Someone needs to say it: The "Heaven is actually bad" plot line that Hazbin is based around is useless when you spend more then 2 minutes thinking about Vivzie's Hell and her characters.
Besides it being much too early for this idea, the revelation that Heaven or at least the beings running it aren't good people has little to no impact when the people who are being harmed by this are all horrible people. Stay with me here. None of these people are people who were unfairly brought into hell and we are never ever introduced to someone who was either. Why should we care that Heaven is "evil" and blocking redemption when all the sinners in hell we see are the worst of the worst who would have never gotten in even if it was fair.
For the "Heaven is bad" plot line to actually work, you need people who were just one sin away from Heaven, who would've gotten into Heaven if circumstance hadn't forced them down a path that stole it from them. You need characters who aren't comedic villains but land in the middle of morally grey. Those who deserved to be in Heaven but because Heaven refused to consider their circumstances, they were tossed to burn with people much worse than them. Those are the people who should be your main cast cause those are the people who would actually be impacted by Heaven being bad/ Heaven lying.
Angel dust, for all his trauma, was still part of the mafia and likely had killed people before (showing to almost take joy in it). Husk became an overlord and gambled souls, so he had to have had blood on his hands before hell. Alastor is a serial killer, and the list goes on and on. Sure, these characters are (somewhat) interesting, but they don't make for good characters to have when the key plot line is that Heaven is a scam. Even if that fact is true, none of them were ever going to get there in the first place and this is something we also se in every single background sinner shown in Hell too. They were never close to getting there, so why would they or we care that Heaven is bad when all sinners are shown to be horrific people who are at best in the dark grey area of morality.
If you look at it from the "angel's are unfairly killing sinners" route, it still doesn't work. If the angels are killing them, what makes it different then the sinner on sinner violence that hell is full off? Why is them dying by angels this bad thing when they are just as likely if not 10x times more likely to get knifed in the back by other sinners in hell the other 364 days, especially when everyone here apparently is just as horrible as the next person. You cannot condemn the angels for killing demons and then make a joke of out sinners killing each other and never show sinners who doesn't want to kill people. Life either matters or it doesn't and when the main cast doesn't even show a care for life (outside of Charlie's who's entire flaw is her naivety), why should the audience.
On top of that, Vivzie's whole overpopulation aspect and the Heaven plot line would connect better if she actually had people like those I mentioned above, people who stole to survive but got tossed out cause stealing is technically wrong, people who killed another to protect someone else but were still sent to hell because even though they saved that person's life that person wasn't supposed to be saved, people who passively engaged in sins but never really did anything harmful under them. This would add into how Hell is so overpopulated and highlight why its so important that Heaven is evil/ why Charlie's plan isn't just a naive pathetic fever dream.
In the end, Vivzie should have never made Heaven the central plot of this show nor tried to assign this blatant good vs evil to that conflict. Neither her characters nor her writing choices are able to respond to this conflict in a way that will end or even tell the story in a satisfactory manner.
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Master List
King of the Blob Ghosts - Mostly flavor text where Danny is the only king of the Blob ghosts. Au not tied in with Ghost King or Ghost Prince hc unless specified.
Goo Dragon - An au where Danny is a goo dragon made entirely of ectoplasm!
Blind King - Danny is blinded by the portal incident, gets adopted by blob ghosts, and then falls into DC and ices over an entire section of a city.
Infinity Prince and the Dark Escapee - Where Danny gets prince training and then has to hunt down Dark Danny because he escaped.(Small thanks to @starlightcat04 and @lauwftzee3542 for ze name)
Cat Familia - Where Danny gets turned into a cat by pissing off a wizard, and accidentally adopts various cats in Gotham!
Tempest - Danny owns a ship called Tempest that he created that he uses to sail through time. Then he accidentally jumps timestreams.
Moth - Where Danny is de-aged and is a moth boy.
Moth - But with Killer Moth.
Eastern Dragon - Danny is the ghost prince and can turn into an eastern dragon.
Cuddly Apocalypse - Teddy Bear Danny au meets one Dark Danny.
Interdimensional Mini Occult Detective - De-aged Tucker gets thrown to another dimension after getting caught lacking by the magical government branch he was looking into.
Herald of Seasons - Danny obtains the ability to guide the seasons when he was split off from .Phantom while still having Vortex's powers
Vortex's lil guy - Soulless Danny gets taken by Vortex and is his little guy.
??? - Phantom causes a ruckus in DC after getting into it and him and Danny fight or something.
Sold to the devil? Nah, sold to the bear - Constantine sells his soul to the Ghost Prince, and is then turned into a baby sitter by the Ghost King.
Demon and Wraith - Demon twins au where both of them are dancers.
Sun and Moon - Based on an older au where Danny and Vlad were deities.
Successor in training - Ghost King Danny except he isn't and Pariah is his mentor.
Just Monika - DDLC is installed on Tucker's PDA somehow and he dates Monika.
Subject M-0001 - Monika hacks into Mount Justice.
Subject Omega - Danny's most perfect clone protects the ruins of Amity Park.
Medic - Danny be a doctor in Gotham.
??? - Pariah Dark just disappears and it's left to Danny and Vlad to find him.
Eastern Dragon and Phoenix au - Mostly a cosmetic au, where Danny is an Eastern Dragon and Vlad is a Pheonix.
Ghost King/Ghost Prince and Duke of the Ghost Zone - Mostly just flavor text really, Danny is usually more Ghost Prince than King and Vlad is the Duke.
Phoenix King Vlad - Exactly as it says, Vlad is either one of or the king of phoenixes
Kawmi? - Where Vlad and Danny get transformed into magical jewelry that allows others to use their powers.
Fountain Dragon - Danny drops in the Wayne Manor Fountain.
Will of the Wisp - Where Danny gets turned into a tiny whisp because of one of his parents inventions.
??? - Jack gets thrown to the DC dimension alongside Danny and made a coffin for Danny to sleep in during ze day.
??? - The Ghost King gets summoned to DC and wages war, but the Ghost Prince stops said war and gets a date out of it.
Teddy Bear Danny - Another cosmetic au where Danny get turned into a stuffed teddy bear in his accident, he was holding onto one before it happened. He's also in ranges of 5-10 here.
Ghost King at birth, Farmer at heart - Mostly cosmetic au where Pariah Dark, if he weren't the ghost king, would be a farmer and he has an intense love for horses.
Farmer with quite the ghostly (and kingly) secret - Pariah Dark disguises himself as a human and moves into Smallville, has a hard time interacting with humans and humaning as a whole.
Life hanging by tape and sheer will - Where Tucker gets yeeted to the DC dimension.
Dream pals? Dream pals! - Younger Danny and pre-Batman Bruce meet each other through a dream, unfortunately when Danny experienced his accident that connection was shut down.
Bakery and a masquerading demon? - Vlad owns a bakery, Constantine is a regular who holds suspicions that Vlad may or may not be a demon.
Gift in the arms of tragedy - Danny becomes Vlad's ward after the Nasty Burger explosion, only to then become adopted when he was turned into an eight-year-old not even a week later.
??? - Danny and Vlad get turned into kids by Clockwork and placed in the DC dimension because Clockwork thought it was funny. Danny decides to use Vlad to not get adopted.
The key(s) to Doomsday - Danny gets de-aged by Clockwork when going to visit Pariah in the human world, gets summoned, and meets Raven.
Alicorn parole - Pariah gets released from his eternal rest with the sole condition that he's to be watched over by Clockwork. The Ancient of War then decides to combine two mythical beasts and shaped himself into an alicorn, Clockwork followed and then they met Billy Batson.
Ferret Danny - Danny is a ferret. That's it.
Witch - Sam is a witch.
Dead eyed Doctor - Danny, the son of Talia Al Ghul and Jack Fenton, trained under Vlad Masters and became a doctor.
Shadow Twin? Shadow Twin. - Danny dies and reincarnates as the son of Talia Al Ghul, the younger brother and twin of Damian Wayne and son of Batman. Only to then be killed immediately after because he was born with a birth defect, thus becoming a shadow creature that follows Damian around.
Match and Danny - Danny reincarnates into the body of a clone of Superman and Wonder Woman, steals Match and then becomes Metropolis cryptids.
Also check out this fic it's great!!!!!
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you know what since I was talking about the rain world ending and i rambled a little about the karma system and how its all fake.
Big spoilers ahead and whatever I will be talking thoroughly abt the game lore (excluding downpour i don't consider it canon).
Karma in rain world isn't real and we've all been tricked to think it matters at all.
Here's a list of things we should consider regarding the information about karma.
We start on the lowest karma, and as slugcat rests it goes up until it caps at 5. Each of these karma levels represent the basic animal urges. Violence, lust, companionship, gluttony, survival.
The ancients are the ones that considered shedding the base natural urges of an animal necessary for ascension.
The ancients are also the ones that proposed the idea of ascension, and declared that the cycle of life, death, and rebirth is so awful that no creature would want to be a part of it.
(light blue pearl, outskirts)
Now, a lot of this game is about religion- and in the case of the ancients it touches upon the idea of the opressiveness of religion and exploitation therein. Anytime I think about how the ancients left behind the iterators to "solve the problem" for the rest of the creatures, it makes me think of how missionaries go to places to try and "save" the people there.
The ancients' religion is a manipulative cult. First, they convince (almost) all of their people that life is awful. Then, they continue with proposing the idea of solving that problem- no longer living. But there's a catch! You have to die correctly. You have to EARN this "blissful" release from the horrible fact of living. Either by rigorous torture (living off of tea and starving yourself) or by paying money.
(Bright red pearl, farm arrays)
Then, they make it a societal norm- an HONOUR to die in the way They Think Is Correct. But you HAVE to do everything they say to shed yourself of those nasty animal urges and be ready for ASCENSION. And they put a price on it.
But we have to remember, not only did they create a religion that convinced them all that living is horrible...
They destroyed the entire ecosystem that used to be there and replaced it with ruins or whatever managed to descend from purposed organisms.
The ancients were able to alter cells of creatures- the ability to do such a thing at all is described here.
(Gold pearl, Chimney Canopy)
So who is to say that they didn't alter the cells of their own people? That they didn't create all purposed organisms with that idea of karma inside of them? The gates respond to the slugcat, it reads something about its karma. Its a machine reading something within its genetic data. The guardians respond to creatures with karma- and in fact are hostile to anything NOT at karma 10.
But the guardians were made by the ancients to protect their temples. To prevent anyone "unworthy" from going down.
The iterators are forbidden from altering their own karma- how is that something you can do if its not an actual, physical trait somewhere within them? Somewhere within their genetic code that the ancients tampered with?
But most notably-
Cheesing your way past the guardians using flashbangs and throwboosts is an intended feature of the game, and you can go down and into the sea and ascend with no issue. If karma truly mattered for ascension, then why can we ascend without the approval of the guardians?
Slugcats are descendants of purposed organisms, they have this "karma" meter wired into their bodies.
So anyway karma isn't real and the ancients forced a mass suicide of their own kind as Im sure whoever benefitted from exploiting their own citizens had been long gone, leaving behind nations of people desperate to leave the world behind as they have been convinced its the only thing to save them from the horrors of living.
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Questions TBB Better Fucking Answer Soon:
Where the FUCK is Tech??? Stop fucking giving us hope that he might be C2-X or whatever the fuck. Fucking show us his dead body or give him back to us!
Where the FUCK is Cody?? Huh??? Where did he go??? Only acceptable answer? He's on his way to Tatooine to be with Obi-Wan. You reveal that and all will be forgiven. I promise. Maybe.
WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED WITH WOLFFE FOR LETTING REX AND THE GANG GET AWAY HUH??? I'M SURE THERE WERE CONSEQUENCES!! WHEN THE FUCK ARE WE GOING TO GET HIM BACK???
What the fuck is up with Omega. Straight up. What. How. and Why? Same with Emerie. How the fuck did they come to be? Are they trans? yes. next question.
Also why does Emerie get a last name and nobody else does, hm? Why is she Emerie Karr, is that like,, did she choose that or like?? Ok dumb question sure but like,, EXPLAIN HOW AND WHY OR JUST CONFIRM SHE'S TRANS OR SOMETHING C'MON NOW.
SHOW US WHAT THE FUCK IS IN THOSE FUCKING TUBES!
I'm sorry, I'm yelling but I've spent most of this season fucking confused and frustrated.
Where the fuck did the zillo beast go? And when is it going to eat Hemlock and Palpatine?
So...Senator Chuchi and Clone Revolution when?
And like...Cid is just...she's just going to be able to get away with what she did? We're just gonna forget about her? I mean sure, but I really thought they'd bring her back or something.
What the fuck happened to Crosshair on Tatniss? Wait, nevermind, don't tell me, I don't want to know, it'll only make me sad-
WAIT SO LIKE,, DID CROSSHAIR EVER ACTUALLY GET HIS FUCKING CHIP REMOVED OR NOT???
Explain again Hunter's enhanced senses and why the fuck he seems to have lost them in this season.
Also answer why Wrecker is the most perfect man ever? Why did they craft the most wonderful man to exist and then make him not real? You trying to kill me or what?
Feel free to add on because there are only the ones on the top of my head.
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i think there's something really beautiful about carpenter distancing herself from the trawler man every chance she gets and still getting showered by miracles while faulker, oh he of strong convictions, gets to bring the miracle of the trawler man to everyone around him but never quite gets to ascend to glory himself. i just love that they're both perfectly poised to stare at each other and each think "your goals are backwards and your methodology is dumb and possibly sacrilegious" and then still end up as something close to friends
also let's talk about how, despite these dynamics, at the end of the day, the trawler man is really just trying to give each of them what they want from him.
MMM YEAH. carpenter being beloved by multiple gods despite being such an ornery bitch who wants NOTHING to do with their sacrificial bullshit..... it really gets me. as does faulkner's ongoing crisis of faith and spiral into Faithless Cult Leader (TM). SO GOOD.
perhaps only tangentially related, but.
i've been thinking a lot about faulkner killing roemont lately. i was surprised that roemont's death ended up Breaking My Fucking Heart -- a real testament to his voice actor!! the whole pathetic old man losing everything he's worked for really.... Got To Me. ough. "don't you recognize me?" OUGH.
but i've been thinking about it in the context of faulkner's crisis of faith, too. because like. faulkner Knows that roemont is faithful. he considers roemont a heretic for trying to legalize the worship of the trawler-man, but it's like....
i feel like. killing roemont was a test of the trawler-man that faulkner devised on purpose. because if roemont dies due to the prayer marks that faulkner scrawled, then there are two possibilities:
1. the trawler-man really IS furious that the high katabasians want to legitimize the faith; the trawler-man really IS on faulkner's side; this schism really IS necessary to keep the faith "pure," and faulkner has never done anything wrong;
OR
2. the trawler-man really IS nothing but a mouth. this isn't a god with a plan or with sentience or with feelings, this is just a living river that chews things up and spits them out, and it doesn't care for its followers at all. and if that's the case, then faulkner is betraying nothing by being a faithless cult leader lying repeatedly to his people.
faulkner is devastatingly clever and constantly being underestimated. but he's also completely alone in the world. and he's Desperate for any sign that the choices he's making are the right ones. and he can't find that sign in anybody close to him, because he keeps destroying the lives of those close to him. so he has to devise his own trials....
hrugh. my boy. my boy my boy my boy.
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