#and more and more it feels like Boy Nonbinary

[our-lesboy-experience]

hiii!!! so uh, this is sorta about 'contradicting' (?) identities in general, but i only recently found out about, like, lesboys and gaygirls and all of that, but what is it exactly? like how does it work? or is that weird to ask? i'm trying figuring myself out but a lot of stuff i've seen doesn't exactly... explain it (or explain it well), and while i guess i do get why, it's just kinda hard to understand it myself for my own identity

also, probably a question you get a lot in a hating way, but isn't the definition of lesbian nonman loving nonman? so then how does lesboy work? like is it for people with more complicated gender identites, like fluctuating genders and bigender? just genuinly confused, my apologies...

sorry for not getting to this sooner- been busier lately and didn't have the time to collect everything I needed to respond!

About what it exactly means to be a lesboy or a gaygirl ('turigirl' is the more common term, 'turi' meaning turian, another word for gay attraction to men. so I'll be referring to it as that from now on), there isn't exactly....one right way to call yourself such. it really depends on the person, but I can give you a basic definition and a list of common reasons someone may call themselves such

im gonna put a read more because this ended up being super long so sorry

lesboy is a term for any lesbian who may have a connection to manhood and/or masculinity. turigirl is just the opposite of that, a gay person (mlm/nblm) who may have a connection to womanhood and/or femininity. common reasons I've seen are:

being multigender or genderfluid

being cusper/in between trans and cis gnc (in between trans man and cis gnc woman, in between trans woman and cis gnc man)

being a system who uses lesboy/turigirl as a collective identity or when identities blur together

a person who uses man/boy or woman/girl as a means of masculine or feminine gender expression but not actually identifying as such

being a trans man/ftm or a trans woman/mtf who still identifies as lesbian or gay for personal reasons

those are far from all the reasons, everyone has their own unique experiences, but the gist is these people may have some sort of connection to manhood/womanhood while still having a queer attraction. personally, I'm multigender, genderfluid, and transmasc. lesboy I find is a nice label to express being both my bigender self and being a lesbian, as it forces people to acknowledge both without separating the two. it's cute and makes me feel validated!

as for "nonman attracted to nonmen" definition of lesbian......it has its issues. it's received criticism all around from all sorts of lesbians in the community. this definition is very new - it emerged only in the recent years, and someone on twitter had date searched it and found it didn't even really exist before 2019. and having that as the one and only official definition that every lesbian has to abide by, when lesbian is a centuries old word with so much history behind it, is a bit ignorant. people who are multiple genders or ftm or bi being lesbian is not even remotely new, going back decades upon decades, and it never stopped existing too. It's a bit weird to have a whole new definition that doesn't include all sorts of lesbians that have been here for so long and just tell them they're not welcomed anymore, right?

that's not even close to the only issue there is with it. it's been disliked for centering lack of attraction to men, or defining lesbian in relation to men, rather than who we're actually attracted to. putting nonbinary people in a new binary of either being "men or nonmen," which not all feel comfortable putting themselves into. especially when considering a definition of gay being "nonwomen attracted to nonwomen," man-woman bigender people are simultaneously excluded from being both lesbian or gay. It inherently overlaps with mspec identity ("attraction to nonmen, which is more than one gender" and "any orientation that involves attraction to more than one gender" kinda obviously overlap), despite people insisting that a lesbian can never be mspec. people have found multiple loopholes in it, (which I can elaborate on if someone wants me to, for the sake of trying to make this as short as possible), and lastly, and term "nonman" (and nonwoman) were found to have existed before to describe the degendering of black people in society. this isn't the only source I've seen for this, but sadly I can't exactly find it (or find it without going back to that hellsite called twitter and I'm not doing that to myself)

oh and as the link points out, defining lesbian by these words also ends up excluding a lot of two-spirit people from ever identifying as lesbian, myself included. which is also really racist. I don't know how you're gonna end up excluding a whole cultural gender that's common for indigenous americans to describe themselves with and try to prove it somehow isn't racist, to be honest

and lastly, some surveys/polls have shown that the definition isn't the most widely accepted by lesbians as people make it out to be. there's this simple poll that someone posted asking how lesbians felt about the definition that received 1,529 responses, and 61.1% of voters said they disliked it. comments gave lots of reasons I've stated already. there was another survey put out that received 211 responses that for any lesbian who had a genderqueer or unique relationship with gender, and one of the questions asking opinions on the "nonmen loving nonmen" as a definition. the average among the group was slightly negative (average 2.838), and reported that the group who tended to feel the most positively about it didn't consider themselves to be trans, with the other positive leaning group considered themselves to be somewhat cis. the group that felt the most negatively sometimes considered themselves to be trans. and of the multigender participants, the average opinion was 2.255 (more negative than the overall average). When concluding, the original poster stated, "When divided by gender, the only groups to feel positive about this definition were "not trans" and "somewhat cis" participants. Multigender participants felt especially negative about this definition"

all of this shows that this definition isn't nearly the best for everyone who considers themselves a lesbian. I know it's been a way to include nonbinary people who are lesbian in it's definition, but I think it really misunderstands why nonbinary people are included in lesbianism in the first place, and just assumes that all nonbinary people aren't men and fails to recognize that multigender/genderfluid people are nonbinary too. and it's not like lesbian has to only have on definition- it can definitely have multiple and depend on each person's experience with it. if someone personally defines them being lesbian around being a nonman attracted to nonmen, and takes pride in not being attracted to men, that's totally fine. what becomes a problem is forcing all lesbians to define themselves like this and make it the standard, or else they're "not real lesbians." it is ahistorical and ignorant to require this or else you'll strip them of their lesbian status, and is really at the end of the day, lesbophobic. especially as a requirement that primarily exists in online spaces. im sure the lesbian who is not at all connected to these circles doesn't particularly care about strict requirements or whether someone is a "nonman" or not. in conclusion, it is not the best nor most accepted definition of lesbian, and deciding which lesbians are valid or not based solely on that definition is pretty exclusionary and ends up policing a lot of lesbians, myself included

#lesboy #turigirl #lesbian #gay #multigender #genderfluid #mspec lesbian #asks #tw exclusionism #tw queerphobia #lesbophobia #I can definitely elaborate on some points if asked #I do have some thoughts I've never shared before

[iamthemaestro]

I realize I think a lot about my life in terms of “maybe when I’m a boy…” my brother in christ. maybe you are an EGG

#idk. idk! #I’m not a Man. but I do resonate with Boyhood a lot #that’s the thing #I’m still nonbinary either way #but like. what kind of nonbinary. that is the question #and more and more it feels like Boy Nonbinary #but idk what to do about that. you’d think I would after like four years of being out to people #but I don’t. like what else can I change. I’ve already got the pronouns #I think I’m like… More Trans than I give myself credit for #(that’s a joke you can identify as trans however you want) #but my ocd brain is always like well you’re not trans you didn’t trans anything #which is not true but I mean it like. if I had the chance would I? #I might. but at the moment I don’t have the chance #so I’m just. confused #constantly #it’s exhausting #I don’t feel comfortable for the most part #also intrusive thoughts go brr right now I’m trying to Think #whatever tag ramble over #gender #mine

[carlyraejepsans]

for real WHERE does the idea that [utdr humans] are nongendered so that "you can project on them" come from. their literal character arcs are about NOT being a blank slate to be filled in by the audience

i think i understand the assumption on some level for undertale, because there is a very intentional effort to make you identify with the "player character" in order to make your choices feel like your own (the beating heart of undertale's metanarrative lies in giving you an alternative path to violence against its enemies after all, and whether you're still willing to persue it for your own selfish reasons. YOUR agency is crucial).

of course, the cardinal plot twist of the main ending sweeps the rug from under your feet on that in every way, and frisk's individuality becomes, in turn, a tool to further UT's OTHER main theme: completionism as a form of diegetic violence within the story. replaying the game would steal frisk's life and happy ending from them for our own perverse sentimentality, emotionally forcing our hand away from the reset button.

i think their neutrality absolutely aids in that immersion. but also, there's this weird attitude by (mostly) cis fans where it being functional within the story makes it... somehow "editable" and "up to the player" as well? which is gross and shows their ass on how they approach gender neutrality in general lol.

but also like. there's plenty of neutral, non PCharacters in undertale and deltarune. even when undertale was just an earthbound fangame and the player immersion metanarrative was completely absent, toby still described frisk as a "young, androgynous person". sometimes characters are just neutral by design. it's not that hard to understand lol.

anyone who makes this argument for kris deltarune is braindead. nothing else to say about it.

#this is a very difficult topic to discuss imo because on Some level I don't completely disagree with people who make that argument for chara #in SPIRIT. if not in action. like my point still stands characters can just Be neutral. and if that level of customization had been intended #well Pokemon's been doing the ''are you a boy or a girl'' shtick for ages. no reason why that couldn't have been included as well #but i do feel that we're supposed to identify with chara within the story. not as in chara is us but as in we are chara #and i think someone playing the game without outside interferences and (wrongly) coming to the conclusion that chara IS literally #themselves in the story. and thus call them by their own name (the one they likely inputted at the start) and pronouns #will be someone who grasped undertale's metanarrative more than someone who went in already spoiled on the NM route who thinks of chara #(and on some level frisk as well) as completely separate from us with independent wills and personhoods at any time #who treats them as nonbinary. even if their approach is more ''appropriate'' to a gender neutral person #systematic error vs manually changing every measure to fit what you already think is going to be the correct result. ykwim? #of course this opens a whole new parentheses while discussing the game outside of your personal experience #because even if you DO see chara as a self insert then they are a self insert for EVERYONE. women men genderqueer people #i don't call chara ''biscia'' even though that's what i named the fallen human in my playthrough. neither do i use they because i also do #if you're describing the character/story objectively in how they are executed then you're going to talk about them neutrally #because you ain't the only sunovabitch who played the darn game sonny #so like. either way you turn it. even in the most self insert reading you'd STILL logically use they/them so ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ git gud #answered asks

[thefishdeath]

Never feel more masc then the times I try to look fem

#Crossdressing as a woman is truly the epitome of being a man #I HAVE to be the most confusing person at the grocery store #Voice of boy? but makeup like girl? but boy mannerisms? Girl hair? Boob? lesbianism? Man? Woman? Man? They? It? Maybe #You'll never fucking know. I hope it keeps you up at night #Committing gender fuckary? In my city?. it's more likely than you would think #It's very obvious how boy I am when I try to girl #I love being a weird little guy #I'm that boy thing wearing a dress what's not clicking here #Transmascs im telling you WEAR THAT MAKEUP!!!!! #PUT ON THAT DRESS!!! #only if you want to ofc but there is nothing more euphoric then dressing like a woman and still feeling like a man #but that's the process. A couple years ago wearing nail polish made me sick to my stomach. AND IM AGENDER!!!! #totally just like rambled in the tags mb #transgender #trans masc #transmasc #agender ism #genderqueer #nonbinary #trans man #trans joy #just fishdeath-ing #genderfluid #genderfuck #multigender #xenogender #genderflux #abinary #transneutral #don't know why I'm tagging this so hard but i learned like three new terms so that pretty cool

[micahthemoon]

May 27 2023 Okay, you know what: I am low key angry about all the buzz that Käärijä is getting for having a normal body. People call him ‘fat’ and having to ‘lose weight’ but to me, he looks muscular and healthy. And it is not just online since I first encountered it irl with two girls calling him ‘Winnie the Pooh’. Do you know how much I’d give to have his body? To have his confidence? He is out there proudly showing his surgical scars and his tummy, and all people can see is that he is not model thin.

#this turned out to be more about jere/käärijä than my own gender identity so I'll elaborate a bit here #when people go after käärijä like this it hurts me and probably other like me since I do really wish I looked like jere #my gender envy tells me that this is the ideal to go for #I have actually never really felt drawn to the hollywood thin men and scrawny boys makes me anxious that I'll break them by touching them #and I know I'll never be thin #so people going after jere feels like an attack because if he is not good enough for you guys I'd never be good enough either #I have a strongly feminine coded body and I hate it even if people compliments it #so if let's say I actually ended up looking like jere then how would people even see me? these people's action tells me that they'd scorn me #scorn me for looking like my ideal self #for looking freaking normal #think about all the people looking like jere right - you are putting them down as well #by commenting negatively on one person's body you do not only hurt the person themselves but everybody with the same body type #or idiots like me having this bodytype as their ideal #micah out #käärijä #jere pöyhönen #esc #esc2023 #transgender #nonbinary #transmasc #gender envy #late entry #entry #findingmicah #also sorry for the rant

[fuckdamn]

everytime i’m faced with wild overt misogyny that’s just platformed like it’s nothing i remind myself that people don’t actually have to feel this way about women. men are fully capable of treating women like human beings and viewing them as such. “but socialization but male fantasies but patriatchy speaks through us even when we don’t recognize it” sure but actually regardless there exist men who are fundamentally not raging misogynists and they generally seem happier and better adjusted. misogyny to me isn’t disappointing because “oh i can’t believe Men, as an essentialized category of person, are like this” it’s disappointing because people make the choice to be like this. “it’s my biological imperative as a man to dominate you” okay well it’s my biological imperative as a freaky bitch to dominate you so what now. what biological imperative is making you comment “onlyfans detected opinion rejected” on every picture of any attractive woman. i think i will always be understood by most people as a woman and i’m learning to accept that and trying to like it but misogyny makes me feel very trapped of course. but misogyny is a choice. which means some people make the choice to be misogynistic which is profoundly frustrating. but many other people choose not to be actively misogynistic and i believe anyone could choose not to be actively misogynistic if they wanted. so it’s a whole thing

#lotte.txt #womanhood is a fun thing to participate in with women who do not hate women. otherwise it’s very stifling and starts to not be worth it 4 me #for other girls — cis and trans btw — i think relishing in womanhood still feels worth it even when it’s very difficult and i admire that #but apart from my fashion sense and bloodlust i feel very detached from womanhood as like this primal animate Essence #but i don’t really want to be a man either. i like being a Weird Girl i like being a Hot Weird Girl #i’m more of a Hot Weird Girl than a Hot Weird Boy and i’ve discovered that through trial and error #and calling myself nonbinary/fluid accurately describes my experience in a lot of ways. but i also sometimes feel like the label doesn’t.. #serve me? if that makes sense #like i got really into kibbe in 2020 and it was like oh shit i’m a soft dramatic. how cool that there’s something that describes my body #but after a while i got exhausted with kibbe because yeah. by the logic of the system of course i’m a soft dramatic #and i operate with that knowledge in the back of my mind. but also so what. i am aware of the shape of my body now #and now i feel the label has very little left to offer me #like if you’re asking? sure i’m a kibbe soft dramatic. but i don’t hold kibbe’s system as law or view it as crucially important #that is very much how i feel rn about calling myself nonbinary #like if you want me to think about it? yeah i don’t strictly conform to the gender binary #but i don’t believe gender itself is useful for my growth - i don’t hold the institution of the gender binary sacred - why bother #why draw attention to where i exist within the system when i’m tired of defining myself in terms of the system at all. yk #aUghj. anyway

[lightblueminecraftorchid]

having entirely normal feelings about my gender no further questions at this time Please And Thank You

#blue chatter #side Y Catholic mutuals shield your eyes #having… emotions. #got a couple nice button ups from a thrift store w a friend and wearing one today and… oh. *oh*. #I didn’t think I liked that style of shirt bc it looks p masculine #but w a couple details making it more androgynous… #hoo boy #normal gender feelings (lying) #like ‘oh shit I could live here and I would like it’ #don’t get me wrong I still love being v feminine #just #I don’t think I’m just a girlie #think I might be nonbinary #uhoh

[moltenhair]

It's funny to be an adult who didn't realize they were queer until they were grown. Turns out those "crushes" on the cool boys weren't crushes. It was gender envy, but I didn't have the vocabulary to convey that

#lgbtq #nonbinary #i have such a distinct memory of a boy in middle school #i remember nothing about him but his look #he was one of those cool tall lanky emo kids who wore what he wanted had painted nails and dyed hair #even had the classic emo hair cut #he was also a sweet kid #if my friends hadnt made my “crush” weird i think i could have been friends with him #we talked every now and then but then when i went on to high school i never saw him again #i think his name was chris #i remembered him a few weeks ago and i realized it was never about having feelings toward him #it was how cool his vibes were and wanting to be more like him #not in a following a trend sort of way but a #'i finally have a visual representation of how i feel on the inside' #but at the time i was an awkward little girl with crooked teeth and badly bleached hair with stupid pink streaks my parents put in it #wondering why i didnt feel at home in my body #high school came around and i found a friend who was into emo bands and metal who had tattos and long hair #he was the nicest coolest person i knew and we were friends all 4 years and i finally felt seen #i didnt have a 'crush' on him but he was the cool dude friend i could always talk to and i took so much inspiration from him #he was even a huge artistic inspiration for me

[grapecaseschoices]

are we going back to the early aughts? what is with this new (ancient) trend of if wips where gender selectable is only m/f?

#grapecase vents #idr my tag lmao #grapecase complains #? #it's so -- #if you're gonna do that why not have one character that is just nb or more #it rubs me even worse when the mc cant be nonbinary #i dont think nonbinary is a third magical gender [which is why i love it best when games is like okay character can be m/f/agender or #m/f/demi. or even better character b is f or nonbinary and character z is demi-girl/boy or agender. and they mix up the pronoun titles/ #names. like it isnt all they all. and fine sometimes it is. idk if im making sense. ignore me. im cis so maybe i shouldnt be this annoyed #bc my knowledge is limited but i dont see how knowledge and understanding can be expanded by doing the most normative of things #and it's worse bc i bet all these m/f ros are all cis #idk idk this sounds like a silly annoyance in retrospect when there ae actual things in life to be annoyed about [i am] and there are thing #i actually know about to be annoyed over. it just feels ... weird and ick to me [and dismissive?] #also gonna be out here with 30 ros who are all cis m/f? #boring #and mc is also cis m/f? ew.

[the-gayest-sky-kid]

they dont tell u this but the moment you let yourself just use or not use words and stop caring is when you are truly free

#i stopped caring about my identity a while ago and just let it be whatever and like #yk what? its been pretty good #maybe i dont need to understand it and label it and write it down #maybe it can just be there. itself #and it can be whatever i want and it can change every 6 seconds just based on what flag or word I like more #or what i feel more #maybe today i feel more bisexual and asexual and arospec but tomorrow maybe im gay and aego or maybe just mspec or aromantic #maybe im all of them #maybe im genderfluid or bigender or demigendered or nonbinary or maybe im just trans. in some weird incomprehensible way #i like that one more often i think. just being that #maybe its more boy or maybe im okay being girl or a creature or nothing or maybe im just dapper yk #and you know what. honestly #maybe im just a fag!!!! and its okay!!!!!!! i can just say that because thats me #and i really like that #idk. feeling kinda teary #i just. idk i feel more secure in this than i have abt anything ever #im just this hodgepodge of everything that maybe can just be that. and if i want to name it sometimes i can name it whatever i want #sorry that got really personal i just feel. okay rn #like a good okay #personal posts and stuff idk

[takemetodragonstone]

i have recently been made aware that it’s not normal to feel discomfort and disgust when people use your given name? like that’s not what everyone who doesn’t like their name means when they say they don’t like their name?? hearing mine makes me cringe and sometimes even makes my skin crawl or my stomach drop and you’re telling me most people don’t experience this????

#if you noticed i took my name out of my bio that’s why #also exclusively using they/them pronouns online now #kinda want to try he/they and a new name i picked out but i am a coward #so ill see how i like they/them for now #is this the catalyst of my enby/trans awakening? #if i was more self aware i would have seen it sooner #tbf i did have a masculine nickname in high school that had no relation to my birth name except for beginning with the same letter #i didn’t come up with it myself but i did like it #and my sister has a different masculine/neutral nickname for me #and when my sister and i would play pretend I was always luke when she was leia #also i made half my barbies ftm trans ….. instead of just asking for boy barbies i transed them #I’ve always hated being called young lady or miss or a woman tbh #makes me feel strange. gives me the ick as the kids say #rambling in the tags #these tags are all over the place but im leaving them to document my thoughts lol #personal #trans #nonbinary #gender questioning #lgbtq+ #names

[my-chemical-rot]

Full offense but if you ever refer to me by my sex assigned at birth in any capacity, that is misgendering and I will murder you to death with hammers

#Also!! It’s weird and invasive to ask me about that #I am nonbinary. I am bigender. I am genderqueer. I am transsexual. That is all you need to know #You don’t need to know what genitals I have unless you intend to fuck me #And because I KNOW that binary people (trans and cis alike)(usually more often cis) always have to be FUCKING WEIRD about nonbinary people #I KNOW that when you ask for my AGAB it means ''how should I misgender you in my head'' #or ''which set of misconceptions & expectations should I project onto you'' #Because y’all REALLY do not fucking grasp the concept of Non Binary #yall act like you can think of & treat all AFAB enbies as Transmasc or Woman Lite #and think of & treat all AMAB enbies as Transfem or Man Lite #god where’s that one tweet about how cis people r always like well are you a girl nonbinary or a boy nonbinary #I swear to fucking god. Being nonbinary would be a lot more fun if binary people didn’t feel the need to get on my nerves so goddamn much #Anyways had to get that rant off my chest. god bless.

[sparklygraves]

"How is your cat, Miss March?" asked the boy, trying to look sober, while his black eyes shone with fun. "Nicely, thank you, Mr. Laurence; but I am not Miss March, I'm only Jo," returned the young lady. "I'm not Mr. Laurence, I'm only Laurie."

Louisa May Alcott, Little Women (page 29)

#really enjoying this book waaay more than i expected!!! #it feels shockingly fresh to me #and Jo & Laurie feel queer to me #like here-- they address each other as miss & mister & theyre like noo im not really a girl like that #and im not really a boy like that #trans #nonbinary #just queer loveliness #whatever #im into it #also theyre both a little awkward & i love that #also theres a shared mischief already #so fun #little women #jo & laurie #jo x laurie #jo march #theodore laurence #laurie #louisa may alcott

[crush-like-that]

sometimes i think i should be a boy

#back on this bullshit #i dont think i specifically WANT to be a boy #but i also dont like myself the way i am right now #but i'm not nonbinary or genderfluid #and gnc does not give me the closure i feel like i need #but whenever i think of my future i think of someone taller. with broader shoulders. a more masculine face #like... i like my body rn. but when i think of the future i imagine myself just being more masculine #i imagine people looking at me and thinking “that's a... girl.... right?” #and it makes me happy #when i think of myself being in love i imagine this more masculine version of myself with a partner #when i think of being happy i think of this more masculine version of myself #and i dont know what to do about it #i dont want to change my gender. i think i'd just like to be comfortable #trans #? #gnc #queer #tobi post #help or advice or similar stories well appreciated

[cpyclopse]

Uni era Jon ft. The Admiral

My art (click for better quality)

#i have mixed feelings on this one #the one with just jon looks much better #i have this hc that jon has this oversized corduroy jacket and its like his comfort jacket #its old and worn but its warm and nice and he has it all his life #idk i have a comfort jacket i wear all the time #i honestly just wanted to draw a boy in a skirt #jon isn't necessarily a man but hes man aligned so #nonbinary jonathan sims #rights #tma #the magnus archives #jon sims #the admiral #hes a raggedy orange cat #he was a straw until Georgie and jon found him #hes also a maincoon bc my son is and there should be more big cats #just like in general #if they aren't at least 10 lbs and bigger than your torso i dont want them #thats a lie all cats are good #i alsk gave jon what is basically my hair cut #mosss art

[skylordhorus]

oh are we gatekeeping the term tomboy now???

#*deep space noises* #fuck the idea that if you dont ‘look’ enough like something in the way people expect #then you arent it #tomboy is a special word for me #i did not know you could be nonbinary as a child #nor did anyone around me talk about it #but i did know that girl didnt feel right but neither did boy #but i heard the word tomboy #and young me clung to it fervently despite not ‘looking’ or ‘acting’ extremely tomboyish #tomboy granted me a little space where i felt a bit more comfortable with gender #and it wouldnt realise why until much later #so please dont you dare gatekeep that word #dont withhold it from more people like me- learning and pushing and experimenting #leave some space #sigh im going to bed