#and this applies to the blaming cersei part

[ilynpilled]

another thing with denying jaime agency is that a lot of his character is initially constructed around what his physical power means when it comes to choices that he makes. physical strength and combat prowess, violence, is a specific form of power that he has over others and can choose to extend to other parties. it is an integral aspect of every power dynamic, be it with his king, his sister, the rest of society etc. the knight is also an examination of power and responsibility. that is why their oaths are constructed around protecting the weak. it is what’s so interesting with the kingsguard too, especially aerys’s. they are the most skilled in combat and physically powerful people in the room. they had a form of power to act and prevent what aerys kept doing. and they are on a leash through oaths, law, order, obeying authority, and a status quo, a different kind of power that functions to give the man with a crown, in this case a tyrant, absolute power. you are sworn to obey, not to judge. you have to abide by your role. that is also what makes him eventually killing aerys and breaking these oaths so transgressive and threatening to the westerosi paradigm. his motivations and the circumstances aside, jaime in specific killing his king as a member of his elite guard undermined westerosi order and framed power as something that resided with the man with the sword and not with the man with the crown or even the lords with bannermen and armies who won the war that they started. it breaks these constructs apart with the precedent it sets. and on top of that, he gets away with it because of his status and relationship to tywin, which is also a scary precedent in the eyes of many. it is huge when it comes to westerosi order and class stratification, but it is also threatening in general because, yes, it does make him a loose cannon in the eyes of other people. and yeah he stagnates and falls into cynicism and begins to reject ethics and law in a dangerous way and ends up abusing that physical power and causes real harm to people who do not deserve it. he does embody a dangerous kind of anarchy that is the product of the flawed and dysfunctional social order that he experienced with a front row seat with the absurdly cruel tyrant that was systematically enabled. everything was reframed in his head. if there is no justice and order you can have faith in, who cares? he doesn’t fear death, and that is combined with the belief he can cut through anything now, he has the power to do so. be it a king, a lord, or virtually any power over him when it comes down to it. how much can a crown be worth…? he even argues to brienne that robert tearing the realm apart with his war is worse in a pragmatic sense. he rejects the existing laws, ethics, and moral constructs of his society that have a monopoly on violence because he is disillusioned with them, and he operates solely by his twisted reconstruction of morality (also obviously affected by his trauma) that atp primarily revolves around love for his family, especially cersei. he chooses to become the sword of his loved one, having lost faith in the purity of everything other than this delusional idealized relationship that is the only thing that is sacred that remains to him. and ofc all of this is another layer that makes george stripping him of this particular power through his maiming so functional in causing crisis.

#jaime lannister #this is also why it’s important that he is so powerful and skilled #like he has to be that fucking good with swinging that fucking sword for so many reasons #like im so serious when i say its integral when it comes to his psychology and his themes #and hes fully aware like he says its the hand that made him a knight that made him a man that killed aerys that flung bran #jaimes story examines a specific kind of power and responsibility very thoroughly #him getting disowned and maimed smiles like he is progressively losing all of it #and then he loses faith in cersei and her love too #anyways my point id that anybody who tries to use a twisted version of the nuremberg defense with him doesnt really understand him #and this applies to the blaming cersei part #he always owns these actions too like

[a-chaotic-dumbass]

fascinated by how the asoiaf fandom refuses to have any nuance in the books that r entirely based on different perspectives

#asoiaf #fascinating. #this is 100% abt the lyanna elia rhsegar thing bc jesus fucking christ #yes rhaegar cheated on elia and so did cersei and robert and tyrion on sansa too #its almost like rhaegar had a prophesy fuck him in the head since childhood👀 almost like he and elia were an arranged marriage👀 almost #like he didnt love her👀 #like bffr what happened to elia was horrible but its nothing new why r ppl so surprised there was little love in a marriage neither wanted #like have you READ the books nearly every character didnt want their spouse but politics #elia didnt deserve that and neither did her children but dont blame rhaegar for something lannister soldiers did #a song of ice and fire #valyrianscrolls #and god the kingsguard part annoys me sm. yes he took kingsguard with him when he went off to fight #bc kingsguard are a fucking asset to the millitary #anyhow. same is applied to arya and sansa #yes sansa was mean to arya but also: shes 11. a child promised that shell be queen if she acts good and if joff and cersei like her #because of arya sansa's direwolf lady was killed when lady did nothing wrong #and it wasnt arya's fault either bc arya was defending her friend and herself too #but obv sansa was upset and crying. shes 11. ofc she'd say that she wanted arya to die instead of lady she was a CHILD #letd be clear if arya died sansa 100% would've been as or even more upset than when lady or even ned died #sansa and her friends teased arya for having a horse's face. ok. kids r mean? wow

[thewitchqueenofharrenhal]

If I had a nickel every time, I came across a post that said it's Elia's mom's fault for what happened to her I would have enough money to buy myself double quarter pounder from McDonalds. I swear these people will blame anyone for Rhaegar's actions but Rhaegar himself. Their argument is that mama Martell should have known better than to marry off her sickly daughter to the crown prince cause she would've had to have as many children as possible. Okay then why aren't they criticizing Aerys for choosing a sickly wife for his son? Where's the "A wiser king would've chosen a healthier wife for his heir" comments? I think they just don't want a woman of color having ambitions and goals.

I think the implication here is some “when you play the game of thrones you win or you die” type argument because of the *speculated* beef between the Ruling Lady of Dorne & Tywin Lannister.

Which again just falls a part on a deeper analysis. It’s made pretty clear throughout the text that Tywin always had designs on seeing Cersei be a Queen.

The same does not apply to the ruling Lady of Dorne, she very liberally allows *some* level of freedom to all three of her children in choosing a spouse. We know she had designs on Jaime & Cersei because of her previous love with Joanna. An alliance that would have served Tywin but unfortunately fell through. There is never stated to be designs on a Queenship.

When The ruling lady of Dorne got the call for Elia as a bride for Rhaegar whether that came from Rhaella or Aerys is unknown but why shouldn’t she say yes? Lol. Rhaegar by all reports would have been a spectacular catch. This obsession with prophecy wasn’t common knowledge beyond the prince being bookish and what’s wrong with that? Why shouldn’t Elia be Queen if given the chance?

The argument on Elia’s health falls through because Elia has two children in a very short time. I don’t want to get into the (women birthing argument) because it’s nasty gross and misogynistic but she *does her duty* by House Targaryen in an heir and a spare. Rhaella in comparison has one son for many years and I don’t see anyone in the fandom crying over her lack of rights to her Queenship? It’s safe to say Elia met expectations and that argument needs to go.

Elia was going to have to be wed one way or another and why not to the best match of all? Elia’s mother should have said no to appease Tywin’s bruised ego? Or the ego of the many Rhaelyas who are delusional enough to think Lyanna was ever in the running to be bride of the crown prince ?

They definitely hate to see a woc having ambition and making power plays and it’s gross af that’s why they love the Rhaegar & Lyanna footrest Elia fanfics.

But no Elia’s demise was a result of Tywin’s moral decay and a dash of Targaryen madness.

#anon #asoiaf #elia martell

[atopvisenyashill]

look I'm a greenie but I'm sansa devotee first and foremost long before and I will be long after. that is why i have to agree that this idea that rhaenyra's marriage and children shouldn't affect her inheritance being something that doesnt gets applied to Sansa with her own situation by many of these same people is quite interesting.

And Sansa' own marriage hasn't been consummated, nor does she have any children by tyrion that the crown/lannisters can use to claim winterfell. they don't even have sansa anymore! she's escaped

to be completely honest, part of WHY i'm so partial to rhaenyra's side is in fact because of my stark (and martell) devotion. rhaenyra, in both books and show, is put in a really bad spot so her father can mop up his own mistakes, and is given no good options, then blamed for taking the option she thought would be the best. she knows rhaenys was given driftmark as a consolation prize, and she's worried about what happens to her if she's married off to a man that sees her as a womb; this is a girl whose mother and both grandmothers died in childbirth. of course she's being picky and weird about who she wants to marry, especially given that she's a teenager - like, we literally have that moment where Sansa thinks she's going to marry Loras because he's handsome and her age, and is disappointed about Willas, and this feels to me very similar to how Rhaenyra doesn't want to marry Laenor; she knows he's gay and this is going to be an issue for her, and she wants to marry someone she actually knows and likes and trusts.

so when people are like "well what did she expect" it's like well but what was she supposed to do in this situation? annul her marriage and completely alienate the most important allies she has? publicly shame laenor for not being able to have sex with her, once again, alienating her most important allies? rape her own husband?? just not have kids despite her father dangling her inheritance over her head while he's squirting out son after son? so she tries to have a kid, likely assuming her own genes will win out, and it doesn't work the way she wants, every single time. and then instead of anyone trying to offer her any sort of solution - again, no one offers to orys baratheon this, no one offers to annul the marriage, no one offers her a way to protect her sons without pissing off the velaryons, no one even assures her that they won't fucking execute her and the kids - they just go "welp that's why she can't be queen, because she's a WHORE" and then everyone keeps escalating the situation out of fear until she's turning to the one person who is actually offering her a solution and that's daemon. "oh well she could just give up her inheritance" i'm sorry, but you (general you, not you anon) are a fucking joker if you think that Rhaenyra or her oldest boys would ever be safe if she conceded after Laenor died when they're saying that she committed treason by having kids out of wedlock. Corlys may very well withdraw support if he's not getting his grandchildren on that throne as a prize for backing her clearly bastard born kids. She'll never be allowed off Dragonstone or Driftmark again. Something mysterious will absolutely happen to her kids and they'll die and her proof of that is ya know, the fact that this is exactly what happens to Harwin. She's still a constant threat to Aegon's regime, as are her dragon riding children. She was named heir so no, she doesn't get to go back to just ~being a sister~ if she gives up her claim and lives out her days on Driftmark, completely living off the goodwill of Corlys and Rhaenys.

so i find it endlessly frustrating that like, we can acknowledge that marriages in westeros are super fucked up, that jaehaera, aemma, alicent, dany, sansa, cersei, lollys, roslin, lysa, margaery, are all put in situations where they can't say no, where their children are in danger. rhaenyra is put in this exact same situation and she's an overreaching whore. she's a teenager put in a shitty situation by the adults around her, given zero good options, and chooses one bad option out of many bad options because she thinks it will protect her. she is just like alicent, she is put in the same fucked up situation by the exact same dudes - viserys, otto, and daemon - and told "okay don't freak out but your kids in danger" of course she freaks out!! of course they both freak out!!! they're terrified someone is going to murder their goddamn kids in their beds because no one in this situation is willing to de-escalate or bite back their pride and lose a bit.

#like those two have the LEAST amount of options but they get the MOST amount of the hate #and i say this as someone who is like 'book alicent should have tried more with rhaenyra and she's an idiot for not trying' #because ultimately ali is put into that situation because of her idiot father #and i think otto naming rhaenyra as crown princess then marrying alicent to viserys is as stupid of a move as tywin doing the red wedding #just no ability to plan long term. absolute rocks for fucking brains and of course it's their daughters that pay the worst price!! #anons #asks

[lemonhemlock]

The one ASOIAF tiktoker I really enjoyed and had some of the best takes on ASOIAF and HOTD put out a tiktok a few weeks back basically stating that she was either going to no longer post HOTD content or limit it severely because of the hate she got from female fans of Dany and Rhaenyra lmaoo (she didn't say their names directly but it was obvious which character's fans were the issue). This tiktoker is a dark dany believer and was also sympathetic to Alicent and made some incredibly milquetoast critiques of Rhaenyra. Oh course she got hit with 'you're being sexist and using the world building to hide behind your sexism' critiques from #that fandom.

Side note, I do think it's funny how people want to always blame male ASOIAF fans as being The Most Problematic, when some of the worst behavior and most misogynistic hate towards female characters has come from fellow female fans. But that's another conversation lol.

I want to preface this by saying that I have no idea who this girl is, as I don't really remember encountering Dark!Dany truthers in my FYP, but it's good to know they're out there, at least. Doing the Lord's work.

I am kind of torn on this issue, as I imagine that receiving hate mail on an account more closely associated with your real identity is going to sting much more than it would if you were just an anonymous blog on the internet. So I totally get why she'd feel like it's not worth it bothering with that side of the fandom and just bow out. But, at the same time, there's that combative gremlin in me that's outraged at the idea of not being able to comment on such a big part of the text. Like, in a very I'm-not-gonna-let-those-losers-tell-ME-what-to-do way. (And this is very much not me instructing people how to deal with hate & harassment, just more of a general observation, I suppose.)

Additionally, I've spoken about this before, but I don't really know how much it applies to ASOIAF Tik Tokers. Another thing I find tedious is how these commentary channels come to pander to the prevailing discourse in the process of monetization. And, I get it, late stage capitalism is a bummer, so making money off of your hobby looks very attractive, but imagine having to depend on unhinged Dany stans for your next paycheck. It boggles the mind. It's very hard to keep to your true opinions and takes when you've come to rely on this stream of income and it's always going to be more profitable to play up to the masses. This is why I appreciate channels like Hills Alive that persevere despite receiving psychotic backlash.

I agree that female ASOIAF fans definitely love their bit of sexism when it comes to harassing other female fans who don't toe the party line, but I don't really know who to pick when it comes to toxicity. The dudebro reddit/forum dregs were pretty awful back in the day, too, you only have to look up any conversation on Cersei and Sansa and observe their foul language and cretin diatribes.

#ask #anon #anti asoiaf fandom #anti hotd fandom

[madqueenalanna]

got reminded of the gone girl "cool girl" monologue and i decided to look it up cause i wanted to read it again and instead i stumbled across a reddit thread about how that monologue doesn't make sense and is misogynistic???

look. amy is misogynist. she's cersei, she thinks she's the exception, the only Good woman (not Good in the way men think of it, just Good as in Worthy). amy is vindictive, cruel, and prone to black-and-white thinking. but the thing that makes her so compelling, to me, is that while her actions are deranged, her motivations make sense?? she left her entire life behind to follow her unemployed husband to nowheresville missouri where he drains her savings to open a bar and starts cheating on her w a 23 yr old. yes i would probably be quite mad about that too!

and women in the thread saying "this monologue sucks cause i'm 40 and i don't care what men think about me" then it's not for you?? amy is 1000% correct that there is no small contingent of men (emotionally immature, sure, but can be any age) who want the most low-maintenance high-reward girlfriend imaginable, and will compare any real woman unfavorably to that ideal. and immature women (usually young, but not always) twist and distort themselves to match that ideal. i did it myself, for years, even if at 29 i'd rather die than try so hard to impress any man

like, i think the Cool Girl monologue is actually the least objectionable thing amy ever said/did. and i don't even blame her for framing nick or killing desi, cause i'm a feminist and i support women's wrongs. but for real like this IS a thing that happens, and it's not uncommon, and it's exhausting. and people usually leave out the part where she says she was waiting for the reverse, for men to start talking about their feelings and reading pride & prejudice and making out at parties to appeal to women, but they never did so. it's a double standard. she's RIGHT!!! even if it doesn't apply to YOU, the reader, it seems unfathomable to me that you could have never seen this dynamic play out among other people. go outside

something i've noticed from people talking about amy or camille from "sharp objects" or libby from "dark places" (me pretending anyone ever talks about "dark places") is the like, puritan rejection of their ugly sides. i love when women can be complicated! they can be damaged, hurt, wronged, angry, violent, abusive, despondent, manipulative. their "badness" is a huge reason WHY the stories are impactful. "sharp objects" without camille's addictions is nothing. like let's be so for real here. things being disquieting, uncomfortable, taboo, icky, or violent doesn't make it bad writing. grow up

#Gone Girl #One of my fave books of all time I will NOT tolerate the slander of the illiterate

[agentrouka-blog]

Sansa felt that she had swallowed a bat in her tummy when she saw Joffery looking at her in ASOS. In same book she was described as some kind of witch with bat wings fly away after killing Joffery with spells. For me it's foreshadowing for Dany. Dany had a child who had bat wings. She also dream of having bat wings which came true through Drogon. She already engaged in witchcraft in AGOT. Sansa 'killing' Joffery could be implying Dany killing Aegon. Thoughts?

Hi anon!

The question to me is: what purpose do these parallels serve?

The suggestion of Dany connected to regicide or kinslaying is not so outlandish that GRRM needs to try and foreshadow it subtly by using Sansa as a "passive vessel". The parallel is not to the future for Dany but to the past. So the foreshadowing must apply in the other direction.

The entirety of ASOS, but especially the weddings and that wedding breakfast, have a number of parallels between Sansa and AGOT-Dany, and the death of a "king" is no exception.

Sansa witnesses the murder of the guy she was originally supposed to marry, which is officially blamed on her legal husband. It gains her the reputation of a killer. Joffrey and Viserys seem to line up more than Joffrey and Aegon. It's also a vague parallel to Cersei, who thought to marry Rhaegar and marries his killer instead.

Dany "exchanged" Drogo's child for the dragons. Cersei had three bastards with her twin. Sansa has... a leather-winged creature in her belly. Not her husband's work, for certain. If we are going three for three... Brienne is bearing the Lothston bat shield on the first part of her journey to find Sansa, but she paints over it with kingsguard Duncan's personal arms. Not exactly fertility imagery. So this bat likely refers to something closer to what Cersei and Dany did: a "child" by a controversial partner, incest-vibes and an elemental connection to her ancestry: snow. Or a "leather-winged creature", a snow dragon.

The bat-in-tummy is part of a pattern in this chapter: mentions of an upset tummy and moonblood, mentions of burning eggs, mentions of having a baby in her belly by the same Joffrey who triggers the bat comments, mentions of Ellaria bearing bastard children... there is a lot of imagery playing on fertility and bastardy surrounding that bat for Sansa.

She is not Joffrey's bride, and not truly Tyrion's wife, and the bat fluttering in her belly is only an image. It has to be about the future. A bastard bat in Sansa's future. Or, rather, a bastard dragon.

The rumored flight on batwings, on the other hand, is in Arya's POV much later. It underlines the connection between bats and dragons, but it's only a rumor that we know is untrue. Killing with a spell and flying dragon imagery fit Stannis and certainly Dany but not Sansa. The "magic" for Sansa was murder by poison, she climbed down from the castle herself, and her "wings" were the sails of a ship.

I'd venture a guess that this second mention is much closer to the kind of foreshadowing you suggest. This rumor matches the scary stories told of Danelle Lothston in AFFC, which foreshadow a twisted image of Hazzea and how rumors affect Dany's reputation in Essos and Westeros. It stands to reason that this is an instance that paints a contrast between Sansa and Dany. When told about Sansa, the rumor is pretty silly. But people will have reason to tell similar stories about another character in the future, and then they might just be true. Killing kings with a spell ("Dracarys") and flying away and all.

#rouka queue #sansa stark #anti daenerys targaryen #parallels #bats #pregnancy #bastardy #reputation #jonsa

[ladystoneboobs]

While I agree with points of your post that Sansa wasn't necessarily closer to Robb than Jon, that she still wasn't an outsider because of it, that her most positive and underappreciated sibling relationship is Bran (and while you didn't cover her in the post, Sansa is much closer to Jeyne Poole and its notable that aside from her siblings, Jeyne is one of the few people Sansa misses/thinks about when she's not repressing shit) I DO think you were being slightly unfair to try and cast Sansa and Robb's relationship in a negative light, and if that wasn't your intention, then I'm sorry for misreading.

- First off, regarding Robb's reaction to the letter I always saw that as a damnation of Robb being only 15 yo and being thrust into a leader position, rather than his relationship with Sansa. It's meant to highlight his immaturity more than anything else. Maybe it would hold more weight if we saw Robb continue to hold the view that Sansa wrote the letter of her own free will, but we don't because we see him accept Catelyn's explanation

- I'm not pulling out quotes for this because I don't want to make this too long but when Robb meets up with Catelyn again and their discussing Sansa being held captive by the Lannister, Robb is visibly upset when he asks Catelyn if they lose, the Lannisters will hurt Ned and Sansa

- Robb makes it very clear from the beginning that the trade applied to both Sansa and Arya, so while I do think it serves as commentary on how political importance of girls are viewed in a patriarchal system, I don't think grrm was trying to imply that Robb didn't love his sisters. I think it's obvious that he made decisions without always their best interests in mind, I don't think George was trying to imply he didn't love them

- If we consider how Catelyn tells Robb that Grey W is "a part of him", then the reaction of Grey W (along with Summer and Shaggydogs) to Lady's bones being returned home is pretty telling

um, when did i ever say robb didn't love her at all or even give a shit about what happened to her? jon loves sansa dutifully too and cared about her loss of lady, even though she was probably his least favorite sibling. and arya and sansa love each other deep down, despite all their fights and the fact that they're probably each other's least favorite siblings. in a family of six siblings, there's going to be favorites and less-than-favorites and some kids closer and friendlier to some than others. but the starklings are not the greyjoy brothers, or the baratheon brothers, or cersei/tyrion. only those very biased against one of the starks (usually sansa or arya) would deny there's love for all of them. that's not how i feel. i think robb and sansa just weren't all that close and friendly, he had nothing against her but didn't really think of her much either, which can be its own problem.

as far as the letter, it's not that robb wanted to blame her or continued to blame her after learning better bc of some unsaid grudge or bias, no. however, imo, there's a difference between "what's wrong with the girl?" and say, "why would sansa write this?" both speak of shock but one is more shocked at the contents about ned and lack of word about arya, not sansa's loyalty to joff after ned's arrest and ordering robb/cat to come bend the knee to him. to me, it reads as a rhetorical question taking for granted that there is something wrong with sansa. agot!robb the boy lord is a bit dense and still immature at times (too much so at times for me to buy his transformation to military prodigy as totally consistent but that early installment weirdness is another topic), but if his relationship with sansa was as good and sweet as fandom likes to imagine, i think he'd have to be pretty dense indeed to just turn on her without (non-rhetorical) question and believe she fully came up with every word of cersei's herself even before it was explained to him.

as for not trading jaime for sansa/arya, i already said i can't really blame him. that's the feudal patriarchy for ya, and we know pissing off his bannermen wouldn't go well for his cause bc we see it happen later. (even catelyn can't fully disagree until her despair after bran/rickon's presumed deaths.) so no argument there. tho i do get a bit annoyed about how blase he is about waiting to free his sister(s). that reunion scene with cat is the only time we see him express worry about sansa and then it's like his concern disappears after being reassured that the lannisters can't just murder her unless they defeat him first. when he speaks of the possibility of karstark killing jaime in catelyn i acok, he just says it would be a death well deserved, and cat has to remind him of the obvious consequences jaime's murder would bring. it's not that he doesn't care if sansa dies, or that he's too stupid to be aware that killing jaime is a big no-no after he himself first forbid it at the end of agot, it's just that he is not thinking of sansa much at all by that time. he's more consumed with his own vengeful feelings toward house lannister than thoughts about sansa as their captive, and what that means for her even if cersei doesn't want her dead. (generally idt a robb pov was needed as his perspective wouldn't be too unique when we already had ned and jon, but the one thing i would want is his inner thoughts about sansa's plight if/when he did think of her.)

on the wolves, they are a part of their respective humans, but they are autonomous creatures too who are siblings themselves and always have the bond of their pack. even bran wasn't really warging that early on, so shaggy, summer, and grey wind howling was likely the wolves themselves mourning their dead sister, an even greater loss than a living human sister losing her wolf. you can interpret it how you like ofc, and again i am not denying that robb loved all his siblings and would have felt bad for both girls' losses at the trident when he first learned about all that.

i'm sorry if the start of this sounds snippy or defensive bc i was half-expecting pushback. idk maybe i shoudn't have tagged the post with robb's name but these are just my personal thoughts and opinions. and the original post turned into a ramble about robb and bran and rickon based on fanon stuff i've seen for robb/sansa and rickon/anyone where say, a completely fanon quote will be used alongside canon quotes for other sibling pairs. but i was also trying to be vague to avoid feeling rude. i don't dislike robb! i would think the rest of my robb tag with content of robb/catelyn, robb/bran, robb/jon, robb/jeyne w. etc would be proof of that. (and i recognize you have no way of being sure of this, but i am well aware of all catelyn/robb scenes.)

#Anonymous #there's also the scene where crobb learn of sansa's marriage to tyrion #robb is v angry toward tyrion which i'd like to think was not just about winterfell #he speaks of sansa solely in political terms but also suggests marrying her to loras to gain the tyrells #which either means he's never heard of willas or was thinking of sansa's happiness #bc a) ableism b) loras is closest to her in age c) loras has a heartthrob rep and/or d) he knows about sansa getting that rose #from a letter from ned or sansa #but that's more ambiguous bc we don't know if he is passing over willas or just has no idea he exists #robb stark #sansa stark #catelyn stark

[alicenttully]

“sansa’s feminity is defined by social constructs that the man made world created. its materialistic and performative and restrictive. it harms all women. thats not to say women can’t... enjoy certain aspect of it but the objective is female subjugation and that cannot be disregarded.”

There is just a.... lot with that statement.

First off, you can really tell that OP does not understand Sansa as a character (or girls like her) when they say her femininity is “performative”.  

Sansa’s interests in particular things aren’t her attempting to put on some kind of “performance”, it is a natural part of who she is. it would exist regardless of whenever she is canon Westeros or in a modern AU. Could you argue that Sansa has been shaped/influenced by the women around her (Catelyn, Septa Mordane, Margaery, Cersei) Yes, to a certain extent. Because Sansa “being a lady at three” (and going by normal developmental stages, would have been in diapers not that long ago) again suggests to me this is who she is inherently. Using words “performative” suggests falseness and that doesn’t work because a proper look at Sansa’s chapters would understand that her interests/desires/behaviour is sincere.  

Regarding her femininity being “materialistic” …. In that same post, the OP defines Sansa’s femininity as “fancy dresses, pretty embroidery, floral perfumes, dainty desserts, slippers on polished floors, music and dancing, love stories, traditional marriage, courtly intrigue, smiling when you want to cry”

I look at the statement above with OP’s own definition of Sansa’s femininity… and I’m like, where’s the bridge?

This is where you actually need to understand the words that you are using instead of just throwing them in to make yourself sound revolutionary.  The word “materialistic” means “excessively concerned with physical comforts or the acquisition of wealth”.

None of that really applies to the things OP listed.  First off, a lot of the items they listed “floral perfumes, dainty desserts, music and dancing” could actually be considered a form of self-care- that is to maintain “one’s emotional and spiritual health.”  Looking after yourself doesn’t just mean keeping a proper sleeping schedule or drinking water because self-care is unique to the person. Self-care is about that person making themselves feel good.  It is not materialistic.  

Let’s move onto “fancy dresses and pretty embroidery”.  I don’t think liking “fancy dresses” makes you materialistic. If it is, then why are so many Arya stans insistent on arguing that Arya actually likes dresses? Because being materialistic is defined as being “excessively concerned” so in other words, “overly, extremely” – so basically obsession. Sansa loves pretty clothes, but not to the point of being obsessed.  She understands the need for her to dress in simple clothing in the Vale, even if she resents it.  She was genuinely surprised by the dress fitting because Cersei neglected her clothes.

“Pretty embroidery” … I would argue (and somebody correct me if I’m wrong) but embroidery is related to sewing… and that’s actually a really important, practical skill that transcends class lines (something I’ve talked about before)?  People in Westeros – even the rich- simply do not have the luxury where if they were me, the local shopping centre is 10 minutes away by car and at this centre, I have thousands of dresses to choose from right then and there (if money wasn’t an issue) Instead, the clothing that Sansa and Arya wear (both at the beginning of their stories and throughout), as well as the clothing of Catelyn, Cersei, Arianne, Margaery, Daenerys, Beth Cassel, Jeyne Poole, to the small-folk (i.e. Pia) also took the time to make- but the difference lies in that Westeros hasn’t undergone a textile revolution where clothing can be produced at a mass-scale.  That dress Sansa wore for her wedding? Took weeks to make, and if something had happened it the day before- they would not be able to get another copy of it elsewhere.

Furthermore, there’s also the fact that sewing circles/doing embroidery together can actually be a way for women to bond, share conversations, perhaps hatch plans because it is done within a feminine space that their husbands/brothers/fathers don’t cross.

“Music and dancing”. How? Why? Loving music and dancing don’t make you materialistic.  Loving music and dancing- things related to the arts, is deeply human.  It brings joy to people, helps us to connect with others. People often use music as a form of self-healing. The same for dancing, which enables people to express and tell entire stories/send messages through movement.

Fuck off with this “materialistic” bullshit.

“Love stories”.

LOL, what?  How is liking love stories “materialistic”?

And if it is… then why are Arya stans also huge Gendrya shippers? (Which I also ship btw, although I definitely wouldn’t say I’m invested. I can take it or leave it.)

“it harms all women. that’s not to say women…can’t enjoy certain aspects of it but the objective is female subjugation and that cannot be disregarded.”

The issue with that statement is that it is IMO putting the blame entirely on women/girls who happen to enjoy these things naturally (for example, I like to wear pretty clothes because it makes me feel good) rather than the men in their society with the actual power.

Ned Stark might have indulged his 9year old with sword lessons but it is abundantly clear through his POV that he saw it as a passing interest. “She would tire of it soon”. Tywin wouldn’t even consider doing the same for Cersei.  Selwyn Tarth finally relented after Brienne broke three-four betrothals.

Sansa or any girl liking “pretty dresses, perfume, music, dancing, love stories” is not the thing driving female subjugation. You know what I tend to think of when reading the books? I think of how girls can be forced into marriages they don’t want/have their entire futures decided for them at the age of 11/12, be subjected to marital rape, queens being abused by their husband’s Kingsguard, a sex worker being murdered in bed, an eighteen year old girl’s virginity treated as a contest, that same girl being told by Tarly not to look to him for justice if she gets raped,  the fact that smallfolk women if Kingslanding had fallen would have been at most risk of violence/rape, the fact that women can be excepted to keep having more children even though it would be dangerous for them to do (Naerys, Alysanne)

Just… the amount of conscendation and arrogance in that statement (as well as the entire post) is staggering.  imagine thinking you’re writing some sort of feminist post only to degrade women/girls like sansa because they don’t fit your way of being. you do realize you are no different than the adults in arya’s life who keep trying to force her to be someone she’s not? smdh

#sansa stark #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #game of thrones #got #anti arya stans #anti arya stark #not really but to be safe #anti gendrya #ive often seen this post floating around and its always made me cringe #anti asoiaf fandom

[alicentes]

One thing I can’t understand about some asoiaf fans is that they love lyanna and hate sansa despite the similarities in their stories. What is harder to understand is that they hate Sansa for things that also apply to lyanna. They hate Sansa for falling for Prince Joffrey, who manipulated her, and for going to Cersei because she didn’t want to leave kingslanding which some people say contributed to the death of her father and the stark men which then caused a war but lyanna fell in love with Prince Rhaegar, who manipulated her and ran away with him because she didn’t want to marry Robert which you could say contributed to the deaths of her father and brother which then caused a war. Both girls were kept prisoner while their brothers and people fought in war against a “mad king” but only one often gets blamed for her predicament and apparently “deserves” the abuse and imprisonment she receives because she was manipulated as a child and mistakingly put her trust and faith in the wrong people. I bet that if GRRM went with the original outline for Sansa’s story, where she chooses the Prince over her family, regrets it and dies birthing his child (which parallels lyanna even more!) the hatred would just increase and she’d never be considered a tragic story by fans and looked back on with only love and fondness by her loved ones like lyanna was. Her death would be celebrated by the fandom and because she “had it coming” and “deserved everything she got”.

The Sansa/Lyanna parallels are interesting to analyse because of how differently they are perceived. I’ve seen lyanna branded as a strong woman by the same people who call Sansa weak even after surviving all that she survived. Both girls deserve empathy and the fandom should acknowledge that they were both groomed as children/teens by a westerosi celebrity but seeing Lyanna fans praise and defend her whilst hating Sansa for the same things, despite the fact that we have witnessed Sansa’s character development, is so frustrating and hypocritical. I would love to see them explain they view the characters stories so differently.

The only reasons I can think of is that they see Lyanna as part of their faves, She’s Jon’s mother and basically arya 1.0 in looks and personality and they consider Sansa to be “the enemy of their faves” or they romanticise lyanna (and maybe even her “relationship” with rhaegar) because she died young and they view her as martyr not a complex human being, the same way that people in the story (Ned, Robert etc) do whereas we are seeing Sansa’s story and flaws play out in the books and she’s still here she survived and survivors arent as easy to romanticise.

#sansa stark #lyanna stark #asoiaf #anti asoiaf fandom #sansa stark defense squad #disclaimer: i like lyanna and i dont blame her for what happened pre-asoiaf #i dont want anyone victim blaming either girl this post #asoiaf meta #long post

[thebluelemontree]

Is it wrong to say that Sansa uses an out of sight out of mind coping mechanism? I noticed it because it's what I do a lot. I know some ppl say she rewrites traumatic memories to make the memories bearable but it doesn't make sense. If that was how she coped, wouldn't she have been telling herself lies about Joffrey still in acok? Or found a way to erase/rewrite Marillion's attempt to rape her?

Yes and no. She does that except all the times she doesn’t. ;) I think that characterization is extremely reductionist (and ignores character complexity and  growth) when it’s applied that broadly to every situation Sansa has been in. You have to take these things instance by instance because they aren’t all the same. Sometimes that labeling doesn’t fit at all. In many cases, it feels more like the fandom pathologizing the act of romanticizing or trying to push aside or reframe something unpleasant or even traumatic when that’s just something most human beings do now and then. Some do it more than others, but its all within the realm of typical coping behavior and being older or more educated or more “logical” doesn’t make one immune to it. So I hope you don’t let those interpretations make you feel abnormal or more fallible for identifying with Sansa in that way. Romanticizing doesn’t even have to be about coping at all, but simply expressing desire through daydreams. People imagine being in idealized scenarios with crushes all the time.  

You also hit the nail on the head. Sansa just doesn’t go around making up false narratives about every objectively awful thing that happens to her. In fact, her actual responses to those moments can be a useful basis for comparison when we’re analyzing the unkiss, for example. Misunderstanding the unkiss is usually where a lot of these assumptions stem from. That’s a whole other can of worms in itself. The unkiss is just too long of a discussion to put here, so I just recommend this post as to the reasons why it isn’t about trauma and take a browse through my unkiss tag. It does bear repeating that Sansa factually remembers every scary thing that happened during the Blackwater and why it happened, indicating she has processed it honestly and critically, before any incarnation of the unkiss happens. The unkiss is a mismemory added on to the facts, which began as her being the actor that kissed him first. It’s not a lie to deny the facts or to excuse his behavior. It’s regrettable to her that Sandor was not able to be the person she could rely on to get her out of KL at that time. Nonetheless, this repressed desire is just so strong in her that it manifested in a kiss so real she could remember how it felt after the reality of his leaving KL for good sank in. 

Early AGOT Sansa tended to want to move past unpleasantness rather quickly. Just sweep those red flags under the rug so everything can go back to blissful harmony. Sansa is naturally averse to conflict and just wants her present with the royal family to be smooth sailing into a bright future. Ned had a very similar tendency when it came to concerns over Robert’s true character. He saw things that disturbed him, but he hoped and clung to his idea of Robert anyway. For Sansa, this resulted in some misplaced blame and rewriting events so she could deal with the aftermath. This is mostly seen in her processing the Mycah incident after Lady’s death and how her perception of all the characters involved shifted in varying ways. This is after she knew perfectly well what really happened, because Ned says Sansa had already told him the truth of what Joffrey did while Arya was still missing. However, it would also be unfair to completely chalk this up to Sansa’s idiosyncrasies. We have to put her flip-flopping in the context of the situation as well. She’s also experienced a gutting loss with Lady’s death and the fact that the first blow to her innocence was her father volunteering to put Lady down. She doesn’t have Catelyn to go to with her confusion and hurt, and Ned has largely been silent. She’s also still engaged to Joffrey through all this, this is still a patriarchy, there are political ramifications to speaking against a crown prince, and she doesn’t know how to deal with seeing such cruelty and vindictiveness in her future husband. Especially when he responded to her tender concern and wanting to help him with venom and hate. 

I mean, jeez, she’s 11. I don’t expect an 11 year old to understand how to identify the signs of emotional manipulation or see how this situation can escalate into domestic violence. Just because Sansa can’t articulate what is happening within her relationship with Joffrey, doesn’t mean she has blocked out any notion that Joffrey can turn his anger on her. Part of the reason she misplaces blame on Arya (and rewrites what happened) is because Joffrey turns scornful of Sansa for being a witness to his emasculating shame. He punishes her with the cold shoulder because she didn’t immediately take his side and pretended not to see instead. He regains power through making Sansa feel small and fearful of his moods. 

“He had not spoken a word to her since the awful thing had happened, and she had not dared to speak to him.” -- Sansa II, AGOT.

Sansa looked at him and trembled, afraid that he might ignore her or, worse, turn hateful again and send her weeping from the table. -- Sansa II, AGOT.

This is coming from someone who is supposed to love her and someone she will spend the rest of her life with. To fix things, she must be unequivocally on Joffrey’s side going forward or suffer the consequences, which we can see happening as her story completely flips over breakfast sometime later. This is not saying Sansa is fully exonerated from not supporting her sister when she needed her, but that it’s understandable how she arrived at this point. Even when things start to get really bad after Ned’s arrest, Sansa still holds out some hope that she can appeal to Joffrey’s (and Cersei’s) love for her to get him to be merciful. Is it really her fault she believed a part of Joffrey really loved her (and thus was reachable by her pleas) if he also heavily love bombed her and treated her like she was the most special girl in the world? Love bombing is a classic feature of the seduction phase leading up to abuse.  

So we can see Sansa does ignore truths and rewrite events sometimes and her personality is a factor; however, the context surrounding it matters a lot. Post Ned’s execution, Sansa does a full 180 regarding Joffrey and Cersei.

Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. "I hate you," she whispered. -- Sansa VI, AGOT.

Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again. -- Sansa I, ACOK. 

"A monster," she whispered, so tremulously she could scarcely hear her own voice. "Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher's boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He's evil and cruel, my lady, it's so. And the queen as well." -- Sansa I, ASOS. 

There’s also her conscious efforts to push away thoughts of her dead family and Jeyne Poole, but she states why she does that. It’s traumatic, the tears start flowing uncontrollably, and she is desperately trying to avoid falling into another suicidal depression. Her survival in KL depends on her holding it together and appearing loyal and obedient to Joffrey. Mourning her loved ones would imply to Joffrey she is plotting treason. Besides, she knows that even if she did ask Cersei or LF about Jeyne, she has no reason to believe they’d do anything but lie to her face in a patronizing way. There’s no point being plagued with wondering what the truth might be when she can’t do anything about it. Still, she prayed for Jeyne wherever she might be. She genuinely thought Arya had made it to WF on the ship and was safe at least until she got word of her brothers’ deaths and her home being sacked by the Iron Born, though there was initially a touch of projection and fantasizing about Arya being free while she remains captured. As of Feast, she believes she is the last Stark left alive and she has no one but Littlefinger to help her. So while she is suppressing her grief, it’s done with good reason, and it’s not being replaced with any false narratives to cope. 

We also cannot ignore that her relationship to Sandor Clegane has instilled in her an appreciation for the un-sugarcoated truth now that she has experienced betrayal and injustice first hand. In his own way, he’s encouraged her to listen to her own inner bullshit detector. The rose-tinted glasses have become a lot more clear compared to where she started. This is a newly learned skill though, and her self-confidence has been wrecked by internalized verbal abuse. She’s also been left on her own to figure out people’s intentions by herself, which runs parallel to her mounting desperation to get out of KL as Joffrey’s violence escalates. Developing a touch more of a jaded, skeptical side does sometimes clash with her enduring idealism and faith in other people (like with the Tyrells). This struggle is not a bad thing. The goal isn’t to become as cynical as the Hound, but to arrive at an earned optimism that has been tempered by wisdom and practical experience.

Her situation with Littlefinger is much more challenging than anything she faced in KL. He moves her where he wants her to go with complex web of lies, manipulation, grooming, isolation, coercion, dependence, guilt and shame. Her safety and desire to go home are tightly bound to being complicit in his lies and criminal activities. She feels indebted to him for getting her out of KL, even though his methods push her past her boundaries and force her to compromise her moral integrity. The thing is, there are things Sansa does know about LF, but she doesn’t seem to be ready to try and put the puzzle pieces together. She’s not daring to ask probing questions about Lysa’s reference to the “tears” and Jon Arryn or about the possible dangers of Maester Colemon prescribing sweetsleep for Robert’s convulsions. While the subject of Jeyne’s fate is still one she doesn’t want to revisit, somewhere in her mind she does know LF took custody of her friend. If it feels like this is somewhat of a regression back to her early AGOT self, there’s probably some truth to that; however, it’s perfectly okay for positive character arcs to be an imperfect progress. There can be relapses, regressions, setbacks, missteps, and misguided actions. All that growth isn’t lost. Everything she knows is just stored in the back of her mind, not forgotten completely. The general trend line moves her toward successfully confronting Littlefinger with the truth when GRRM is ready to pull the trigger. She’s definitely aware of Littlefinger lying to her more than she lets on and she knows his help is not out of the kindness of his heart, but motivated by what he wants her to be to him. But it’s not like she has the option to go anywhere else, does she? She’s a wanted criminal with a bounty on her head and has no other friend or ally in the Vale she can trust with the truth of her identity. Confronting LF without any means of neutralizing his power over her isn’t the smartest thing to do when he’s shown her he can literally get away with multiple murders. Again, it’s not just her personality that makes her hesitant to pull back the veil and face the horrible truth head on. The outside forces pressuring her perceptions and behavior cannot be discounted either.    

#valyrianscrolls #sansa stark meta #sansa stark #joffrey baratheon #sandor clegane #littlefinger #cersei #asoiaf characterization #the unkiss #character arcs #my meta #anonymous

[hellsbellschime]

I always hated how rhaegar and Robert behavior absolve​ by fandom and blame everything on their wives claiming Elia would be okay or was not sufficient and cersei was evil. Also lyanna is reduced to mere prize for both. Newsflash they both are shitty assholes and it had nothing to do with whom they married.

I would definitely agree, and I find it especially gross with Elia and Lyanna because so many fans are just projecting whatever weirdass fantasy they can come up with on characters that aren’t even really characters. With Cersei it’s gross enough because it blames her for her own abuse, but Lyanna and Elia are basically no one in the sense that we know absolutely nothing about them as individuals, and instead of applying basic common sense to their characters and understanding that no person would want to be a part of this absolute shitshow, people try to force them into a love story narrative that they logically cannot be a part of. Elia would not have been cool with her husband abandoning her and their children to the hands of a homicidal madman, and Lyanna wasn’t so epically in love with Rhaegar that she suddenly had no problem with adultery and was willing to let her entire family be violently murdered for the sake of their love. These are young women who had no control over their lives and had to deal with whatever some rich fuckboy deemed appropriate for them, and with the exception of Cersei they LITERALLY DIED in service of these fuckboy fantasies. To create some narrative around them being willing participants in the slaughter of their families and themselves because Rhaegar had some absolutely batshit delusions about being literal Jesus reborn is raggedy as hell. 

#asoiaf #Anonymous

[growingstronglikeahighgardenrose]

Thoughs on Mace Tyrell? I undertand that the show really cemented his image as a foolish lord, but I can't avoid to feel a little of cringe when someone claims that the Tyrells are a matriachal family and that Olenna easily manages his son like a puppet. In the books Olenna complaing that Mace is always "tut-tut" at her and the fact that he have managed to change so easily from a king to another without facing mayor consequences to his family makes me question how much of a oaf he's truly.

Hi, thanks for the question. To be honest, I don’t have a clear answer. I’ve thought about it many times.

TLDR; Olenna not liking Mace is a combination of family relationships and perhaps polital tactics. Mace is certainly not a puppet nor a complete fool. But he isn’t the smartest either, I’d say he is about average and certainly has some flaws.

Long text (sorry, if brevity’s the soul of wit, I don’t have it)

I believe it’s a good case of a pair of ego’s bumping against each other, the older generation looking down on the next, Olenna being unsatisfied that her child doesn’t exactly act as she would, and some truth.

Olenna sees herself as a very clever cunning woman, and she is, undoubtedly, but bookwise we have awfully little to stave that, we know little of what she has achieved. What we do know is that Olenna is very much involved in marriage politics, she claims to have boycotted a marriage to Daeron Targaryen, and was very involved in Margaery’s engagement with Joffrey both in conversations with Littlefinger and Sansa. And as many old women she loves to stick her nose in everything, especially since she feels she’s clever. So I do believe she tries to exercise as much influence as she can.

Secondly, an often used technique to get people to talk, is to start critiquing people. Once you start talking trash about somebody, people are quick to jump in. Olenna complaining about her family members might be a way to see who agrees, and is thus against her family. It’s Westeros, Randyll sent his own heir to the wall. Walder Frey plays with his heirs, the list goes on. Family backstabbing is a sport in Westeros as Mace’s got heirs to spare. Secondly, Littlefinger and Doran Martell both believe it can be beneficial to be perceived as weak and stupid. Perhaps she tries to get people to underestimate Mace.

I don’t think she’s the awesome pupeteer of house Tyrell, if she was, she wouldn’t be so annoyed with her son and husband. A pupeteer is someone who exercises control over someone. Olenna constantly complains about Mace and calls him dumb. Personally, when I call people dumb, nine times out of ten it is because I don’t agree with their decisions. Mace obviously has no problem ignoring his mother, otherwise she wouldn’t be as annoyed. Olenna might influence some decisions, but she has no full power over Mace.

Next as to whether Mace, who clearly makes his own decisions from time to time, is oafish. What do we actually know? He’s not the best military tactician. It’s been pointed out that the military succeses he did have, were because of Randyll Tarly, Kevan Lannister believes that with Tywin dead, no one is better suited to lead an army than Randyll. Not Mace, not Jaime, but Randyll. Randyll was also the real hero of the ONLY battle we know Mace took part in, and Mace totally stole the credit for the victory. That doesn’t make Mace an oaf, but he is at least arrogant and silly for claiming military victories and pretending he’s good at war. He also talks about his siege of Storm’s End as if it was a success. As if it was hard to be stationed there with good food supply and do nothing but make sure that no food got into Storm’s End. Now, I have seen on certain fora that it could have been a deliberate move by Mace. By dragging out the siege he didn’t kill lords of other houses (which would make post-war diplomacy for the Tyrells hard or could potentially result in revenge plots if the war turned out in the favour of Robert, and that was the case), nor could he be blamed of abandoning the Targaryens. Keeping the siege also meant he didn’t lose his men in war, didn’t lose face or was branded a coward. That could be, but it’s only a theory. And so far many young heirs went into the war, risking the futures of their entire houses. Mace already had three sons by that point (or 2 sons going 3, Loras was born during the first year of the rebellion), he had heirs to spare. I reason he’s at least a bit of a coward who wasn’t willing to get hurt, and was deliberately avoiding battle because he KNEW he wasn’t good at it. So +1 for his knowledge of self and avoiding situations that would have outed his weaknesses, but a great military mastermind? Nope.

Mace’s "Always side with the winning team” approach has kept the Reach safe from most harm in Westeros, and nobody’s going to complain when the harvests are good, food is plentiful, and no heirs are dying. We got an example of the potentially destabilizing power of a big lord losing their sons in the shape of Karstark. So his politics have kept the Reach at least stable, but was that deliberate? Or was it just a coincidence that him jumping ship benefitted the other lords? His one clear act of diplomacy within the Reach was his marriage. He married a Hightower, which is good internal Reach marriage politics, and the Hightowers are one of the oldest/the oldest Reach house. But personally, I believe his marriage was decided upon by his parents. Almost all marriages in Westeros are. It would also make Olenna the go-to marriage diplomat of House Tyrell. Which is very possible. During my diplomacy courses at uni I was taught that niche diplomacy is a great thing since it always you to maximize your influence and become a “go to” for certain matters.  It’s interesting to me that the Tyrells almost always marry within the Reach, and almost always to one of the houses that are supposed to hail from Garth Greenhand’s children. If all your high families are interwoven, it’s hard for them to take up arms against you. On the other hand, a need for intermarriage could also point towards a fear of the other noble houses in the Reach.

That’s it though, it’s clear Mace’s eyes are aimed at the “big politics”. He doesn’t care for Highgarden. The Western coasts have been attacked by Ironborn for months and what does he do? Nothing. The Shields are taken? Nothing. Also, given how stressed Loras is about needing to sail to the Shields, and rashly attacking Dragonstone, tells me that Mace didn’t leave enough troupes within the Reach so it could protect itself. Otherwise Loras wouldn’t be so desperate to go there with his men.

Alright, but now for his King’s Landing Politics: - A smart move was locking down the Rose Road, leading to riots and starvation in King’s Landing. A great move to apply pressure on the council, and he kept the pressure on until he had a sweet deal in regards to marrying Margaery to Joffrey. He might also have been involved in the poison-Joffrey plot and played the “shocked father” role perfectly.

- He doesn’t do anything as master of ships

- He does want more positions for the Reach but doesn’t get these in AFFC. he doesn’t “win” them either, he just manages to get them because Cersei screwed herself by letting the Faith arrest Margaery. Now that Mace is Hand of the King, Tarly justiciar and Redwyne Lord Admiral he has all positions he wants. But what has he decided? What did they do? What was their plan with those posts? It isn’t clear

- Mace was literally laying siege to Storm’s End and could have prevented Aegon from taking it (he was laying siege to Stannis’ men, but his army was big enough to potentially keep off Young Griff’s fleet. But the second he heard Margaery was arrested he just came to King’s Landing with full military force, not even leaving some troupes behind that could’ve kept up the siege against the few men Stannis had left behind. Now Stannis’ men could go and get rations so the siege was ruined, and  Griff managed to take it (or so we hear in the released WoW chapters). That’s just straight dumb-assery, he could have used his men wiser. And he wasn’t just laying siege for Cersei. From Storm’s End it’s just a march through Felwood and then up the Bluebell and down the river to Highgarden. It didn’t even do anything, by the time he got there Randyll had arranged Margaery’s release already. And what was he going to do? Lay siege to KL? Really? Good luck boy, to succesfully take KL you need ships, and the Redwyne ships aren’t anywhere near him.

- It is known the Iron Throne has huge debts and still he wants his cousin Garth The Gross as Lord Treasurer. As father of the queen, and as hand, he was already expected to cough up money and invest in the throne. Because if the throne goes bankrupt, and the throne has to start demanding huge soms of all lords and smallfolk in winter... shit isn’t going to be pretty. It was already going to be bad. But to have the main responsible for the money be your own family as well? The Tyrells are doing good but that’s a ticket to bankrupcy. He wants power so bad it’s going to screw him over.

- Winter is coming and he isn’t worried at all (and that’s a thing I blame every player of the game of thrones for).

So all by all Mace isn’t blatantly stupid. He can be diplomatic and courtly, and knows the game of “give and take” politics better than say Stannis or Ned. He can also lie easily (about his victories, about being afraid that his daughter could have gotten poisoned... That is if we rule out that Mace is so full of himself he legitly believed the victory was his and was involved in the purple wedding poisoning). He also knows how to do image control, he’s called the fat flower by his mother and is despised and mistrusted by Cersei but given that he has no real military victories and has done nothing but switch sides for over twenty years, his reputation could be so much worse, yet it isn’t.

But he is at least a bit negligent of the Reach, is power hungry, doesn’t think long term, weak military skills, can’t think clearly in times of crisis (like Margaery’s arrest) and his moves are just plain predictable at this point.

I’d also say much of his "wins” relied on luck: Margaery becoming queen was partially up to luck and circumstance. If Ned had been succesful in telling Robert about the twincest, then Margaery could have become Robert’s queen. But although everyone in KL knew, no one was doing anything to help Ned, including the Tyrells. So Marg wouldn’t have simply become queen, the Tyrells weren’t working towards it. It was only after Robert died that Margaery marry Renly (queenmaker plan 2), then broker a deal with the Lannisters (attempt 3) , so on. Mace had four adult children, and only one of them married. Why didn’t he marry them to influential houses? Or at least promise them? How old were they supposed to get before he would start marrying them? Mace wanted more Reach men on the small council. When Cersei refused and replaced him on the council he only complained. Complaining isn’t scheming. It was only because Cersei screwed herself by arresting Margaery that she was stripped of her position of power and Mace and his friends gained their positions. Because contrary to Cersei, Kevan is a sane person who knows the Lannisters must treasure the allies they have.

Of course, we could still learn a lot more about the Tyrells. We might learn a lot more in the upcoming (hopefully) books. I could be very wrong :)

#asoiaf #tyrells #highgarden #mace tyrell #the fat flower #affc #adwd #game of thrones

[leialannister]

Why C+B=R doesn’t work...

*rubs hands*

This is going to be fun…

I’ll start with busting the evidences that the theorist gave to make their theory believable (I’m not trying to mock them here btw don’t get me wrong) and continue with other factors why they simply do not work.

1)Follies done for love.

So the first thing the theorist talks about is Catelyn’s Tully morals and stuff, then they give Catelyn’s thoughts when she learns of Robb and Jeyne’s marriage as one of the evidences.

Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him.

-A Storm of Swords, Catelyn II.

They claim that the “follies done for love” is actually about Robb’s parentage.

“Brandon knew how to take what he wanted. Seems like he begged some,

(We will wed on my return he vowed) and she agreed,

hence the follies done for love.”

This could have been a good comment of the paragraph if we didn’t have a much better and realistic cause for her thoughts which is Jaime. Catelyn freed Jaime to get back her daughters, the daughters she loved fiercely, and she believes they are under Cersei’s claws, who she also blames for her husband’s death, and I don’t think I have to talk about the love Catelyn bears to Ned, for I never shut up about it. (Mind that Catelyn was unaware that Arya had escaped from the capital when she freed Jaime.) So no, passing off Brandon’s bastard as Ned’s isn’t the follies done for love, but freeing Jaime Lannister.

2)I did so gladly.

Here, the other evidence is that she marries Ned gladly and in a haste, because she’ll pass the child as his own, and she shouldn’t be far along or showing by the time they marry.

“When Brandon died shortly before they were to wed, Catelyn now having realized she is pregnant does not want her baby to grow up a bastard, so when told she must marry Ned in a haste, she does so gladly, planning to tell him that the child is his own.”

The problem here is how they interpret the word “gladly”.

Highborns rarely have the chance to choose whom they marry, especially if they are a woman and it’s their lord father who had arranged the marriage for them. (The Queen of Thorns, we all know she’s just another level.) Keep in mind that Catelyn is the favored child of Tully, (I love the Tullys but sorry Hoster that’s bad parenting 101) she is probably even more loved than Edmure, the heir to the Riverlands, and being his precious child, he wants Catelyn to be happy, for she deserves the world (FACTS!). But the man is also ambitious as fuck, she wants both daughters to be the wifes of high lords, and mother high lordlings. This is a great chance at hand, probably that comes very rarely too, considering the heir to the North has always had a Northern marriage. But Catelyn, being the dutiful daughter she is (Family, Duty, Honor) answers the way it would please her lord father.

And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.

-A Clash of Kings, Catelyn IV.

And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

-A Clash of Kings, Catelyn IV.

She marries off Ned “gladly” because she has always done her duty, not because she wants to pass Brandon’s bastard as Ned’s.

3)Jon Snow…

“Another issue is the way that Catelyn treats Jon. Jealousy is understandable, but it's very uncommon for a woman and a mother, with maternal instincts, to treat a small child so badly.”

The whole Jon Snow/Catelyn relationship is severely misunderstood, and I think that is why this is mentioned in the theory.

The thing is… Catelyn rarely even treats Jon. She simply ignores him to at least make his presence bearable. Jealousy comes a long while after Jon is born and brought to Winterfell, and that never makes a change to Catelyn’s behaviour.

She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him.

-A Game of Thrones, Catelyn II.

Her problem is not Ned banging another woman in wartime, it’s that this child is in her home, where her trueborn children lives. He lives pretty much in the same luxuries with her own children. This might be bold of me, but there is no other ACKNOWLEDGED (The Baratheon (!) children are out) bastard in the Seven Kingdoms who lives in much luxury under such conditions (like Ned lacking a true born heir, etc.). As their marriage and relationship progresses, my parents (Ned & Cat) fall in love and this is where you can assume the jealousy comes in. She loves Ned dearly, fiercely, and it not only breaks her heart but makes herself feel as if she’s not enough to see that Jon remains in Winterfell, no matter how many sons she had bore him. Aye, she is aware that Ned is bestotted with her, but just like everyone, she has her dark moments where she wonders if she could never fill the hole that the bastard’s mother had left behind (Let’s not forget to mention that she doesn’t even know if she had ever left his heart at all). Despite being a fictional character, Catelyn is still human, and no one can ever blame her for being a human. That is what makes her a greatly rounded and complex character in the first place.

It is also confirmed by George R. R. Martin that Catelyn has never abused or mistreated Jon in any way, other than the time she snapped at him when Jon came to bid Bran farewell.

“Mistreatment” is a loaded word. did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran’s bedroom was obviously a very special case.) But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king’s visit were at issue. And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

-George R. R. Martin.

“Keep in mind that the only way a bastard can threaten a trueborn 1st son is if the trueborn son is actually a bastard.”

Umm, no? The kid is a danger to all, especially if something were to happen to Robb. After all, Catelyn’s other children are also a part of the line of succession after Robb.

“In the show Catelyn says:
“All this horror that's come to our family,
It's all because I couldn't love a motherless child”.”

I think I have talked enough about how this scene totally ruins Catelyn’s character, and my opinions on this matter can be understood pretty clearly from the explanation I made about Catelyn and Jon’s relationship. The show is full of bullshit, and this is just one of them. (see my twitter account for this)

4)EvEn CeRsEi?!

“When Catelyn discovers Cersei's children are bastards who are not Robert's, she thinks:

"Would even Cersei be so mad? Catelyn was speechless."

Why EVEN Cersei? Why not simply say Cersei?

She can't believe another woman did the same thing she did, which is to let her husband raise another man's child, as his own.”

LMAO, she is talking about the freaking Targaryens!!! Cersei is literally the queen of the man who dethroned the mad incest supporters and she finds out that his wife is doing the same exact thing! Don’t you guys think it’s ironic? Well, I wonder what makes Catelyn so shocked...

(Oh and by the way, Cersei, baby you were so right..)

5)16,20,50 & Some Height Issues

“This is what Catelyn thinks about Robb:
“Let him grow taller, she asked the gods. Let him know sixteen, and twenty, and fifty. Let him grow as tall as his father, and hold his own son in his arms. ”

So let’s ask ourselves Why these numbers?
Does Catelyn just pick them out at random or is there meaning behind them?
They certainly don’t seem to apply to Ned and yet they fit perfectly when applied to Brandon Stark

-Brandon was 16 when he met Catelyn and they fell in “love”
-And was 20 when he died.
-Although Rickard Starks exact age is unknown,
I believe this is who Catelyn is thinking of when she says 50, Robbs Grandfather who died with Brandon.

So here we have Catelyn's thinking of Robb's life:
may he live to meet a girl and fall in love,
may he not die at 20 like his father
or die at 50 like his grandfather.
may he hold his own son in his arms, something Brandon was never able to do.”

This is one of the most well-thought evidences, but it’s wrong nonetheless.

Brandon Stark was born in 262 AC, and Catelyn was born in either 264 or 265 AC, we do not know the exact year.

So yes, he died at 20, but Catelyn was 12 when her father promised him to Brandon. That makes Brandon 14 or 15 when they met and “fell in love”.

Oh and the mention of “tall”:

““ Catelyn watched a breeze stir his auburn hair, so like her own, and wondered when her son had grown so big.

Fifteen , and near as tall as she was. ... Let him grow as tall as his father"

Catelyn specifically noted how disappointed she was with Ned's height, compared to Brandon who was tall.

So how DID Robb get so tall if Ned is short?

And if Ned is so short, who does she mean when wanting Robb to grow, as tall as him?

Again this sounds like Brandon to us.”

Brandon being taller than Ned doesn’t mean Ned is short. Considering the average height for men is 5’9 today, someone who is 6’3 is tall. A man who is 6’1 is tall as well, but shorter than other. This is the same case. Ned is never mentioned to be short, he is just shorter than Brandon, who is mentioned to be tall.

5.1)Fall in love

Oh, and just fyi, Catelyn was never in love with Brandon. Yes she might have liked or even loved the idea of him and their live together, but never really loved him.

6)When possessive pronouns confuse the f out of you

“"She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son.”

so Why say HER son?

This is how the sentence should have been like,

Given the premise that Ned is Robb's father:

"not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. His son.”

Or:

"not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Their son.””

So ok, I’ll admit that this is the best one by far. There’s nothing I can say to deny them, though Catelyn does mention the children as “our” and as Ned’s son as well. And while might imply, it does not give the theory %100 accuracy.

7)Nine moons

Catelyn thinking about Robb:

““Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well.

“I shall not be long, my lady,” he had vowed.

“We will be wed on my return.”

"Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept. Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son.

Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south.

Nine moons since when? This paragraph started with Brandon, not with Ned.”

Nine moons since ‘Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips.’ I think this was pretty clear but okay. Considering the huge hate towards Catelyn, I’ve come to a conclusion that Martin’s works are very open for misinterpretation.

8)A son

““he had given her a son.” He did give her a son, instead of a bastard.

By marrying Catelyn,
Ned has effectively turned her Bastard into a son.”

I think this would have been again one of the best well thought, if Catelyn mentioned more than words to Brandon as well. She basically said that Brandon just left her with words while Ned gave her more. If Brandon gave her bastard, she wouldn’t have just said “words”. Yes, she might not have mentioned it as “a son” but there would be more than that.

9)Lord Dustin is Actually GRRM in a nutshell

““On Catelyn’s own wedding night ...

When Lord Dustin had beheld her naked, he’d told Ned that her breasts were enough to make him wish he’d never been weaned”

Breasts are the very first to expose a pregnancy, way before the belly shows.

Why would GRRM make the effort to give us this little tidbit of information about how her breasts reminded men of nursing?”

I think this is just a way of GRRM describing his type. Quoting grrmartin from Tumblr:

“Catelyn’s descriptions make her seem like the most attractive woman in Westeros. And people comment on her beauty frequently. Unlike Dany or Cersei, people do not fear or need to compliment Cat in the same way. GRRM, the author, married 2 redheads. He clearly has a type. And based on your logic on what makes somebody the most beautiful, LF started the War of the Five Kings because he loved the beautiful Catelyn Stark, even after over a decade of not seeing her.”

see the original post here

GRRM’s like of hot women is known, and “hot women” by classic standards are big breasts, a slim waist and wide hips. They are big guys. Ned Stark is a lucky man. Don’t overread. Not to mention that Catelyn tells herself that she’s given her maidenhood to Ned. Yes, maidenhood does mean an unwed woman, but it is also the synonym of “maidenhood”.

9)First time

This is, again, a controversial remark, I personally believe that it’s her instinct. She felt it. Though, the way it could work is very simple.

Her moon blood might have been early due to stress or coming after a few days they wed anyway. This was a time of war and they didn’t wait till women were most “available”.

10)Timeline…

Ok so I was going to continue with the other stuff that the theorist had mentioned but this is getting too long and I’m getting bored. So let’s bust this theory with the simplest thing: Timeline!!!

“Age: Brandon died in 282AL , Rob was born in 283AL. Time wise, it's plausible.”

“they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south”

This way, because she gave birth at Riverrun without Ned, Ned would not know exactly how long after he left Robb was born.

Robert's Rebellion timeline is speculative, at best.

This is how I think it went, in chronological order:

1. Catelyn and Brandon Conceived Robb at Riverrun.

2.Brandon left for KL, and died.

3.Ned married Catelyn BEFORE calling his banners, to make sure he has the Riverland's support. Riding all the way North from the Vale, only to go all the way back in times of war seems unlikely. Ned probably sent someone in his name to call his banners, while he went to wed Catelyn. This would place their marriage likely far less than 3 months after Brandon left Riverrun, probably around 6-8 weeks after Robb's conecption.

4.Ned goes to war.

5.Jon is born.

6.Robb is born.

Brandon dies In the early-mid of 282 AC (With the words arriving, Rickard coming to Kl) since Lyanna’s abduction happens early in the year. Then Aerys demands Ned and Robert’s heads so Jon Arryn calls the banners and Ned returns to the North and Robert leaves for Stormlands to call the banners. Then, The Battles of Summerhall happens, followed by Robert’s defeat in the Battle of Ashford. Having retreated to the Riverlands, The Siege of Storm’s End starts and we know that the defenders were already in bad shape “by year’s end.” Ned and Catelyn marry after the Battle of the Bells, since it is a double wedding and we know that Jon Arryn loses gallant cousin and heir, Ser Denys Arryn, so he needs a young wife to produce an heir. This means that Catelyn and Ned married in the early 283 AC.

If Brandon had impregnated Catelyn, she would have been heavy with child by the time they married, and Robb would have been big enough to know he’s not Ned’s by the time he meets Robb. I think this is the biggest evidence that this theory simply does not work.

11)Significance of Parentage

Robb getting in the list of the secret parentage reduces the significance of parentage. There are way more believable parentage theories (and canon ones like the Baratheon (!) children) out there that concerns other families, and they have much more evidence other than the crumbs here. Everyone being a secret bastard takes the excitement of the better ones like R+L=J or A+J=CJ (love this one, don’t think it’s true but love it anyways).

In conclusion, even if I’m wrong, and Robb is actually Catelyn’s son (though I know Catelyn to be better than that, there’s a reason why I stan her) it makes literally no impact to the storyline. Robb is dead, Ned is dead, Brandon is long dead, Catelyn is dead, at least the part of her that made her Catelyn is. How other people will be aware of this is a dilemma as well. There has to be a good reason for Bran to look from the eyes of the Godswood of Riverrun. The only way this can have an importance is Jeyne being pregnant, (The chances are quite low on this one.) though not much would come of it anyway.

#catelyn stark #ned stark #ned x cat #catelyn tully #catelynstark #robb stark #brandon stark #brandon x catelyn #tbh c+b=r is pure bs but i tried my best to remain respectful #catelyn is baby and people think she's a heartless cold bitch #honour people... #cat has it you know

[janiedean]

Chapters: 1/1 Fandom: A Song of Ice and Fire - George R. R. Martin, Game of Thrones (TV) Rating: Teen And Up Audiences Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings, No Archive Warnings Apply Relationships: Sandor Clegane/Sansa Stark, Theon Greyjoy/Robb Stark, Robb Stark & Sansa Stark Characters: Sansa Stark, Sandor Clegane, Robb Stark, Jeyne Poole, Theon Greyjoy, Ned Stark, Catelyn Tully Stark, Arya Stark, Joffrey Baratheon, Robert Baratheon, Cersei Lannister Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Canon, Soulmates, Alternate Universe - Soulmates, Hearts, Quite Literally, I Blame Tumblr, Spitefic, Minor Jaime Lannister/Brienne of Tarth, (mentioned in passing but somewhat importantish), pre-jon/ygritte/sam/gilly/tormund that will happen someday, Sandor Clegane Needs a Hug, Scars, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Tooth-Rotting Fluff, Singing, sansa stark wants her love story and she damn well will get it, Robb Stark is a Gift, Robb Ships It, True Love's Kiss, THAT KIND OF FITS OKAY LET SANSA HAVE IT Series: Part 3 of hearts fic thing series Summary: “Oh,” Father says, “whatever happened to him, the gods wouldn’t let you have someone unworthy of you. I’m sure he’s brave and strong and gentle. The kind of knight you would deserve.”

He kisses her hair and Sansa smiles at it, but when he’s gone she stands up and puts her hands on both sides of that heart again. It’s warm. The dead side stays as dead as before, red and dark and with sealed cracks all over.

“Where are you?” She asks, not getting a reply.

Gods, she doesn’t know what happened to him to cause this, but — but she wants to know where he is so much, because she’s sure that she could do something more if only she knew —

That’s no matter, though. If there is something she’s sure of, is that it feels right for her. It feels right when she touches it, it feels right when she holds it to her chest, it feels right when it beats faster, and it feels right when it becomes a bit brighter every time she sings to it.

He is somewhere. One day, he’ll find her, or she’ll find him.

Or: in which the heart Sansa gets is in fairly bad shape, but that never stopped a good love story, after all.

--

or: have the heart fic thing part three guys, idek.

#sansan #sandor clegane #sansa stark #throbb #robb stark #otp: one day I will have a song from you #a song of ice and fire #ch: sansa stark #ch: sandor clegane #my fic #ch: robb stark

[sapphires-and-gold-fics]

Forget Me, Not

Chapter 13

What Eliza Blackwood had asserted to be true Brienne could not, dared no longer doubt; supported as it was on every side by such probabilities and proofs, and contradicted by nothing but her own wishes. She could have applied to Lord Arryn for confirmation, but she would not have Eliza think her false in her promised confidence. The desperate woman had murdered a man - evil as he was - and in doing so had put Jaime deeply in her debt. Had not the sum of his responsibilities as godfather to the fairer woman’s daughter dedicated him already to their interests, this would have done so.

That this dedication must remain so secret in some ways must surely have weighed on him, explaining in part what had come to pass in the course of her acquaintance with him. Jaime’s melancholy state of mind, his dissatisfaction at his own prospects, his uncertain behavior to herself, the intimate knowledge of Mrs. Blackwood as to Winterfell and their family connections, the letter, the ring, the book, it formed altogether such a body of evidence, as overcame every fear of her understanding him unfairly.

Her resentment of what she perceived to be his ill treatment of her, for a short time made her feel only for herself; but other ideas, other considerations, soon arose. Had Jaime intentionally deceived her by showing feelings which he then committed in writing to another? Had he been stirred to challenge the deceased for some motive other than justice, and then to take the blame out of some drive other than honor? Was he now encouraged by the other woman’s charms? Was his connection to her one of the heart?

No, whatever his attachment to Eliza had once been once, Brienne could not believe it such at present. His affection was all her own. Her mother, sisters, Cersei, all had been conscious of his regard for her at Winterfell; it was not an illusion of her own vanity. And the book - only he could have bestowed the blossoms there, and their placement seemed now to signify his guilt in showing her more attention than he had a right to, his promise already apparently settled with another. No other motive she could conceive matched with his actions toward her.

She believed his feelings, if not his intentions, to have been true, no matter what hopes or promises Eliza might have in her connection with him. And if he had injured her in feeling without intent, how much more had he injured himself? If her case were pitiable, his was hopeless. She might in time regain tranquility; but he, what had he to look forward to? Could he be tolerably happy with Eliza and her daughter, living out their lives in secret and amongst false cousins, knowing that he felt so for another?

Surely this matter of Mrs. Blackwood's husband had been at the center of Lord Lannister’s urgings. Surely he wished for Jaime to embrace his fame and make some equally extravagant match of it, and keep the Lannister name in relevance. Surely this was why Jaime had been so reluctant to accept the living - no matter his brother’s feelings - he did not want ownership of it if it left Eliza and Dinah in the Vale.

As these considerations occurred to her in painful succession, she sought out her shirt and breeches and took her practice with a dummy, the heavy thwacks of her practice sword beating away, in the cold sunrise, her inclination to weep.

The necessity of concealing from Sansa and her mother what had been entrusted in confidence to herself, though it obliged her to unceasing exertion, was no aggravation of Brienne’s distress. On the contrary, it was a relief to be spared the communication of that which might give such affliction to them, and to be likewise saved from hearing any condemnation from them of the man whose honor likely exceeded any of their understanding, and which would be more than she felt equal to support. Their conversation would render her no assistance; their tenderness and sorrow would only feed her distress and her uncertainty.

As it was, much as she had suffered from her first conversation with Eliza on the subject, she still wanted to hear more particulars of their understanding and wanted to more clearly assess what the one really felt for the other, and whether Eliza had any particular regard for him which might then reflect either on Jaime’s further guilt, or provoke all the more sympathy for him.

The Arryns had extended their stay a few days, and one evening, while the rest of the group had seated themselves to cards, Brienne took the opportunity to join Mrs. Blackwood at her task of weaving a small basket for little Dinah to use at their picnic the following day. In a firm, though naturally cautious tone, Brienne entreated Eliza to raise the subject of “their friend” once more.

“I am very glad to hear you speak of him, Miss Tarth. The terms of our livelihood are so delicate and I am afraid Lady Arryn does not make for a very sympathetic conversationalist.”

“Indeed,” began Brienne, “I can easily believe that it was a great relief to you, to acknowledge your situation to me, and be assured that you shall never have reason to repent it.”

“I could never repent having you as my friend, Brienne. Jaime assured me as much.”

The sound of his name at the other woman’s lips stirred the fog of Brienne’s jealousy, but she would see a path through it. “Mr. Lannister, it seems, is suffering his own misfortunes.”

“Oh!” said the widow with surprise, “Have you had word from him?”

“I?" Brienne startled, unsure whether to take the woman's words as earnest or jealous, "No, I - you received word of him at Winterfell and showed me the letter.”

“Oh, but that came to us when we were still in town, a week ago or more. I thought perhaps he would have written to you since.”

“Mr. Lannister has never written here.” Brienne’s confused pride kept her from saying to me. “When do you expect to see him next?”

“Oh, I never know. I think you know he is at odds with most of his family now… things being as they are. I think we - he will be adrift until he is able to reconcile things between his father and brother.”

It may have been a trick of the light, but Brienne would swear that the woman had colored slightly before turning back to her occupation. “And do you believe he will succeed in that?”

Eliza set her work down and turned to face Brienne fully. “I feel that he must, Miss Tarth. The feelings of too many have felt the strain in that family; our bonds have stood the trials so well that it would be unpardonable to doubt it now. I can safely say that Jaime has never given me a moment’s alarm on that account from the first. He is steadfast and determined, and I think he will prevail.”

Brienne hardly knew whether to smile or sigh at this assertion.

“And what do you think will be the resolution, then?”

“So long as we are able to go on and be happy, any outcome of that is welcome. Whether the favor lies with either brother, we will manage. Jaime wants for so little - a parcel of land and a meager living would make any natural soul happy, but do you not believe it would cheer Jaime most of all?”

“I shall hope that all involved may get what happiness they deserve when all is said and done.”

“Indeed, Brienne,” she said, taking up their hands together, “I believe that love will win out. I truly believe that we will all be happy when all is said and done.”

Brienne only wished that their eyes toward happiness did not overlap so cruelly.

#brienne x jaime #jaime x brienne #sense and sensibility #jane austen #braime #braime au #austen au #regency au #forget me not #got au #game of thrones #ao3 #ao3 link #mine #ficlet into fiction #put me back together #fictober transfer