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bromelads · 7 months

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I am not playing the “you're racist if you say Ed is abusive" game with y’all 😒

This shit is not new or helpful to POC in the fandom. I wrote about it earlier this year (too little, too late), so I've built this post up from that.

I encourage folks to read this analysis and call to action by uselessheretic from back in JANUARY since it addresses key aspects of the harassment campaign that was par of the course for the fandom in 2022. This discourse plays into that harassment.

Listen, for all of its widely-held progressive values, the ofmd fandom is still a hobby space filled with mostly white, first world, LGBTQ+ ppl. Most ofmd fans fashion themselves leftists and generally agree that structural racism exists and is a problem. Overall, there's worse fandoms to be in.

That said, this particular wave of hand-wringing about fans calling Ed abusive is not at all about the ways indigenous people are stereotyped in media.

The most telling giveaway is the timing: fans expressing frustration towards Ed following the sneak peek that shows Fang, Archie, Jim, and Frenchie all but having an intervention for Izzy because they think he is "in an unhealthy relationship with Blackbeard" since Ed "cut two more of his toes...[which] seems pretty toxic to me."

I am not emotionally prepared to deconstruct the dark humor of holding a spontaneous intervention for your asshole white assistant manager who's on his last fucking wit because your brown and beautiful rockstar boss is too high to function and keeps cutting the guy's toes off. You either get the joke or you don't.

For the purpose of this post, all I care to extract from it is what it tells us about who is exercising the most control over the ship. Despite his physical absence, Ed’s ghost is all over this beautifully crafted scene. The tone of their wardrobe is dictated by Ed’s. They are carrying out Ed’s orders. Frenchie and Jim’s exclusive presence as former members of Stede’s crew was decided by Ed. Izzy’s authority as first mate is sanctioned by Ed. And it is Ed’s fitness to lead that Frenchie, Fang, Jim,and Archie are questioning ultimately.

I’m not particularly worried about Ed’s integrity as a charismatic lead being hurt by a storyline that paints him as someone who abuses power--the flow and exchange of power is a running theme for ofmd. Stede and Izzy themselves abuse their power in season 1 for their vanity. What I am worried about is this cute cultural feature of the wider ofmd fandom:

the chronic unwillingness to grapple with interpersonal power dynamics amongst peers, not only in the show, but in the fandom itself.

So here we are again, ofmd fandom, working ourselves up into a moral outrage so that you, in your leftist white glory, can publicly police yourself because apparently you only know how to experience People of Color in fiction through these two lenses:

white guilt (am I racist for thinking this? are people around me racist for thinking this?) and

the white imagination (stories about characters of color are valuable because they inform my politics)

This push against reading Ed as abusive is not about calling out the problematics of depicting an indigenous man as mentally ill, violent, lonely, and rageful, it is about trying to sound self-righteous to mask anxiety about accidentally doing a racism on the indigenous, brown lead.

This is even more obvious now with the season 2 premiere days away and audiences being primed to question whether the severity of Izzy's punishment was appropriate.

Now, here's the hard-to-swallow pill the ofmd fandom's been avoiding cuz we don't wanna point out the inevitable problems of representation within canon:

We are being served a storyline where a complex protagonist (who happens to be a brown, queer, indigenous man in a position of power) harms people who are close to him and we are meant to recognize this as a problem that he must come to terms with. I don't like it either, but I'd rather have this than no Ed story at all.

Other people have written far more intelligently about this than I could, but it bears repeating: what's happening here is fans projecting their own insecurities about racism and power onto a white character ("izzy exotifies ed!" "he wants to control ed!" "izzy is an incompetent pirate actually!") while at the same time applying a shiny veneer of respectability and perfect rationality to a nonwhite character ("ed had every right to hurt izzy!" "maiming is fair game as retribution for racism, it's in-world rules!" "ed can't be abusive because he's been abused!") in order to mask white leftist fandom's discomfort about a morally ambiguous brown protagonist.

Anyway, take a breath.

Ed is a character whose impact in "the real world" does indeed go beyond how he makes us feel. Taika Waititi's Edward Teach represents a watershed moment in indigenous representation—not only for his position as protagonist, not even for his queerness, but because of his depth, charisma, complexity, and connection to a community that cares about him. These things have been rarely afforded to the very few indigenous leads in the global film canon--no matter how his story is handled in season 2 and 3, Ed's impact has already been cemented.

Okay I'm done, here's some actionable advice to wash this all down with.

If your goal is to foster a welcoming environment for fans of color and elevate engagement with characters of color, then immediately remove shaming people's headcanons from your toolbox and read this article. Take stock of who is in your fandom social circle and take stock of what you do in order to at least see more fanworks featuring characters of color.

If your goal is to promote or participate in productive race-conscious conversations with other fans, get real about your relationship with power, your positionality in life (and in fandom) and the channels through which you want to have these conversations. Some questions to start with: Can you describe your relationship with your race? What is your experience talking about race in mixed-race spaces? What avenues do you use to participate in fandom? How do you participate? Where do you have influence? How do you manage unwanted feelings that spark from disagreements about racism?

If your goal is to interact in fandom with integrity, get explicit about your values. Engage in dialogue, treat others with the respect you want. Be curious and ask questions. Avoid becoming someone's useful idiot and learn to think critically.

Finally, if your goal is to enjoy your blorbos without having to think about the problematics of representation for QTBIPOC (Queer, Trans, Black, Indigenous, People of Color), then save us all the grief and just join a different fandom.

Good luck!

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averyhollow · 7 months

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Darth Ed?! Say it ain’t so!

I see people worrying about how fans will treat and characterize Ed in S2 if he goes to as dark a place as some advance viewers have claimed (and the show’s creator alluded to), and can’t help but laugh my ass off. If only there was a section of fandom that already saw Ed as having anger issues and less than healthy ways of addressing conflict and stress; but didn’t think it made him less than human, undeserving of love, in need of being saved by someone else, any worse than any of the other characters, or any less babychild. And among the subsection of that subsection, might be those who personally didn’t think he has what can be described as anger issues and/or a bit of a sadistic streak, but still didn’t automatically dismiss that view as inherently racist.

If. Only.

Because I’m sure those fans would be, generally speaking, more prepared to go into S2 (if it’s as dark as some claim/worry) without doing a complete 180 on their feelings for Ed or constantly scrambling to find ways to mitigate his actions in order to make them less horrible. Because those people been liked/loved that Ed, and/or accepted a dark-gray and complex view of him, and/or at the very least didn’t outright reject such views as inherently racist.

If. Only.

Ed already had fans (and people who dislike him but begrudgingly accept that he and That Other Creature are the leads and appreciate his layers), willing to show and argue that someome can think of him as having traits that manifest as “anger issues” without being racist about it or having arguments rooted in unexamined expectations towards non-white characters. They might even be more well-positioned to pick up on any 180-views of Ed that might be rooted in racism and double standards applied to non-white characters, since they’d have experience examining underlying arguments instead of making blanket dismissals.

If. Only.

Oh well, too bad no such fans exist.

#ofmd #ed teach #ofmd blackbeard #our flag means death #ofmd fandom crit #ofmd fandom discourse #ofmd fandom racism #the izcourse #which it’s kinda weird the izcourse works as a tag since shouldn’t this be about Ed. Unless…#a lot of the moralizing and blanket dismissals are but an extension of some people’s willingness to demonize Izzy fans at any cost.#and a chance for allies to call people sellouts and self-hating #which for them is as exciting as getting to openly call us racist slurs while not only getting away with it but being applauded for it.#Just when I thought my socmed block lists couldn’t get any longer.#Especially on the formerly bird-themed site. But every article and update brings out a few more.#ofmd s2 speculation

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incorrectquoteswwdits · 7 months

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It fits for all sides of the fandom!

#ofmd season 2 #ofmd s2 spoilers #ofmd season 2 spoilers #OFMD #I’m sorry I guess I’m just a multi fandom blog until WWDITS comes back #Izzy hands #OFMD meme #meme #Don’t start any discourse it’s just a fun meme

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skrifores · 5 months

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“You have to at least consider the interpretation of Ed as an abuser…”

I don’t have to do shit, hope that helps.

#ofmd fandom #ofmd #our flag means death #edward teach #the drama the discourse the pain #fandom is suffering #for fucks sake though

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movingundertheice · 5 months

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“they killed the suicidal character!”

babes, ed’s fine! you gotta finish ep 3!

#ed teach #ofmd meta #ofmd #my toxic trait is pretending I don’t understand that fandom has given the entire main character’s arc and storyline off to izzy hands #so their anger can feel more justified!#just be sad and normal about this p l e a s e I am begging yall #stop using therapy speech to justify your over reactions take 935 it’s exhausting #one izzy fan to another yall didn’t find that at all hot?????#tw suicide #the 💿🐴#ofmd discourse

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weirdly-specific-but-ok · 3 months

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pt II our flag means death but I've never watched it

HELLO OFMD FANDOM! It's the Good Omens Mascot and Resident Dumbass, back again for part II. First, let's clear the air of all controversy!

Some of you lovely maggots were kind enough to warn me about certain discourse about a salad spoon and also about a certain gentleman named Izzy. I was warned not to make assumptions and not to take sides, and I hear some members had to leave the fandom for a while because it got toxic. Maggots. All the rest of you. Worry not about me. I'm here to unite the OFMD fandom! How, you ask? By being so undeniably stupid in my own opinions that you all will have to unite to disagree with me. You underestimate the power of my dumbassery. Well, let's not dilly dally and dawdle, here's the updated summary:

I have been informed there is cannibalism on this ship but it is not real. Someone pretends to eat someone and then their wife helps them fake their death while they run away from the ship though their lover wanted them to run to China.

There are BDSM lesbians, which is honestly such a slay, Pinterest has let me down by not informing me of that when I made Part I. I will no longer be using Pinterest a reliable source in future academic essays.

Mermaid Stede performs necromancy while a song called Kate Bush plays (I don't know who this is, a politician? Idk whether of US or UK).

Gravy Basket is a destination and Buttons is a sea witch and there is educational stabbing. Buttons is then a bird because of the BDSM lesbians.

There is a lady who is extremely beautiful and intimidating and powerful and she has twenty husbands and I assumed incorrectly that you were all talking about a Jack Russel terrier.

Let's start with the controversy! Izzy. Secondary protagonist or antagonist? Good or bad? Kindly father figure or homoerotically charged friend? Necessary death or not? No no no. Behold:

I present a new question, a hot take sizzling from the pan: Did Izzy really exist?

Personally, I firmly believe that no, he did not. I believe that the rum on the ship was spiked with hallucinogens.

Izzy was simply the manifestation of Ed's Freudian subconscious, taking the shape of a human being, vaguely resembling a humanoid potato Ed was forced to boil as a kid. I was a psychology student with a final grade of 99% and I accept only destructive criticism on my posts thank you. Feel free to discuss whether he boiled the potato in a fit of rage or whether he was forced to.

There are assorted Ned's, Mary's and an uncertain number of Jeff's on ship.

One of the Jeff's is an accountant, and there is a nonbinary talking sword named Jim. Actually I'm not sure if they talk.

Love you all, rooting for the show to be renewed.

REMINDERS. Be polite to each other in the reblogs, on tumblr reblogs spread posts and not likes (which don't do anything for visibility) unlike other social media sites, but MOST IMPORTANTLY.

I ACCEPT ONLY DESTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, THIS BLOG IS A GODLESS, LAWLESS LAND, AND ALL RAGE AT EACH OTHER MUST BE REDIRECTED AT ME. UNDERSTOOD? YAY.

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autisticwriterblog · 6 months

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Izzy, Ed and abuse

okay, so I’ve seen a few people talking about Izzy and Ed, and it genuinely disturbs me that I’ve seen people deny that Izzy is a victim of abuse. By most definitions, physical abuse is categorised as causing physical harm to another person’s body with intent to hurt them. Some things, like punching Izzy for selling Stede out, or choking him for saying hateful stuff when Ed was at his lowest, whilst not acceptable in the real world, are perfectly normal reactions for a pirate to have toward a member of his crew, so I’m not talking about things like that.

But the toe scene and the early parts of season 2 are clearly abusive, and only by sheer character bias (framing Ed as someone who could never do anything wrong) can you look at the way Ed treats Izzy and not consider Izzy a victim. Izzy and Ed have had a mutually toxic relationship for a long time, judging by their interactions, but I personally only see abusive behaviour starting with the toe scene. And the abusive one is Ed. Which shouldn’t be a controversial thing to say, considering what we see on screen, and yet…

Even at the end of season one, we saw Ed cut Izzy’s toe off and force him to eat it, and it is confirmed in season 2 that he took two more toes. He is even about to take a fourth toe when Izzy reports that the crew refused to throw their treasure overboard, and Izzy doesn’t argue, much unlike in season 1, when he often bitched at Ed for his decisions. Now, Izzy just takes the punishment.

Things between them come to a head when Ed shoots Izzy in the leg, leading to infection, and the amputation of his leg. He even puts a gun in Izzy’s hand, directly leading to Izzy’s suicide attempt. And in the end, all Izzy gets is a mumbled apology and that's that.

I know many people don’t like Izzy, but do they not sympathise with him? I’ll be first to admit that I don’t like Ed and Stede (I used to, but season 2 made me dislike them more and more for reasons too complicated to go into now), but I feel bad for them when bad things happen to them. I got bullied as a child, so I sympathise with Stede in the flashbacks to his childhood, and I was horrified when I learned what Ed's father was like. I don't particularly like either of them, but I feel bad for them when they're suffering. Which is why I found it so strange and appalling that people who dislike Izzy seemed to find it funny when Izzy was crawling along the floor, or died a painful death.

Even ignoring Ed's treatment of Izzy, the way he treats the crew is abusive too. He overworks them, pushing them into three months of consecutive raids (assuming they did one raid a day), leaving them all so stressed that Fang seems to always be crying. He forces Jim and Archie to fight to the death for no reason other than he said so. He expects Frenchie to kill Izzy, and it is clear how terrified Frenchie is the entire time he lies to Ed. The whole crew walk on eggshells around Ed because they don't know when he'll explode again. Basically, even if Izzy isn't being mentioned (and he should for the record, because he got the worst treatment - and he didn't deserve it, despite that some people seem to think being mutilated is a fair punishment for yelling at Ed), Ed was still abusive towards the crew. During that time period, Ed is incredibly unstable. He wants the world to burn and doesn't care who gets hurt along with him. Which is why the crew still show signs of trauma after Stede returns. Because they are traumatised by Ed's behaviour.

I know that Ed is a victim of abuse, and I have seen people bring this up when his abusive behaviour is mentioned. The thing is, it's perfectly possible for a victim to become an abuser themself, because they're a human being and are capable of doing bad things. Yes, survivors don't have to become abusive (see: my mum, who was smacked as a child but never raised a hand to her own children, because she didn't turn out like her parents), but it can happen. And that is what happened with Ed. There is even a direct parallel between Ed's dad throwing a plate against the wall, scaring Ed's mother, and the scene where Ed throws a chair against the wall, making Stede visibly flinched. If you want someone to be annoyed with about this comparison, don't pick the fans who are just noticing something in canon - blame the show for writing Ed doing the same thing his abusive father did.

In conclusion, Izzy fans aren't just making things up. We're pointing out things that canon showed onscreen and how Ed's behaviour toward Izzy is abusive. I wanted to like Ed this season, but the way the show wrote him made it impossible for me to tolerate him, because he treated everyone badly and they were expected to just move on. I understand that Ed is a romantic lead, but perhaps it wasn't a good idea to make your romantic lead act so abusive toward his subordinates and then never show any real consequences of that.

#ofmd #ofmd s2 spoilers #izzy hands #the izcourse #ofmd critical #abuse tw #child abuse mention #discourse #fandom wank #ed teach critical #(although it's more about the show's writing than his character)

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suffersinfandom · 22 days

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Okay. OFMD discourse.

I see a lot of passive aggressive digs at "media literacy" and claims that we're watching different shows, and... I guess that's true? There's obviously a fundamental disagreement about what story OFMD is telling. Like, I feel like we need to sit down and do some kind of Story Analysis 101 just to make sure we all have the same foundational understanding of the show.

Like. What I was talking about in the first part of this post.

If you and everyone in your server are doing OFMD media analysis and you've all concluded that the show's main plot is the crew's storyline, you're going to come to very different conclusions than me. You're going to wonder why so much time in S2 was given to B plots and scenes that don't move the crew's story forward. You're going to be annoyed that so much of the season is devoted to Gentlebeard and not Izzy and his relationship with the crew. You might even conclude that the whole show is an example of "bury your gays" because the central queer character -- the character whose development is, in your eyes, the heart and soul of the show -- dies at the end.

The thing is? The "big cliffhanger" of S1 was not the crew's separation, and the first episodes of S2 aren't about the crew's reunion and Izzy's arc. Izzy and the crew are not the show's protagonists. Stede and Ed are the protagonists; their relationship is the main plotline. It's very silly to call S2E4 a "mistake" that "[shoves] the show's main plot and most of the characters into 1 minute scenes in between much longer gentlebeard scenes" because the Gentlebeard scenes are the main plot.

Prior to OFMD, my favorite characters were always secondary and a lot of my personal analysis focused on action that fell outside of the main story. Heck, one of my blorbos of choice takes an antagonistic role to the story's protagonists, and yeah, I sure do sympathize with him even though he's not positioned as the guy who's in the right. But I'm always aware of my blorbo's place in the narrative.

It's okay if your favorite character(s) aren't the protagonists of a story. It's okay if the plotline you're most interested in isn't the main one. It's okay if you hang out in the corners of fandom that focus on the parts of the story you care the most about. It's even okay if you're mad at OFMD for letting you down by not giving enough time and attention to the bits that are the most important to you.

Just.

Stede and Ed are the protagonists. OFMD is, first and foremost, about their relationship. When I see analysis that denies this, I feel like I'm completely losing my mind.

#ofmd #ofmd fandom #fandom critical?#idk i feel like a crazy person sometimes #and sometimes this fandom is frustrating #ofmd discourse

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pastryjay · 6 months

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No, OFMD did not 'promise' the viewers a safe time (only happiness, no angst or death) then 'betray' them with Izzy's death, as i've seen some complaining.

The show is called Our Flag Means Death and there is death and angst from season 1 episode 1. At no point did the showrunners promise us 'this is a show where all characters will remain safe'.

Being a comedy doesn't mean the story will be all joy and light. Comedies using upsetting topics and death is not unusual. It's actually quite common! If done well, comedy can give a contrast to angsty moments making them more heartbreaking.

The writers have a story they wanted to tell and have said since season 1 aired that there is a 3 season plan for the show. It's likely that they planned major plot points for each season (like Izzy's death) before S1 was filmed. They didn't change the plot to kill Izzy because they wanted to make the show darker or to spite fans. You are not owed a perfectly happy story when the writers have set out to tell something different.

If you're a person who can only handle stories where everyone is always happy, that's fine! Stories like that exist! It just makes no sense to watch a show with death in the title then blame the writers for 'betraying' you when death happens.

#ofmd #our flag means death #I know i'm not good at making my thoughts concise.#ofmd spoilers #ofmd discourse #look I promise I won't only post about OFMD discourse. i've blocked and muted a lot of people on twt and Tumblr.#The fandom is going to calm down.#OFMD is my special interest and I won't hold back from defending it when I see unfair criticism.

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jaskierx · 8 months

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please be normal about stede being in plain clothes in the s2 stills

stede’s clothing has fuck all to do with the ‘becoming a man’ stuff that was said at eccc

equating stede dressing in a less femme way with him ‘becoming a man’ is explicitly and offensively homophobic

#fucking right wing grandparent ass take tbh #anyway #enough discourse back to the JOY we’re getting them BACK #ofmd #stede bonnet #fandom critical #lyse.jpg #ofmd s2

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poison-into-positivity · 3 months

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Still trying to wrap my head around the argument that anyone who donated to the billboard/renewal campaign is a deplorable human being.

On the surface I can see why people are angry about it! it is a huge sum of money that went to something “frivolous”, and in the midst of a genocide I completely understand that you want someone more tangible and reachable to be mad at because everything feels hopeless and out of control. And the renewal campaign is a big thing that’s happening right now, and it’s easy to target that.

But also understand that it is small amounts of money coming from thousands of people.

Consider: hundreds of thousands of dollars are going into the pockets of streaming services every month from people all over the world who are paying to watch TV. That’s frivolous, isn’t it? Are you calling out all of your friends and family members who still have Netflix subscriptions? If someone buys a merch hoodie for $60, does that make them evil? Are you calling them out too, and your favorite artists who are still selling that merch? If I buy a $30 hardcover book for myself, am I advocating genocide? Are you standing outside Barnes and Noble and shaming everybody who comes out with a novel in their arms? No, because that’s unsustainable and unproductive.

Could that $10k have gone toward something “better”? Yes, absolutely. But the same is true about all non-essential purchases. All I’m saying is that, unless you’re extending that same energy toward people who don’t donate every penny of their disposable income, your argument is inconsistent, and you’re picking fights just to pick fights.

It’s a delicate and nuanced conversation. And I want to reiterate that I completely understand where that argument is coming from. Everything feels hopeless and this renewal campaign is a big, loud target. Even I have conflicting feelings about it. But at the end of the day, the people who helped fund that billboard are not your enemy.

If you disagree with me, that’s alright. Just block me, move on, and put that energy toward calling your reps.

#there are legitimate people to be upset and angry with and I promise you that none of them are active in ofmd fandom spaces #ofmd #hoist the ads discourse

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bromelads · 7 months

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Wait, are you telling me that to enjoy or criticize OFMD characters I have to use "different lenses" for each of them instead of treating them all the same regardless of their skin color? Or did I misunderstand your words?

Hello! Yeah, I think there was a misunderstanding there :P

When I say "lens," I mean a theoretical framework through which to experience and analyze something (a piece of media, in this case). Being able to learn different theoretical frameworks in order to analyze a literary work, world event, even your local news, is a key part of developing critical thinking.

At its most basic level, "adopting a new lens" in media is the equivalent of consciously choosing to adopt the perspective of a different character for each watch. For example, back in May 2022, David Jenkins invited fans to rewatch season 1 through the lens of Edward and Izzy's relationship. If you went and rewatched the show by looking at it from the perspective of Ed and Izzy's relationship, or Roach's perspective, or Buttons' perspective, or Spanish Jackie's perspective, or Mary's perspective, you successfully applied a different lens to it!

When I called out the ofmd fandom for "only [knowing] how to experience People of Color in fiction through these two lenses: white guilt and the white imagination," I was pointing out that, as a predominantly white space, the ofmd fandom is firmly grounded on white normativity, a cultural perspective that prioritizes the feelings (guilt) and thoughts (imagination) of white people.

So no, I am not calling for the adoption of separate, individual critical lenses for characters of color and white characters: I'm asking for a wider, conscious adoption of critical lenses that challenge white normativity for the sake of increasing empathy for the characters of color (and by extension, People of Color).

If you're interested in applying a framework to OFMD that exists outside of white normativity: I've been applying a postcolonial lens to my analysis of the show and intend to do so again come season 2! I've read a few story and character analyses that borrow from postcolonial theory here and there, but haven't seen a fully formulated essay that successfully applies it.

#hablanndo #thanks for the ask!#hope I addressed your question #assuming good faith here #fandom discourse #ofmd fandom discourse #fandom racism #ofmd meta #la meta de mi meta #ask

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averyhollow · 1 year

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@bromelads is amazing. I can’t say enough in praise of the kindness, patience, love, good will, and thought that are going into this conversation and spreadsheet; and I hope it’s genuinely appreciated by those it’s in reply to.

I think my main takeaway is that I have no common ground with a lot of people who consider themselves “Izzy critical” or anti-Izzy, and can’t say I think we care about the same things. I think that’s a good realization for me to come to and one that’ll hopefully make it so much easier for me to focus on letting what I see as inflexible assertions stemming from respectability politics and/or paternalistic racism, float on by.

Looking through the responses from “Izzy critical”, and feeling the comments so far are reaffirming positions I believe flatten BIPOC characters due to their inflexibility; and that I think are prevalent not only out of a desire to center the voices of BIPOC, but out of a desire to have a Right Answer that’s coupled with bias towards certain characters and ships.

The more I look at the arguments being made, the more I see them as the liberal/leftist counterparts to socially conservative justifications for excluding BIPOC from certain roles; or (likely unintentional) smokescreens for infantilization, sanitization, respectability politics, and dehumanization (e.g., the idea that interpreting Ed as having “anger issues” is a microagression in and of itself has some pretty fucked up implications to me). It’s not the differences in opinions and interpretations themselves that are the problem for me. It’s the insistence on making blanket statements about which ones do, or don’t, inherently reflect racist bias or reinforce racist narratives.

I think there are a number of reasons most of the headcanon and interpretations discussed should leave room for agreement to disagree that don’t involve calling the interpretations in question microaggressions in and of themselves. But that space so often isn’t there. I feel like it’s not conversation at this point. I’m not sure I can even envision what my ideal recommendations for actionable items might be in the current environment, since I think the ship has sailed on suggestions like:

maybe don’t respond to individual fanworks, but instead comment on trends and issues you notice in your own space, and tag in a way that’s easy to find for those willing to look

if responding to something/someone directly, approach with the intent of getting your perspective and counterarguments understood, and not with the intent of getting them agreed with

if responding to someone directly, keep the same energy you would for the cast, crew, and creators of the show when/if they make similar points

consider if something happened onscreen that didn’t sit right with you and you’re making authoritative claims about how it’s meant to be interpreted in order to square your love of the show with something you find problematic, and consider how your relationship to the show might change if you’re wrong about the intent

ask people about their specific reasoning for an interpretation instead of making blanket denouncements of certain interpretations

don’t outsource responsibility for your personal views to some mythical monolithic BIPOC community

if you’re white, ask yourself if you engage with and hype up the opinions and meta of BIPOC whose interpretations you don’t agree with entirely, or at all. If not, why?

if you’re white, are you about to say something that you’re willing to stand by and defend regardless of the race of who you’re replying to or if contradicting opinions from BIPOC are presented? Or are you going to bounce the moment you’re openly confronted with a situation where no matter what position you espouse, you’re gonna have to take responsibility for holding a position BIPOC disagree with and are made uncomfortable by?

or any number of other ideas I have that are rooted in an opinion that it’s unhelpful and tokenizing to make blanket statements intended to spin objective truths from subjective material.

So I think all I can, or want, to do at this point is focus on my own engagement patterns and work on being more considerate about when and how I engage in, and disengage from, arguments. Will also continue to vent frustrations with other BIPOC who love my grumpy gremlin, are neutral about him, or otherwise find themselves exhausted, frustrated, or erased by posts advising that EdIzzy is an inherently racist and abusive ship, or that the ship name BlackBonnet is offensive to Black fans.

#long reads #the izcourse #ofmd discourse #OFMD fandom discourse

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skrifores · 5 months

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I have seen the point being made that you don’t have to be in a romantic relationship for some behaviour to constitute domestic violence. I’m seeing this said with regards to Our Flag Means Death and what some people perceive as domestic abuse on Ed’s part - that him not being romantically involved with Izzy shouldn’t mean behaviour between can’t be considered domestic abuse.

It is an excellent point that in many places, the definition of domestic abuse isn’t restricted to intimate partners! It is often widened to consider any violence, coercion and emotional harm taking place within a home environment. Under this definition, children can be victims of domestic abuse by their parents, it can occur between siblings, even roommates - especially with a live-in landlord situation. And of course, the Revenge as well as being a workplace is ultimately where the characters live.

I think it’s very clear that the show is a workplace comedy about pirates, but if you want to apply the definition of violence, coercion and emotional harm within a home environment to your reading to the show, that can be done.

Of course, I would be surprised if you genuinely view it that way and still made it as far as even watching Season 2, given the way what you consider to be domestic abuse in this fictional setting happens so very often with little to no moral consequence, and is often intended to be taken as a joke.

I mean. In the very first episode, the crew talk about killing Stede, and begin to plan for this, including lighting him on fire.

Jim threatens Lucius and actually physically locks him in a small wooden box in the second episode for what seems to be quite a long time.

I think in 4, Izzy pulls on Fang’s beard and it really upsets him. He also talks pretty openly about the intention to kill the Revenge crew, though I’ll let that go at this stage since he doesn’t really live there so much as being there for the purpose of murdering them and stealing their stuff. Still, poor Fang, that looked like it hurt.

While we’re on Izzy, he does also actively try to kill Stede by stabbing him, and he then he goes and does the olde worlde equivalent of calling the cops on him on the intention of having him executed, which seems pretty fucked up on the ‘violence’ part of our DA definition but also hits pretty hard on coercive control since he’s doing this to get Ed to behave differently.

He does prevent the Navy from executing Ed, which is nice, but he does point out that he regrets this, which, ouch, emotional harm. If we’re doing real world definitions, “I should’ve let the cops I called on you murder you” is the sort of thing that would make me feel pretty fucked up. And we all know what it means when someone tells you to watch your step.

But it’s not all about Izzy! (It’s really not, guys, there’s a whole TV show here!) Buttons bites Lucius - who ends up needing the whole finger gone! And he’s a visual artist!

Even my darling man Roach tries to eat the Swede, and I’ve gotta say, I don’t think they were on that island long enough to justify murder.

And who could forget Mary?? Wonderfully written character, love her, but, she does with malice aforethought attempt to kill her spouse in his sleep with a skewer. She was right to do it, in my opinion, but y’know, even without broadening the definition beyond partner relationships, murder of your spouse is pretty classic domestic abuse.

So, y’know, the point I’m getting at really is that if your definition of domestic abuse is violence and control wherein the perpetrator and victim share a significant aspect of their lives like living space - that’s a fine definition in real life. It is the one I use, in real life. But if you apply it to Our Flag Means Death, I really don’t understand how you stomached watching the first season or why you came back for more.

And if you only apply this definition with regards to Ed’s behaviour, but not the rest of the characters, I do wonder why that might be.

#our flag means death #ofmd fandom #ofmd #ofmd season 2 #trigger warnings #domestic abuse #warning for domestic abuse #domestic violence #crew of the revenge #izzy hands #edward teach #stede bonnet #apparently I woke up this morning and chose discourse #I don’t know why #but there we are #the izcourse

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naranjapetrificada · 6 months

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Maybe I've just curated my dash well but anecdotally, I haven't seen almost anyone express disapproval of the Izzy arc in this particular way, which I would agree is judgy and unproductive. The main concerns I've been seeing (and hopefully expressing, although maybe not effectively) have been from:

People reminded of traumas/relationship dynamics reflected in Izzy and Ed's s1 relationship in general, or specific parts of it like Izzy telling Ed he was better off dead than acting so f*ggy.

People who feel like point number 1 is being retroactively minimized by the narrative (not the characters, the narrative) not acknowledging the role Izzy played in setting off Ed's Kraken era.

People who have seen their abusers get to control the narrative around harm they caused, which the narrative silence around points 1&2 seems to underline.

People who have been gaslit about their traumas and/or felt like the only person in the proverbial room who remembers that something harmful happened.

People who see Izzy suffering and then being granted grace, and walk away concerned that the message is being sent that suffering is the path to forgiveness, which would be a dangerous message period but is especially perplexing from this show in particular.

(I'm not here to argue with any of those interpretations if Izzy or his actions so save us both the energy, I'm here to talk about the post I linked.)

I can understand how, from any of those perspectives, the Izzy arc has felt like a sour note in an otherwise great season. I certainly haven't been able to engage with it as fully as I had hoped to do when I first saw hints of where things might go while watching the first episodes of the season.

I don't need a big speech or conversation about it all or even that much screen time devoted to it. But if the narrative wants me to buy a redemption arc for Izzy, the narrative needs to acknowledge what he's being redeemed for in the first place. When I talk about what's "earned" I'm talking about what the narrative has earned, not the characters. And right now, the narrative doesn't feel like it has earned more than me holding my nose to get through Izzy redemption scenes. And that's sad for me, because I've never felt like that about this show before.

I don't believe you earn forgiveness, or that you atone for your actions for someone else's sake. True forgiveness is something that the wronged party grants for their peace of mind. True atonement is something you do for yourself to make peace with yourself what you have done. Neither is "earned", much less through groveling or suffering. But both require acknowledging and reflecting on the truth of what happened, and that lack of narrative acknowledgement is the missing stair so many of us are having to learn how to work around when it comes to watching this season.

#and yeah I guess you could make some kind of metatextual argument about the missing stair #and how it's a perfect metaphor for Izzy the character too #which should allegedly make it fit within the narrative after all #but if that's the case then the execution is still lacking something and that makes me sad #because so many other things this season have been great!#our flag means death #ofmd #ofmd meta #ofmd s2 spoilers #ofmd s2 #ofmd season 2 #ofmd spoilers #ofmd season 2 spoilers #izzy hands #fandom #ofmd fandom #the discourse #the izcourse

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ourflagmeansgayrights · 8 months

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also ok i know i was poking fun at some of the responses from izzy fans to the vanity fair article but some izzy haters on twitter were also being so fucking annoying about the con quotes. getting mad about some nonspoiler quotes they got from the guy during his downtime like my besties in fandom we literally do not even have a trailer all we have are eight entire pictures and an article written by someone who spent one (1) entire day on the set. y’all do not need to get this worked up that con o’neill answered questions about his own character and was quoted by a pop culture magazine. calm tf down.

#ofmd #our flag means death #ofmd s2 #ofmd season 2 #izzy hands #dizzy izzy #con o'neill #s2 hiatus hell txt #txt #og #mine #the izcourse #<- idk i guess??#wasn’t really discourse it was just people tweeting in their own general circles #it was all either “HUGE IZZY FOCUS S2 🥳🥳🥳” or “HUGE IZZY FOCUS S2 🤬🤬🤬”#when to me personally the signs do not point in that direction but i could be wrong!#anyway my takeaway from being on twitter for 5 minutes on the day that article dropped is that everyone in the fandom #is getting WAY ahead of themselves

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