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indigomarina · 6 months

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Fanfic Idea

Ugh! I had this idea to write a fic about what-if Marinette was evil instead of Gabriel! But now with the whole Shadybug and Claw Noir special coming, I feel I have to wait, so things like 'Good Gabriel's good guy name' and what he calls who makes heroes (currently I'm calling them champion but I don't know anything) are more accurate to the show!

Plot

Essentially, it would've been in this universe, so no Shadybug. Instead, her name would've been Miss Fortune (I've been in this fandom since the beginning, I've always wanted that name to be canon). She takes the image of a shy sweet girl Marinette Dupain-Cheng but when things don't go her way, she becomes Miss Fortune.

Luckily, Paris has a hero in its corner, the amazing Chat Noir who battles the evil Miss Fortune. However, he also has an ally in the form of Papillon, a mysterious benefactor who helps him by sending him champions.

Characters

Adrien will still be our innocent sunshine child, but he has a whole lot more on his shoulders, trying to stop Miss Fortune from wrecking havoc and eventually becoming Guardian.

As Chat Noir, he and the champion have to work together to fight Miss Fortune. I have this system where Miss Fortune has a anti-charm (like Anti-bug) and if the two destroy it, the world healing begins.

Alya is still how she is in the show. Except she despises Miss Fortune. Her blog is towards Chat instead and she insults Miss Fortune anyway she can. She wants to rid the world of Miss Fortune, unaware she's her best friend.

Chloe would be a much better person (she still has some of her original flaws, so she would be not be like Zoe), liking Adrien like a brother and treating Sabrina like a real friend. Of course, Marinette doesn't see their relationship as platonic so she targets her. This version of Anti-Bug would've have Papillon give Chloe the power of the original Ladybug miraculous until Chat decides to give her the bee miraculous to use.

Lila would've been a person who always told the truth and while not all of her stories from canon were true, she does have some real amazing tales. This attracts Adrien to her (again platonically) much to Marinette's chagrin. One story is that Miss Fortune stole her bag once and Chat Noir got it back for her. Marinette thinks Lila is lying and Chat doesn't remember Lila specifically but he does remember giving someone back their bag.

So she briefly becomes Miss Fortune to embarrass her but this just inspires her to become Volpina and her and Chat briefly work together to take her down.

Gabriel is a much better father here! He's still busy and Emilie is still dead. But he's allowed Adrien to go to school and have a less stricter lifestyle. He still misses his wife but goes on a more healthier path instead and tries to move on while helping Chat Noir as Papillon.

Zoe would've been a person who acted nice when in reality, she's a massive witch. She still has feelings for Marinette but Marinette takes advantage of these feeling instead. She assist Miss Fortune also, not liking when things don't go her way. Half of Chloe becoming akumatized episodes would be Chloe either needing the bee miraculous or her helping Chat as a champion. Zoe would play dumb when confronted but some people start seeing the truth through her and Marinette's lies.

Shipping

So Marinette likes Adrien to disturbing degrees. Finding her strange since kindergarten, Adrien at best can be civil towards her. In the Animan episode of this AU, he would've weirded out by Nino's crush on her but would've still helped him, because he's a good friend and he feels he would be a good influence of her.

He and Miss Fortune jokingly flirt with each other sometimes, but they really hate each other with a fiery passion.

Adrien is bisexual in this fic. Who is Adrien's partner? Luka. Instead of liking Marinette, he takes a shining to Adrien instead. Adrien is smitten as both himself and Chat Noir. Luka would be a frequent character in season 1. Often times, Chloe and Juleka (and sometimes Nino) would try pairing them together frequently.

Marinette used to have a crush to Luka and he used to give her a chance but with all the lying and her accidently making it clear she likes Adrien, he also can now only be civil to her.

Chloe is also bisexual. Nathaniel initially has feelings for her instead of Marinette in 'Evilluastor'. Season 1 would plenty of cute moments. Not sure I should write whether they broke up but are on good terms or have them be in a poly relationship with Marc and Kagami.

Down the line, Chloe gains feelings for Kagami. Marinette in this AU, never lets go of her mean feelings for Kagami and instead Kagami enters the scavenger hunt in 'Ikati Gozen' with Chloe, causing the two to bond. Kagami never has feelings for Adrien (but I'll say it again, Marinette doesn't see it that way).

That all I have to write, bye!

#marinette salt #miraculous ladybug #shadybug and claw noir #fanfiction #lukadrien #Evil Zoe #zoe lee salt #Yandere Marinette #adrien deserves better #chlonath #marcnath #chlogami #lukadrian #zoenette #chloe deserves better

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miraculousdeservesbetter2024 · 11 months

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It’s something that Thomas thinks we’re obligated to like Zoe and think that she’s SUPERIOR to Chloe just for the mere fact that “she’s sweet”, and anyone who doesn’t “just doesn’t get it”.

But…

What has Zoe REALLY done to be entitled to our love?

Let’s just take away Chloe from this for a sec, just a sec, seriously. What really IS IT about Zoe that’s any better than Chloe, other than being sweet?

Listen, I LOVE a good sweet, caring, nice and kind character! I really do (probably even my favourite kind), but even I KNOW that there’s more to making a great character other than making them “sweet”. There’s more positive personality traits in the world than just being nice, especially when “being nice” should be the bare minimum? As bland as the miraclass is, they DO have their own personalities. It might not be complex, but they DO have one. Hell, EVEN SABRINA AND LUKA have more personality than Zoe does.

Giving a bland character EVERYTHING on a silver patter, especially if they just arrived in a series, is NOT character development nor adding character depth. And this is not me trying to put Zoe in a bad light or anything! I just legitimately want to know what’s so special about her for her to deserve automatic praise??? If he wants us to like Zoe, then we at least deserve to have something more from her than her just “being nice” and being a Chloe replacement.

Her being Marinette 2.0. is not enough.

#zoe lee #Zoe Lee salt #chloe deserves better #zoe deserves better #thomas astruc #mlb critical #ml critical #mlb salt #ml salt #miraculous ladybug #ml #mlb #miraculous tales of ladybug and chat noir #miraculous #miraculousbeezcentral #bee miraculous #ml vesperia #vesperia salt

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theerurishipper · 7 months

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do you think Zoe as a character is a necessary for the plot?

I lover her design but as far I can see her character doesn't seems to be necessary for the story, at all. I thought at first she'd be a challenge for Chloe to finally become better, especially after the play they did in Queen Banana. I thought with Chloe break of her friendship with Adrien that would be the time for her to slide in and try to be a sister/friend for her which will create a positive characrer development for Chloe.

But as the story progress I feel like she doesn't seems like to make impact on Chloe's life and it seems like she doesn't even interact with Chloe much, she instead hang out with Marinette and end up become another generic character added for the sake for increasing Marinette's harem and I don't know, a better bee holder who wouldn't talk back to Ladybug or demanding thing from her perhaps? Because this show has allergies toward character who challenge Marinette's morality.

I mean if the reason why they added Zoe is just for the sake for a new bee holder, I don't see a reason why they can't use Aurore or Mirriele since they already have unique model. Being from different class doesn't stop Marc to be a miraculous holder after all. If she's added for the sake of lesbian representation, we have JuleRose already. So why is she here?

Honestly? Zoe is one of the most useless characters in the show. She only really exists so that the writers can fit her into whatever role they need to progress the plot, because she doesn't have any established characterization. I do like her design, but that's really about all I can say. She's just such a non-entity to me.

Her first episode was actually quite interesting to me personally. A character who tries to hide her true self and lies in order to be accepted by her peers? Interesting stuff! I dig characters like that. Her being all nice and friendly with Marinette at first and then switching instantly to becoming mean and cruel? How intriguing! What a good way to establish a character! This could be the start of a really good character journey in which Zoe learns that she doesn't have to put on these roles to be accepted, culminating with her earning the Bee Miraculous as a fully established character!

But there was no character arc. There was no arc, no nothing she just... got over it thanks to one speech and got the Bee Miraculous in the next episode and then descended into obscurity. She could have been so much. Imagine how it could have been if we had gotten to explore her character. Like, maybe she could have caused the akuma on her first day instead of being the one to be akumatized. This could have set up everyone else disliking her while leaving Marinette wondering why she seems so different from before, and it could have started Zoe off on the path of realizing she didn't want to put on an act to please bad people and be accepted by them because she didn't want to hurt other people, actually.

Over the course of the season, maybe we could learn about what exactly happened in her old school through a proper backstory and not just an exposition dump. We could learn about why she is the way she through exploring her relationships with her father and her mother. We could have her grow through her interactions with others and her observing Marinette with her friends, and we could have watched her slowly realize that she maybe doesn't want to put on an act anymore and that she just wants to be accepted for herself. This way, we could actually get to see her act this way and understand why she is the way she is, and have her motivation be revealed in a natural and compelling manner, instead of just having it all be dumped onto us in her debut episode.

Then we could have the obligatory akuma, which lets Marinette know that there's more to Zoe after all. Maybe Marinette tries to reach out to Zoe after that. Maybe this leads to Zoe learning what real and true friendships are really like and leads to her finding people whom she can be herself with and who will accept her unconditionally. Maybe we could actually see her hanging out and bonding with everyone and actually watch the scenes with stuff like Rose and Juleka helping her dye her hair instead of it being relegated to an end-of-the-episode montage. They could have used those sneakers of hers more. Those were an interesting and compelling aspect of her character, considering the fact that she would write down the nice things people said about her on it. Maybe we could have a scene of her doing that with her new friends. And maybe after this, she gets the Bee Miraculous, and being able to help Ladybug like this inspires her to help others the way Marinette helped her, which makes her reach out to Chloe, thus letting her true self shine through completely, and this could also prompt a gradual change in Chloe.

I'm just throwing out some scenarios here and I don't claim that I'll do a better job of anything, but I really do think that the reason Zoe's character suffers is because of the abysmal pacing. They set up something interesting with her and then resolved it in one episode, which made her character dull and boring for any other time she's on screen. If they had stretched it out over the course of the season, she would have been way more interesting. As it is, she has nothing going for her.

From a writing perspective, Zoe has the most generic personality ever. She's nice and kind, just like every other character in the show. Any interesting facets to her character or any meaningful conflict she could have faced is fixed in her introductory episode and never seen again, and she herself only ever appears in the background of other episodes along with the rest of Marinette's classmates, contributing nothing of value. Her relationship with Chloe and her promise to always love her? Forgotten. Her conflict about not wanting to put on an act? Somehow, she just... got over it in one day and was always just her authentic self from then on. Like, name one character trait about Zoe that you can't say about anyone else. Even the rest of the class, obscure as they are, have more defined personalities and quirks than she does.

Zoe is literally just there, and the writers pity her sometimes, so they give her stuff to do. And you can't really say any of them don't make sense for her character, because she doesn't really have one beyond the base traits of nice and good. So you need a replacement Chat Noir? Zoe. Need representation? Zoe. There's no real reason for any of this to be her, it just happens to be her... because. Like you said, this could have been done by characters who were already here. We could have had our lesbian rep from Julerose, we could have had Nino for the Black Cat. There's nothing of value that Zoe as a character brings to any of these things, it just so happens to be her because she has nothing else going for her, and because her personality is so underdeveloped and practically non-existent that anything goes. And also Kagami would have been a better choice for both of these things no seriously this is Kagami erasure this is Kagami slander justice for Kagami.

And it really does suck, because Zoe could have been an interesting character. Her character premise was genuinely compelling. But then she just got reduced to another classmate who hangs around helping Marinette confess and to another one of Ladybug's team. All her scenes are just comparing her to Chloe and going "oh Chloe bad Zoe good." There is nothing Zoe has going on for herself. She's really just there to be a replacement for Queen Bee. And this would have been fine if the writing organically and naturally inserted her into the role by fleshing out her character and relationships with Marinette/everyone else. But she has virtually no development or character and most of her scenes are used to beat it down our skulls that Chloe is Evil and Zoe is Good, so root for Zoe, guyz!

They are so insistent on shoving the Zoe is the Good Chloe agenda down our throats that they have characters act OOC just for that. Somehow, being talked down to in front of the school doesn't make Marinette doubt Zoe in any way, shape or form. Instead, the blame is placed on Chloe for corrupting her. Andre suddenly decides to grow a spine and stop enabling his daughter, and once again Zoe is supported and praised and Chloe is condemned (I'm not saying it was wrong for Chloe to be told off, just that it coming from Andre of all people just makes it part of the problem because it's so OOC). They even had Plagg go out of his way to compliment Vesperia over Queen Bee like, five seconds after he's seen her for the first time, even though Plagg never compliments anyone so quickly or so much, not even Adrien. They had Plagg spend the whole of Deflagration kissing Zoe's feet and praising her constantly even though he would never do so while he offers to Cataclysm Chloe! He would not fucking say that.

Honestly, when it comes to others interacting with Zoe and the conversation actually being about her instead of about Marinette, it just results in more comparisons to Chloe and how Zoe is sooooooo much better than her. Even the episode focusing on Zoe and her feelings has a Chloe subplot that basically takes over the whole thing so that they can be compared.

And I am self-admittedly not a Chloe stan. I am not particularly fond of her. But I also don't like being told what to think, and I don't like how the narrative tries so hard to make us hate Chloe and like Zoe without developing either of them or letting us come to our own conclusions. Zoe isn't given anything of her own. Either she is being whatever the writers want her to be or she is being Chloe but Good or she is being Marinette's newest wingman. They could have explored so much about her. They could have fleshed out her struggles and her backstory. They could have done something with that set up in Queen Banana between Zoe and Chloe's relationship. They could have explored Zoe's new relationships (the Zoe/Lila parallels practically write themselves, as does the Adrien-Zoe friendship). They could have elaborated more on her dream of being an actress. But they didn't. They just kept comparing her to Chloe whenever anything had to do with her, and her character suffered for it.

Zoe could have been her own character in her own right, and she did not need to be bogged down by being forever labelled "Chloe's replacement," but the show didn't let her grow beyond that initial label and now it's pretty much stuck forever. Honestly, she deserved better.

Thank you for your ask!

#MLB #Miraculous Ladybug #Zoe Lee #Chloe Bourgeois #Queen Bee #Vesperia #Meta #My meta #Asks #ML Salt #ML Writing Salt #ML Writers Salt #Zoe Lee Salt #Zoe Salt #Classic case of good concept terrible execution

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western-magical-girl-confessions · 1 year

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“I almost never end up hating one character in a show I love, but Zoe Lee absolutely pisses me off. I hate saying it, but she is the biggest Mary-sue I’ve ever seen. She showed up out of nowhere to take Chloe’s miraculous, never does anything wrong, and is instantly loved by everyone in the cast. Plagg choosing *her* out of everyone to get the cat miraculous is insane! He knew her for maybe a week at that point, and the amount of affection he showed her was completely out of character.

It doesn’t help that she takes advantage of Chloe being abused by their mother, how are we supposed to root for someone like that?! The fact that she has the first lgbt confirmation in the show infuriates me. Rose, Juleka, Marc, and Nate have been waiting in the background for literal years. The show ruined Chloe’s character and replaced her with someone who is worse in every way. I haven’t watched the finale yet, but from what I’ve heard it only gets worse.”

#zoe salt #zoe lee salt #zoe lee #ml #mlb #ml salt #mlb salt #miraculous #miraculous fandom #miraculous ladybug #miraculous tales of ladybug and chat noir #miraculous ladybug confessions #western magical girl confessions #confession 2346

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teawinx · 1 year

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I’m feeling like being a contrarian this evening

Zoe Lee.

This isn’t a defense of Zoe, but more of a “If we’re gonna criticize her for doing X, we need to hold the others to the same standard”

Zoe’s introduction episode and subsequent hero debut episode have not left in a good place, fandom-wise. People are rightly cheesed that this nobody that we JUST met is already a respected and beloved hero in the show, despite only being a major character for two episodes.

But this is a problem that a lot of the fandom’s darlings share, yet they’re celebrated instead of hated. Outside of their akuma episodes and subsequent hero debut episodes, how relevant have Ivan, Mylène, Sabrina, Kim, Rose, Nino, Nathaniel, Marc, Max, Alix and Juleka been?

They all get introduced through their akumas, then have been background characters until they get promoted to hero. And then receive no further development post their hero episode. The one thing working against Zoe in comparison is TIME. Fandom darling Marc Anciel was introduced a Season before they became a hero, but where they relevant in between Reverser and Penalteam?

The others have a lot more time between their akumatisation(s) and hero debut, yes, but was that time used to develop them? To prove them worthy of being heroes? Not really.

Zoe just makes this problem a lot more visible and blatant. But she’s not the only one who has this problem. (This argument excludes all the OTHER problems with Zoe. Which there are a looooot of.) But like my criticism of Fu, if we’re gonna treat Zoe like crap for X we need to hold the others to the same standard.

#ml writing salt #Zoe Lee Sugar #zoe lee salt #ml salt

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copdog1234 · 1 year

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I dislike Zoe's entire existence with a passion because she feels so unnecessary and her only personality trait is just "not being Chloe". Which is. Just really boring and bad writing imo.

But, goddammit, they keep giving her really cool looking superhero outfits!!

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ml-salt-central · 2 years

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I... is there an unwritten rule in ml's designer team that says "Zoé HAS look like shit no matter what" or something? Miss Girl has had two hero forms and they're both flops, R.I.P to her

#ml salt #ml spoilers #zoe lee salt #my god green and yellow do NOT go well together no matter what #so those neon green highlights on her blonde hair look disgusting #also that lipstick is just... uh-uh! terrible

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imthepunchlord · 2 years

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How would you say, realistically, Zoe being Chloe’s younger half-sister works out? Knowing Audrey and Andre, do you think Audrey just separated from Andre temporarily and hooked up with Mr. Lee and Andre just accepted it when she got pregnant? This would’ve had to have been soon after Chloe was born for the ages to be close, too.

I don't know as the show itself isn't clear. As least, I don't remember them being clear about Zoe's set up. I know my ML buddies and I, near the time Zoe's intro ep came out, couldn't figure out if Audrey cheated on Andre or if Zoe was born before they got married?

But I'd answer no, Zoe doesn't work out, not as Chloe's half sister or even as an existing character. It really feels like she was brought in because they wanted a "good Chloe" to be Bee. Cause if Bee HAD to go to a blonde, Rose and Aurore are right there, and the latter is pretty popular for a background character. Miss Sting could've existed!

But as a character, Zoe hasn't brought anything to the table. The episodes that are supposed to be about her aren't even about her but still more about Chloe. At this point, I say she only exists to answer the fans want for a redeemed antagonistic character. As Chloe is the one fans want redeemed the most, Zoe is essentially here to be like, "Ok, here's your redeemed blonde".

Though with Zoe being a skilled actress and manipulator, you could also count her as a possible redeemed Lila too.

So Zoe is their easy out to redeeming one of the two mean girls that fans could want to see redeemed, allowing them to not redeem them, keep them bad to antagonize Marinette, and not do the work of redeeming them. Especially as Thomas just wants Chloe and Lila to stay evil and terrible.

Which like, dude, you didn't need 2 mean girls to go against Marinette; this could've flowed better if one was against Adrien or Alya.

Honestly, when Lila was brought in and implied to be "worse" than Chloe, that was their chance to start a Chloe redemption as they didn't need 2 mean girls against Marinette. But Thomas doesn't want Chloe redeemed or to have Lila expand her animosity to Marinette so... and fans really wanted a redeemed character so here's Zoe to fill that void. She looks like Chloe and has similar traits to Lila. Boom. Best of both worlds they are so brilliant.

So, of the little we have of her, I'm not seeing the point of Zoe herself existing as a character in this already big roster they have going. Not to say nothing could be done with her, but I'm not anticipating this show to really do anything either. So as of now, she's a pointless inclusion, done only so because they want the Bee to be tied to Chloe, but don't want to do the work of redeeming Chloe or even changing up her role (and Lila too).

If Zoe HAD to exist, by set up, I'd say it'd be better if Zoe and Chloe were cousins. Have Mr Lee instead be Audrey's brother, and he sends Zoe up cause maybe Paris would be better for her or she's apart of a program to study abroad idk.

I could also see potential if they were twin sisters, and Audrey took the preferred daughter with her as Chloe wasn't meeting her standards. Mindful, Style Queen and Zoe coming in would have to be tweaked/meshed together in some way, but it can be done. @nobodyfamousposts shared a possible thought of Zoe being Chloe's own Lila and merging Zoe and Lila into one as they're both skilled in manipulating people (and cut Lila out entirely), and expand on how messed up the Bourgeois are as a family and offer another reason for Chloe to get to that point as Zoe manipulated things against her; though Chloe also didn't make things easy for Zoe.

Either way, I don't think Zoe works as a character; not with her coming in so late which tells me she was unplanned for the Bourgeois family; her set up being unclear on the details, and to me, it feels like she exists to answer fans' want for a redeemed mean girl so they don't have to change their characters and their status quo or put in that effort.

She's an easy character to cut out/not include.

#ask Punchie #zoe lee salt #I'm not really salty with the character itself #more salty on plausible reasons for her existence #cause she feels like a cheap out on redeeming Chloe or Lila

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dreamwreaver · 8 months

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Someone on tiktok commented that Chloe as Queen Bee could actually fight meanwhile Vesperia is only useful for using venom. And while I am not the world's biggest Zoe fan I didn't think that was true. So I looked up the scene compilations and...

Guys, they were right.

Any and all action scenes of Vesperia is literally her running, jumping; and venoming a target. The only exception to this? Penalteam, where she... paralyzes one of the Chloes and then kicks a soccer ball. Like, she only uses the spinning top like chat uses his tail belt, it's an accessory and I know this because in most of those shots she calls venom to just her closed fist, with the top still attached at her hip.

I just, wouldn't she do better with a ranged weapon then? Wouldn't she be more useful with like... arrows? Or a wand? Why do you give her a power that requires close physical contact when she's not a physical fighter?

#miraculous ladybug #chloe bourgeois #queen bee #ml queen bee #vesperia #ml vesperia #zoe lee #zoe lee salt #I guess #well kinda

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moneeko · 1 year

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Zoe Sue?

Zoe pojawia się w Sole Chrusher w sezonie 4. I szczerze mówiąc, ta postać jest dla mnie trochę jadalna. 1) Zoe's age. I thought Audrey ditched Chloe when she was 3-4 but she might be around 5. If this goes along, Zoe should be around 10 years old and she is depicted as 13-14

2) Her character is kind of filler. Serving only to show Chloe at her worst

3) The theme of the character is just sweet and nice to the point of being bland.

Why didn't she appear in season 2 when Audrey was introduced to us? Well, Astruc hated Chloe that he wanted to make her the worst evil…. It's a very bad way to look at it with these season 5 leaks.

Zoe's character could have had a better portrayal. e.g. Zoe is introverted and helped her mother with technical performances. Or was she an errand boy for Audrey? Zoe did not know her father as she might have had her maiden name, Audrey. When she could show she would have a cool neutral disposition. She could say what she thought without paying attention to anyone's feelings. Over time, she could become emetic and spend time with Chloe saying that this idea or this outfit is not a good one. and Chloe to help Zoe be more aware of her appearance. Zoe gives me a vibe of street art but what could be a fascination with hair experiments. As if Chloe pissed her off, she once dyed her apology to correct it

It's my suggestion that Zoe had more Character.

#anti miraculous ladybug #zoe lee salt

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muggle-born-princess · 1 year

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Also it helps the merch that the queen bee design is much better than vesperia but who's counting? (It's me I'm counting, Chloe deserves better)

I love both designs, but let's be real: They gave Zoe a wasp design to symbolize her replacement.

#seriously look up the post Zoe is a wasp on here and you'll see what I mean #ml salt #zoe lee salt #vesperia salt #miraculous ladybug #zoe salt

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noirshitsuji · 1 year

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1, 3, 6 and 7 for Choose Violence ask game?

oh boy ok

i was gonna go down the funny route with this to like not offend ppl but honestly i have only been back for very little so can't really do that sdfhsdjkf

i'm gonna preface this by saying that this is very much my /impressions/ of fandom that are probably not up to date and stuff, but as this is a violence game etc etc. the only real harsh part is for 6 i'd say

(1) the character everyone gets wrong - I could pick a bunch here but Nino and Alya both as a tie I think? I'm not sure how common it is across the board rn but I feel like there are (or used to be) ways in which Alya gets reduced down to 'sassy/confident/reliable BFF' for Marinette and Nino's anxious tendencies get overlooked in favour of him being the chill/supportive BFF for Adrien

(3) screenshot or description of the worst take you've seen on tumblr - i mean. the adrien salters. you know the ones sdhfsjkf this post isn't long enough

(6) which ship fans are the most annoying? - u know. i was gonna say that anyone who fights over which side of the ls the best/gets repped the most/any kind of comparative ls discourse drives me up the wall.

but actually i will choose violence and say specifically that back in the day (i hope it is now in the past) a bunch of the ladrien shippers definitely needed to go out and touch some grass. i remember seeing ppl say things with reference to ladrien that can only be interpreted as 'salt' by someone who's never eaten anything seasoned but that have caused ppl to react with tirades of the 'woe is my ship' variety and start up discourse for nothing

(7) what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how how the fandom acts about them? - i can honestly say i hate no character but (and i know you will not like this answer coco) im not particularly attached to zoe and don't really see why ppl are. same w/ lila tbh; nothing against either of them otherwise (and i find interpretations on lila's lying tendencies interesting, even), but not my blorbos. im not against becoming attached (and i haven't watched s5 so there's space for that i assume) but yes

#asks #ml fandom salt #ladrien salt #zoe salt #lila salt #i don't really think there's anything that bad here but im tagging just in case #zoe lee salt #lila rossi salt #fandom commentary #nino lahiffe #alya cesaire #zoe lee #lila rossi

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theerurishipper · 5 months

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Imagine what would be if Lila decided to "change schools" after being "outed" in "Ladybug". Then, Zoe is introduced in "Sole Crusher", and one of episodes in "late-S4" has reveal that Zoe is actually "Lila in disguise" that even Marinette and Adrien didn't see through

This would be a way better introduction for Zoe than have her come outta nowhere in Season 4 with barely a hint to her existence in the previous three seasons. At least she'd be relevant lmao.

Thank you for your ask!

#MLB #Lila Rossi #Zoe Lee #Asks #Zoe Lee Salt #Zoe Salt

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mariproducer · 2 years

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Zoe's backstory of pretending to be someone she's not till she broke down, got majorly bullied after her real self was discovered and even sent away to live in another country by her own father makes much more sense if what she was hiding is that she's LGTBQ+ instead of just nice.

I had to reread the episode transcripts of Sole Crusher and Queen Banana to remember how the show plays out Zoe's backstory and yeah I can see where you're coming from with this, Anon.

Lines like these could be interpreted as aligning with someone wanting to be accepted as LGBTQ+. (Though its vague enough that other situations could be projected on it. Like when I first watched this episode, the msg resonated with me moreso on how I used to be forced into certain extracurriculars due to my skill set rather than picking things I wanted to do)

Unfortunately, this isn't really the canon takeaway of Zoe's backstory since her two focus episodes really like hammering home that's she so much more nicer than Chloe. She's so so nice how could you hate her?

#ask #anon #zoe lee salt #? i guess idk #i feel like theres enough vagueness the writers left here just in case they want to make her lgbt #just so they could be like ha! we totally built up to this even though zoe is still a late addition #and only has two major episodes for herself

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immaturityofthomasastruc · 9 months

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IOTA Reviews: Emotion

Hey, remember Felix? You know, that minor character who is the entire reason Gabriel has all of Ladybug's other Miraculous? The writers remembered he existed more than halfway through the season.

Let's get into the eighteenth episode of Miraculous Ladybug's fifth season: Emotion

We start off with Marinette and Adrien getting ice cream, and just like last episode, right when they're about to kiss, Adrien stops at the last second. While we don't see it, it's heavily implied that Gabriel is behind this. It turns out that Adrien has to get ready for some dance for rich people. While it has a name and I think it was mentioned in a few earlier episodes this season, it's really just some dance for rich people, so I don't care enough to remember it. Of course, all of the rich characters we know are invited, like Kagami, Chloe, Zoe, and Prince Ali. Lila, on the other hand, wasn't invited. This might sound important, but nothing happens with her until the end.

Zoe isn't going because of the “character development” she's gotten, so she offers to let Marinette wear her dress to the dance, which just so happens to be a masquerade ball. Tikki asks why Marinette even wants to go to this party she wasn't invited to, but all Marinette says is that it's so she can tell Adrien that she didn't have to keep the dance a secret from her. Why didn't Marinette just call Adrien? Because then we wouldn't have a story.

At the ball, Adrien and Kagami are the king and queen or whatever because their parents are really determined to make their ship sail even though the two show no real interest in each other (insert your own joke about the writers here), but they're interrupted by Amelie, Emilie's twin sister and Felix's mom. She's worried because her son has been missing for weeks, but Gabriel couldn't care less about the little twerp.

At the party, we get a somewhat amusing joke where Chloe fails to recognize Marinette under her mask, where Marinette not only says her name is Zoe, but her “underling” is named Chloe too. But speaking of...

Chloe: How rich are your parents? Rich? Very rich? Immensely rich? Of course, otherwise you wouldn't be here! It's too bad we can't bring out underlings with us. I'm sure these tin cans can serve properly but we can't make fun of them! (grabs a drink from a butler robot before kicking it) So lame!

Okay, did the writers just stop caring about writing convincing dialogue for Chloe? This is a problem I've noticed a lot this season. Yeah, Chloe was bad in the last four seasons, but here, she constantly talks about how Sabrina is her “underling” (Passion), or how she finds Marinete's suffering to be amusing (Derision). It's not really out of character, but it's weird how she's so much more blunt when it comes to boasting about how full of herself she is. It feels like a lot of her lines this season were meant to be placeholders for stuff the writers thought they'd change later, but then they decided to keep it in anyway. And of course to show how stuck up the other rich kids saying the same kind of stuff Chloe normally says, which is somehow less subtle social commentary than Hop Pop shouting “EAT THE RICH!”.

Adrien and Kagami talk about how they're expected to follow orders, while pretty much saying that Kagami is a Sentimonster since the camera really wants to show off her ring.

Oh wow. what does this mean? Wow, this is such a compelling mystery with so many twists and turns. I am so very invested right now.

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However, as the two talk, it's clear that Adrien isn't himself, literally.

“Adrien”: Let's leave, I dare you.

Kagami: Are you insane? We can't do that.

“Adrien”: Of course, we can. I can.

Kagami: (gasps) You'd do that?

“Adrien”: Wanna bet?

Kagami: No, we can't.

“Adrien”: See? You're not as free as you claim. Don't you think we should be able to decide our future?

I'll get back to this later.

Marinette tells “Adrien” that she loves her, but Chloe figures out that Marinette crashed a party she wasn't invited to. Of course, because this is Chloe, we're supposed to ignore how unnecessary this plan was for Marinette. Seriously, Marinette crashing the party in “Gabriel Agreste”, as illogical as it was, made sense, because they needed to stop Chloe from showing Gabriel incriminating footage of Marinette. Here, Marinette had no real reason to crash this party when all she had to do was call Adrien, and Chloe, like her or hate her, makes a good point in that she wasn't invited. But again, since this is Season 5 Chloe, she could say she opposes human trafficking, and the writers would still find a way to make her look like the bad guy.

Chloe tells the other rich kids to help her expose Marinette, but because they're so stuck up and entitled, they refuse to touch her. I'll give you all a moment to groan from that unfunny joke. Then we get this conversation between Marinette and “Adrien”.

“Adrien”: All eyes are on you.

Marinette: They're looking at me like I'm a monster.

“Adrien”: Look closer, Marinette. (whispers into her ear) They're the monsters.

I officially take back everything bad I ever said about the Canto Bight scenes from The Last Jedi.

While I get what the episode's going for, we really haven't seen a lot of the 1% doing things that would actually warrant this level of scorn from the audience. Yeah, most of them were egotistical snobs, especially Chloe, but you can't really see this as a shot at the elite when it's aimed at their children instead of their parents. All we've seen in this episode is the rich kids being jerks (and even then, it's played for laughs), Chloe rightfully trying to get Marinette thrown out of a party she had no reason to crash, and Gabriel and Tomoe trying to pair their children together. If you want to show the audience how bad rich people are, you need to show them actually abusing their power and mistreating others. As bad as the aforementioned Canto Bight scenes were, they still worked because it managed to back up the point it was trying to make.

Compare this to characters like the Ferengi from Star Trek or the World Nobles from One Piece. These are allegories for the 1% that work because they do a better job at exaggerating aspects of them that can translate to how we see the elite in our world. With the Ferengi, they represent everything wrong with cutthroat businessmen who base their entire society over financial gains, and with the World Nobles, they represent the disconnect with the common people by being so arrogant, they wear helmets that prevent them from breathing the same air as the commoners. If you wanted to show how bad the rich were, especially considering what's going to happen in a few minutes, you needed to do more to make the audience not like them so we'd be more happy to see them get their comeuppance.

Marinette figures out that Felix impersonated Adrien once again (it honestly stops being impressive when he's done it during literally every episode he appears in), and he decides to transform using the Peacock Miraculous in public for some reason, calling himself Argos.

Argos' design is okay. The suit and coattails look pretty nice, and the coloring on his face works a lot better than Gabriel's. The only problem I have is the way the hood looks. It looks too goofy to go with the rest of the suit. It kind of reminds me of that salmon suit Squidward wore in that one episode of SpongeBob SquarePants.

Before anyone else at the party can do anything, Argos reveals a Sentimonster he created, Red Moon.

Red Moon is... a red moon. It's just a red moon that floats above the city, and it gives Argos the ability to make anyone bathed in its light disappear with a snap of his fingers. If anything, this shows how overpowered the Peacock Miraculous is, and that Gabriel was a real idiot for not trying anything like this while he was Shadowmoth.

Anyway, after making everyone think his cousin is a supervillain as part of his brilliant plan, Argos decides to tell everyone in the room about what his Sentimonster can do. He demonstrates this by, of course, choosing to snap away Chloe before targeting Gabriel and Tomoe. You really have your priorities straight, buddy. Argos then carries Marinette outside before throwing her in a dumpster, because if he snapped her away, than Ladybug couldn't fight him.

But then Argos decides to go to the streets, and decides to snap away a bunch of innocent civilians... while singing a jazz song. To anyone curious as to what it sounds like, I must warn you, it isn't for the feint of heart.

I take back everything bad I ever said about the Hawkmoth rap.

First off, I'm just going to say it, Bryce Papenbrook cannot sing. Argos is clearly trying to sound like a suave and confident villain like Doctor Facilier from The Princess and the Frog, but his delivery is terrible. It either ranges from flat monotone to trying to shout while dealing with a sore throat. The point I'm trying to make is that there was a good reason someone else did the singing voice for Adrien in the recent movie.

Second, this doesn't do anything to make us root for Argos as a character, because there's no reason for him to be doing this. I can understand why he'd use his power to get rid of Gabriel and Tomoe (even Chloe, given we know how much she's done), but why is he suddenly going nuts snapping a bunch of random people who haven't even met him before? The episode tries to make him a character who only does bad things because he has no choice to, so him doing this to a bunch of innocent civilians makes no sense.

Finally, WHY THE HELL IS THIS SCENE A MUSICAL NUMBER?! It's hard enough to see Argos callously wipe out a bunch of bystanders, essentially committing genocide, but the tone of the song is all upbeat and cheery, while the lyrics are about how Argos should get whatever he wants. What is the purpose of adding a song here? Are we supposed to find this funny? Is it meant to establish Felix as a wild card? Is the song supposed to make us like him more because of how catchy it is? What was the writers' endgame here? Like I mentioned earlier, this flies in the face of the characterization the episode is trying to establish for him.

Marinette transforms into Ladybug and arrives on the scene, confronting Argos over what he did last season.

Ladybug: You're the reason why I lost the other Miraculous in the first place! And why he took them! You gave them to him without any regard for the consequences it might have with the people of Paris!

Argos: True, except I work for no one. I only helped Monarch cause it served my plans! I needed the Peacock Miraculous and today I need yours and Cat Noir's so I can make my wish!

Ladybug: Your wish?! What do you want?! What are you trying to do?! You're destroying the world and we don't even know why!

Argos: When I merge your Miraculous together, I'll make a wish to create a better world! A free world, where no one will be under anyone's control anymore, where no one will be excluded like I was! A world without people like you to decide what's right or wrong! Who gets powers and who doesn't!

Dude, you're literally playing God right now by snapping away people who did nothing wrong, while singing a song at that. You have no right to lecture Ladybug on how to use power responsibly. And once again, even though we just saw him happily snapping people out of existence like the kid from that one Twilight Zone episode, the episode is going back to portraying him as someone who's only doing this because he has nothing to lose.

Ladybug tries to use her Lucky Charm, but gets nothing in response. This is because her plan is to get Argos to give up, but even in episodes where her plan was to get Akumas to give up, she still got her Lucky Charm (Rocketear, Qilin, Penalteam, Reunion, Perfection, Intuition), so this doesn't really make any sense. Ladybug calls Argos' bluff, so he wipes out everyone from existence. After running into Kagami and snapping Adrien back into existence, Argos is surprised that they aren't thanking him for wiping out all of humanity, and in fact, see him as a complete psychopath.

We then learn Felix's true plan. Earlier that day, Argos capitalized on a opening he had been hoping he would get for weeks, and then created Red Moon. Right after Adrien's date with Marinette, Argos ambushed Adrien, and snapped him out of existence with Red Moon's power. He then decided to impersonate Adrien so he could infiltrate the dance and snap Gabriel, Tomoe, and everyone else out of existence.

I think my feelings on this plan can be perfectly summarized by Tony Stark.

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First off, why did he need to sneak into the dance? All Felix had to do was transform into Argos, and nobody would know who he really was.

Second, why did he need to impersonate Adrien? Felix claims he's doing this for him, yet all he did was steal his girlfriend and ruin his public reputation. As a matter of fact, why did he even snap Adrien away? You're already wiping out all of humanity, so I don't think temporarily doing the same to Adrien will earn you any goodwill.

Third, why did he waste so much time screwing around with Marinette and Kagami? I sort of get why he would try to get in Kagami's good graces (keyword being “try”) by trying to convince her to rebel against her mother more, but why did he dance around with Marinette while pretending to be Adrien? Felix later says he wanted to spare Marinette for Adrien's sake, but he barely knows her, and whether she finds out Felix impersonated her boyfriend or not, she's going to be pissed at either you or Adrien because of your galavanting. In fact, I don't think he ever told Adrien that he danced with Marinette while at the dance in the first place.

Finally, he really needed to wait for this for weeks? If your goal was to get rid of Gabriel and Tomoe, why didn't you just ambush them yourself instead of waiting for a public function? This isn't like has last few appearances where he needed to rely on his intellect. He has superpowers now. All he has to do is create another Sentibug or some kind of assassin Sentimonster and he can be rid of them easily. Instead, he waited weeks for a chance to steal his cousin's identity, dance with his girlfriend, talk trash about Kagami for listening to her mother when he's supposed to be helping her and Adrien, blow his cover in a crowded area by transforming, and use his killer moon to erase all of humanity from existence while singing. Remember, this is the show that usually makes jokes about Marinette's obsession with unnecessarily complicated plans.

Anyway, Argos tries to use his powers to bring Marinette back, but for some reason, they won't work. My best guess is that it's because Marinette transformed into Ladybug, but that shouldn't chance the fact that Argos snapped her with Red Moon's power. After trying to justify his genocide by saying he never wanted to hurt Adrien and Kagami, Argos remembers how his powers work and brings everyone back. After Ladybug lets him go scot-free, Argos goes to a private place realizes that he may have made a few mistakes for almost wiping out all of humanity, tearfully snapping Red Moon out of existence, calling it “his sister”. Because I guess we were supposed to emotionally connect to the giant moon that showed little to no signs of sentience this entire episode? Argos transforms back to Felix, and we learn that Amelie knew where he was the whole time, and she was apparently testing Gabriel for some reason.

After Adrien explains to Marinette that his father ordered him to not tell her about the dance, Adrien goes to talk to Gabriel about it. Gabriel, being Gabriel uses his control over Adrien to force him to never talk about Marinette again. Gabriel then gets a call from Lila, and even though she's been nothing but helpful to him since Season 3, he's apparently tired with her. Why is he suddenly rejecting the help of his most competent (by comparison) ally?

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Also, the episode ends with the revelation that Lila somehow knows Gabriel is Monarch. Why? How? I DON'T CARE, BECAUSE THIS EPISODE SUCKS!

Oh my God, this episode was just terrible! “Derision” and “Adoration” definitely got to me with the way their stories were handled, but this was the first episode in a while to really piss me off. The plot was contrived as hell, basically being a repeat of “Gabriel Agreste”, and you all know how I wasn't exactly a fan of that episode. Think about it: Marinette sneaks into a party, Felix tries to scheme against Gabriel, and Marinette and Adrien end up getting caught in one of his schemes.

The social commentary about how bad the rich were just felt more pretensions than anything else. I get that it's meant to teach children a lesson about the real world, but the episode feels so confident in what its trying to say when it's not that deep, even by kids' show standards. Rich people are bad? Yeah, I think someone like me who lives in the same country as Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Mark Zuckerberg knows that. Will you actually teach kids about the financial conditions that allow the wealthy to abuse their power or the cutthroat methods they'll resort to in order to turn a profit? No? You're just going to tell kids that rich people are jerks without giving any actual evidence in the same episode you're using to try and to teach them? Man, these writers just keep hitting it out of the park here!

This whole “Rich people suck” message also falls flat because Felix is the one pushing it. You know, someone who already comes from a rich family? It's not like Bruce Wayne where he uses his money to help the people of Gotham, as Batman or not. Felix just whines about how “tHeY'rE tHe MoNsTeRs.” when he's just as well-off as they are. The episode tries to do a subtle discrimination message as evidenced by his rant as Argos earlier, but it doesn't work because we have never seen anyone discriminate against Felix for who he is. Yeah, the episode once again tries to hint at him being a Sentimonster, but because the show hasn't just pulled the trigger and confirmed it, it's hard to really sympathize with him being “excluded” when we've never seen him being treated differently by others in earlier episodes, and even if he was a Sentimonster, nobody would know or be able to discriminate against him in the first place.

I don't know why the show keeps trying to excuse Felix's actions when once again, he pretty much committed fucking genocide yet the episode still wanted us to feel bad for him realizing his actions had consequences. If he actually wanted to own up to his mistakes, he'd either hand over the Peacock Miraculous to Ladybug or help Ladybug stop Monarch. For someone who claims he hates when people abuse power to make others suffer, he's no better, judging from how both times he's gotten to use a Miraculous, he's either screwed over Ladybug (Strikeback) or endangered a lot of innocent people. And if you're wondering why I didn't point out any double standards between the treatment of Felix compared to Chloe, that doesn't really matter. No matter how you feel about Chloe, whether you feel like she got screwed over or not, it doesn't really make how the writers are glorifying Felix any better or worse, as his potential “redemption arc” isn't off to a good start.

The plot was stupid, Felix was an idiot, and it felt like more effort was put into the musical number than the writing. In my opinion, this is easily the worst episode of the season so far.

Although at the very least, now that we have even more evidence that Adrien, Felix, and even Kagami are all Sentimonsters, I think I know what clip I can start using to describe my feelings on this plotline.

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THE BIGGEST IDIOT OF THE EPISODE IS... FELIX

For someone who managed to outsmart Gabriel on multiple occasions with no superpowers, Felix's intelligence really took a nosedive the second he got the Peacock Miraculous. He came up with a completely unnecessary plan that involved impersonating his cousin's identity and mocking his friend when he's supposed to try and win their favor, he danced with his cousin's girlfriend without his consent, transformed in public, smearing his reputation even further, and proceeded to gleefully wipe out humanity through a musical number, and needed other people to point out how immoral his actions were. Of course, Marinette gets second place thanks to her plan to break into the party and later letting Argos get away.

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