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S4 Wrapped! Transcript

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen the show several times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian. So for today's episode, we will be discussing Season 4 in general. This is gonna be our Season 4 ender, and some Season 5 expectations as well. So for today's episode, we actually have our very first guest in the podcast. [C: Whoo! [claps]] This is Manika from I've Been Meaning to Watch That. Manika, would you like to introduce yourself to everyone?

M: Yes, I would. Hi, everybody. My name is Manika. Like Grey said, I am from the I've Been Meaning to Watch That podcast. It's a podcast that I created and I host every other week. Well, every single week I have a new guest, new topic, and we talk about, you know, all things under the sun. My newest episode is gonna be about Mean Girls, where we talk about the 2004 film, the 2015 musical, and then the newest musical, and we do like, a breakdown of it.

C: Yeah. Aren't there actually lesbians in the new one? I've heard that are actual lesbians in it. [G: Hell yeah.]

M: Yes. Yes. Janice is confirmed queer. We love to see it. And Renee Rapp loves to talk about how Regina George, to her, is gay, and I support it, so, you know, there's that. And I think the week before that, we did an episode about Yellowjackets and The Wilds. So there's a lot for you guys to listen to. Feel free to check us out wherever you get your podcasts

C: I've watched Yellowjackets. I haven't watched The Wilds. But anyway, yeah.

M: It's a good show. It's interesting.

G: Okay. So before we actually start our usual Season 4- season ender format, I want to ask you first, like, what is your background as a Supernatural watcher?

M: So I started watching Supernatural when I was fairly young. To be perfectly honest, I used to catch episodes of Supernatural just randomly on the WB back when it was the WB. And then I started watching like, reruns on TNT. And I didn't really know that much about the show, and it wasn't until my family got Internet, when I was 13 years old, like, Internet and cable, that I was able to like, fully start watching the show. Like, I started watching from beginning to, you know, the current season that was running, and I think it was Season 8. So from there, I would watch every single- I watched the seasons live as they happened on the CW, or I'd watch on cw.com, [C laughs] and suffer through their three-minute commercials, which I feel like are longer than the commercials on TV. But I would, you know, watch the current season, then it ends, I go back to the beginning on Netflix and watch all the way through. And, you know, Netflix only puts a new season of Supernatural, like, a month before the new season airs on the CW. Yeah. And that's- I mean, that's really my experience with Supernatural. And also, I was a Tumblr girl, so I was already deep in it. And then, when a certain somebody, you know, was fridged in Season 10 of Supernatural, that's when I stopped watching it, and then they brought the nephilim in Season 13, and then I was like, "You know what? Let me give it a chance again." And they announced it was ending Season 15, so it's like, "It's time for a rewatch." And so I am kind of a Supernatural expert, but, you know, maybe on an intermediate level. I know a lot of Supernatural, I would say.

C: Yeah, I don't even know who got fridged in Season 10, so. [laughs]

G: You should! It's our favorite-

C: Hey! I'm supposed to only know about this from social media. Don't tell me! [G laughs]

G: But this is like, a thing. It's surprising that you don't know about it. I think if I told you, you'd be like, "Oh, okay." I think you just don't recall the specific season that it happened, but you know it happened for sure. [M laughs] [M: Right.]

So that's very interesting, actually. So like, you watched it the way most people who are just casual watchers watch it also, like, just on the TV, before you got really into it. [M: Yeah. Yeah.] Did you have like, incredibly different perspectives on the characters and everything before you watched it like, fully? When you were just watching it, like, on the telly?

M: When I was watching it just casually, I just felt like, "Oh, these are two brothers, and they're hunting monsters," and I thought of it as like, a supernatural procedural. [G: Yes.] 'Cause I was already acquainted with- I'd already watched like, Charmed, and before that, I've watched, like, Smallville, so Supernatural is just another one of those shows that came on TV, but I didn't really know about it, but it was the only show that really drew my interest, just because it had such a strong fanbase on Tumblr. So watching it casually was like, "Oh, it's a TV show! I watch it the same way I watch Bones. Like, I'm not gonna watch it in order. I'm just gonna watch it when it was on TV." But then, when I started watching it like, seriously, sat down watching it, I was like, "There's a lot of lore behind this," and I feel like that really sucked me in.

G: I'm not sure if actually, I was watching it on Filipino television with the Tagalog dub, like, before I started watching the show actually, or if I caught it sometimes before that also. But the experience of catching a show on television is truly a different experience than like, you know, watching it intentionally. So it is like, fascinating when people are like, "Oh, and I started watching Supernatural, like, just catching it on the television." I want to ask specifically about Season 4. I think the last time we spoke to each other, you mentioned that you love Season 4. Like, it really is your favorite season.

M: I do. I would say Season 4, in my eyes, is like, one of the best seasons in Supernatural. I would say, like, the season that I kind of hold dear to me is Season 3, but that's kind of short, and it's also like- Season 3 of Supernatural is like Season 4 of Community. You know what I mean? It's like, the gas leak season. Like, every single episode, is like, not throwaway, but it's very meta, and it's very goofy. And even though it kind of sets you up for Season 4, it doesn't really like- it goes deep into like, the whole, like, Heaven and Hell thing, but not too deep, and Season 4 is really when, like, everything gets nailed down. Like, you learn the lore, you get introduced to angels, you introduce the Apocalypse, you introduce God, and, like, Michael, and all these things. And Sam and Dean realize that they go from being hunters to being instruments of God, and the thing that they did out of obligation becomes something they do as their destiny, and they have to, you know, come to terms with whether or not they're going to fulfill this destiny, or they have to come to terms with the fact that they don't do it and something worse happens, you know. [G: Yeah.] So that's why I like Season 4. Because it raises the stakes.

G: Yeah. I think I've said this prior, but I do tend to see Seasons 1-3 as the prequel of the show [laughs], and Season 4 is when it really starts. [M: Yeah.] Like, it really begins. And I have a lot of times in Season 4 where I did think, like, "We're in Supernatural now." Like, "This is Supernatural now." Especially, I think, because of the introduction of Cas, because, you know, I'm very, very- I love Cas so much that like, to me, a lot of Supernatural is just Castiel. And so like, now that he's here, it's like, "Oh my god, we're actually watching Supernatural now!" But yeah, you're right. It is a completely different vibe from Season 1, 2, and 3.

C: 'Cause your main takeaway from Supernatural is that it's about free will, and, like, the main characters are Team Free Will by the end, but like, that's only possible because there's a Heaven [G: Yes.] and because Heaven introduces the idea of fate in a way that the demons and Hell just like, does not. So, yeah, no, this is like, when Supernatural becomes Supernatural. Do you think it was like, a bummer for people who liked it before, though?

G: Oh, I'm sure for some people.

C: Like, the show has completely changed what its point is.

G: I mean, there's like, a lot of reviews, right, that we read where it's like, "Oh, the angel/demon blah blah blah is so boring."

C: Yeah, like, "Can't wait 'til this is over and we can get back to Supernatural!" [G laughs] [G: And it's never over.] [laughs] Like, oh, buddy. Yeah.

I mean, I'm curious about your Casgirl/Deangirl/Samgirl alignment, Manika. [G: Yeah.]

M: Casgirl/Deangirl/Samgirl alignment?

C: Like, [overlapping with G] which one's your favorite?

M: I would have to say like, I was a Samgirl for a long time, like, when I was younger. [G: Hell yeah!] [C: Good.] But now I'm like, a strong Casgirl, [C: Also good.] because they just kept playing in my guy's face.

G: So true! But do you or do you not have strong feelings regarding Dean in both of the positive and the negative?

M: I don't really have any strong feelings towards Dean because everybody already likes Dean. [G: Yeah.] So it's like, "Okay, he's cool. He's got it," you know? Like, I kinda put him to the side. It's not like I don't like Dean at all. It's just kind of like, "Mm, I mean, he's okay." Like, he's there. He's the favorite. He's like, the number one draft pick, so to speak, so he doesn't need my love.

C: Yeah. The writers are obsessed with him. [G: This is true.] That's why he's correct about nothing.

M: I feel like they're so obsessed with him, and then- Never mind. Let me not, let me not.

C: [laughing] No, I'm curious.

G: [laughing] No, we are completely with this discussion.

C: We hate Dean. [C and G laughing] We hate Dean so much.

G: No, I love Dean!

M: No, I didn't say I hated Dean! I was just saying that-

C: Okay, I hate Dean, I hate Dean, and I think that being neutral about Dean is a very good, brave decision to make.

G: Like, in in this podcast, I am the Dean lover, but like, just because Crystal just doesn't like him so much, [laughs] and so I've just been thrust upon this position. [laughs] Because Crystal doesn't like him. But yeah, go on.

M: I was just saying like, it's ironic that the writers love Dean so much, [G: Yeah.] and that like, he got so many good stories, and like, interesting plotlines throughout the seasons, just for them to kill him with a nail. [C: Yeah.] Like, what is that? [G: Yeah.] What is that? [C: They were being funny.] I would actually fight the writers. I would actually- No. It's not even funny. Like, I played this character for 15 years, [C and G laugh] I would actually, like- we would start boxing. Like, screw what Eric Kripke says, everybody's getting these hands, okay?

C: Was he even involved by the end? Where was Eric Kripke at the end of Supernatural?

G: I don't think he was particularly involved, but Jensen Ackles apparently called him.

C: Oh yeah! He called him, and he was like, "This is a really difficult thing for me to hear about my character," and [overlapping with G] Eric Kripke was like, "Just go for it. It's fine." [G: Yeah.] Like, could Jensen Ackles have gotten them to rewrite it? Like, what did he think was gonna happen?

M: He could've. He could've, but he didn't care, 'cause he was developing The Boys, so.

G: Yeah, I felt very much like you when the show ended. Like, I think, around 2021. I was very like, upset with the show. And even when we were starting this podcast, which is like, early 2022, I was kind of like, afraid of how we're going to do Season 15, even though it's like, years from now, because I'm like- it's still like, a very sore and bitter topic for me. I think nowadays, I have like, just mellowed out, but only because I'm rewatching Supernatural from the beginning. [M: Yeah, okay.] So, like, my mindset is still here. It's still not in Season 15. Sometimes I would think about it and still be like, "Agh, what were they doing??" [laughs] But yeah, I think maybe that feeling for me will resurface, maybe, or maybe not when we get to the later seasons of the show in the podcast.

C: I'm gonna have to take Deangirl sensitivity training so I don't laugh throughout his death the whole time. [G laughs]

M: Oh my god!

G: Crystal is such a hater. Specifically, I wanted to ask you about your rewatch of Season 4. Did you rewatch it recently? Do you have any new thoughts on the matter? Any surprises that got to you?

M: Yeah, upon my rewatch, I was just like- Oh my gosh, I was kind of taken aback by the nostalgia of it all. And I was taken aback by just how terrible quality it was. [C and G laugh] First of all, watching this on Netflix, and at some point, I was watching it on my TV, I'm like, "Damn, this is actually- like, this feels like 2000 all over again." But I loved rewatching it. I feel like every single time I've rewatched Supernatural, there are little things that I pick up on and little things that I see. I do wanna say, I liked the original Meg that they had, like, played by Nicki Aycox- she's blonde. I liked her. But I'm not gonna lie, like, the brunette Meg does like, hold a special place in my heart, but- There are those little things that I noticed. Ruby, of course, being like, "Oh my gosh! That's Sam's wife!" and I was seeing her, and I was like, this is a weird kinky foreplay of her just being suss, [C laughs] being almost an abuser, and then them dating.

C: Yeah, of the to-be-Padaleckis, yeah. [M: Yeah.]

G: Yeah. Truly experience.

M: Yes, it was- It was weird. It was interesting, but it was definitely weird, and- what else? "Yellow Fever," of course, is my favorite. [G laughs] Made me laugh so hard. And also, "Eye of the Tiger," when he's doing the "Eye of the Tiger" performance on the car, that's my favorite part. I love it so much. I started like, laughing so hard. I actually started laughing a lot during these episodes, [G: Yeah.] and that's the one thing that I feel like new Supernatural missed that old Supernatural did beautifully is that the show was just funny, you know?

G: Really?

M: Yes! It's funny. Like, there is some-

G: You think new Supernatural is less funny?

C: It's my understanding that Supernatural has turned more sitcom-ish as the seasons progressed.

G: I think the future Supernaturals are funny, but, again, I'm at my Season 4 mind right now.

M: They're trying too hard to be funny, though.

G: Oh, yeah, you're right. Like, it's trying to be comedic on purpose instead of [M: Yes.] whatever it is they're doing here. Yeah, I get that. I get that.

M: Season 4, it's like, these are two idiots that are dealing with demons and angels. They are prepared for the Apocalypse. This is what they've been waiting for since the beginning of creation. This is something they've been hoping for. This is something they've been like, longing for, to have a war on Earth. Like, they didn't even care that these two idiots are here. [G: Yeah.] And these two idiots, who have only been born like, a speck of time in comparison to these centuries that these angels and demons have been alive, just have to deal with these two. And they're just trying to like, you know, get this started. You know what I mean? [G: Yeah. Yeah.] So it's fun to watch. It's also fun to see, like, all the writers who have been on the show for so long flex these muscles, and it's crazy 'cause like, a lot of the episodes are really good. And I was just like, "How is it that y'all wrote Season 4 and put together, like, this work of art, like, this storyline, and you gave us like, Season 7. Like, how did that happen?" [G: Yeah.] Where did we lose the plot?

G: I think the thing is, as you said, like, there are episodes in this season that are like, "Wow! That's like, really good." But there are also times where it's like, "Oh, I understand how this show turned into whatever it becomes in the future," because, like, it's the same writers, and I think both the stuff that they're good at talking about and also their pitfalls, like, both individual writers and the show, I think you can see it in Season 4. Yeah. I think honestly, the reason why Season 4 feels so good is because the tail end is just excellent. I really do think that. Like, I think the first few episodes, honestly, were just so-so.

C: I was not impressed. I mean, "Laz Rising" was good [G: Yes.] and 4.03 was good. 4.02, eh. [G: I love 4.02.] And the rest of them were- Okay, "Metamorphosis" had its thing. I think it was like, the middle of Season 4, where it was just regular case episodes, [G: Yeah. And it was a bit of a plot.], none of them were particularly impressive. But I think that the beginning and the end are both very good.

G: Yeah. Yeah. And that's why it's easier to remember it fondly. "Yellow Fever" is an interesting pick, because I watched that episode, like, me and Crystal, we did- like, it was entertaining. Like, it was fun. [C: Yeah. I laughed.] But yeah, you think about the implication of what they did to that ghost, and it's like, "What is this?" The thing about Supernatural is you will have a fun episode that is beloved by the fandom, beloved by, you know, both viewers were really into it, and casual viewers are like- And then you watch it, and it is fun. it is fun. It's just that there will always be something there that you're like, "What is that? [laughs] What were they doing?" And for "Yellow Fever" for me, it was like, the way they resolved the actual ghost situation.

C: Yeah, they were like, "This man was murdered so horribly because of, like, his like, ableist or whatever community, and the way to get rid of him as a ghost is to like, kill him again in the exact same horrible way." [G: Yeah.]

M: I remember I was watching Season 4, and there are a lot of episodes that I realize serve as kind of- I don't know how else to describe it, but like, branches. Because a lot of times, if your show feels like they're about to get canceled, [G: Yeah.] or they feel like they might not be renewed, they'll introduce new things in the season, and they'll stay on like, the plotline. So like, this Season 4 stays with like, the Apocalypse, keeping Lucifer from like, breaking the levee, and, like, you know, getting out. But it also introduces a lot of other things, you know. First of all, it introduces Carver Edlund [G: Yeah.] who is writing the Supernatural books. Yeah. And then there's Adam, you know, they're introducing their half brother [C: Yeah.] that they didn't know about. You know, there are a lot of things that are introduced here. Like, I think also Ghostfacers.

C: They were in Season 3?

G: [overlapping with C] They were brought back in "It's a Terrible Life," but that's more of like, a "They planted that seed before, and this is like, it growing now" is with Ghostfacers. But you're right, like, they do plant seeds in this season.

M: 'Cause they're just like, "You know, the Apocalypse storyline is great, but, you know, guys, if you want to continue the show, we have other things so we can jump back to, you know, if you wanna keep us going." [C: That's true.]

G: Yeah, I mean, I do frequently wonder when they decided that Season 5 was not going to be the end. Was it here? Like, when they were doing Season 4, were they already like, "And now we're going to have a Season 6 and 7." Or was that more of a "after they finish Season 5, they got reviewed again." I wasn't, you know, I wasn't into Supernatural at the time, so I have no gauge whatsoever on what the show climate was at the time. But it is interesting to think about 'cause me and Crystal were also discussing the other episode, like, "What is Supernatural about? Like, what are they trying to say?" And because if you just look at Supernatural at the original, quote unquote, "original run" of 1 to 5, it's saying a completely different thing than what it ends up saying in the full show at the 15 seasons. So yeah, like, Supernatural, when did- you know, what were they doing? And how did they deal with the continuance off the show? It's interesting.

G: So, yeah. Crystal, I mean, you have talked a little bit, but what's your Season 4 general feelings now that we have gone through the entire thing?

C: Um, I don't know. There's just not that many feelings that exist. Like, I liked "When the Levee Breaks" a lot. But, like, you know, in our 4.22 recording, I said, I didn't feel particularly impressed 'cause I already knew everything. [G: Yeah.] I feel like this is the season where, like, I probably had, like, [both] the most fandom knowledge on, like, play-by-play what all the major plot points are, so like, nothing was really surprising to me, whereas, like, in Season 7, I have no clue how they're gonna defeat Dick Roman, or whatever the fuck. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. I think it did affect how you are. Because, like, I feel like in Season 1, 2, and 3, whenever big, especially emotional, stuff happens, you do react to it in a "I did not expect that to happen here" way. In Season 4, I think especially with Sam's plot in Season 4, I think you knew more than me what was happening! Like, what was gonna happen. [C: Right. This is true.] So yeah, it is a different vibe for you this season. Do you really think it's like, you know, not particularly more than the sum of its parts, what's happening this season?

C: Okay, I think the aesthetic of it is nice. Like, I like the lighting. I think all the things that they did with the angels is very cool. [G: Yeah.] I liked, you know, Uriel and Zachariah, and obviously Cas, and also Anna. So like, good concepts were introduced, and they looked good while they were doing it. But I don't know if I really felt like, a strong emotional connection to the characters or the plotline. Especially because I think.- Season 1, it's like, "We're like, in our twenties, and we're looking for our dad, and we're scared." It's like, okay, like, I know what that is. [G: That's relatable, yeah.] And, you know, later, it's like, Sam has his special- the psychic children arc, which, I mean, I think is like, personal enough to him that I could also feel that. And then, it's, you know, "Dean is gonna go to Hell and die because of the deal he made, and he doesn't wanna die." Like, okay, I get that too. Now, it's like, there's like, the literal Apocalypse, [G: Yeah.] but like, we're just stuck with these two guys who are kind of both annoying. [C and G laugh] Like, why don't I want the world to end? Like-

G: I think this is like, what Manika was saying. Like, for some people it would be incredibly appealing that the stakes are higher, blah blah blah. You think you fall on the other side of that equation? Like, you're like, "I want it to be more personal."

C: Right. I think, first off, we start with Dean having supposedly been in Hell for 40 years, [G: Yeah.] but still knowing how to make burgers and shit, you know what I mean? So like, we start off with like, this giant thing happened that's like, beyond imagining for a lot of people, but like, we aren't able to fully encapsulate what that does to someone at all. Like, Dean's basically the same, except occasionally has like, a flashback. So it's like, you've already set up that there's like, this big stake that you weren't able to follow through with properly. And now with the Apocalypse, yeah, it's like, I don't know. Like, they just keep saying that the world's gonna end. They keep saying the word "apocalypse." But what does that actually mean to them. Like, when they're on their regular hunts in the middle of the season, and they're talking to like, regular people who don't know about hunting, I don't think it's on their minds that, like, "These are the people that are gonna be gone when the world ends," because they also like, don't really bother making any of the people they save [G: Yeah.] particularly like, likable or 3D. So, I don't know. I think it was harder for me to care because the problem of the season felt so abstract.

M: I do want to say, just to like, jump on what Crystal saying, it's always interesting when shows that have, like, otherworldly elements, their protagonists essentially have to deal with something very traumatic and terrible, [C: Yeah.] and they don't go to therapy. Like, they don't do anything to like, resolve what's going on in their minds, because having to like, take the time to like, work out your issues and do like, any self-work, or like, trying to work through your trauma is kind of- it's inhibiting to the plot, really. [G: Yeah.] Like, it takes away the time you could spend the doing the mystery. If you really wanted to get better, you would like, absolutely stop hunting, and, like, you know, take some time away, but that'd also take him away from his family. So there's this sense of purpose, [G: Yeah.] there's this sense of "I have to do this. Like, I have no other choice," you know. You ask, like, "What's the purpose of the Apocalypse? Like, what is it? It feels so abstract." And really, like, I feel like Sam and Dean have been dealing with like, quote-unquote "apocalypses" for, like, most of their life, and it's like, find their dad, find the person that killed their mom. And now they're introducing angels and demons. Like, this is above my paygrade. And it's just that, like, they have no other choice but to take part in this because it's completely out of their hands, [C: Right.] and it's something that's like, thrust upon them. So it's like, you know, the never-ending self-impending doom of their quote-unquote "profession," you know.

C: Right. Also, like, Dean, gets out of Hell, and like, the day of, like, Castiel, is like, "Hey, it's me. Literal God needs you to keep hunting." [G: Yeah.] Like, I guess we don't know what would have happened if he didn't meet Cas, like, right away. I suppose Sam was still hunting Lilith 'cause she was still around. She still had her demon war that she was trying to do. So like, I don't think that Dean would have taken a break, but yeah, I think it's the fact that they chose this job, they keep getting thrust into these situations [G: Yeah.], they keep being in survival mode so they can't go to therapy or take a break or whatever. And because they won't fucking tell anybody because, like, hunting is such an insular community, and like, no one wants to tell anybody [G: Anyone else, yeah.]- like, the civilians about like, ghosts or shit. It's like, they are stuck on like, "It has to be me who does this." Like, I don't know, like, most governmental institutions or whatever like, suck ass, but like, at least, it means that like, there'd be like, [laughs] more than ten people in the US working on the Apocalypse.

G: Yeah, it also does- I think a part of it is just that this is like, a episodic TV show. Like, I feel like, you know, Supernatural, I mean, much like anything, really is a product of like, its time and its format. I feel like if maybe Supernatural was a more prestige TV show or whatever, they would feel more allowance in terms of developing that character in that way, or like, dealing with that trauma that the character experiences in that way. But because, like, you do have to keep the same vibe in every episode, pretty much, it's like, that's really what cements Dean here. Also, oh my god, I completely forgot that the first episode of Season 4 literally ends with, "We have work for you." [C: Yeah.] And that's like, what the rest of the season is about, pretty much, for Dean. It's like, "The angels have work for you." Oh! I forgot that! I mean, Season 4-

C: Cas said that sentence and everything!

G: [laughs] Yeah. No, but like, Season 4 ends with Dean in that room because the angels have work for him, and like, yeah. It is just they are very much just pawns being pushed around. Although I would say that is a big part of why Season 5 works. Like, Season 4 and Season 5 are a pair, I feel. Like, you can't really extricate them from one another the way you can Season 1, 2, and 3 from each other.

C: We talk about how they're going to be vessels for Michael and Lucifer like, every episode during Season 4, even though like, they don't know that.

G: It's not mentioned yet, yeah. And also, like, you know, like, the whole point of Sam and Dean being like, they're just small, small parts in this huge, huge machine. And then, you know, by the end of Season 5, it's like, no, these are the parts. These small parts are like, what makes the thing, and so Sam and Dean can make a difference. Just like those little toy soldiers in the car! [laughs] Whatever. I really like that episode, unfortunately, so it does make me emotional.

C: Is it unfortunate? I thought a lot of people liked "Swan Song."

G: Is it fortunate? Oh, okay, I like that episode, fortunately.

C: I think it's a neutral condition to have. [laughs]

G: Okay, fine.

G: Well, let's do character arcs. So what do you guys think of like, the character arcs this season?

C: Well, I just first have to like, figure out what the character arcs are. Who are we starting with?

G: Okay. Where do we start with Sam? Well, hunting with Ruby.

C: Yeah, Sam starts hunting Lilith [M: Yeah.] with Ruby as a revenge thing because she 'caused Dean's death, and also because she's trying to like, have the demon war on earth that they were supposedly fighting in Season 3 but that I forget about constantly.

G: Yeah, I mean, Season 3 ends with Sam being like, "Okay, Ruby, what is it now? Like, you said I can do something. What is it, like, in the last minute?" And Ruby was like, "It's too late. Dean is still going to Hell." So I think that does inform a lot of what Sam is doing. Like, he can't give himself the ability to- or the opportunity to "think it through," quote-unquote, because, like, I mean, "he thought that one through, and now Dean is in Hell"-kind of situation.

C: Yeah. Or it was like, he basically already committed to like, doing whatever it is that Ruby said, would give him powers in the last minutes before Dean's death, [G: Yeah.] and it was too late. But like, it's not too late to get revenge on Lilith. [G sighs] So okay, hand over that demon blood sippy cup.

G: Right. Where does he end the season?

M: [laughs] Not sippy cup.

G: [laughs] Sippy cup. Exactly. Where does he end this season?

C: Well, okay. So-

G: I mean, he ends it miserable. But he also ends Season 4 miserable- or, Season 5 miserable.

C: Have we really discussed what it means that Dean comes back, like, to him?

G: To Sam? [C: Yeah, to Sam.] I don't know. What is there to discuss? What are your thoughts on it?

C: Obviously, [laughs] it was an unexpected thing. [G laughs] [M: Yeah, very unexpected.] He'd already committed himself to being like, this like, revenge-driven just like, completely lost in the killing Lilith sauce because of Dean's death thing. So like, this sort of throws a wrench into like, the narrative of his life that he's decided, right? [M: Yeah, that's true.] But like, he does continue drinking demon blood. He does continue pursuing Lilith. But, you know, as Dean says in 4.21-

G: [laughs] Now the main issue is that Dean is also here.

C: - is like, "Hey, like, I'm back. [laughs] Like, what is this revenge thing for now?" [G: Yeah.] I think we're supposed to think that at this point, like, he just like, is addicted to demon blood to the point where, like, the revenge is not the primary reason, like, already in 4.01? Or at what point do we think like, he made that switch?

G: I don't know. I mean, he does stop in "Metamorphosis," right? Like, that's a big deal.

C: That's true. He does stop in "Metamorphosis." Does he start up again until "Criss Angel"?

G: Comes back in "Criss Angel," yeah.

C: Okay, yeah. So he wasn't that set on thedemon blood thing until after "Criss Angel," so like, he had an 8-episode interim. So. [G: Yeah.] And then, we think his whole like, arrogance, like, "I can do this better than Dean can" thing starts after 4 12?

M: It's interesting, because I think after Dean leaves, he's gotta like, try to become his own man, almost. [G: Yeah.] So it's a little weird 'cause, like, the Sammy that we know from previous seasons would have tried to find a way to get his brother out of Hell, or try to go to Hell himself and then break him out from there. He would have been mourning or sad, and instead he decides to become-

C: He does say that he tried those things.

M: He says that.

C: Like, we see him try to make a demon deal. Well, we see footage of him trying to make a demon deal in the flashbacks in 4.09. [G and M: Yeah.] He tells Dean also that he literally tried to reopen like, the gate to Hell that was opened [G laughing] at the end of Season 2. I guess we don't know if he actually did that, but like, [laughs] pretty whacked-up thing to make up if you didn't actually do it. [laughs] Like, that's not something I would be proud of telling someone I did.

G: I mean, I think, like, fundamentally, what happened to Sam was like, Dean leaving did change him. [M: Yeah.] Like, we we enter Season 4. Sam is different, even more different than Dean, I would say!

C: [laughs] He installed an iPod jack in the Impala and everything. [G laughs]

G: Yeah! Like, he is even more different than Dean, I think.

C: [laughs] And Dean was literally torturing people for 10 years and tortured for 30 years.

G: Exactly. But like, you know how Sam kept on insisting throughout the tail end of the season that, like, "Dean is different, and like, [C: Yeah, he came back wrong.] he can't do it because he's weak and something changed him in Hell." But really it's like, Sam changed. Sam's different.

C: Sam's different. Dean is like, the same.

G: Dean is the same. It's just that Sam has changed so much that in comparison to Dean that he thinks one of them changed and it's Dean, when it's him, really. Aw. I mean, as I said, I think Season 4 and 5 are paired together, so like, this specific arc of Sam is not yet done. I think it ends in Season 5, so.

C: That's when he decides that he can like, defeat Lucifer in his brain. [laughs]

G: Yeah. So I feel like for Sam, it is a continuing arc. [C: Right.] We need to talk about Dean. [laughs] Why did I say it like that? Well, we do need to talk about Dean.

C: Like, there's nothing else we have to say about Sam? Sam Winchester?

G: Okay, what else do you want to say, Crystal?

C: Like, this is the second season of his relationship with Ruby. Like, there's got to be something there. I don't know. Is there?

G: 'Cause between the two of us, you are the Sam and Ruby person.

C: That's true. I feel like Samruby's larger in my head than it is in the show. Like, I feel like the show itself doesn't really-

G: Reckon with it much.

C: - do much- Yeah, like, they don't like, really like, give it like, the depth or the seriousness of like, an abusive relationship depiction. But they also like, don't really- they just don't- There's not really a lot of feelings in the show between them.

G: Yeah. There's- Ruby is here for more plot.

C: They're both a means to each other's end, yeah.

G: Yeah. I mean, I think Season 3 Ruby has more like, emotional whatever whatever than Season 4, which is a very surprising thing to say. [C: Yeah.] But also, I mean, I just like Season 3 Ruby a lot more. So that's why, probably.

C: [laughs] She has a better actor.

G: Yeah. I mean-

C: Manika, do you have feelings about if Genevieve Padalecki is a good actor? [G: As Ruby. As Ruby specifically.] [M laughs] 'Cause I feel like a lot of people thought that she was like, quite wooden, and I feel like Grey and I felt that way, too. But also like, she is a beloved character, like, in her brunette Ruby iteration. So I'm curious about if there's like, other opinions on her acting. [G: What are your thoughts?]

M: Yeah, I feel like she is very good. To be perfectly honest, I liked her in Season 4, and she really brought like, something interesting to the show. She reminds me a lot of like, Bela, except Bela was kind of sassy and snarky, and she was fun, and I like that about her because she gives like, antihero, so you wanna root for her. But Ruby is very clearly like, she's a demon. She's a bad person. And we know that she's bad, and Sam knows that she's bad, but he can't like, get away from her. And it just kind of falls in line that this is an abusive relationship. It's not like- I don't know if the writers intentionally meant to write it because a lot of the things- 'Cause like, if the writers meant to intentionally depict an abusive relationship, I feel like they should have intentionally depicted like, Sam talking about- bringing up more- when people are addicted to stuff in TV shows, they always say, like, "Oh, I could stop at any time." Or they'll say things like, "Oh, it's like, it's okay. I'm better with it. I know how to manage it. I know how to take care of it," which he does. He's like, you know, "The blood, I'm saving people. Like, we don't have to kill the people. Like, we can still save the people inside" and blah blah blah. And it's weird, 'cause, even though he says that he's still, like, you know, kind of destroying his body in order to do it. And it's just like, this, strange give-and-take that's going on. And I feel like in Season 4, we're seeing Sam, who's like, super nice, very helpful, down-to-earth guy who's willing to work with a demon and eventually falls in love with a demon, and he knows she's a demon. There's no good in her.

C: I mean, even the opinion that Sam is in love with Ruby is not like, [G: Yeah. It's really-] universally held. I don't even know if I believe that. [G: In the context of the show, yeah.] Can you speak more?

M: No. I don't think that he's in love with her. I think that because she makes him feel powerful, and she's like, giving him kind of like, a big head. She's like, "Yeah, you got this." [G: There's a reliance on that, yeah.] He somehow has- There's a reliance on it, and also, like, she's hot [C: True.] [C laughs] and she's there. So if you make a guy feel good enough for a long enough time and you're always around, and you just happen to be hot, he's just gonna wanna get in your pants, you know? [C and G laugh] So he's attracted to her. If he's in love with her, I doubt it.

C: Though, I mean, she was the one to pressure him into sex first. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, but I think she is like, using something.

G: She is absolutely using him, and we all see it but him.

C: I think there is an attraction there already that he did not want to act on. But then, right, she forced the matter in order to make him more dependent on her.

G: It is- I don't know. The Sam and Ruby stuff is incredibly interesting. I think that Ruby, for me, is most beloved in Season 4 in the episodes with Anna. Because I feel like those are the ones that really, like, at least at that point in the story, cement her as like, "She's on our side," or whatever.

C: Right. Like, even an angel says, "Ruby is different from the others. She's nice. She saved me."

G: Yeah. And so, like, I do think that is like, a good turning point in her character. Although after that, I just really don't think they do anything much with her. [C: Yeah.] Like, I think she just becomes like, a plot person. A person to move the plot. [C: Yeah, a real Bobby of a character.] And I don't know. I do feel like a little bit like, "Mm." I think that's also a big part of why by the end of this season, I was like, "Eh." Ruby has a lot of promise, etc. And like, I think, you know, if they brought her back in the show, which they kind of do in Season 14 again, but like, not really. [C: Very briefly.] Yeah, there are interesting avenues to take this character. But, alas! They don't. [C: Yeah.] So it's forever going to be what is.

C: I do feel like they've either forgotten a lot about her Season 3 characterization, or they've decided that you can just think that she was manipulating them, like, the whole whole time. Right, there's this scene at the end of, like, "Malleus Maleficarum," is it? where she tells Dean, "I'm helping you because I remember what it's like to be human and stuff like that." She tells Sam a similar thing, like, in the 4.09 flashbacks. [G: Yeah.] And that is an interesting concept. But I guess at the end, we're just supposed to think she was lying the whole time, [M: The whole time.] and every time she was helping them in Season 3 was to lead Sam. [G: There was a motive.] Which is also like, fine, like, if there's like, depth to that. [G: Yeah.] If we like, understood why she cared so much about raising Lucifer again, or like, [G: Yeah.] her feelings about her role in the matter. Like, she gets a little bit of a monologue in 4.22 about how she's proud of herself for having done this, but like, I don't know. I wanna know why this is important to her. And I also wanna know more about her like, past as a witch and all that shit because they made it such a big reveal in Season 3 [G: Yeah.], and they just sort of drop all those threads with her and have Dean stab her to death!

M: In Season 3, you said, like, in "Malleus Maleficarum," when she said that she remembered what it felt like to be human, it was interesting 'cause she like, warned the Winchesters- She tried to warn them of like, a witch coven, you know, that was being controlled by Astaroth.

C: Yeah, yeah, her former witch teacher person. [G: Boss.]

M: Yeah, yeah. I feel like she was doing that to gain their trust, almost. [G: Yeah.] You know, she's trying to like, get them on her side. And it's most likely that she had always intended to bring back Lucifer, and she probably saw something in Sam that he hadn't seen in himself yet, and she was just like, you know, "What would be more irony than the two brothers that are going around killing like, demons, witches, werewolves to bring Lucifer back to Earth and start the Apocalypse." So I feel like she's been playing the long game.

C: Yeah. [G: Yeah.] She also had some kind of partnership with Azazel, didn't she? Where she said that he passed on the information to her about how Sam had been specially selected to help raise Lucifer?

G: I mean, all of that is so murky. Like, the Azazel-Ruby-Lilith-Lucifer connection is so murky.

C: Yeah, it's just dropped this monologue at the end of Season 4 [G: Yeah.] that is not clear. Like, I don't know. I would love to see some flashbacks of her and, like, Azazel, like, eating fries together and him being like, "Okay, and then you should probably do this [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] and then tell Sam to drink from your veins," and she's like, "Yes, that would be so fun and silly! Alright, writing that down." [laughs]

G: Yeah. I mean- Is this true? Manika, have you heard this? There was this like, thing I heard once, I'm not sure if it's true at all, that like, the reason why Ruby had to be killed at the end of Season 4 is because Jared and Genevieve started dating, and so they didn't want to have Sam and Ruby continue being a thing in the show when the people playing them are dating. Have you heard this? Have you ever heard this?

M: I did see that rumor on Tumblr. And the thing with Supernatural is that they're one of those shows that start airing while the show's filming because the show is so long [G: Right. Yeah, yeah.] it was impossible for them to like, film all the shows, like, the full season, and then air it, so that could be the case. But I think what really happened was that Ruby was meant to be a one-season character the same way, like, Lilith has been. [G: Yeah, for like, a shorter- yeah.] 'Cause like, you could bring in a female character, but yeah, if she's not on the Winchester's side, she's not a good person, then she's gonna die. Even when she is a good person, she may die. [G: Yeah.] So it is possible that, like, Ruby, was always intending for Sam to get stronger and stronger and stronger, and him feeling guilty that he couldn't take down Lilith and his brother still went to jail- he went to Hell. She was like, "Oh, yeah, I got him right where I wanted." [C: Yeah.] And then, you know, and then she was like, "Yeah, I mean, I wanna raise Lucifer." And like, they knew. The writers had to know, like, if Ruby is going to raise Lucifer, then she's going to die this season. [G: Yeah. That is probably also-] So I feel like- Yeah, and I think them dating just kind of happened.

G: Yeah. [laughs] We have been talking about the Padaleckis so much for this episode. But I think honestly, like, that kind of like- outside factors that contributed to the character dying or whatever is more applicable to Anna, really, than Ruby.

C: Oh, absolutely. God, poor Anna. Right, Manika, you've heard that like, Anna was sort of meant to stay on, like, as the Cas character. [G: The Cas of the show, yeah.] But then the audience all liked Cas so much more that they just like, diminished Anna's role and then kill her in Season 5.

M: Oh. Wait, seriously?

C: Yeah. Like, Cas supposed to die in Season 4.

G: Yeah. Then got brought back in Season 5. It is fascinating how they do- I don't know.

C: 'Cause you can feel it because of how, like, right, like, Grey, both of us said that Anna shows up in 4.20 and 4.21, [G: 21, yeah.] and like, she's like- she doesn't contribute anything to either of those episodes. She's just there to like, drop information that, like, they already knew. And I think it's because the actress was like, contracted to be on more episodes. [G: Yeah.] And then like, eventually, when they were like, "Actually, we want Castiel for this kind of a role," then, like, she like, still had to film those episodes [G: Got booted up to heaven.] but they didn't have anything to give her to do or whatever. So yeah, they just flattened her out.

G: That is interesting what you pointed out, Manika, like, Supernatural is a show that is writing while still airing or still filming.

C: Right, which is why things like Cas getting brought back in Season 7 because, like, the audience, was not enjoying that he was gone for so long, [G: Yeah.] that's why something like that could have happened.

G: That format basically gives us Cas back in Season 7, yeah. Well, [laughs] is that all good for Sam?

C: Sure. [laughs]

G: Okay, let's talk about Dean. Let's talk about Dean.

C: Yeah. I am curious about how Sam's guilt over Lucifer is gonna affect him in Season 5. Okay, that's my last thing to say.

G: No, that's for Season 5, yeah. [M: Uh-huh.]

G: What is the Dean situation? I don't know.

C: I don't know. He existed and was annoying. You guys can talk about him.

G: It's because, like, when Dean is endearing, he is endearing, and when he is annoying, he is so annoying! [M: Mm.] And in Season 4, I feel like he is a lot more annoying than he is endearing. [C: Yeah.] This season, especially 'cause we did a break to watch Good Omens for 3 months [laughs], but during that time I was thinking about Dean a lot. I was like, reminiscing on Season 1 Dean, etc. I just had extreme fondness for him. And then we went back to the show, to Supernatural, and it was like, "Aw. This is not like, the Dean that I like." Like, Season 4- I mean, because Sam and Dean, as I said, like, they have to maintain like, a status quo. But also they do, in fact, actually change also. It's just incredibly like, gradual and sometimes not intentional, [laughs] I feel like. Like, it's the external forces that cause that instead of like, them as characters. But like, I feel like Dean is like- Season 1 and 2 Dean, extremely endearing. And then it like, dips down very, very low for a while. [laughs] And then it rises back up until, you know, Season 15. So like, I feel like right now, me and Dean, we're not good. [C: You're on the outs.] We're having our divorce era. Yeah. He's sleeping on the couch, etc. So. I don't know. I mean, Manika, what do you think of Season 4 Dean? Like, Season 4 specifically.

M: I feel like Season 4 Dean is the beginning of like, grouchy Dean, you know? [G: Yes.] You know, like, grumbly Dean. You know, he's just so- I don't know how to say it. Pent up? You know, he doesn't talk about his feelings, doesn't open up, really. Like, he went to Hell. [G: Yeah.] Like, he literally went through suffering, like, the worst kind of suffering possible, and it's because the show won't allow them to talk about. Like, he was about to become a demon. Like, that was his like, biggest fear. And now here he is on Earth, he's back to hunting again, and, like, the season prior, he knew that he was gonna die in a year, so he was almost like, reckless and almost like, suicidal in a way. But he was just kinda like, in his head like, "Oh, I can't die before I'm supposed to. So like, if I do something really stupid on this hunt, it's gonna be fine, 'cause like, I'm not gonna die, you know? Not this time around." And now that Dean's been to Hell, it's kind of like, well, how does he feel? What's going on with him now that he's gone through something that traumatic? Like, how does he view hunting now? Like, has things changed for him? 'Cause I try to think about it like, a soldier coming back from war, you know? So soldiers come back from war, he's like, heartbroken, and, like, you know, kind of like, down and sad, and they either hate their country or they come back, and they're just like, even more of like, a [tough-guy voice] "red-blooded American!" And it seems like Dean is like, the second one, but he still feels like, you know, "Why do I have to go?"

G: He feels more attached to hunting, do you think?

M: Yeah, he feels more attached to hunting, you know? Because it's just what he knows. Like, there's nothing else he can do, really.

G: I think, honestly, what you said, it brought up something interesting in me, which is like, is he afraid to die now? Is there more of a survival instinct because like, he knows what being dead's like?

C: [laughs] Right, he knows where he's going.

G: Yeah, I don't- That is an interesting thought. I think- I don't know, like, you're right, Season 4 is the beginning of this Dean, which is why, like, as I said, a lot of my reminiscing was like, Season 1-3. I mean, to be fair, Sam also is like- this is the beginning of Sam being something else. Like, his attitude towards the later half of the show is very much informed by all of the experiences of this season. So the differences with Dean, we don't see it happen on screen. Like, the thing that changes him. We don't see it happen necessarily on screen, while, you know, the entire season is dedicated to what happens to Sam. So.

M: Yeah, that's true. And it's ironic, too, because Dean literally finds out that he's like, chosen by God, and I feel like this hurts Sam even more because he, out of the brothers, was like, the one openly a believer in God. And he's tried to be a good person, but because, like, he starts drinking demon blood, he's somehow seen as like, defective. And I would have to say that's a little like- I don't wanna say it's harsh, but, like, damn. He was the one who actually like, believes in the big guy upstairs. And like, Dean literally couldn't care less. Like, he does not want to do this, and it's just like, the angels are just like, "We don't care. Like, he asked for you specifically." So like, you gotta get with the program. [C and G: Yeah.]

C: In terms of Dean never talking about his feelings, I think the two moments that I recall are in "Monster Movie," he's talking to Jamie about [G: To that girl, yeah.] about how like, he went through a near-death experience and he's back now.

G: He wants to make it worth it.

C: Yeah, he wants to make it worth it. And he wants to help people through hunting. So I think you're right that he's rededicated to hunting after this. [G: Yeah.] And then in 4.15, he's talking to Tessa. [laughing] Dean can only open up to like, one-off love interest women. Like, wild.

G: Because when he opens up to Sam, I feel like it's a completely different vibe. [C: Yes.] It's like, I don't know, "This is what happened to me." [C: Yeah, and then they both sit with it.] which is like, a different thing than like, "This is how it changed me," which is his conversation with Tessa and Jamie.

C: Yeah, so Tessa is- He says something else about, you know, second chance. And then he says specifically that like, he- it's not that he feels honored, but there's a weight to like-

G: He says he just wish he died in Season 2 already, but like, because he didn't, he just has to keep on going because this is the situation now.

C: Yeah, and he says that the idea that, like, Heaven saw something good in him, despite all the torture he did in Hell, like, matters to him in that he does want to like- He does care about like, the work that's been given to him because [G: Yeah.] he was brought back by Heaven, who, like, some somehow forgave him for the torture in some way. [G: Yeah, which is truly-] But like, that's all before he finds out- Like, I guess, okay, in Season 5, I'm assuming he's gonna be processing the fact that the thing he was telling himself that like, "This is why I'm back, and so that means it's good that I'm back," like, the fact that that's a lie, he'll probably be processing that in Season 5, I assume?

G: Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows?

M: Who knows?

C: [laughs] Yeah, they don't really process in Supernatural.

G: [laughs] Exactly. I think, you know, one of the most fascinating episode sequence choices they made was putting the Tessa episode right before "On the Head of a Pin." Because, you know, Dean in that episode was like, "Oh, I'm here for a reason because God is like, you know- Like, I was saved from the torture and the torturing because God had work for me." [C: Yeah.] And then, like, "On the Head of a Pin" is like, "Oh, actually, the work is torturing someone."

C: [overlapping] [laughing] "We have work, and the work is do more torture!" Yeah.

G: Which must have sucked so hard.

C: It's true, yeah. He viewed being saved as redemption from the torture. So the fact that it's like, "Maybe we saved you 'cause we like that you did torture and we want you to do more torture" [laughs] is not a good feeling.

G: Yeah. Yeah. Do we have anything more to say about Dean? I'm gone. I feel like-

C: Well, there's his relationship with Sam that like, sours immensely this season.

G: I mean, of course. [laughs]

C: Back to Sam, baby! No, but yeah.

G: No, I was gonna say, I was gonna say, "Well, his relationship with Cas, we can talk about in the Cas part!" [laughs] But we literally can. [G: Well, we can.] Relationship between Sam and Dean. What's the situation? I don't know. You know, it's terrible right now, and mostly because of Dean.

C: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, I agree with that one. I know some people would not, but I think it's all Dean's fault, mostly. [G: Yeah.] It's bad right away Like, he fucking punches Sam in "Metamorphosis." [G: Yeah.] Yeah.

G: I think there's also the fear that, you know, Dean was afraid of becoming a demon, and as Manika said, it was like, his biggest fear. Like, Ruby told him, like, "I'm a demon because I was human, and then I tortured in Hell," etc. and Dean was afraid that was gonna happen to him. And now Sam is here, drinking demon blood, foreseeably maybe turning into a demon, so, I don't know.

C: Yeah, I think that's probably part of it. [G: A part of it, yeah.] They just seem to have completely forgotten about that after 4.16. Like, the writers- Like, we have, like, Dean's whole, like, in 4.21, he's like, "I'm gonna continue heroically enacting medical abuse on my brother because I draw the line at him, turning into a monster." And at no point, like- You'd think the fact that, like, he did torture and like, he's ashamed of doing torture and that's like, related to demonness would come up. [G: But it never does.] Like, if you have one line how like, "I fucking wish someone like, went down in Hell and like, chained me up in a room so I couldn't torture people anymore" or some random bullshit like that, I feel that would have brought together his [both] arc a lot better than like, whatever the fuck he was doing in 4.21.

G: Yeah. Okay. Well, can we talk about Cas now? [laughs]

C: Oh, sure, yeah.

G: Yeah. So what are our thoughts on Cas? I mean, this is his beginning, so. [C: He's new.] He's new.

G: He's he's a new character. It is like, I mean, Cas's arc is actually very clearly delineated. Is that a word? Yes. But it's very clear, like, what they're trying to do, when they were doing it. I feel like there's less like, room to waver because he's new. This is like, the first time we're meeting him, and, like, you know, with Dean, it's like, he already was a complex character going into this. Sam, too. And Cas is like, well, he is, you know, he's God's angel, and now he is turning into something else! Wow. What are your thoughts on Destiel? What's your situation?

C: Wait, are we there already? [M laughs]

G: No, no, no, I'm just asking. I'm just asking.

M: I'm gonna be honest, when Cas was first introduced, I was like- I was super excited because upon watching the show from the very beginning, I had to Google, like, "When does Castiel [G: Of course, yeah.]- when is he introduced in the show?" You know, the Google says, like, "Season 4," and I was like, "Okay, bet." But I think, like, the previous episodes, of course, previous seasons did a good job in setting up the show towards the Apocalypse. So when Dean's like, you know, crawling out of the field, in the grass, and he's like, crawling his way out of Hell, it's like, "Oh, snap!" And I'm like, "Ooh, Cas is gonna come in at any minute." He comes in the first season. I'm like, "Hell, yeah." And I love Season 4 Cas because he adheres strictly to angelic doctrine. [G: Yeah.] As in like, he has, like, an unwavering commitment to what Heaven wants, and his interactions with Dean are so stoic. [G: Yes!] Like, it's so funny because Dean is a normal person.

G: Crystal has a term for it! Crystal has a term for it. He's statue-moding. [C: Yeah.] Like, he's acting like a statue in a lot of his stuff with Dean. And like, I do think that is so true, yeah.

M: Yes. I do wanna say I'm glad that Cas has stayed. I feel like with Anna, it would have been cool to see her stay, but the thing is, with like, Anna, she fell into the born sexy yesterday trope, where, because they're angels, they don't understand humans and how humans work, like, life on Earth, so they only know, like, the way Heaven works and what Heaven tells them about Earth, and the fact that, like, Anna slept with Dean-

C: She lived there for 20 years, though. She was born into a human body.

G: Yeah, she was human.

C: Sh had her like, past, her parents, and all that shit. So like, I think she had been living on Earth, experiencing it fully for 20 years.

M: We're talking about the redhead, right?

C: Yeah, yeah. [G: Anna.] [M: Okay.] Because she chose to fall from Heaven and be born human there. She had a childhood. Like, they talk about her at age 2 screaming about how she's scared that her dad will kill her. [G: Get killed by her dad, yeah.] Her God memories coming in, or whatever. But I mean, she was only 20, though, [laughs] like, in her mind at the point that she sleeps with Dean. [G: Yeah.] And I think that is kind of iffy.

G: Yeah. That is also a thing that I felt.

M: Yeah. You guys are right, you're right. I was just gonna say that like, I feel like if Anna stayed on the show, she would have fell into the born sexy yesterday trope, which is basically when, like, an alien or like, you know, a girl loses her memory, or like, they're not from Earth, and so they depend on, like, the first man they've ever met to guide them, and then they somehow see this man as also like, a love interest, so to speak, and- The earliest sample I have of it that I've seen so recently is Bella Baxter in the movie Poor Things, which is the newest movie with [with G] Emma Stone. It kind of falls into that, yeah. So I'm kind of glad that Anna wasn't really included in. I was gonna say, Castiel is like, very... enigmic? [C and G: Enigmatic.] Yeah, as a character. But I feel like if he was a woman, then he would kind of be like Anna. So I think having two characters that are kind of like, not fully there, it's kind of like, that's a little too much. One is enough, you know?

G: I do think a more direct point of what you're trying to make is like, fundamentally, because Anna is a woman, they would feel they need to make her a love interest. [M: Yes.] And that is like, you know, [laughs] Supernatural is a terrible show who handles their female characters incredibly terribly a lot of time. And like, 'cause what they did was they were like, "Okay, we're going to bring Anna in, and she's gonna be a type of character. And also, she's going to be Dean's love interest." And because the love interest didn't really particularly work, like, they didn't have much chemistry, Anna and Dean, they were like, "Okay, let's just throw away the entire character," and that is incredibly irritating to me, because, like, you're the one who dictated that all of your female characters need to be like, a love interest, or like, a mother figure, you know? Like, you're the one who made that category, that like, you know. And it's like, you're right that because Cas, well, is a guy like, there is a feeling of "he's not gonna fall into the usual tropes of whatever whatever because he's not gonna be treated like a love interest." It is just annoying because it is like, a- Like, that's Supernatural's fault, you know? Like, that's not because of Anna as a character. [M: Of course, of course.] That's because the show just deals with it so terribly. Like, me and Crystal, like, whenever Anna shows up, we talk constantly about like, "Oh, where could have they taken this character?" blah blah blah. But the thing is-

C: Do we talk about it constantly? I feel like we haven't talked about it sufficiently.

G: Really? You think so? Well, yeah, like, when we do that, it's like, "Oh, what would happen to Anna?" blah blah blah, "Where could they take this character?" But the thing is, Supernatural would just never do it because they have already set their mind on what Anna is supposed to be, and because that doesn't work, it's like, "Well, she couldn't be anything else," unlike Cas, who's like- I mean, they will try many things with Cas's character through the years. And it's like, "Oh, it doesn't work. Well, let's just bring back the blah blah. Let's just-" you know. And Supernatural, fundamentally, is a show that gives its male characters more benefit of the doubt when something doesn't work, and that is a sort of gripe for me.

C: Also, like, regarding "the love interest thing didn't work out so they threw her away," like, the thing is like, obviously the idea that, like, angels don't experience romantic or sexual attraction is like, untrue, and also, I think, like, kinda like a dumb idea to work with, but like, I feel like there was ground for them to just go like, "Angel!Anna is a new character, [G: Perspective.] and like, therefore doesn't feel the way about Dean that, like, human!Anna did. And thus, like, we don't have to put her in the love interest role anymore, and she can like, have a new role in the story," but they threw her away instead. Like, in 4.20, like, she shows up, and Dean's like, "Hey, you're looking good." And she just goes, "Not appropriate, Dean." [G: "Not the time!"] [laughs] So like, if the love interest thing didn't work out, which it didn't, they had like, a perfectly fine avenue to go like, "Well, it's no longer an option for either of them. Okay, well, now, what do we do with this character?" [G: Yeah.] But they didn't.

G: I mean, like, [laughs] many people have said this, but like, the reason why Supernatural does end up becoming like, gay is because they would only, you know- [laughs] Because it is misogynistic! I don't know. Like, they wouldn't develop any of the female characters, they wouldn't let them stay for long, and so-

C: Yeah, what happened to all the pussy on Supernatural?

G: Exactly. And it's Castiel. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.

C: [laughs] They just had to love interest-ify him at the end because they were out of other options. But he was always- I feel like Destiel was always there. But, okay, I do wish that- He says he's expressing doubts in 4.07 already, and then, like, they just don't do anything with it, for, like, 9 episodes.

G: I feel like they do! [C: What do they do-] Okay, never mind. You're right. 9 episodes. Yes.

C: Yes. 16 minus 7, baby!

G: Yeah. I mean, I was fine with it. [C: Yeah.] I feel like it is essential for Cas's character that it is the last episode of this season that he does his turn, you know? That he gets turned around.

C: Still wish he had a better reason to get turned around in 4.16 than "Seeing Dean do torture makes me sad, 'cause I wanna fuck him," [G laughs] but oh, well.

G: Oh, well. Yeah. I feel like there's not really much to discuss about Cas yet.

C: 'Cause he talks about his feelings out loud to Dean and Anna, so there's nothing really to like, tease out. Like, we know what he thinks.

G: He's pretty clear-cut at this point, yeah. Oh, I'm so excited for Cas next season! They're going to be Team Free Will, the three of them! [C: Mm-hm.]

M: I do think it's like, great that Cas who is like, a new character in the season, did find it within himself to like, question like, "What's going on in Heaven? Why is this happening?" And in the last minute, he decides to like, help Dean to avert the Apocalypse because he's influenced by Dean. And he starts questioning like, his divine orders, and like, and they're trying to like, figure like, "What is free will? Like, what would that be like?" you know, to fight Heaven and help Dean avert the Apocalypse, it's this act of rebellion [G: Yeah.] that is very different from like, the character that we're introduced to as Castiel, and like, bringing in more complexity for his character. And it's like, the foundation of who he is, who he's going to be in the next couple of seasons. So we're just starting to see Casiel kind of like, get out of the shell. He's still, like, you know, very stoic and like, still very much, like, naive to the way of the world. But he's navigating what it means to like, have morality and like, free will, and like, what that looks like for him. And like, Season 4's just the beginning for him. [G: Yeah.]

C: Wish we knew why he didn't want the world to end, though. [G: Because there's people!] [M: Yes!] Like, I know that it's just that world ending equals bad, but like, do we see him care about people, though?

G: Because if there's anything to die for, it's this! [laughs] As Dean said.

M: He has a bond with Dean. It's literally his bond with Dean.

C: Okay, okay. I don't- is that it? [G laughs] Like, "Dean doesn't want the world to end, and so I just won't make the world end"? Because he was already doubting in 4.07!

G: Of course. You know, he's doubting, he's doubting. But here is a person that he relies on to be right about these things, and he's saying that this is the right thing to do. And I do think that means something. Like, if you're on the fence-

C: Why is he relying on Dean to be right about things? Do we see him looking towards Dean as a moral authority?

G: [overlapping] Because he's hot! I don't know. [laughs] Did you hear what I said? I said he listens to Dean because Dean is not.

C: I did hear what you said, but it's not a true statement, [G laughs] so like, I don't see how that's relevant. [laughs] But-

G: Well, I mean, I don't know. I feel like Cas-

C: Okay, what's the textual backing of him viewing Dean as a moral authority?

G: Well, I mean, it's just, you know, him being able to tell Dean that, you know, like, "I don't know what's right or wrong here" [C: Yes.] and then Dean in that moment being like, "ell, I think this is what was right and this is what was wrong." And I think in that moment, he does internalize that. Also, he always like, sets himself parallel to Dean. He's always like, [C: Yeah, "Do you swear to-"] "your dad, my dad." You know, he always does that. And so I think he does see himself, as like, you know, a mirror to Dean.

C: Well, okay. Well, why does he think that? What does he see of himself and Dean? Just the father relationship?

G: Sometimes, you just do! I think maybe the father relationship. [C: Okay, the father relationship.] Also like, just a weird admiration. Like, he went to Hell, battled his way through Hell to save this guy. [C: Yeah, under orders.] So like, there is going to be an aspect of "There is something with this guy that is special, that I did all that to get to him."

C: But, it's because he was under orders, though. So it's like, "Heaven thinks there's something special about this guy." But like, there are ways to go with like, rejecting Heaven that involve like, "Well, if Heaven thinks he's special, and I don't trust Heaven anymore, like, why should I trust him?" Like, there are different directions. You can go with that. Like, why did the direction that Cas chose- why did he choose that one?

G: I think it's just at some point, he had a profound bond with Dean. [C laughs] No, I mean, like, you know, "If it was anything- I would give anything not to have you do this." in 4.16. [C: Mm-hm.] Like, that's sincere. And it's like, at that point, Dean has ceased being an instrument of Heaven and more of like, a person that Cas has a personal connection with. Yeah, like, at the beginning of the season, like, you wouldn't imagine Cas Season 4, Episode 2 saying, "If it was something, I would give anything not to have you do this." to Dean [G: Yeah.] if he asked Dean to torture, then, because they haven't gone through anything yet together on Earth.

C: Yeah, they have been through much together, you and I.

G: Oh my god. [laughs] Yeah, crazy line still. But yeah. I think the beginning is like, "Well, that's a guy I saved, and so it's interesting that Heaven wanted me to do that, and that I went through all that stuff to do that." And then towards the end of the season, it's like, everything else that we went through together.

M: I was just gonna say that I feel like Dean is the only person that Cas has had, like, a true connection with. [G: Yeah.] 'Cause all the ages are very much the same. They're all very stoic. They're all kind of like, to the point. They're all very matter-of-fact, they only do what Heaven tells them to do, and he hasn't been exposed to any kind of vulnerability until he met Dean. So I feel like with Dean, he just really moved him. [C: I think-]

G: I mean, he has a connection with Uriel and Anna. I do think that is something.

M: I mean, I think that's a different connection, but yeah.

G: Because with Uriel, I think Uriel is asking something different of him than what Dean was asking. Anna was asking something similar, but Ana was already painted as like, automatically bad [C: Right, fallen.] by virtue to because she is fallen. And I think Dean straddles that line of like, asking Cas the thing that appeals to Cas the most and, again, like, being like, "good" in Cas's head, because "I went through all that trouble to save you."

C: Yeah, I do think that a component of Cas's connection to Dean that I haven't thought about that much earlier is the fact that, like, this is happening at the same time as like, Cas's other relationships deteriorating. [G: Yeah, you're right. His entire garrison got killed.]

C: He had his garrison, they were his family. But then, like, yeah, first, like, Anna chooses to fall to Earth, and like, [M: Yeah.] she's gone. And he's been like, working with her, and like, she's been his sister for like, thousands and thousands of years, so like, that had to have shaken him up at first, and also probably made him think about Earth and humanity [G: Yeah.] a little differently. Just the fact that she chose to do that at all. And then members of his garrison keep getting killed off, like, weekly because of the Apocalypse. [G: Going to Hell-] And then, like, he's in charge of his garrison and shit now. [G: Yeah.] He's in charge of it now, and then he gets demoted [G: The Uriel thing happens.] and then the Uriel thing happens, where someone he's trusted for thousands of years, but who has differing thoughts on humanity than him, [G: Yeah.] turns out to have been betraying everyone the whole time and being like, the cause of the like, many other deaths in their garrison. Like, 7, was it? Like, that week, or something?

G: Yeah. I mean, his social life was dying also. Also, his corporate life was dying. He did get demoted. So I get it. [all laugh]

C: Yeah, no. This is like, a time where he would overprioritize his connection to Dean in his head because it's the only thing he has during this time of instability for him.

G: Yeah, I mean, we've discussed this one with the line, like, "We've been through much together, you and I." because, like-

C: Yeah, we were like, "He hasn't." But like, maybe to Cas, yeah.

G: To Cas, it does mean like, a lot. Like, this is a lot for him. Well, I think that's all for Cas.

C: Wait, I'm still curious about his feelings about humanity because we get like, bits of it in 4.07, and then we don't later. I want to know more.

G: I think Cas and humanity is a situation that will happen more in 5 and 6, specifically. I think those seasons have a more of a focus on that because Cas just interacts with more humans. [C: Right.] Like, which humans does Cas interact with here. Sam, sometimes, [C: Sam and Dean.] and Dean, mostly. So like, I feel like Cas's actions towards humanity is less-

C: [laughing] Well, he had to imitate Bobby's voice on the phone in 4.15. [G: This is true!] He and Bobby could be making out sloppy in that junkyard every day. [G laughs] We don't know.

G: This is true. Well, yeah.

C: 'Cause currently, he likes humans in the abstract, as he says, to like, Uriel, "It's blasphemous to call humans mud monkeys" or whatever, yeah.

G: 'Cause they're God's creations.

C: Yeah, 'cause they're God's creations. But as his relationship to God like, becomes more and more tenuous, I'm curious about like, the new reasons he'll have for loving humanity.

G: Yeah, at this point, Cas is still like, "Heaven wants to kill all humans or whatever, but God doesn't." Like, that's still his perspective, really. [C: Just like Aziraphale.] Yes, it's true. He goes into Season 5 thinking this, so yeah, that's the situation. [C: Mm, yeah.]

G: Well, let's do fave eps. Manika said something about "Yellow Fever." Is that your fav ep, or is that just an ep that you just like?

M: I do like "Yellow Fever." I like it. I like "Yellow Fever." I don't know if it's my favorite. I mean, you're gonna have to come back to me on that, because I'm not sure if I know my favorite quite yet.

G: Okay, do you have a least favorite? [laughs] I feel like a lot of times that's easier to say.

M: A least favorite?

G: I have one, actually, like, at the cuff. It's "Wishful Thinking." It's so bad.

C: [laughing] Oh god, it's so bad! It's so bad! Take it out. Get rid of it.

G: Do you even remember this, Manika? Like- [laughs]

M: I do. The bear. The bear.

G: Yes, the bear. Oh, the bear was fine. The bear was fine.

C: The bear, that was silly, goofy, [G: Yeah, it's wonderful.] I love the child actor that they got for Audrey. That was fine.

G: The rest of the episode was horrible! [C: Frowing up.] I don't know. What other terrible episodes are there? "Monster Movie" was a little bit bad.

C: Wait, should we say why we hate "Wishful Thinking," or will the audience just understand?

G: Well, why do we hate it?

C: Okay, well, I think there's two things. The first thing is like, the misogyny and horror in like, the storyline of- What's her name? Hope? Like, the woman who's married to the guy who initiated the first wish. [G: Yeah.] And the second one was just the ideological and consistency about why making the wishes is bad and then [laughs] Sam literally saying- what? That like, what makes life life is that you don't get what you want, and you're miserable forever, and that's good? [G laughs]

G: Yeah. No, I mean, I think the main complaint really is for me the whole like, Hope situation, and also the fact that they focus on [both] the guy's feelings. "Oh my god! It's so sad that she's not in love with me anymore after the spell that made her in love with me was gone!"

C: Like, you ruined her life. [G: Yeah.] You made a wish, hoping it would come true, that she would ditch her family, ditch her friends, ditch her job, come live with you, do nothing but please you and make you roast chicken and then offer sex to you whenever you felt bad. And like, now she's gonna like, come back to reality with the memories of like, all that happening, and like, the horror of that, and have to rebuild her life from scratch after being essentially mind-controlled for a month.

G: Yeah. And like, I think, "Wishful Thinking" really cements to me who, I suppose, who Supernatural thinks is watching the show. [C: Men.] Yeah, men. [M: Yup.] And, I mean, it's very obvious from a lot of episodes of Supernatural. But this is the one where it's like, "Oh, okay." It's not even that they think men are the primary watcher. It's that they think men are the only ones watching, or like, they are the only ones watching that we [C: Care about.] are obligated to or even care about catering to. So yeah, that was a bit of a "Oh, okay. Well, that's horrible."

C: And I talk about it in the episode for it, but like, this is a Ben Edlund problem because I think the moment that I had that feeling was in Season 2 with "Simon Said," [G: Yeah.] where like- Is her name Tracy? [G: I forgot.] Okay, there's like, this woman that- what's that guy? Is his name Andy? [G: Andy mind controls-] No, no, Ansem Weems is the one who mind controls her. [G: Twin.] Okay, yeah. Andy's twin is like, an awful guy who, like, mind-controls women to rape them, and then like, makes them like, jump off of a bridge and kill themselves after or whatever the fuck. [G: Yeah.] This woman is also the love interest of Andy, his brother. And then, at the end of the episode, like, once she's been rescued like, she's like, in the ambulance and shivering and stuff. Like, she's been through like, the worst thing ever. And then Andy approaches her, and she like, is scared of him because she knows that he has mind control powers [G: As well, yeah.] like his brother. And the episode ends on his face looking sad that she rejected him in this moment of like, absolute horror and trauma for her. And that is also a Ben Edlund episode. [G: Yeah.] I don't know, this guy just has a thing where he's like, "I'm gonna make women like, the victims in this episode, but like, in a way where like, it only matters [G: Yeah.] because this causes them to reject the men that you're supposed to feel bad for in the episode."

M: Oh yeah, that episode was really bad! [C: Mm-hm.]

G: Yeah, I mean, so many episodes of Supernatural are like this. [laughs] I mean, yeah. But also, Ben Edlund, specifically, [C, laughing: Is like this.] you go into his episodes, and, like, he has good episodes. This is true. "On the Head of a Pin" is his, right?

M: He did "Mystery Spot" and "Changing Channels," too. [C: Those are fun.]

G: Did he? He also did "The Man Who Would Be King," his most iconic one. [C: Oh, yeah, yeah.] But like, lot of the times, you go into his episodes like, "I hope he doesn't write women this episode." [C and G laugh]

M: He also did the Cupid episode, too.

C: Oh, "My Dirty Valentine." [G: Yeah.] He does have a lot of bangers [G: Iconic ones, yeah.], but he's really bad about women. [laughs] [M: Yes.]

G: Yeah. There's also ones where it's like, "Well, that's horrible," yeah.

C: So yeah, I agree. "Wishful Thinking" is the worst one.

G: Manika, do you have a worst one of Season 4?

M: I would have to say- of Season 4? [G: Yes.] In my opinion, I think "Monster Movie." [G: Mm, yeah.]

C: I didn't like "Monster Movie." Because now that I've read Dracula, like, what the fuck are they on about in that one? [G laughs] That is not what happens in Dracula.

G: That is also Ben Edlund! Yeah.

M: Yeah, that's why it's my least favorite.

G: You know what? I would do an honorary mention to- what is that? "Family Remains"? [C laughs] Kinda bad. [C: It wasn't very good.] It's not as egregious. I don't think it's that bad, it's just also not good at all. [laughs] I mean, it's an interesting concept. It's just, I feel like the whole family moral that they had at the end where it's like, "It's fine that the dog died and that also the uncle died because the nuclear family is fine!" was a bit crazy.

C: Yeah. And they just witnessed their dog's throat slit and their uncle impaled in front of them, but it's fine. They're hugging each other.

G: Yeah. Well, okay. Best episode? Favorite. Well, not best. Favorite episode? What's that.

C: I'd say 4.21, even though it's also so awful.

G: It's a lot of thought. Like, you think about it a lot, I think.

C: Yeah. All the Sam hallucinations, besides, like, the useless Alastair one, were like, well-written, well-acted, brought together a lot of things that like, I was like, "Why aren't they talking about this this season?" Like, I feel like it was a really good conclusion to the Sam arc that they had for the season.

G: Okay, my answer would be "Lazarus Rising," but I feel like we shouldn't add "Lazarus Rising" in the mix just because, well, I mean, obviously. But for me, I think "It's a Terrible Life" is the best episode this season. [C: Mm.]

M: Oh, "It's a Terrible Life"'s a good one.

G: I love it! I love it. Lots to say, but I think it's good.

C: Huh. We have two Sera Gambles as the favorites so far.

G: Well, I mean, I think "It's a Terrible Life" is like, I do feel sad that it doesn't inform a lot of the future decisions Sam and Dean make. [C: Yeah.] Like, it feels very isolated, right? Like, it's a big episode. Like, Zachariah is revealed here.

C: It should be a big deal. 4.19 should also be a big deal, but it isn't.

G: But like, they don't really reckon with what they learn here, to the point where sometimes I'm like, "Do they even remember that? Like, did they forget?" But yeah, I think it's so wonderful, and I do think, like, viewing the rest of the season with the lens of what happened in "It's a Terrible Life" is like, an effective way to view it, you know? Manika, have you figured out your favorite episode?

M: Yes, I have. [G: Let's hear it.] My favorite episode is "On the Head of a Pin." [C: Good point, yeah.] [G: Yeah.] Yeah. 'Cause I just like that it goes a little bit deeper into Castiel's character, and then, like, he really has to like, think about his loyalty to Heaven, and he has to confront, like, the brutality that it would take to win a war against Hell. [G: Yeah.] So yeah, it also, like, I feel like "On the Head of a Pin," I don't know if I'm gonna regret saying this, but it really is like, kind of like, the start of the Destiel storyline. [C: Yeah.] Because the complexity-

G: I agree, yes. [M: Yeah.]

C: I think "I would give anything to have you not do this" is like-

G: Well, it's crazy! [M laughs]

C: - the first moment anyone would be like, "Wait a second. This goes deep."

M: Yeah, yeah. That's more than just like, a plea. That's like, "Okay, that's a little desperate." [C and G laugh]

G: I mean, I think "On the Head of a Pin" is like, it is the first episode in this season that, like, starts with angels in the like, teaser portion of the episode, you know? Like, before the splash screen, it was Cas. Like, Cas, was the opening of this episode. And, like, you know, I think, that sets the tone of what the episode would be, which is, it's bigger than Sam and Dean. Like, it's not about them. And like, I like that. I like that. [M: Right, right.] Yeah. Should we talk about Destiel? I feel like we should. Or shouldn't we? [laughs]

C: We could talk about Destiel. Though, okay, wait, there's something that I forgot to mention when we were talking about the Cas arc that probably doesn't matter, but I think the contrast between Cas's absolute coldness towards the Novak family in 4.20, and then him turning around and deciding to save the world and humanity is something that I wish they'd smoothed over a little bit. [G: Yeah.] And I know he was just recently brainwashed by Heaven, so that's probably part of it. But like, I feel like 4.20 could have been a really good opportunity to show like, "Okay, when Cas first possessed Jimmy, like, he traumatized Claire for life by going, 'I'm not your father' and then fucking off forever. But like, maybe now that he's had more time on earth, he's talked to Dean, like, he's learned to care about humanity more." Like, maybe when he repossesses Jimmy and leaves Amelia and Claire, like, just like, one word of comfort, or like, one look or something, and it would like, show that he's changed as a person, in like, how he cares about people, and like, that would be a better lead-in to him like, deciding not to end the world in 4.22. [G: Yeah. Yeah, you're right.] But we don't get that, and I feel like that could have probably fixed most of my issues with the Cas arc in Season 4,

G: 4.20 Cas is like, I don't know. He's like, he DGAF. [C: Yeah.] He absolutely does not care about the Novaks. And then, you know, we go to 4.21, and he's looking at Dean in that crazy scene like, "Oh my god, Dean, I'm saurr sad." [C laughs] And it's like, it is a bit like, of a jarring thing if you- especially if you like, are watching for the Cas. [C: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.] It's like, "Oh, what the Hell?"

C: Yeah. I also just find, like, "He didn't end the world because he wanted to fuck that one guy" [laughs] as like, not a particularly interesting idea to me.

G: Well, I think it's so interesting. [C and G laugh] I think it's so funny.

C: Anything that points to him having larger values around the sanctity of life or whatever the fuck, I would like.

G: I mean, as I said in our 4.22 episode, like, I don't want to overstate how much Dean influenced Cas to stop the Apocalypse, but I also don't want to understate it. [C: Yeah, yeah. It matters.] Like, it does matter. It's not the only thing that matters, but it does. [C: It's a main thing, yeah.] Yeah. But yeah. I think our next part is- well, Crystal, you're supposed to discuss the thing. [M laughs]

C: Wait, what thing?

G: Like, where's the fucking spreadsheets, right?

C: Oh, is that now? Okay. But you said, "Should we talk about Destiel?" and then we didn't talk about Destiel.

G: You're right! Well, do we have anything to say about Destiel? I mean, like, for me, honestly-

C: They do want to fuck each other. It is true. I did see it on my screen, how they wanted to fuck each other. I don't know that they're romantically into each other yet, but they do want to fuck each other.

G: I think I am just surprised that- 'Cause, you know, when you're in the fandom a lot, you interface with Destiel a lot, so there is a tendency to be like-

C: Yeah, "Maybe you're overstating it" or whatever.

G: Yeah, like, we are in a community where we are engaging with it in this way, so of course we're going to, you know? But seeing the show and the Destiel scenes with the context of the show, it's like, "No, it is real. Like, it is happening on my screen." And it is a bit of a shock, even if I knew it was gonna be there that it was really there, the intensity that it was in. So that's all I have to say, really.

C: Manika, do you have Season 4 Destiel thoughts?

M: All I have to say is that they tried to tell them that it wasn't happening, and girl, [C: It was.] the one thing that they don't do is look back at the source! Because if it's one thing [claps], the Supernatural fans will do, [claps] is they will revisit. [C: Yeah.] They revisit, okay? They will cite their sources. Alright, you put it in the show. You wrote the show. [C laughs] Lots of people who were writing on Season 4 were still writing on the show [G: That's true, yeah.] until Season 10, Season 11, and those same people would go into conventions and laugh or chuckle at the even mention of Destiel. [C laughs] I am a firm believer that like, maybe you shouldn't bring up ships around actors 'cause they could feel uncomfortable. But you couldn't tell us it wasn't happening because you wrote the show. [G: Yeah.] You wrote the line, sir! We're not dumb!

C: Okay, do we think it was an acting or a writing thing that carried Destiel in Season 4? Like, do you think that there's a character that could have the same lines that Cas has-

G: [laughs] I mean, here's my hot take. I think it's the directing. [laughing] I think Robert Singer did this! [C laughs]

C: The blocking? Honestly, yeah, I'm on your side with that one, yeah.

G: Like, I think it's just like, this is where they stand. This is how they-

C: They didn't have to stand that close. Robert Singer was like, "Few inches closer. Go."

G: [laughs] No, yeah. Like, a lot of the times when we talk about Destiel in Season 4 specifically, it's about the blockings. It's about the vibe of the scene, how the scene looks in comparison to other scenes in the show of the season. Like, something I say a lot about Season 4 Destiel is like, a lot of it is so quiet. A lot of it like, happens at night, in the privacy of anything else. And the reason why is because they're trying to make Cas mysterious and, like, you know, specifically like, mysterious and talking to Dean. But the way it comes off is like- I don't even know. Like, they're just hanging out.

C: Yeah. At night, in the dark, standing very close to each other.

C: Okay, so I guess let's start with the tab on the spreadsheet that I call "Writer Sins" [laughs], which is our misogyny, racism, and homophobia stats. So under misogyny, the episode we ranked as the most misogynistic was "Lucifer Rising," written by and directed by Eric Kripke, which we gave 4 misogyny points for-

G: Really? Because it ends the Ruby story? Is that why?

C: Yeah, 'cause it's the way that it ends the Ruby story. And you also had an especial aversion to the [G: Oh, the nuns.] the way that the nuns were killed in that episode. [G: Yeah.] Following that, there are three episodes that got 3 misogyny points, and those are "Monster Movie," [G: Hell yeah.] "Wishful Thinking," [G: Hell yeah.] and "The Monster at the End of This Book." So yeah.

G: Yeah. I can't believe we put "Wishful Thinking" at three! We should've got that higher, but oh well.

C: We should have. We should have put it higher. I think I think we got more liberal with our points after we came back from RubbishPod because we weren't as inundated in the Supernatural bullshit.

G: Yeah, yeah, you're right. We're just used to it.

C: So under racism, the episode we ranked as the most racist was "On the Head of a Pin" by Ben Edlund, which is 'cause it concludes the Uriel arc, I believe, [G: Yeah.] so that got 3 points. And then the other, [laughs] second most racist episode [G, laughing: It's so funny.] was "Heaven and Hell," which had 2 points, and I think that's also because the way they treated Uriel as a character.

G: And Ruby's-

C: Right, and also when Ruby possessed a Black maid and the director's choice [G: The way that was directed was-] Yeah.

M: Oh, that was weird.

G: It was very odd, yeah.

C: They were like, "Suddenly, she is sassy in a new way." And it's like, "Interesting. Why is that?"

G: Yeah, like, Ruby has been in two- three vessels at that point, right? And it's like, "Well, why is this the only one that's different? What's that about?"

C: Yeah. And then for homophobia, obviously, our winner winner chicken dinner is [with G] "It's a Terrible Life" by Sera Gamble.

G: [laughing] I love it!

C: Love it, love it. [laughs] 'Cause the whole thing was like, "Wouldn't it be gay if you had a job in an office?"

G: "Wouldn't it be funny if it was gay?" yeah.

C: Yeah, yeah. And after that, we don't have a 4 points of homophobia. We don't have a 3 point homophobia. The next one is a 2-point homophobia on "Criss Angel is a Douchebag" by Julie Siege because of, I think, the way that the magicians were reacting to the new one, Jeb or whatever.

G: But they were also gay.

C: Yeah, I mean, we know in our hearts that they were also in a polycule. : Oh, and also, The fucking Chief! [laughs] I forgot about The Chief! [G: Oh my god, yeah!] That's probably why.

G: You haven't been had [overlapping with C] until you've been had by The Chief.

C: Love that. And then, if we just added up everything, like, [G: Per writer?] the worst in terms of social ills was "Lucifer Rising," which we gave 5 total points. Also, not one of our categories, but of course we gave 4.21 5 points for ableism [G laughs] for the way they treated Sam's addiction. [G: Horrible.] So it is also pretty bad. In terms of writers themselves, this is a fun season because there's no one-off writers like, at all. [G: Yeah.] In Season 3, we still had guest writers. In Season 4, it's like, the team. [G: Yeah.] Eric Kripke, Sera Gamble, Jeremy Carver, Kathryn Humphrys, Ben Edlund, the Dabb-Loflin duo, which will become a Dabb solo thing eventually, right? And Julie Siege.

G: Eventually, but still a long time from now.

C: Yeah. For our writers, our most misogynistic writer is Eric Kripke, who had an average of 2 2/3 misogyny per episode over his 3 episodes. He is also our most racist writer, [C and G laugh] with 1 1/3 average racism points per episode.

M: Lord. Lord, if you guys- [C laughs] [C: Yeah?] I just wanna speak on that real quick. [C: Yeah. Yes.] I feel like that hasn't changed.

G: The Boys?

M: Yeah. [C: Oh, tell me more.] Because if you look at the recent casting for The Boys, and like, they're adding like, two women to the cast, and one's a Black woman, one's a white woman. And they're supposed to be like, the new antagonists. So now I'm sitting here like, "Okay." If you don't know anything about The Boys, if you haven't been watching it, I'm like, "Okay, so, you really setting us up [C and G laugh] to do this, and yet Homelander will still live? Is that it? Like, what's it gonna take? Hello?"

C: Yeah, I haven't seen The Boys. Who's Homelander?

G: It's a main character, right? Or am I completely lying.

M: Homelander- Yeah, he is one of the main characters.

C: I thought the main character was an Asian woman?

M: So, there is an Asian woman in the show, [C: Okay.] [G: I love her.] and she is one of the main characters, but she also doesn't talk, you know, fulfilling the silent Asian trope, which we love. But Homelander is also like, the main antagonist, who for some reason doesn't die, and for some reason hasn't been killed yet. And if you've seen the meme of that one guy-

G: Of that guy, like, looking around and like, smiling, kinda. Is it that one?

M: Yeah, that's a Homelander.

C: I don't think I've seen this meme. Or the description-

G: I'll send it to you at some point, don't worry about it. [C: Okay.] And you will recognize it immediately.

C: Mm-hm. In terms of homophobia, our most homophobic writer is, of course, [with G] Sera Gamble! Because of what happened in "It's a Terrible Life". So she has an average of one homophobia point per her 4 episodes. But that's just 'cause we gave her 4 points at one time. [G, laughing: Love that.] So for like, totals, Eric Kripke is the worst, an average of 4 writer sins per episode, which means that he committed 12 throughout the season, which is quite a few. And then runner-ups for worst writers in terms of social ills are Ben Edlund, average of 3 1/3 points total for his 3 episodes, and then Julie Siege, who had an average of 2 2/3 points for her 3 episodes. So yeah. [G: Love that.] That is the state of things. Huh, if we want to have a comparative look between seasons 4 and 3, there are more points in Season 4 than Season 3. [G: But Season 3 is so short.] Like, our worst writer in Season 3- Well, this is averages. Our worst overall writer in Season 3 was Ben Edlund, who had 2 2/3 average points per episode. So comparing to the 4 points max in Season 4 with Eric Kripke, either we've gotten looser with our points-giving or they've gotten worse as people. [laughs]

G: Okay, IMDb. Did I win? Did I lose? What's the situation?

C: You lost. [laughs]

G: Are you serious?

C: You lost.

G: That's so sad!

C: I know. This never happens.

G: Wait, I'm going to go to our doc right now- This is so horrible! Well, why did I lose? What's the situation?

C: Okay so, why did you lose? I guess for the two of us, we each only guessed one episode correctly for the IMDb score. I guessed "The Rapture" correctly, and you guessed "Monster at the End of This Book" correctly. [G: Yeah.] For our most off guesses, for "In the Beginning" you guessed it was an 8.4 on IMDb. It is a 9.2, so I think that did a lot of damage to you. [G: Yeah.] You also, guessed "Metamorphosis" a lot higher, you guessed "Great Pumpkin" a lot higher, same with "Criss Angel," and then you guessed "Heaven and Hell" a lot lower. So I feel like those were the main hits that you took. I was 0.7 points off on "Metamorphosis"; I thought it was ranked higher than it was, and I also thought that "Criss Angel" was more beloved and that "Yellow Fever" was less beloved, so those were my major points off. [G: Yeah.] But basically, your absolute difference, on average, from the IMDb score was 0.332 and mine was 0.314, so I was closer [G laughs] than you were by a smidgen, [G: Boo.] though really, the real winner of the season was Danica, who only guessed on one episode, "Lazarus Rising" and was off by 0.2. [G laughs] So her average offness is 0.2 points, which is a lot better than both of ours.

G: I love it! Yeah. [C: But yeah.] What is the surprise episode here? I think "When the Leevee Breaks-" "When the Levee Breaks" where I'm like, "That is low. I thought it would be higher."

C: That's true. That's also a surprise episode, both of us guessed it to be at least 0.5 higher than what IMDb gave it. In terms of how each of the writers fared on IMDb, Eric Kripke was the most beloved, 9.17 average IMDb score. But that's just because he gives himself like, the finale and the first episodes and shit. And then, after that, Ben Edlund had an 8.7 av, Dabb and Lofflin, 8.63, and then Jeremy Carver, 8.6, and then Sera Gamble and Julie Siege had the worst IMDb scores with an 8.55 for Gamble and an 8.5 for Siege.

G: That's not true!

C: Oh, no, sorry! The worst, I forgot, so bad I forgot about her, [G, laughing: You're so mean!] was Cathryn Humphrys, 8.2.

G: No, but like, I think "Metamorphosis" was good. It was just not rated high.

C: Yeah, it just was not rated high. "Sex and Violence" was not very good-

G: "Sex and Violence" was interesting. It's also just not rated high.

C: It was not very good.

G: Okay, so, for our final bit, we need to rank Season 4 in comparison to all the other season. So currently, our ranking is 1, 2, 3. [C: Right, yeah.] Where's Season 4? Do we think- I think Season 4 is better than 2 and 3, for sure. Do we think it's better than Season 1?

C: It's been so long. Like, I don't know.

G: Honestly, I think Season 1 is better.

C: Than Season 4? Okay. [G: Yeah.] I am inclined to rate Season 4 higher just because I don't remember Season 1 so good, and also, it had like, [laughs] "Bugs" and the racist truck and all that shit in it. Like, I feel like there were probably some real clunkers in Season 1. [G: Okay.] There were also some real clunkers in Season 4, though, so I don't know.

G: I think we shouldn't think of it as individuals. We should think of it as a whole. Is Season 4 as a whole better than Season 1 as a whole? And I think Season 1's better.

C: When I think of Season 1 as a whole, like, I'm thinking about like, "bad moon rising," the fic. I don't know what Season 1 is outside of the concepts of "bad moon rising" the fic, so, I don't know. [G laughs] I'm just gonna put Season 4 higher for now. I don't know. I don't know. I mean... No, I miss Meg. I miss Meg. No, [laughs] Season 1's better.

G: Wait. I wanna hear what Manika is going to say about this. [C: Okay.] Do you think Season 1 or 4 is better?

M: Season 4 is definitely better. [C: Okay.] [G gasps] It's found its footing, it's better writing, the characters are finally, like, being introduced to higher stakes. [G: Yeah.] There's more to lose. There's a lot more that we have to like, deal with, and there are new characters being introduced, so we don't know who's gonna last, we don't know who's gonna, you know, be in Season 5, who's gonna be written off, essentially. So Season 4 is definitely better. 'Cause Season 1 is literally like, the starting off point where they're doing just like, [G: Whatever, yeah. They're just doing whatever.] monster of week and trying to find their dad. Yeah. Season 4 is really when Supernatural [clapping] hits the ground running. Season 4 is definitely better.

G: I think that's true if we're talking about the plot. Like, the plot does get better in Season 4. This is true. 'Cause in Season 1, they really were just fucking around.

C: Yeah, they were fucking around, occasionally thinking about their dad

G: I think Season 1, vibes-wise... I don't know! Like, I mean, on one hand, Season 4 is where Cas shows up, so that is important to me in that way. But Season 1, I feel like, it's like, Season 1 Sam and Dean, I like them the most. [laughs] What do you think? Honestly-

C: I'm being swayed by Manika a little bit. [G: Well.] Yeah, like, the monster of the week format in Season 1 is kind of tiring.

G: No, the thing is, when we were watching Season 1, we hated it. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] But it's like, a good season to look back on, [laughs] if you're not rewatching it. Okay.

C: Right. So it's only good in the mind and not on the screen?

G: [laughing] Okay, I think maybe we should put Season 4 up because I did just say that Season 1 is bad on screen. [C laughs]

C: I mean, I also think Season 4 is bad on screen. [C and G laughing] Like, this isn't like a "Both are so good, I'm trying to figure it out." This is like a "Which one can I tolerate more?" thing to me.

G: Honestly, I think it's just because Season 4 is sad. Season 4 is a sad season, especially if you're watching it from the Sam perspective. It's very-

C: We were crying, like, every other week in Season 1, and like, we barely cried in Season 4.

G: Well that's because we were really into it! That's true.

C: So there has to be a reason we were crying so much.

G: It's because it was effective. It's because, as I said-

C: So Season 4 isn't effective?

G: No, Season 4 is effective in what it's trying to do, and it's trying to do plot. [C: Right.] Season 1 is effective in what it's trying to do, and it's trying to do character, I think.

C: Okay. Well.

G: Well? What if we just put them side by side? What do you think? What do you think?

C: Seems like the coward's way out to me. [G laughs]

G: This is true. We're just like John Winchester for real. Well, I'll put Season 1 above. Yeah, that's my final answer.

C: For the sake of equality, I'll put Season 4 above.

G: No! Wait, we're going to have different rankings?

C: Oh, wait, was there a requirement for us to come to a BABPod consensus on this?

G: Yes. [C: Okay.] But, I mean, it's because we had a consensus in 1, 2, and 3. So we can have like, a "we're splitting off" in Season 4, just like Sam and Dean [C: Just like Sam and Dean!] in Season 5. [laughs] Yeah.

C: I still don't even know if I believe it, though. 'Cause Season 1 is so- I think of Season 1 so fondly in my mind [G: I do.], but I think that's just 'cause I haven't watched it for like, a year. [laughs] More than a year.

G: I think- yeah. [laughing] And see? Back disagreeing. Well, let's just separate. Let's tread different paths.

C: Okay, okay. Manika, you said that Season 3 is sort of like, your fave, though, right?

M: I like Season 3 just because it's fun. But Season 4, arguably, is the best.

C: Got it. Okay, so our ranking- Well, my ranking right now is Season 4, then 1, then 2, then 3. Grey's is 1, 4, 2, 3. What are your rankings for the first four seasons of Supernatural?

M: I would probably say, if I had to rank them, it would be 4, 3, 1, and 2. [C: Mm.]

G: 4, 3, 1, and 2. [M: Yeah.] That's fascinating. You really like Season 3.

M: Yeah, I do! I mean, I feel like Season 3 has the most like, fun, meta episodes, and ir doesn't really take itself too seriously. But also, like, it was in the middle of the '07 writer's strike and only has 16 episodes, so they were just kinda doing whatever. [C and G: Yeah.]

C: I do think that like, "Ghostchasers-" or no. It's "Ghostfacers"? Yeah. [M: "Ghostfacers," yeah.] I think that "Ghostfacers" and like, "Mystery Spot" are definitely a good, fun time. I think that the last few episodes of Season 3 were quite underwhelming, and that's probably what caused us to dislike it so much by the end. But I mean, like, Bela was there. Like, that was fun. [G: Yeah.] Wait, why don't you like Season 2?

G: I mean, it's nothing against Season 2 or anything like that, you know. Like, let me ask you, what did you think of Season 2? And I'll give you my answer.

G: Horrible! We hated it.

C: Yeah, I felt pretty annoyed during a lot of it. I feel like they just did a bad job with the overarching plot, I think, where they just completely dropped the psychic kids thing-

G: It was really good when it started.

C: Yeah, yeah, like, 2.01 was a banger. We hated 2.02 because of the ableism.

G: Actually, it was also really good when it ended, I feel like. [M: Hm.] [C: Was it?] So why did we not like it? [laughs]

C: Was it good when it ended? [G: AHBL?] How good was AHBL, though? Like, did we like it that much? I mean, they treat Jake horribly. That's like, the main thing I remember about it.

G: I mean, I don't know. But again, Supernatural is very much a show where it's good in retrospect. So like, now that we're thinking about it, it's like, "OMG, it was real good. Like, what did we not like about it?"

C: I mean, is it? Was it real good? Like, I remember "Simon Said," which I did not like. 2.01 was really good. AHBL, like, the main things I remember about that are like, being mean to Jake and then John Winchester rising from Hell [G laughs], clapping Dean on the shoulder, and then disappearing into Heaven. [G: Yeah.] I think I liked Jo and "No Exit," like, her presence, and, like, Ellen's presence was something good in Season 2. But I was frustrated that they didn't develop the overarching plot very well.

G: Yeah. Season 2, like, everything just entered, like, at the end. There was no buildup in the middle of the season. But I would say that it's kind of like, again, the vibes situation. Like, I like the vibe of like, "Sam and Dean are here, and their dad just died, and they're trying to find their way around the world with that." And I think Sam's character arc that season was interesting, of like, "I hate Dad!" And then, like, he dies, and it's like, "Well, he was right, probably." And Dean's, you know, experiencing the opposite of that arc, and I was really into that.

M: Yeah. I feel that. I think the reason why I'm not a huge fan of Season 2, 'cause if I have to put it up against the fourth seasons, I'm just gonna say Season 2 is maybe not like- I don't wanna say it's bad [G: But it's weak, yeah.] but it's a little weaker, you know? They introduce the chase for Azazel, and that's interesting. And then they bring in Bobby, who I love. And then there's like, the complex prophecy behind Sam's destiny leaking into like, other children with special abilities. Like, you mentioned, there's an episode where, like, the brother- That's in Season 2, right? Where the brother has the mind control. [C: Yeah.] That's also the same season. So Season 2 is kind of like, trying to continue on with Season 1, but they can't really do monster of the week because you're still introducing new things, you're trying to follow, like, a storyline, and there's supposed to be like, something we're chasing at the end of the season, all this other stuff. So I think that Season 2 is really when Supernatural is trying to build something more [G: Yeah.] out of what the show really is, and they're just first finding their footing. So it's just kind of like, the first start. The first step, I guess I would say.

G: It feels a little bit like a bridge season, I understand.

M: Almost, yeah.

G: I think that's how I feel about Season 3 more, and that's why I didn't like it as much. But yeah, I mean, I don't think you can blame that necessarily on Season 3 due to the circumstances in which it was created, you know?

C: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right. Season 3, I didn't like it very much because it's just like, the season where they try to prevent Dean from going to Hell, but I know he's going to Hell anyway.

G: Yeah, I feel like it would be much more effective if you didn't know that, you know. Like, if you're like, "Oh my god, he really does go to Hell at the end? What the hell?" So yeah. [C: You're right.]

So that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be, I don't know, like- [C: 5.01?] Well, we will be doing Season 5, Episode 1. What's that called? Whatever it's called. [laughs] What is it called? 5.01...

C: It's "Sympathy for the Devil."

G: Yeah, well, we're doing that. But before we leave, Manika, do you wanna tell the audience where to find you, how to contact you- "contact you" [laughs], but yeah.

M: Yeah! Yeah! You guys could find me- you can look up my podcast I've Been Meaning to Watch That, and you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can find my podcast, you know, where you listen to podcasts, you can follow us on TikTok. Definitely check out our YouTube 'cause we upload highlights, like, at least twice or three times a week, and we have a full video version of the podcast up every Monday afternoon. And you can find me on TikTok at my first name 3000 [@manika3000] and follow me on there 'cause I like to talk about movies and TV shows and do analysis on TikTok. And that's about it. Thank you so much for having me on, guys. This was really great.

G: Yeah! Thank you so much for coming here!

C: Yeah! It was so good having you, yeah! [G: Yeah!] [M: Yes!]

Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: Yeah. You can email us at [email protected]. See you guys next time! [C and G] Bye!

[guitar music]

#transcript

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