. Several players have likened Kris removing their soul as feeling like an analogy to self-harm, it's been theorized that Kris is depressed and suffers dysphoria, and while Kris being an enemy we fight in some route in a popular theory, personally I feel that such a fight coming to pass will mean Kris is making a suicide attempt. Furthermore, Kris has formed an incredibly strong bond with a brash and excitable rulebreaker--much like the bond formed between Alphys and Undyne.

I just think there's a lot of really sweet potential for a future scene. One where, instead of the Knight being a villain Kris needs to kill, as in a classical fairy tale...the Knight sees herself reflected in Kris, and chooses to stop. Chooses to instead talk to Kris about how hard it all is. About how sometimes you feel like trash, and just want to throw yourself away. About how you're always living in some genius', some mentor's, some golden child's shadow. And you love them, and you miss them so much, but you can never be anyone else, aside from who you are in relation to them. About not feeling comfortable in your own body, about feeling awful and needing to watch as people grieve and you KNOW what happened to their lost loved one, but if you tell the truth you have to fear they'd hate you.

I just. Have a lot of feelings about Alphys and Kris bonding and helping each other. About two Knights seeing themselves reflected in the other. We don't have that with Alvin. We don't know enough about Papyrus to know if we'll have it with him. We sure as hell can't get that with Kris being the singular Knight.

So, what's up with Castle Town Fountain?

Okay, I lied. I also believe in Knight Alvin.

Specifically, I believe that Alvin will be a red herring, and it will later be revealed that he was the one who (possibly using his father's hammer) opened the Castle Town Fountain.

Fountains reflect the will of their creator. And the difference between Castle Town and every other fountain(as reflected in the difference between Ralsei and every other Darkner) makes me think that Castle Town Fountain either appeared naturally, or was created by a third Knight: Father Alvin.

It's not just the fact that he's related to Gerson that makes me think Father Alvin created the Castle Town Fountain, specifically. I feel I actually also have some small, but interesting, pieces of proof that Ralsei might be, instead of 'Kris' idealized self' or 'Kris' monstersona' or 'Kris' idealized vision of Asriel'... Father Alvin's idealized vision of Asriel.

Think about how Alvin has talked about Asriel:

-Father Alvin mentions Asriel was in the choir. Ralsei prominently sings lullabies to put enemies to sleep.

-We also know his view of Asriel is incredibly kind, sweet, naive, and is at times driven by guilt. Possibly something of a pushover. He imparts an anecdote where Asriel confessed something mean he had done in a video game out of curiosity, and confessed for Kris when they repeated the act to troll him...despite Father Alvin saying their religion has no concept of sin.

-Likewise, Ralsei is incredibly kind and sweet, perhaps to the point of naivety. He's so intent on pleasing Kris and doing as they say that he actually apologizes when Susie forces him to learn R-Actions, and has an incredibly powerful sense of right and wrong, repeatedly encouraging Kris to be kind and pacify enemies, even if he won't stop them from attacking Darkners.

It's not much evidence, but I do think Father Alvin being Ralsei's creator has some small potential.

Conclusion

I hope this theory has been, if nothing else, entertaining to read! I don't fault anyone else for still sticking with Alvin or Papyrus as Knight Candidates, I would honestly be happy to see either theory confirmed, and even if Alphys turns out to be the Knight, I'd love to see both given larger roles later on. But I'd like to throw some female candidates for Knight into the ring--and while Mayor Holiday and Dess have both been speculated, we just know so little about each of them right now. And as I said, I think Alphys is perfectly primed to further expand and explore themes Deltarune is already exploring a lot.

I would really love to see more discussion, and perhaps even fanart, based around Knight Alphys, though! Whether or not in turns out to be correct, I think it really adds to some overlooked aspects of Deltarune, such as the powers of Neo and Chaos, and perhaps Alphys' connection to Asriel!

#undertale #deltarune #utdr #undertale meta #undertale analysis #undertale theory #deltarune meta #deltarune analysis #deltarune theory #alphys #alphys meta #alphys analysis #alphys theory #knight deltarune #knight dr #knight alphys #alvin #asriel #asriel dreemurr #god of hyperdeath #undyne #undyne the undying #mettaton #mettaton neo #power of neo #determination #kris #kris dreemurr #suicide tw #self harm tw

[midnightfox450]

My big undertale fandom hot take is that I think there is a direct correlation between the number of people who boil the game's message down to "violence bad" and entirely miss the message about how to care for things responsibly + the number of people who hate alphys specifically and grossly underestimate her importance in the game.

It is so clear within the text of the game that Alphys is supposed to represent the type of person who would love Undertale. She represents fandom. I think the reason why she is hated so much (besides misogyny) is because we don't want to admit that she's a commentary on us.

There is a reason why the deciding factor separating a pacifistic neutral run from a true pacifist run is the alphys date/true lab segment. There's a reason why monsters literally cannot be free until she learns to love herself. There is a reason why she is the character who created flowey. There is a reason why she is important. There is a reason why you are asked to care about her. Think on that.

(Anyway watch dorked's video essay on alphys and hbomberguy's old undertale video. They explain Alphys' thematic importance more succinctly than I ever could.)

#🤓☝️ 'technically you can befriend alphys and still get a neutral ending' shut up #unintentionally the true lab can be read as a pretty solid analogy for the fan response to undertale #maybe not unintentionally. toby did make the baby is you after all #undertale #utdr #undertale fandom #undertale meta #alphys #alphys undertale #alphys meta

[undertalethingems]

Unexpected Guests Chapter 10, Act Two: Page 6

First / Previous / Next

Out of sight doesn't mean out of mind.... Gaster won't let anything interfere with his goal.

Look for the next update on Nov. 16th!

#undertale #undertale comic #unexpected guests comic #frisk (undertale) #alphys (undertale) #it was nice to draw alphys nerding out -u- #that's a real theory she's discussing but it's basically one guy who advocates for it--typically not a good sign for validity in science >> #but it's great for worlds based on meta video games :> #i couldn't find an easy way to use undertale's source code so that's... just the opening narration in binary =u=;;; #so. no secrets there >>;

[megaderping]

Time and time again, people have tried to discredit Alphys' work in the Determination Experiments by crediting at least some of the True Lab entries to Gaster. A recent theory making the rounds has once again misled people into taking this as fact, and in this video, I take a critical look at the entries to prove that Alphys wrote all of them as well as debunking several of the arguments used to claim that Gaster was involved. Sources include both Undertale and Deltarune, the Undertale Gaster twitter takeovers, the Legends of Localization book, and the recent Valentines newsletter. My goal in this video is to put this argument to rest, as it relies on many cherrypicked pieces of information that really don't hold up under scrutiny and are a disservice to Alphys and Gaster both.

#undertale #alphys #dr. alphys #gaster #wd gaster #undertale meta #undertale analysis #utdr #true lab #dr alphys #video #Youtube

[carlyraejepsans]

do you think toriel and alphys would be friends..................

i think toriel and alphys should kiss

#dr versions specifically #but yeah!! i think they would. i think toriel would find her dorkiness charming in an endearing way #alphys would probably be a bit in awe of her. even in spite of the whole. yknow. getting immediately fired by her thing #suddenly got reminded of a character comparison meta i wanted to write about asgore/alphys & toriel/undyne and how they parallel each other #answered asks

[haunted-80s-arcade-game]

An Inconclusive and Slightly Unhinged Analysis of the True Lab Entries from Undertale: And Why They May Be Significant to Deltarune.

There is very little I can add about the True Lab entries that hasn’t already been pointed out by the fandom many many times before, so this analysis is more of a re-telling of EVERYTHING rather than a suggestion of brand new theories, however… I will be throwing in a few details I noticed while extensively combing through each lab entry that may have been missed by other people (but again, I highly doubt it. I haven’t searched through every thread on reddit or tumblr etc. so if I’m repeating anything that others have already mentioned, then I apologise. I’m mostly just writing this to get all of my thoughts in order before I explode).

Nevertheless, I’m going to order this in chronological order based on the most well known facts/speculations, down to the least well known, and the speculations that I myself have been recently thinking about.

So what are the True Lab Entries?

Basically, the True Lab is only accessible when carrying out the True Pacifist Route and reaching (almost) the end of the game. After defeating Omega Flowey, you can travel back to Hotland and enter Alphys’s Lab like normal. This time, however, you will find a note on the ground reading:

Hey,

Thanks for your help back there. You guys… Your support really means a lot to me. But… as difficult as it is to say this… You guys alone can’t magically make my own problems go away. I want to be a better person. I don’t want to be afraid anymore. And for that to happen, I have to be able to face my own mistakes. I’m going to start doing that now.

I want to be clear. This isn’t anyone else’s problem but mine. But if you don’t ever hear from me again… If you want to know “the truth”. Enter the door to the north of this note. You all at least to deserve to know what I did.

Upon entering the door to the north of the note (the door with a bathroom sign on it), you find yourself in an elevator, which almost immediately breaks down when you try to ride it, and sends you plummeting down into what is known as the True Lab.

The True Lab is basically just the creepy basement where Alphys does all of her more shady experiments involving determination, or at least, the place where she kept all the monsters who’ve had determination injected into them after death. Now, however, all of those monsters have turned into sticky, melted “Amalgamates” and are being hidden away from the rest of the Underground and in particular, their families, who regularly send letters to Alphys asking where their family members are, only to be completely ghosted by her. I’m going to safely assume that everyone reading this knows all of this and therefore, I don’t need to continue on with this very long-winded explanation.

The most intriguing part about the True Lab are the Lab Entries, which are basically updates about experiments being logged as “entries” that can be read as the player wanders around the True Lab. They are numbered, but this is both painfully significant and also potentially not significant at all, so bear with me here. I’ll get back to this.

Who writes the Entries?

This is where we start to get into the meat of the True Lab, and also down the rabbit hole of speculation, so pretty much nothing beyond this point can be considered canon, apart from a few select details.

At first glance, it seems that all of the entries are written by Alphys, and indeed, a lot of them certainly are. Entry Number 11 is certainly proof of this:

[“now that mettaton’s made it big, he never talks to me anymore… except to ask when i’m going to finish his body. but i’m afraid if i finish his body, he won’t need me anymore… then we’ll never be friends ever again… not to mention, every time i try to work on it, i just get really sweaty…”]

Obviously, we know that Alphys canonically created Mettaton’s body, so we know– at the very least– that this entry was written by Alphys. Because of this, people have assumed that she also wrote entries 9-13, and 18-21 (and maybe entry 16 and the second version of entry 17… again, I will get back to this). This is because the grammar and the capitalisation of letters at the beginning of the sentences (or rather, lack thereof) is the same throughout all of them (entry 16 is tricky to determine, because there are no sentences. It simply reads “no No NO NO NO NO NO”). Not only that but, again, a few have very Alphys-specific details in them, such as her spending time at the dump.

Now… this is where it gets Very, Very Interesting (for those who haven’t heard this shit thousands of times before because this is NOT new information, I promise). The rest of the entries are written COMPLETELY differently. I don’t just mean grammar-wise either (but it is noticeable that everything is properly capitalised, which tipped people off into thinking that these weren’t written by Alphys). What I haven’t really seen analysed before is how much the content of the entries don’t quite match up with Alphys’s timeline. Not to mention the fact that there are some very specific wording choices that caught my notice.

Entry number 4 and 8 are the ones that mostly confirm the theory that these weren’t written by Alphys, at least in my mind, by the simple fact that they mention Toriel (both directly and indirectly). Entry number 4 explains that the writer found the VHS tapes and we can glean from their wording that they watched them (why would they say that Asgore shouldn’t watch them if they didn’t know what was on them?) which means they heard audio footage of Toriel.

In entry number 8, they mention how they found a flower that appeared “just before the queen left”

which means that they are aware of Toriel, and may have even interacted with her, if they were around before she left as well. I say all this because, unless Alphys is lying at the end of the Pacifist Route, she doesn’t recognise Toriel.

(Yes it’s a screenshot from Jack’s playthrough, did you think I was gonna go through the full game for this one scene?)

None of the monsters really do, except for Sans, because Toriel left long before any of them were even born, judging by the timeline (which I’ll get to in a sec). Not only does Alphys not know the queen, but she also absolutely did not have anything to do with the first flower, and therefore did not create Flowey.

Think about the timeline for a second. Toriel left fairly soon after the original human’s death and after Asriel’s death, when Asgore started to take the souls of other human children. We can assume that, unless human children were literally dropping down every other week, it has been YEARS between the first human who fell and Frisk falling down. It could be anywhere from a few decades to potentially even centuries (I think I saw a timeline suggesting it had been about a hundred years since Chara fell?). Now, I’m sure many monsters probably have ridiculously long lifespans– clearly Toriel and Asgore do, but I honestly don’t buy the idea that Alphys was there when Asriel died and the queen left. I honestly don’t think she had anything to do with any of the experiments in the True Lab beyond the creation of the Amalgamates.

And, because of this, the reason why I’m sure she didn’t create Flowey is because Flowey had to be created fairly soon after Asriel died. We know that he was, because entry number 8 specifically mentions that the first flower was taken from the outside world, just after the queen left (“hang on,” I hear you say. “The entry says the flower appeared just after the queen left, not that it was taken. It could have been taken way later!” buttercups live for two months, next question). Now, this is where it gets a little tricky, because I think there are still some people who don’t quite understand how Flowey was created (believe me, I was one of them). The reason he has Asriel’s soul inside of him is because the dust from Asriel’s soul stuck to the flower and mixed with the determination that was injected into it. In entry number 10, which was written by Alphys, it’s mentioned that the seeds of the flowers “stick to you, and won’t let go” which is a nod towards how the dust stuck to the flower. This is why Flowey had to have been made very soon after Asriel’s death, which Alphys just was not there for (and yes, I know that isn’t technically confirmed canon, but I really don’t think the timelines match up in this case). Overall, I think it’s safe to assume that Alphys didn’t create Flowey.

However, going back to entry 10, we do know she worked on flowers. In fact, I think this is more solid evidence that Alphys didn’t specifically create Flowey, because the original experiment was on one, original flower. Whereas Alphys seems to work on multiple of them: “whatever. they’re a hassle to deal with anyway.”

I also don’t think that Alphys’s experiments on the flowers led anywhere, because the only reason Flowey turned into Flowey in the first place was because he had Asriel’s soul embedded inside him, not because he was a flower. The entries about Alphys’s experiments in the flowers seem to align with this, because there’s nothing in them that suggests the flowers ever did anything after being injected with determination.

“But wait!” Yes… I know. What about entry number 18?

Well… I don't think Alphys wrote this one either.

I know the lack of capitalisation suggests that she did, but I think this is a red herring. Think about it, does this read like Alphys? It’s very abrupt, very factual. There’s no concerned ramblings or anything, it is simply a grim statement that the flower has gone. Also, why does it only mention the flower? We know that Alphys has worked on more than one flower before, so the fact that she hasn’t clarified, or said a flower is suspicious, to say the least. It sounds more as if the person who wrote this is the person who experimented on the original flower (or at least was present during that experiment), aka Flowey.

Lastly, none of the other entries that Alphys presumably wrote ever mentions this flower again. True, neither do any of the entries after this one, but to be fair… this is the last entry that (possibly) isn’t written by Alphys.

So who did write the other entries?

Well, you can theorise all you want on this aspect, but personally I do believe it has to be W.D. Gaster and naturally that’s the most accepted theory. Obviously, we know for a fact that he was the Royal Scientist before Alphys, so it stands to reason that these are the notes from his experiments. This is where I’d like to actually talk more about the contents of these entries, though, and put together more of an idea of exactly what Gaster was working on, how it relates back to Alphys’s own experiments, and one theory that I made up while reading the entries (though I haven’t checked to see if anyone else has pointed this out before… perhaps I should have researched this more instead of just launching into my own ramblings).

First, Gaster specifically researched humans and their souls as part of his experimentation, including experimenting on the souls of the humans that fell into the underground. Again, this is why I don’t think Alphys had a hand in these experiments because– unless she’s still hiding a lot of things– she never mentions that her knowledge of humans really goes anywhere beyond what she’s seen in anime, let alone personal experience with the souls of the fallen humans.

This isn’t what interested me, though. The interesting thing, in my opinion, is where the experiments of Gaster and Alphys cross over each other: the monster souls that were injected with determination, an experiment which they both worked on. Here me out, but.. I don’t think these are the same monsters. I think Gaster experimented on dead monsters and their souls and the results were just as inconclusive and fatal as when Alphys tried to remake the experiment. However, I think the outcomes might have been slightly different.

I think Gaster specifically created the so-called Gaster Followers (and Goner kid). I think these are the monsters that he experimented on, and something went wrong, and now they don’t even exist anymore.

I’ll get more into my reasonings why in a sec, but I wanna go back to the timeline again. If Gaster experimented on Flowey around the same time as he experimented on the monsters, then these can’t be the same monsters that make up Alphys’s amalgamates. We’ve already ascertained that there could be a decades long gap between Gaster’s experiments and Alphys’s experiments, so how would Alphys still be getting regular, frantic letters from the same families of whom Gaster experimented on if their family members have been gone for decades? I’m not saying the families would have given up entirely (if they’re even still alive by this point) but the letters would certainly be fewer and farther between, surely. The letters Alphys is receiving are from families who have only just recently lost their family members, which doesn’t match up with the timeline if these are supposedly the same monsters from Gaster’s original experiments.

So, why do I think the grey characters are the original monsters that Gaster experimented on? Well, I’ll start with the most obvious connection first and talk about how Gaster specifically uses the word “goner” to describe the monsters he had been working on, which I think?? may have been the reason the fandom nicknamed the grey monster kid Goner Kid in the first place, but I could be wrong on that. I haven’t kept up with fanlore for a while. I think a lot of people assumed that Goner Kid was more of just a victim of timelines being reset over and over again, but I think it’s plausible that he could have been one of the monsters that Gaster experimented on before this happened, along with the Gaster Followers.

I can’t really back up this claim with evidence from the grey NPCs dialogue, except that they have the most information about Gaster, which would make sense if they actually interacted with him at some point or with his lab. I just think it’s never really talked about why these characters exist in the first place. Why have they been erased from existence when other monsters haven’t and why are they so connected to Gaster? If the experiment that Gaster was working on with the monster souls happened around the same time as the experiment that shattered him across time and space, it would make sense if the monsters had gotten caught up in this, along with everyone else in the lab at the time (Flowey perhaps? Judging by entry number 18, Flowey was still there when Gaster “fell into his creation and shattered” if we conclude that entry 17 is the moment that this experiment went wrong and, let’s be honest… There must be a reason that Flowey is able to control timelines. Almost like a side effect of something idk…). Unlike with Alphys’s experiments, we never actually see the outcome of Gaster’s. His entries talk about the monsters waking up and walking around, before we get entry 16 and 17 which cuts off his experiments for good before we’re able to find out if the results were the same as Alphys’s. Perhaps they would have been, had Gaster’s time fuckery experiment not got in the way and potentially wiped out both him and the monsters entirely. As a result, we get these grey NPCs who don’t look melted and fucked up like the amalgamates, but their existences have been destroyed.

Which brings me onto another point of interest. What is the timeline of the entries? And do Alphys’s entries even exist in the same timeline as Gaster’s?

My main reasoning for this is the fact that there are two entry 17s. One of which was definitely written by Gaster because… well, it has to be because I think if Wing Dings McGee wasn’t the guy who wrote entry 17 then the fandom will immediately lay down on the floor and die. The other, however, was written by Alphys and talks about the monsters she experimented on melting together:

monsters’ physical forms can’t handle determination like humans’ can. with too much determination, our bodies begin to break down. everyone’s melted together…

Now, yes… I know this entry doesn’t exist in the game and I know it’s technically a deleted entry that can’t be treated as canon. However, it does still exist in the game files. People can access it, and by this point, I think it’s common knowledge that Toby Fox does not just leave things behind on accident. Everything that can be accessed by the players is put there for a reason (unless we go with my other theory that Toby is a master of chaos who just likes to amuse himself, which… shouldn’t be ruled out tbh). How can there be two entry 17s and how come they overlap each other without ever mentioning the other. How can Gaster go on a one-man trek into a fucking black hole while Alphys is dealing with melted dogs at the same time? These entries did not happen together, and I definitely don’t think entries 9-13 happened before entries 14-16. I also think entry 4 is actually the first entry, because it mentions Gaster “researching humans to see if I can find any info about their souls” but the previous entries already talk about the “persistence” of human souls.

Also, I briefly mentioned how the voice of entry 16 couldn’t be determined, but what I find interesting is that it… technically has both Alphys and Gaster’s voice. I don’t know for sure, because this could absolutely just be me reaching into an abyss right now, but Toby Fox’s attention to detail has driven me completely insane so fuck it… the entry specifically reads “no No NO NO NO NO NO” in which the first no isn’t capitalised and yet the second one is.

It feels like their timelines are crossing, but never fully meeting, if that makes sense, and entry 16 seems to be the start of everything going wrong. It’s the last entry before (Gaster’s) entry 17 and after that we get the mysterious “the flower’s gone” entry which you know what? Hot take, but this entry has even more mystery surrounding it than entry 17 because WHO WROTE THIS ENTRY?? Gaster didn’t; by this point he’s already yeeted himself off into space, and Alphys didn’t because I already said that this isn’t the flower she was working on (and hey… before anyone says “ummm but she literally knows Flowey when Papyrus mentioned him, she freaked out about it”. Okay smartass just because she didn’t work on Flowey doesn’t mean she doesn’t know about him, Gaster could have kept notes lying around… give me a break I’m tired). Point is, I don’t think either of them wrote this entry.

And yeah okay I am about to bring up that old ass theory that Sans may have a connection to the True Lab Entries because he’s the only other character who doesn’t capitalise his letters (curse you MatPat for being a defining figure in my childhood) but like… guys. Remember I said that Gaster’s failed experiment may have had side effects on everyone in the lab, including causing Flowey to become aware of the timelines?? Yeah, how do we know that didn’t happen to Sans too? That experiment fucked everyone up, and Sans sure as hell knows everything that goes on in Undertale. There’s no way he isn’t connected to Gaster in some way or another, like there’s no argument about that atp we’ve been over this time and time again already. 

(oh and is now the time to mention that Gaster’s entries were the ones to mention the blueprints he used to begin his experiments on soul power, which means those blueprints predated Gaster’s experiments and also there are blueprints in the shed beside Sans and Papyrus’s house? I know the common theory was that Sans and Papyrus came after Gaster, but like… what if they didn’t? And I don’t mean that they were there at the same time, because I know about the “Gaster is Sans and Papyrus’s father” theory, but I mean like… what if Sans actually predates Gaster? I know it sounds really tinfoil hat-esque but we honestly can’t rule anything out by this point).

Someone wrote entry 18 and I don’t think it was Alphys or Gaster.

Okay cool, so what does this have to do with Deltarune?

Let me answer that with a different question:

What if Deltarune is the creation that Gaster fell into?

There’s plenty of theories out there about Gaster being connected to Deltarune, possibly even more so than he is to Undertale, but like… what if that’s because he literally created the whole universe? He fell into this parallel universe that he wasn’t supposed to enter and it caused him to shatter, throwing off timeline hopping side effects that may have caught both Sans and Flowey. I mean, Sans does show up in Deltarune, and it’s odd that he’s the only character there that clearly hasn’t been established as a long-time resident. He doesn’t really know anyone there, he’s asserted his store into the street by rubbing out Grillby’s name and he winks at the player when he says he doesn’t know you. He’s like… the only character there who definitely still remembers Undertale (and like I don’t think we talk enough about the fact that Papyrus just straight up isn’t there. Like, yeah we assume he’s locked away in his house and that’s his parallel version to his Undertale self– a shut-in introvert, but the “distant trousle of bones” line might suggest that he actually just isn’t there at all. How distant is distant, Toby?).

Like, it’s obvious by this point that Gaster has some major control over the Deltaverse, and that entry 17 has a lot of parallels to the creation of dark worlds, but we don’t really ask how that parallel world existed in the first place. We know that parallel timelines exist, but Flowey said nothing about parallel worlds. Flowey doesn’t even seem to know about parallel worlds because if he did, I’m sure he wouldn’t have gotten bored so quickly and turned into a homicidal maniac if he had whole other WORLDS to explore. How did this world suddenly come into existence if not a creation by the one and only W.D. Gaster?

And while we’re on the subject of funky little guys who haunt the Deltarune narrative, it’s funny how Dess has disappeared from the world, rather than explicitly died. There’s already a theory floating around that Dess is somehow connected to Gaster in the same way that Spampton and Jevil may be but again her circumstances feel… different somehow. Not only that but unlike Spamton and Jevil, Dess is potentially present in Undertale if we take the Undertale alarm clock dialogues from 2017 as anything to go by, wherein Sans mentions “that antlered girl and her big sis” (it may also be notable that it’s Sans who seems to know Dess and Noelle but… I’m too tired to go much further on this theory right now).

So, I think what I’m saying is, Dess is almost definitely incredibly significant, and is potentially linked to Gaster in more ways than we first thought, although again… we probably all did think this and I’m just late to the party (if you can believe it, I’ve been in the Undertale fandom since the game came out, but I never frequented Reddit or Tumblr at the height of the fandom so… I’m definitely repeating a lot of old stuff here).

Basically, this whole analysis is just a recap of everything we know about the Lab Entries, while also potentially throwing out a few tidbits that may interest Deltarune theorists far better than I could ever be.

Also the song Don’t Forget at the end of chapter 1? That’s 100% Dess and I take no other suggestions on that. “When the light is running low and the shadows start to grow” Hey that sounds fucking familiar *said with the most deranged smile on my face*

#undertale #undertale theory #undertale thoughts #undertale meta #undertale meta analysis #deltarune #deltarune theory #deltarune meta #wd gaster #dess holiday #sans #sans undertale #alphys

[toothzome]

I realized something a few months ago on my replay of undertale: do the monsters know that asgore killed 6 kids?

like, obvs SOME of them do. I'd put any older monster like gerson as a definete yes. but for our main cast besides toriel and asgore themself, do they actually know?

It just seems odd that no one every brings it up. They talk about how you're going to have to kill Asgore, how he HAS killed before, but they don't ever bring up the fact that his victims were kids. In fact, they think the fact that Frisk IS a kid will spare them.

Then I thought about the ages of the main cast of monsters, how Toriel was alive long enough to know, how Asgore (obvs) did the murder in the first place, but the rest of the cast don't even know who Toriel is. They're too young. Throughout their entire life, they haven't seen a single human fall since Frisk.

Nobody reports going to the coffin room, Undyne is shocked at the fact that you're a child and though she quickly swallows it down, she is severely off-put by the fact that she has to fight a kid, everyone fights you how they would fight an adult because they had no idea the last human would be a kid.

Did Asgore cover it up somehow? With the way all the belongings of the kids are discarded, with the fact that he never brings it up, the fact that he faces no consequence in the ending besides not being king anymore, I think that (even though it may or may not have been deliberate) he DID leave out the fact that he murdered 6 kids before to the newest generation of monsters. And Toriel was too depressed to ever properly bring it up...so the main monsters def don't know. Really makes sense how no one even talks about it in the end or the credits or anything.

#undertale #txt #undertale theory #undertale meta #toriel #undyne #alphys #undertale pacifist run #undertale pacifist route #i swear i swear i respect as//gore's character i just wish it was handled better #his entire thing with shame and guilt and thing would make it plausible that he might've hid away the truth #or maybe he killed so many children that he just forgot what he was even doing after a bit... #child murder #child death #child death mention #child murder mention #lemme know if i need to tag anything else #also lemme know if i missed anything important my memory sux

[honeybouquets]

What’s exactly up with Ice-e?

Ice-e is a mascot of a pizza place that first appears on a word search for a puzzle in undertale and the pizza place is then introduced as a place in deltarune’s home town 

What seems to be just a funny looking mascot for a pizza place, there seems to be a lot of odd things going on with this mascot

Starting from Undertale: 

The ice-e word search first appears in a puzzle set up by Sans and a fun event has the word search changed to have another snowman with the label of “Nightmare” 

Another fun event has Alphys making a call to order pizza only to mess up and send an image of a anime cat girl instead

Sans, Alphys, and the fun events are those that are closely connected to a certain man who speaks in hands

Likewise while ice-e is a mascot for pizza place, the pizza place does not exist in undertale and only appears in deltarune

Thus Alphys’s phone call likely isn’t the same Alphys in undertale whose own place show no indication of any pizza whatsoever but rather the Alphys in deltarune since the pizza place only exists in deltarune’s home town 

Next up is from deltarune

One of the rooms in hometown’s hospital has a pain scale that uses ice-e as a model 

Pain is often brought up with the certain man who speaks in hands: the pain flavor with option to accept possible pain and seizure in gonermaker, an ut error message of “the pain itself is reason why” and memory heads with lorem text that translates to “The pain itself teaches” 

The only other character that mentions pain is Spamton with “The smooth taste of neo, “wake up and taste the pain””  

A puzzle in chapter 2 has the answer from same ice-e word search and the puzzle’s changes to ice-e icon then then glitches out when completed, 

The same puzzle also has a chance to emit out the similar sound to Sans’s text grunt 

Burgerpants or Pizzapants calls the pizza place as hell which the only other characters to ever mention hell are Sans, Jevil, and Spamton 

He then mentions to Kris to “Enjoy your freedom while it lasts” and there’s how freedom is a recurring thing with the secret bosses

There’s graffiti in an alleyway at hometown that depicts ice-e next to an image of everyman, an enigmatic strange entity that first appears in reaper bird’s attack in undertale and then appears in Jevil’s attack to Queen’s attack in deltarune 

Toby once made a joke in the deltarune livestream that ice-e pizza place’s lair is apparently feels like a nightmare world where everything is just a bit off 

What’s up with this silly looking mascot of a pizza place that is connected with the certain man who speaks in hands and his associates both in undertale and deltarune anyways? Why is a pizza place mascot of all things has all of this connections? 

#deltarune theory #undertale theory #ice-e #sans #alphys #spamton #jevil #gaster #undertale meta #deltarune meta

[ariadnesweb]

I have listened to 74 and Skies Forever Blue.

Personally I... don't think either really has much of a connection to Deltarune? I just think sometimes, authors really like exploring certain themes over and over again. Toby seems to enjoy exploring metafiction in video games, and subversions about 'what the people who fill certain 'classic archetypes' 'classic archetypes' in stories. (And I can't blame him, personally. I keep thinking up and writing stories where the 'chosen one' is subverted somehow.)

Could Dess and Kris end up mirroring the Princess and Knight in 74? It's not impossible. I've actually heard the theory that Kris is opening Dark Worlds to search for Dess in isolation from the song 74 before now. I've also always wondered why the creator of the Dark Worlds is called the Knight, and not the Maker or Author or Dreamer or Dragon or something like that. If the person who happened to be creating Dark Worlds was introducing themself as 'the Knight,' that'd be one thing, but it strikes me as kinda strange that the role itself is called the Knight. Furthermore, as I've also theorized in isolation, if Dess is meant to be an Asriel/Flowey parallel, it's possible that she does want to be rescued deep down, but feels she doesn't deserve it and thus lashes out and shoves people away.

So, analyzing themes Toby has done before and a few things about Deltarune. It's not impossible. But we know so incredibly little about Dess that some of us can't even agree on her species, so this seems to be another thing that seems like a big stretch to theorize about. Even if I, personally, like this kind of character and subversion of a lot more than 'what if Dess was a HOOMAN'

...That sad. I'd actually say that Deltarune already seems to have two characters that fit this particular parallel and subverson. Berdly and Noelle on a Snowgrave work as slightly less of a stretch. But really not much of a 1-1 parallel. XD

Mmhmm!

My first thoughts after listening to 74 and Skies Forever Blue was that both of these protagonists have 'Asriel' Vibes - 74 & Asriel are twists on 'Fairytales' - 74 has a perverted Princess & Asriel is secret 'Frog Prince' - while Skies Forever Blue's Girl has a similar tragedy to Asriel - a videogame NPC who has fallen in love with a careless HeroTM - and turns self-destructive because of said love.

(Both Asriel & the Girl also have a moment where in lue of a missing protagonist, they take control of the videogame world around them, making themselves the Protagonist, if only for a moment.)

...Leads one to think that Toby Fox loves deconstructing childhood fairytales. Applies similarly to Toriel, Undyne, Asgore, and Chara - twists on the Witchy Stepmom, the Hero, the Evil Demon King, and the Player Character.

Kris is a 'Hero' - a Knight in Shining Armor - and the twist is in plain sight - they are a Villain too - the fountain creator - and capable of being pushed to hurt Noelle.

(Not a statement on whether Kris WANTS to be the Villain - I don't think they do - which is probably why they let themselves be possessed)

The Most Obvious 'Princess' is Noelle - she's fits the bill for nice, well-born, and extremely passive - and she reminds me a lot of the Princess from 74 - because underneath the role of Princess she hides a decently complex and powerful person - and her own ability to hurt people.

(Susie rounds out the triad by being a Dragon/Villain with the ability to be a Hero - though I think we're missing a good chunk of her story still for me to comment on this - right now I view her as a Shonen Hero (like Naruto) in denial of her role, who would rather give it up to Kris and Ralsei.)

(Ralsei is purposely making himself a Tutorial Tip Fairy - so there's not much going on there until he breaks and grabs protagonistdom by the reins.)

Pretty much on the nose that Berdly is a corrupted Knight with Noelle as his Princess - though I don't think he'll have a similar 'Role' in the future - I think he'll relax in future chapters - and his relationships with the class / his family explored more.

I like to think he has younger/older siblings, and that's why he's so pressured to stand out.

#deltarune #deltarune headcanons #deltarune meta #? #sure #uh I have more thoughts but they're more disconnected so I'm gonna tag ramble #i sometimes imagine that Kriselle will end up as a corrupted version of zelda/link even in the normal route #where kris is too wild of a hero to be a knight and noelle is too manipulative of a princess to be a damsel #i recommend scrolling through @ganymedesclock 's zelda tag to better understand what i'm talking about #uh i've been influenced by your own thoughts on Dess and I also think she's a flowey parallel #as someone who's hurt and angry about it and trying to distance herself from everything to cope #but i also like the theory that she's gaster's scientific apprentice - so i think of her as also an alphys figure #in that she has done Unethical Science to kickstart the main plot and is struggling to take responsibility for said Science #which i think contrasts with some of our only Dess Info in that 'she likes sports' #uh i also have Thoughts on the role of Knight #being akin to being the 'Player Character' #with 'Angel' being a role akin to a Player (ie Us) #but I'm gonna wait until later chapters to comment on THAT - simply because we lack so much info #and also 'Angel' & 'Knight' are symbolic roles independent of video game metaphors #Berdly is a 'Knight' after all #soilai's labyrinth #chatter

[anniesgameramblings]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMM_QSvgujw&t=22s&ab_channel=DoctorTyme

I’m having brainrot over this Neutral ending.

I 100% believe it might be the saddest for me,

& It’s DEFINITELY the worst for anyone who ships Alphyne as hard as I do because- they both just get such?? Shitty endings??

And I need to get my thoughts out about it so, here we go;

((TW: Suicide, Self-Hatred, Depression))

So, from Undyne’s perspective, she had been trying RELENTLESSLY to kill you - you were the final SOUL. The last human they needed. 

The time passage between SOULs collected seems to have been quite a loooong time. Gerson is the only monster you find that’s old enough to have even remembered a time when Toriel and Asgore were together, before Asgore waged war on humanity.

The Underground’s one hope has lied in getting to the surface. In collecting the 7 SOULs. Almost every Echo Flower in Waterfall says as much, and given its hearty population of monsters, we’re inclined to believe these must be relatively recent.

Canonically its been a thing long before Undyne even met Asgore (supported by the fact that she doesn’t recognize Toriel,)

So Undyne grew up amongst a population burning for this desire. And she was spurred to join the Royal Guard partially because Asgore trained her. King Asgore, the one who was supposed to free everyone. Not only did she feel a duty to her people, she felt a duty to her friend - a man who may’ve been something of a father figure to her.

And she didn’t become the Captain of the Royal Guard out of nepotism. You know, the group of knights exclusively dedicated to killing humans to collect SOULs (considering there’s very little in the way of crime in the Underground, and Toriel and Papyrus both concede that there’s no point for a Royal Guard without humans to fight).

She fought to the top with “grit and determination alone”.

All this to say; collecting all 7 human SOULs is her number one goal in life. Granted, she is as much a protector of her community, and even a “local hero” according to many - but that all comes with her very real determination to free the Underground. Which itself is born from a desire to give monsters hope, give her friends better lives, and take revenge on humanity.

Yes, she even carries a strong desire to make humanity pay despite never having even been alive to know them. Because she knows that when it comes down to it, the despair in the Undeground all goes back to them.

And this is putting aside her own actual respect for humanity, born from watching and reading Alphys’s “history books”.

Her commitment to her ideals is that strong.

So it can’t be stressed enough how monumental it was that she eventually managed to befriend Frisk. How much her love for a friend must have won out over such a strong desire to free her people.

She doesn’t even give up on collecting SOULs. I mean, how could she? She’s in this deep, and doesn’t see any other way to give the Underground the justice and security it needs. Simply resolving to take it from some “mean human”.

But she lets you go. Delays their freedom for a bit longer.

(Now, I know some people out there will interject to say she had already let you go when you decided to save her from heat exhaustion in Hotland. But I think I might make another post clarifying why I believe this wasn’t exactly the case. This one has gone on long enough 😫.)

Point is; in this ending, all of that is applicable. Everything she went through. And her final decision to spare you.

And then, you go and murder someone. 

Specifically, in this case, Mettaton. Granted, you could easily just get a neutral run by killing a Vulkin or someone. But it makes it all the worse if you JUST kill Mettaton.

Because how could she possibly know that you killed him?

(And she does know that, if indeed he’s the only person you actually kill, as evidenced by Papy’s dialogue.)

It stands to reason that only one person could’ve told her this information. Because the only one who was there to see the aftermath...was Alphys.

There was no one else in that room.

And take note of Papyrus’s choice of words; SHE SAID you killed someone.

Alphys did not announce this to the world, otherwise Undyne wouldn’t have needed to tell him

And hell, from Papy’s choice of words, it seems to imply that Undyne didn’t even tell Papyrus who it was you killed. Most likely because he’d be heartbroken to know a person he befriended went on to kill the celebrity he stans like nothing else. She wanted to spare her friend from that news, even though she’s currently going through the most miserable point in her life.

But anyways, the only thing that could’ve happened was that Alphys told Undyne this fact privately.

Imagine how terrible she would’ve felt. Knowing that she spared you, allowing you to kill someone. Someone who was the close friend of a girl she was in love with. How much that must’ve hurt Alphys.

And then Alphys “disappears”. Something Papy seems to believe you’re responsible for - likely then something that was told to him by Undyne, who also believes you were responsible for making Asgore disappear.

It’s hard enough on her to lose Asgore.

He was her mentor, one of the few to look upon this hotheaded kid with not just empathy - but with a promise to help her hone the abilities she longed to have.

It gets even worse when you consider the fact that she doesn’t blame you for his “disappearance” in a regular Pacifist route - obviously she only has a problem with this fact when she believes you killed him out of cold blood, versus self-defense (and she does seem to imply that she genuinely believes you killed him, regardless if you tried to).

She’s a knight, and does understand that some duels are inevitable. But in this ending, she gives you no such leeway. You killed Mettaton when you didn’t have to. You broke Alphys’s heart. And then you took two of the most important people in her life away from her.

Back to Alphys- because, god, does that part hurt.

I think it’s well known by now that in a couple of endings, it’s implied that Alphys commits suicide. She’s hinted at being suicidal in plenty of playthroughs, specifically:

When you call Undyne & Papyrus in the dump,

and when Alphys confronts you in the True Lab,

In three different endings, she “disappears” for unknown reasons. Two of them you have to have killed Mettaton, one of them you have to have killed Undyne.

So it stands to reason WHY she disappeared then.

And of course, these endings all must occur without you dating Alphys and leading to her solving her crippling self-doubt and guilt in the True Lab.

But think about why she takes the decision to end her own life in THIS Neutral ending.

First of all; you’ve killed someone who was one of her only friends, Mettaton. Granted, he stopped treating her like one when he made it big, but he’s one of the only recent positive contacts she had. Other than perhaps Bratty and Catty, although this friendship was implied to have fizzled out way before Mettaton’s.

But I don’t think it’s just that she misses Mettaton.

No, she feels responsible for his death.

Think about it from her perspective - in this run, you aren’t a cold blooded killer for the majority of it. Alphys never sees you kill. She seems to believe you’re this wonderful anime-esque protagonist who goes around befriending everyone you meet.

And so, she starts up an elaborate scheme to become your friend and convince you to not kill Asgore. She hires Mettaton to be the “villain”. To be a malfunctioning robot who she asks you to defeat.

Then, all of a sudden, in the climactic showdown, where Mettaton reveals she was supposed to come in and “save” you from her - the door locks.

She later calls you, saying she can’t see what’s even going on in there, and reveals how to make him “vulnerable” enough to keep him from hurting you (which she seems to believe is certainly a possibility) - 

And then you kill Mettaton.

She’s not just faced with the loss of her friend, but with the fact that she CAUSED it. That she was the one who made Mettaton the “villain”. Who ended up putting you both in harms way.

She doesn’t even blame you for killing him. Why would she? No, she blames herself. Like she always does.

She even tries to dissuade any guilt you might feel by brushing it off.

And it all becomes too much for her. At some point, she tells Undyne the news, which no doubt makes Undyne blame herself for even letting the human go. And then...she ends it all.

And Undyne has to know why. She has to know why Alphys ended up taking her life. How heartbroken Alphys must’ve been to have lost Mettaton - she may’ve even let onto the fact that she believes it was all her fault.

And it’s all “because” Undyne let you go.

All she can do is mumble on about how she wasn’t able to “protect her”.

Undyne, who’s made it her mission to protect everyone. Who saw Alphys as a beautiful soul who was more than her insecurities. Who served as a positive force in her life, and in some timelines, the kickstart to getting Alphys to start working on herself.

SHE thought it was HER job to protect Alphys. And that she failed at it. Felt she was partially responsible for her death.

And that she never even got to tell her she was in love with her.

With Alphys and Asgore gone, the guilt of their disappearances weighing on her mind - as well as the death of another person that could’ve been prevented...

She gives up.

Think about that, after all the determination she’s had in the past - hell, in every other playthrough, she gives up.

All that hope has been washed away.

Every other neutral ending features Undyne keeping on in some fashion - even if she’s wallowing in despair. Even if she’s about to die.

Overthrowing the Queen when she attempts to call off killing humans (in an ending where you’ve killed Papyrus, Asgore has disappeared, and Alphys has disappeared);

Promising to destroy you (after having killed non-Boss monsters after befriending her);

Literally developing Determination out of the sheer will to live despite you killing her (in any run you kill her in);

I don’t think I need to even say anything about the No Mercy run-

But this is the only run she gives up on it all. On revenge, on finding a way out of the Underground, on thinking she’ll ever be able to protect anyone again - or forgive herself for letting all her friends get hurt...for letting one of her closest friends hurt herself...

It’s fucking heartbreaking.

#undertale #undyne #alphys #alphyne #analysis #papyrus #asgore dreemurr #meta #rambling #tw: suicide #tw: death #tw: depression #undertale analysis

[stainedglassthreads]

Something something, idealized people who you may or may not ever actually meet...

#undertale #undertale meta #undertale analysis #flowey #alphys

[inbarfink]

Any analysis of how Undertale deals with Pacifism and how it tries to guide the Player towards it has to take a deep look at Papyrus. Because Papyrus is the one character in the game who will never kill, the one actual ‘True Pacifist’ in the game’s main cast. 

I mean, the Player can be an even bigger Pacifist. Papyrus does still FIGHT, and the Player can get through an entire run without draining a single sliver of HP. But… they can also be the world’s biggest murderbastard and literally stab reality to death. 

Toriel would very much like to not kill, but she is also fully capable of doing so.

Same with Asgore, but he has a lot more actual blood on his hands. Undyne and Mettaton are both fully 100% willing to kill to accomplish their goals. Sans is non-violent in most runs because he’s too lazy and depressed to do anything, and when he is motivated into actions - it is in the form of a FIGHT to the death. Alphys… the timeline is a bit fuzzy cause both she and Mettaton love lying so much, but it seems like she did sincerely add deadly weapons to Mettaton cause killing humans would make him more 'useful' and then had second thoughts once she developed a parasocial relationship with the Human Child and THEN she and Mettaton started hatching their little play-acting plan. I think??

With Papyrus there is NONE of this ambiguity, we know for sure - no matter what timeline or what may come - The Great Papyrus will always choose MERCY.

And the interesting thing about that is on a Meta-Sense, Papyrus is a very rare example of the game giving MERCY towards the Player. 

Because the game starts out being really obtuse with the Sparing mechanic and how it works. If you want to be a Pacifist in Undertale from the get-go, you’re gonna have to work for it. You're gonna have to figure it out on your own and commit to it and believe that it's possible. It's basically a test of your own belief in non-violence and your moral integrity. Then, the RUINS end with the Toriel boss battle - in a way, that’s probably the hardest Sparing puzzle in the whole game. And it’s very very easy to accidentally kill her. (I’d almost say that’s the intention of the battle, to try to goad the Player into Resetting so they can see how the game remembers across RESETs)

And then we have Papyrus, and it’s not just that his ‘Sparing Puzzle’ is something as simple as outlasting him and letting him run out of dialogue - and it’s not just that he’s the only boss that will just give up and let you continue if you lose to him enough times. it’s also that, just as Papyrus is the only boss incapable of accidentally killing the Player - he’s also the only boss that the player is incapable of accidentally killing.

(Okay, fine, to be pedantic, there’s also Asgore)

I mean, the Player can certainly kill him if they want to - but draining Papyrus’s HP just makes him skip through his battle dialogue right to the end of it. It’s designed in such a way that, no matter what Route you're on and no matter what approach you take with Papyrus - you will always end up on this screen.

Unlike basically any other Monster in this game, including the major boss battle just before him - you can’t kill Papyrus accidently. You can't kill him without also having Sparing him as an option. The game kinda treats killing Papyrus as one of the Worst Things You Can Do because killing Papyrus will always be a deliberate, considered action done to a person who will not kill you and who has stopped wanting to FIGHT and has extended a hand of Mercy. With the game clearly communicating what you need to do to Spare him at that moment.

And that means that - even if you killed before, even if you don’t have the patience of a True Pacifist, even if you spent all this time in the game without even trying to engage with the Sparing mechanic… as long as you don’t want to be a Huge Rat Bastard, the game is basically gifting you with the very very easy option to not be. Being a Pacifist in Undertale is usually a challenge - a puzzle to be solved, a test to pass. But as long as you aren’t intentionally trying to be the Worst Person - the game is basically giving you Papyrus. 

If you accept his Mercy, you are accepting the game’s Mercy. That sort of benefit-of-the-doubt assumption that maybe all of the LOVE you might have accumulated so far was all due to honest mistakes or panic or an attempt in self-defense. That you still deserve this one chance to prove that you are not intentionally, maliciously cruel - or at least not like the Worst Person in the World. Even if you did kill before, you still deserve at least one friend.

And Sparing Papyrus leads you to his wonderful Hangout/Dating Sequence and to his Phone Calls and they all add so much wholesome charm to the Undertale experience and no matter what happens Papyrus will always think the best of the Player and he will always trust them and it also makes Sans also kinda your buddy by default. And more than just adding a little bit of wholesome charm into even the more LOVE-filled Playthroughs, I think this is meant to try and incentivize these players into trying out the Mercy mechanic a bit more.

Whatever it’s, like, for future playthroughs or Resetting the game right there to try a True Pacifist Run right there and then or just trying to be a little kinder for the rest of this current playthrough - especially since there’s an emphasis about the close friendship Papyrus has with the upcoming boss Undyne, and to a lesser extent with his idol and next-next boss battle Mettaton. It’s like “well, if you didn’t figure out how to spare before, this is how you do it? And isn’t it nice to have a friend? Isn’t it nice to not have to kill this lovable skeleton man? You should do this more often wink wink nudge nudge!”

And it’s like… all of Papyrus’ loved ones care about him so much but they also look down on his pacifism. They see his inability to kill and desire to make friends as simple naivete and that’s why all tend to hide the truth from him all the time. About what will happen to the Human he will capture, about what his new Human friend might’ve done, about the fact that they view him as so naïve. 

They admire it on some level, that’s why they want to protect it, but they also see it as a weakness which is why they want to protect it by lying to him all the time. But, you know, Undyne says that if Papyrus goes into battle he’ll be ‘ripped into little smiling shreds’ and that is certainly what happens every time a Player chooses to refuse Papyrus’ Mercy and the game’s Mercy and press that FIGHT button…

But have you thought about all the times that doesn’t happen? All the careless or violent players who were offered that skeletal hand of friendship, accepted it and then carried that offered kindness forward for the rest of the game? All the players motivated to do good for the sake of their buddy Papyrus? All the Murder Routes stopped because the player just didn’t have it in them to kill someone who believes in them so earnestly?

Like, no, it’s not a surefire thing - especially since Papyrus has so much less narrative power than the Actual Unkillable Time God that is the Player. But it happened, and it happened many many times to many players. Papyrus offered Mercy, the game offered Mercy. And much like Frisk’s Pacifism, it comes from a place of seeing the honest goodness in your ‘enemy’ and can inspire them to become a better person - this little sparkle of goodness being passed forwards. 

And I think that’s beautiful, even if it didn’t happen in every timeline. Any potential future where Papyrus’ kindness can have such an effect on the Player and thus the entire trajectory of the Underground validates his kindness and pacifism on some level - even if there are also always the potential worlds that it backfires completely. 

And there’s also one other way in which the Great Papyrus Proves Pacifism Pays. One that is a bit more practical, perhaps. And one that Papyrus himself is not even aware of. 

Papyrus’ boss battle can be a surprisingly challenging one specifically because he is the only one who doesn’t kill the Player.

Like there is a reason why Papyrus will just offer you to skip his Fight after you lose to him three times, because if he didn’t do that - there’s an honest risk that the Player can get stuck in a much stuckier way than anywhere else in the game. 

Because, like, for basically any other character in the game, being killed is the Worst Thing that could ever happen to them. For everyone except the actual Player Character because we are an Actual Unkillable Time God and dying is nothing more than a minor annoyance that sets you back to your last SAVE Point. So, leaving aside Papyrus’ admirably kind intentions - there is not much material difference from the Player’s perspective between getting Captured and getting a more traditional GAME OVER. Except…

Except getting Captured does not undo everything that happened in your inventory during the battle. In every other Undertale battle, if you use all of your items but still lose - the GAME OVER at least means you get your stuff back. But because Papyrus doesn’t kill you, any healing item you’ve used during the battle is still used. I have watched so many Undertale Let’s Players waste all of their valuable items on their first Papyrus battle and then have to face him again without them and thus do even worse in their second go… and then their third go... and thankfully then Papyrus offers them to skip the fight.

And while that technically can be circumvented by just manually closing the game and opening it back again on their pre-battle SAVE Point, a lot of players are gonna reflexively Save over it if they pop over to the Shop or the Snowed Inn before their second attempt at the battle. If Papyrus didn’t offer that chance to skip his battle, it could’ve easily become a softlock situation for a huge chunk of players - because he doesn’t kill the Player.

Most of Undertale deals with the value of non-violence from a standpoint of morality and kindness and personal connections. Since most people do die when they get killed. But when dealing with an Unkillable Time God like the Player, Papyrus proves that not-killing might actually be the most practical solution.

Of course, it doesn’t seem like Papyrus is aware of any of this. From his perspective, he is just offering genuine mercy to a being just as ephemeral as he is. But it accidentally turned into one of the most effective methods of blocking the Player’s way… at least he didn’t offer us an opt out so soon after that. 

And it’s interesting when comparing him to how his brother Sans - one of the few people actually aware of the existence of SAVEs and RESETs - deals with the Player. Because the Sans boss battle at the end of the Murder Route is entirely based on the concept that death is nothing but an annoyance to the Player. Sans is less trying to kill the Player (the way Undyne the Undying did), he is simply trying to annoy the Player into a ragequit. But he is still killing the Player.

Now imagine a Sans battle where he has all of his usual annoying tricks, but also instead of killing you - he captures you just like his brother would’ve in a happier timeline. And while it’s not a fool-proof plan to stop the Player in their tracks - he could very easily stick them in that sort of softlock situation where they have to battle him again and again without any Healing Items. Forcing them to either abandon the game or RESET the whole world back the way it was - just like Sans wants them too. 

But instead, by killing the Player, he is just allowing that perfect second-third-fourth-fifth-sixth-try where they get all of their Stuff back. And he does actually knows that. And why doesn’t he do that? (Speaking here from an in-universe character study perspective. Obviously the Doylist answer is that the game doesn’t want to Softlock you even in the most deliberately-frustrating part of the game).

Maybe, even though he intellectually knows that killing the Player will be of no help - he still does it because he wants to. Because he just wants to get back at the evil murderous monster that took his brother from him and destroyed his entire world even if he knows it’s actually ineffective. And this thirst for bloodshed is, ironically, blinding him from a new exciting way to actually practically stop that murderous bastard who is themself motivated entirely by bloodshed. 

Maybe he just can’t do something like that. Reducing an enemy to exactly one HP and then stopping is not a feat anyone else in the game is capable of pulling off - even the ones who would obviously use such a thing (like Toriel or a Player with a Pacifist intentions). Maybe it’s something that requires a lot of hard practice and discipline and carefulness, that Sans never thought to put in because he didn’t see it as a useful skill the way Papyrus did. 

Maybe that wouldn’t have worked anyways. After all, and that’s something I kinda touched on in a previous Overly Long Rambly Hot Take - Sans’ War of Attrition against the Player is greatly helped by the fact he can’t remember every single previous try and so he can’t get exhausted the way the Player can get. Obviously, without a GAME OVER induced RESET that will not apply. Which is especially notable because… Sans’ laziness is literally what brings him down at the end of that Boss Battle. 

So maybe, while Papyrus, as long as you decline his offer to skip the battle, is capable of offering just the same Battle as before over and over and over again.... It’s possible that Sans just won’t be able to pull off two or three or more battles of the same intensity and difficulty in a row without a RESET to undo his own exhaustion. 

But I think it’s at least worth considering the option, y’know? That after all this time of viewing Papyrus’ kindness as sweet-and-yet-kinda-foolish-naïveté - that exact viewpoint made Sans overlook the perfect solution to dealing with his little Murderous Time God problem. Cause he just never considered that while killing might be fully morally justifiable in this situation and very very satisfying, that does not necessarily mean it is actually the most practical solution. And that maybe, in a weirdly twisted way, Pacifism WAS the answer.  

#undertale #ut #utdr #under tale #papyrus #the great papyrus #papyrus undertale #papyrus ut #sans #sans undertale #sans ut #sans the skeleton #papyrus the skeleton #undertale analysis #undertale meta #genocide route #genocide run

[dietchapstick]

Just starting thinking about this again and thought I'd send me thoughts into the void.

Everyone talks about how Spamton and Jevil know they're in a game cause of gaster or whatever. Its undeniable that gaster is involved in Deltarune in some way. But honestly I don't think the "revelation" both characters go through is necessarily meta. Jevil is mentioned to see the world as a big game, but that dark world is literally based off cards, checkers, and chess. Games. What particularly grabs me is what Spamton says. "So big we'll stand up tall and see past the dark. Stand up with our heads in the clouds and look into [[H E A V E N]]". This line feels like it's refurring to the light world. We haven't had anyone or any point in the game where the topic of darkners being objects is really discussed. The king mentioned how the lighterns abandoned them (the extra classroom going unused) and mentions something about their roles or purpose in his fight. But we don't really get details as to what degree most darkners understand their existence as objects for lightners. I think that is the true revelation jevil and spamton go through. I think spamton believed that if he fused with a lighter's creation (the neo suit which is said to be a lightner's creation, I assume mettaton or alphys doodled it in ms paint) he would hold enough..Lightner energy or something..to remain in his "character form" and leave the darkworld.

Or it could just be a whole meta thing like in undertale I would be be surprised, but I also wouldn't be surprised if Toby Fox wanted to subvert our expectations.

#deltarune #undertale #spamton #jevil #deltarune theory #bullshit #a chapstick original

[megaderping]

True Lab is one of Undertale's most iconic moments and a fantastic example of the game's use of subtlety in conveying atmospheric horror. In a fandom with works that lean so heavily into in your face darkness, blood, and death, I thought it would be worthwhile to return to the original game and analyze the techniques Toby used to give True Lab its eerie atmosphere. In this analysis, I discuss these techniques in depth, taking into account the buildup to True Lab and the way it plays with player comfort and expectation.

#undertale #undertale meta #undertale analysis #true lab #alphys #amalgamates #video #Youtube

[carlyraejepsans]

So you know how comic sans is a dylexia friendly font

OOOOOOK hold on let me fetch you the plot sketch from my notes app

yeah :]

#it's kinda really silly but also not. because like it's about when the penny drops for sans that there's never going to be another reset #(as far as he can tell. that is: we're not in a meta setting that takes the player into account) #and there's he and alphys being nerds together. and both of them getting better #and a smidge of ow!sans mentioned at the end #answered asks #mtt game show #mywriting #sans #alphys #undertale

[gaylordscooter]

Log of the Multiverse: Cross and XChara

Cross and XChara (usually referred to as just "Chara") both hail from Xtale, an au that's fallen into ruin ever since the creator, XGaster, was contained.

I was shocked to find out that the creator was one of the characters in their universe, but Ink told me he was a false creator, as he was merely a puppet to the true creator that lies beyond our realm and comprehension. It's like how a meta character in a piece of fiction can be written to act "aware", but it's still being written by somebody. Ain't that weird?

Don't think about that for too long.

So Xtale was kinda an empty void after XGaster was taken care of—that's the fault of Cross who killed like, all of his friends (but xpapyrus was the one who killed basically everyone else. GEEZ i couldn't imagine my brother killing a fly! hurting a fly definitely. but killing?? yeesh) and then absorbed xfrisk's soul because he thought he'd be able to OVERWRITE (<- a mechanic their world has where you can basically do whatever the hell you want, or something) his world turned out he couldn't do that sooo.

yeah he was NOT happy about losing his world (and somewhat playing a part in its downfall)

and also xchara's linked to frisk's soul for some reason. so he kinda just had xchara haunting him for awhile.

Luckily! Ink, Dream and I were able to help Cross cope through his loss!

It took so much time. like so much.

He eventually came to accept his world would never come back, but he got an idea. Since his universe couldn't be repaired to what it was before, why not create something new? Of course he couldn't create new people but after learning there were more people that have lost their homes like him (and me) he thought: why not make this place a safe haven for people like him?

Ink encouraged him. He was Very enthusiastic about it actually, he even helped with decorating the place (as in he painted every building. and all the scenery).

Of course, Cross isn't like Dream and Ink, who can sense negativity or when someone's world is destroyed, so those two tend to give him a heads up on where to go (or they just drop people off themselves)

At first we've just been calling it "Xtale" but obviously the place has changed drastically so we decided to call it something else.

unfortunately somehow all of us (even the ARTIST) weren't able to come up with that creative of a name and settled for calling it "the hub"

Now, I didn't forget about XChara, they were getting tired of having to haunt Cross all the time, so I decided to take up a little project.

And by me, I mean I asked Alphys (from a post-pacifist undertale au, we're buddies. yes i'm allowed to be friends with her because they're no longer following the game's script) to help me make a robot body. i made a prototype that ended up being completely non-functional. so alphys kindly made a complete one that WAS functional for me. even though i insisted she didn't need to do that but she said she enjoyed doing it and that i would've popped blood vessels i didn't have if i kept trying to make one (she's right. i was never that big of an engineer)

so the hard part was separating cross and chara. except it WASNT because their souls are WEIRD and i literally just wrenched their pieces apart like lego pieces it was crazy. unfortunately they still only have half of each of their souls. but hey, they can live just fine like that! they're just not as strong as they would be.

well, mainly in cross's case. chara has a cool robot body now that's loaded with defense.

So anyway, yeah! That's about it.

Pretty happy outcome for these guys, despite all the hardships of course.

But I heard from Ink, in this other multiverse this thing called the "X-Event" occurs. It sounded pretty rough from what I remember. But fortunately our Ink isn't like the one in that multiverse! He's too much of a softy

#blue's (totally not diary) log