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stainedglassthreads · 8 months

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Knight Alphys Master Theory

I acknowledge the popularity of and evidence for Knight Alvin and Knight Papyrus. But let's put them aside for a few moments.

Full lengthy of the theory will be kept below the cut, as it gets quite long, but have a quick banner.

The True and Neo Chaos

Let's begin with something interesting. There have been a couple of words showing themselves as fairly prominent amongst the Secret Bosses, that people have picked up on: those words being Neo and Chaos. Jevil references both, with his endlessly spouting about Chaos, and his including 'Neo' into a few of his attack names. Spamton also refers to his new body as 'Neo'. But the secret bosses are not the only area in the Dark World where these things are mentioned.

Spade King is, so far, the most ardent supporter of the Knight, and is incredibly excited by the concept of spreading darkness across the Light World. His battle theme is entitled 'Chaos King'. Queen also gets in on the fun--she talks a lot about a Neo Fountain, and explains how Determination, a trait found in all Lightners, is a vital component in the creation of both a Dark Fountain and a Neo Dark Fountain.

So, with King being the only one confirmed to have met, spoken with, and even received help from the Knight, and Queen having witnessed them make a fountain, it seems 'Chaos' and 'Neo' might be very important terms where the Knight is concerned, and that the Knight will also be linked with Determination.

You know who's linked with all three of these things in Undertale? Alphys.

"But Glass!" my hypothetical audience says in confusion. "That makes no sense! Alphys did the DT experiments, sure, but she's hardly particularly determined. And concepts of 'Neo' and 'Chaos' don't come up in Undertale at all, let alone in connection with Alphys of all people! Really if anyone was dt-connected and likely to show up in Deltarune, wouldn't it be Sans or Chara--"

Au contraire, dearest darling readers! As we all know, the term 'Neo' does show up once in Undertale, with a very blatant connection to Alphys!

As we all know, Mettaton Neo is Mettaton's original body, created by Alphys to allegedly be a human eradication robot, which the ghost Mettaton inhabits and fuses with. It's meant to be his 'ideal body', even if he doesn't really want to kill humans.

However, Mettaton Neo has links with a few other monsters, besides Alphys... Who also have interesting links with Alphys.

Now, if you'll notice, all three of these monsters have some interesting similarities.

All three have a normal form, and a significantly more powerful form you fight under special circumstances. Undyne, Mettaton, and Flowey all talk about protecting or killing both humans and monsters--and both Undyne and Flowey(before the Photoshop Flowey boss fight) use the words 'Humans. Monsters. Everyone,' before their respective fights. Undyne feels the powers of 'everyone's hearts beating as one,' and Asriel mentions something similar before using everyone's souls to break the Barrier.

Those are some similarities in terms of circumstances. But they also have a lot of similarities in terms of appearance. All have a prominent heart icon in their chest, huge shoulder spikes, and inverted sclera. Undyne and Mettaton very prominently have something weird going on with one eye. Mettaton and Asriel have very big and flashing wings, while Undyne and Asriel have big white gloves with more heart markings.

These three also have another, more subtle connection: all of them are connected to Alphys in some way, be it major or minor.

Mettaton Neo's body was built by Alphys. Undyne convinced Alphys not to commit suicide, and thought Alphys has many crushes, she's the crush who needs to reciprocate Alphys' feelings for Frisk to learn more about the Amalgamates, Flowey, and the Tapes, opening the way for Flowey's master plan and the True Pacifist Ending. And of course, Asriel was revived by Alphys, and she's the only one who realizes how bad things are about to get when Papyrus mentions a 'little flower' told him to gather everyone.

Wrapping this all up, while Mettaton's name in this form mentions Neo (with his theme also mentioning it), and Undyne and Asriel are blatantly linked to Determination, Asriel also has a very interesting hint at things: a number of his attacks use the word 'chaos' in their names. Notably Chaos Saber and Chaos Buster. He also has a strong connection to 'Hopes and Dreams', which both are mentioned occasionally in Deltarune, where the unique item 'Last Dream' is mentioned as being 'The goal of Determination'--and Gerson's memorial bench in Deltarune, as well as Alvin's dialogue, implies a connection between dreams and stories, which are also linked to darkness and dark worlds...

So, we have a big, nebulous connection between Neo, 'everyone's hearts beating as one', Chaos, Dreams, Darkness, stories, Determination, and maybe Alphys. What about it? What makes you so sure this really does make Alphys the Knight?

Oh, sweet reader. I'm nowhere near done yet.

Alternate Universes

Hey, you know who the only character in Undertale to canonically mention alternate universes is?

"Don't be silly, Glass, it's only the most popular theory for the person who interrupts the Goner Survey--Chara!"

Nope! Well, maybe. It's not impossible, but I'm not sure that that was really intended to be the reading of that line. Chara in concerned with efficiency, and there is no efficiency in doing the same thing over and over and over. Chara's Post-No Mercy monologue is a mirror of Flowey's Post-Pacifist monologue. In my opinion, Chara's 'let us erase this pointless world and move on to the next' is their equivalent to Flowey's 'let Frisk live their life' and Asriel's 'don't you have anything better to do?' Many take this line as meaning you should move on to a new timeline or to Deltarune, but I take it as you should play another game. ANY game.

But curiously, one person who specifically talks about alternate UNIVERSES, and not just 'other timelines' like Sans, is quite often overlooked.

Sans has done research on timelines, but has very little concrete information about them, to the point he mistakenly attributes Flowey's resets to a murderous Frisk. He also may or may not be from a different universe, but has yet to outright confirm this. Alphys has, allegedly, done actual research on Alternate Universes, and feels confident in asserting that they exist, and daydreaming that someone in one of them watches over her, and is cute and interesting, and she has a crush on this person.

Alphys can be just as meta as Flowey and Sans when the proper opportunity presents itself.

Gerson and Gaster

Gerson and Gaster have a bizarre relationship, which I won't get into right now. Suffice to say, though, people have certainly picked up that Gerson sort of fills UT Gaster's 'role' in Deltarune, being a recently passed away and highly admired mentor figure, who leaves big shoes for Alphys to fill.

Yes, Alphys, specifically. In Undertale, Alphys is noted as someone Asgore hired to replace Gaster, and one Gaster Follower notes that she has 'big shoes to fill'. It is also wondered if Alphys will meet the same fate as Gaster. Meanwhile, mirroring this, in Deltarune, Toriel recommends Alphys to replace Gerson as a teacher, and she still seems pretty anxious about living up to Toriel's expectations, going so far as to lie about how 'normal' Kris is doing in class. (While Kris silently stares at Alphys, a trash sphere perched upon their head.)

This point of Alphys in Deltarune being a teacher leads perfectly into...

Alphys Frequents Where the Knight Has Been

One of the biggest arguments against Kris being the Knight is focusing heavily on timelines, and how unlikely it is Kris would be able to be at the Library to create a Dark Fountain at the proper time, as it's implied that Noelle and Berdly had their books and notes out on a desk when the Dark Fountain was created, rather than them walking into a pre-existing Dark Fountain. @vgfm's wonderful Knight Alvin theory also relies somewhat on Alvin theoretically being familiar with both the School and the Library, due to his father previously working at the school(and himself possibly attending as a child) and Berdly mentioning a 'Ms Boom' working at the library.

But there's someone who we know, without a shadow of a doubt, certainly frequents BOTH these places. Alphys.

For the school...of COURSE Alphys can roam around the school without any suspicion! She's a teacher! It's even likely that she's the one who locked the door on Kris and Susie, back in Chapter 1. It would be trivial for her to tell the class that Susie and Kris have been gone an awful long time and that she's going to go check on them, only to panic and lock the door on them later, and tell the class she couldn't find them. It's also known that she regulars visits the Library, as a review of MMKC II all but stated to be left by her can be found and read. Additionally, Alphys is also the very first to mention the internet outage...

Interestingly, that review is something that gets analyzed a lot, too. Some think MMKC I is meant to represent Undertale and MMKC II is meant to represent Deltarune. Some think it represents Frisk and Kris, respectively, or even UT Papyrus and DR Papyrus.

Personally, I wonder if Deltarune Alphys preferring much darker and more complicated fiction is reflected by her being a darker and more antagonistic fiction in this game, rather than an ultimately mislead scientist who made a mistake, but learns to improve herself with the support of her friends...

Dr. Andonuts...?

One of Toby Fox's earliest games, as some of us know, is the Earthbound Halloween Hack. It is effectively a 'bad ending' of the game Earthbound, which heavily inspired Undertale later on. It explores some similar themes as his other games, albeit in a more clumsy and edgy way, because he was much younger when he made it. @under-lore has also made some interesting analyses regarding how Halloween Hack and Deltarune's alternative routes are handled, and what this might mean for Deltarune having only 'one ending'. It's got a few other similarities, too: like how much its protagonist, Varik, looks like an earlier version of Kris with a different color palette.

Knight in a modern setting, shadowed eyes, neutral expression...hm.

Oh, I've talked a little about Halloween Hack and Deltarune, but I haven't told you what Halloween Hack's actually ABOUT, have you? Well, it's pretty interesting. So, in the original Earthbound game, the character Dr Andonuts, who is a short and eccentric scientist type with an estranged relationship with his son, puts the hero, his son, and their friends into robot bodies so they can go to a different planet to defeat the big bad, at the cost of never being able to return, right? And in the original story, a miracle happens and they do somehow return home?

Well, in the Halloween Hack, that doesn't actually happen. Tormented with grief at having effectively killed his son and said son's friends, Dr Andonuts locks himself away in his lab, and Varik is sent to go find him, accidentally learning about his past and secrets on the way, and as he does Varik realizes that Andonuts is a heavily closeted queer man who struggled to suppress that side of himself--hey wait a second, why does this sound so much like a character Toby's written...more...recently... In a game that isn't Deltarune...

Speculation

So, I've done my best to bring up and organize a lot of evidence for Alphys being the Knight, both in terms of things actually present in UTDR, and in terms of parallels to other games Toby's worked on. In this section, I'm going to talk a little about my own feelings regarding this twist, how great I think it could be, and what it means for me.

Alphys and Toriel are, in my opinion, the two most overlooked characters in all of Undertale. While the lion's share of the attention goes to Sans, a lot of attention is devoted to Gaster, Papyrus, and sometimes Undyne, Grillby, and Muffet too. Not only do Toriel and Alphys often get overlooked, it feels like everyone significantly downplays Alphys' achievements, too. This video by @megaderping goes into a lot of detail about the ways Alphys is overlooked, and the really interesting facets about her character.

First of all, I think it would be really cool if Alphys' character were brought into the spotlight in this way. I think her being the Knight also explore and expands upon important facets of her character initially introduced in her Undertale appearance, where she indulges in escapism by pretending to be a human's ally, and ends up projecting onto Frisk.

Second of all, I just...feel like there so much potential for really touching scenes between her and Kris?

I don't think the secret bosses are the way they are because they met the Knight. But they do have a recurring theme everyone has caught onto by now: all of them are trash. All are based on items often discarded. First a Joker Card, which is rarely used in play. Next Spam Email, which is universally disliked and never read. And Mike is commonly thought to be a Microphone, possibly using a pun based off 'video killed the radio star'. I've also theorized that Roulxs Kaard, based off a Rules Card, might disappear halfway through Deltarune to become a Secret Boss in a future Dark World.

Alphys has something in common with these Secret Bosses. She thinks she's trash. And Kris also seems to a very low sense of self-esteem too. Spamton projects heavily onto them, and Kris is more shaken by watching Spamton's defeat than anything else. Several players have likened Kris removing their soul as feeling like an analogy to self-harm, it's been theorized that Kris is depressed and suffers dysphoria, and while Kris being an enemy we fight in some route in a popular theory, personally I feel that such a fight coming to pass will mean Kris is making a suicide attempt. Furthermore, Kris has formed an incredibly strong bond with a brash and excitable rulebreaker--much like the bond formed between Alphys and Undyne.

I just think there's a lot of really sweet potential for a future scene. One where, instead of the Knight being a villain Kris needs to kill, as in a classical fairy tale...the Knight sees herself reflected in Kris, and chooses to stop. Chooses to instead talk to Kris about how hard it all is. About how sometimes you feel like trash, and just want to throw yourself away. About how you're always living in some genius', some mentor's, some golden child's shadow. And you love them, and you miss them so much, but you can never be anyone else, aside from who you are in relation to them. About not feeling comfortable in your own body, about feeling awful and needing to watch as people grieve and you KNOW what happened to their lost loved one, but if you tell the truth you have to fear they'd hate you.

I just. Have a lot of feelings about Alphys and Kris bonding and helping each other. About two Knights seeing themselves reflected in the other. We don't have that with Alvin. We don't know enough about Papyrus to know if we'll have it with him. We sure as hell can't get that with Kris being the singular Knight.

So, what's up with Castle Town Fountain?

Okay, I lied. I also believe in Knight Alvin.

Specifically, I believe that Alvin will be a red herring, and it will later be revealed that he was the one who (possibly using his father's hammer) opened the Castle Town Fountain.

Fountains reflect the will of their creator. And the difference between Castle Town and every other fountain(as reflected in the difference between Ralsei and every other Darkner) makes me think that Castle Town Fountain either appeared naturally, or was created by a third Knight: Father Alvin.

It's not just the fact that he's related to Gerson that makes me think Father Alvin created the Castle Town Fountain, specifically. I feel I actually also have some small, but interesting, pieces of proof that Ralsei might be, instead of 'Kris' idealized self' or 'Kris' monstersona' or 'Kris' idealized vision of Asriel'... Father Alvin's idealized vision of Asriel.

Think about how Alvin has talked about Asriel:

-Father Alvin mentions Asriel was in the choir. Ralsei prominently sings lullabies to put enemies to sleep.

-We also know his view of Asriel is incredibly kind, sweet, naive, and is at times driven by guilt. Possibly something of a pushover. He imparts an anecdote where Asriel confessed something mean he had done in a video game out of curiosity, and confessed for Kris when they repeated the act to troll him...despite Father Alvin saying their religion has no concept of sin.

-Likewise, Ralsei is incredibly kind and sweet, perhaps to the point of naivety. He's so intent on pleasing Kris and doing as they say that he actually apologizes when Susie forces him to learn R-Actions, and has an incredibly powerful sense of right and wrong, repeatedly encouraging Kris to be kind and pacify enemies, even if he won't stop them from attacking Darkners.

It's not much evidence, but I do think Father Alvin being Ralsei's creator has some small potential.

Conclusion

I hope this theory has been, if nothing else, entertaining to read! I don't fault anyone else for still sticking with Alvin or Papyrus as Knight Candidates, I would honestly be happy to see either theory confirmed, and even if Alphys turns out to be the Knight, I'd love to see both given larger roles later on. But I'd like to throw some female candidates for Knight into the ring--and while Mayor Holiday and Dess have both been speculated, we just know so little about each of them right now. And as I said, I think Alphys is perfectly primed to further expand and explore themes Deltarune is already exploring a lot.

I would really love to see more discussion, and perhaps even fanart, based around Knight Alphys, though! Whether or not in turns out to be correct, I think it really adds to some overlooked aspects of Deltarune, such as the powers of Neo and Chaos, and perhaps Alphys' connection to Asriel!

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undertalethingems · 6 months

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Unexpected Guests Chapter 10, Act Two: Page 6

First / Previous / Next

Out of sight doesn't mean out of mind.... Gaster won't let anything interfere with his goal.

Look for the next update on Nov. 16th!

#undertale #undertale comic #unexpected guests comic #frisk (undertale)#alphys (undertale)#it was nice to draw alphys nerding out -u-#that's a real theory she's discussing but it's basically one guy who advocates for it--typically not a good sign for validity in science >>#but it's great for worlds based on meta video games :>#i couldn't find an easy way to use undertale's source code so that's... just the opening narration in binary =u=;;;#so. no secrets there >>;

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satellite-starss · 2 months

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A scientist and his sciencelings 🧪

#Undertale #Utmv #utdr #Undertale sans #undertale gaster #undertale alphys #satellitesart✨#Alphys #sans #gaster #w d gaster #undertale au #undertale multiverse #I am a big fan of the angsty gaster aus and theories but sometimes i just crave soft silly science man..

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internetskiff · 25 days

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honestly probably one of my least favorite undertale theories so far. I never like when Gaster is brought up in a way that just kinda takes away from Alphys' achievements. The True Lab area was always about Alphys, and the determination experiments were meant to be her achievement. Gaster already created the core, I don't get why you need to take away from Alphys to add onto him, basically watering Alphys down into a Gaster imitator that failed. Idk, I feel like some theories try to see deeper meaning in what is relatively straightforward.

#ut/dr #undertale #alphys #rambling #gaster #w.d. gaster #yes its about the one video.#i did not like it sorry #i feel like it did alphys too dirty #undertale theory #undertale theories

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gwen-person · 5 months

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Hey guys I solved deltarune stop making theories we don't need them anymore stop

#anyway what do you think the mysterious underground area disguised as a double door in her workplace will be in the third game #undertale #deltarune #alphys #undertale theory #deltarune theory #devialphys muahaha

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radiant-vulpine · 3 months

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Boosting an incredible theory

youtube

After the Chara thing, I'm boosting somebody else's theory which to me has completely changed my perspective on the True Lab, Gaster and even other much smaller things.

PLEAAASE check it out!!!

#undertale #theory #gaster #w.d gaster #alphys #undertale lore #undertale theory #Youtube

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undertale-accessibility · 3 months

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Entry Number 11 is proof that Sans did not write half of the true lab entries.

Some people have theorized that Sans wrote about half of the entries in the true lab. Their reasoning is that some entries don't use proper capitalization, similar to Sans's dialog. However, entry number 11 does not use proper capitalization, but is clearly written by Alphys. She writes about her work on Mettaton’s body, and how she fears she will become useless to him if she finishes. Sans never worked on Mettaton, and wouldn't care about becoming obsolete. The lack of capitalization does not indicate a different author. It indicates Alphys's stress level.

#theory #undertale #sans #alphys #true lab #mettaton

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copwef · 1 month

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Undertale Alphys theory

HOLY CRAP I JUST REALIZED SOMETHING!!!

Everyone always points to the code in undertale for evidence about gaster.

(ex: the placeholder quote that directly describes the mystery man sprite)

But to my knowledge NO ONE and I mean

No one

To my knowledge ever references one well known main undertale character who also has a message in the code of undertale.

Alphys....

At the bottom of this screenshot there is a message that you see if you attempt to look in undertales files to find out who alphys crush is...

Not a lot of people mention this quote and when they do they write it off as a joke.

BUT THINK ABOUT THE WHAT THIS QUOTE IMPLIES!!

The text says "WHO I HAVE A CRUSH ON" meaning it is confirmed that Alphys is the one writing this message.

To my knowledge their is no other MAIN characters leaving messages in undertales code besides Alphys and gaster.

(and possible Chara but I may be thinking about something found in deltarunes code and I don't think toby fox's message about spoilers has any lore implications)

However entry 17 is only a part of a conversation that Gaster was having while talking to Two other people. It is not gaster directly acknowledging the player like he does in deltarune.

ALPHYS IS TALKING DIRECTLY TO THE PLAYER/DATA MINER LOOKING IN UNDERTALES CODE!

The only other person to directly talk to the player is Chara in the genocide route. Which implies Alphys knows quite a lot more than we thought she did.

It also strengthens the theory that she may have something to do with Gaster. And it is commonly assumed that Gaster has a connection with sans in some way.

AND WE KNOW FOR A FACT ALPHYS AND SANS ARE CONNECTED!

Sans has a quantum physics book and both he and papyrus have weird abilities/knowledge....

Alphys is a science and is capable of somehow leaving messages in undertales code

"what do you two think"

"You two"...

Alphys and sans...

With this new information to consider alphys and sans are truly the most qualified candidates.

Maybe this means alphys will have a Massive role in a future chapter of deltarune.

Time will tell....

If you have any information to bring to the table to support or debunk this theory, please do leave a comment or reblog. If I find something else I'll make an update post.

#undertale #undertale theory #deltarune theory #alphys #undertale Alphys #undertale lore #deltarune lore #gaster #Gaster theory #deltarune #VERY VERY INTERESTING #theory #sans undertale #sans

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missowo · 5 months

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La la la beware the man from other world (not silently)

#this theory is hilarious #sans being sans #i like sans character but i dont really like what fandom done to him #it's just not for me #fanart #undertale #utdr #flowey #toriel #papyrus #alphys #frisk #sans #kris #susie #everyone went concern about his weirdly disappeared he just came back like act nothing happens like “sup guys💀💀”#susie and kris goes into undertale sees sans: OmFG KRIS???? ITS THE GUY FROM CONVENTIONS STORE?????#sans: uhhh. (fuck i know those two.)#deltarune

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under-lore · 2 years

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The red soul trait is not determination

One piece of fanon that has become so widespread in the community that some even forget that it isn’t canon is the idea that the red soul represents determination.

We know about the six other soul traits from the ball game in Snowdin.

The 7 possible flags in this game fit with the 7 soul colors. The first 6 can all be linked to the fallen human’s traits.

The last possible flag however, the red flag, simply restates the previous traits in a more explicit manner and associates them with their colors. Saying that a combinaison of all of them led us to victory.

Getting the red flag a second time will result in the red flag getting some different dialogue relating to Frisk’s sense of selfhood.

The red soul trait does not ever get explicitly associated with a trait unlike the other ones. Yet is often assumed to be determination due to DT’s importance in Undertale in general and some flavor text.

But the thing is... Frisk does not actually have special ties with determination other than those that naturally come with being a human.

Firstly, having high amounts of the determination substance like Frisk does is the norm for humans and is not a particularity of Frisk’s.

This is especially relevant considering that dialogues from Toriel and Asgore also imply the 6 fallen humans had the power to SAVE and LOAD too before eventually giving up when fighting the latter.

Frisk’s determination is really nothing out of the ordinary for human standards and simply wouldn’t be warrant of being Frisk’s trait, even if determination had been an actual trait. Which is already quite dubious in itself as determination in Undertale is primarly a substance to which the feeling is secondary.

if anything, there would be more basis on associating Frisk with patience than with determination. That one is actually associated with Frisk’s personality unlike the latter.

As for the flavor texts, Toby has mentioned the SAVE points to be a manifestation of one’s determination.

The 6 humans and Flowey were also able to SAVE/LOAD. Accordingly, the fallen humans and Flowey all had their own SAVE points and each of them was “filled with determination” next to the manifestation of their own determination.

These flavor texts again do not represent anything that’s associated with Frisk in particular and do not tie them to the feeling of determination more than any of the other humans.

To continue, determination is never linked to the color red in Undertale at any point. The two are never even vaguely implied to have anything to do with each other at all.

The concept of the burden of proof dictates that the one making the claim has to be the one providing evidence for said claim, otherwise it is invalid and should be assumed to be wrong by default. Red determination is incapable of providing any evidence for itself that holds ground. Because of this, it cannot even be considered as a theory, it is just a headcanon.

However, the game does actually provide plenty of evidence which goes against it.

Determination is golden

Determination might never be tied to the color red whatsoever, but it does actually get hinted on several occasions to be of a specific color. And that color is actually that of gold.

Firstly, the SAVE points have already been stated by Toby Fox to be a manifestation of pure determination. It is thus only logical that the color of the SAVE points would be the color of determination.

That color is #fff200 gold.

Whenever a SAVE file is SAVED using said SAVE points, the text of the file goes from white to gold at the exact moment the button is pressed, thus using determination to SAVE it.

Whenever Flowey SAVES a SAVE file in a neutral route, this text is gold colored as well. (LOADS remain white however)

Similarly, in the menu, the continue and reset buttons flash gold when we hover over them.

All golden flowers in Undertale always come in 3 different shades, all except one which has apparently shifted away from its natural color at some point.

The exception is non other than Flowey himself. Flowey is a slightly brighter shade of gold than any other golden flower in UT. Not only that, but the shade of gold Flowey has just so happens to actually be the exact same one as the color of the SAVE points and presumed color of determination : #fff200.

Flowey was injected with determination after all, that color change Flowey had is very likely to have come from Alphys' experiments during which the flower took the taint of the substance it was injected with in large amounts : Determination.

Even Alphys, who has seen pure DT and who out of any character should have at least a rough memory of the color it had, writes the word "determination" in a shade close to that of the SAVE points in the true lab.

In the meantime, determination is never written in red.

It is noteworthy that not all instances of this use the exact same shade of gold. That being said, it is not arguable that determination is constantly associated with a golden color.

It goes without saying that if determination is golden colored, it doesn’t make sense for it to be the red soul trait. A color that DT is not associated with a single time in the whole game.

The SAVE power inconsistency

On top of the golden color issue, there is one huge contradiction to the idea that determination could be the red soul trait.

The six fallen humans, who did not have red souls, had the power to SAVE.

Chara, who did have a red soul, did not have the power to SAVE.

With the other six humans being determined enough to be able to reach the treshold but not Chara. We find ourselves in a situation where out of the 7 humans that came before Frisk, the only one of them who had a red soul was the one with the least determination of them all.

Needless to say that Chara’s soul trait being determination simply does not make any sense. And subsequently, it being the red soul trait would not either.

What is the red soul, then ?

The true nature of the red soul trait is unknown, that being said, there are multiple other theories about its nature which all have actual evidence backing them up in the game such as “Ipseity”, “Love”, “Hope”, or even “A combinaison of the 6 other traits”.

#undertale #undertale theory #frisk #flowey #chara #toriel #undertale fallen humans #ut #ut dr #toby fox #alphys #asgore

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carlyraejepsans · 2 years

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since sans is of another world, is papyrus from another world too? are they from different worlds but just so happened to end up in the same one, or does papyrus belong to the world of undertale while sans doesn't?

things we know about sans in deltarune:

he has a younger brother, presumably kris' age or not much older considering he's very protective of him and acts like leaving them to hang out alone "in his house" would be irresponsible

that or he's just weird about his adult brother for no discernible reason. which I sincerely hope isn't the case because come on

ironically, while the skelebros house sprite in undertale is named sans' house, the one in deltarune is named "paphouse".

the game value that checks whether you've already talked to sans about his brother in ch1 when you see him again in ch2 is called "paptalk". it's not his full name, but i believe it's safe to assume that sans' as of yet unnamed brother in deltarune is still papyrus.

naming yourself or the vessel after papyrus in the goner maker sequence will get the prompt "an interesting coincidence" and the steam page (i think?) for deltarune says he's "busy" so it's highly lilely he'll play a role in the story.

still, like you said, part of the evidence that sans comes from deltarune is that he dies in a way that's different from every other character in undertale. papyrus included.

something else weird about his death: he's the only character who has color (red blood) in his sprite in the battle screen, which is strictly black and white. this is very obscure and likely means nothing, but there's a weird comment in the undertale crosstitch book about how you can color the battle sprites if you want to diversify things but they "won't be canon". what an interesting thing to say, why would they feel the need to specify that...

thing is, papyrus' death remains much more similar to ye average undertale monster death. so... what's up with that?

papyrus and sans showed up to snowdin one day out of the blue, though it's not explicitly stated, they most definitely got there together.

"where do skeletons come from" is a question posed more than one time, if jokingly, such as by the baby bunny in deltarune

the snowdin residents had never seen them around before. which can also mean absolutely nothing, because they didn't even recognize us as humans lmao

undertale papyrus appears to have never seen the sun before

there's always the "forgettable" check description in the genocide run that haunts my every waking hour.

which is a theme that recurs both in deltarune (the song "don't forget") and in undertale through sans' workshop and the hidden drawing with "don't forget" scribbled on it.

sans has an attack called "gaster blaster". in one of undertale's patches, a bit of dialogue was added when checking the box of attacks in his room if you abort your geno run with his fight about how with his special attack "you surely would've been BLASTED to..." with blasted highlighted in yellow. yeah. safe to assume he has those too.

his paper with Toby's original concept art/details about him had a bit about him having a [REDACTED] named [REDACTED], right under another line that read "has a brother named comic sans". if we take this mysterious presumed relative to be gaster, then his connection to him becomes even stronger

papyrus has a negative reaction to the CORE specifically (he gets inexplicably sad when we call him and he can see it in the distance) but also hotland in general.

Gaster created the CORE and "fell into his own creation". from the way it's phrased, it's highly likely it WAS in fact the CORE, even if it's just vague enough i have my doubts

i really have no idea! I'm heavily inclined to think that the papyrus we meet in undertale is NOT from deltarune/the papyrus we'll meet there, while sans is the same person. this opens some pretty complicated questions to answer, especially from lack of evidence as we're still in chapter 2 out of 7 and we haven't met papyrus yet.

what happens to deltarune papyrus by the end of the game?

if papyrus is from undertale, what happened to UNDERTALE'S sans when deltarune's version got isekaid

exactly how long ago did all of this go down?

sans likely worked with gaster at some point after arriving in undertale, where they found out about the anomaly "our analysis" (which is mostly flowey's work after being resuscitated ie: not in deltarune. the "our" also couldn't have been alphys instead because she gives no indication of being aware of the SAVE powers, the anomaly or time manipulation—though she DID study alternate universes! and she knows sans! interesting coincidence). if so, how is gaster involved with the fate of deltarune NOW, when sans is still there? sure, he was shattered through TIME and space, but wouldn't that constitute a paradox? of course, unless we take "another Him" literally and this isn't the same gaster as the one from undertale

if we go "papyrus is gaster" instead, why does he respond to "papyrus" in deltarune too, why isn't he just gaster (and why does the name "gaster" still crash the game)?

all in all, i DON'T think we have enough material to work with, especially with papyrus. sans had his arc, his lore you could find and piece together with a satisfying conclusion ingame (think of the narrative payback that's finally reaching the workshop behind their house) while papyrus', while still being as much if not even More befuddling, was... all over the place. unexplained. incomplete. you can't piece back much of anything about his past. which is why i have SUPER high expectations for him in deltarune. he's clearly being built up for SomeThing,and i think it's going to be a lore arc just like sans had in undertale, all to himself, while his brother is off having his hotgirl customer service summer with the local goats and... presumably getting sucked into another universe. whoops!

here's a link to the crosstitch page comment, courtesy of @undertale-encyclopedia (you're a godsend to theorists everywhere, thank you so much)

if you're interested in the otherworld/deltarune sans theory, then i cannot recommend @megaderping 's two videos enough, which showcase both its proof AND the contradictions and issues it brings up (HERE'S the original, and HERE's an addendum after some discussion on the previous video). she gathers and mentions pretty much EVERYTHING that made me believe in it in the first place, AND the bits that make me doubt my interpretation of it, though surprisingly i DON'T think they touch on the blood business, which is curious because it's such a big controversy even now. i also owe them and their discord friends credit for the "papvalues" discoveries in deltarune's code, as my hacking and cracking skills are non-existent.

#WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM. AAAA #answered asks #undertale #sans #papyrus #deltarune #otherworld theory #entry log #w.d. gaster #Psst. since you're here. go check out dorked's comic inverted fate. and her latest video on alphys. she's amazing

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haunted-80s-arcade-game · 4 months

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An Inconclusive and Slightly Unhinged Analysis of the True Lab Entries from Undertale: And Why They May Be Significant to Deltarune.

There is very little I can add about the True Lab entries that hasn’t already been pointed out by the fandom many many times before, so this analysis is more of a re-telling of EVERYTHING rather than a suggestion of brand new theories, however… I will be throwing in a few details I noticed while extensively combing through each lab entry that may have been missed by other people (but again, I highly doubt it. I haven’t searched through every thread on reddit or tumblr etc. so if I’m repeating anything that others have already mentioned, then I apologise. I’m mostly just writing this to get all of my thoughts in order before I explode).

Nevertheless, I’m going to order this in chronological order based on the most well known facts/speculations, down to the least well known, and the speculations that I myself have been recently thinking about.

So what are the True Lab Entries?

Basically, the True Lab is only accessible when carrying out the True Pacifist Route and reaching (almost) the end of the game. After defeating Omega Flowey, you can travel back to Hotland and enter Alphys’s Lab like normal. This time, however, you will find a note on the ground reading:

Hey,

Thanks for your help back there. You guys… Your support really means a lot to me. But… as difficult as it is to say this… You guys alone can’t magically make my own problems go away. I want to be a better person. I don’t want to be afraid anymore. And for that to happen, I have to be able to face my own mistakes. I’m going to start doing that now.

I want to be clear. This isn’t anyone else’s problem but mine. But if you don’t ever hear from me again… If you want to know “the truth”. Enter the door to the north of this note. You all at least to deserve to know what I did.

Upon entering the door to the north of the note (the door with a bathroom sign on it), you find yourself in an elevator, which almost immediately breaks down when you try to ride it, and sends you plummeting down into what is known as the True Lab.

The True Lab is basically just the creepy basement where Alphys does all of her more shady experiments involving determination, or at least, the place where she kept all the monsters who’ve had determination injected into them after death. Now, however, all of those monsters have turned into sticky, melted “Amalgamates” and are being hidden away from the rest of the Underground and in particular, their families, who regularly send letters to Alphys asking where their family members are, only to be completely ghosted by her. I’m going to safely assume that everyone reading this knows all of this and therefore, I don’t need to continue on with this very long-winded explanation.

The most intriguing part about the True Lab are the Lab Entries, which are basically updates about experiments being logged as “entries” that can be read as the player wanders around the True Lab. They are numbered, but this is both painfully significant and also potentially not significant at all, so bear with me here. I’ll get back to this.

Who writes the Entries?

This is where we start to get into the meat of the True Lab, and also down the rabbit hole of speculation, so pretty much nothing beyond this point can be considered canon, apart from a few select details.

At first glance, it seems that all of the entries are written by Alphys, and indeed, a lot of them certainly are. Entry Number 11 is certainly proof of this:

[“now that mettaton’s made it big, he never talks to me anymore… except to ask when i’m going to finish his body. but i’m afraid if i finish his body, he won’t need me anymore… then we’ll never be friends ever again… not to mention, every time i try to work on it, i just get really sweaty…”]

Obviously, we know that Alphys canonically created Mettaton’s body, so we know– at the very least– that this entry was written by Alphys. Because of this, people have assumed that she also wrote entries 9-13, and 18-21 (and maybe entry 16 and the second version of entry 17… again, I will get back to this). This is because the grammar and the capitalisation of letters at the beginning of the sentences (or rather, lack thereof) is the same throughout all of them (entry 16 is tricky to determine, because there are no sentences. It simply reads “no No NO NO NO NO NO”). Not only that but, again, a few have very Alphys-specific details in them, such as her spending time at the dump.

Now… this is where it gets Very, Very Interesting (for those who haven’t heard this shit thousands of times before because this is NOT new information, I promise). The rest of the entries are written COMPLETELY differently. I don’t just mean grammar-wise either (but it is noticeable that everything is properly capitalised, which tipped people off into thinking that these weren’t written by Alphys). What I haven’t really seen analysed before is how much the content of the entries don’t quite match up with Alphys’s timeline. Not to mention the fact that there are some very specific wording choices that caught my notice.

Entry number 4 and 8 are the ones that mostly confirm the theory that these weren’t written by Alphys, at least in my mind, by the simple fact that they mention Toriel (both directly and indirectly). Entry number 4 explains that the writer found the VHS tapes and we can glean from their wording that they watched them (why would they say that Asgore shouldn’t watch them if they didn’t know what was on them?) which means they heard audio footage of Toriel.

In entry number 8, they mention how they found a flower that appeared “just before the queen left”

which means that they are aware of Toriel, and may have even interacted with her, if they were around before she left as well. I say all this because, unless Alphys is lying at the end of the Pacifist Route, she doesn’t recognise Toriel.

(Yes it’s a screenshot from Jack’s playthrough, did you think I was gonna go through the full game for this one scene?)

None of the monsters really do, except for Sans, because Toriel left long before any of them were even born, judging by the timeline (which I’ll get to in a sec). Not only does Alphys not know the queen, but she also absolutely did not have anything to do with the first flower, and therefore did not create Flowey.

Think about the timeline for a second. Toriel left fairly soon after the original human’s death and after Asriel’s death, when Asgore started to take the souls of other human children. We can assume that, unless human children were literally dropping down every other week, it has been YEARS between the first human who fell and Frisk falling down. It could be anywhere from a few decades to potentially even centuries (I think I saw a timeline suggesting it had been about a hundred years since Chara fell?). Now, I’m sure many monsters probably have ridiculously long lifespans– clearly Toriel and Asgore do, but I honestly don’t buy the idea that Alphys was there when Asriel died and the queen left. I honestly don’t think she had anything to do with any of the experiments in the True Lab beyond the creation of the Amalgamates.

And, because of this, the reason why I’m sure she didn’t create Flowey is because Flowey had to be created fairly soon after Asriel died. We know that he was, because entry number 8 specifically mentions that the first flower was taken from the outside world, just after the queen left (“hang on,” I hear you say. “The entry says the flower appeared just after the queen left, not that it was taken. It could have been taken way later!” buttercups live for two months, next question). Now, this is where it gets a little tricky, because I think there are still some people who don’t quite understand how Flowey was created (believe me, I was one of them). The reason he has Asriel’s soul inside of him is because the dust from Asriel’s soul stuck to the flower and mixed with the determination that was injected into it. In entry number 10, which was written by Alphys, it’s mentioned that the seeds of the flowers “stick to you, and won’t let go” which is a nod towards how the dust stuck to the flower. This is why Flowey had to have been made very soon after Asriel’s death, which Alphys just was not there for (and yes, I know that isn’t technically confirmed canon, but I really don’t think the timelines match up in this case). Overall, I think it’s safe to assume that Alphys didn’t create Flowey.

However, going back to entry 10, we do know she worked on flowers. In fact, I think this is more solid evidence that Alphys didn’t specifically create Flowey, because the original experiment was on one, original flower. Whereas Alphys seems to work on multiple of them: “whatever. they’re a hassle to deal with anyway.”

I also don’t think that Alphys’s experiments on the flowers led anywhere, because the only reason Flowey turned into Flowey in the first place was because he had Asriel’s soul embedded inside him, not because he was a flower. The entries about Alphys’s experiments in the flowers seem to align with this, because there’s nothing in them that suggests the flowers ever did anything after being injected with determination.

“But wait!” Yes… I know. What about entry number 18?

Well… I don't think Alphys wrote this one either.

I know the lack of capitalisation suggests that she did, but I think this is a red herring. Think about it, does this read like Alphys? It’s very abrupt, very factual. There’s no concerned ramblings or anything, it is simply a grim statement that the flower has gone. Also, why does it only mention the flower? We know that Alphys has worked on more than one flower before, so the fact that she hasn’t clarified, or said a flower is suspicious, to say the least. It sounds more as if the person who wrote this is the person who experimented on the original flower (or at least was present during that experiment), aka Flowey.

Lastly, none of the other entries that Alphys presumably wrote ever mentions this flower again. True, neither do any of the entries after this one, but to be fair… this is the last entry that (possibly) isn’t written by Alphys.

So who did write the other entries?

Well, you can theorise all you want on this aspect, but personally I do believe it has to be W.D. Gaster and naturally that’s the most accepted theory. Obviously, we know for a fact that he was the Royal Scientist before Alphys, so it stands to reason that these are the notes from his experiments. This is where I’d like to actually talk more about the contents of these entries, though, and put together more of an idea of exactly what Gaster was working on, how it relates back to Alphys’s own experiments, and one theory that I made up while reading the entries (though I haven’t checked to see if anyone else has pointed this out before… perhaps I should have researched this more instead of just launching into my own ramblings).

First, Gaster specifically researched humans and their souls as part of his experimentation, including experimenting on the souls of the humans that fell into the underground. Again, this is why I don’t think Alphys had a hand in these experiments because– unless she’s still hiding a lot of things– she never mentions that her knowledge of humans really goes anywhere beyond what she’s seen in anime, let alone personal experience with the souls of the fallen humans.

This isn’t what interested me, though. The interesting thing, in my opinion, is where the experiments of Gaster and Alphys cross over each other: the monster souls that were injected with determination, an experiment which they both worked on. Here me out, but.. I don’t think these are the same monsters. I think Gaster experimented on dead monsters and their souls and the results were just as inconclusive and fatal as when Alphys tried to remake the experiment. However, I think the outcomes might have been slightly different.

I think Gaster specifically created the so-called Gaster Followers (and Goner kid). I think these are the monsters that he experimented on, and something went wrong, and now they don’t even exist anymore.

I’ll get more into my reasonings why in a sec, but I wanna go back to the timeline again. If Gaster experimented on Flowey around the same time as he experimented on the monsters, then these can’t be the same monsters that make up Alphys’s amalgamates. We’ve already ascertained that there could be a decades long gap between Gaster’s experiments and Alphys’s experiments, so how would Alphys still be getting regular, frantic letters from the same families of whom Gaster experimented on if their family members have been gone for decades? I’m not saying the families would have given up entirely (if they’re even still alive by this point) but the letters would certainly be fewer and farther between, surely. The letters Alphys is receiving are from families who have only just recently lost their family members, which doesn’t match up with the timeline if these are supposedly the same monsters from Gaster’s original experiments.

So, why do I think the grey characters are the original monsters that Gaster experimented on? Well, I’ll start with the most obvious connection first and talk about how Gaster specifically uses the word “goner” to describe the monsters he had been working on, which I think?? may have been the reason the fandom nicknamed the grey monster kid Goner Kid in the first place, but I could be wrong on that. I haven’t kept up with fanlore for a while. I think a lot of people assumed that Goner Kid was more of just a victim of timelines being reset over and over again, but I think it’s plausible that he could have been one of the monsters that Gaster experimented on before this happened, along with the Gaster Followers.

I can’t really back up this claim with evidence from the grey NPCs dialogue, except that they have the most information about Gaster, which would make sense if they actually interacted with him at some point or with his lab. I just think it’s never really talked about why these characters exist in the first place. Why have they been erased from existence when other monsters haven’t and why are they so connected to Gaster? If the experiment that Gaster was working on with the monster souls happened around the same time as the experiment that shattered him across time and space, it would make sense if the monsters had gotten caught up in this, along with everyone else in the lab at the time (Flowey perhaps? Judging by entry number 18, Flowey was still there when Gaster “fell into his creation and shattered” if we conclude that entry 17 is the moment that this experiment went wrong and, let’s be honest… There must be a reason that Flowey is able to control timelines. Almost like a side effect of something idk…). Unlike with Alphys’s experiments, we never actually see the outcome of Gaster’s. His entries talk about the monsters waking up and walking around, before we get entry 16 and 17 which cuts off his experiments for good before we’re able to find out if the results were the same as Alphys’s. Perhaps they would have been, had Gaster’s time fuckery experiment not got in the way and potentially wiped out both him and the monsters entirely. As a result, we get these grey NPCs who don’t look melted and fucked up like the amalgamates, but their existences have been destroyed.

Which brings me onto another point of interest. What is the timeline of the entries? And do Alphys’s entries even exist in the same timeline as Gaster’s?

My main reasoning for this is the fact that there are two entry 17s. One of which was definitely written by Gaster because… well, it has to be because I think if Wing Dings McGee wasn’t the guy who wrote entry 17 then the fandom will immediately lay down on the floor and die. The other, however, was written by Alphys and talks about the monsters she experimented on melting together:

monsters’ physical forms can’t handle determination like humans’ can. with too much determination, our bodies begin to break down. everyone’s melted together…

Now, yes… I know this entry doesn’t exist in the game and I know it’s technically a deleted entry that can’t be treated as canon. However, it does still exist in the game files. People can access it, and by this point, I think it’s common knowledge that Toby Fox does not just leave things behind on accident. Everything that can be accessed by the players is put there for a reason (unless we go with my other theory that Toby is a master of chaos who just likes to amuse himself, which… shouldn’t be ruled out tbh). How can there be two entry 17s and how come they overlap each other without ever mentioning the other. How can Gaster go on a one-man trek into a fucking black hole while Alphys is dealing with melted dogs at the same time? These entries did not happen together, and I definitely don’t think entries 9-13 happened before entries 14-16. I also think entry 4 is actually the first entry, because it mentions Gaster “researching humans to see if I can find any info about their souls” but the previous entries already talk about the “persistence” of human souls.

Also, I briefly mentioned how the voice of entry 16 couldn’t be determined, but what I find interesting is that it… technically has both Alphys and Gaster’s voice. I don’t know for sure, because this could absolutely just be me reaching into an abyss right now, but Toby Fox’s attention to detail has driven me completely insane so fuck it… the entry specifically reads “no No NO NO NO NO NO” in which the first no isn’t capitalised and yet the second one is.

It feels like their timelines are crossing, but never fully meeting, if that makes sense, and entry 16 seems to be the start of everything going wrong. It’s the last entry before (Gaster’s) entry 17 and after that we get the mysterious “the flower’s gone” entry which you know what? Hot take, but this entry has even more mystery surrounding it than entry 17 because WHO WROTE THIS ENTRY?? Gaster didn’t; by this point he’s already yeeted himself off into space, and Alphys didn’t because I already said that this isn’t the flower she was working on (and hey… before anyone says “ummm but she literally knows Flowey when Papyrus mentioned him, she freaked out about it”. Okay smartass just because she didn’t work on Flowey doesn’t mean she doesn’t know about him, Gaster could have kept notes lying around… give me a break I’m tired). Point is, I don’t think either of them wrote this entry.

And yeah okay I am about to bring up that old ass theory that Sans may have a connection to the True Lab Entries because he’s the only other character who doesn’t capitalise his letters (curse you MatPat for being a defining figure in my childhood) but like… guys. Remember I said that Gaster’s failed experiment may have had side effects on everyone in the lab, including causing Flowey to become aware of the timelines?? Yeah, how do we know that didn’t happen to Sans too? That experiment fucked everyone up, and Sans sure as hell knows everything that goes on in Undertale. There’s no way he isn’t connected to Gaster in some way or another, like there’s no argument about that atp we’ve been over this time and time again already.

(oh and is now the time to mention that Gaster’s entries were the ones to mention the blueprints he used to begin his experiments on soul power, which means those blueprints predated Gaster’s experiments and also there are blueprints in the shed beside Sans and Papyrus’s house? I know the common theory was that Sans and Papyrus came after Gaster, but like… what if they didn’t? And I don’t mean that they were there at the same time, because I know about the “Gaster is Sans and Papyrus’s father” theory, but I mean like… what if Sans actually predates Gaster? I know it sounds really tinfoil hat-esque but we honestly can’t rule anything out by this point).

Someone wrote entry 18 and I don’t think it was Alphys or Gaster.

Okay cool, so what does this have to do with Deltarune?

Let me answer that with a different question:

What if Deltarune is the creation that Gaster fell into?

There’s plenty of theories out there about Gaster being connected to Deltarune, possibly even more so than he is to Undertale, but like… what if that’s because he literally created the whole universe? He fell into this parallel universe that he wasn’t supposed to enter and it caused him to shatter, throwing off timeline hopping side effects that may have caught both Sans and Flowey. I mean, Sans does show up in Deltarune, and it’s odd that he’s the only character there that clearly hasn’t been established as a long-time resident. He doesn’t really know anyone there, he’s asserted his store into the street by rubbing out Grillby’s name and he winks at the player when he says he doesn’t know you. He’s like… the only character there who definitely still remembers Undertale (and like I don’t think we talk enough about the fact that Papyrus just straight up isn’t there. Like, yeah we assume he’s locked away in his house and that’s his parallel version to his Undertale self– a shut-in introvert, but the “distant trousle of bones” line might suggest that he actually just isn’t there at all. How distant is distant, Toby?).

Like, it’s obvious by this point that Gaster has some major control over the Deltaverse, and that entry 17 has a lot of parallels to the creation of dark worlds, but we don’t really ask how that parallel world existed in the first place. We know that parallel timelines exist, but Flowey said nothing about parallel worlds. Flowey doesn’t even seem to know about parallel worlds because if he did, I’m sure he wouldn’t have gotten bored so quickly and turned into a homicidal maniac if he had whole other WORLDS to explore. How did this world suddenly come into existence if not a creation by the one and only W.D. Gaster?

And while we’re on the subject of funky little guys who haunt the Deltarune narrative, it’s funny how Dess has disappeared from the world, rather than explicitly died. There’s already a theory floating around that Dess is somehow connected to Gaster in the same way that Spampton and Jevil may be but again her circumstances feel… different somehow. Not only that but unlike Spamton and Jevil, Dess is potentially present in Undertale if we take the Undertale alarm clock dialogues from 2017 as anything to go by, wherein Sans mentions “that antlered girl and her big sis” (it may also be notable that it’s Sans who seems to know Dess and Noelle but… I’m too tired to go much further on this theory right now).

So, I think what I’m saying is, Dess is almost definitely incredibly significant, and is potentially linked to Gaster in more ways than we first thought, although again… we probably all did think this and I’m just late to the party (if you can believe it, I’ve been in the Undertale fandom since the game came out, but I never frequented Reddit or Tumblr at the height of the fandom so… I’m definitely repeating a lot of old stuff here).

Basically, this whole analysis is just a recap of everything we know about the Lab Entries, while also potentially throwing out a few tidbits that may interest Deltarune theorists far better than I could ever be.

Also the song Don’t Forget at the end of chapter 1? That’s 100% Dess and I take no other suggestions on that. “When the light is running low and the shadows start to grow” Hey that sounds fucking familiar *said with the most deranged smile on my face*

#undertale #undertale theory #undertale thoughts #undertale meta #undertale meta analysis #deltarune #deltarune theory #deltarune meta #wd gaster #dess holiday #sans #sans undertale #alphys

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