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#NOT EVERYTHING IS A DISCUSSION POINT????

spookyjarchivist · 1 year

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while i do have a soft spot for “hobbits age slower than humans so 33 for them is our physical 18” i rlly dont think that’s how it is bc they get to about the same age as humans before death by old age, i also really dont think we appreciate enough a few things about what this means narratively and thematically

tolkien really said no child soldiers, no 20-something year old soldiers, they’re not really adults yet, they barely know anything of the world we’re sending them to die for it and that’s not okay, not when there are other options

he also addresses this with the hobbits specifically, frodo and bilbo are 50 when they go on their journeys, FIFTY, and we can see that they handle them differently than the others. while bilbo changes afterwards, it’s not in a coming of age like we would see if 50 really was the equivalent of ~27, he just accepts a part of himself he’s been suppressing for years, for him it’s accepting that getting older and being an adult doesn’t restrict you from the excitement and opportunities of youth. similarly frodo doesn’t change much either outside of his ptsd, all of his change is trauma, not maturity

now sam and merry are both past the age of majority, but they still grow into themselves in a way bilbo and frodo do not, they mature

but pippin, sweet beautiful pippin grows the most out of all of them. he’s the most childish, always running after his cousins and you can tell he’s not even 30, this is HIS coming of age story, before this journey he’s known nothing of true responsibilities, but by the end he’s ready for when he eventually has to take over as thain of the shire

and i think that this is a really beautiful way of saying something that has started to get really popular in the last few years

instead of being terrified of that big 30, we should be excited for it, we should embrace it wholeheartedly, because it’s the time when we’ve finally started ironing out the last of the kinks in being an adult, we’re growing into our responsibilities and and we can start learning how to cultivate that balance of responsibility and excitement and FUN that makes life living instead of surviving

#tolkien #lord of the rings #lotr #hobbits #the hobbit #god i love these books so much #tolkien was so far ahead of his time #like obviously he had some issues #the race issues have had some really good talking points lately thanks to rop and people being more receptive to these discussions #but like everything else aged pretty well #his themes on gender are rarely paralleled even today by shit that passes the bechdel test #which is insane #*noodlespeaks

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fuckmeyer · 5 months

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hot take? but the Twilight fandom needs to stop citing Mormonism for everything that happens in this hell series.

the characters aren't Mormon. the plot isn't Mormon. the wardrobe isn't Mormon. this series was WRITTEN BY a Mormon woman whose religious indoctrination influenced her work. there are themes, plot points, characterizations, etc, that are related to or in line with LDS teachings. saying the book/characters are Mormon is not the same.

the more you label everything in text as Mormon, the less likely you'll be able to identify the actual religious influences

and if you think you are somehow immune to the influence of something you cannot correctly identify, think again

#red thread corkboard squad needs to come back #besties wya :(#we were really on one when we were talking about theology in a critical way #now the fandom has genuinely adopted this insane notion that everything is or can be explained by Mormonism #and honestly guys not to be a hater but regurgitating meta & crit lit theory you learned via osmosis does not mean you Get It #considering the fact that the whole reason i started fuckmeyer 1.0 was to generate more crit lit discussion on twilight #you have no idea how much it pains me to say this #bc i WANT more crit lit discussion of this saga. analyzing literature is fun as hell!!!!!#but....... seeing people hop on shitposts & headcanons to 'prove' how much they 'know' the inner mechanisms of twilight #genuinely makes me sad. like the Point of analyzing lit is not to reaffirm your intelligence or show others how smart & woke you are.......

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fromtheseventhhell · 9 months

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“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the North must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa…your own sister, trueborn…” “…and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.” (Catelyn V, ASOS)

This is truly one of, if not the, most erased passages in the books. People either completely ignore its existence or act as though George wrote it in some secret, coded language that makes it all ambiguous.

#asoiaf #robb stark #catelyn stark #arya stark #jon snow #fandom nonsense #people really stick their heads in the sand for this one #Sansa's marriage to Tyrion causing a conflict to her succession status #Arya being discussed as heir over Sansa and not being chosen ONLY because she is presumed dead #Jon being unambiguously chosen as Robb's heir which somehow gets ignored a lot???#/George left everything so vague around Robb's will/ and Cat and Robb literally spell everything out in the conversation they have #I mean I shouldn't be surprised by anything at this point but 🙄#Anyways just cause fandom ignores it doesn't mean George will #Arya can be heir over Sansa and Jon IS named heir and legitimatized

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constantvariations · 8 months

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Why Some People Don't Like Jaune Arc

I've seen some folk confused about the dislike towards Jaune, such as @the-sapphic-raven and @foxgirltail so I thought I'd compile all the reasons (that I can remember without a whole-ass rewatch) in a single post. For the most part, it's not the character himself that earns ire but the way he's used

Volume One

All the goodwill Jaune built up by being sweet towards Ruby is immediately soured by his chauvinistic attitude towards Weiss and his dismissal of Pyrrha, a strange choice given this is supposed to be a progressive society/show. And Pyrrha, the prodigy of the entire school, is somehow into being treated like dirt

There's also the matter of his sneaking into a school dedicated to protecting people from man-eating monsters despite the fact that Jaune had negative skills (while somehow being from a long line of warriors). It makes for good story, but it's also an incredibly selfish and dangerous decision that put people, most directly his teammates, at risk due to his inexperience. This would've been smoothed over had he actually been proactive, but instead he sleeps in class and Pyrrha has to take initiative in training him

The biggest problem comes in the "Jaune Arc" where his generic bullying plot not only overshadows the anti-faunus attitude, not only comes before Blake or Yang get an arc, but takes up an entire twenty-five percent of the first season. That was a whole month of Jaune instead of RWBY back in the days of release

Volume Two

Once again, Jaune has a disproportionate amount of time dedicated to him but this time he's joined by Neptune so we can have a love triangle between these two and Weiss. Given that Jaune and Neptune are voiced by Luna and Shawcross, the writers who, yknow, write Weiss's every word and action, this comes off as super creepy. Additionally, he pursues Weiss despite her multiple unambiguous rejections, and the narrative is clearly on his side. And then, after learning that Neptune turned down Weiss - something well within his right to do - Jaune gets pissy and confronts him with language objectifying Weiss as some sort of possession and forces Neptune to reveal something he's obviously very ashamed about

There's also the man-in-a-dress "joke" that shouldn't be considered a joke in a gender-equal society, but that's simply more bad writing choices with Jaune as the victim

Volume Three

There's not as much here since Jaune plays more of a supporting role to Pyrrha, which is where he really shines as a character. There's that bit during the Vytal Festival with the team name shenanigans throwing off the scene's rhythm, but it's more of an annoyance than anything else

But then after Pyrrha sends him away, instead of calling Glynda like he'd been about to do or any authority, he calls Ruby and breaks his phone before calling anyone else. Grief does make people do stupid things, but this is goes beyond that. This was a choice of the writers to refuse Pyrrha backup so she could die, leading into the most consistent complaint of Jaune in all subsequent volumes: trauma hogging

Volume Four

While Ruby, Ren, and Nora get only outfit changes, Jaune gets upgrades to both his armor and weapon using Pyrrha's crown and sash. This is pretty blatant favoritism since Ren and Nora don't get anything of hers to symbolize their connection to Pyrrha despite them also being teammates and friends. This trauma favoritism continues when Ruby wakes from a nightmare about Pyrrha only for the scene to be about Jaune's feelings. We never come back to Ruby's trauma (unless you want to count that one talk with Oscar in V5, which still isn't great) and Ren/Nora are completely passed over

Then in the Nuckleavee fight, instead of Ruby being the one to rescue Qrow from oncoming attack because she's got the speed and that's her uncle, it's Jaune who saves the day. It's Jaune who gets that silent handgrab with Qrow, which means nothing because these two don't really know each other but would mean a wealth of things had it been Ruby instead

Also, the sword sword "upgrade." It's not Jaune's fault that it's poorly designed, I'm just legally obligated to say it sucks every time I talk about this fight

Volume Five

When Qrow and Lionheart talk about Raven, Jaune knows she's Yang’s mom despite the two of them sharing maybe 10 words with each other. Yang didn't even tell Blake, her own partner, much about Raven, but for whatever reason she told Jaune? Sus

The climatic fight nerfed everyone, but Weiss and Cinder got special stupid juice specifically so Jaune could be the main character. Cinder spent the last two seasons building up and reinforcing her hatred of Ruby, even agreeing to Raven's alternative plan just for a stab at the kid. Yet her attention during the big fight is solely on Jaune because...? And he goes toe-to-toe with her! She was trained by a professional huntsman for years as a child while Jaune has, what? Maybe a year of training? And she's a Maiden! The deck is so stacked against Jaune it's not even funny

Then to punish him, instead of attacking Ruby - who's entirely preoccupied by Emerald, his very first friend, and the person he crossed continents to follow - Cinder goes after Weiss. His crush. Who conveniently forgot her sword isn't a wand and her glyphs can do just about anything so her aura could be broken

Weiss got fridged so Jaune could discover his semblance. Female empowerment at its finest

(Before anyone tries it, no, I'm not saying Ruby should've been fridged instead. The situation as written is set up so that somebody HAS to be fridged, which is stupid. This could've been revealed in a million ways that didn't involve girls being maimed)

Volume Six

Getting aggressive with Oscar was out of line. I understand (not condone) Qrow being violent because he's been in the game longer than any of the kids and just watched an entire HD powerpoint of Ozpin's lies. Being Oz's spy was essentially his life

Jaune does not have that same depth of investment. One can argue that he was acting on his grief of Pyrrha, but that falls flat when neither Ren or Nora come even close to the same reaction

Once again, Jaune hogs all the Pyrrha-related trauma, even getting a visit from her mom(?) while looking at a giant statue of her (despite the fact that Pyrrha blatantly said in V2 she didn't like being treated like she's above others)

Volume Seven

Jaune hogs the camera for JNR's new landing strategies, his hair is dumb, and grown women fawning over a teenager is gross, but overall Jaune this volume is fantastic. Super swell in his supporting role here and that bit where he compliments Nora after her failed flirting always makes me giggle

Volume Eight

Imma be honest, I don't remember much of V8 and I do not have the time, will, or energy to rewatch it, so I'll just skip to the biggest thing in the volume: Penny's death.

Jaune did not try hard enough to save her. Whereas any other time this trope of mercy killing during combat has been implemented, it's typically done as a reluctant last resort after every other option has been exhausted. Cinder was still preoccupied with Weiss and Jaune's pretty beefy; he could've made a dash for the exit while still healing her

Instead, he boosts her aura for a whole 2 seconds before agreeing to stab her in the heart.

Another fridge for Jaune's collection

Volume Nine

Everyone's fears of Jaune stealing the spotlight once again get confirmed. He gets a legendary role in a story loved world wide, a pedestal only matched by Ruby's weird deified status in the rtx V9 epilogue, which may or may not be canon

Weiss is into him for "being mature" despite never having shown a preference for older men. Not counting villains we have Ozpin, Oobleck, Port, Klein, Qrow, and Ironwood; all of whom could've been used to establish this trait, yet it only comes out with Jaune? Highly suspicious

His relationship with the paper pleasers is incredibly terrible. He has no respect for their culture and treats them like children despite their obvious intelligence. It rings far too closely to missionaries "saving" people, usually of color, in third world countries

Then, when Ruby finally snapped and is venting her frustrations, Jaune cuts in to take his rage out on her. Jaune, at this point, is at least in his mid thirties, so we get a grown ass man yelling at a seventeen year old girl who then runs away, putting her in a vulnerable position that is immediately taken advantage of. Nobody blames him for being upset, but as an adult he now has a responsibility to take care of how he treats people significantly younger than him

Not even an hour after Ruby drinks the tea right in front of them, the entire group hugs Jaune with big, bright smiles. Ruby not once had someone actually comfort her despite her obvious failing mental health, but Jaune gets comforted by both the team and the narrative

Thanks for surviving this far

Feel free to add on, but I'm tired of this being in my drafts so Jaune be upon ye

If y’all disagree with any of the points, I'd love to hear your view and have a nice discussion

#rwde #by discussion i mean going into the conversation w the goal of reaching an understanding #even if that understanding is 'we see each others points and still disagree'#im not having another gold sec or whatever his url was #mf really thought 'damn way to be wrong abt everything' was an acceptable thing to say to a person #just bc youre not outright calling someone stupid doesnt mean we cant read behind the curtain

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majorshatterandhare · 4 months

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Okay, accent/pronunciation post.

In Hereward the Wake, Tim pronounces “duty” with a /j/ (yod) which creates a pronunciation something like /ˈdjuː.ti/ in the IPA or “dyoo-tee” in English phonetic spelling. From what I can tell, this is one of two common pronunciations in English accents, the other being /ˈdʒuː.ti/ in the IPA or “djoo-tee” in English phonetic spelling. This second pronunciation features coalescence of the d and yod to create a dj sound. This can be contrasted by Rachel’s pronunciation of “duty” in Alice, which features yod dropping, and can be written as /ˈduː.ti/ in the IPA or “doo-tee” in English phonetic spelling. Although Tim is doing a very odd accent in Hereward, it doesn’t really matter in this case. In Riddle of the Sphinx he pronounces “introduced” with a coalescence of the d and yod (/ˌɪn. trə ˈdʒuːst/ or “in-truh-djoost”) and regardless of whether it is coalesced or not, as long as it’s not *dropped* it works for our purposes.

Okay, now we get into why this is funny to me. The yod-close back rounded vowel pair (/ju/ or “yoo”) comes to English from French. The French close front rounded vowel sound (/y/, I have no idea how I’d write this in English phonetic spelling, but make the inside of your mouth like you’re gonna say “ee” and your lips like your gonna say “oo” and that’s how you make it) came into English and was separated into /i/ and /u/ (or “ee” and “oo”) but then the /i/ was replaced with yod. This was not only applied to words that came from French, but also some pre-existing English words as well (and is now applied to foreign words once they’ve been in English long enough, like “Cuba”).

Now, when did the yod-close back rounded vowel pair enter English? Well, when was English heavily influenced by French? That’s right, when the Normans took over. And who fought the Normans? Hereward!

This lead me to the idea of an Anglish translation of Hereward the Wake. Has anyone done that yet?

[Note: information on the yod-close back rounded vowel pair came from this video by Dr. Geoff Lindsey; IPA representations were taken from the online Cambridge Dictionary and Wikictionary and adjusted where necessary (such as making “introduce” into “introduced”). Also I’m not actually positive that Tim doesn’t coalesce the d and yod in “duty”, it sounds kinda like both to me, but either way it comes from the French which is the important part for this post.]

#baaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh #okay so nothing i state in this am i sure about. this is my understanding based on what little i know about linguistics etc etc #also the point was using pronunciation that we ultimately have because of the normans in a song about a guy who hated the normans.#i fucking love the accent he does for hereward. i could just talk about that. about what i like about it.#but mostly it boils down to enjoying it *because its interesting.*#i do not know *why* he does such an accent for it. but i like it.#the mechanisms #hereward the wake #gunpowder tim #tim ledsam #accent discussion #i guess also part of the point is that i suspect it was not intentional and thats just part of his accent #but i dont know. i havent specifically listened to everything i can to search for another instance of consonant-yod coalescence from him.#well. consonant-yod coalesnence that isnt present in my accent is what id be looking for. because some words have it in english generally-#speaking. like ‘picture’ (pic-chur or sometimes pit-chur) and ‘actually’ (ack-choo-lee or ack-choo-uh-lee)

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themoonking · 11 months

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it’s not actually that weird that people are saying “harry potter was never good, actually” after joanne went full mask off, and no it doesn’t mean that we all secretly think harry potter is amazing but don’t want to admit it. it’s pretty simple actually: most people read harry potter when they were children, when they hadn’t read a lot of other books and therefore didn’t have a lot to compare it to. then every time you reread it as an adult, you’re looking through pretty hefty nostalgia goggles. then, after you’ve realized that joanne is a violent bigot that wants you and / or people you love and care for dead, those goggles are broken and when you attempt to look at hp again you’re more likely to see it’s flaws. it’s not rocket science.

#like don't get me wrong people have pointed out stuff wrong with hp since the beginning #both the bigoted aspects of it and the simply bad writing aspects #but it was in bits and pieces and far less vocal #whereas now you see its more 'wait a minute the entire series is lowkey shit' and is a lot more people saying it #also for people like myself #you read a lot of fanfiction and saw a lot of fan discussion and so whenever you reread harry potter #that stuff was in the back of your mind whether you meant it to be or not #and it maybe caused you to think that what you were reading was a lot deeper than it actually was #because you were taking all this fan content as canon even if nothing of what you were actually read in the text suggested it #but then when everything fell apart you hadn't even thought about harry potter for a good while and that fan stuff wasn't in your head #and you could see the text for the mess it was without the bolstering and hole filling that fandom had done for it #i speak #anti jk rowling #and there's also the point that when harry potter was at its peak popularity the entire world was reinforcing the fact that this is amazing #so you're less inclined to find flaws because somethign this big cant POSSIBLY be bad

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panharmonium · 5 months

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Hi! I love your Naruto thoughts and meta posts with all my heart and I want to ask your thoughts on something that has been on my mind literally since I was 13: what do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura? I went from being a hardcore shipper when I was a teenager, to being against any romantic relationship in Naruto after finishing the anime when I was in my early twenties. Nowadays I'm very into platonic love and depictions of friendship and I think the anime's obsession with forcing the "romantic interest" curse upon the main female character robbed us of... so much. There are a few wonderful moments in the anime where Sasuke and Sakura acknowledge each other, but because she's always "the girl with the crush", her actions are so often interpret as irrational or selfish by the fandom.

Hi @riemmetric! It's great to talk to you again! Sorry it's taken me so long to answer this; RL has been making demands of me lately and it took me way longer to finish writing this up than I wanted it to (then again, I knew from the minute I read your original ask that my reply was going to get long, so I suppose I should have predicted a delay XD)

It's funny, my sister once asked me to choose between Sasuke or Sakura for an “unpopular opinion” meme, and I ended up doing Sasuke solely because I think the negative fandom opinions about Sakura are so unhinged and divorced from the actual text that I wouldn’t even know where to start. People are entitled to dislike whatever characters they want, obviously, but there are some fandom takes that are, for me, so obviously rooted in bad faith viewings/readings that there’s no urge in me to discuss them. That said, since you asked, I’m happy to go into my own thoughts on this a bit, with the disclaimer for other potential readers that I only write about fandom things for my own personal enjoyment, not as a contribution to The Discourse. If you don’t like Sakura, great! I have no interest in changing your mind. Please consider this a sincere invitation to scroll on by and go enjoy whatever parts of the fandom appeal to you.

In general terms: I love Sasuke and Sakura’s relationship as much as I love all of the relationships in Team 7. If we’re talking about them specifically as a romantic couple, then I probably fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, because I do like them together in a post-canon (to be clear: non-Boruto) setting, after time has passed and they’ve continued to develop individually and reconnect with each other, but I also wouldn’t exactly call myself an intense “shipper,” in the sense that I have no interest in pulling things out from the text and incorrectly citing them as evidence that Sasuke has hidden romantic feelings for her during the canon period. He cares about her in the canon period, just like he cares about Naruto and Kakashi. That’s not up for interpretation; it’s the text. But Sasuke during the canon time period does not demonstrate specifically romantic interest in anyone.

[A note before people who might ship Sasuke with Someone Else emerge to rail against this statement - please just scroll past and continue enjoying fandom in whatever way is most fun for you. It is cool to ship whatever fanon thing you want; I think that’s great! But earnestly citing any loving or emotional thing Sasuke does re: various characters in this story (yes, Sakura included) as indicative of specifically romantic love isn’t supported by the text. I know there are always going to be enormous subsets of any fandom who insist that it is, and I'm certainly not going to barge into anyone else's space to complain about that (because other people having fun together is harmless and none of my business), but I'm not obligated to indulge it on my own blog, either.]

Anyway, that said - the reason why I love Sakura and Sasuke’s relationship (from here on out I’ll use “relationship” in a general, non-romantic sense) is precisely because Sakura isn’t just “the girl with the crush.” Sakura has an arc when it comes to Sasuke, and its trajectory moves in the exact opposite direction of “irrational” or “selfish.” She specifically goes from “the girl with the crush” to “the girl who steels herself and tries to put her personal feelings for Sasuke aside for the greater good” to “the girl who knows she can’t put her feelings aside, but who also knows full well that Sasuke doesn’t reciprocate them, and who still wants to save him regardless, because he matters to her as a person and a friend.”

[I'm putting the rest of this under a cut to save everyone's dash, and also to emphasize once again that this is a personal post on my personal blog which I wrote in response to a question from a personal acquaintance, the full content of which no one is obligated to read. I am not sending this post to random strangers and forcing them to look at it. I'm not even putting it in the character tags. I'm typing it up on my own blog and putting it under a cut. If you already know that you don't like Sakura, but you still click the link/read the post and then feel an urge to comment and complain, I am going to copy-paste this disclaimer and remind you that I specifically recommended that you scroll past and go have fun with fandom in your own way. Thanks in advance for responsibly curating your own fandom experience!]

So, from the top:

1. the girl with the crush

Sakura is, obviously, completely obsessed with Sasuke at the beginning of Part 1. She’s also deeply clueless about him and his history (bizarre though it is, the story seems to indicate that she initially doesn’t know what happened with his family, the same way young!Obito is initially clueless about Kakashi’s father). But what I like about Sakura and Sasuke’s Part 1 relationship is how this changes over time.

The critical scene that kicks this off happens right at the beginning of the manga, when she and Sasuke are talking by that bench - she complains about Naruto and blames his behavior on him being all alone/having no family to scold him; and even says she’s jealous that he doesn’t have parents to nag him all the time. This obviously triggers an outburst from Sasuke, who tells her she has no idea what loneliness means and that she “makes him sick”/she’s “annoying” (importantly, the exact same thing Sakura said to Naruto in anger earlier that day), which in turn prompts Sakura to reassess herself and wonder whether she’s been making Naruto feel this terrible all the time, too:

From that point on, it’s a process of her putting little pieces together. She still has a MAJOR crush, and she still acts like a twelve year-old, but as we approach the end of Part I, Sakura actually has a more accurate grasp on Sasuke’s current state of mind than Naruto does. Naruto is initially excited to fight Sasuke on top of the hospital, because he feels like Sasuke’s finally acknowledging him, whereas Sakura is the one who immediately recognizes that something is wrong about this situation. She is also the one who, after this fight, is concerned that Sasuke is really unwell and might do something drastic like run off in pursuit of the power Orochimaru promised him, but when she communicates this to Naruto, he assures her that this would NEVER happen:

(Sakura isn't convinced, though, because she goes to monitor the exit out of the village anyway.)

I’m not criticizing Naruto for his response here. I ADORE hearing him say that Sasuke is too strong to need Orochimaru, with such perfect confidence - I love seeing how much respect and admiration he has for Sasuke underneath all their fighting, because that’s the whole reason he’s always baiting Sasuke and yelling at him and claiming “you're not so great!” He looks up to Sasuke; he wants to be like Sasuke; he thinks Sasuke is awesome! (It’s that Obito @ Kakashi behavior, you know?) But the fact remains that he is clueless about what’s actually going on with Sasuke in Part 1, and he remains clueless(ly optimistic) for a long time.

(Eg, when he catches up to Sasuke during the retrieval arc and Sasuke climbs out of that cursed seal coffin, Naruto waves at him and calls "Come on, let's go!" as if Sasuke has been successfully rescued and is now going to come running home. Even in Part II, when Naruto hears that Sasuke killed Orochimaru, he beams and immediately says, “So he must be on his way back to the Leaf Village!” And everyone else in the room is like, “....,” because they know better. Naruto doesn’t yet fully understand [or doesn't want to accept] the extent to which Sasuke has willingly chosen this path, and it’s not until after Jiraiya’s death/the Pain attack/the Five Kage Summit that Naruto really starts to understand Sasuke more clearly, which is something he himself admits.)

Sakura, in Part 1, has access to more information about Sasuke - she’s there for his first dissociative monologue during the bells test, she’s there for the curse mark’s placement, she’s there for his first violent transformation in the Forest of Death - she is, in fact, the unwitting catalyst for it (“Sakura…who did this to you?”), and her compassion is the reason Sasuke is later able to overcome the curse mark’s influence - so she has a more accurate/complete picture of “how he’s doing,” for lack of a better phrase, whereas Naruto, who doesn’t know about the curse mark in the first place, is still in the dark. This means that Sakura is able to accurately discern that Sasuke is struggling more than Naruto realizes, and specifically to predict that he’s going to run away.

(This dynamic is then interestingly flipped in the back half of Part II, since at any point after the Five Kage Summit, Sakura doesn’t have access to extremely relevant [if currently questionable and unproven] details that would in any other circumstance inform her behavior).

Of course, just because she has more info in Part 1 doesn’t mean she has some kind of miraculous insight into Sasuke’s every thought and feeling. There are parts of her attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village that are as clueless as any of Naruto’s assumptions, and they showcase the kind of magical thinking common to childhood - like when she says that if he stayed with her, she could give him happiness, she’d do anything for him, even help him get his revenge - this idea that she herself can do something to make him feel better, that she can love him powerfully enough to defeat his pain - obviously none of that is rooted in realism.

Is this part of her approach irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered? Of course it is! But it’s no more irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered than Naruto’s stated plan to drag Sasuke back to the village even if he has to “break every bone in [his] body!”

Hating on Sakura for her Part 1 attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village while simultaneously lauding Naruto for his feels like a bad faith misread of what is, to me, pretty clear narrative intention. The story doesn’t at any point intend for us to see her begging him to stay as a selfish or conniving attempt to get something she wants. She’s begging him to stay for the same underlying reason that Naruto is: she cares about him. She thinks he’s making a mistake that will only cause him more pain in the end (she’s right) and she wants to make it so he feels less pain right now (she can’t. But she doesn’t understand that/isn’t able to admit that, and she’s willing to try ANYTHING that might help).

It’s critical that this farewell scene is set in front of that same bench from their first important confrontation - she references that day and how angry he got at her, and this time she tells him that she understands his reaction. She’s learned things and she recognizes how insensitive she was being back then (“I know what happened to your clan, Sasuke”), even though she still can’t fully grasp all the complexities of the situation. She tells him that him blowing up at her back then helped her understand what loneliness actually meant (as opposed to her previous shallow understanding of it), and she challenges him about his choice right now: "So that's it, you're choosing the lonely path?" And when she tells him that she'll be very lonely if he leaves, we're immediately shown a panel of Sasuke thinking of both his friends, with the very clear implication that if he goes through with this, he will be lonely without them, too - that he's still struggling with the idea of leaving them, no matter how hard he tries to pretend:

Sakura at this point knows that Sasuke isn’t interested in her the way she is in him, but she still wants to give him happiness, however fantastical and immature her ideas sound to us (and, I’m sure, to him). “I’ll do anything, even help you get your revenge/we'll have fun every day, and...and you'll be happy! I'll make sure of it!” - of course, it’s completely childish. It’s irrational. It’s ridiculous to think that any of this would ever be effective, but no more ridiculous than Naruto’s belief that he can simply break every bone in Sasuke’s body and keep him in the Leaf by force.

Both Naruto and Sakura are children who have a deeply oversimplified understanding of Sasuke’s situation. They both still think they can fix him themselves. They both think they can save him themselves. They both think they can convince (or force) him to do what they want, what they think is in his best interests. Both of them don’t yet understand that he has to want to come back, if it’s ever going to mean anything. Their attempts to keep him in the village are immature and unrealistic, yes. What they aren’t, however, is selfish, because neither Sakura nor Naruto are doing any of this with the intention of advancing their own interests. They’re only thinking about Sasuke - how to keep Sasuke safe, how to make Sasuke happy - even when neither of them are taking an approach that will actually work.

Naruto and Sakura are children. They’re afraid of losing somebody they care about. Their attempts to prevent that from happening are desperate and messy and ultimately ineffective, but they are also genuinely felt and rooted in a true desire to rescue Sasuke from his pain, which - and this is the single most important thing that should impact our viewing of Part 1 - is something that Sasuke RECOGNIZES. He doesn’t spend that agonizingly long moment bowed over Naruto’s defeated body so we can pretend he doesn’t understand that Naruto was just trying to help him. He doesn’t take the time to murmur, “Sakura…thank you,” before laying her out carefully on a bench, just so we can discount it and pretend that he doesn’t recognize and appreciate her genuine intention to make things better for him, however clumsy that attempt might have been.

2. the greater good

If Stage 1 Sakura is "the girl with the crush," then Stage 2 Sakura is a progression to “the girl who decides to put her feelings for Sasuke aside in order to protect innocent people, including (but certainly not limited to) Naruto.” She’s driven to this decision by interactions with Shikamaru, who all too recently had to grow up fast himself (“We're not kids anymore...we can't allow a war to break out between the Hidden Leaf and the Hidden Cloud because of Sasuke") and Sai, who risks his new friendship with Sakura and Team 7 in order to speak some hard truths and deliver one of my favorite lines in the whole story: “I don’t know what promise Naruto made to you, but it’s really no different than what was done to me. It’s like a curse mark.”

(INCREDIBLE. How can anybody be complaining about a season where Sai gets to say something that goes THIS HARD and Sakura LISTENS and takes DRAMATIC ACTION that actually propels the story forward in a meaningful way - )

[Okay, yeah, brief personal opinion interlude - it is just bonkers wild to me that there are people who complain about Sakura in the Five Kage Summit arc. That entire season is the greatest character arc she ever has. Literally she has never been more interesting and dynamic than in Season 10; it’s the first time she ever gets to be as deep and fascinating as the boys; what is everybody so worked up about? Oh, “she lied to Naruto that one time” - Sasuke joined infant-kidnapping baby-murdering human experimentation machine Orochimaru when he was twelve years old in order to (dare I say it????) selfishly pursue his personal goals and yet, somehow, we are still able to root for him. He abandoned his friends/allies to imprisonment and death (Suigetsu and Jūgo) or outright stabbed them in the chest himself (Karin) in order to (SELFISHLY) get what he wanted, and yet, somehow, we are still able to love him, understand him, and be on his side. Naruto is canonically not upset with Sakura about her lie after receiving context for the situation and I think we can probably take our cues from him without feeling the need to bring her up on war crimes; please calm down]

[Sorry, I just really love most of Season 10 and think it’s one of the best examples of how good this story can be when every single character gets to do something that matters (as opposed to things being all Naruto, all the time) so I get a little bit worked up over people complaining about some of the best writing Sakura ever gets. I don’t understand what certain elements of fandom want from her. People complain about her being “useless” and not doing anything that contributes to the story, but then they complain just as much when she does finally get to act decisively and have just as complex/dynamic an inner world as the boys. She’s “weak” for being unreasonably in love with Sasuke, but when she tries to be “strong” and put her love for him aside and eliminate him in order to protect Naruto and the rest of the world, she’s evil, because she should have been more understanding of his situation (despite the fact that she doesn’t KNOW anything about his situation). But then when she can’t go through with killing him after all because she cares about him too much despite the things he’s done, she’s not "compassionate" or "kind" or "a good friend," she’s “weak” again. Nothing Sakura does in S10 is more wrongheaded or rash than any of the batshit, buckwild things Naruto and Sasuke have done in the past (and will continue to do in the future), but when Naruto and Sasuke have big feelings or take bold action, it makes them interesting characters, whereas Sakura can’t breathe in anyone’s direction without being minutely scrutinized for moral impurities.]

Anyway. Back to a more measured response.

Every single piece of development Sakura has with regard to Sasuke in this season satisfies me so much. Her initial shock and disbelief at hearing that Sasuke had joined the Akatsuki? Good, appropriate. The fact that she starts to acknowledge the reality of what Sasuke’s done sooner than Naruto does? Also extremely appropriate, very in-character for both of them. Her taking Sai’s words to heart and deciding that the promise she asked Naruto to make when they were children is causing him to suffer and she has to relieve him of that burden? Juicy! AND thematically significant (promises!!!! the burden that a promise places on a person, especially when it can't be kept - we've seen that before in this story and we'll see it again). Her anguished pivot from wanting to protect Sasuke to realizing that she has a responsibility to protect the countless innocents who will die because of the war he’s trying to start? HELLO THIS IS INCREDIBLE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. Her knocking out the classmates who agreed to help her so they don’t have to share in her burden (and so the only person Naruto will hate when it’s over is her)? BRUH. Her being so committed and focused on her goal of saving innocents and protecting Naruto (not just from being harmed by Sasuke/the Akatsuki, but by the possibility that Naruto will someday have to hurt Sasuke himself) that she tries to take everything on by herself and walks into a confrontation that she absolutely cannot win?? INCREDIBLE. (Literally the first time I watched this, I said, “Finally!!! It’s Sakura’s turn to go off the rails!” I laughed with my sister about how Kakashi isn’t even mad, because Naruto and Sasuke have been pulling stunts like this for years and Sakura was way overdue for her own meltdown.) And then, after Kakashi intervenes in the fight - Sakura barreling back into the battle when she realizes he’s going to take on the burden of killing Sasuke himself in order to spare her and Naruto the horror - “I can’t let Kakashi-sensei bear this burden!” I love her for that.

And then, of course, in the end - her not being able to do hurt Sasuke after all. Despite committing herself to the act, despite forcing herself to put her feelings for him aside, despite resolving to stop him from starting a war and killing innocent people, she can’t harm him. She cares about him too much. This, too, is thematically significant - think about Itachi’s “you don’t have enough hatred” - she doesn’t have enough hatred to kill someone she cares about, even if it seems like he deserves it, even if would be the right thing to do to protect others. She can’t do it, and Sasuke almost kills her for her compassion.

I love the dynamic this sets up between her and Sasuke, for a few reasons:

1) Personally, I think Sasuke respects Sakura much more for trying to kill him than he would have if she’d just tried to talk him out of his behavior or beg him to come home (a la their original confrontation in Part 1). This is the first significant interaction he’s had with Sakura in years, and the fact that she does something SO contrary to his memory of her is an important demonstration of the fact that she’s not the same girl she used to be. Sasuke spends a lot of time after his defection declaring to his old team “I’ve changed; I’m not that person anymore,” but this is one of the moments where he’s forced to acknowledge that his teammates have changed, too. Time didn’t just stop for them when he left. While he was turning into someone new, so were they. They grew up without him, and his old memories of them can’t encompass the whole picture of who they are now.

(This is a little tangential, but in general, I love the spectrum of reactions that Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi have in this sequence, and the way that all of them are ultimately messages Sasuke needs to hear. Sasuke - who we know textually regrets what he did here, who apologizes to Sakura for it later - for “everything,” in fact - needs Naruto’s aggressively optimistic open-arms policy, yes, needs that potential, that unconditional possibility of return. He also needs Sakura’s refusal to let him hurt her friends and start a war that will kill thousands of people, needs her surprisingly ruthless attempt to take him down; needs just as much her failure to do so, because it shows him that she still loves him too much to kill him even as she condemns him. And he needs Kakashi’s grim line in the sand, needs someone who very possibly won't hesitate like Sakura (despite the horrifying personal cost), someone who will try to reach him but also won't let him escape and become the next generation’s Orochimaru, who won't let him cause untold suffering to untold numbers of people just because a teacher loved him too much to stop him when he had the chance.

(And then even Kakashi chooses not to deliver a killing blow when he has the opportunity -)

(I know that in fandom people are more likely to be all, “oh, Naruto Good, everybody else Bad,” but I don’t think the narrative frames Sakura or Kakashi as “worse” than Naruto in any way. The story goes out of its way to make it clear how desperately they don’t want to hurt Sasuke and how much they care about him. And [this is just my interpretation, so obviously I won’t claim it as fact], I personally think that Sasuke - Sasuke, who, looking back, can see how lost he was then and how tortured he would have been if he’d gone through with many of his plans - would be grateful to Sakura and Kakashi for making an attempt to stop him when he couldn’t stop himself.)

2) On the other side of this, the fact that Sakura wasn’t able to deliver the killing blow means a lot. Sasuke was incapacitated under that bridge; he was completely at her mercy - but she stopped with the kunai an inch from his back. She couldn’t kill him, even though she knew that he was completely willing to kill her (because he'd attempted to Chidori-assassinate her from behind just a few minutes ago). That’s huge! Sasuke is too out of his head right now to process this or understand it, but later, it's going to matter. She stayed her hand. She spared his life. She loved him too much to hurt him, even when he’d given her every reason to take him down. She hesitated, and he almost killed her for it, but her inability to strike him ultimately gave him yet another chance to come home, another chance to get better, another chance to have a life outside of his pain. Despite everything, some part of her still hadn’t really given up on him, and that knowledge will matter later, when he’s finally able to acknowledge it.

The point of all this is to say that I really have no complaints about Sakura and Sasuke’s dynamic in their S10 confrontation. This season is the point where Sakura fully grows past her “girl with a crush” stage and into her “shinobi must make very harsh decisions” adulthood, but it never means that she doesn’t care about the person she’s trying to take down. Her ultimate inability to deliver the killing blow remains a dangling lifeline for her relationship with Sasuke, an open door that Sasuke is able to walk through at the end of the story (literally, in fact, when Sakura opens that portal for him and saves him from Kaguya’s desert prison, and figuratively, too, when Sasuke apologizes to her).

3. she only wants to save you

The last stage in their relationship is what Sakura settles into during the war arc. She started off Part 1 being just a girl with a crush, then tried to harden her heart and put her feelings for Sasuke aside in service of the greater good, but she was unable to actually follow through and kill him, and because of that, what she’s come to accept by the war arc is actually two things: that 1) Sasuke truly is willing to let her die if it furthers his goals, and 2) she wants to save him anyway.

She has no intention of pursuing Sasuke romantically. She knows full well that Sasuke isn’t interested in her. She even knows that Sasuke isn’t really on their side (there’s a great scene where Sai questions Sakura about Sasuke’s return, and she reassures him that everything is fine, and Sai sadly thinks to himself “even I can tell your smile is fake”). She’s well-aware that Sasuke didn’t try to help her when Madara stabbed her. She’s well-aware that he left her to die in the lava pit. She’s also well-aware that none of this is enough to make her stop loving him. He doesn’t have to care about her - she still cares about him. She still wants to help him. She still wants to save him.

This is not hidden, hard-to-parse character development. It’s explicitly articulated on the page:

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers! She only wants to save you.

I’m not sure if people look at this last confrontation and unquestioningly take Sasuke at his word (as if we haven’t just read 71 volumes/watched 700 episodes showing us how how painfully distorted his thinking is), or if they stop reading/watching before the end of the scene, or if they don’t understand that Sasuke saying something doesn’t make that statement an accurate representation of reality. The entire point of this scene is to show us how deeply mistaken Sasuke is about Sakura (and, by extension, the rest of Team 7). He’s locked into a false pattern of thinking. His single-minded focus on revenge and destruction has blinded him to the unconditional love his friends feel for him; he’s become so accustomed to using others and being used that he can’t understand or accept that someone would care about him without needing a reason, without needing him to love them back, without needing to receive something from him in exchange.

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers! She only wants to save you.

Sasuke matters to Sakura as more than a love interest. He always has. She does love him romantically, yes, but she doesn’t only love him romantically, and her desire to help him is not and has never been contingent on him returning her feelings, romantically or otherwise. Sasuke isn’t able to acknowledge that in this scene, but that doesn’t mean we’re supposed to just sit back and agree with his warped perspective. Kakashi is the one who’s explicitly positioned as the voice of the narrative here. We, as the audience, are supposed to recognize that Kakashi is the one telling us the truth.

[tangential thing 1: You don’t have to love Sakura's last plea to Sasuke here. It’s not my favorite, either - the best part, other than Kakashi’s speech at the end, is the moment after Kakashi collapses when Sakura’s expression changes from pained uncertainty to pure rage, when she grits her teeth together - when I first saw that, I almost leapt out of my seat like “Oh my god. She’s finally going to let him have it. It’s finally happening - ” I wanted that so badly, and I still think it would have been a more effective writing choice for Sakura’s last words to lean more into her anger at the suffering Sasuke is causing all of them (himself included!) and less into yet another of Kishimoto’s “let me have Sakura articulate what a shame it is that she can’t do as much as Naruto despite the fact that I literally just went through a major reveal sequence in the war to show that she’s caught up to the boys; I can’t make up my mind about whether I want her to progress or not” - it’s extremely frustrating (and it's something he does at the very end of the S10 Team 7 reunion, too, which is the ONLY moment of S10 that falls flat for me). But at the same time, even if there are ways this sequence could be more satisfying, it doesn’t change the fact that her plea to him is not remotely motivated by a desire to be with him romantically and not anything to condemn her for.]

[tangential thing 2: I do like how she remembers that moment when Sasuke says “Thank you.” That panel precedes her saying “If there’s even a tiny corner of your heart that thinks about me…” (which I’m sure is one of the things that people like to criticize about this scene, aka “oh she’s sooooo self-centered” etc), but that particular line of dialogue is preceded by that particular flashback panel for a reason: Sakura knows that Sasuke DOES think about her. He thinks about all of them. Sakura remembers that “thank you,” and it reminds her that despite everything Sasuke has done and said since, despite all evidence to the contrary, she knows in her bones that his expression of gratitude back then was genuine. He cared about her once. He cared about all of them. She’s trying to reach the part of him that still does, if it exists.]

[tangential thing 3: The fact that Kakashi says “she suffers from loving you,” and it triggers Sasuke to remember his own family - thinking about how much he suffered (and still suffers) from loving them - “Perhaps…those are the ties to a failed past” - the idea that it’s not worth it to have bonds if it means you suffer this much…that it’s too difficult, it’s too painful, and if Sakura and the rest of Team 7 were smarter they would just give it up (all Sasuke knows how to do now is sever potential bonds before they can hurt him; so why aren’t Sakura and the rest of his teammates doing that, why can’t they let it go, why are they making this so hard - ) << yeah, he clearly doesn't care about her/them at all.]

4. the shadow of my family

This has all been a really long way to answer the original question, but the short response to “What do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura?” is “I really care about it,” just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Naruto, just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Kakashi. And I don’t think the story ever asks me to choose between them.

I’m not sure whether it’s the impact of Boruto-era “canon” that gets in the way of other people approaching things this way (I don’t consider sequel material when I evaluate the original story), or if it’s Kishimoto’s frequent disinterest in/disrespect towards female characters, which yes, does sometimes make it harder, or if it's a shipping thing (bane of my existence), or some combination of factors, but for me, taking one member of Team 7 out of the equation hobbles the rest of the story. I can’t read/watch Naruto while hating one of the protagonists and loving the other three. It doesn’t work like that for me. The story wasn’t written that way, and there’s nothing in the text that would cause me to receive it that way.

That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with disliking one of the main foursome (or any character, for that matter) - obviously we're all going to have different preferences, and everyone is free to enjoy or reject whatever parts of a story they want, or to like or dislike whatever characters they want. I know that some people have more fun disregarding canon and doing their own thing, which is fine. My own personal zone of enjoyment comes from receiving the story as closely to how I think it was intended to be read as I can, and personally, when I look at this particular story, what I see is that all the members of Team 7 clearly demonstrate their love for Sasuke in ways that he himself later recognizes and acknowledges. All of them are driven by their desire to save him and their unwillingness to hurt him. All of them make repeated choices to chase after him when he runs away, to trust him when he hasn't exactly earned it, to give him another chance when he doesn't appear to deserve it. ALL of them, not just Naruto, do these things multiple times throughout the story, and Sasuke owes his life (and thus his eventual recovery) to ALL of them, many times over. Kakashi disobeys Hokage-elect Danzō and breaks the law to negotiate for Sasuke's life with a foreign head of state. Sakura and Kakashi both have opportunities to kill Sasuke in the Land of Iron, and they choose to spare him instead. Kakashi stops Sasuke from killing his only friends at two different points in the story, which would have been a mistake Sasuke couldn't have recovered from. Sasuke would have died in Kaguya's desert dimension if Sakura hadn't saved him (Sakura, who knew that Sasuke wasn't even truly on her side yet, who knew he'd abandoned her for dead multiple times already that day). Kaguya's bone bullet would have killed Sasuke too, if Kakashi, with his intention to die in Sasuke's place, hadn't leapt in front of it (Kakashi, who also knew that Sasuke wasn't fully on their side yet, who also knew that Sasuke had abandoned him for dead earlier that day). Sasuke and Naruto would have BOTH died in the Final Valley if Sakura and a severely injured Kakashi hadn't chased after them to heal their injuries.

Remove any one member of Team 7, and Sasuke never makes it home. Without the combined efforts of all three of his teammates, he doesn't survive. That’s the way it should be, thematically, for a story whose first and most foundational premise was the importance of teamwork, and since Sakura was just as essential to that framework as everyone else, I’m just as invested in her relationship with Sasuke as I am in his relationship with everyone else. You can’t remove one leg from a four-legged stool without damaging the integrity of the entire structure, and for me, discounting any single member of Team 7 irreparably damages the integrity of the entire story.

TL;DR: I love all of the Team 7 relationships, including Sakura and Sasuke's, because despite what some segments of fandom seem to believe, the text of the story never gives me any reason not to.

#naruto #meta #replies #anyway that's that! hopefully that is a helpful answer #thank you for the question! i honestly don't think i would have ever gotten around to writing about this if i hadn't been directly asked #i love talking about the stories i enjoy (obviously; we all do; that's why we're here)#but i'm usually ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ about responding to takes that blatantly misread the narrative to justify hating a particular character or ship #mostly because a) it's whatever. as long as people mind their own business and leave me to enjoy myself they can do what they want #and b) some opinions are so divorced from the actual text that they're not worth discussing #like. what's the point of responding to random internet posts saying that sakura was selfishly pursuing sasuke as a lover the entire time #when that is textually and provably not the case?#if you're that committed to experiencing things in direct contradiction to what the narrative is asking of us then just go ahead #is it mildly annoying to me? sure. but so are lots of things and it's better to just let stuff go #like - i initially planned to take this piece of meta all the way up through sakura and sasuke's last scene together #the one where he tells her 'maybe next time' and finally reclaims and redefines itachi's forehead tap (INCREDIBLE. THIS SCENE.)#but ultimately i changed my mind because everything i wrote for that last section was coming out too harsh #i generally prefer to talk about fandom stuff in a chill/friendly approachable way #but i kept thinking about the most obscenely & disrespectfully inaccurate read of that scene i'd ever seen #and i couldn't figure out how to talk about it in a non-scathing way #that scene and the one where naruto gives sasuke's headband back are the ONLY well-written things about the finale of naruto #they are SO perfectly constructed and i can't respond to people slandering either one without feeling an urge to kill #so i just deleted it. partially because again - this is fandom; it's not that serious; people can do what they want #but also because i know i get extra frustrated about people picking over the text and plucking out isolated bits and pieces #to contort into blatantly misinterpreted mutant shapes that 'confirm' whatever pre-existing judgments or ships they had #instead of experiencing the story as a cohesive whole & keeping in mind the greater context of what it's always been trying to communicate #people on this website say 'we all interpret things differently :)' as if it means no one can ever be wrong about what a text is saying #newsflash: not all interpretations of a text are valid. things can't in fact mean whatever you want them to mean.#the ***story*** persists and exists even if the author is dead to you #if you choose to ignore that then that's fine; it's just fandom; who cares. but i'm not going to pretend you're 'analyzing' anything.#(ok now i'm really done. you can see why i deleted this section XD)

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voidlingduck · 3 months

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Hazbin Hotel - Thoughts and Rewrite

Having seen the first four episodes of Hazbin Hotel, and having been casually following the Hellaverse since the pilot (I have watched the shows but not consumed any outside material) - I have had a lot of thoughts about the storytelling of Hazbin Hotel so far. In discussing my thoughts and feelings with @ekholocationn I ended up having some ideas on how I would handle the overall arc and plot of the show to make for a tighter narrative and address some of the flaws I found with the work.

This is very much a broad strokes kind of rewrite at this point, and trying to stay relatively true to what has been presented to us so far - it mostly involves shuffling things around and reorganising/refocusing the plot.

The main complaint with the plot of the show is that the Heaven plotline feels rushed and the cards are being played too soon, what feels like it should be a twist is laid bare in the first episode and furthermore it undermines the very purpose of the Hotel and Charlie's plan. Heaven as not merely an antagonistic, but an actively villainous force, feels like it's come too soon - and the way it's being explored isn't really satisfying. Camilla's reluctance to fight is difficult to justify, where Velvette, who is arguably framed as a villain, seems to be onto something and correct.

Speaking of Velvette however, her and the Vee's are what I feel are the shows strongest aspect at this point. These are villains that have incredibly strong personality and presence, and moreso, personal connections and investment to the cast at the hotel. Vox and Velvette's songs are some of my favourites, and Valentino is shown to be a serious threat to Angel and his potential for redemption.

This in mind, in my rewrite of the show, Season 1 of Hazbin Hotel would cast the Vee's as the primary antagonists to the hotel, and leave the angel's in heaven and their villainy as a mystery and twist reveal for later in the show.

Charlie has no reason to believe her plan won't work, in fact, she has a powerful Overlord as a benefactor - who while he seems to be a little disparaging, is still putting resources into her project. She is doing what she can to try and rehabilitate these sinners, however, the Vee's want to see this project fail and become active threats to the Hotel. Vox, because of his rivalry with Alastor, and Valentino because he wants to keep control of angel. The primary tension is the push and pull between Charlie as a force of redemption and light, and the Vee's as a representation of temptation, vice and hell's worst qualities trying to keep the sinners down. Charlie does not meet with Adam and the angels in Episode 1, rather, she is seen to be optomistic and hopeful, and Heaven is kept as this guarded mystery and protectors of order and goodness.

What about Velvette the other Overlords, and the angels though? I greatly enjoyed Respectless, and I don't want to snub Velvette, who is clearly a powerful villain in her own right. I don't want to completely erase the plot of the exterminated angel and Heaven's violence from the show. I would keep the scene of the Overlords meeting, and Velvette revealing the angel's severed head, however I would make a few tweaks. Firstly, this would be the first time we find out about the fact that an angel was killed - we are just as shocked as the other Overlords. Secondly, the Hazbin Hotel would be more of a point of discussion, and we would get a more overarching conflict between the Hotel and the Vees regarding what to do about the problem of Angel Extermination. Do we attempt to redeem sinners? Or do we just kill the Angels? I think for the purpose of this plot, the revelation that Heaven is moving up its extermination would coincide with the meeting of the Overlords, really being a trigger for it, and this episode would act as a midpoint - raising the stakes and introducing the broader conflict after a few episodes settling into the attempts fo the Hotel to redeem sinners and the Vee's attempts to intervene.

In this story rather than being the way the show opens, Charlie meeting with the angels would instead be a sort of climactic moment - and the revelation that Adam is a jerk and Heaven has no intention of letting sinners rise but instead wants to exterminate them would be a sort of Darkest Hour moment for Charlie. Her plan has failed, the Vee's are gaining more support... This way, there's been some build up, and the twist feels more like a twist - and it also feels like more of a gut-wrenching betrayal because both us and Charlie by this point would have investment in her plan and a hope that it might actually work.

I want to see how the show handles it's ending before I fully flesh out this rewrite, but for now this is the sort of broad strokes as to how I would approach structuring Hazbin Hotel if I were to rework it. I may or may not expand on these thoughts later when there is more material to work with! This post also does not touch on more nuanced topics such as the shows handling of sensitive issues and character arcs, it is more of a broad strokes analysis and retooling.

I thought it might be fun to share my thoughts and I hope people enjoy them! I would love to hear other peoples thoughts on this as well :)

#hazbin hotel #hazbin hotel rewrite #hellaverse #hazbin rewrite #hazbin hotel critique #i find this show interesting to examine as a piece of media spawned from internet ocs #i have a lot more thoughts but including everything i think about hazbin hotel as a show would be too long and rambling #i didnt really discuss the issue of how the show establishes characters to a first time audience and builds investment #but its something i would discuss if i expanded on this idea #i think hazbin hotel has potential and i really want it to be good but it definitley falls flat in a few key areas #this is a pretty light rewrite all things considered #its more of a reshuffling at this point

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adhdandcomics · 11 months

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adding to my tags because i’ve been thinkin a lot about the post i just reblogged and have more thoughts:

i’ll be real, the more i saw ‘hey adhd influencers are so annoying’ the more i worried that i was unconsciously contributing to the spreading reputation of adhd folks as annoying and over-pathologizing every symptom they experience

and then i realized. i am not a goddam influencer or life coach or representative. obviously i have some obligation as someone who cares about myself and the people that like my comics to not spread harmful ideology or blatant misinformation but i never intended myself to be a “’increase your productivity!!’ blog OR a ‘if you have XYZ you have adhd!’ blog. and i do this for fun, and originally started this blog bc i had a lot of internalized shame and self loathing about my adhd and thought if i could make it funny i might have less of that. let’s get real! and it worked!

i’ve obviously done this kind of thing— (hey these symptoms might be adhd!) a lot before in my life & on this blog, but there’s more to it than trying to be an “influencer” or whatever. a term that didn’t even exist when i started this blog!

i felt very isolated trying to find out if i had any mental problems & what have you originally because of large advice (etc) blogs with staunchly anti self Dx views at the time

so i overcorrected when i DID get dxed and tried to validate everyone who was like me. and of course. not the best course of action always for the ol mental health. tried to be the source of positivity and jokes that i didn’t see because the online adhd presence was near non-existent.

and anyway. i make a lot of fun of myself & the way m brain works in my comics obviously but it is not my obligation to... how do you say.... not be annoying online.

because if folks interpret MY little jokes as a strict guide to diagnosis. that’s on them, really, not me. i also believe “making adhd your entire personality” is a non-issue. so what if people find out they have it and get over excited with identifying as adhd. saying this as someone who DID do it. criticism of this gives the same vibes as people being annoyed that young queers make “being queer” their whole personality. im very obviously more than a guy with adhd, and id reckon other adhd comic artists are too. (im friends with a lot of them!) it’s fine to post about it online.

anyway. i just don’t take myself too seriously and i’m a comic artist for myself first! and you know what, i’ve been considered annoying my entire life. what do i care if a few more folks think i’m annoying. neurotypical or not

#i think the article did have some good points especially on the capitalism and marketing angle but i oft think it did venture into #being mad at individual folks who post jokes about adhd. which is literally fine thats what an opinion piece is for lol #i am just very tired of people pretending that a lot of reaction to online adhders is not in itself just an extension of the ableism #we already were facing #'adhd people are so annoying everyone does this youre pathologizing everything' ok and how exactly are you helping.#i hesitate to throw my hat in with hating on adhd tiktok because i am simply not on tiktok and have no way to back up my thoughts #that they may be annoying and oversimplifying a complex disorder on the 'drains your attention span' website.#and i think perhaps the value of each adhd resource varies widely depending on who made it and what theyre even posting.#sometimes its a joke made by a person with adhd. sometimes its sourced and cited research. sometimes its someone discussing their personal #experiences in depth. sometimes its someone talking completely out of their ass. sometimes its THINLY veiled ableism.#its up to the individual to research and determine the value of the memes and resources you seek #anyway. perhaps these points are tough to clarify on sites like insta and twitter. bless.#text #adhd #im punk now #oh and yeah i also agree lots of folks do not talk about the unsavory parts of adhd but rather the funnies and the sillies. but that is #once again a larger capitalism and marketing and ableism problem #r we not talking about them because we are actively trying to infantalize this disorder or is it because we collectively experience a lot #of internalized ableism and hesitate to talk about our worst symptoms for fear of the backlash #weve always gotten about them 🤔🤔🤔#much to consider #if youve read this far sorry for tangent number 56 about this. but also start being more unapologetic about your disorders. fuck it!#<3

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altarwaiting · 2 months

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I'm far from the first person to say this but I do wish taylor would say something about palestine like even a link to donate would raise so much money or telling people in the US to call their representatives for a ceasefire like for better or worse people DO listen to celebrities and she has the ability to make an impact

#personal #'you shouldn't take political cues from celebrities' okay we can discuss that but people take cues on everything from celebs like #it's better to use it to do some good!#debating making this not rb-able bc im not gonna argue about this point...but yeah

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artheresy · 2 months

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An argument over whether or not Dan Heng is Dan Feng seems to have begun getting sparked again in certain parts of the Fandom and it does nothing but hurt my head to no end

Both sides cherrypicking or treating it like a strange situation, making false equivalents. "Yknow governments don't consider people who've lost their memories to be separate people" that's a flawed argument to use in favorite of DH = DF because it's not just he lost his memories. He literally grew up, experienced his own childhood, had a whole identity cultivated based on those experiences and that life and continues to live his own life. To treat the situation like it's just him getting a bit of amnesia is wild to me

But also I hate when people continue to insist he's running from Dan Feng and his past and how he's miserable and shouldn't ever confront the past and deal with it as if his and Blade's whole stories aren't centered around rebirth and karma, paying for your past life's karma. He needed to confront the past to ensure a freer future! He literally has!! And he will continue to do so because he realizes this, DH isn't dumb and he's grown since we first saw him. He understands

But yeah uh I'm so tired

This whole thing feels very Ship of Theseus. What makes the ship what it is, the physical aspects of its planks, its sailing history, or both?

For him, the question is what makes someone who they are? Is it the body that makes them up and any inherent genetic factors (like traits)? Is it their experiences, how they've grown up, and the identity they've developed in that time? Or is it both factors mixed together?

Personally in the case of Dan Heng, I think it's both! Yeah he has a lot of traits from Dan Feng. There's a lot inherently there. But we can't disregard his own experiences and the identity that has formed based on his history and what he's seen.

Again I can't stress this enough... It is a false equivalent to compare him to people who lose their memories or get amnesia, he didn't just lose those memories. He started life from the beginning, a whole different kind of life. And even then, the amnesia topic comes with its own debates. Isn't there a whole other thought experiment regarding someone put to trial who ends up with amnesia and what their verdict should be?

I guess in the end, it's all up to people's own philosophical beliefs after what constitutes a person. My personal belief that DH and DF will always be connect but the separation between them is also meaningful is something based on my own ideas of what consisitutes a person and their individual identity, similar situation with how I see Rukkhadevata and Nahida as connected but still not the same person exactly. At the end of the day again, it's personal beliefs

But what I can't stand and can't stand by, is someone acting all high and mighty like they're perfectly right and everyone else is wrong, especially when they're cherrypicking or not holding all their evidence to the same standard. According to some ppl, apparently it's better in the CN fandom where instead of treating it like "I'm right you're wrong" people have divided themselves into "DF and DH one person" and "DF and DH two people" groups and most importantly of all, they treat both like theories and just keep to their space and tag which they believe when it's relevant. Why can't we just do that? Why can't we follow in their footsteps instead of bringing up this argument every so often with the same tired flaws from both sides?

#Lore discussion in this community can be so tiring #I wish more people would be open to their viewpoint being challenged instead of believing they can never ever be wrong #And seeing people throw out wild accusations #Like someone saying people are transphobic if they believe dh is df like what?#I get it if you identity with dh and read it as a trans narrative personally even if I dont #Doesn't mean you can call people transphobic over it #I dunno I'm tired #Everything I see this topic I get mad #“He says you're my past in the ichor of two dragons!!”#He also says right after “But you won't follow me into my future” so your point is?#Additionally if we're being 100% real that animation feels like it's less about his rejection and eventual acceptance of DF specifically #It feels more so like his rejection of the role of Imbibitor Lunae given what I've talked about about the DF being there would never say #Any of those things how it's based on his biased view of him and is a projection of things he was told growing up likely #So I'm tired #One of the only good arguments I've ever seen to say DH is DF is in regards to how he clings to DF's old stuff #I have things to say about it personally #But it's a MILES better argument than some of the other ones I've seen and even then my arguments against it would still be an up for #Interpretation kind of thing like the initial argument rather than pointing out someone is looking at the full picture #Again I respect how people see it! Believe what you want to believe about it again it's all about our own perspectives #Just don't be a dick to people on either side if you don't agree with them #Dan heng #Dan feng #Hsr #Honkai star rail

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