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dracodazaii · 17 days

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im sorry but i can never be a lyanna stan guys.

just lemme explain.

obviously this is only if she willingly went w rhaegar

To begin with, the situation in its simplest form is that Rhaegar and Elia are married, amicable yet not in love, and Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna, causing chaos to ensue amongst the realm.

Even if no war occured and everything was fine, how can Lyanna try to justify running away with a married man, especially on the way to her brothers wedding which feels very selfish, even if Brandon didn’t want to marry Cat, like she still ruined their wedding day.

Not to mention, that running with Rhaegar meant that shes inserted herself into his marriage which is Elia’s place. How nonsensical it is to run away with a married man and somehow marry him!

There’s two routes people go to justify it, and I’ll explain why I think they suck:

1) E-R-L is a polygamous marriage: This is not appeasable to the realm at all! Nobody will accept that. The only reason Aegon+Rhaenys+Visenya were accepted was because they were conquering Westeros, and like you can’t say shit about the guys conquering you!! Also the Targs were on thin ice then, and Maegor also tried, and look what happened afterwards!

2) E-R was annulled and R-L are married: I don’t think this is reasonable at all. Considering that Rhaegar is only HEIR, just like Daemon, for example. Both wanted annulments and both need the permission from the King and/or High Septon, but also considering how the likes of Aegon IV couldn’t annul his own marriage, do you really think a measly heir could?! At least in Daemon’s situation, he had no children, but as Aegon IV and Rhaegar both had kids (Elia giving birth twice in 3 years) theres no grounds for annulment, and it would disinherit his children potentially anyway, or even start a second Dance. As soon as you have a second wife, whether polygamous, annulled or dead first wife, war will be almost inevitable between the potential heirs.

Also Ik its not possible.. but can we stop with the E/R/L shipping in a serious manner (crackship is fine but in canon is 😐)

Like genuinely thinking mid-20s Elia would want to romance a 14 year old girl, would be fine with her husband romancing said 14 year old, or join in together, is so crazy to me. Like, yes Rhaegar is very much in the pedo-realm but why would Elia also follow suit??!

And like not to be a huge Robert Baratheon stan here (i hate GOT era him) but you can’t deny that it is the rebellion+it’s repercussions on his life, that change him so heavily into this twisted abusive, pedo man. He was not a great guy pre-rebellion, he slept around, was loud and rowdy, but I feel like you can’t really say that Lyanna somehow predicted that he would be this abusive evil man, tbh it seems like she just disliked his promiscuity which is valid, but in doing the same to Elia, her point gets invalidated in my eyes.

Also next point is the age-situation.

Now i know that obviously in a real life situation, a 14 year old girl is at no blame for the groomer actions of the adult…. however just look at how GRRM perceives this. like not as an “oh medieval girls married at 14, its fine” because they were still mentally children… but i mean how GRRM perceives relationships akin to R-L and characters by Lyannas age in ASOIAF-verse.

Ok so GRRM thinks R-L is romantic, which means that the groomer undertones aren’t necessarily meant to be there, and its meant to be more of a Romeo-Juliet situation (which heavily fucked over Romeos girl Rosaline ie Elia). He also believes Dany-Drogo and San-San is healthy, so I don’t think age heavily affects characters romantic feeling and actions much then.

Then if we see character Lyanna’s age, they’re treated as adults (yes some do have child impulses but overall adults). You have Robb acting impulsively like a kid, but ultimately being treated as an adult and being killed. I feel like even though they have kid impulses, they’re meant to get adult consequences for their actions.

Also ages as a whole is fucked up in ASOIAF in comparison to real world, like you have baby Rickon Stark going feral in Skagos, you have 3 year old Joffrey Velaryon/Strong squaring up to Aemond, and you even have 11 year old Benjicott Blackwood being an absolute beast of a warrior when in the real-world, he’d be just a kid, useless in defence.

#asoiaf #game of thrones #anti rhaegar x lyanna #lyanna stark bashing #elia martell #rhaegar targaryen #rhaegar targaryen bashing #lyanna stark #a song of ice and fire #got #elia martell deserved better

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duxbelisarius · 5 months

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The Dragon has Three Heads or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Believe That Young Griff is the Real Real

Before going any further, I want to warn anyone reading this analysis that it will contain spoilers for A Dance With Dragons, so proceed at your own risk.

This essay came about from an 'epiphany' I had while reading ADWD on break at work, specifically chapter Daenerys VII. In this chapter, Quentyn Martell and his companions present themselves to Daenerys and offer her a marriage alliance with Dorne. This being the day of her wedding to Hizdahr zo Loraq, Dany refuses and makes note mentally of Quaithe's earlier warning about not trusting "the Sun's Son." The identification seems simple enough, with House Martell's sigil featuring the sun and Quentyn being the son of Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne, but there are serious problems with this conclusion.

The issue with labeling Quentyn Martell the Sun's Son stems from how Dany reaches this conclusion; for starters, this is the original quote given by Quaithe in Daenerys II:

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

And this is how Dany identifies Quentyn as the Sun's Son in Daenerys VII and VIII:

Something tickled at her memory. "Ser Barristan, what are the arms of House Martell?"

"A sun in splendor, transfixed by a spear."

The sun's son. A shiver went through her. "Shadows and whispers." What else had Quaithe said? The pale mare and the sun's son. There was a lion in it too, and a dragon. Or am I the dragon? "Beware the perfumed seneschal." That she remembered. "Dreams and prophecies. Why must they always be in riddles? I hate this. Oh, leave me, ser. Tomorrow is my wedding day."

...

The pale mare. Daenerys sighed. Quaithe warned me of the pale mare's coming. She told me of the Dornish prince as well, the sun's son. She told me much and more, but all in riddles.

George has talked about the fickle nature of prophecy in the books and publicly, citing the Duke of Somerset's death at the Battle of St. Albans in Shakespeare's Henry VI as an example of why the literal or easiest interpretations are not always the most reliable. While Dany's conclusion that Quentyn is the 'Sun's Son' seems straightforward, she bases it solely on Barristan's description of the Martell arms. Her reasoning is mainly to justify marrying Hizdahr by dismissing the Martell offer, as Dany herself barely remembers Quaithe's warning and bemoans her 'riddles'.

Assuming that the 'Pale Mare' refers to the 'bloody flux' that the Astapori refugees bring to Meereen, and that the Kraken, dark flame, lion, griffon and mummer's dragon refer to Victarion Greyjoy, Moqorro, Tyrion, Connington and Young Griff respectively, the sequence of Quaithe's warning makes no sense with Quentyn as the 'Sun's Son.' At the end of ADWD, Tyrion is outside the walls of Meereen while Victarion and Moqorro are en route with the Iron Fleet, and Connington and Young Griff are in Westeros. If Dany's return to Meereen from the Dothraki Sea is followed by her journeying westwards, then this sequence makes sense. Victarion will likely destroy the Slaver's fleets and is seeking Dany's hand in marriage, while Moqorro is with him for the purpose of acknowledging her as Azor Ahai and encouraging her to free the slaves of Volantis. Given Tyrion's association with Varys, Illyrio, Jorah and now 'Brown Ben Plumm,' and his family's role in Robert's rebellion, it makes sense that he would not immediately seek out Daenerys on her return to Meereen. Connington and Young Griff await her in Westeros, but Quentyn as the 'Sun's Son' precedes all of them, breaking Quaithe's otherwise sensible sequence. If Quentyn were the 'Sun's Son' he could just as easily have been paired with the Kraken, since both are sent by the heads of their houses to offer her an alliance, while Tyrion and Moqorro travel together on the Selaesori Qhoran (the 'Perfumed Seneschal') and Connington and Griff are in league with Varys.

The far greater issue with Dany's interpretation is that we have access to Quentyn's POV, and there is nothing to suggest that he seeks to betray Daenerys. His purpose was to approach Dany with a marriage alliance, to assist her in reclaiming her crown; his party was even sent by Tatters to scope out the situation in Meereen for a possible double-crossing of the Yunkai'i, specifically to aid Dany. The only thing close to untoward that he does is attempt to claim one of her Dragons, and this was a desperation move driven by his insecurities and his fear of returning to his father empty handed, which would mean that his fallen companions died for nothing:

"What name do you think they will give me, should I return to Dorne without Daenerys?" Prince Quentyn asked. "Quentyn the Cautious? Quentyn the Craven? Quentyn the Quail?" (The Discarded Knight, ADWD)

Volantis, Quentyn thought. Then Lys, then home. Back the way I came, empty-handed. Three brave men dead, for what?

...

His father would speak no word of rebuke, Quentyn knew, but the disappointment would be there in his eyes. His sister would be scornful, the Sand Snakes would mock him with smiles sharp as swords, and Lord Yronwood, his second father, who had sent his own son along to keep him safe … (The Spurned Suitor, ADWD)

Disqualifying Quentyn as the Sun's Son leaves us with only three options, of which only one really works. Trystane is the only other son of House Martell aside from Quentyn via Prince Doran, and given his limited roll in the story thus far I think it's safe to cross him off the list. Doran could theoretically work as the 'Sun's son,' as his mother was Princess of Dorne before him; given that Quaithe describes the figures as going to Dany, Doran's limited mobility and poor health would disqualify him. This leaves us with only one 'son of a sun,' that being 'Young Griff,' aka Aegon VI Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne.

This association of Aegon with the Martells via his mother fits with the copious amounts of imagery linking him to the Rhoynar and to 'Egg' aka Aegon V of "Dunk and Egg" fame, specifically that character's travels in Dorne. Tyrion finds him living on a pole boat in the Rhoyne River, home of the ancient Rhoynar culture that Dorne descends from. The Shy Maid is operated by Yandry and Ysilla, so-called 'orphans of the Greenblood' which are another allusion to Dunk and Egg's travels on the Greenblood River in Dorne:

A poleboat had taken them down the Greenblood to the Planky Town, where they took passage for Oldtown on the galleas White Lady.

...

When they’d been poling down the Greenblood, the orphan girls had made a game of rubbing Egg’s shaven head for luck. (The Sworn Sword)

In Tyrion IV of ADWD, a massive horned turtle appears in the river by the Shy Maid, an obvious reference to the Rhoynish 'Old Man of the River,':

It was another turtle, a horned turtle of enormous size, its dark green shell mottled with brown and overgrown with water moss and crusty black river molluscs. It raised its head and bellowed, a deep-throated thrumming roar louder than any warhorn that Tyrion had ever heard. “We are blessed,” Ysilla was crying loudly, as tears streamed down her face. “We are blessed, we are blessed.”

Duck was hooting, and Young Griff too. Haldon came out on deck to learn the cause of the commotion . . . but too late. The giant turtle had vanished below the water once again. “What was the cause of all that noise?” the Halfmaester asked.

“A turtle,” said Tyrion. “A turtle bigger than this boat.”

“It was him,” cried Yandry. “The Old Man of the River.”

And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.

When Tyrion and Haldon visit the Painted Turtle inn to find information about Daenerys' whereabouts, we have an interesting description of the inn from Tyrion:

The ridged shell of some immense turtle hung above its door, painted in garish colors. Inside a hundred dim red candles burned like distant stars. (Tyrion VI, ADWD)

We once more have Rhoynish symbolism in the turtle, while the 'garish colors' are reminiscent of Young Griff's hair, which is dyed blue in the Tyroshi fashion. Tyrion's description of inside the 'Painted Turtle' is one of dim red candles burning like stars, which can be seen as an oblique reference to the red rubies on Rhaegar's black breastplate, thereby associating the red of Targaryen heraldry with the cultural symbols of the Rhoynar.

The 'Dunk and Egg' imagery goes further, with both Egg and Aegon wearing distinctive straw sun hats, and being accompanied by their Hedge Knights from the Stormlands, both of whom have titles derived from their own simplistic personalities (Duncan the Tall, Rolly Duckfield). Moreover, Egg's journeying to Dorne ends up giving him refuge from the Spring Sickness that ravages Westeros, while Aegon's time in Essos serves as a refuge from Robert's spies and the chaos of the War of the Five Kings. While these similarities might be viewed as a doomed attempt by Varys to recreate Egg through Aegon, I think the purpose of these parallels is to establish both princes as following similar trajectories: both are sons of a Targaryen prince (Maekar, Rhaegar) and a Dornish noblewoman (Dyana Dayne, Elia Martell); become King of the Seven Kingdoms through unexpected circumstances: and if George plans to end ADOS with a mini-Dance of the Dragons, I would expect Aegon VI to meet a fiery end like Egg did.

If Young Griff is actually Aegon VI Targaryen as well as the 'Sun's Son,' this leaves the 'mummer's dragon' without any clear identity. Part of this is due to the conviction that Dany's identification of the cloth dragon from the undying visions with a 'mummer's dragon' or puppet dragon must be correct. In truth, there are countless cases from ADWD alone that show us that a mummer's object is not necessarily a puppet, but more broadly means something which is not as it appears:

I know one stands before me now, weeping mummer's tears. The realization made her sad. (Daenerys III, ADWD)

"Not here," warned Gerris, with a mummer's empty smile. "We'll speak of this tonight, when we make camp." (The Windblown, ADWD)

"My lord, I bear you no ill will. The rancor I showed you in the Merman's Court was a mummer's farce put on to please our friends of Frey."

...

I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter … but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home." (Davos IV, ADWD)

His reign as prince of Winterfell had been a brief one. He had played his part in the mummer's show, giving the feigned Arya to be wed, and now he was of no further use to Roose Bolton. (The Turncloak, ADWD)

Fat Wyman Manderly, Whoresbane Umber, the men of House Hornwood and House Tallhart, the Lockes and Flints and Ryswells, all of them were northmen, sworn to House Stark for generations beyond count. It was the girl who held them here, Lord Eddard's blood, but the girl was just a mummer's ploy, a lamb in a direwolf's skin. So why not send the northmen forth to battle Stannis before the farce unraveled? (A Ghost in Winterfell, ADWD)

Mummer's tears and smiles are obviously false emotions, being affectations put on to hide what someone truly feels. Wyman Manderly is engaged in a mummer's farce wherein he pretends to be loyal to King Tommen and Roose Bolton, but in truth is scheming to restore the Starks to Winterfell and assist Stannis against the Boltons. Roose Bolton, Petyr Baelish and the Crown have in turn engaged in their own mummer's farce by sending Jeyne Poole north to wed Ramsay Snow in the guise of Arya Stark, "a lamb in direwolf's skin." If the 'mummer's dragon' is in fact a dragon that has been made to appear as something else, then Jon Snow more than fits this bill. By birth he should be a Targaryen, having been fathered by Rhaegar Targaryen upon Lyanna Stark; instead, his fortuitous Stark features inherited from his mother, and Ned's claiming Jon as his bastard and raising him amongst his children at Winterfell, has allowed Jon to hide in plain sight from those who would kill him for being Rhaegar's son.

The significance of Dany, Jon and Aegon being the three heads of the dragon is due to their mirroring a less conspicuous triad in George's World: elemental magic and it's connections to the Long Night. We are aware of three forms of elemental magic in the story, being pyromancy, cryomancy and hydromancy. Pyromancy is the most obvious, being the control and use of fire as we see with followers of Rhllor, and also tied to dragons. Cryomancy or ice magic appears in the powers of the Others and in the Wall separating the Seven Kingdoms from the lands beyond. Finally we have hydromancy or water magic, which was used by the Rhoynar against the Valyrian Freedhold and by Nymeria's Rhoynar settlers to support their communities within the deserts of Dorne. Company of the Cat has an excellent video discussing these three 'schools' of magic, but to summarize what she's said: Blue, Red and Green are the colours commonly associated with Ice, Fire and Water/the Sea in ASOIAF; in addition to being featured on the arms of ancient houses such as Massey and Strong, these elements are in turn associated with three magical items in the books. The first, The Horn of Joramun, can raise and lower The Wall (Ice); Dragonbinder, a horn that was likely used alongside similar horns to control the volcanoes of the fourteen flames in Valyria (Fire); and the 'Kraken summoning horn' which is most likely the Hammer of the Waters, since the Hammer raised the seas to swamp the 'Arm of Dorne,' which would have filled the seas fill with corpses of the dead and 'summoned' krakens, which would have fed on the bodies of the drowned.

The Valyrian, Northern and Rhoynish heritage of Dany, Jon and Aegon ties them to these three forms of magic respectively, and by extension to the Long Night. We are given three accounts of the Long Night between ASOIAF and TWOIAF, which I dub the 'western,' 'far eastern' and 'near eastern' versions. The 'western' account concerns the First Men, the Night's Watch, the Last Hero and the Others; the 'far eastern' account covers the 'Jade Compendium' and the Yi Tish account of the Blood Betrayal; and the 'near eastern' or Rhoynar account in which the children of Mother Rhoyne sang a song to return light to the world. Aegon is tied to the Rhoynish account through his mother's heritage, with references to the Rhoynish account in the 'Old Man of the River' appearing in ADWD and Dany's vision of Rhaegar talking about Aegon's 'Song' (that of Ice and Fire):

The Rhoynar tell of a darkness that made the Rhoyne of Essos dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru, until a hero convinced the many children of Mother Rhoyne, such as the Crab King and the Old man of the River, to put aside their bickering and join in a secret song that brought back the day. (TWOIAF: Ancient History: The Long Night)

...

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” (Daenerys IV, ACOK)

Jon's connection to the Northern account is obvious given his Stark lineage and service in the Night's Watch, as well as his dreams in ADWD:

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled … (Jon XII, ADWD)

Finally, Dany is directly referred to as Azor Ahai in the books while her visions from Daenerys IX of AGOT connect her bloodline to the Great Empire of the Dawn. The eye colours of the figures she sees match the titles of four of the eight emperors of the GEOTD, Opal, Jade, Tourmaline and Amethyst, with the Bloodstone Emperor killing his sister the Amethyst Empress and causing the Long Night. Azor Ahai and the Bloodstone Emperor are themselves connected, and I recommend David Lightbringer's Nightbringer series and "Azor Ahai the Bad Guy" video for a concise explanation. It's worth noting that David is well within the Faegon Blackfyre camp, but I think his theories here more than fit my own conclusions also.

Aegon being one of the three heads also fits in with the symbolic relationship between water, fire and ice and the green, red and blue colour scheme. As Company of the Cat points out in her video about the magic horns (timestamp 26:52), green is a secondary colour made from a 'cool' and a 'warm' colour, placing it in the middle of the spectrum while red and blue are polar opposites. Similarly, fire can melt ice back into water and water in turn quenches fire, situating Aegon at a middle ground between Jon's ice and Dany's fire. Whereas Jon's only aspect of himself that ties him to House Targaryen is his father and otherwise he is firmly associated with his mother's house, Dany is tied symbolically to her Targaryen identity in the books, being a product of Targaryen incest, the first to hatch dragons in over a century, and her ties to fire through her 'rebirth' on Mirri's pyre under the Red Comet. While Aegon's physical appearance and his father tie him clearly to House Targaryen like Dany, the support of his mother's family alongside his Rhoynar lineage and symbolism place him in a similar situation to Jon, besides their being half-brothers. This also calls to mind the three accounts of the Long Night: if Jon is the Last Hero leading the Night's Watch and Dany is Azor Ahai driving out the darkness with her 'lightbringer' (ie her dragons), Aegon is the unnamed hero who rallied the children of Mother Rhoyne to sing a secret song which brought back the day. To quote alexis_something_rose's essay about Young Griff, "I can wager who will be bickering and who will tell them to set their differences aside and join together in a secret song that will bring back the day."

Whether or not all three or some combination of them will play a decisive role in defeating the Others, or if that will be Bran's part to play, I believe strongly that Dany, Jon and Aegon will be the 'three heads of the dragon.' If 'Young Griff' is truly Sun's Son, Aegon son of Rhaegar, his joining with Dany and Jon represents a unification of the three Dawn Age narratives of the Long Night and it's eventual end. Uniting the icey North, the dragon lord's fire and the songs of Mother Rhoyne would make the endgame a true 'Song of Ice and Fire.'

#aegon vi targaryen #young griff #faegon #jon snow #daenerys targaryen #elia martell #quentyn martell #lyanna stark #rhaegar targaryen #asoiaf #asoiaf spoilers #asoiaf speculation #dorne #rhoynar #azor ahai #george rr martin #house martell

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dragonsfromthemoon · 1 year

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From a narrative standpoint, Elia Martell's brutal death has two main consequences:

1. give nuance to Robert's Rebellion.

At first, Robert Baratheon and his allies seem to be in the right. They are supposedly the heroes who raised an army to depose the tyrant and pyromaniac king, as well as “rescue” Lyanna Stark from the “clutches” of Rhaegar. Like in a fairytale, the noble warriors go against the evil dragons.

Yet, as the story progresses, we find that's not the truth. The main warrior, namely Robert, is not noble and good. The supposed main evil dragon, Rhaegar, is not evil — he is actually a tragic figure, just as Lyanna is.

Just as Elia Martell is.

Her death in the sacking of King's Landing is one of the most brutal and unfair of the Rebellion. Thus, as readers, we ask ourselves: was it really worth it? The rebels were supposedly fighting against Aerys II's tyrany and ineptitude to rule, against the unfair and cruel death of innocents like Rickard and Brandon Stark. Yet here it is this woman who is coldly murdered; Robert laughs at the corpses of her children and rewards Tywin Lannister for his loyalty.

The question of “was it really worth it?” is posed by GRRM himself in an interview, when asked about Robert's Rebellion.

youtube

To sum it up, he wants his readers to reflect and arrive at their own conclusions. And he does pose the question: was the violence in Robert's Rebellion justified?

Well, one thing is for sure: he gives nuance to this happening. Elia's death, as brutal as it was, serves this purpose.

[Personally, I frown upon the brutalization of Elia and other female characters, but that's not what I'm discussing on this meta.]

2. putting Dorne into play.

Elia was the beloved sister of Doran Martell, the Prince of Dorne, and Oberyn Martell. After her death, they spend years, up until the timeline of the main series, planning their revenge against the Lannisters and their allies. That involves a Targaryen restoration as well (first with Viserys, now with Young Griff and Daenerys).

It is clear, thus, how Elia and what happened to her are the main motivators for Doran and Oberyn Martell. The Lannisters are their enemies and will pay for what happened to Elia and her children. The themes of vengeance and war are explored here, especially through Doran Martell.

He wants to avenge his little sister, yes; but he also hesitates. He knows the costs of war and is wary of it. Innocents always end up paying an unfair price.

In conclusion, Elia's death is not even about Rhaegar and Lyanna and their relationship. There are more layers to it.

#a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #elia martell #death tw #violence tw #am i going to receive anon hate for it? very likely #do i regret writing this meta? not at all!#ps i'm blocking any and all hatred for rhaegar and lyanna here #be warned

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warsofasoiaf · 6 months

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Would there be any scenario where Dany would argue that she should be queen simply because she has three full grown dragons? If so, would there be any difference to what she is doing (in this hypothetical) and what Renly tried to do?

Any scenario? She could just say it whenever she wanted, and it would make her very Renly-esque, but it goes against her characterization. Dany has always maintained her right to rule Westeros is derived from being the rightful heir of House Targaryen in dynastic rule. She maintains that Robert's Rebellion was an usurpation of her house's rightful authority as monarchs. So even with dragons, she maintains the legal notion that she is the rightful Queen of Westeros due to inheritance, not appeal to dragon.

The big thing with Renly is that there's no succession tradition in a legalistic sense that justifies his rule. Stannis comes before him under the succession laws. He claims a sort of meritocratic: "the best-fitted" but that doesn't have any sort of tradition, nor does Renly offer any objective criteria that would cause an evaluation for *who* is best-fitted. So it is a naked appeal to force which is similar in function, if not in form, to what you suggest.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

#daenerys targaryen #renly baratheon

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esther-dot · 9 months

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We should talk more about the fandom's love of violence as a response to the injustice.

Bcs i think they're (english isn't mother lenguaje 😅) being played by Grrm? He knows we like to escape to fantasy worlds and seeing the evil be defeated, but also he knows of our taste for blood, vengeance and retaliation.

I know what he said about he not being a strict pacifist believer. But is still contradicts his beliefs to burn alive someone for example, crucify a bunch of people, torture of innocent girls, or torture, simple torture.

One of the mayor problems of Grrm is the ethics and morals of his readers(and his).

Oh, I certainly agree that our acceptance of casual violence as a culture (I say this as an American, perhaps it is different elsewhere), has made a lot of fans miss how critical he is of violence in all forms. There’s a disconnect between what we believe the solution is (killing) and how he shows that to be ineffective. As in, Aerys starts killing people in an unjustified way which leads to a justified rebellion, but in that rebellion, innocents die (Elia, her children) and characters like Ned and Robert, who are victors, have their relationships changed, change as people, never recover what they lost--themselves or their loved ones. It's not a happy ending, not merely because both of those men die by the end of the first book, but because we also know that Aerys’ daughter is coming for revenge and will unleash devastation on Westeros in her effort to reclaim it.

Or we can look at Joffrey killing Ned (unjust), the North going to war (totally understandable), but we’re shown how the smallfolk suffer, that it doesn’t save the Starks from further suffering, and Robb and Cat die. Even when wars seem justified or necessary, Martin refuses to glamorize them the way the fandom wants and might expect. I’ve said before, depicting something isn’t condoning it, and we all land in very different places on certain subjects, “is this for a purpose or is this revealing a disturbing thing about the author”? But justice, mercy, war, peace…that all seems to have been of great interest to him from the get go which means we as readers should try to listen very carefully for that authorial guidance when determining what he is saying about it. Ned chose to save Jon (commit treason), he was ready to defy Robert over Dany, he warned Cersei in an attempt to save her children, and I think fro all his mistakes elsewhere, in these moments, we were meant to see that his was the moral choice:

What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?" "The madness of mercy," Ned admitted. (AGOT, Eddard XV)

I understand how we get swept up in that feeling of power when a hero can easily kill the bad guy and guarantee a happy ending, but that isn't Martin's world, and in fact, he used Ned to show us how much he valued mercy instead. I recently watched The Last Kingdom: Seven Kings Must Die and Uhtred told someone that if you kill a man it only means three sons will rise up to kill you. It made me think of Ned's death, his children who want to kill Lannisters, of the North's loyalty to him, the reality of Dany returning, there is a cost to violence in Martin's story. Obviously, the good guys kill, you're right, he doesn't create a way to be a complete pacifist, and yet, I do think there may be a misalignment between his generation of hippies and our own which is also anti war but otherwise...shall I say, a little more open to violent means.

If we look at Ned's answer to a potential problem (whether that was Jon being a Targ who might grow to hate "the usurpers" for what they took from him a la Dany, or Jon being a bastard who might resent his trueborn "siblings"), he thought love would save them. That Jon growing up loving and being loved by his children would be the solution to a potential future problem. I've said before, I believe Jon will help in retaking Winterfell, will protect Ned's children when he failed to, because Ned, even if he is naive and people suffered for it, had the right ideals.

I believe this is why Sansa is so important because she has that ability to care and show mercy for enemies of her house and people who wrong her specifically, so it seems to me, that she would be someone who might strike compromises for peace rather than resort to further violence. War, death, that doesn’t seem to be Martin's preferred solution, and certainly, cruel deaths, torture, slavery, none of that is acceptable to him which feels like a silly thing to point out, but it is of course, an unpopular stance in the fandom, nonetheless true, and one we should keep discussing! I quite frequently see people act like those of us who write “anti Daenerys” (a tag we use out of consideration for her fans, a consideration that anti Sansa people have never given us) content are engaging in a ship war, but if one wants to understand what the author is saying, I don’t think you can avoid it? Is it really more reasonable to conclude Martin wants us to be fine with burning a slave alive than that we’re meant to be horrified? Tbh, if he didn’t want us to condemn it, doesn’t that demand we condemn his moral framework? It’s a different kind of fandom engagement, perhaps, but trying to understand what the author is saying is the basic form of engagement with a novel, shouldn’t be as offensive as people pretend.

I say this a lot but I always want to reiterate, I love that people who speak English as a second language still engage with the fandom. I know that English speakers are spoiled with content and ease of engagement, and that it can be intimidating to reach out for anyone, more so if there's anxiety about the language barrier, but I'm very happy you did it anyway, and hope you know how much I admire you for it!

#dot chat

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dalekofchaos · 4 months

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Rhaegar's victory and reign would not be long lived or the happy fairy tale everyone thinks it is

So while I still love Rhaegar and Lyanna and think a lot of events could've been better if Rhaegar killed Robert in the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar bringing peace to the realms and Rhaegar and Lyanna as this great love story is wishful thinking at best. Even I think Rhaegar's choice would've really fucked over his rule because he made enemies of everyone.

Why would anyone allow Rhaegar to rule?

By abducting an engaged noblewoman Rhaegar has told all his vassals that he gives 0 fucks about the marriage contracts that are essential to the entire system, because he’s prince and might makes right. Why would any vassal follow him? Would you follow a king who says he can break up your engagement whenever he wants?

Not even his allies want him at this point most likely. Rhaegar has dishonored the Martells and created a bastard that is a potential threat to their line. Targaryen bastards do not have a good reputation, see the Blackfyres.

Aerys was a madman who murdered the father and brother to the woman who was kidnapped. The rebellion was justified. Anything but pardons and apologies would be an idiot move on Rhaegar’s part. If he’s even allowed to be on the throne.

If for whatever reason the rebellion doesn’t continue and they don’t just rally around a new claimant then I’m guessing Rhaegar gets assassinated no matter what or would become a paranoid king just trying to stay alive for the good of the realm. The Faith will be angry at him. The Martells will be angry at him. The Starks will be angry at him. The Baratheons will be angry at him. The Arryns will be angry at him. The Lannisters will be angry at him.

I don't know if Rhaegar would have collapsed the 7K, but he wouldn't have been seen in as positive a light as he canonically is.

I mean, he kidnapped/raped a teenage girl from a Paramount family that kickstarted a massive war leaving his lawfully married wife and children to the mercy of a pyromaniac madman over a prophecy that may or may not be true.

This wouldn't inspire confidence in the nobility…….at all.

He doesn't even have dragons, which is the entire reason why his house is ruling in the first place. And Rhaegar wants to save the realm, so using the Wildfire caches is not his intention.

So let's say for arguments sake. The sacking of King's Landing doesn't happen, instead, it's the complete and utter sacking of the Rebellion. The rebel forces are decimated. Jon Arryn dies. Hoster dies. Ned Stark and the northern forces are either killed, retreats or is sent to the wall.

Ned or Benjen would declare for Northern Independence in Lyanna's name. The Vale would be outraged over Jon's death. The Blackfish would hold the Vale and the Riverlands to avenge his brother and Lord Arryn. The Lannisters would abandon the crown because after everything Tywin did, Rhaegar still refused Cersei and would not let go of Jaime. Stannis Baratheon would not take Robert's murder lightly and would lead the Stormlands against Rhaegar's rule. The Reach is a tricky one. I suppose the Tyrells would object to Rhaegar dishonoring his vows, but that's about all I could think of. The Faith would refuse to legitimize Rhaegar's rule and his marriage to Lyanna(if she's even alive) The Iron Islands sees this as an opportunity to attack and take the seven kingdoms with the Iron Price. Dorne would abandon the Targaryens. You think Oberyn would take the slight to Elia lightly? He'd be leading Dorne to save Elia and her children, burn the Targaryen dynasty down and personally kill Rhaegar himself.

The Seven Kingdoms would be at war with each other and Rhaegar's prophecy to save the realms from The Others is the least of his worries because he doomed the realm because of his decision to take Lyanna.

The War Of The Seven Kingdoms would've been more bloodier than Robert's Rebellion, War Of The Five Kings and even worse than Aegon's Conquest and it all would've been Rhaegar's fault.

#ASOIAF #Rhaegar Targaryen #Lyanna Stark #Jon Snow #Eddard Stark #Benjen Stark #Jon Arryn #Brynden Tully #Hoster Tully #Tywin Lannister #Stannis Baratheon #Oberyn Martell #Elia Martell

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la-pheacienne · 1 year

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Believe it or not, there are people who say Daenerys should “get over” being an exiled princess and stay in Essos because her family “got what they deserved”. There are people who fault her for being angry at the people who overthrew and killed her family. And yes, her father did need to be removed from power, but removing her father wasn’t all the rebels did. They also decided to overthrow the entire dynasty and kill any Targaryens they could get their hands on, including children. The rebellion is not as simple as “rebels good” “loyalists bad”. It’s not some fairytale where the handsome storm lord kills the evil dragonlord. It’s more complex. The rebels also saw the rebellion as an opportunity to take power for themselves. Daenerys doesn’t need to have positive feeling towards any of the people who helped Robert. And people who say she deserves to be in exile forever because of the things her father did, a man she never even met, are insane and lack empathy.

"the rebellion is not that simple as rebels good loyalists bad, it's not some fairytale where the handsome storm lord kills the evil Dragonlord" yeah nonnie you're talking about a fanbase that labels Rhaegar a dude 4-5 years out of highschool and Lyanna an 8th grader. Like, that's where we're at. And you come here with your fancy words and expect these people to read and understand them with the 1.5 braincell that they possess?

My biggest flex is GRRM being asked "was Robert's Rebellion justified" and his answer being "idk was Robert justified for starting a war because he lost his gf? Was Ned Stark justified for starting an entire war over a personal feud following the execution of his family?The personal interfered with the political, idk, I would like my readers to answer if personal motives can justify a war" like the dude has NO chill 🤣😂

Thank you @dragonsfromthemoon for posting this hilarious interview!

#grrm #asoiaf #anonymous #got #rhaegar targaryen #robert's rebellion #daenerys targaryen

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catdotjpeg · 15 days

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Today we take our bicycles and block the Robert Kochplein, a busy off-ramp of the A27 highway into the city of Utrecht. The morning rush hour is one of the arteries the Dutch economy, an economy complicit in the genocide in Palestine. That complicity needs to stop. Our disruptive cycle ride is part of an international day of action. In cities around the world, activists will on this day block major choke points in the economy to put pressure on the flow of capital. When governments continue to get away with their support for the extreme violence against the civilian population of Gaza, then something needs to be done. Genocide should not be business as usual. With our choice to ride our bicycles we join a long tradition of two-wheeled protest in The Netherlands. In the 1970s, Dutch people took their bicycles to protest against the dominance of cars in cities, and the Provo movement in Amsterdam challenged capitalism by making free bicycles available to everyone. Last year, Extinction Rebellion cycled onto the runways at Schiphol to protest against private-jets. We cycle today for Palestine, to demand an end to the violence and Dutch complicity. With our action we interrupt business as usual. By targeting economic activity, we speak the language of those in power: money. This inevitably will also inconvenience people, but given the gravity of the situation we consider this entirely justified. We call on the people of The Netherlands to stop what they're doing, and to show solidarity with the people in Palestine: Join the protests, and call on your government to stop supporting genocide!

-- a15actions, 15 Apr 2024

#palestine #netherlands #utrecht

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atopvisenyashill · 2 months

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In a universe where Rhaegar wins and Jon becomes a Targaryen prince, how do you think the family dynamics will be between the siblings + Rhaegar/Lyanna/Elia? Really interested in your opinion on this

Um. Bad?

aksjdjdj. The last blackfyre rebellion wasn’t that long ago not to mention Egg wasn’t too fond of Brynden so I think in general, Westeros is just incredibly wary of boy bastards who are castle raised. And even if Rhaegar does some plural marriage stuff, I do think there will be some bastard stigma still attached to Jon regardless.

Bigamy has not been done by the Targaryens since Maegor the Cruel. THE CRUEL. Not a great precedent here.

The last Targaryen who worshiped the old gods was Bloodraven, which is again, not a super great precedent to be invoking.

The Faith is in general pretty shitty about bigamy.

There were rumors that Daemon Blackfyre wanted to do some old school Valyrian stuff like marry Daenerys, take a second bride, etc., and considering all that shit went, once again, bringing to mind Daemmy B. is just a colossally bad idea

Also, “winning” in this situation means Rhaegar has at minimum killed Robert & Jon Arryn, and sent Ned to the Wall (but honestly probably offed him too), and Lyanna has walked into a situation where almost her entire family was killed by Rhaegar’s. Benjen is probably feeling some type of way. Storm’s End is probably still in a siege, because even after Robert dies, I simply cannot see Stannis giving up, because he simply has to trust that they won’t slaughter him and Renly for rebelling and he's not going to trust in that after Aerys and Rhaegar murdered so many Lords without a good reason. Jaime has killed Aerys (but protected Elia & the babies). Elia has spent months as a hostage, only for Rhaegar to come back MARRIED AGAIN with ANOTHER SON.

it’s a mess. an a tricky, unsure situation. rhaegar winning the war doesn’t mean the kingdom is back together. this one is so much different than the blackfyres or the dance because people had real, legit concerns with his father beyond succession or "but I wanna be king wahh!" rhaegar (and rhaella!) completely blow past those very rational, legitimate fears just to say “we’re in charge bitch.” it’s going to make for a very unhappy populace and a very uneasy peace. it’s going to make the situation between his children incredibly tense & toxic. So…..

I get stuck here a bit. Lyanna IS a child and not at fault for anything that happens and I will die on that hill with my head held high but the rest of the realm will not see it that way. I’m unsure if Elia would either. I would like to think they’d have a similar relationship that Naerys & Melly Blackwood had, wherein Naerys doesn’t hold it against Melly that her father sold her virginity to the King because Melly is kind to her (and probably fairly young) and Melly grows fond of the sad, sickly, sweet Queen that is just trying to survive the humiliation being heaped onto her. But this is a different situation - Lyanna isn’t a mistress, she’s a wife. An equal. Her son, like Maegor, like Aegon II, like Jacaerys, is a tiny bit of a threat to Elia’s. While fostering love & acceptance between the three is the ONLY correct and moral choice, I don’t know how likely it is. Rhaegar has a lot to deal with, and since Jon is not Visenya, I think Rhaegar probably feels a bit duped - he did everything right to have his third head of the dragon and yet he was given a boy that looks nothing like him. Lyanna probably feels very alone. Elia feels incredibly betrayed and bitter. And there’s likely a large Dornish faction at court pushing Lyanna out in this scenario because I’m not totally sure how the North is going to react to all this, so I don’t know if Benjen sends a Northern faction down South to look after her or just washes his hands of the whole thing (would Rhaegar even allow them at court after half the Starks were in open rebellion? What does court look like in the face of a justified rebellion that is snuffed out?).

Anyways, I think even best case scenario, this is a really fucked up situation that is going to lead to a lot of strife. My money is on Lyanna and Jon spending most of their time on Dragonstone or straight up holed up in their own separate apartments, away from Court and trying to lay low. I think they’d be heavily traumatized, and have terrible attachment issues probably on par with Rhaenyra/Aegon. I think Elia becomes close with Jaime because of the incredible risk he took trying to protect her, and since Tywin doesn’t sack the city, I think there’s a not unlikely chance Elia tries to bring the Martells closer to the Lannisters politically because of it. Tywin & Cersei probably won’t like that but I think Tyrion might fare a bit better if Elia sees use in befriending Jaime’s little brother and the technical heir to Casterly Rock (and i’m not saying dorne is a egalitarian, no ableism paradise - oberyn in my opinion steps over the line with tyrion - but considering the use of a wheelchair for Doran and the comments about Elia being not to healthy, I think they’re a little more accommodating of disability, which means Elia is simply pragmatic enough to look at Tyrion and see an opportunity. I think).

Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon come out of things fine. Elia looks after Viserys and Daenerys and probably they come out better. But Lyanna and Jon are in their worst case scenario here without Ned to protect them and with Jon as a threat to Aegon's claim. So what I want to say is that Elia sees this as a Naerys/Melly situation and takes Lyanna under her wing, protecting her from the whispers at court about how she's a grasping, upjumped whore who worships strange, silent gods. She would take in Jon (probably called Aemon) and encourage a closeness between the three children, comforting Jon when he feels out of place by pointing out that Rhaenys also doesn't look like a Targaryen. That Elia would caution forgiveness for Lyanna's sake, and encourage Rhaegar to have a Northern faction at court to support Lyanna - even if it's literally just a handful of ladies and knights to remind her of home - and to forgive Stannis and Renly, to name Stannis as Lord of Storm's End and make promises of peace, that Aerys had stepped over the line and Rhaegar has taken a wife from the North and a wife from Dorne to ensure that doesn't happen again, that they will call a Great Council to discuss together perhaps having a larger small council that can counteract the King.

But I think in reality it's likely that Elia attempts to freeze Lyanna and Jon out and they are both perfectly happy sticking to Dragonstone and ignoring everyone.

#it's not a scenario i think of a lot because 'lyanna and jon are stuck at the capital' is um. touching on one too many personal triggers lol #if you've seen that show maid. you will understand why. that probably also explains my tyrion feelings too actually asdljkflsd #just watch maid okay. then read the book it's amazing i love the author.#asks #anons #robert's rebellion

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lemonhemlock · 1 year

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i saw that you are a dark!dany believer. i'm not really a fan of daenerys but i don't think she'll go mad or whatever. but i'm interested to hear your points about why do you support this theory...

listen so i haven't read the books in a while because i have an academic paper i actually need to be finishing so i don't have exact quotes on hand but

you will find in dany's pov that sometimes she will start spewing mad shit like I AM DAENERYS STORMBORN DESCENDANT OF MAEGOR THE CRUEL BLOOD OF THE DRAGON I WILL RAZE CITIES TO THE GROUND AND MY ENEMIES WILL DIE SCREAMING

i was reading AGOT like a normal person and just, you know, found it strange she's having these intrusive violent thoughts ever since the first book (and i quite sympathized with daenerys in the first book)

but she never quit it with this unhinged shit and it just got worse as the series progressed. her entire shtick is having dragons and using them to burn stuff to the ground, conquering places, not knowing how to rule them, inadvertently making things worse and then leaving, only her ultimate plan is to do the same to westeros

and she is so delusional when talking abt westeros, too, no critical thinking abt rhaegar or aerys or how the rebellion was justified, robert is always "the usurper" (it's never "aerys was a tyrant and deserved to be deposed"), the starks and the lannisters are exactly the same, the people will welcome her with open arms.....

like i genuinely don't understand how people are so convinced and fanatical about this girl being a hero and about targ restoration being a good thing. you don't need a phd or to make up a complicated house-of-cards theory to see how she's a ticking bomb waiting to go off 🤷‍♀️

and i say this as a cersei stan bc it can be mad entertaining to root for a sassy bonkers queen but it's absolutely wild to me how people hate cersei so much for being a ~villain yet fall for dany's pov trap every time

i'm not even getting into her white saviour complex and how her quest for violent revolution is repeatedly thwarted by the realities that people cannot live in your glorious utopia if you do not properly envisage a system to replace the one you just tore down & make space for them in that brave new world where they can actually thrive, instead of being worse off than before

dany is basically an incompetent politician, a terrible visionary and an awful queen. and, worst off all, she is blinded by her own delusions that she is a Good, Moral Person so when she will inevitably be faced with the reality that the people of westeros do not want her or she is not the rightful queen (bc of either jon or fAegon - take ur pick, whichever theory you like best)..... i think she's gonna snap

i have no idea how that will go down, though, since it's only natural that she be involved in the fight against the others, too, somehow

#not to mention that she's barren #so what happens with the succession after she dies #another war?#also as the last targaryen (as far as she knows) with no living relatives of her blood #what's gonna happen with her dragons/monsters #who is to control them?#ask #anon #anti daenerys targaryen

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asongofstarkandtargaryen · 10 months

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If the Targaryens are irrelevant why did Robert used the fact that his paternal grandmother was a Targaryen to justify his ascension to the throne and legitimize his reign ? Why did Quentyn Martell literally tried to claim one of Daenerys’s dragons because of his Targaryen ancestors ?

They aren't irrelevant. Neither within the story nor in the author's mind.

It's not uncommon for someone who creates a new ruling dynasty to use their connection to the previous ruling dynasty to strengthen their claim. We have plenty of historical examples like the War of Roses which is a major inspiration for asoiaf. Robert, for someone who preaches how much he detest Targaryens, has used his link to the family to further justify his claim.

Martells are a total different case than him because they don't dislike Targaryens. They were on the same side during Robert's rebellion and Doran Martell tries his hardest to make a marriage alliance with House Targaryen to further strengthen their bonds. They take pride in their Targaryen inheritance.

An interesting case of Targs not being irrelevant is when the Northerners proclaim Robb King in the North. Despite the fact that House Targaryen plays no longer an active role in westerosi politics, they still remember and mention that their previous Kings were the Targaryens.

It was the dragons we married and the dragons are all dead!

AGOT, CATELYN XI

As for the author, if he considered the Targaryens irrelevant he wouldn't give this house the most detailed history. Neither he would make two of the protagonists being Targaryen.

#asoiaf ask #house Targaryen #valyrianscrolls #a post of ice and fire

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hamliet · 1 year

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Rereading A Storm of Swords

In light of my recent Fire & Blood reread, I decided to reread the whole ASOIAF series because, well, why not. Below are some general observations/musings on the themes, character arcs, alchemy, and foreshadowing. I’ll do this for the others as well. It’s not really a meta proper, so much as observations and thoughts.

Thoughts on A Game of Thrones here and A Clash of Kings here.

Themes

Duty vs Love

Again, Martin contrasts duty and love. Robb forgives Catelyn for freeing Jaime because "what you did, I know you did for love... Love's not always wise."

Meanwhile, Tywin treats his children as pawns, literally trying to marry them again and telling them they'll do what he tells them because of duty:

"Go," their father said. "We shall talk again after you have composed yourself. Remember your duty."

And Brienne defends Robert by telling Jaime that his rebellion is justified because of love:

"Why is it that no one names Robert oathbreaker? He tore the realm apart, yet I am the one with shit for honor." "Robert did all he did for love."

I don't really have a ton new to say that I didn't already say in my ACOK's post, but again, Martin doesn't seem to see duty/honor and love as actual opposites, but instead suggests there's a balance to be struck. The idea that duty at its most extreme transforms people into things, however, is something I'll talk about more later.

Individuality vs Ideas

Part of the reason ASOAIF is so complex is that it's deconstructing the idea that enemies and villains and "red shirts" are just empty ideas rather than living, breathing people. We have this idea throughout all books, but it's emphasized starting in ASOS:

"Enough." The Hound's face was tight with anger. "You're making noise. These names mean nothing. Who were they?" "People," said Lord Beric. "People great and small, young and old. Good people and bad people, who died on the points of Lannister spears or saw their bellies opened by Lannister swords.

Then we have Jon starting to empathize with the wildlings:

He did not want their friendship, any more than he wanted Ygritte's love. And yet . . . the Thenns spoke the Old Tongue and seldom talked to Jon at all, but it was different with Jarl's raiders, the men who'd climbed the Wall. Jon was coming to know them despite himself: gaunt, quiet Errok and gregarious Grigg the Goat, the boys Quort and Bodger, Hempen Dan the ropemaker. The worst of the lot was Del, a horsefaced youth near Jon's own age, who would talk dreamily of this wildling girl he meant to steal. "She's lucky, like your Ygritte. She's kissed by fire."

Martin also uses this "red shirts" idea to open and close the book in the prologue and epilogue. Chett and Merritt aren't particularly sympathetic characters on the outset, but from being in their mind, even if we see Chett as an incel-esque character and Merritt as a coward, we feel their fear and hopes and self-loathing too. It's impossible not to see them as human, and when they realize they're going to die... well. It leaves us with a strange feeling.

We Are All Just Songs

"We're all just songs in the end. If we are lucky." Oh look, we've got a title drop here! A title drop!

ASOIAF is playing with the ideas of stories. For example, characters like Sansa adore simplistic stories of courtly romances. Arya enjoys badass historical stories. Bran enjoys ghost stories. Daenerys enjoys stories about her family's history.

Well, any wonder each of their stories are deconstructing these ideas?

But Martin isn't saying stories are stupid or bad. If anything, he's saying we need stories. Stories are the ideals that help light our way through messy reality.

True Kings, True Knights

Throughout the first few books, we have Sansa telling us "he was no true knight" about the vile people serving Joffrey. The point isn't to mock Sansa, but instead to deconstruct her ideals. Through Sansa's pure-hearted belief and compassion, even for people like the Hound, they start to change and become more and more knightly.

Please note I'm not saying this is okay or whatever, just saying there is some romantic coding between them even when they're apart in the books. Should Sandor return and meet Sansa again, I would expect it to be a textbook chivalric romance:

a highly conventionalized medieval tradition of love between a knight and a married noblewoman, first developed by the troubadours of southern France and extensively employed in European literature of the time. The love of the knight for his lady was regarded as an ennobling passion and the relationship was typically unconsummated.

The "no true knight" mantra is also picked up this book by Brienne, who inspires similar change in Jaime. It's also repeated by Daenerys, with a twist:

"Some kings make themselves. Robert did." "He was no true king," Dany said scornfully. "He did no justice. Justice . . . that's what kings are for."

Again, I highly doubt we're going for a scorched earth burned ashes deconstruction here, but instead digging to the heart of what this means. What does it mean to be a just ruler for Daenerys? As much as she needs to mature and accept worser parts of herself, much like Sansa and Brienne, her general ideals are not themselves wrong, even if their application in the real world is messier than in songs.

Protecting the Innocent:

We have this theme throughout the story: those who protect the innocent are heroes. We even have this in the lore of the story itself, such as the Knight of the Laughing Tree (who is clearly Lyanna, and the incident clearly jumpstarted her relationship with Rhaegar).

Also, can't believe I have to say this, but in ASOIAF, hurting kids iz bad. It's particularly Bad. It's Bad Bad. (Nota Bene: I do not get how the House of the Dragon fans and even its actors do not get this very basic principle in ASOIAF). In earlier books, we had Ned full of regret for the deaths of Rhaegar's children and fear that Robert would hurt Cersei's. Now in ASOS, Martin hits us with this idea in almost every storyline.

Robb loses a lot of his army to punish someone who murdered two children in revenge for his own children. Oh look, it's almost like ASOIAF doesn't condone "an eye for an eye, a son for a son":

"They died," said Rickard Karstark, yielding no inch of ground. "The Kingslayer cut them down. These two were of his ilk. Only blood can pay for blood." "The blood of children?" Robb pointed at the corpses. "How old were they? Twelve, thirteen? Squires."

Then we have Daenerys and the Unsullied and the children crucified on the way to Meereen. The truly evil idea is seeing kids as a weakness, an idea that makes Dany "feel faint":

"To win his spiked cap, an Unsullied must go to the slave marts with a silver mark, find some wailing newborn, and kill it before its mother's eyes. In this way, we make certain that there is no weakness left in them."

Plus, it's stated directly:

Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children."

Then we have Melisandre arguing that hurting children even for the best of intentions is the right thing to do, but the framing of this--through Davos' eyes--tells us this is completely wrong. Even if you lose your army and your life like Robb. Even if you lose everything. It's. Not. Worth. It.

The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his king's blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born.

(Clearly, this also foreshadows the demise of Shireen.)

Again, Davos, one of the most moral characters in this story, tells us directly what we should think:

"...what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" "Everything," said Davos, softly.

This storyline also seems to be combined with Nissa Nissa, even though Nissa Nissa is an adult and not a child, because Azor Ahai has to sacrifice what he loves most. Stannis will sacrifice Shireen, his child, because she's what he loves most, but it won't work. I'd suggest that the idea is less "Stannis just wasn't chosen" and more "don't kill the innocent."

If there is a sacrifice to defeat the Others, I 100% do not see a Nissa Nissa situation happening, but instead a willing self-sacrifice.

Look Back! Look Back!

All of the characters have to look back if they are to go forward, as Daenerys is reminded by Quaithe. The problem is no one's doing that in their quest to look ahead.

Tyrion: "Some part of him had hoped for less indifference. Had hoped, he jeered bitterly, but now you know better, dwarf. Shae is all the love you're ever like to have". He has to face what happened with Tysha, to face the fact that he participated in that and became her monster, to ever be a better man.

Arya needs to face herself as a Stark and as someone who wants a family even more than she thinks she wants to be powerful: "Jaqen was gone, though. He'd left her. Hot Pie left me too, and now Gendry is leaving. Lommy had died, Yoren had died, Syrio Forel had died, even her father had died, and Jaqen had given her a stupid iron penny and vanished."

And Daenerys has to face her father's legacy, and likely will when she accidentally sets off Dear Old Dad's wildfyre in King's Landing: "If she was not her father's daughter, who was she?" This is the central question of Daenerys' arc. Her identity is in her status as the last living Targaryen. The question is whether she wants to continue the Targaryen legacy of madness and slavery, or destroy it (which she's doing).

Foreshadowing

Arya

When thinking of the original outline Martin somewhat scrapped and that Arya/Jon idea, I do wonder if this is a leftover idea meant to tell us something about Arya's future (namely, that Gendry is likely her love interest instead of Jon):

Arya gave Gendry a sideways look. He said it with me, like Jon used to do, back in Winterfell. She missed Jon Snow the most of all her brothers.

Tyrion

Well, Tywin says this at the start to Tyrion:

You are done with whores. The next one I find in your bed, I'll hang.

The irony is Tywin won't find a whore in Tyrion's bed. Instead, Tyrion will find that precise whore, Shae, in his father's bed. And he "hangs" her by strangling her with that necklace.

Jon

Jon "had slain the wildling Orell, but some part of the man remained within the eagle." This is pretty likely foreshadowing for Jon remaining in Ghost for a bit before he's resurrected.

Jon and Daenerys

The story has a middle section somewhat littered with romantic longings and first loves. Daenerys is torn about Jorah, whom she doesn't love like that, and has a crush on Daario. She also sleeps with Irri. Arya and Gendry begin to show attraction. Jaime and Brienne. Jon and Ygritte. But here are some lines between Jon and Ygritte that hint at his romantic future:

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?" "Longspear's not your brother." "He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow..."

"Then I'd push him in a stream or throw a bucket o' water on him. Anyhow, men shouldn't smell sweet like flowers." "What's wrong with flowers?"

Lol well at least she's his aunt?

Jon's already been strongly associated with blue roses, so this hints that Ygritte isn't a perfect match for him. She's kissed by fire, but not actually fire and air herself, like Dany is. Daenerys also liked the fact that the blue rose growing in a chink of ice at the wall "smell[ed] sweetly."

Lastly:

A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall.

Again, I feel like this might be foreshadowing for Dany and Jon having a child someday. The one thing that makes me skeptical and wondering if the child may be more metaphorical is the timeline--whether or not there's enough time for them to bear a child and save the world from the Others. That said, there's plenty of foreshadowing for it, so...

Sansa

The White Ghost clearly predicts Sansa's hairnet's role in Joffrey's assassination, as well as offers a prophecy of Sansa slaying a giant at, a giant who tries to destroy Winterfell. This may indicate Sansa literally kills a giant at some point, or it might be metaphorical. The one who needs to be slain by Sansa is Littlefinger, but he hasn't really been associated with giant imagery yet just kidding @isammy7936 pointed out the obvious: that the Baelish family crest is the Titan of Braavos.

There's a followup scene of Sansa tearing Robert Arryn's doll that destroyed Winterfell later in the book, in the presence of Littlefinger who was helping her build it. I don't doubt that Littlefinger will help Sansa claim the North at some point, but I also see him trying to destroy the Starks.

Jaime

Oh, Jaime.

I cannot die while Cersei lives, he told himself. We will die together as we were born together.

When I reach King's Landing I'll have a new hand forged, a golden hand, and one day I'll use it to rip out Vargo Hoat's throat.

Smells like foreshadowing to me, although I don't think it will be Vargo Hoat's throat he rips out, but Cersei's he strangles.

Alchemy

Daenerys and Red

Continuing with Dany's theme of becoming red, sulfur, fire and air, the first city she takes is Astapor, a red city:

In the center of the Plaza of Pride stood a red brick fountain whose waters smelled of brimstone, and in the center of the fountain a monstrous harpy made of hammered bronze... Even through the thickness of her sandals, she could feel the warmth of the red bricks underfoot.

The other red association I've seen is her dream that she is Rhaegar fighting the Others at the Trident. Most seem to think the battle against the others will end at Winterfell, which I tend to agree with. However, the fact that the final climax should involve red at some point makes me wonder, because this takes place specifically at the Red Fork of the Trident.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Then again, fire is certain to be involved in defeating the Others, so it might well be red enough with that.

Bran and White

To continue the Starks are water and earth and white idea, Bran has this quote:

Moonlight painted the wet woods in shades of silver and turned the grey peaks white. Owls hooted through the dark and flew silently between the pines, while pale goats moved along the mountainsides.

Sansa and White

When I reread AGOT, I did take note that Sansa was given a red rose by Ser Loras, rather than the white he gave other girls. But in ASOS, Sansa talks to Loras about that very moment, and the point of this conversation is to reveal how little it meant to Loras. He gave her a red rose because he grabbed a red rose first, not because it meant anything. Seems like a meta commentary.

Arya and White/Water

When Arya dresses like a girl for the first time again, she wears something "lilac-colored, and decorated with little baby pearls."

Furthermore, Arya routinely stops to give water to the dying, even the executed. Even when people, like the Hound, ask for wine (red), she gives them water.

Brienne and Jaime

For Jaime and Brienne, there's very little I can say about their alchemical weddings that the fabulous @argentvive hasn't covered. The first is the dual in the creek, which is with swords and violent, while the second is in the bath. The first one is also littered with romantic and sexual imagery, and is frankly what I'd call metaphorical sex:

No sooner did she turn one cut than the next was upon her. The swords kissed and sprang apart and kissed again. Jaime's blood was singing. This was what he was meant for; he never felt so alive as when he was fighting, with death balanced on every stroke... He laughed a ragged, breathless laugh. "Come on, come on, my sweetling, the music's still playing. Might I have this dance, my lady?" ... She looks as if they caught us fucking instead of fighting.

Brienne is also marked as water/earth, and white, while Jaime is red and fire. Jaime tells Brienne:

Think of Tarth, mountains and seas, pools, waterfalls, whatever you have on your Sapphire Isle, think . . .

Jaime slid into the offered seat quickly, so Bolton could not see how weak he was. "White is for Starks. I'll drink red like a good Lannister." " "I would prefer water," said Brienne. "Elmar, the red for Ser Jaime, water for the Lady Brienne..."

But after their second chemical wedding in the baths, they take on each other's qualities much more. Jaime dons his white cloak, lives in the white tower, and gives Brienne his Valyrian steel sword, which is colored with Lannister red (and is also a phallic symbol).

Arya and Gendry

Arya and Gendry's scenes become slightly romantically charged in this book. After she dresses like a girl, this conversation takes place.

Gendry put the hammer down and looked at her. "You look different now. Like a proper little girl." "I look like an oak tree, with all these stupid acorns." "Nice, though. A nice oak tree." He stepped closer, and sniffed at her. "You even smell nice for a change."

They then fight in a scene that parallels the Brienne and Jaime wrestling scene above.

Reconciling Opposites:

Another idea in this book spoken of by multiple characters is that of reconciling opposites. That's what alchemy is fundamentally concerned with. Meera states that hate and love are essentially two sides of the same coin. Barristan says greatness and madness are the same. Melisande says:

"The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

Again, George has pretty much confirmed Dany and Jon are the Song of Ice and Fire, so they need to unite.

Tyrion

One thing I wonder about is the use of homonculus (sometimes represented as a dwarf) and a rebis in alchemy, and whether or not Tyrion is intended to be a portrayal of either or both or neither. Homonculi are sometimes called "monsters", a name Tyrion bitterly embraces by the end of the book. Oberyn says that after Tyrion's birth, there were rumors he had the genitalia of male and female, but Tyrion didn't. At the same time, he does have odd features like two different colored eyes, etc that might hint at him being seen as an alchemical rebis. I don't know.

Other Thoughts

Tyrion as a Targaryen

Not only do I think it doesn't thematically work to have Tyrion as a Targaryen, but I think the line used at the end of this book as evidence ("You . . . you are no . . . no son of mine") strongly indicates the opposite--that Tyrion is indeed his father's son. You see, Tywin literally says the exact same sentiment only a few chapters earlier to Jaime:

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. "Father . . . " he began.

"You are not my son." Lord Tywin turned his face away. "You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty."

If people want to argue the Tyrion Targaryen angle, this is not really evidence itself.

Tyrion the Monster

Tyrion's the first of the Main Six to dive off the cliff, starting at the end of this book where he lies to Jaime to tell him he killed Joffrey, desperate to hurt Jaime the same way he's hurting. He's enraged he literally saved the city and no one cares; they all just want him dead for his disability, for things he cannot help. He can't even find love because of it, and he craves love. So he finally decides to be the monster they think he is.

Insofar as the other two likely heads of the dragon go... I think they'll take similar approaches to their dark spirals. We see hints of it this book. Daenerys won't look back until confronted with it, so she'll probably be like "let me prove myself with fire and blood" (actually, this is exactly what her ADWD arc leads to her deciding to do). Jon notes the fact that people assume bastards are craven and scheming, and I do not doubt that is exactly what Jon will become after he's resurrected: he's probably going to ditch the Wall, the fight, and everything for a time.

Jeyne Westerling

Poor Jeyne. Despite her mother's machinations to get Jeyne to seduce Robb, I do believe she and Robb genuinely loved each other--as much as anyone could. Their story seems to be a deconstruction of the "love at first sight" trope, wherein they love each other but don't entirely know each other, and have to get used to each other as people rather than as just objects of love. Hence, Jeyne turning to Catelyn for advice. Which frankly was a wise thing to do :'')

The True Fight

Davos reminds Stannis what the true fight is: up north, fighting the Others. I'm sorry but I can't see the books ending with the show's ending, where the true fight is against humans. No, this isn't thematically contradictory with the idea that the story is about humanity or the human heart against itself; the opposite in fact.

The true fight all humans face is against death, and what we do to live in the face of the reality that we're all going to die.

#daenerys targaryen #jonerys #jon snow #alchemy #a storm of swords #asos meta #asoiaf meta #asoiaf #davos seaworth #stannis baratheon #jeyne westerling #jaime lannister #braime #brienne of tarth #sansa stark #tyrion lannister #arya stark #gendry waters #sandor clegane

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