#webtoons discourse

[rosesnwater]

Content Warnings and A Lesson From Lore Olympus

As some of you may know, I write a comic, which i occasionally post about here. I'd like to address a conversation around creators and content warnings in this post as well as the general tremd of authors overstating whats happening in their story. I've seen it come up recently in webtoon discourse within my own comic.

So first off, right after my three page prologue I have an authors note that details all the topics my comic will be going into throughout the course of the story.

It follows:

These are ALL the issues I tackle within the comic and I leave it here so people can decide whether they want to continue with the story. I have labeled my story as mature. There is a warning when anyone accesses the comic for the first time on both Webtoons and Tapas. I also have warnings that come in three degrees that I place before each episode that handles one of the mature themes I mention. However, what I don't do is tell the reader what they're going to see before they see it. I don't like doing this for a couple reason, some of the most important being, I think makes the story redundant because it's already explaining what's going to happen and this in turn disrupts the narrative.

I understand why people feel strongly about warnings and making content safe on a platform with a young audience. However, seeing as this is a work I have invested a considerable amount of time in, that I'm offering for people to enjoy (which i enjoy doing), I believe it is important I tell the story in my own way.

When you pick up a book you may get a warning in the synopsis (although I find this is rare) or in other people's online reviews of the book BUT you have to go looking for those reviews. As a creator I can only testify to my own experience, but like novels, comics are stories and in my own work, the story should NOT be bisected by warnings expressly stating what's going to happen in each episode.

I feel this speaks to a general increased uninvolvement in the material readers are reading and a lack of reading comprehension to the point authors think it necessary to guide their audience through their story.

There has been a decent amount of discourse in the UnpopularLoreOlympus reddit thread about readers reading comprehension. It is now common practice to have images like the one bellow before an episode.

On more than one occasion Rachel has put warning paragraphs at the end of her episode stating without any subtext what EXACTLY a character meant during the episode, even though readers would ideally understood the subtext as communicated by the narrative.

And before that she would have warnings signs like this before episodes where the content would be present:

The above warning is actually quite common amongst comics but it should NOT be required by the audience. If an author is doing their job, they'll have the proper box ticked off when submitting their webtoon

SPOILERS FOR MANY WORKS OF FICTION.

No one tells you at the beginning of jane Eyre that there will be violence, death of children, and abuse, let alone where these incidents will occur.

The hunger games won't warn you before the start of a chapter that there will be starvation or gruesome depictions of character death or content describing mental illness.

Most movies will have warning before the whole movie but they won't briefly cut out of the narrative to tell you what's about to happen and people shouldn't expect comic artists to do this either.

As a comic creator i am rellyng upon my audience's discretion to decide on whether or not a story is safe for their consumption. However, I'm adamant in my own work that that's where my required involvement ends.

I will explain things in the comments or answer reader questions, i will be happy doing so because i get to engage with people on something Ive spent hours creating. I will go onto my discord and jump into the deep world building or explain a particular scene, but this should not be required.

Holding authors accountable for going thoroughly over the controversial issues every episode they post is unreasonable and honestly (for me) damaging to the creative work. We end up with situations like lore olympus where authors are there to explain every warning and subtext to the audience without any work on the readers part.

I know this may be controversial to some, but as a creator, it's something that's bothered me for a while and something I think we should be able to talk about in the artistic community.

#webtoons discourse #webtoons rant #creators #readers #lore olympus #netvor #comic #tapas #webtoons #unpopular lore olympus

[reblogwhoreowo]

“we need more morally gray women in fiction” y’all couldn’t even handle rashta from the remarried empress.

#the remarried empress #rashta #navier #heinrey #sovieshu #kaufman #webtoons #WEBTOON #tre #fandom #fandom discourse

[evadingreallife]

I feel like i have the mob countdown going on in my brain and when it's filled i'll finally go read the dunmeshi manga.

#dungeon meshi #dunmeshi #for context: i strongly dislike reading manga #it just doesnt do anything for me personally as a medium #i can read a book i can watch an anime but if i gotta read AND watch still pictures at the same time my brain will just go on strike #idk why its always been like that #especially if its black and white #dont ask me #point is i can read webtoons just fine but manga sends me into my own kind of hell where ive been wanting to read the tokyo ghoul manga for #the last 10 years i kid you not but havent yet and probably never will cause i cant stand to read mangas #back to dunmeshi ive been seeing so many spoilers and discourse about anime vs manga that i might just try again and go look for the manga #but i wont make any promises about going through with it ive learned my lesson thank you #i just want to know what the fuck is up with falin and get more marcille in my life

[ghostinacardboardbox-oldblog]

From what I’ve seen, it seems like at DC fans fall into a few specific categories:

The Purist: keeps up to date on every run they possibly can, has read even the obscure storylines, has extremely strong opinions on adaptions, and will fucking kill you if you like WFA or whatever. The sworn enemy of the Fanfic Enjoyer, and also often has beef with other categories on the list, but not always.

The Fanfic Enjoyer: has never read a single comic and may or may not have any interest in changing that. Their favorite is usually whoever is currently Tumblr’s Special Little Boy. All of their knowledge comes from fanfiction based on other fanfiction and the occasional wiki page.

The Animation Observer: they’ve never read a comic, but they watch all the animated stuff. They avoid the live action like the plague. If they do watch live action, they’re very selective about it, but it’s worth it because their recommendations all slap. They may or may not have an interest in the comics, but for now cartoons are enough.

The Neutral Third Party: the backbone of the fandom tbh, they read comics but don’t really have an opinion on what the “right” way to enjoy DC is. They’re probably here mainly for the characters and as such don’t see a point in arguing canon details. Usually neutral or even friendly to the Fanfic Enjoyer in a way that others sometimes aren’t.

The Webtoon Reader: they read all the webtoon content but not much or even nothing else, so they can’t really be considered the Fanfic Enjoyer because they have, technically, read more than one comic but their knowledge is extremely limited and often not accepted by the Purists. They either don’t have the opportunity to read the actual comics or just straight up aren’t interested.

The Danny Phantom Fan: a subtype of the Fanfic Enjoyer, they read one too many crossover fanfictions and are now obsessed with Jason Todd.

#tag yourself I’m having a little journey rn from Danny Phantom Fan to Fanfic Enjoyer to a combination Webtoon Read and Animation Observer #eventually I’ll get my grubby lil hands on some comics and it’ll be nice #but until then I’m uhhhh just hanging out #please don’t make this a discourse post this is just for funsies giggles haha please please please don’t be weird #ghost posts from their box #dc #dc comics #relatable content

[flushed-for-the-trolls]

Boyfriends isn’t “Bad LGBTQ+ Rep” It’s perfectly fine. You just don’t like effeminate Queer people. 

They’re not hypersexualized, they’re gay adult men in a committed relationship, gay people have sex, Todd. I’m sorry to have to break it to you.

You’re not helping out gay people, you’re trying to silence abnormalities in favor of appealing to the boring norm. I am not ashamed of wearing leggings, of having a sex drive, of being DIFFERENT.

Research and actually UNDERSTAND the words you throw out before you decide to die on this (quite frankly) pathetic hill.

It’s so sad that you want to white knight so hard that you’re feeding into homophobia. You are helping no one, you’re a pawn for homophobes to use.

#I wanted to make this for a while but never got around to it #The first criticism specifically gets me so riled up #boyfriends webcomic #boyfriends webtoon #boyfriends comic #boyfriends #boyfriends discourse #I will not apologize #i will not take criticism #it reeks of internalized homophobia tbh

[onebattygirl]

The Most Hated Webcomic That Did Nothing Wrong.

#youtube #fandom #media literacy #video essay #fandom discourse #fandom culture #webtoon #boyfriends #boyfriends webtoon #the coffin of andy and leyley

[zootzbootz]

people will put "boyfriends (webtoon) fans dni" on their profiles while being south park fans. when the actual material of that show is ten million times worse.

But real talk for a second.

Mind you, his is coming from a south park FAN. As for the bfs webtoon I don't like it but I'm not an "anti" lmao kids blew that WAY out of proportion. you can enjoy media made by problematic people or that itself contains problematic elements, just be critical of what you're consuming and my god don't be a hypocrite about it. I had to learn this the hard way. (because yes, being a south park fan and condemning people for liking the boyfriends webtoon is absolutely hypocritical, LMFAO)

#kind of discourse #discourse #ranty post #/lh #genuinely #be critical of media u consume #south park #boyfriends webtoon #- 🔪

[discoursegirl]

Okay I'm curious, have any of you heard of the boyfriends webtoon or the hate it's gotten?

For context it's just a slice of life comic about a gay polycule that antis has over-hated to hell and back.

#proship #proshippers #proshipping #anti anti #proshipper #fandom #fandom discourse #webtoon #boyfriends webtoon #boyfriends webcomic #pro boyfriends

[helpmeimblorboing]

I know y'all hate Boyfriends for some unfathomable reason - and I get it, honest I do - the audio version nearly made me kill myself

But honestly this was my first ever exposure to queerness at all, and so this webcomic will always hold a very special place in my heart

I don't know if the allegations against the author are true, but the webcomic is still cute, and if he's racist or antisemitic.... well, I don't think it's leaked into his work

#boyfriends #refrainbow #boyfriends webtoon #boyfriends discourse #refrainbow discourse #lgbt #queer #gay

[feralmyth]

I wish the ppl who hate the Boyfriends webtoon a very shut the fuck up. Stop being a dick about a cutesy gay comic focusing on gay trans polyamory by a gay trans polyamorous guy. Go find something to enjoy and stop killing your heart health and mental health going feral over a webcomic. Touch some fuckin grass

#no i will not accept criticism #its a fucking wholesome webcomic how in the world can there be anything wrong with it #stop finding reasons to be homophobic and transphobic #discourse #boyfriends #boyfriends webcomic #boyfriends webtoon

[winterwump]

I’m pretty sure the ppl in the Lookism subreddit hate women…

I got downvoted to hell and back bc I thought it was weird that they all hate Vivi while praising the men (mainly Gun) who are just as morally bankrupt. It’s misogyny and I’ll stand on that.

I know there are girls who hate Vivi but will go on and on about wanting to suck and fuck men who are worse. And those bitches have internalized misogyny to deal with. Cuz y’all are just as fucked.

If you disagree, you can argue with your mother not me.

#wumpuswrites #lookism #fandom #lookism fanart #its usually fun on there but wow #lookism discourse #webtoon lookism #lookism vivi #lookism gun #keep it cute cuz I love deleting comments

[rosesnwater]

Super Like on Webtoon

So I posted this a while back to reddit regarding the implementation of the super like on Webtoons. Just my general thoughts, I'm not entirely sold on it but I'm open to opinions from other webtoons users-

People might also be familiar with Tapas, which has inks, honestly they feel like the same thing but I might activate it to see how it works-

#comic #tapas #webtoons #webtoon canvas #webtoon discourse

[ladyriia]

" we were baited there wasn't any romaaaaance!!"

...

*long sigh*

Spoon said the main theme of her adaptation was family. The development of Athy's relationship with Claude and her self discovery.

How can readers be baited when she was clear about that from the beginning? She started adding more romance scenes at the end because fans were disappointed and she felt pressured??

Instead of whining because the story didn't end the way you wanted it to, maybe rethink about the way you guys treat authors? INA, the manhwa author of "The Abandoned Empress" had a very similar problem as well.

They work hard to give you great content and because it's not perfect, or not 100% accurate to the og material, some of you decide to just disregard that. Spoon was often sick towards the end of WMMAP but still worked hard to provide the best work she could.

But apparently it doesn't matter because because "but lUcAtHyyyyy !!"

Guys, grow up and do better.

And, at least, if you wanna criticize aspects of their work (which I've done too), don't do it right under their posts??

#wmmap #the abandoned empress #Manhwa #Webtoon #wmmap discourse #shipping discourse #manhwa discourse #I'm mad #who made me a princess #i suddenly became a princess #suddenly became a princess one day

[pousivuitton]

something thats so funny is when people are like "i hate lore olympus because they made apollo evil and hes not" like babes he's not evil but hes definitely an asshole in a couple of myths. Obviously a loose adaptation is gonna choose How and to what extent he's bad but like, Apollo's not Not a dick.

I feel like the same can be said for a lot of lore olympus criticisms, like "yeah fair but... it's not as deep as you're feeling it". Like "Persephone is a mary sue" yeah well so was Edith but y'all read tf out of that with no qualms. "The age gap" Pls be so ffr i can't even count how many webtoons have a staggering age gap thats completely glossed over that no one cares about. I'm not saying these things are okay in Lore Olympus or anywhere else, what I'm saying is I want y'all to have these standards for Everything and not just when the thing that you hate is being hyped. Also, specifically with Lore Olympus, most of y'all dont even read greek mythology or care about what is and isn't accurate, yall are just enamored with Apollo(the God not the character)(and thats natural but its also silly and an uncouth place to voice opinions from ime) and taking a very Christian-like anti blasphemy stance. Gods can be dicks, if we're allowed to call Zeus a whore all the time that author is allowed to call Apollo a dick and so is everyone else, well read or not. And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me when the author said this story was supposed to be an accurate retelling or even a feminist retelling(i see a lot of ppl critiquing it for misogyny like it's not supposed to take place in Olympus, and again y'all love them suffering damsel wife stories so baaad ydnc about misogyny bffr). Shorty said at some point it was a modern retelling, iirc, but I think y'all read that word "modern" as "progressive"...

#lore olympus #random #webtoons #im waiting for things to update rn so i thought I'd read up on the discourse and im so disappointed this is all it boils down to #anyways is anybody reading everything is fine if so do u think sam or maggie is right??

[flushed-for-the-trolls]

Boyfriends Webtoons Discourse

The more I read this ‘controversial’ webtoons, the more I’m convinced that the people that are so offended by it have NEVER even read a single chapter in full.

I understand not liking it, that’s fine, the issues people have with the creator are personal and if you can’t forgive X thing that he did, then that’s with you and I won’t bother arguing, since it has the potential to be personal/hit close to home for some.

But, like, when it comes to the ACTUAL webtoons??? Like, have any of you read the basic introductory chapter?

“It’s not serious!” “It’s cringe!” 

Literally the FIRST BF profile card says “Epic Gamer Skillz” “Tweetch Subs” and “D’ARKNESS LV.” Could it be any more obvious??? Of course it’s not serious, of course it has cringey dialogue, the majority of these chapters have memes in them. The point is that it’s NOT serious, and it NEVER pretended to be in the first place. The damn characters speak like personified Discord Servers. “WTF” “EZ”. In a close follow-up chapter one of the characters literally says “OWO Choco?” Like???

So of course it’s not serious, of course it’s over the top and cheesy, to be over the top and cheesy IS THE POINT. But it seems like no one has actually read the comic, they’ve simply seem a few reactions and out of context clips from the comic and decided they know how everything works... Disregarding the fact that they’ve never read it...

Next is people claiming that the comic “fetishizes gay people”.

First of all. The Author is gay. Second of all, literally who cares? If someone is dumb enough to gather all their opinions of gay people based on a webtoons comic that’s basically a longstanding meme, their opinions never mattered to begin with.

Lastly, I get an icky feeling in my stomach whenever I hear this talking point. I remember feeling it back when I was in the hell that was the MHA fandom.

It was during shipping wars when an eerily similar point was made concerning gay couples. “They’re fetishizing gay people!” “All this shipping is because of the Fujoshis!”

You know who was saying all this? STRAIGHT PEOPLE.

Yes, for whatever reason which is beyond my understanding, when the topic of gay couples is brought up, it’s always Heterosexual people who think they know what’s best for the LGBTQ+ community. They often talk over gay people, and what happens when gay people don’t agree with them? “I bet you’re just a Fujoshi!” They say, unaware that this stranger they’ve never even seen the face of, is, in fact, gay and male. 

So even now, I have to wonder if the people that are declaring this as sexualizing gay people are even gay themselves, if they’re not, do they realize that THE CREATOR is gay himself? Not only that, but as a personal account, I can recall many open and proud LGBTQ+ people (primarily gay) that act like stereotypes. There’s NOTHING wrong with how these characters act, nor those very real people. It’s an insult to these people’s real expressions.

Tell me, would you go up to a gay person and tell them that their form of personal expressions are “wrong”? Who on earth would any of us be to talk down to others like that?

That is also to say that LGBTQ+ people are under NO obligation to act “normal”. We should not be expected to suppress our real forms of expression for the sake of “not letting everyone else down”. If we all had to act normal, if no other depictions of being different were allowed, life would be worthless and meaningless.

This partially off topic tangent is to Segway into the talking point (or implied talking point) that this webtoons is publicizing unflattering stereotypes and is therefore bad.

Firstly. If you think this story is some sort of blow to LGBTQ+ Pride, the problem is with you. There’s nothing wrong with how you express yourself so long as it hurts no one. If you think this makes everyone under the rainbow banner look bad, you should look inward and wonder why you need to gatekeep how others express themselves (and to be clear, yes, I know I am referencing fictional characters with no will or mind of their own, but I believe the general point still stand firm when transferred over to real life).

Two, as I covered, these aren’t mythical stereotypes, there are actual people who live like this, and they’re valid and entitled to living how they see fit.

But you know what? I hear you, in spite of the numerous arguments I’ve made, You still have your objections, but here’s where my secret Uno Reverse Card kicks in.

My final argument.

It’s Refrainbow’s webcomic.

It’s as simple as that. Any content creator is not beholden to their audience and their whims. You can not like the comic, that’s fine, but you’re NOT entitled to changes made at your say-so. People frame their points like they deserve changes made so it can personally appeal to them, but that’s just not the case. If you don’t like the webtoons comic, rewrite it. Make it into something you like, but posting about how all the BFs are going to hell and how you want to run them over with a truck isn’t helping anyone or anything, you’re just being incredibly childish and whiny.

Once again: This is a FREE Webcomic made by a small set of people (I think just two? According to the Webtoons chapter outros at least). This webtoons is not going to revolutionize gay relationships, nor is it reasonable to expect it to. It’s a personal passion project, and it has every right to stay that way and not branch out like so many seem to want it to.

A final few disclaimers.

1. If you’re a straight cis person, just don’t argue. I’m gay, and I’m not about to have a straight person try to talk down to me and tell me I’m wrong, or worse, claim I’m a Fujoshi/Yaoi Loving Fangirl, there’s a reason I stepped away from the MHA fandom ya know.

2. I’m not a dedicated fan of this fic (although I do admit to having a bias, as I enjoy it and find humor in it) or of the author. I personally don’t care about the past controversies, and as I’m not affected by any of them, It’s not my place, duty/obligaton to forgive them on behalf of the people they harmed, that’s not the goal of this conversation. I simply am tired of seeing all this hate, both from arrogant straight people, and this senseless infighting from a section of the LGBTQ+ Community. To me it all seems like trumped up claims that don’t align with the reality of the situation.

Finally: If you like this webtoons, you’re valid. If you don’t like this webtoons, you’re valid, if you harass fans or the creator, you’re invalid, and if you talk over minorities while not being a member of said minority, your opinions, in that situation, are invalid.

#boyfriends webcomic #boyfriends webtoon #Webtoon #Boyfriends discourse #Rant #Boyfriends #boyfriends comic #lgbtq representation #lgbtq #lgbtq discourse #rambles #I think I got all the tags out of the way #So yes #I laid down today and chose violence #Just... #Y'all it's just a funky fluffy comic #Settle down #The amount of hate this gets is insane #Like some of you treat this webcomic like it murdered every one of your relatives and made you watch #Also this was just supposed to be about the first point and then... #Well... #Here we be lmao #Are the tags ridiculous enough yet?

[porcelaintoybox23]

Well, time to bitch about Nevermore. (Spoilers for chapter 53)

The black characters aren’t great. Duke is heavily implied to be self-centered and shifty. Berenice is also shifty+shallow and her specter implies gluttony. Like, when your main characters are white (women) and you have 3 poc supporting characters, you need to be tactful in your choices.

Having both your black characters portrayed as shifty isn’t great. Of all the specters, Berenice’s is uniquely monstrous. Eulalie looks like the painted lady from Avatar. Pluto is a cute cat. Annabel Lee is a ghostly bride. Morella is an avenging angel. Berenice looks like this:

Don’t get me wrong, she looks cool but markedly more fucking creepy. This is her description:

She’s “malevolent.” I just…why? Why Berenice, specifically? Look at the other specters.

Montressor is kinda creepy…but still looks anthropomorphic and human-ish. Will is unique. Eulalie is pretty and looks mostly humanoid. Kit and Trace have 3 poc characters. The darker skinned one is malevolent and visibly monstrous. Eulalie gets to be cute and pretty with a benevolent specter type.

Can darker poc be allowed to act like Eulalie and Morella? Must we be shifty, shown as less trustworthy, in everything? It’s either this or we’re functionally mascots to white main characters. Duke and Berenice will get better development, I hope, but it’s not off to a great start. I know people don’t really care, and I’ll probably get mocked, but I really like Nevermore and this is disappointing. It’s tiring to see this happen constantly. It’s not even intentional so people get defensive or don’t see the issue. It’s so ingrained that this happens all the time.

It’s so defeating. I’m honestly getting to the point where I don’t even want to see black people in media because we are never done justice.

#Nevermore #nevermore webtoon #nevermore lenore #annabel lee nevermore #duke nevermore #berenice nevermore #eulalie nevermore #nevermore montressor #nevermore will #kit and trace #fandom racism #fandom problems #fandom discourse