#but i still feel some calling to “masculinity”

[our-lesboy-experience]

hiii!!! so uh, this is sorta about 'contradicting' (?) identities in general, but i only recently found out about, like, lesboys and gaygirls and all of that, but what is it exactly? like how does it work? or is that weird to ask? i'm trying figuring myself out but a lot of stuff i've seen doesn't exactly... explain it (or explain it well), and while i guess i do get why, it's just kinda hard to understand it myself for my own identity

also, probably a question you get a lot in a hating way, but isn't the definition of lesbian nonman loving nonman? so then how does lesboy work? like is it for people with more complicated gender identites, like fluctuating genders and bigender? just genuinly confused, my apologies...

sorry for not getting to this sooner- been busier lately and didn't have the time to collect everything I needed to respond!

About what it exactly means to be a lesboy or a gaygirl ('turigirl' is the more common term, 'turi' meaning turian, another word for gay attraction to men. so I'll be referring to it as that from now on), there isn't exactly....one right way to call yourself such. it really depends on the person, but I can give you a basic definition and a list of common reasons someone may call themselves such

im gonna put a read more because this ended up being super long so sorry

lesboy is a term for any lesbian who may have a connection to manhood and/or masculinity. turigirl is just the opposite of that, a gay person (mlm/nblm) who may have a connection to womanhood and/or femininity. common reasons I've seen are:

being multigender or genderfluid

being cusper/in between trans and cis gnc (in between trans man and cis gnc woman, in between trans woman and cis gnc man)

being a system who uses lesboy/turigirl as a collective identity or when identities blur together

a person who uses man/boy or woman/girl as a means of masculine or feminine gender expression but not actually identifying as such

being a trans man/ftm or a trans woman/mtf who still identifies as lesbian or gay for personal reasons

those are far from all the reasons, everyone has their own unique experiences, but the gist is these people may have some sort of connection to manhood/womanhood while still having a queer attraction. personally, I'm multigender, genderfluid, and transmasc. lesboy I find is a nice label to express being both my bigender self and being a lesbian, as it forces people to acknowledge both without separating the two. it's cute and makes me feel validated!

as for "nonman attracted to nonmen" definition of lesbian......it has its issues. it's received criticism all around from all sorts of lesbians in the community. this definition is very new - it emerged only in the recent years, and someone on twitter had date searched it and found it didn't even really exist before 2019. and having that as the one and only official definition that every lesbian has to abide by, when lesbian is a centuries old word with so much history behind it, is a bit ignorant. people who are multiple genders or ftm or bi being lesbian is not even remotely new, going back decades upon decades, and it never stopped existing too. It's a bit weird to have a whole new definition that doesn't include all sorts of lesbians that have been here for so long and just tell them they're not welcomed anymore, right?

that's not even close to the only issue there is with it. it's been disliked for centering lack of attraction to men, or defining lesbian in relation to men, rather than who we're actually attracted to. putting nonbinary people in a new binary of either being "men or nonmen," which not all feel comfortable putting themselves into. especially when considering a definition of gay being "nonwomen attracted to nonwomen," man-woman bigender people are simultaneously excluded from being both lesbian or gay. It inherently overlaps with mspec identity ("attraction to nonmen, which is more than one gender" and "any orientation that involves attraction to more than one gender" kinda obviously overlap), despite people insisting that a lesbian can never be mspec. people have found multiple loopholes in it, (which I can elaborate on if someone wants me to, for the sake of trying to make this as short as possible), and lastly, and term "nonman" (and nonwoman) were found to have existed before to describe the degendering of black people in society. this isn't the only source I've seen for this, but sadly I can't exactly find it (or find it without going back to that hellsite called twitter and I'm not doing that to myself)

oh and as the link points out, defining lesbian by these words also ends up excluding a lot of two-spirit people from ever identifying as lesbian, myself included. which is also really racist. I don't know how you're gonna end up excluding a whole cultural gender that's common for indigenous americans to describe themselves with and try to prove it somehow isn't racist, to be honest

and lastly, some surveys/polls have shown that the definition isn't the most widely accepted by lesbians as people make it out to be. there's this simple poll that someone posted asking how lesbians felt about the definition that received 1,529 responses, and 61.1% of voters said they disliked it. comments gave lots of reasons I've stated already. there was another survey put out that received 211 responses that for any lesbian who had a genderqueer or unique relationship with gender, and one of the questions asking opinions on the "nonmen loving nonmen" as a definition. the average among the group was slightly negative (average 2.838), and reported that the group who tended to feel the most positively about it didn't consider themselves to be trans, with the other positive leaning group considered themselves to be somewhat cis. the group that felt the most negatively sometimes considered themselves to be trans. and of the multigender participants, the average opinion was 2.255 (more negative than the overall average). When concluding, the original poster stated, "When divided by gender, the only groups to feel positive about this definition were "not trans" and "somewhat cis" participants. Multigender participants felt especially negative about this definition"

all of this shows that this definition isn't nearly the best for everyone who considers themselves a lesbian. I know it's been a way to include nonbinary people who are lesbian in it's definition, but I think it really misunderstands why nonbinary people are included in lesbianism in the first place, and just assumes that all nonbinary people aren't men and fails to recognize that multigender/genderfluid people are nonbinary too. and it's not like lesbian has to only have on definition- it can definitely have multiple and depend on each person's experience with it. if someone personally defines them being lesbian around being a nonman attracted to nonmen, and takes pride in not being attracted to men, that's totally fine. what becomes a problem is forcing all lesbians to define themselves like this and make it the standard, or else they're "not real lesbians." it is ahistorical and ignorant to require this or else you'll strip them of their lesbian status, and is really at the end of the day, lesbophobic. especially as a requirement that primarily exists in online spaces. im sure the lesbian who is not at all connected to these circles doesn't particularly care about strict requirements or whether someone is a "nonman" or not. in conclusion, it is not the best nor most accepted definition of lesbian, and deciding which lesbians are valid or not based solely on that definition is pretty exclusionary and ends up policing a lot of lesbians, myself included

#lesboy #turigirl #lesbian #gay #multigender #genderfluid #mspec lesbian #asks #tw exclusionism #tw queerphobia #lesbophobia #I can definitely elaborate on some points if asked #I do have some thoughts I've never shared before

[clfixationstation]

my problem is that my brain interprets this as "pretty girl"

ft: small edit so others can see my vision

#cl talks #eren jaeger #I'm about to yap so others can disregard #eren yeager #aot #snk #like idk what it is #def not attraction bc i'm repulsed when i remember he's a guy #but for some reason i see him and it feels like me #like i want to look like this & be perceived like this but still be “girl” #thought of not being perceived as “girl” makes me uncomfy but so does dressing “femininely” many days #even though i adore the style #<3 cute little skirts #sometimes wearing them makes me want to rip off my skin #but being referred to by things other than she/her wouldn't feel right #but i still feel some calling to “masculinity” #idk bro #update from some days later: don't feel like this at all rn #no idea what I was on #was definitely a “fem style uncomfy” day #fascinating to see the difference day to day #eremin #humans are so strange #fem!eren

[craycraybluejay]

this is exactly what im talking about btw, baeddels harassing trans men but trans men are expected not only to shut up and take it but not do anything in turn. just like a specific brand of abuse on the tip of my tongue

like waow i guess im OpPrEsSiNg you for telling you its bad to call a whole group of people slurs as insults and being a misgendering and transphobic piece of garbage.

why cant we make 'theymab' a thing? oh yeah because its acceptable to abuse a trans person under the pretense of their agab if you see them as a woman but not if you're seen as a man. huh. i wonder what that reminds me of.

#wtf was the goal of that hate comment. stop #anyway to make 1 thing clear if you want to harass people and act patriarchal i really do not care ab how Most Oppressed you are #if you want not to feel like a man maybe stop degrading women and even calling people who arent women that so you can degrade them #like imagine being racist and crying about racism?? no one cares bro you are the asshole #i should not have to tolerate harassment because you feel that you deserve and still chase after the same pariarchal space that cis men have #because you want all the power to abuse inherent to being a cis man at the same time as saying you dont want to be seen as one #you could say its properly transmisogynistic to not let you abuse people for percieved womanhood even a LITTLE #how dare they? this was your birthright #i dont believe in karma but i believe you deserve to get what you give on some level #baeddels are clinging so hard to the conventions of toxic masculinity #and u have to stay quiet about it and try to reword that glaring fact bc its Misgendering #i am not the one running around trying so hard to be transphobic and misogynistic to vulnerable ppl #also yall act like oppression is always gonna align with your identity. its not thats the point. #but just bc you start experiencing misogyny for the first time does not mean you need to level it at transmasculine people #go find a better outlet. go the fuck to therapy #we are not your punching bag

[sainticidal]

i don't mind what pronouns people use for michael. i'll say it. you can refer to her as male (he/him) or female (she/her). she is a celestial body and does not adhere to gender in the traditional way so you are free to refer to her however.

#🕊️ out! #as someone who is still questioning their own gender identity #i dont put a label on myself and just call myself a 'boygirl' #because it feels most accurate to how i feel. fluid and bigender just don't feel accurate to me #i refer to michael as 'he/him' OR 'she/her' outside of roleplaying as some of you will notice #you are always free to do the same #the only thing i ask is her honorifics #or titles MUST be masculine #she is a prince. she is a brother. she is not a princess or sister #as long as i get you are referring to michael instead of like #your own character or something #as long as there's that distinction you know and i can tell who's who #i honestly do not care #i have been thankful to people respecting her femininity however it means a lot to me

[selvepnea]

Thinking about. That one post about art. And how it's never good enough. Since you're the one that made it. And how. It might relate to how I view myself?

#Sel talks #Like. Do I like the idea of a masculine body because I think it will make me less me? #I keep thinking about a line from “in stars and time” talking about. How maybe they changed because it was easier than learning to love #Himself as he was. #Keep thinking about something my therapist said last session. About how he would hope there's more restriction around accessing trans #Health-care than there is about getting a medical Marijuana card #And even if it comes from a place of good intent; is still a harmful idea? #I keep forgetting how much importance cis people put on transitioning. And it's just. Not? For me? #My body is just another form of expression for me to form and play with. And I feel like it might be hard to try and get someone who's #Not thought a lot about gender to understand. #I don't really want to lable it as “transitioning” either. My isat brainrot is wanting me to call it “Changing”; bit I'm not sure if that's #Quite accurate either. Like. We don't have a word for playing with different styles of clothes? Why do I need one for messing w other types #Of presentation? #Sigh... #I'm soooo tempted to just go on t and not do anything else. No name change. No sex change. And not tell anyone. #Why do I need to take into consideration how much my decision weighs on other people? #I feel like I've gotten too many reminders that “tomorrow's not promised” or “How we spend our days is how we spend our lives” #“Don't live wondering” or whatever that old lesbian slogan was. “We're all going to die so who cares if it's a waste”? Some will wood song #I'm listening to. I just. #Why am I waiting for the perfect opertunity to transition? Or change or whatever. #I've always considered my want to masculinise as me taking “be the change you want to see” either too far or too literally #I want to see men in dresses!! And if no one else around here is going to do it I guess that falls on me! #Why must I follow everyone else's path to t?? I want to make my own! #Grrr barkbark #I feel so underequiped to change the world; why must I do it?? Can't it just change for me??

[phddyke]

Whatever you do don’t think about Darius realizing, as Eberwolf is being held at knifepoint and Raine is beat to shit, that his attempt to protect the people he loves by acting like a sarcastic little shit who doesn’t care about anything failed miserably. That he might as well have spent his remaining time telling his friends that he loved them and he acted that way for nothing. And now it’s too late.

#just re-watched king’s tide again and had some feelings #the owl house #darius deamonne #toh #toh s2 #toh s2 finale #king’s tide #darius #toh darius #im obsessed with darius as a character who has difficulty with his emotions #not because of toxic masculinity #but because he’s learned from experience that every positive feeling he has can and will be used against him #so he acts like he doesn’t care about raine and calls eberwolf a mutt in public #but it doesn’t matter because she still gets used against him #and raine gets hurt #and when he surrenders for eber and realizes they lost #he probably thinks that all that ‘I-don’t-care-about-anything’ façade was pointless #because he couldn’t protect either raine or eber anyway #or hunter #and he should’ve just told them he loved them while he had a chance #but now it’s too late #and those were likely some of his last thoughts before (he assumes anyway) dying

[casiavium]

All of these "who has more anything gender!" polls are just. white man without extreme body builder muscles v white man without extreme body builder muscles. The gender is "masculine" stop pretending it's universal

#even worse is when it's 'tradionally feminine' v 'traditionally masculine (without super ripped muscles' and the notes are all #she's the opposite of gender he's THE only gender ever. #'gender' isn't even androgynous anymore it's just some guy #vent post #idk I'm just kind of 😬 about people not seeing binary girl or even predominantly feminine as 'gender' whatever the fuck that means #you like androgyny when it's on twinks but don't think the butch lesbian that only calls herself a woman is 'gender' huh #and something about genderfluid characters only ever being accepted when they're in their 'not cis' presentation (cough ze l da) #like..i consider myself genderfluid and sometimes have guy-adjacent euphoria days #(still think about everyone who he/hims me when I cosplay Link ❤️) #but... I get just as much when I'm wearing what's 'expected' of me like skirts and dresses and makeup and am seen as a girl #because a lot of times growing up i wasn't really included in the girl stuff but was still too girl for the boy things :/ #and I feel like. everything focuses on the andro of androgynous that they forget androgynous doesn't mean vaguely fem guy #it's like. shiek is winning the gender poll. but zelda wouldn't. even though they're the same person and one doesn't exist without the other #nonbinary but the binary isn't girl-boy it's trans-cis #nice dichotomy idiot #what lies outside of it

[daz4i]

thinking abt that time on this site when it was rampant with transmeds and nbphobes and a post I've seen in the genderfluid tag along the lines of "you're not a different gender you just have more dysphoria on some days and less on others. this is true abt all trans people" and I'm still losing it years later. girlie literally can't process that other people may have different experiences from them so they decided what we feel. oh my god

#like personally my experience with being genderfluid is literally having dysphoria in different directions at times #now that I'm on t i sometimes hate how masculine i look and feel better when i look feminine #but as you can guess. the reason I'm on t is bc i usually prefer looking masculine and being called 'she' makes my skin crawl #it's almost like gender is a personal experience that varies from person to person........ #anyway. glad we got out of this stage. if there are still transmeds here i hope you get well soon lmao maybe talk to some trans ppl irl #also i think it's true for other groups too. if you think you know someone else's feelings. you're a self centered dumbass sorry #you're not omnipotent bestie and it's def not up to you to decide how other ppl identify 🤨 shut up

[ttngummybear]

So, I did an experiment that I decided to definitively end today.

Potentially uncomfy gender talk under the cut.

---

All of the women in my family have always had issues with thick, dark facial hair. I'm no exception.

I used to shave this hair off, but I would get stubble by the end of the day. My dad always told me that was my punishment for shaving, because shaving makes the hair grow back thicker and denser (this is not true, it has been debunked in every possible way).

After a while, I bought a device called an epilator, which is an evil and terrible device which is basically just a bunch of little sets of tweezers that yank the hair out by the root. It stays gone much longer this way, but it does still grow back.

I got sick of this painful maintenance of a hairless face back in December and decided that I was gonna try just letting the hair grow out and leaving it alone. I grew a patchy little beard because of this. It grew in long enough to grab with just my fingers.

I managed to leave it alone for about a month, until a few days ago when I shaved it, and then epilated off the stubble today.

Having that damn patchy beard caused me SO FUCKING MUCH DISTRESS. I thought I'd eventually come to love it, like the hair on my legs and my belly, but no. Every time I felt it or looked at it, I felt this deep, dark pit of revulsion and despair in my core. I cried over it a couple times.

Today was the absolute last straw, the distress I was feeling was too much. I was gonna wait a couple more days before deciding whether to epilate or not, but I couldn't. I had enough.

Absolutely none of the other hair on my body makes me feel that way. I guess my face is just the one spot I need to be bare.

Going forward, I think I'm gonna try to just epilate much less frequently than I was. No more shaving because that shit's annoying.

#I don't know how to tag this #I'm very comfortable with being perceived as feminine or completely neutral #but being perceived as masculine makes me want to step out of my skin and run screaming #I still want to experiment with my clothes but I'm done with the facial hair #if anyone ever called me sir I would absolutely die instantly. nope no don't like that #Deadass I would rather be completely incomprehensible than appear to be a man #(anyone stumbling on this from outside my blog I'm demigirl and use she/they. still figuring some shit out about how I feel about myself.) #gender stuff #gender

[butchcharliee]

.

#gender is confusing lol #my dad just called me a simple chick and i didnt hate being called a chick o.O #BUT at the same time #he sees me as a women and i dont like that :[ #so idk lol #i like to be recognized as someone who is masculine y know masc terms #but there are some feminine terms i don't mind!! #i just dont like it when people use it on me tho bc it does make me feel dysphoric and/or misgendered #v confusing #and im still figuring out if he/him pronouns are right for me lol #*i also want to be seen as a boy but not in a binary man way

[ratgirlcopia]

[bones creaking with every step i take] i think a lot of copia's self-image issues would start resolving themselves pretty quick with a transition arc. but that's just me.

#copiaposting #i see a lot of copia's gender stuff being a bit more social dysphoria than physical dysphoria. #which may sound. interesting. given my plastic surgery takes. but i think that's like. rooted in social dysphoria too. #to me a key thing about copia's Everything in the chapters is that underlying vibe of...not getting perceived correctly. #like... not getting titled correctly by imperator/not being taken seriously by nihil. #and then like. hypercorrecting toward masculinity in a way that both doesn't work and makes him seem kind of miserable. #and tbh i read the like. disappointment at imperator not calling him papa as less “this is the title i want” and more like... #“what the hell i did all that and suppressed so much of myself and i don't even get the title” #which is SOOOOO ripe for some ghovie plot point that's like. alright copia! you did it and they still never titled you correctly! #at which point copia “snapping” and just doing whatever the hell it is he actually wants to do would be the natural Thing. #[waves hand] hence the transition/drag show arc that makes perfect sense in my head. you see. #where was i going with this. oh yeah. #i feel like copia going “oh. i'm a woman” would make a lot of the uhhh self-image issues start falling off. #no longer striving for the impossible (parental approval) and instead just going “oh THIS is what i needed/wanted all along.” #i feel like that would result in less of the...[gestures to the vague yet constant sense of misery and inadequacy wafting off him] #bad at being a papa worse at being a man great at being a middle aged gamer woman. is my personal interpretation.

[reenaria]

currently having a queer identity crisis on this accursed holiday

#but actually. i’ve realized that like. 95% or more of my attraction to men has been comphet #i thought it wasn’t because i’ve been more or less identifying as bi since i was 11 #so like. i figured if i didn’t like men at all i would’ve figured it out sooner? #it wasn’t until a couple years ago that i resolved to stop dating straight & masculine guys because i feel like i’m performing for them #and my current partner of 2.5 years is amab and socially perceived as a man but he’s bi and sees himself as ‘void of gender’ #which is also the way i see him but not the way most people see him #he does get mistaken for a woman a fair ammount though. which brings us both a lot of joy lol #but anyway. my crisis is that i’ve been feeling more and more detached from the bi label because i feel like it implies attraction to men #and i’ve known for a little while now that i’m almost exclusively attracted to femininity and androgyny #and primarily attracted to women in general #like if i weren’t with my partner i would 100% be out there dating women and maybe? identifying as a lesbian #but i feel like i have no claim to that label especially with my current partner who is not a woman and is much more androgynous than fem #idk. do i keep calling myself bi? it feels like i’ve slipped away from it #i’ve been using queer a lot more lately because umbrella terms are the only thing that seem to make sense to me anymore #i know labels can be super complicated and unhelpful in some cases but i also want to know where my place is in the community ya know? #i feel so confused without a solid label and it’s causing me a lot more stress than it should #(also my partner is such a blessing and said he’d be supportive if i ever felt i needed to leave him to be with women) #(like he said ‘i’d be sad for a while but i’d still be your best friend) and i was just 🥺 #this may be even longer than my last tag novel lmao i just hate the idea of putting this stuff in the body of the post #anyway if any pals/mutuals read all that and have any insight or advice i’d be curious to hear #reena.txt

[im-smart-i-swear]

self-indulgent fnin doodles cause existance is Not Fun right now:/

#my art #felix and nika bonding over having the worst organ in the human body(uterus)(i HATE that bitch) #sorry this is kinda dumb but. yeah.. #REALISTICALLY i feel like net would be grossed out by a situation like this but i can draw what i want!!! heheheh #so hes cool and supportive. cause i think that would be neat #uhhhhh actually ive been thinkin about net recently.. #okay so hear me out- transfem net. #like........ the casual misoginy and shit being a product of net's weird love-hate relationship with feminity??? #they want and crave it but always saw being a girl as 'playing w/ barbie dolls' and 'not understanding technology' and they dont want THAT #but they want to be called pretty and wear a dress sometimes? #so he just kinda represses all those weird complicated feelings and tries his best to be manly and strong and #Not Like Those Stupid Girls who are beyond his comprehension #and then maybe felix comes out as a trans guy and net decides to do some research on trans ppl and #actually starts to realise they relate to these people?? #and it takes a LOT of time and introspection but she figures it out. eventually. #and shes still Net! she still scoffs at romantic musicals and is terminally online and a teenage genius and a snarky bitch- #but she also doesnt have to prove her masculinity to anyone. she doesnt have to put girls down for being girls and she #starts to appriciate them as people and not prizes to be won by boys #i dont know if this makes any sense whatsoever but...... i like this idea! i like net realising casual sexism Is Not Funny Actually #i like nika helping her figure things out and try diffrent things and see feminity as something fun and exciting #like i dont think net would suddenly start wearing all pink or something! shes just. herself. #and that means watching horror movies and saving the world from an evil a.i. and movie nights at felixs and hating to admit when shes wrong #yeah. something to think about i guess. #fnin #felix net i nika #sorry this propably makes no sense lol

[euphoniouspandemonium]

Okay okay I hope I don't sound annoyed (even though honestly I kinda am) but mix up my names for the love of god.

#or if you have to default to something default to syd #and i know people are more than accepting etc etc whatever point is i use four names and you can get like 20 nicknames for one of them #and jana is neither gender neutral nor masculine. and if im feeling dysphoric being called a feminine name is not gonna fucking help. #but if you call me syd or vester or whatever on a more femme day that's not gonna bother me #this is not to call out anybody in particular of course but like. i found me some fun names that make me feel like my gender #and what's the fucking point if im still just jana in people's eyes. yk. #so yeah basically mix them up <3 it's okay if youve defaulted to jana im not mad but yeah

[corneille-moisie]

now that i think about it, it's more than likely that the first time i saw the word "gender" in a non-cis context was also in a blam honey context

so i probably legitimately have ryonai to thank for the first step of my "i'm not a girl/woman" realization 🤔

#the thing is that it took me a long time because... #well because its complicated really #part of it was that i thought i didnt have dysphoria #but i do or i dud have dysphoria just not the 'typical' way ? #i just had to learn to un-gender my body shape tbh #so i ended up with feminine but not female #like gender fluid from femme to butch to nope 🤔 #the nope is very strong nowadays 🤷🏻‍♀️ #but also like 0% male but some % masculine #ive learn to like my little mustache you know :3 #im still learning to stop feeling shame about my body hair cause thanx so-called beauty standards #but im more comfortable in my body and gender than i ever was #a gender post

[pankomako]

normally i dont like to look at my own face but when i went to the dermatologist recently (for my acne) i caught a few glances of a picture of my side profile - they take pictures to compare my acne between appointments - and im like yeah no yup that adam's apple sure is there. noticeable lump where my neck meets my jaw. and i coulda sworn the tip of my nose was more bulbous

#MASCULINE 👍 STILL GET CALLED A LADY ANYWAY #it must be the tits. like they're not big but you can still generally tell i have them despite my loose clothing #it's either that or the hair. maybe the way my mom doesnt let it curl on its own when she dries it #JUST LET IT CURL NATURALLY DAMMIT!!! i think to myself every time she pulls out the cylindrical brush thing #i havent had it cut in a while but honestly i kinda like it like this. feels like a lion's mane the way it falls on my shoulders #it's giving beast. or some kind of huge bulky middle ages warrior. except im not huge or bulky (yet #love tangenting in the tags of my own post. will anyone read this lmao