#asos meta

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

How many asoiaf leaders we see being self reflecting?

Meanwhile Dany, the night before she offers freedom to all Unsullied, she reflects about Eroeh's fate and even feels guilty about her tragic end.

This girl was raped when Dany rescued her and added her to her personal slaves in order to offer her protection ( remember, back when Dany was married to Drogo, she didn't have the authority to free a slave herself).

Unfortunately for Eroeh, her sad fate didn't stop there. Because after Khal Drogo was dead and Dany was no longer considered a Khaleesi by most of his khalasar, Eroeh's rapist return to abuse and kill the girl.

Dany was by no means responsible to what happened to Eroeh because she was unconscious ( after giving a difficult birth) when the girl met her cruel end by Khal Mago.

However, that doesn't stop Dany from feeling she failed the girl. Because Dany believes that a ruler's duty is to protect their subjects.

Dany was once also a helpless child in need of protection from her brother - king. But instead all she got was his cruelty and abuse.

Dany knows first hand how someone can suffer under a merciless King. Combine on that the guilt she feels for the fate of a girl she couldn't possible change and it's no wonder that she comes to the conclusion that " justice...is what kings are for".

Those aren't pretty words coming out of a mouth of a pampered and naive girl playing the Messiah. Those are the words of a girl who has sold by her Brother - King as a bride-slave, a girl who has suffered things other Ruler candidates couldn't possibly imagine, a girl who is going to live by those words she said. The same teenage girl offers freedom and justice to all the Unsullied slaves the next morning.

#daenerys targaryen #asoiaf meta #daenerys meta #house Targaryen #valyrianscrolls #astapor #asos #asos meta

[hamliet]

Rereading A Storm of Swords

In light of my recent Fire & Blood reread, I decided to reread the whole ASOIAF series because, well, why not. Below are some general observations/musings on the themes, character arcs, alchemy, and foreshadowing. I’ll do this for the others as well. It’s not really a meta proper, so much as observations and thoughts.

Thoughts on A Game of Thrones here and A Clash of Kings here.

Themes

Duty vs Love

Again, Martin contrasts duty and love. Robb forgives Catelyn for freeing Jaime because "what you did, I know you did for love... Love's not always wise."

Meanwhile, Tywin treats his children as pawns, literally trying to marry them again and telling them they'll do what he tells them because of duty:

"Go," their father said. "We shall talk again after you have composed yourself. Remember your duty."

And Brienne defends Robert by telling Jaime that his rebellion is justified because of love:

"Why is it that no one names Robert oathbreaker? He tore the realm apart, yet I am the one with shit for honor." "Robert did all he did for love."

I don't really have a ton new to say that I didn't already say in my ACOK's post, but again, Martin doesn't seem to see duty/honor and love as actual opposites, but instead suggests there's a balance to be struck. The idea that duty at its most extreme transforms people into things, however, is something I'll talk about more later.

Individuality vs Ideas

Part of the reason ASOAIF is so complex is that it's deconstructing the idea that enemies and villains and "red shirts" are just empty ideas rather than living, breathing people. We have this idea throughout all books, but it's emphasized starting in ASOS:

"Enough." The Hound's face was tight with anger. "You're making noise. These names mean nothing. Who were they?" "People," said Lord Beric. "People great and small, young and old. Good people and bad people, who died on the points of Lannister spears or saw their bellies opened by Lannister swords.

Then we have Jon starting to empathize with the wildlings:

He did not want their friendship, any more than he wanted Ygritte's love. And yet . . . the Thenns spoke the Old Tongue and seldom talked to Jon at all, but it was different with Jarl's raiders, the men who'd climbed the Wall. Jon was coming to know them despite himself: gaunt, quiet Errok and gregarious Grigg the Goat, the boys Quort and Bodger, Hempen Dan the ropemaker. The worst of the lot was Del, a horsefaced youth near Jon's own age, who would talk dreamily of this wildling girl he meant to steal. "She's lucky, like your Ygritte. She's kissed by fire."

Martin also uses this "red shirts" idea to open and close the book in the prologue and epilogue. Chett and Merritt aren't particularly sympathetic characters on the outset, but from being in their mind, even if we see Chett as an incel-esque character and Merritt as a coward, we feel their fear and hopes and self-loathing too. It's impossible not to see them as human, and when they realize they're going to die... well. It leaves us with a strange feeling.

We Are All Just Songs

"We're all just songs in the end. If we are lucky." Oh look, we've got a title drop here! A title drop!

ASOIAF is playing with the ideas of stories. For example, characters like Sansa adore simplistic stories of courtly romances. Arya enjoys badass historical stories. Bran enjoys ghost stories. Daenerys enjoys stories about her family's history.

Well, any wonder each of their stories are deconstructing these ideas?

But Martin isn't saying stories are stupid or bad. If anything, he's saying we need stories. Stories are the ideals that help light our way through messy reality.

True Kings, True Knights

Throughout the first few books, we have Sansa telling us "he was no true knight" about the vile people serving Joffrey. The point isn't to mock Sansa, but instead to deconstruct her ideals. Through Sansa's pure-hearted belief and compassion, even for people like the Hound, they start to change and become more and more knightly.

Please note I'm not saying this is okay or whatever, just saying there is some romantic coding between them even when they're apart in the books. Should Sandor return and meet Sansa again, I would expect it to be a textbook chivalric romance:

a highly conventionalized medieval tradition of love between a knight and a married noblewoman, first developed by the troubadours of southern France and extensively employed in European literature of the time. The love of the knight for his lady was regarded as an ennobling passion and the relationship was typically unconsummated.

The "no true knight" mantra is also picked up this book by Brienne, who inspires similar change in Jaime. It's also repeated by Daenerys, with a twist:

"Some kings make themselves. Robert did." "He was no true king," Dany said scornfully. "He did no justice. Justice . . . that's what kings are for."

Again, I highly doubt we're going for a scorched earth burned ashes deconstruction here, but instead digging to the heart of what this means. What does it mean to be a just ruler for Daenerys? As much as she needs to mature and accept worser parts of herself, much like Sansa and Brienne, her general ideals are not themselves wrong, even if their application in the real world is messier than in songs.

Protecting the Innocent:

We have this theme throughout the story: those who protect the innocent are heroes. We even have this in the lore of the story itself, such as the Knight of the Laughing Tree (who is clearly Lyanna, and the incident clearly jumpstarted her relationship with Rhaegar).

Also, can't believe I have to say this, but in ASOIAF, hurting kids iz bad. It's particularly Bad. It's Bad Bad. (Nota Bene: I do not get how the House of the Dragon fans and even its actors do not get this very basic principle in ASOIAF). In earlier books, we had Ned full of regret for the deaths of Rhaegar's children and fear that Robert would hurt Cersei's. Now in ASOS, Martin hits us with this idea in almost every storyline.

Robb loses a lot of his army to punish someone who murdered two children in revenge for his own children. Oh look, it's almost like ASOIAF doesn't condone "an eye for an eye, a son for a son":

"They died," said Rickard Karstark, yielding no inch of ground. "The Kingslayer cut them down. These two were of his ilk. Only blood can pay for blood." "The blood of children?" Robb pointed at the corpses. "How old were they? Twelve, thirteen? Squires."

Then we have Daenerys and the Unsullied and the children crucified on the way to Meereen. The truly evil idea is seeing kids as a weakness, an idea that makes Dany "feel faint":

"To win his spiked cap, an Unsullied must go to the slave marts with a silver mark, find some wailing newborn, and kill it before its mother's eyes. In this way, we make certain that there is no weakness left in them."

Plus, it's stated directly:

Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children."

Then we have Melisandre arguing that hurting children even for the best of intentions is the right thing to do, but the framing of this--through Davos' eyes--tells us this is completely wrong. Even if you lose your army and your life like Robb. Even if you lose everything. It's. Not. Worth. It.

The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his king's blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born.

(Clearly, this also foreshadows the demise of Shireen.)

Again, Davos, one of the most moral characters in this story, tells us directly what we should think:

"...what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" "Everything," said Davos, softly.

This storyline also seems to be combined with Nissa Nissa, even though Nissa Nissa is an adult and not a child, because Azor Ahai has to sacrifice what he loves most. Stannis will sacrifice Shireen, his child, because she's what he loves most, but it won't work. I'd suggest that the idea is less "Stannis just wasn't chosen" and more "don't kill the innocent."

If there is a sacrifice to defeat the Others, I 100% do not see a Nissa Nissa situation happening, but instead a willing self-sacrifice.

Look Back! Look Back!

All of the characters have to look back if they are to go forward, as Daenerys is reminded by Quaithe. The problem is no one's doing that in their quest to look ahead.

Tyrion: "Some part of him had hoped for less indifference. Had hoped, he jeered bitterly, but now you know better, dwarf. Shae is all the love you're ever like to have". He has to face what happened with Tysha, to face the fact that he participated in that and became her monster, to ever be a better man.

Arya needs to face herself as a Stark and as someone who wants a family even more than she thinks she wants to be powerful: "Jaqen was gone, though. He'd left her. Hot Pie left me too, and now Gendry is leaving. Lommy had died, Yoren had died, Syrio Forel had died, even her father had died, and Jaqen had given her a stupid iron penny and vanished."

And Daenerys has to face her father's legacy, and likely will when she accidentally sets off Dear Old Dad's wildfyre in King's Landing: "If she was not her father's daughter, who was she?" This is the central question of Daenerys' arc. Her identity is in her status as the last living Targaryen. The question is whether she wants to continue the Targaryen legacy of madness and slavery, or destroy it (which she's doing).

Foreshadowing

Arya

When thinking of the original outline Martin somewhat scrapped and that Arya/Jon idea, I do wonder if this is a leftover idea meant to tell us something about Arya's future (namely, that Gendry is likely her love interest instead of Jon):

Arya gave Gendry a sideways look. He said it with me, like Jon used to do, back in Winterfell. She missed Jon Snow the most of all her brothers.

Tyrion

Well, Tywin says this at the start to Tyrion: 

You are done with whores. The next one I find in your bed, I'll hang.

The irony is Tywin won't find a whore in Tyrion's bed. Instead, Tyrion will find that precise whore, Shae, in his father's bed. And he "hangs" her by strangling her with that necklace.

Jon

Jon "had slain the wildling Orell, but some part of the man remained within the eagle." This is pretty likely foreshadowing for Jon remaining in Ghost for a bit before he's resurrected.

Jon and Daenerys

The story has a middle section somewhat littered with romantic longings and first loves. Daenerys is torn about Jorah, whom she doesn't love like that, and has a crush on Daario. She also sleeps with Irri. Arya and Gendry begin to show attraction. Jaime and Brienne. Jon and Ygritte. But here are some lines between Jon and Ygritte that hint at his romantic future:

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?" "Longspear's not your brother." "He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow..."

"Then I'd push him in a stream or throw a bucket o' water on him. Anyhow, men shouldn't smell sweet like flowers." "What's wrong with flowers?"

Lol well at least she's his aunt?

Jon's already been strongly associated with blue roses, so this hints that Ygritte isn't a perfect match for him. She's kissed by fire, but not actually fire and air herself, like Dany is. Daenerys also liked the fact that the blue rose growing in a chink of ice at the wall "smell[ed] sweetly."

Lastly:

 A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall.

Again, I feel like this might be foreshadowing for Dany and Jon having a child someday. The one thing that makes me skeptical and wondering if the child may be more metaphorical is the timeline--whether or not there's enough time for them to bear a child and save the world from the Others. That said, there's plenty of foreshadowing for it, so...

Sansa

The White Ghost clearly predicts Sansa's hairnet's role in Joffrey's assassination, as well as offers a prophecy of Sansa slaying a giant at, a giant who tries to destroy Winterfell. This may indicate Sansa literally kills a giant at some point, or it might be metaphorical. The one who needs to be slain by Sansa is Littlefinger, but he hasn't really been associated with giant imagery yet just kidding @isammy7936 pointed out the obvious: that the Baelish family crest is the Titan of Braavos.

There's a followup scene of Sansa tearing Robert Arryn's doll that destroyed Winterfell later in the book, in the presence of Littlefinger who was helping her build it. I don't doubt that Littlefinger will help Sansa claim the North at some point, but I also see him trying to destroy the Starks.

Jaime

Oh, Jaime.

I cannot die while Cersei lives, he told himself. We will die together as we were born together.

When I reach King's Landing I'll have a new hand forged, a golden hand, and one day I'll use it to rip out Vargo Hoat's throat.

Smells like foreshadowing to me, although I don't think it will be Vargo Hoat's throat he rips out, but Cersei's he strangles.

Alchemy

Daenerys and Red

Continuing with Dany's theme of becoming red, sulfur, fire and air, the first city she takes is Astapor, a red city:

In the center of the Plaza of Pride stood a red brick fountain whose waters smelled of brimstone, and in the center of the fountain a monstrous harpy made of hammered bronze... Even through the thickness of her sandals, she could feel the warmth of the red bricks underfoot. 

The other red association I've seen is her dream that she is Rhaegar fighting the Others at the Trident. Most seem to think the battle against the others will end at Winterfell, which I tend to agree with. However, the fact that the final climax should involve red at some point makes me wonder, because this takes place specifically at the Red Fork of the Trident.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Then again, fire is certain to be involved in defeating the Others, so it might well be red enough with that.

Bran and White

To continue the Starks are water and earth and white idea, Bran has this quote:

Moonlight painted the wet woods in shades of silver and turned the grey peaks white. Owls hooted through the dark and flew silently between the pines, while pale goats moved along the mountainsides.

Sansa and White

When I reread AGOT, I did take note that Sansa was given a red rose by Ser Loras, rather than the white he gave other girls. But in ASOS, Sansa talks to Loras about that very moment, and the point of this conversation is to reveal how little it meant to Loras. He gave her a red rose because he grabbed a red rose first, not because it meant anything. Seems like a meta commentary.

Arya and White/Water

When Arya dresses like a girl for the first time again, she wears something "lilac-colored, and decorated with little baby pearls."

Furthermore, Arya routinely stops to give water to the dying, even the executed. Even when people, like the Hound, ask for wine (red), she gives them water.

Brienne and Jaime

For Jaime and Brienne, there's very little I can say about their alchemical weddings that the fabulous @argentvive hasn't covered. The first is the dual in the creek, which is with swords and violent, while the second is in the bath. The first one is also littered with romantic and sexual imagery, and is frankly what I'd call metaphorical sex:

No sooner did she turn one cut than the next was upon her. The swords kissed and sprang apart and kissed again. Jaime's blood was singing. This was what he was meant for; he never felt so alive as when he was fighting, with death balanced on every stroke... He laughed a ragged, breathless laugh. "Come on, come on, my sweetling, the music's still playing. Might I have this dance, my lady?" ... She looks as if they caught us fucking instead of fighting.

Brienne is also marked as water/earth, and white, while Jaime is red and fire. Jaime tells Brienne:

Think of Tarth, mountains and seas, pools, waterfalls, whatever you have on your Sapphire Isle, think . . . 

Jaime slid into the offered seat quickly, so Bolton could not see how weak he was. "White is for Starks. I'll drink red like a good Lannister." " "I would prefer water," said Brienne. "Elmar, the red for Ser Jaime, water for the Lady Brienne..."

But after their second chemical wedding in the baths, they take on each other's qualities much more. Jaime dons his white cloak, lives in the white tower, and gives Brienne his Valyrian steel sword, which is colored with Lannister red (and is also a phallic symbol).

Arya and Gendry

Arya and Gendry's scenes become slightly romantically charged in this book. After she dresses like a girl, this conversation takes place.

Gendry put the hammer down and looked at her. "You look different now. Like a proper little girl." "I look like an oak tree, with all these stupid acorns." "Nice, though. A nice oak tree." He stepped closer, and sniffed at her. "You even smell nice for a change."

They then fight in a scene that parallels the Brienne and Jaime wrestling scene above.

Reconciling Opposites:

Another idea in this book spoken of by multiple characters is that of reconciling opposites. That's what alchemy is fundamentally concerned with. Meera states that hate and love are essentially two sides of the same coin. Barristan says greatness and madness are the same. Melisande says:

"The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

Again, George has pretty much confirmed Dany and Jon are the Song of Ice and Fire, so they need to unite.

Tyrion

One thing I wonder about is the use of homonculus (sometimes represented as a dwarf) and a rebis in alchemy, and whether or not Tyrion is intended to be a portrayal of either or both or neither. Homonculi are sometimes called "monsters", a name Tyrion bitterly embraces by the end of the book. Oberyn says that after Tyrion's birth, there were rumors he had the genitalia of male and female, but Tyrion didn't. At the same time, he does have odd features like two different colored eyes, etc that might hint at him being seen as an alchemical rebis. I don't know.

Other Thoughts

Tyrion as a Targaryen

Not only do I think it doesn't thematically work to have Tyrion as a Targaryen, but I think the line used at the end of this book as evidence ("You . . . you are no . . . no son of mine") strongly indicates the opposite--that Tyrion is indeed his father's son. You see, Tywin literally says the exact same sentiment only a few chapters earlier to Jaime:

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. "Father . . . " he began.

"You are not my son." Lord Tywin turned his face away. "You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty."

If people want to argue the Tyrion Targaryen angle, this is not really evidence itself.

Tyrion the Monster

Tyrion's the first of the Main Six to dive off the cliff, starting at the end of this book where he lies to Jaime to tell him he killed Joffrey, desperate to hurt Jaime the same way he's hurting. He's enraged he literally saved the city and no one cares; they all just want him dead for his disability, for things he cannot help. He can't even find love because of it, and he craves love. So he finally decides to be the monster they think he is.

Insofar as the other two likely heads of the dragon go... I think they'll take similar approaches to their dark spirals. We see hints of it this book. Daenerys won't look back until confronted with it, so she'll probably be like "let me prove myself with fire and blood" (actually, this is exactly what her ADWD arc leads to her deciding to do). Jon notes the fact that people assume bastards are craven and scheming, and I do not doubt that is exactly what Jon will become after he's resurrected: he's probably going to ditch the Wall, the fight, and everything for a time.

Jeyne Westerling

Poor Jeyne. Despite her mother's machinations to get Jeyne to seduce Robb, I do believe she and Robb genuinely loved each other--as much as anyone could. Their story seems to be a deconstruction of the "love at first sight" trope, wherein they love each other but don't entirely know each other, and have to get used to each other as people rather than as just objects of love. Hence, Jeyne turning to Catelyn for advice. Which frankly was a wise thing to do :'')

The True Fight

Davos reminds Stannis what the true fight is: up north, fighting the Others. I'm sorry but I can't see the books ending with the show's ending, where the true fight is against humans. No, this isn't thematically contradictory with the idea that the story is about humanity or the human heart against itself; the opposite in fact.

The true fight all humans face is against death, and what we do to live in the face of the reality that we're all going to die.

#daenerys targaryen #jonerys #jon snow #alchemy #a storm of swords #asos meta #asoiaf meta #asoiaf #davos seaworth #stannis baratheon #jeyne westerling #jaime lannister #braime #brienne of tarth #sansa stark #tyrion lannister #arya stark #gendry waters #sandor clegane

[stuckasmain]

Hal’s deactivation is hard hitting across both the movie and the book. It’s been dissected a million times and likely more in the future. Most recently in the way of Hal having little agency…he has no arms to ward off his attacker or means of defense (but I’d argue killing Frank and the others was his defense, especially in the movie when his reasoning is more ambiguous). I do love the idea this is following and hope to see more of it in the future, however the way I’m approaching it is with a more romantic lense.

The entire lobotomy sequence is heart wrenching and almost worse in the novel purely because we get to see Dave’s thoughts on it. Not only do we hear Hal’s frightened pleas for his life but we get the ‘attacker’ perspective and it’s… an act of mercy.

While there is the themes of survival and violence this is approached with a softer touch. It’s much more that he is putting Hal out of his misery. Ending his suffering. Not putting him down like an animal but rather the harsh decision faced when one has an ill/dying lover.

“The only answer was to cut out the higher centers of this sick but brilliant brain, and to leave the purely automatic regulating systems in operation” 155

After the job is done Dave forgives Hal incredibly quickly once all of the facts are in. He can quickly pull together the mental break that must’ve happened and recognizes that Hal had the very human ‘fight or flight’ response to what he had been through. He had always been treated like a sixth crew member, respected and talked to like anyone else but it is only “post Mortem” that Dave recognizes how human Hal was and that true emotion might be more than theorizing.

“And yet, in one very real sense, he was not alone. Before he could be safe, be must be lonelier still.” 153

The fact that Dave genuinely sees Hal as his last true connection. Even after the murders. How he fights and forgives and comes up with excuses to not have to go through with the enviable because then will he be truly alone… but he also knows logically- Hal isn’t right and can’t be left active. Despite his feelings safety and protocol come first.

Hal is human in Dave’s eyes and it makes things all the more tragic, it’s what turns shutting off functions into lobotomy, into murder. He thinks he won’t feel pain, not because he’s machine but because there’s no sense in the human cortex. So human that his “true” voice is unrecognizable and horrifying.

“Bowman could bare no more. He jerked out the last unit, and Hal was silent forever.” 157

It’s not rage which he makes the final blow, it’s sorrow. It’s pulling the plug.

Some of Hal’s lines in the book particularly, as we get more insight into him as well and some of his pleading. His honest to god confusion and panic because he’s so young and has no idea of sleep and …

“I don’t understand why you’re doing this to me. . . You are destroying my mind. . . Don’t you understand? I will become childish. . . I will be nothing. . .” 156

I don’t know, I’m becoming borderline incoherent but there’s something here that’s so tender and sorrowful that I have to address it. I’m a sucker for the violence = intimacy metaphor just as anyone but the unwitting murderer is also an angle I have to adore.

Maybe in another life Hal got to be a little gay Victorian with someone to hold his hand on his sick bed rather than be murdered. I just think he deserves better; they both do.

Computer death sad -> he should be fed soup

This is when you know you should go to bed.

#sorry that it’s a bit disconjointed - it glitched during the initial draft and half my wording and idea were lost #hal 9000 #meta #2001 a space odyssey #2001 aso #space odyssey #dave bowman #david bowman #metaphor #science fiction #halman #scene analysis #ramble #a space odyssey #2001 meta

[catofoldstones]

Catelyn as Jenny of Oldstones (F+TM) goes so hard tbh. High in the halls of the kings that are gone? She is the King who is gone. She couldn’t remember their names? She is Lady Stoneheart now. The ones she had lost? Her Stark family. The ones she had found? More like found her, the Brotherhood + Brienne + later Arya. The ones who had loved her the most? Her Tully family. Jenny would dance with her ghosts? Lady Stoneheart’s purpose. It’s a song she loved growing up, and now it’s about her? Fun. Jenny was born in Oldstones and Catelyn was resurrected in Oldstones? Fun. She used to act-play Jenny as a child and now she is Jenny. She’s haunting the narrative by literally haunting the most painful part of the 7 kingdoms, like Westeros is a living body and Riverlands are the bruised, bleeding heart. And she never wanted to leave. My god.

#catelyn stark #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #? #jenny of oldstones #florence and the machine #f&tm #f+tm #asos #a song of ice and fire #catelyn tully #this is also the reason why my username is cat of oldstones

[ghastlywretch]

obsessed with how jaime looms like a spectre over the characters and the reader alike in agot and to an even greater extent in acok. you've actually witnessed him firsthand a few times with characters like jon, tyrion and sansa, but most of him is just the golden-haired man haunting bran's dreams, terrifying him, tyrion's brave, strong, impulsive brother who has to be saved, the kingslayer of the smallfolk, the one whose incest and kingslaying has brought down the wrath of the gods upon them, ned's jaime, who is vile and never to be trusted, not worthy of any empathy, the kingslayer that is more idea than person for the younger characters like jon, arya and sansa, the kingslayer that theon almost crossed blades with, his chance for glory (which...okay theon...) the kingslayer whose vile deeds don't erase the fact that he is a knight for stannis, the kingslayer who murdered daenerys' father. he's mentioned in so many conversations. cerwyn mentions him to bran and he feels like he's falling again, renly talks about him and cersei with catelyn in front of brienne, brienne and catelyn mention him in their conversation when they're going to riverrun, robb and tyrion and tywin are all thinking about him. grrm does such a good job at just establishing his presence and significance (not only in the narrative but in a meta way as well, a hint for what's to come) in this world, which just elevates that scene when cat and brienne go down to the dungeons to meet him to an insane level.

#so much to be said about each of these characters' relationship jaime #specifically their relationship to jaime before ASOS #the parasocial nature of it #i sometimes forget that bran is literally terrified of jaime #like i blorbofy him so much but then i remember that this is the VILLAIN in bran's life who took everything away from him #regardless of his intentions or reasons or whatever #and then brienne's relationship with the idea of jaime lannister thee kinglsayer is so compelling as well #her being the one in the tent listening to cat and renly talk for the very first time about jaime and cers #and not only the incest but the attempt on bran's life??? #god #GODDDD #jaime lannister #asoiaf reread #asoiaf #acok #agot #valyrianscrolls #asoiaf meta

[vivacissimx]

Thrice does Arya Stark offer water to dying men. First, the Karstark prisoners sentenced to death for their crimes in the Riverlands, then a heavily injured Sandor Clegane, and finally a young man in the process of committing suicide in the House of Black and White.

They all seemed to be looking at her, the living and the dead alike. The old man had squeezed three fingers out between the bars. "Water," he said, "water."

Arya swung down from her horse. They can't hurt me, they're dying. She took her cup from her bedroll and went to the fountain. "What do you think you're doing, boy?" the townsman snapped. "They're no concern o' yours." She raised the cup to the fish's mouth. The water splashed across her fingers and down her sleeve, but Arya did not move until the cup was brimming over.

—ASOS, Arya V

Long before noon, Sandor Clegane was reeling. There were hours of daylight still remaining when he called a halt. "I need to rest," was all he said. This time when he dismounted he did fall. Instead of trying to get back up he crawled weakly under a tree, and leaned up against the trunk. "Bloody hell," he cursed. "Bloody hell." When he saw Arya staring at him, he said, "I'd skin you alive for a cup of wine, girl."

She brought him water instead. He drank a little of it, complained that it tasted of mud, and slid into a noisy fevered sleep.

—ASOS, Arya XIII

In the center of the temple she found the water she had heard; a pool ten feet across, black as ink and lit by dim red candles. Beside it sat a young man in a silvery cloak, weeping softly. She watched him dip a hand in the water, sending scarlet ripples racing across the pool. When he drew his fingers back he sucked them, one by one. He must be thirsty. There were stone cups along the rim of the pool. Arya filled one and brought it to him, so he could drink. The young man stared at her for a long moment when she offered it to him. "Valar morghulis," he said.

"Valar dohaeris," she replied.

—AFFC, Arya I

There is a lot of handwaving about how in Arya's storyline mercy=death, but it's important to recognize that Arya also shows mercy in the face of death. Despite her own misgivings about the Northmen guilty of rape & pillaging (She wanted to hit them. She wanted to hurt them. She wanted to cry) as well as Sandor (I bet he's killed a hundred Mycah's) it still moves her to see them at a point of suffering. Moves her to commit the ultimately meaningless but still deeply compassionate act of offering them water. It reminds me of Arya throwing the axe to Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen, lest they burn to death; of her attempts to rationalize the deaths of her assigned targets as bettering the world in some way.

It's all connected. Arya offering the water to the prisoners motivates the Brotherhood Without Borders members to take pity on the starving, rotting men by condemning their torture and killing them quick. It's possible that Arya's efforts tide Sandor over until his fever breaks. The man in the Temple was already dying from a stab wound, but after drinking from Arya's proffered cup, chooses to seek out his final resting place in an alcove.

Death may be the final mercy, but a cup of water is the first.

#asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #text #asoiaf meta #arya stark #asos #affc #q

[thisisnotthenerd]

d20 finale thoughts.

for being the ‘horror season’, the intrepid heroes really go all in on the comedy in neverafter. i was laughing through the finale, in between some high stakes roles, npc and pc deaths, and wave after wave of enemies.

now that i think about it, this finale just shows how much the intrepid heroes have really tightened up their strategy as players, to the point that they can pull really crazy bits in the midst of battle and still hit a victory at the end of the day. for every ih season, they’ve had to step up the final battle to make it something that’s conceivably a challenge to the players

like in fhfy, they had some quips in the final battle, and a clutch beardsley roll to kick off the final ep, but it’s all battle focus. more individual attacks, and just trying to keep everyone alive pre-aguefort intervention. they had a few smaller enemies to deal with, but the primary issue was kalvaxus.

with tuc, it’s a similar scenario, but they have more options in terms of calling allies and a more complex environment. the individual appeals from the american dream, as well as the continuation of their fight with robert moses make this a more involved combat than fhfy. they were more confident coming in.

with acoc, the balance between troop mechanics and individual combat was the new challenge--the gimmick of the battlefield being the one they had previously fled from, as well as the task of getting rid of the leaders as well as the general troops added a new dimension to the ih final combats. edit: the intra-party tension added to this battle in particular; saccharina & ruby really defined the end of the campaign.

once they hit fhsy, battles became longer and carried out over more than just the two finale episodes. with theater of the mind, brennan could give them a longer sequence of individual and group combat. it starts with the nightmare forest individual fear scenes, layers on the need to rescue their attacking/trapped allies, as well as the continuity of the lore going on throughout the battle. i would say this style of battle, with multiple waves to exhaust the intrepid heroes, set a precedent for future combats.

with tuc II, the longer battle sequence continued, but more condensed. tony simos @ gramercy took 1 and a half episodes to get through, and so did null at the dragon’s hoard. again, each battle had layered mechanics e.g. having to stop the umbral engine overload and then having to birth the dragon. this style of battle aligns with what we saw in previous final combats, and has just the funniest instance of a divine intervention that i’ve seen.

in starstruck, they have talespire. they also have a lot of enemies, with their guns, trained on you. there were a few layers to this combat. again, the extension from a previous battle episode, the split between minis and ship combat, and of course, who could forget margaret encino, turning their enemies away with the power of emails and girlbossing her way into a campaign office. literally overwhelming odds that they managed to pull through including a 2 on the die from gnosis.

and now with neverafter, they had waves of powerful enemies, going from a siege to a tower defense from one episode to the next, the baba yaga, the ally persuasion mechanics, and the objective of holding concentration on bottle of ink that has hand(s), while either convincing or killing everyone else. the actual battle was not the hard part--as evidenced by the shenanigans they pulled off by the skin of their teeth. it was just the singular goal, and more rp than previous final combats. they also just crit. so much. no need for a beardsley crit when you’ve got siobhan one-shotting fairies and zac killing god and rolling an 18 that makes a new universe.

in short, as d20 has grown, so to have the intrepid heroes (+brennan). i’m excited to see where they go from here.

#dimension 20 #neverafter #dimension 20 meta #d20 meta #fantasy high #the unsleeping city #a crown of candy #a starstruck odyssey #tuc #tuc ii #acoc #aso #nva #fhfy #fhsy #d20 fhfy #d20 fhsy #d20 tuc #d20 tuc ii #d20 acoc #d20 neverafter #neverafter spoilers

[kingsmoot]

sorry to be serving up "read another fucking book" energies but i jumped when tywin said this bc i've actually always wondered why ramsay wears a garnet in his ear and not a ruby

a garnet is a fairly common stone (less common in fantasy medieval times i'm sure but still common when compared to rubies) and generally has a deeper hue, which i guess would make it shine more like blood

but rubies are also the default metaphor/illustrative comparison when talking about blood. it's always ruby red, dripping rubies, weeping rubies, etc. cersei's rhaegar cosplay dress is encrusted in rubies, i think lion's tooth has a ruby in the pommel. and it's not like house bolton couldn't afford ruby earrings, nor is it likely that ramsay was denied daddy's credit card for a ruby earring but not for anything else

it's possibly a deliberate choice for the darker hue but this line persuades me that it's another sign of ramsay's "bad blood" meaning of course his poor breeding

you wouldn't know that garnets lack the brilliance that rubies have in their shine unless you were raised with garnets and rubies to choose from

#liveblog tag #asos liveblog tag #ramsay tag #my meta tag #valyrianscrolls #ramsay bolton

[goodqueenaly]

What do you think Tywin’s response would have been if Tyrion had pointed out that Tywin himself was an unmarried Lannister male in kings landing who could wed Sansa Stark?

Here's the thing, though: Tyrion already knew that there was no point in proposing an alternate candidate, since it was obvious Tywin had settled on him, Tyrion, as the bridegroom:

“If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins,” said his father. “Kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?” Ser Kevan hesitated. “If we bring the girl to his bedside, he could say the words … [sic] but to consummate, no … [sic] I would suggest one of the twins, but the Starks hold them both at Riverrun. They have Genna’s boy Tion as well, else he might serve.” Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew. Sansa Stark, he mused. Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.

That these alternate candidates Tywin and Kevan ostensibly considered were never a practical reality was not the point. Tywin wanted a Tyrion-Sansa marriage, and he was going to use any and all types of pressure to get Tyrion to agree - from pretending to take Sansa away and give her to someone else to reminding Tyrion of how scorned his disability is on the Westerosi marriage market to presenting Winterfell as a sort of lordly concession prize (because, of course, Tyrion could never have Casterly Rock, in Tywin's mind). So it would have been only more wasting time on Tyrion's part to suggest that Tywin himself step in as the bridegroom: just as Tywin had responded to Tyrion's apparent lack of nuptial fervor by suggesting one of his, Tyrion's, cousins take his place and then threatening to give Tyrion a different bride, so I think Tywin would simply have ignored Tyrion and employed more of the same pressure tactics on him had the latter even suggested Tywin marry Sansa instead.

#asoiaf meta #asos #tyrion lannister #tywin lannister

[asongoftinandfoil]

I love how ASOIAF is about stories.

I mean. “All writing is about writing,” my professors told me, and a series called “A SONG of Ice and Fire” is going to be about songs/tales/legacies/stories. 

But I’m not even 200 pages into ASOS and I’ve already gotten 3 or 4 different songs.

The Dornishman’s Wife. The Bear and the Maiden Fair. Off to Gulltown. Tyrion muses about Seasons of My Love, and Symon Silvertongue. And I’m barely into this doorstopper of a book.

Songs and stories have been a major theme since the very beginning (the stories/sayings Will and Waymar and Gared talk about, “never believe anything you hear at a woman’s tit,” Waymar’s unwillingness to believe Will’s account without seeing it for himself, his need to have a good story to tell when he returns to the Wall) and it just keeps going! Stories are how our characters make sense of themselves and each other. Stories give them identity and villainize the “other,” but they also bring unity across race and culture. 

And yes I’m a writer, too, so of course I love thinking about writing. Of course I want to believe that a thirteen-year-old Sansa singing the Mother’s Hymn to Sandor Clegane is one of the most important moments in the series. (He’s a broken man having the worst day of his life! He could do the most heinous crimes in the world--but Sansa presents him with a song of MERCY and KINDNESS and he CRIES and leaves her his cloak and ohmigod the wedding symbolism and starts his journey to being a better man and I’m not crying you’re crying)

So maybe it’s all a bit self congratulatory on GRRM’s part, or maybe it really is that effective. Maybe, just maybe, stories and songs can be the things that change people.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #sandor clegane #sansa stark #asos

[snowsandstones]

He could tell she did not believe him. If I could show her Winterfell . . . give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us. The dream was sweet . . . but Winterfell would never be his to show.-ASOS, Jon V

“Anyhow, men shouldn't smell sweet like flowers." "What's wrong with flowers?" “Nothing, for a bee. For bed I want one o' these." Ygritte made to grab the front of his breeches. "What if the man who stole you drank too much?" he insisted.” -ASOS, Jon V

forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? […] I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb. He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it. […] Winterfell belongs to the old gods. - ASOS, Jon XII

“In my dreams it was ever a dark place, and cold." “No. It was always warm, even when it snowed. Water from the hot springs is piped through the walls to warm them, and inside the glass gardens it was always like the hottest day of summer." She stood, towering over the great white castle. "I can't think how to do the glass roof over the gardens." -ASOS, Sansa VI

“You gave me a rose. A red rose. You threw white roses to the other girls that day." It made her flush to speak of it. -ASOS, Sansa I

"My son is drunk, you can see that." “I am," the Imp confessed, "but not so drunk that I cannot attend to my own bedding." He hopped down from the dais and grabbed Sansa roughly. "Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle." Red-faced, Sansa went with him from the Small Hall. […] "Is that wise, my lord?" “Nothing was ever wiser. I am not truly drunk, you see. But I mean to be." -ASOS, Sansa III

He would be Lord of Highgarden and she would be his lady. She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.” -ASOS, Sansa II

That was such a sweet dream, Sansa thought drowsily. She had been back in Winterfell, running through the godswood with her Lady. -ASOS, Sansa IV

….i know it’s been said many times but we’re supposed to believe that GRRM, self-proclaimed lover of subtext and foreshadowing, put all of this (and this isn’t even everything) in the same book by coincidence? like what copy of ASOS did people read if they did at all?

#ASOS is THE jonsa book #and my fave in the series for many reasons including this #jon x sansa #jonsa #my words #meta

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

We need to talk more often about how clever was Jon on his first meeting with Mance at ASOS. The boy knew that despite the guest right protecting him ( since he had already eaten at Mance's table) he was still in a dangerous position so he had to choose his words carefully in order to survive. So what did he do once Mance asked him why he deserted?

First, he brought some extra time to himself - so he could think more carefully what to answer - by taking a long drought of mead. Then his great observation skills paid off, as he correctly had observed that Mance was a man who liked to talk about himself. So when Jon asked him to reveal first his reasons for his own desertion of the Night's Watch, Mance gladly took the bait. And by doing so, he learned more about his opponent and his values. That made Jon more prepared to give an answer which would satisfy Mance once his turn of talking came.

They say that the best lies are based on truth, and that's what Jon does with his answer to Mance. He's not lying when he implies that he was jealous because he wasn't allowed to attend on the central table along with his family and the royal family. Back on his first chapter in AGOT, where that feast took place, it was crystal clear that Jon was jealous and he was drinking too much trying to forget. However, what he didn't tell Mance there was that his love for his family, his brothers at the Wall and the North in general is so much bigger than any negative feelings he had.

#jon snow #mance rayder #a post of ice and fire #valyrianscrolls #asoiaf meta #jon snow meta #jon snow asos i #jon snow asos

[maiamars]

ned/howland/arthur being nod to bediviere (or griflet)/lady of the lake/king arthur

arthur as arthur who gives up his magic sword after his final fight, ned as bediviere/griflet who takes this sword but it takes two lies before fianlly giving it up to where it belongs, howland as the lady of the lake for being ones of the few who went to the isles of faces and yet came back

ned's first lie is jon but what's the second one maybe something related to arthur ; isle of face is kinda a nod to avalon on that note, the sword being returned is followed by arthur being taken to avalon to heal until he is needed again

dawn is also waiting in starfall, for what that's question ? especially when grrm is kinda obsessed by the symbolism of dawn and the peacefulness that it brings after a long night

maybe howland saved ned by proposing something to arthur in exchange of ned's lives, something that he accepted and whats why ned still have a deep respect for him even after all this years (like honouring his legacy to bran) (daenerys is also aware of him by viserys, jon probably knows him to but he also have edric dayne, jaime's journey is about wondering why such stars as arthur and brienne feel him worth him enough, like all westeros is still thinking about him and in good terms)

so something about arthur being hidden by howland, something about arthur reuniting with dawn when the winds of winter are upon them, something about him and howland telling the truth to jon, something about arthur passing up dawn to the final lightbringer

#asoiaf meta #asoiaf #eddard stark #howland reed #arthur dayne #sorry brain is not braining #but also what can i do when grrm is like dawn dawn dawn dawn in almost every chapter like asos is full of it #anyway also wants to link jaime to lancelot and ashara to elaine

[stuckasmain]

Hal tries to warn them. Twice. I hadn’t noticed until recently but he does, it’s hard to notice because the way he tries to sounds so routine for him. The second time was just before Frank’s murder making it an all the more tragic case.

Hal is programmed to tell the truth- he wants to- has to and yet the one most vital part he can’t tell them. Not yet. But he tries to work around the order by bringing it up in ways where he is not explicitly telling them that something is wrong or about the true nature of the mission. Unfortunately for Hal the way he goes about it is too similar to that of his typical behavior and it goes unnoticed by the crew until it is too late. It is hard to pick up on his concern/meaning without already knowing something was wrong in the first place. This is the case during the second attempt but it backfires- now his entire existence is in jeopardy.

His first attempt is sprinkled with if/have/you/perhaps. His questions seem rhetorical and prying and it’s mistaken for a psychological evaluation. “I’d be worried if I heard XYZ, wouldn’t you be?” Rather than “I’m worried about this, do you feel the same?” Dave seems to pick up on the strain and nerves in his tone but isn’t entirely sure what to do with it. Maybe he just sees it as Hal’s speech improving and becoming more conversational with better tone.

The second time it is just assumed to be his usual behavior, Hal has always been a tad prideful and self assured. His insistence on the matter of error wouldn’t be unusual despite him pointing it out a bit more than usual.

“It can only be attributable to human error.”

I think this here is as close as he can come to outright telling them, it has always been attributable to human error. Someone put in a wrong number or gave a stranger order, a computer can only be as good as its inputs in that if you mess up code, orders etc. it cannot be at fault for that. Here Hal is hinting that the cause of the break, what lead him to (unknowingly) falsify it has been because of conflicting orders and intervention by humans. This wouldn’t have happened if he wasn’t given conflicting orders and lead to lie- he had been operating perfectly before and all of this time … how is that not proof to them that he is not at fault? (In his mind) He thinks he is being much more explicit than he really is- his earlier attempt and the current one fall too inline with how he usually acts for them to take notice, there’s a nuance not noticed by his human companions.

It also further plays into the fact Hal is sick. His attempts at warning them are just as unconscious as him hallucinating the faults in the first place. If he doesn’t know/believe anything is wrong with him why would he try to warn them in the first place? These little moments of lucidity and begging that a truly sick person never seems to remember and you can’t be sure of it was really them or just the fever. That’s why, even after there’s an idea of what’s going on Dave and Frank are still uncertain.

Can you really heed a warning that might be just as much of a trick as the failure?

Can you heed a warning you don’t hear?

When he makes the second attempt they now know something is wrong, except it doesn’t matter what cause it at this point It is something wrong with Hal, their concern is much more on their own and mission survival. Hal has to go to sleep for a while, he must be deactivated— if he hallucinated this break what other vital element could be next? What if it’s the life support systems? Cause doesn’t matter right now survival does.

By the time he makes this second warning it’s too late for him or any of them…

#wifi went out when I made my first draft and I’m pissed so I really hope this one makes sense #2001 a space odyssey #2001 aso #a space odyssey #Hal 9000 #frank poole #David bowman #Dave bowman #meta #2001 meta #character analysis

[phatcatphergus]

While I definitely see how this feels out of nowhere to how qTubbo was feeling, I feel like assuming it was all done to "calm down twitter" and "appease to chat" takes away agency from ccTubbo. He could've just turn down Fred's attempts at reconnecting based on how his character felt, but he didn't. The admin and him noticed a communication issued that wasn't supposed to happen and altered it (doesn't work well with the rp but oh well)

Sure they could've gone about it in a different and more natural way, all your criticisms are really valid. I just don't get why you're mad at twitter/chat as if this isn't a Tubbo choice, he could've just not done it, he wasn't obligated to.

Sorry this isn't supposed to be mean or anything I'm just confused cause this is very clearly something the cc wants, isn't wasn't executed in the best way but at the end of the day it was his choice

Hope you're doing well thought !! English isn't my first language hopefully this sounds fine

No worries nonnie! I always appreciate it and I totally see where you are coming from.

The reason I say the main reason they did this because of chat/twitter is because of how Twitter/chat treated ccTubbo both last night and today. There were a LOT of people that convinced Tubbo that he read the book wrong and then forgot his own lore because he's dyslexic and forgetful. They called him dumb and blamed the whole thing on him when it was a mutual miscommunication.

The thing is that we ALL read the letter the same exact way and we ALL came to the same conclusions so dogpiling Tubbo into thinking HE messed up is absolutely unacceptable.

Now this goes into how the lore played out today. ccTubbo is a grown man who can make decisions himself, that is 100% true. The problem lies in Tubbo making decisions that he wants to make if that makes sense. He has a history of putting his own wants aside to play games that chat enjoys over something he would enjoy more. He's said as much on his alt streams. So for basically all of Twitter and his chat to say that he fucked up, bully him, and straight up call him dumb and that the whole thing was his fault, its not impossible for him to feel like its easier to just go with what chat wants or do smth to fix it and make up for "causing this problem" in the first place.

Also, even though they can fix the miscommunication issue through rp, there's no reason to do it NOW and there's no reason to do it how they did it today. This is a main reason I think it's a "fix-it" for Twitter.

Everything was rushed, OOC, and the whole thing with Ramon knowing Fred was at Tubchunk, Sunny immediately having the tea part reason and tubbo checking the tab list the second Fred logged on makes me think it was planned and planned quickly. There was no reason for Fred to visit or even hear rumors of Tubbo misunderstanding his letter because qtubbo didn't even know he misunderstood it!

At the end of the day, lore and rp and what goes on behind the scenes are more subjective to people than objective. I've just been watching Tubbo for a while and the treatment he's received paired with his past comments brought me to this result.

#i aso think that people always try and fit everything into an rp box #when sometimes there are meta reasosns for lore as well #we have to aknowledge what else was going on at the time and we cant just pretend it isn't happening #anon asks #qsmp crit #qsmp neg #not sure about that one but tagging jic

[dimension-20-every-introduction]

Everyone Introduced in Dimension 20′s A Starstruck Odyssey episode 18 (finale, part 2)

#dimension 20 spoilers #a starstruck odyssey #dimension 20 #a starstruck odyssey spoilers #aso #aso spoilers #d20 introductions #MAN this episode was so much fun #the whole season was tbh #i know there's meta analyses for aso floating around about how a lot of the season was pointless or meaningless or w/e #but i really liked this season #i loved how silly it got and how fun it was that this tiny little ship of rats got wrapped up in galaxy wide conflict #when they're mostly just trying to escape with their lives more than anything #i loved the character arc skip and skipper went through and i hope they live a much happier life now that they're together for real #i loved seeing gunnie's debt resolved after how hard he'd worked just to scrape by #and for so long too #i loved the gladiator fight and how earned all those rewards felt #pcs beating out TRULY impossible odds #bc in a galaxy as big and wild as starstruck's- the coincidences can get JUST AS big and wild and mindboggling #although i think i can see what brennan meant when he said the players made the most busted pcs he'd ever seen #man. what a ride #see y'all next season!!