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atopvisenyashill · 3 months

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Thoughts on the Alysanne is Maegor's daughter AU? I feel like it has some interesting potential, and it vastly recontextualizes different parts of Jaehaehae (I do not like him sjsjsjs) and Alysanne's relationship (such as Jaehaehae's treatment of their daughters) but I wanna hear what you think about it!

I’ve touched on this a bit before but since you actually want to hear my thoughts, allow me to present to you my Jaehaerys Is The Goddamn Worst, And Alysanne Annoys Me Too: An Essay lmao but my answer is basically “yeah all of what you just said.”

I think it makes Alysanne much more palatable (to me) as a character because as she stands, she just fixates on forcing her daughters through these fucked up marriages at too young an age bc it traumatized her to be married and pregnant at 15 too but she’d never admit that being a willing participant in her own kidnapping by her brother-husband was the single worst thing that ever happened to her, and because Alysanne doesn’t want to admit it (and Jaehaerys would never see it as wrong or a mistake) F&B really shies away from delving into the fact that Alysanne is as deranged of a mother as Cersei is. So as she stands, she’s very flat to me because she’s presented very flatly and inconsistently. She’s so in love with Jaehaerys, she’s maritally raped by Jaehaerys, she’s a loving and doting mother, she forces her daughters into marriages when they’re the same too young age she was, she accuses her teenage girls of being scheming whores then gets angry when her husband accuses their teenage girls of being scheming whores, and worst of all we are just told “Maegelle tells them to make up so they do” so we don’t know why Alysanne gets over all of this. What is the point of riding a dragon when you never use that dragon to protect your daughters from unwanted teen marriages? We’re just not given a good enough justification for why her behavior is so weird and frustrating towards her daughters.

Make her Maegor’s daughter though…most of her behavior as an adult makes more sense. Like a worse version of Rhaenyra’s childhood almost - a father desperate for a son, but lowkey obsessed with his daughter, who makes all his hang ups about his parents the problems of every woman around him, except Maegor is out here blood sacrificing and torturing and starting wars and forcing babies on wives he discards quickly and brutally. Then here comes Jaehaerys on a white horse green dragon to save her from the horror her life has become, and he loves her so much he runs away with her even though Alyssa says they shouldn’t marry because people won’t like it. And they have beautiful children, and a beautiful marriage, and build a beautiful kingdom.

Then her pregnancies start getting dangerous. Gaemon, then Valerion, die. Alysanne thinks of the shriveled up mutants she called brothers, if Maegor’s taint has passed to her. Her perfect husband ignores her no, and forces Gael on her. Alysanne remembers that he said nothing to Rogar when Alyssa died, merely wept. Then her daughters start to die. Daella, Alyssa, Viserra, all within a few years. Then Jaehaerys makes Saera watch as he murders her boyfriend, calls her a whore, and says Alysanne cannot follow Saera to Lys. Alysanne thinks of Maegor torturing the Harroways over Alys’ presumed infidelity. Jaehaerys says he’s sorry, and her daughter badgers her into forgiving him, and she remembers how she helped Jaehaerys badger Alyssa into forgiving Rogar. Not two years later, Jaehaerys passes over Rhaenys. Alysanne thinks of how she was never enough for her father, how she felt so superior to Rhaena banished to Dragonstone and resented by Aerea, yet there she is dragging Gael away from court because she can’t stand to be with Jaehaerys. How her father was surrounded by dead women and dead babies and how Jaehaerys is surrounded by his own dead daughters, but surely she did the right thing, surely Maegor was worse, surely the realm is better off? Is he right to pass over Rhaenys? Is she enabling a man just as monstrous as her father? She will never decide, because Maegelle will guilt her about keeping Gael isolated at Dragonstone, and Alysanne will do as she’s told, just like Rhaena, and Alyssa, and Jeyne, Elinor, Ceryse, Alys, and Tyanna, just like every one of her daughters.

I do get why Alysanne is Alyssa & Aenys’ and not Maegor’s. The weird Targ babies, the line not descending from Visenya, Jaehaerys and Alysanne being held up as the perfect Targaryen couple specifically because they are brother and sister and dragon riders. I do even think canon Alysanne is likely traumatized by her time as a hostage on Dragonstone, and the ensuing war, and the trauma bond that caused with Jaehaerys, and it makes her idolize Jaehaerys, and then he isolates her at Dragonstone so he can swiftly and safely marry, groom, and knock her up. It’s not like,,,, a fun time, and it’s enough to make anyone crazy and weird about their daughters, but I think having her father be Maegor makes Alysanne herself much deeper because it gives her, as the most beloved Targaryen queen, a blood tie to the most hated Targaryen king, and a marriage to the most beloved Targaryen king. It fits better with a lot of the themes of the main series (again, imo) - forcing the spotlight on the outsiders to see how the affect the story from behind the scenes. The fall of Aegon’s sons, and The Long Reign, not told from the PoV or to serve the PoV of any of the kings or princes, but of the queen that tied them all together.

#anti jaehaerys i targaryen #f&b critical #fire and blood critical #asks #thesadboy #like he kind of does this with aenys & maegor by focusing on alyssa and rhaena and the wives and visenya.#but the Moment jaehaerys enters the scene he completely dominates it. the same way daemon and aemond do actually.#but this is not. it should not!! be their story. that’s not how the main series is told anyway!!#if f&b isn’t told by a dornish maester than it should have been written by a septa!!!#nuns wrote books!!!!!#rich noblewomen wrote novels and poetry!!!!!!!#GEORGE DO YOU READ WOMEN. I AM NO LONGER ASKING POLITELY.#i went to look for her mother and apparently this was just a mistake elio made and i’m even more depressed. i can’t believe i’m saying this #but elio damn your mind.#i bet he saw that and went ‘wait which one is her fucjing mother’ and george was like what in the goddamn hell are you talking about.#idk who would be her mother in this au. if we want to keep her within 3 ish years of jaehaerys it Has to be alys or ceryse. ceryse hightowe #is the hilarious and obvious choice. but don’t count out alys harroway second wife here either.#then there’s rhaena as her mother which with the canon timeline makes him 12 years older and isn’t THAT horrible let’s stop here actually.

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duxbelisarius · 1 year

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The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 1)

I’ve been meaning to do this since I watched House of the Dragon and read Fire & Blood; after reading and re-reading F&B, I’ve concluded that the way that the Dance of the Dragons was fought by both factions is plain nonsensical. I will demonstrate this by analyzing the military as well as political aspects of George’s narrative, referring to F&B and other works in George’s ASOIAF legendarium and analysis I’ve seen from reddit and Tumblr. Part 1 covers Chapters 1 and 2 of The Dying of the Dragons, being The Blacks and the Greens and A Son for A Son, as well as The Red Dragon and the Gold where it concerns the alignment of the houses.

Starting with Gyldan’s claim that the realm was ‘divided in two’ by the Dance, this is provably false even if one takes it as just a shorthand phrase and not a serious attempt at summarizing the Dance for his audience. Rhaenyra received the nigh uncontested support of four of the Seven Kingdoms during the war, the North, the Riverlands, the Iron Islands and the Vale, whereas Aegon II’s claim went uncontested only in the Westerlands and Stormlands. The Crownlands and Reach were divided from the outset, with the Tyrells remaining neutral until the end (arguably, but we’ll save that for later). Taking into account the Royal Fleet and Rhaenyra’s numerical advantage in Dragons, even though Rhaenyra’s allies were not all able to provide immediate support, the sheer number of her supporters presents a problem with George’s set-up.

What is that problem? By George’s premises that he established in his work, Rhaenyra’s support should not exist or at least not without the lack of qualification he provides. The chapter Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession states that the Council of 101 AC chose Viserys over Rhaenys’ son Laenor by a wide margin, possibly as much as 20-to-1. Though she was passed over as Jaehaerys’ heir in 92 AC for her uncle Baelon, Rhaenys’ claim for her son was superior to that of Viserys, as she was the eldest child of the first son of the King while Viserys was the second son’s eldest. Yet George would have us believe that after passing over Rhaenys’ superior claim under Andal Law, the lords of the realm would support Rhaenyra in droves despite her objectively inferior claim? The oaths sworn to Rhaenyra as Viserys’ heir were made when Daemon was removed from the line of succession, and because Viserys had no children save for Rhaenyra. By Viserys’ death he has three sons and his eldest, Aegon, was in a similar situation to Rhaenys and Laenor. Under Andal Law, a sister cannot inherit before a brother; but just like in 101 AC, the wishes of the King that the legal heir not inherit were given preference over the law. There should be plenty of lords and ladies from either side of the 101 AC debates that would support Aegon on the basis of his sex or his legal status, but save for House Baratheon it seems that none of the houses that supported Rhaenys received offers of alliance from Otto and the Green Council until after Blood and Cheese, if at all.

George does not help his case by giving us so few good reasons as to why certain houses supported Rhaenyra or Aegon; @lemonhemlock has an entire tag devoted to this issue, and I recommend starting with this thread. Despite Aegon II’s ties to the Reach via the Hightowers and the potential for this to increase the Reach’s influence over the realm, the number of houses listed as joining the Blacks far outnumbers the Greens. House Beesbury, Merryweather and Caswell may be explained by Aegon executing members of those families for supporting Rhaenyra, but we get no reasoning for the Tarlys, Mullendores, Grimms, Rowans, Oakhearts, Footlys or Costaynes. On the opposite end of the spectrum are the Westerlands and Stormlands, which supported Aegon II without any mention of internal opposition by Gyldan. This is especially bizarre for the Stormlands given that Otto Hightower expected House Tarth to support Rhaenyra, while Lady Fell and Lord Buckler were among those executed by Aegon II early in the war. This trend of inexplicable unanimity continues with the Riverlands, whose lords are called a ‘notoriously quarrelsome lot’ but support Rhaenyra completely with the exception of the Brackens and the Vances of Atranta. The only real basis for this support that we get from the narrative rests upon the oaths made to Rhaenyra in 106 AC and a single visit she made to Riverrun in 112 AC, decades before the war began.

The unanimity of Northern support for Rhaenyra is even more questionable based on information which George provides within Fire & Blood and elsewhere. Despite Rickon Stark’s death in 121 AC, his son Cregan Stark only became Lord of Winterfell in 126 AC after imprisoning his uncle Bennard Stark and his sons for being slow to relinquish their authority as regents. Despite the approach of winter and the conflict with his uncle, we hear nothing of any misgivings or opposition to Cregan’s pact with Jacaerys. The pact itself is remarkably generous to Rhaenyra, guaranteeing the North’s support in exchange for the marriage of Cregan’s son to a future daughter of the still unwed Jacaerys Velaryon (contrast this with Hoster Tully’s demanding that Ned Stark wed & bed Catelyn during Robert’s Rebellion). In the case of Jeyne Arryn’s support for Rhaenyra, her supporters in House Royce have every reason to oppose this given that Rhaenyra’s consort is Daemon Targaryen, the man who allegedly had Rhea Royce murdered and tried to claim Runestone. Yet they seem not to oppose Lady Arryn’s decision, and Ser Willam Royce is among Rhaenyra’s supporters during the King’s Landing riots. When the war is over and Jeyne Arryn dies, House Royce promptly makes an about-face to support Arnold Arryn over Jeyne’s named heir Joffrey. Finally there’s the “Silent Five,” Corlys Velaryon’s nephews who lost their tongues for accusing Lucerys and his brothers of being bastards. We are told in Under the Regents - The Hooded Hand that the Five supported Aegon and that three died during the war, yet we do not hear of Velaryon forces of any kind supporting the Greens in the Dance’s narrative until after Rhaenyra imprisons Corlys.

The Dance’s narrative makes even less sense when it comes to the Tyrells and Tullys, both of whom are neutral for most of the conflict. The Tyrells initially declare for Aegon but opt for neutrality when confronted with the large number of Black supporters in the Reach. The Tyrells remain neutral even after these Black houses are brought to heel by Ormund Hightower and Daeron Targaryen, but according to Maester Munkun they prevented the Hightowers from aiding Aegon II at the end by threatening the life of Garmund Hightower (fostering at Highgarden as a ward). The Tyrells were apparently unmoved by Aegon II’s rising fortunes, but were prepared to violate guest right and murder a child for the prospect of Aegon III becoming king.

Meanwhile Elmo Tully keeps his house out of the war despite the protestations of his grandfather Grover, who is bed-ridden but wishes to support Aegon II. Elmo wished to avoid his house being assailed by either faction’s dragons, but he breaks neutrality and declares for Rhaenyra after being visited by Addam Velaryon with Seasmoke. While Elmo is claimed to have said “a dragon in one’s courtyard does wonders to resolve one’s doubts,” this quote makes House Tully’s prior neutrality even more mystifying. Daemon and Aemond were both present in the Riverlands and rode dragons far fiercer than Seasmoke, but we’re to believe that neither of them considered a show of force as a means of winning over House Tully? Elmo’s decision also makes little sense in light of the fact that Rhaenyra’s cause is in shambles at this point in the Dance, with Borros Baratheon and Ormund Hightower closing in from the south, the people of King’s Landing rioting against her, her Velaryon supporters abandoning her en masse due to the imprisonment of Lord Corlys, and rumors circulating that she had Queen Helaena and Dowager Queen Alicent gang-raped in a Flea Bottom whore-house. That George chose this moment for the Tullys to intervene on Rhaenyra’s behalf is bizarre, especially given the devastation wrought upon the Riverlands by the Dance.

I’ve doubtless left out other examples of inconsistencies and contradictions within the political alliances of George’s narrative, but in the interest of keeping things brief I’ve focused on what I found were the most obvious. If you’ve made it this far without drowning in walls of text, I commend you and thank you for your time (I definitely intend to add more images to spice things up).

If you’ve got feedback for me, the replies and my inbox are open!

#house of the dragon #hotd #team green #team black #grrm critical #fire and blood critical #asoiaf critical #asoiaf

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wishesofeternity · 1 year

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Daemon Targaryen rant, incoming

(Warning: it’s really long)

To begin, this is how Daemon Targaryen is introduced in the story:

“Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both. In his day there was not a man so admired, so beloved, and so reviled in all Westeros. He was made of light and darkness in equal parts. To some he was a hero, to others the blackest of villains.”

The problem with this sort of narrative is that is conflates morality with fundamental human nature. The latter is the capacity for good and evil, and the ability to choose, that exists in every human being. However, it means absolutely nothing without morality, which is defined as a system of values or principles of conduct, and is used to understand the extent to which an action is right or wrong. Grey morality is the blurring of those lines, where motives and contexts are so complex that you cannot pin down whether an action or a person is purely good or purely bad.

Daemon Targaryen, like every other character, possesses the capacity for good and evil and the ability to choose. But morally? Daemon was a child groomer and a pedophile who had physical relations with his teenage niece and a 17-year old girl (he was 50 at the time), and enjoyed sampling young virgins at brothels. He was a warmonger and war criminal who began a conquest of the Stepstones, taking all but two islands, ensuring that the people there "learned to fear" his dragon, before abandoning the entire thing because he got bored. He was a child murderer responsible for the brutal murder of a 6-year old boy and the threat of rape to a 6-year old girl. He encouraged the continuation of the Dance and vengeance against his enemies, dismissing his Hand's proposal for peace. He had the selfishness of Aegon IV, the brutality of Maegor, and the tyranny of Aerys II. And that’s just scratching the surface of the things he did, both before and during the Dance. This man was not morally grey. He was not “light and darkness in equal parts”, because that implies a moral balance or moral complexity which does not exist. He had the innate capability to do both good and evil, yes. No one is denying that he could potentially be a decent person, or potentially make better choices. That is true of every human being. But the fact remains that Daemon was repeatedly and consistently awful throughout the overwhelming majority of his life, to the detriment of the people close to him and Westeros as a whole. Nor does he have a Tragic Backstory(tm) to contextualize his actions: he was a prince born to the most powerful family in the continent with an immense amount of privilege that allowed him to get away with virtually everything. Daemon isn't "morally grey", he's just an entitled asshole who does what he wants and suffers absolutely no consequences for it. There's nothing particularly complex or compelling about that.

I think there is also a conflation of grey morality with unpredictability. Daemon was unpredictable, with his sudden elopements and kickstarting of wars and general mercuriality. The moral complexity of this, however, depends on his motives, and none of his are particularly complicated or difficult to morally pin down: he is primarily and consistently motivated by self-interest. If they happen to benefit others, it’s purely coincidental, and always secondary. Unpredictability does not automatically make someone morally grey, and it certainly doesn’t with Daemon.

(And since lots of people have brought this up, I would also like to point out that love is not inherently virtuous. Kevan Lannister loved his family, does that balance out the cause he served and make him morally grey? The Greens also loved each other and fought for each other till the bitter end, does that mean they should be excused in a similar manner? And contrary to what people believe, Daemon has not been explicitly or singularly loving to any family member in canon except for Laena Velaryon, which was more convenient than purposeful. Was he a good father? Maybe, but nothing in the text emphasizes or denies anything. I would also like to point out that his last act in life was literally to abandon Rhaenyra and his children to settle a personal score, directly leading to her downfall and two of his children’s imprisonment. I don’t understand how people bring up his “love” for his family as his redeeming factor at all).

If the narrative had leaned into his awfulness, he could have potentially been a fun villain. But ultimately, the problem lies in the fact that while Daemon is constantly shown to be an all-around terrible person, the narrative repeatedly paints him as someone who is both a monster and a great man, and who is made up of both light and darkness "in equal parts". Thus, all his atrocities are absorbed into a narrative mythos of glorified grey morality rather than outright condemned. In order for him to be a truly morally complex character, a balance needed to be maintained, and in this case, it was simultaneously one-sided and non-existent.

Basically, GRRM’s version of grey morality is deeply flawed. This one in particular was a classic example of telling rather than showing, and a classic example of an author having a particular characterization in mind but executing it very differently in the text, because Daemon is nowhere near as complex or as compelling as GRRM or his stans seem to believe he is.

It is also necessary to remember that Daemon is one of GRRM’s all-time favourite Targaryens, which explains quite a bit of my frustration regarding the way he’s written. Namely, it explains why the narrative of the Dance was single-handedly ruined by the prioritization of Daemon and Daemon's storyline at the expense of virtually every other character.

His wives are all overshadowed by him and primarily defined by their relationship with him. Rhea Royce is an unfeatured non-entity who exists solely for him to hate, and conveniently dies in time for him to remarry. Laena is a beautiful, fiery, perfect companion who dies tragically young and in a conveniently gendered manner, once again in time for him to remarry. Rhaenyra is sidelined and eclipsed in her own war and her own story in favor of him. Nor should we forget his lovers: more time is spent describing Nettles and Mysaria’s relationships with Daemon than actually telling us more about them as individuals. Once he’s out of the picture for good, the former completely retreats from civilization, and the latter is gruesomely murdered by his enemies. Once again, all I can say is: Convenient.

Perhaps the most damning aspect of this blatant favoritism is how Daemon is turned into the essential protagonist of the Dance of the Dragons. He is the “wonder and terror of his age”, with a legendary sword and a famous, fearsome dragon. He is the one driving the events that lead to the Dance and the events of the Dance itself; thus, he completely usurps Rhaenyra, the actual claimant of the throne. While she is being dismissed by their enemies, he is singled out as the most dangerous threat. While she is being berated for refusing to risk herself or her sons in battle and thus costing her allies their lives, he secures a spectacular and bloodless victory by taking over Harrenhal. While she collapses after hearing of the death of her son, he promises vengeance and enacts Blood and Cheese, kickstarting the war for good. While she is unable to maintain control of the city, driving her reign to the ground and dying an ultimately defeated and gruesome death, he achieves a final triumph by killing his enemy and leaves the singers wondering if he ever died at all, while his abandonment of her and role in her downfall is not emphasized in the slightest. Nor is Rhaenyra allowed a single moment of singular glory: her takeover of King’s Landing is explicitly with him by her side, and culminates in his crowning of her. And I really cannot say this enough: none of this is propaganda or based solely on in-universe sexism. It is simply GRRM’S clear narrative bias that favors Daemon at Rhaenyra’s expense. The misogyny of it all is embarrassing.

Narratively, the Greens suffer the most from this. All of them are caricatures meant to oppose the Blacks rather than individual characters in their own right. While this is evident with every single one of them (particularly Aegon II, the other claimant of the throne, and Alicent, the most important woman on her side), nowhere is the bias more evident than the manner in which the narrative depicts Daemon compared to his nephew, Aemond Targaryen. Both of them are clearly meant to be narrative parallels: second sons, dangerous swordsmen, the heavy-hitting wildcards of the war, one of them claiming Visenya’s dragon and the other one possessing Visenya’s sword. Both of them committed heinous atrocities on equal proportion, the only difference being that Daemon lived longer and thus had the time to commit more. Yet the way they are portrayed could not be more different: Aemond is rightfully depicted as war criminal and a murderer, and is both one-dimensional and over-the-top in his awfulness; Daemon, on the other hand, has far more pagetime, is explored in far more detail, and has all his crimes contextualized as part of his glorified and non-existent “grey morality”. (And while this is not a direct criticism, it’s also a little weird that while Aemond is justifiably called Kinslayer, Daemon is not, despite the fact that he was responsible the death of his young grand-nephew, a suspect for the death of his good-brother, and the eventual killer of Aemond himself.) The narrative rightfully condemns one while painting the other as someone who was “made of light and darkness in equal parts”. The bias is very, very evident.

This culminates in Daemon’s final scene: The Battle above the God’s Eye. I get the symbolism: he killed a younger allegory of himself, Satan slayed his son, the vicious circle has ended, etc, etc. It makes symbolic sense. But the fact remains that this gives Daemon a final triumph and narrative glorification that he of all people did not deserve, that no other player of the Dance received. This is emphasized by the way the duel was described: two important people fought, two important people died, and yet it was called “Prince Daemon’s last battle”, which really tells you all you need to know. The duel was meant for Daemon; Aemond existed solely to be his mirror and his final opponent.

(I’d also like to point out that a 50-year old man challenging his barely 20-year old nephew and winning against him is nowhere near as glorious or awe-inspiring as the book or its fans make it out to seem, but is in fact one of the most pathetically embarrassing things I've ever read about. I also don’t think it was realistic at all, and would have made more symbolic and literal sense for both of them to mutually kill the other. But that would result in GRRM’s favourite character getting the equal end of the stick for once, which is probably why it didn't happen)

Basically - Daemon Targaryen was the Gary Stu of his age, and I despise everything about him

#asoiaf #hotd #fire and blood #anti daemon #anti daemon targaryen #anti daemon stans #kinda #fire and blood critical #queue #aemond targaryen #it's so frustrating because i really enjoy morally grey unpredictable characters (especially when they're charismatic)#but daemon is not one of them lmao #mine

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lemonhemlock · 1 year

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One thing I noticed when I was rewatching HOTD was how inconsiderate Rhaenyra can be, and how it almost always leads back to Daemon's grooming of her. Like with the whole situationship between her and Criston and how she was unintentionally inconsiderate with proposing to Criston that he'd be her paramour. It bothered me with how callous she was about it, and how easy it was for her to just forget about him and essentially treat their relationship like it was nothing.

Same thing with Harwin. She rants to Daemon about how, without him, her life has been a droll tragedy. Now granted she did say that she did love Harwin, but to a casual viewer, it would seem like she only liked him because he made her feel desired. Look how quickly she mourned for him and moved and married Daemon. It just seems like Harwin didn't mean much to her, and that he was just a substitute for the man she really wanted. The same man whose advice she should not be taking or listening to. Daemon is not someone she should be advised by because he is in no position to be giving her solid advice seeing as he's been disinherited (even though Viserys never regarded him as his heir), exiled a million times, and has no real place in this world. He's a King without a country. That's why he gets bored so quickly when he's in a domesticated setting.

hi there, forgive me for taking this long to answer, hectic couple of months :))

you know, i generally found rhaenyra a rude person and was kind of surprised that no one picked up on this. she is so rude at storm's end, too.

yeah, honestly, not a good look for her. she is not really shown to mourn harwin in any significant way. jace is more upset than she is. not to excessively dunk on her here, but i feel like most of the blame for this comes from the time-jumps. the rhaewin relationship positively looks like a footnote; they really could have used more interaction.

The same man whose advice she should not be taking or listening to. Daemon is not someone she should be advised by because he is in no position to be giving her solid advice seeing as he's been disinherited (even though Viserys never regarded him as his heir), exiled a million times, and has no real place in this world. He's a King without a country. That's why he gets bored so quickly when he's in a domesticated setting.

preach! daemon can wield a sword and fly a dragon, but he really comes across as politically-incompetent. he spends his entire life creating chaos around him and alienating potential allies.

awesomefan asked: People think he wouldn't have gotten bored with Rhaenyra like he did with Laena when it's like no he would have gotten bored with her too. When Rhaenyra was young it was all about the chase, the forbidden fruit, pissing Viserys off, and temptation. Now that he has her and she was the one doing the chasing (cause of his grooming) the thrill is gone. Especially seeing as they did absolutely nothing for 6 years but sit their asses on Dragonstone making up for lost time. It would have eventually bored him and he would've needed something to do. This is why he seems so "alive" or "out of character" when the war starts because he finally has something he can do. Something that he's good at. It's why at the end of the story he not only cheats on Rhaenyra with Nettles, but he also abandons her, Aegon, Baela, and Rhaena all so he could go out in a blaze of glory against Aemond. He refused to return to Rhaenyra (who's lost her mind at this point) and be her solider/consort because that's not who he is. He wants to fight and go out like a warrior. He wants to bring glory back to the House of the Dragon, and he can't do that by going back to Rhaenyra. It's also why he cheats on her with Nettles because she's special. She is a girl of non-Valyrian descent that was able to claim a wild dragon just by using her brain and the ways of the old shepherds of Valyria. She intrigues him and challenges his ideology of Valyrian supremacy and Targaryen exceptionalism. Overall, Daemyra fangirls needed to stop romanticizing their relationship thinking that their story has a happy ending and that he died for his Queen. Everything that Daemon has done has been for himself, and as we've seen, Rhaenyra is not the exception to his selfish, violent, abusive actions.

i agree with most of this, but to be perfectly honest, there's something about daemon's riverlands storyline that bugs me. we criticize aemond for doing fuck-all to advance the war effort, but daemon also doesn't really do much in that regard either? what great military accomplishments does he have to show for other than.... landing his dragon in harrenhal at the beginning of the dance?

again, to my mind, this feels like the author didn't really know what to do with these characters past this point without complicating the overall war too much, so just decided that the solution is to have them circling each other each other in the riverlands for god-knows-how-long. the consequence of this is that they both seem to acquire chicken brains, but i wouldn't assign them too much blame for what looks like authorial fault and a good old fashioned plot hole

also unrelated but wanted to let you know that i love your profile picture! who is it?

#ask #awesomefan #anti daemon targaryen #anti daemyra #anti rhaenyra targaryen #fire and blood critical

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thewingedwolf · 1 year

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the thing i hate most in fire & blood is that Jaehaerys does shit that makes Alysanne so upset she puts herself in self imposed exile because she’s so upset about the loss of her daughters and the way Jaehaerys treats their daughters, but both times when they reconcile, it’s just Alysanne agreeing not to be mad anymore and Jaehaerys agrees to…nothing!! He never once gives up a single god damn thing to make his wife happy!! Like, Alysanne definitely could have and should have gone to Lys and gotten Saera back and told him to fuck off. She should have told Rodrick Arryn that he’s not allowed to consummate the marriage for several years, until Daella is older and can handle a pregnancy or he’d face Silverwing (bc what is the point of having a dragon that helps you keep your throne if you don’t use it to protect your daughters when your husband refuses!!!!). She should have watched Viserra’s drinking closer and actually attempted to find a match that made Viserra happy. Some of it is at her feet but like, people just tell them “you should make up” and his idea of it is “babe stop being mad at me” LIKE THIS IS YOUR GOOD TARGARYEN KING????? THIS NASTIE MISOGYNIST IS WHO DANY SHOULD EMULATE??????

#THE WORST #anti jaehaerys targaryen #anti targ restoration #pls i just wanna get to the dance already i hate jaehaerys so much 😭😭😭#rani liveblogs asoiaf #like i sure HOPE dany whose claim is the exact claim jaehaerys gleefully puts the side more than once in targ women #would look at his rule and be like ‘wow he kinda hated women i should rethink some of those policies’ smh #and there’s not like. a lot of interesting info or good writing. don’t always love tyrion’s chapters but there is interesting prose & use of #metaphors and imagery. his despair during the trial is so well done. this is just kinda there. bleh #fire and blood critical

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greenmeanqueen · 1 year

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i know this has probably been talked about before, but i can’t get out of my head how much rhænyra’s desire for the throne is based on what was impressed on her to want, just like with otto and alicent.

and we see time and time again that rhænyra… doesn’t really know how to rule in a way that keeps the peace amongst the people both high and low (maybe at one point she tried to learn, but she has become set in her ways and maybe she can recognize that), but she’s gonna keep pushing for the throne because her dad told her it was meant to be hers. she wants it without really understanding what it means to have. i think this all is just as plausible when considering book canon as well as show canon.

something something fathers and daughters something something

#basically i don’t think she fully grasps that people’s lives are in the hands of whoever’s on the chair #anti viserys i targaryen #anti rhaenyra targaryen #not really anti just critical #fire and blood critical #hotd critical #alicent hightower #otto hightower #a gal thinks

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valkyriepegusus · 21 days

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As much as I want GRRM to finish and publish Winds of Winter, honestly I can’t even blame him for not being in any sort of rush to do so.

If I were him, and I spent like half my life writing bible sized books— with thousands of pages of additional material that is primarily focused on how the mistreatment of women and the concept of purity culture is extremely destructive and harmful, why heredity monarchies are dangerous, and how biased misogynistic men will manipulate history, only for people to unironically support male primogeniture, be proudly “bastardphobic”, rank characters based on their ability to fight, and sympathize with slavers. I would genuinely just not finish the series as a punishment like I don’t even blame him for not being eager to publish more content just for people to grossly misconstrue.

#pro daenerys #asoiaf critical #hot take #game of thrones critical #team black #pro rhaenyra #queen daenerys #daenerys stormborn #daenerys appreciation #Daenerys is Azor Ahai #daenerys targaryen #pro rhaenyra targaryen #queen rhaenyra #anti team green #anti team green stans #fire and blood

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rhaenin-time · 1 month

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Among the reasons I don't trust that the writers of HotD understand the story they're trying to tell is that even with the baffling changes made to darken his character, Daemon is the only one talking sense in Episode 10 and yet it's clear the writers don't want you to think that.

#I will disagree with the people who say that Rhaenyra should have taken Otto prisoner though #as he did have the rights of an envoy and Rhaenyra would and should have respected that #you know unlike the Greens #hotd critical #hotd #team black #fire and blood #anti team green #rhaenyra targaryen #daemon targeryan

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meadowsofmay · 1 month

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i am getting into the xhorhas arc now but — i still can't fucking believe that the mighty nein stole a pirate ship by accidentally killing its crew (except for one guy) because they just wanted to talk to this one guy (they abducted said guy), decided to go fuck where and engage in relationship with the powerful pirate who has an obsession with a god, became full fledged pirates for a while, docked on the pirate island, got banned from said pirate island after a day, barely surviving, and then renamed a famous pirate ship that they've kept as the balleater.

what a fucking arc that was, holy shit

#may watches the mighty nein #this was insane #breaking into avantika's quarters #caleb and nott high on some blood fed fruits #uk'otoa lore #fjord and caleb just whatever the fuck these two had going on #THE BLOOD PACT #wall of fire and THE FIRST COUNTERSPELL #ohhh i loved it honestly #now onto enemies lines #the mighty nein #fjord stone #beauregard lionett #caleb widogast #nott the brave #jester lavorre #caduceus clay #yasha nydoorin #critical role

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pterodactylterrace · 16 days

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“The Blacks won because it’s Rhaenyra’s bloodline that continues on.”

Ok, first of all, Aegon II made Aegon III his heir. Rhaenyra was dragon chow by then. Rhaenyra wanted the iron throne more than anything else, and she only held power for 6 months before the small folk had enough of her bullshit. Six months. She managed to rule for half a year before she was overthrown, not by a usurper, but by her own people. Clearly, not a good ruler if you can’t even make it a year without getting chased out of your castle.

Second, Rhaenyra’s bloodline managed to fumble the ball two feet from the finish line. It started with Aegon the Unworthy and it ended with the mad king being overthrown just before the long night. Just one more generation was all they needed to last, and they fucked everything up so bad it put the entire world of men at risk. That… that takes skill. You have to actively TRY to fuck up that much.

After the conquest, there was noted to be one “good” king, and that was Jaehaerys. Between conquest and dance, Jaehaerys was noted as being a good, wise king. Aenys managed to have a mob trap his oldest two children in a distant castle right before he died. Then Maegor stepped in. He may have been decent if it weren’t for the brain damage. Most of the things he did before the battle on the hill were either rumors or just not that bad. He was also very against Kinslaying. Imo, one of the worst things he did was punish everyone involved in the Kinslaying in The Eyrie. Seems kind of strange he would dole out such a harsh punishment only to then kill his nephew in a very one sided dragon battle. That was the first thing he did after he woke up, though. Considering he had such a drastic change in personality, we can’t say how his rule would have been otherwise.

After Maegor’s death, Jaehaerys steps in. You know what made him a good, worthy king? Not the fact that he was a male, or could fight, or held the bloodline, or even that he rode the bronze fury. It was because he listened to the council of his queen. Alysanne was the real MVP of his reign. She did more for women’s rights than any other queen. She listened to her people. That is the mark of a good ruler. Walk softly, but carry a big stick. Know when to speak and when to listen.

People who know they have power and control don’t need to constantly remind others. They know. It’s not necessary to maim or murder people for speaking the truth, yet Viserys and Rhaenyra do just that.

When Saera majorly fucked up, they handled it. Not the way Alysanne wanted, by the way. She was sent to apprentice with the Silent Sisters just for sleeping with men while not married. Yet Rhaenyra can have 3 obvious bastards, insult the house with the largest naval force and prove to the entire kingdom that her words mean nothing, and Viserys still declares anyone who calls the strong boys bastards would lose their tongue.

Sorry, what? The Valaryons are one of the richest houses in the realm. They control most of the naval fleet. Maybe don’t make their son a cuckold?

“They had an open marriage!”

NO ONE ELSE KNOWS THAT. To the court and the small folk, Rhaenyra promised to be faithful to Laenor in front of the eyes of the gods, and she very obviously didn’t keep that vow. Why should they trust anything she says as Queen if she can’t even do something as simple as not birthing bastards? That’s what most people don’t realize in the bastard debate.

Whether you can prove it or not, the strong boys don’t look like either of their alleged parents. Like, at all. Even Aegon’s drunk ass could tell shit didn’t add up. Commoners are not going to be any different. They are going to know, and whether they can say it or not, it will still affect how they feel towards her. Can’t keep your marriage vows, why should I believe that you have my best interest at heart?

Because she doesn’t. She is a horrible ruler that lasted less than a year before the small folk rose up and drove her out. She feasted while they starved. It’s that self centered mentality that taints the bloodline and leads to The Unworthy.

Clearly no one learned about not having bastards, and this mofo decided to legitimize them on his death bed. Wasn’t going to be his problem, now was it? He died, someone else has to clean up his mess.

Hmm, not knowing how to clean up your own bastard mess, sounds familiar… oh, like Rhaenyra forcing her father to crawl from his death bed to make sure no one said mean (and true) things about her.

So I’m sorry, what were people saying about her being a good ruler? ‘Cause everywhere I look, I see another reason she should not have ascended the throne.

#hotd critical #hotd thoughts #fire and blood spoilers #anti rhaenyra targaryen #anti team black

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atopvisenyashill · 4 months

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Killing Jaehaera off was completely unnecessary and it would've been better if she was the mother of Aegon III's kids.

I personally would have loved it he had married Jaehaera and Daenaera because I think there's room in the narrative for both girls.

I think the reason George changed it (besides getting invested in the Velaryons as he wrote out the backstory) was because he wanted some sort of commentary on the lasting legacy of the Dance - Aegon usurps his sister and kicks off a whole violent war for the throne, only for his line to end with a mad little girl, and then die off completely. Rhaenyra lets revenge color her actions during the war and adds to the death, misery, and escalation of violence all so her line can descend from her only for the history books to record that they descend from Daemon, and there’s nothing Aegon III can do to change it. In a way, despite everything, the lines of both Rhaenyra and Aegon end with them. This war that claimed the lives of their children, their lovers, their families, was completely fruitless and useless; all that's left at the end is orphans, and history books that will call Aegon and Rhaenyra both usurpers. It's very sad commentary, for sure, but I get why it was so important to George to kill Jaehaera off (to a certain extent). It's just he did it in the most George way possible lmao and it doesn't hit the way I think he intended it to.

But it could have! Which is so frustrating! He could have 100% had them both in the narrative easily - just have Daenaera be a lady of the court and a friend of Jaehaera's! Jaehaera can take in Daenaera as a lady to help smooth things over with that branch of the Velaryons (who are probably still pissed off because Alyn is a bastard and everyone in Westeros hates Baela for doing #HotGirlShit). Jaehaera is mother to Daeron, Baelor, and Daena, and kills herself/is murdered right after Daena is born. I think having a daughter of her own is an interesting trigger for her trauma - like, your husband having the same cursed name as your father who died miserable and alone, with only you for family, and then watching your husband hold your first daughter? More than enough to trigger an episode, and leave it vague as whether she threw herself onto the spikes or someone simply took advantage of her being scared and alone & pushed her.

Maiden’s Day happens and there's a lot of nerves because the last time the King got remarried, the Dance happened. Different circumstances because Aegon has two sons, to be sure, but I'm positive half the realm is thinking "what if he chooses wrong and we get another Otto Hightower." Baela and Rhaena present Aegon’s new bride, then point to the beautiful but quiet, also grieving Daenaera Velaryon, and Aegon just accepts it because he knows Daenaera won’t oppose Jaehaera’s children (they were friends, also Daenaera is now scarred by the violence of Jaehaera’s death). Daenaera is as uninterested in him as he is in her; the twins present a way for him to remarry without forcing him out of his comfort zone (which neither Aegon nor Jaehaera ever liked to be) while backing Daenaera into an offer she can’t refuse. Continuing on the use of traumatized women as pawns, the twins clawing for their own power and relevancy as the Regents, Small Council, and now even Aegon’s sons steal it away from them, a move that is as “girlboss” esque for them as it horrifying for Daenaera. This way, you still get the Blackfyres descending from Jaehaera (and the Greens), you get the Velaryons in there more, you get Maiden's Day and Daenaera.

I think this scenario - where Jaehaera is mother to Daena and the Blackfyres, and Daenaera to the two youngest girls - doesn't make a huge difference in the grand plan, BUT it does make some things more interesting. It adds a really interesting echo from Viserys I and Rhaenyra’s children to Aegon’s - how easily these bonds between half siblings can be turned sour if only their lives are just a bit different. Daena, daughter of Jaehaera, falling to the generational Targaryen curses of dying young, of accidentally kicking off a succession crisis simply because she desired sexual agency. Elaena, daughter of Daenaera, escaping these curses through her politicking, her skill, siding against the nephew she adores and helped raise to try to escape Daena and Jaehaera’s fates. Not to mention having Aegon II’s line end with his daughter, then morph into the usurping Blackfyres is a great narrative choice!

It’s all right there!! The themes!!! It all goes back and back, this family enacting continent destroying violence against each other all for the privilege of sitting on that ugly, spiky chair. But no we get Daenaera the hot six year old instead. SmFh.

#asks #fire and blood critical #grrm critical #jaehaera targaryen #daenaera velaryon #in my mind daenaera is reclusive and pious and a lesbian which is why aegon liked her. doesn't talk preferred jaehaera to him. like.#sure i'll marry the glorified nanny my sisters got me why not. at least she already likes my kids.#naerys turns to the seven because its what daenaera taught her. 'if you need to go away in your mind picture the sept and pray.'

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duxbelisarius · 1 year

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The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Master Post)

For anyone interested in following this series, I’ve made this post to catalogue all of my analyses in one place and will update it as I go.

I’ve also uploaded this series to AO3, so if you’re interested in reading the more polished versions of these posts, here’s the link!

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 1)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 2)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 3)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 4)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 5)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 6)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 7)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 8)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 9)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 10)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 11)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 12)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Pt. 13)

The Dance of the Dragons: A Military Analysis (Conclusion)

#house of the dragon #hotd #team green #team black #grrm critical #fire and blood critical #asoiaf critical #asoiaf #me #duxbelisarius

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2rats1gogh · 25 days

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although i REALLY like the cast of HotD I can’t help but criticize the fact that they all are a little off for their canonical ages.

And it creates A LOT of problems.

Whenever I look at Olivia as Alicent my brain just cannot comprehend the fact that she is supposed to be the mother of Aegon, Aemond and Helaena. She looks like their older sister. I get that they were trying to go for the effect that “she was too young when she had her children” which is valid but still, she looks five years older than them at best. She is supposed to be almost 20 YEARS older than Aemond, yet in some shots of them together he looks like he’s older than her. It just makes it not really believable.

Rhaenyra is also supposed to be much much older than her siblings, yet they all also look just like three years apart. They don’t look like a woman in her mid to late thirties fighting with a man in his early twenties which is what it should’ve been. It takes away the drama and puts them on the same level.

Ewan Mitchell is amazing as Aemond but he looks so so much older than the actor who plays Luke. During Storm’s End, like many people have said, it actually looks like a grown ass man chasing a small kid, when the characters are supposed to be like four to five years apart. Where Luke is believable as a 14 year old, Aemond absolutely does NOT look 19.

Rhaenyra and Daemon also look fairly the same age because obviously there was no Daemon recast. They did a good job to make Paddy (Viserys) age throughout the years, but they kinda forgot to make Daemon age as well. And therefore Matt Smith looks the exact same in ep 1 and in ep 10, even tho these two episodes are like AT LEAST 20 years apart?? Matt Smith was in his early forties when they were filming, but by the end of season 1 Daemon is literally supposed to be in his mid to late fifties. The fact that Emma and Matt look around the same age, maybe having a 5 year age gap max, makes many people forget that they are two fully different generations of people, being around 20 years apart in the show, and hypothetically could’ve been father and daughter.

And obviously Laena. Other people have already talked about this, but I also find it super weird that the show tried to convince us that Laena went from (1) to (2) in like, i don’t know, two years maybe? And then after a timeskip of only like one decade, she suddenly looks like she aged 20 years? The actress is literally older than Emma, and Laena is supposed to be younger than Rhaenyra.

It just doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t really have a problem with changing some of the characters’ ages, but you have to consider casting the right actors as well. They did a fairly good job when adapting Game of Thrones, because they kinda aged up everyone and kept the same actors without having any timeskips. The only exceptions are probably characters like Brienne, because although I LOVE Gwendoline Christie, Brienne should’ve been a literal teenager.

#house of the dragon #hotd #team green #pro team green #anti team black #anti team black stans #hotd analysis #hotd critical #asoiaf #fire and blood #house targaryen

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lemonhemlock · 1 year

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Grrm was pro black but anti rhaenyra considering how all of her children died with the exception of those fathered by Daemon.

Aegon's children all of them died including his bastard gaemon , and all of them died horrific deaths, he was crippled, burnt and died poisoned.

Rhaenyra's strong children died in meaningless and useless ways , even her dragon who was described as fat , spoiled and lazy and has the color of piss . died in the most pathetic way possible for a dragon.

and she herself died in the most pathetic and cruelest way possible while being remembered as Maegor with tits the equivalent of Hi*ler with tits , also her rule has made westros 1000x more misgonystic than before .

Daemon on the other hand got a heroic death , putting his sword through the eye of the anime villain named Aemond , saving the people of the riverlands from this genocidal maniac in the most badass way jumping off his dragon and sacrificing himself. All of his children from multiple women survived. Baela faced sunfyre yet she managed somehow to deal fatal injuries to him and was the cause of his death, strangely Neither sunfyre or aegon managed to kill her . Aegon shattered his legs and she just got few burns . Aegon iii somehow managed to survive although I can't really see why Aegon ii or any of the greens supporters were able or willing to kill him and finish the war . Viserys and rhaena survived and lived a long life. Daemon unlike rhaenyra was beloved by many

Daemon's dragon is one of coolest dragons called the bloody worm and one of the strongest and one of the fiercest dragons out there. This lizard somehow managed to kill the largest dragon of her time Vhaegar. Strangely Rhaenyra's bloodline didn't continue from her son jaecerys who is by all the accounts would make a good king. Her bloodline only continue through her children from Daemon . And now I'm sure 100% if Daemon managed somehow to impregnate Aegon , Aegon's child from daemon will 1000000% survive. The dance of dragons instead of being an epic and tragic tale about how the mythical dragons went to extinct . It's actually just a boring and cringe Daemon's fanfic.

Pretty much this - Rhaenyra is quite punished by the narrative for her sins, but Daemon gets off scot free, although he is way more despicable than she is. George lets two of her children live, but only because she shares them with Daemon. 🙄 Meanwhile they refuse to acknowledge their own mother as Queen - Aegon numbers himself as III, following II, therefore acknowledging our Aegon as a legitimate King. Whereas Rhaenyra is very much not considered a ruling monarch within Westerosi historiography, even though both Aegon III and Viserys II had the power to make that change at some point. Viserys II also had the audacity to pass over the claims of his three nieces by resorting to legal arguments that invalidated his mother's entire play for the throne. I wonder what Rhaenyra would have to say about all this.

This may prove an unpopular opinion, but it annoys me how all of Daemon's children get to live, whereas all the others meet gruesome ends. There's no reason for anyone other than Aegon III to live. (In fact, in the AGOT annexes, Viserys II was Aegon III's son, not brother, and no mention of Baela & Rhaena). Jaehaera lives for a little while, but even so, it's a 4-to-1 ratio that soon turns into 4-to-0. Rhaena even gets this hopeful narrative of hatching the last living dragon, but to what end? That dragon is going to live a very short life because it's never heard from again & George needs all the dragons to die, exclusively, so Morning either died during Rhaena's lifetime or shortly after her death? What's the point? She and her sister also get that distasteful Maiden's Day Cattle Show gotcha-moment with Daenaera. The Daemon favouritism is just beyond. I'm sorry, but it does feel like wish fulfilment fanfiction. I'm hard-pressed to find a Targaryen I like from this point on in the family tree.

And now I'm sure 100% if Daemon managed somehow to impregnate Aegon , Aegon's child from daemon will 1000000% survive.

This took me out. 😂 Damn, I want Egg to live so much I'd be tempted to accept this devil's covenant. Exorcist-style mpreg but the greens get to win at the end?

#ask #anon #anti daemon targaryen #anti rhaenyra targaryen #daemon's daughters survive with barely a scratch yet the green women are brutalized and unceremoniously ejected from the narrative 🙄#i'm supposed to cheer for that?#fire and blood vol. i #fire and blood critical

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