#Chloé bourgeois salt

[purplezombietumbler]

~Miraculous Season 5 spoilers~

Also if you are a Chloé Bourgeois & Gabriel Agreste defender, ✨️DNI✨️

Imma say this once, AND ONLY ONCE!

I don't care if you like a character. I have no problem, but it grides my gears when people are like "bUt tHeIr tRaMaTiC PaSt!" To excuse their behavior. In the words of Rocket: "Everybody's got dead people! But it makes no excuse to letting everyone else around get killed along the way!"

Just because your wife died or your mom is abusive doesn't mean you get to be a domestic teřřoríst or a dictator!

#random rant #rant post #miraculous season 5 #chloé bourgeois #Chloé Bourgeois salt #gabriel agreste #Gabriel Agreste salt #trauma #I hate queen bee with all my heart

[nothingtherefornow]

Something about Chloe and Lila defenders that makes me roll my eyes.

The fact that they say, BUT THEYRE JUST BULLIES GABRIEL IS A TERRORIST!!”

Like UM THEY ARE BOTH ACTIVELY HELPING HIM! That makes them terrorists as well, or is it suddenly okay because “lul teenage gurls”

I can't wait for those Chloé and Lila defenders to have seen of all season 5, because ... SPOILER WARNING :

Chloé and Lila will both commit heavy criminal actions during this season 5, worse than what bullies usually do (and the worst a bully can do can eventually already fit in a criminal record, like for example, almost killing a classmate/schoolmate with a "prank")

And just like you said, Chloé and Lila both activelly and willingly helped Monarch before, and they're gonna do it again during the episodes 20 and 23.

And how can those Chloé and Lila apologists even defend the girls "I want to hurt Marinette Dupain-Cheng and make her miserable" obsession ? This is nonsense

#miraculous ladybug #ml season 5 spoilers #chloé bourgeois salt #lila rossi salt #Those girls may not have done worst that Monarch yet #But they definitly would commit crimes similar to him if they had more power #What I'm saying #And Chloé will actively become her willing associate when that happens

[geekgirles]

Liar Revealed

So Marinette and Sabrina worked together to lure Lila into a false sense of security that eventually led up to her spilling everything in front of an audience she was unaware of. Now everyone knows she’s been lying about everything, she’s a horrible person, and she and Chloé are about to be expelled for good... After 7 years, the fandom finally got what it wanted.

...then why do I feel like I’ve actually wasted those 7 years of my life? 

Buckle up, ‘cause this is going to be a long ride.

As someone who’s been eagerly awaiting for Lila to be exposed since Volpina, a feeling that only grew with each passing episode she’s been featured in, I honestly find this development wholly underwhelming, highly disappointing, even. 

Maybe I’m too vindictive, who knows, but this in no way feels like proper comeuppance for a character who’s been maliciously manipulating everyone around her and relishing in other people’s misery since she was first introduced.

First and foremost, because having Lila accidentally reveal herself while gloating is too much of a cliché. I’ve seen people before mentioning how Lila exposing herself seemed to be the only way this could go, seeing as Marinette’s best attempts always seemed to fail. But if we ignore for a second this was actually set up by Marinette and Sabrina, with the way it’s handled it just feels like a kick in the gut, not the overwhelming catharsis I’m sure most of us were expecting. 

Because, and this is actually my main problem with the execution, by having Lila expose herself by spouting a self-satisfied tirade of every single lie she’s ever told and people have believed without question as she disparages Sabrina’s attempts to take her down, saying how she could easily turn everyone against her, the narrative is actually framing Lila in the right.

When we as the audience know it shouldn’t be like that. 

Lila only really upped her game in season 5 (and even then the writers still rely too much on the characters being dumbed down around her for it to work), up until then all her lies would have been easily discreditable if the writers didn’t need the class and everyone in Paris to believe her for her schemes to work!

From our perspective, Lila is nowhere near as formidable as she presents herself to be. Which, admittedly, goes in line with her consistent characterisation (about her only consistent trait aside from being hateful and a liar) that she believes and presents herself to be more special than she actually is. But the problem is no character other than Marinette, Adrien, and now Sabrina ever learnt of this fact! Maybe now that she’s exposed herself, but with the way she gloated about all her plans going off without a hitch...

Which leads us to another reason this was the worst possible execution of Lila being exposed they could have come up with:

It was a stroke of luck.

That’s it. That’s unquestionably what it was. Because hadn’t Sabrina finally grown a spine and drawn the line with the actions she was willing to commit for Chloé’s sake, Marinette would have had no way of knowing of Lila’s plan and preparing accordingly. 

Really, the only positive thing I can say about it is that it could maybe count as character development for Marinette since she finally learned she needed to be as sneaky as Lila if she wanted to take her down. And there’s of course the fact that Sabrina finally broke away from Chloé. Other than that? It’s a fairly sombre scenario, really. 

Because, again, Marinette didn’t manage to finally beat Lila because she had a strong support network (which would have painted a very symbolic and meaningful picture showcasing how, for all the superficial attention her lies can get her, in reality, Lila will always be alone as long as she doesn’t put in the genuine effort to reach out to others like Marinette does), but because she had outside help. Again, help she couldn’t have accounted for until Sabrina herself reached out to her. 

Relating to my previous point, Marinette never got Alya to even believe her about Lila or at the very least question how genuine she was until Lila spelled it out for her. Even though she’s known her best friend is Ladybug for months, which brings forth the question if letting Alya in on Marinette’s secret ended up being even worth it if the writers refuse to have her help her out where it matters (I’ll be sure to go back to this point in a minute, just you wait). 

What else? Oh, I know! How about the fact that, for a season that was supposed to be all about Adrienette winning, the writers purposely robbed us of that Adrienette vs Lila alliance we were promised back in Chameleon, huh? Because Adrien was completely left out of the plan. In fact, ever since Ladybug back in season 3, he hasn’t been allowed to do anything to help Marinette against Lila. As with the Ladynoir conflict in season 4, his relevance all but vanished even though he was a central part of the conflict from seasons 1-3. 

Even better! When he finally spoke up about Lila to Nino and Alya, arguably his best friends besides Ladybug, they completely brushed his concerns off as him just agreeing with Marinette out of boyfriend obligation! I didn’t know intangible things could slap me in the face, but boy was I wrong!

And the best part? This complete disregard of his feelings, lack of communication, and their assuming they know better than him (which disturbingly parallels to his own relationship with Gabriel...) is certainly never going to be explored, let alone resolved. 

What do I mean with all this?

Well, basically that for a show that’s supposed to promote the power of love, friendship, and teamwork, when it comes to Lila Marinette is all alone. Has been since Volpina. 

But at least that’s done with, Lila got her just desserts, and we’re never going to have to deal with her ever again...

SIGH

Except, not really. Not at all, in fact. 

Because just as she and Chloé were finally being reprimanded for their actions, Mr. Damocles had to choose that of all moments to realise he failed as a principal, attract an akuma, cause a racket, and provide Lila with the perfect distraction to just...walk away unscathed. 

And with the reveal that she actually has more identities, social circles, and opportunities to lie and manipulate to fall back to after being expelled from the Françoise-Dupont...Let’s just say it implies that while Marinette (and the audience) had to endure nothing short of psychological torture, Lila never really had anything to lose.

Now I ask you...how the Hell am I supposed to consider that a satisfying, cathartic resolution to that particular arc?!?!?!?

And if you permit me, there is one more thing I’d like to get off my chest. 

Alya’s reaction to this.

After learning the truth she rushes to hug Marinette and apologise, being a clear wreck about it. And while Marinette getting an apology once in a blue moon is always a welcomed thing, once again the writers aim and completely miss their shot. Because Alya apologises for being gullible. 

Look, back in seasons 1 and 2, Hell, even back in season 3, I could have overlooked this. Yes, she never listened to Marinette, could be a tad hypocritical, and the whole jealous thing got old and annoying fast, but at least she couldn’t know for certain Lila was bad news. But from season 4 onwards Alya no longer has such an excuse. No, from season 4 onwards Alya’s problem isn’t that she’s gullible, it’s that she willingly and repeatedly chose to blatantly ignore all of Marinette’s suspicions and warnings regarding Lila. Even after Adrienette finally became canon and Marinette had realistically no reason to feel jealous of Lila in any way, shape or form, Alya still couldn’t fathom that, perhaps, her best friend had her reasons for disliking Lila besides a love triangle. 

The moment Alya learned Marinette is Ladybug, the two should have been allowed to talk about Lila, about the real reason Marinette hates her, and to work together to overcome this issue and bring her down. How do you expect me to be okay with season 5 opening to these two having daily sleepovers to talk about Marinette’s love life, but not a single second could be spared after Illusion to have Alya question why Marinette hates her so much, if not connect the dots herself since she is Ladybug’s best friend, not Lila, and Ladybug hates her?

I’ve seen people justify this saying it’s been a long time since Lila lied about being Ladybug’s best friend, and while I’ll argue the last time it was mentioned was actually Chameleon, not Volpina, I could see your point. Except that is not just another lie, like her claiming she knows Jagged Stone or Prince Ali. No, that is the lie that started everything.

It was because Lila lied about knowing Ladybug to impress everyone, especially Adrien, that Marinette completely lost it and chewed her out for it in front of him. It’s because of that lie and the consequent reaction it got from Ladybug that Lila even developed a grudge in the first place. It’s because of that lie that Marinette ever found out about Lila being a liar, because before she first lied to Adrien about being close to Ladybug, Marinette was panicking because she had no chance against someone as incredible as her. If she hadn’t lied about knowing Ladybug, Marinette would have been as fooled by her as everyone else and the two might have never really come to blows.

So don’t tell me it was never brought up because it was so long ago and it doesn’t matter anymore, when that particular lie carries so much weight and we all know the real reason they couldn’t have Alya in Marinette’s corner is because the writers know Lila needs everyone around her to follow her blindly for her lies to work and everything to always work out in her favour because otherwise she just doesn’t work as a villain.

TL;DR: If you want a good resolution to the Lila Gets Exposed plot, pick literally any fanfic dealing with this exact premise. It’ll be better, I promise.

#miraculous ladybug #ml #mlb #ml spoilers #ml season 5 #ml season 5 spoilers #ml s5.21 #confrontation #ml salt #ml analysis #Marinette Dupain-Cheng #sabrina raincomprix #adrien agreste #lila salt #alya salt #lila rossi #alya césaire #chloé bourgeois

[camelots-rose]

The fact Gabriel a child abuser, that took part in a murder(Shanghai special), almost murdered an entire family small children included(Senti bubbler), threatened to start World War 3 (new york) and has been terrorizing Paris for over a year not only gets hailed as a hero but gets his crimes buried by Ladybug meanwhile Chloe a child that has done far less than him not only gets treated like the devil incarnated but is sent off to live with her abuser as a 'just' punishment is quite frankly disturbing

#chloe bourgeois #gabriel agreste #ml spoilers #miraculous season 5 spoilers #ml season finale #ml season finale spoilers #marinete dupain cheng #ml gabriel agreste #S5 finale spoilers #ml chloe bourgeois #chloe bourgoeis #ml writers salt #ml finale #mlb #mlb season 5 #miraculous ladybug #thomas astruc #thomas astruc salt #chloé bourgeois #ml #queen bee #Hawkmoth #monarch #shadow moth #ml critical #ml writer critical #ml writing criticism #ml criticism #shadowmoth

[muggle-born-princess]

Gabriel: "I became a terrorist because I still loved and miss Emilie, and that's why I abused and gaslighted everyone; including Adrien."

Marinette: "I forgive you, I'll make sure I never tell the truth to anyone. Not even Adrien."

Félix: "I stole the miraculouses from you because I was ashamed for being a sentimonster, and I was abused for being one. I just wanted them to be free. Which is why I committed genocide."

Marinette: "I forgive you. Wanna join our team as the new Peacock holder?"

Chloé: "I bullied you because my mom abandoned me, and daddy didn't know how to raise me properly. I felt jealous, insecure and useless towards you. That's why I became Queen Bee and betrayed you."

Marinette: "FUCK YOU! LEAVE!"

#miraculous ladybug #mlb spoilers #mlb salt #ml s5 salt #marinette dupain cheng #gabriel agreste #felix fathom #chloe bourgeois #Oh and if any of you haters come up to me and mention Derision don't even think about it #that episode was a fucking piece of shit retcon meant to shit on Chloé fans like me #because tell me when was the last time S1 Chloe acted like oh yeah SHE DIDN'T! #felix salt #gabriel salt #This show also has the audacity to say. Male abused victims are sympathetic while female abused victims aren't. #the fuck outta here with that shit

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

There was no Redemption or Damnation. Chloe Doesn't Actually Have an Arc at All

Does Chloe have an abandoned redemption arc?

No. Absolutely not. She also doesn't have a “damnation” arc or really any arc at all. She is a font of wasted potential for both redemption and damnation who never gets a true chance at either path. To explain what I mean, I have to first discuss the two types of redemption arcs and also how damnation arcs work. I’ll be doing this by discussing the guy who started the redemption arc trend, Zuko, and why his story doesn’t work for people like Chloe.

The Two Types of Redemption + Some Bonus Damnation

There are two general paths to redemption: redemption through a change in worldview (the easy path) and redemption through a change in self (the hard path).

Redemption through a change in worldview is what happens when you take a character who is a fundamentally good person and give them a messed up worldview, usually through their upbringing. The story will see that worldview challenged, resulting in the character changing how they view the world, but that’s about it. They don’t really have to make major changes to themselves at a fundamental level.

This is Zuko’s path. He’s born in the Fire Nation and raised to think that the Fire Nation is good. He also has a strong sense of honor and wants to do right by his people. When he’s included in a war council and told that the army leaders are going to willingly sacrifice Fire Nation troops, he stands up and says that’s wrong. This act results in him getting banished. During his banishment, he gets to see the rest of the world and learn that the Fire Nation is, in fact, NOT good. This ultimately leads to him switching sides because he has a strong sense of honor and wants to do right by his people. Who he is and how he acts never really changes.

Chloe is not like Zuko. She is a selfish, egotistical, petty, spoiled brat. For her to be redeemed, she has to accept that fundamental aspects of her character are deeply flawed. This might involve some changes to her worldview, but that’s only a tiny piece of what needs to change and I’m honestly not sure that she really has a messed up worldview. There are multiple instances where it’s clear that she knows that she’s being mean or bad and just doesn’t care.

This brings us to the topic of damnation arcs. For something to be a damnation arc, a person has to be presented with a choice between good and evil and they have to choose evil. Zuko actually has one of these. At the end of the second season of Avatar, Zuko is given the choice to join the good guys or to join his sister and be accepted back into his family.

He chooses his sister.

That’s a damnation arc because Zuko truly had a chance to change sides. The scene would play very differently if Zuko had to choose between staying in exile and joining his sister. Joining his sister would still be the wrong move, but it’s no longer damnation. It’s just doing a bad thing vs doing nothing (though it can be argued to be somewhat damning since Zuko is going against his own morals). Along similar lines, Zuko is redeemed when he chooses to abandon his family to do what’s right even though it costs him everything he wanted: his family, his girlfriend, and his home.

This is where Chloe’s “damnation” and redemption arcs fall apart. There is no point in the series where she’s actively given a choice between good and evil. She only ever makes choices between inaction and evil or inaction and good. Does that make her a good person? Hell no! But it does make the argument that she had an arc fall very flat. She never gets better, but it's hard to say that she gets worse.

Chloe’s Choices: The Good and The Bad

Chloe becomes Queen Bee without anyone saying she was fit for the role. She just finds a miraculous and uses it. The way she uses it is selfish, egotistical, and petty. In other words, it’s just Chloe being Chloe. While the actions she takes are horrible and definitely deserve punishment, they’re in character. She’s not acting worse than normal, she’s just being herself, but with superpowers. If she’d been given the miraculous and been charged to be a hero, then her actions would be damning because she would be choosing to go against her charge. But she’s not. She has no charge.

To really assess if Chloe has potential to change, you have to look at what she does when she’s given the choice to be good and this is where things get messy.

This is how Chloe’s first encounter with her miraculous ends:

Ladybug: I have to get the Miraculous back, Chloé. (in the background, Nadja's van arrives) Chloé: Give me a second chance, please! Nadja: (holding a tablet with Audrey on it) Audrey Bourgeois, tell us live how you feel about what just happened. Audrey: (on the tablet) According to me, Chloé just clearly demonstrated that there is nothing exceptional about her. Cat Noir: (puts a hand on Chloé's shoulder) I know that you did the things you did to impress your mother. Ladybug: Anyone can make mistakes, even a superhero. What matters is how you fix them. I personally made one by losing that Miraculous. Don't make the mistake of not giving it back. Act like a hero. Cat Noir: And show everyone how exceptional you can be. (Chloé hands Ladybug the Miraculous) Ladybug: Thank you. Chloé: (the duo are about to run off) Ladybug? Cat Noir? (the cameraman moves closer) I'm sorry.

Chloe doesn't fight to keep her miraculous. A few quick lines are all it takes for her to hand it over. When Ladybug gives Chloe the chance to act like a hero would, Chloe acts like a hero. The same can be said of every subsequent time when Ladybug gives Chloe the bee miraculous. Every time Chloe is called upon to be Queen Bee, she does the job to the best of her abilities and acts as a functional member of the team. She's not incompetent. She doesn't put the team in danger so that she can be in the spotlight. Heck, the very next time she gets it, Chloe willingly admits that her father’s akumatization was her fault.

Chloé: It— it was me. I hurt my daddy's feelings. Because I want to leave Paris, forever. Ladybug: Because of what happened in school? I'm sure Marinette probably didn't exactly mean what she said. Chloé: Oh, it's not just her— actually, I don't even care about her— it's because I have no reason to be here: nobody likes me; I have no friends. I'm… useless. Ladybug: (remembering what Adrien told Marinette earlier at school about Chloé) A friend once told me: nobody is useless, Chloé. Chloé: It's easy for you to say that. You're Ladybug, a superhero. You serve a purpose. Ladybug: Yes, I can fix up all the messes. You said it yourself in your documentary. Chloé: (gasps) You saw it?! Ladybug: (nods) Mm-hmm. Chloé: Oh! I'm so embarrassed. That film's ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. I realize that now. Ladybug: Don't worry Chloé. You can fix your own messes, if that's what you want. You, too, can serve a purpose, but you have to want to. Chloé: (sniffles) I do want to.

When Ladybug asks Chloe to be a better person, Chloe is a better person.

This is why I say that Chloe has a perfectly functional view of the world. She knows when she’s doing something wrong and is able to do good when challenged to do so. Even on the civilian side, we see that Chloe is willing to be a little better when given the proper motivation. In Despair Bear, Adrien says he’ll end their friendship and so Chloe actively tries to save that friendship even if she hates every minute of it. Similarly, in Zombiezoo, Chloe sacrifices herself so that Ladybug can win.

Now, none of this is a redemption. It is, at best, the foundation for a redemption. We see that Chloe has the potential to be good when challenged to do so by the right person or circumstance, but she’s not trying to be better outside of those moments when she’s challenged. For her redemption to really start, she has to choose good over evil. She has to start improving when Ladybug isn’t watching or when Adrien isn’t threatening their friendship. For it to be a damnation, she has to choose evil over good.

She is never truly given that choice.

The two big scenes where Chloe gets “worse” are at the end of Queen Wasp and at the end of Hearthunter. However, in both of those scenes, no one gives her a choice to be better even though she’s primed and ready to make that choice.

Queen Wasp: When the Civilian Moment Should Have Happened

At the tail end of Queen Wasp, Marinette has the choice to go to New York with Audrey or stay in Paris. She chooses Paris, but brings Chloe with her to try and repair the relationship between mother and daughter. Here, Marinette gets to really see just how little Audrey cares for Chloe.

In a show where Chloe has a character arc, this should be the moment when she’s given a choice. She’s just spent the whole episode trying to get her mom to love her and it’s gone nowhere. Marinette, our hero, is standing right there, fully capable of saying, “You know what Chloe, your mom sucks and you don't need her validation. I know some people who already think that you're awesome. Come on, let’s get you back home and I’ll call Adrien and Sabrina to meet us there.”

Instead, this is what happens:

Marinette: I think you're wrong. A huge part of your life is here in Paris, too! (she steps aside, showing Chloé and Butler Jean) Audrey: Chlorene? Uh— Chloé? Chloé: (looks at her mother, then at Marinette in a guilty manner, then back at her mom) Why don't you love me, Mom? Audrey: But… Uh— Of course I l-l-love you. Marinette: (groans) You're also wrong about your daughter not being exceptional. In fact, Chloé is exceptionally mean. She's the worst person I've ever met. She may be more heinous, pompous and selfish than you. Compared to both of you, even a rock seems more capable of love. (Audrey and Chloé are furious with Marinette for telling mean things to them.) Chloé and Audrey: (shouting) How dare you⁈ (gasp and look surprised at each other) Marinette: See? You're both much more alike than you think. (walks off; humming)

…our hero, Ladies and Gentlemen.

I’m not saying that Chloe’s poor behavior is Marinette’s fault. Chloe’s choices are her own, but it’s hard to say, “why didn’t she change?” when even Ladybug doesn’t seem to want her to. If no one is actively encouraging Chloe whenever she does better, then it's 1000x harder for her to get better. Fake it til you make it is a huge part of self improvement. Being a better person for validation or selfish reasons often leads to meaningful change and is a legitimate way to start a self-driven redemption arc. (Go watch The Good Place if you want a prime example of this.)

Hearthunter: When the Hero Moment Should Have Happened

Hearthunter and Miracle Queen are supposedly the end of Chloe’s “damnation” arc. The moment where she makes the wrong choice and, to be clear, Chloe does the wrong thing here. Helping Hawkmoth is a bad move and she deserved to face some consequences. However, the choice to help Hawkmoth has the weirdest setup for a “damnation” arc that I’ve ever seen.

In Miraculer, we get this line from Gabriel: all I need is for [Chloe] to lose all hope in Ladybug. To become angry enough so I can akumatize her.

This is also the episode where Chloe rejects an akuma (Chloé: No, Hawk Moth! I am a superheroine! I am Queen Bee! Ladybug will come and get me when she needs me! I WILL NEVER JOIN YOU!), the episode where Lila helps manipulate Chloe into doubting Ladybug, and the episode where Ladybug tell’s Chloe that she’ll never be Queen Bee again, setting up the tension for the season final.

However, even though that tension is set, the thing that turns Chloe to the dark side is… her parents being akumatized. Not some random akuma that Chloe wants to help with. Not Hawkmoth just randomly showing up with the bee. No, we have both of Chloe's parents as the victim of the day and Ladybug actively chooses Ryuuko over Queen Bee, making Chloe the first and only hero who doesn’t get called in when a loved one is in trouble.

All of that leads to this:

Hawk Moth: Chloé Bourgeois, rejections hurt! (Chloé turns to face him) Your talents deserve to be recognized! Ladybug and Cat Noir's reign has gone on long enough. It's time for Paris to have a new queen, and the Queen Bee on my chessboard is you. Chloé: You've akumatized my parents! If I had my Miraculous I'd- Hawk Moth: (puts up his hand and interrupts) You're right, but I did it for one reason only. So that you would finally realize that Ladybug will never give you the Bee Miraculous again. I, however, always keep my promises. (shows her the Bee Miraculous in his hand) Chloé: This isn't real! How do you have it? Hawk Moth: Try it and see for yourself. You're Ladybug's greatest fan. You've helped her, you've trusted her, and what has she done for you in return? Chloé: (gets angry) Nothing! She couldn't care less about me! I'm done with her. She's irrelevant, utterly irrelevant! (reaches out to grap the Miraculous, stops) I want you to deakumatize has my parents first!

Just like with Queen Wasp, Chloe does the wrong thing. She didn’t have to take the bee. She didn't have to stay selfish, egotistical, and petty. But at the same time, this isn’t really a damning act. It's an act that makes her unsuitable to be Queen Bee again, but she wasn't going to be Queen Bee anyway. She wasn't choosing to be a villain over a hero. She was just choosing to be selfish at a time when she's been actively manipulated and when her parents are in danger.

In other words, this is just Chloe being Chloe. She’s acting the same way she did when she first got her miraculous. If no one is going to believe in her, then why should she be a better person? Why shouldn't she just stay the same? She's arguably no worse than she was in Queen Wasp, the consequences are just greater because of Hawkmoth's plan and the powers he gives her. The only real change is that she no longer idolizes Ladybug so Ladybug no longer has a chance to encourage Chloe to be a better person, but Ladybug never did that anyway, so what does it really matter?

Once again, none of this is to blame Marinette. She doesn't have to try and make her bully a better person. That's a huge ask. But with no one actively trying to make Chloe better even when she shows that she can be better when given the right motivation, it's silly to say that Chloe had a damnation arc or really any arc at all. She ended where she started and, if that's all they wanted to do with her, then they should have just left her as a one-dimensional mean girl instead of making her one of the most developed characters in this bloated mess of a show.

Personally, I would have liked to see a redemption arc because I enjoy morally grey characters and it would have been nice to have someone on the team who wasn't a kind, sweet, goody-goody (for a team with 18 freaking members, there's really no moral diversity, which is boring). It also would have stopped Chloe and Lila filling the same basic role for 3 seasons, which was stupid. (Why do you think Lila showed up so little? It's because Chloe could do almost everything she could do and do it better.) Second choice would be don't develop Chloe, leave her as a petty mean girl and give her focused screen time to Nino and Adrien. Their relationship is barely a thing and that's disappointing considering its strong setup. Cutting Lila and giving Chloe a true damnation arc would have also been far more satisfying.

#chloe burgeois #chloé bourgeois #miraculous salt #ml writing salt #ml writing critical #queen bee #If you read this then thanks! I mostly just wanted to stop thinking about this and writing it down got it out of my brain #I don't love Chloe but the current lineup is just so bleh and I miss having her to shake things up #ml salt #chloe deserves better #or worse #worse works too

[miraculousdeservesbetter2024]

Lmao, I think it would’ve been ironic if Chloe did what her father failed to do: become a better person and succeeded in her goals and dreams, without her parent(s) approval or input.

#chloe bourgeois deserves better #chloe bourgeois #pro chloé bourgeois #miraculous ladybug #ml #mlb #miraculous tales of ladybug and chat noir #miraculous #miraculous tales of ladybug and cat noir #miraculousbeezcentral #bee miraculous #andre salt #audrey salt #breaking chains

[iwasbored777]

Lmfao did André really say that he should fix the mistake he made with Chloé and by that he didn't mean accepting the consequences for her behaviour - a girl that he raised - and trying to teach her to be a better person but he actually decided to send her with her mother and he would take care of his wife's nicer daughter. And I thought Audrey is supposed to be the bad parent here. They're both awful. "I do not want the kid I screwed up with when I raised her all by myself she's no longer my obligation I will now take this kid that other man raised with my wife who's much better and take the credit for this good kid that's how parenting works". Kids are not vegetables, you can't just throw them away when they go bad and buy new ones... I just... How do you even take this show seriously?!

#this is literally just a chloe salt fic it's not even a show #miraculous ladybug #chloé bourgeois #andre bourgeois #andre salt #ml salt

[leadenn]

thinking about how Chloé Bourgeois' neglectful father is given more sympathy than she is even though her mother is abusive and her Dad can be politely described as neglectful.

Why couldn't we have Zoé and Chloé having a good relationship? Zoé shows Chloé that family is more than just getting screamed at by your mother and then getting shoes as an apology from your dad, and Chloé teaches Zoé to stick up for herself.

And fuck André and Audrey bro. Wow Chloé grew up to be a mean brat? I WONDER WHY THAT HAPPENED. I WONDER WHERE SHE GOT THAT FROM.

André feels very much like a foxhole parent, like he tells Zoé that they're in it together against Audrey. He's painted as the good parent but there's no such thing as a good parent in an abusive home. He is an adult, the girls are KIDS. It's his job to protect both of his daughters, and when he finally did step up and told Audrey off he only chose one child to protect. A CHILD THAT HE HASN'T EVEN KNOWN FOR A YEAR BY THE WAY, yet his biological daughter doesn't get that treatment. Chloé has to live with her abuser, because she's Chloé and isn't allowed to have any sort of redemption.

Honestly, her ending is terrifying. She's moving in with her abusive mother and Zoé is just a replacement child to André. Zoé's entire character is just "isn't she better than her sister?" and that isn't fair to her. It's not fair to Chloé, they're two separate characters and Zoé should have a fucking character that doesn't revolve around her sister being the spawn of satan.

I just like to think Zoé and Chloé could've had a great sibling relationship if the writers weren't cowards.

#chloé redemption arc #chloé bourgeois #zoé lee #andre bourgeois #audrey bourgeois #audrey bourgeois is the worst #andre bourgeois is also the worst #mlb #miraculous ladybug #mlb salt #mlb writers salt

[lurkinginmyboots]

You guys ever think about Heroes Day. I think about Heroes Day a lot. Remember when there were only five heroes and they all made sense. God I miss that team

#miraculous ladybug #adrien agreste #chloé bourgeois #marinette dupain cheng #nino lahiffe #alya cesaire #ml writers salt

[nerd-chocolate]

The Bourgeois Family’s and Zoé Lee’s colors symbolize, civilian and akuma analysis:

Okay, hear me out on this one! It will be real quick I promise. So let’s get started, shall we? Also sorry for not having more of a better introduction to this post, I’ll be better next time I promise.

The Akuma Designs:

After looking at all of the akuma designs that the bourgeois family and Zoé Lee had including their concept art, especially Sole Crusher’s first design, I concluded. They all share common colors. They are black and yellow, you could also say red as well since both Heart Hunter and Antibug share that color between them. But the only design that doesn’t have yellow and black is Sole Crusher’s concept art where she is all blue vs her final design and why I begin this up it all makes sense you see. You can see this with all the akuma designs in the show shown here.

Why Colors are so important:

You want to know why these mean something because it shows how connected they are and mainly means Chloé, André, and Audrey. I get to Zoé a bit but right now let’s focus on these three first.

Okay, Chloé’s first akuma which was Antibug had primarily red and black which doesn’t mean anything in season one since André didn’t akumatized in season one and Audrey didn’t even show up in that season but surprisingly red does come back in Malediktator and Heart Hunter’s designs (I’m not counting when scarlet moth akumatized them since every akuma was red in those episodes because Scarlet Moth himself by the way) so red does show up in two of Chloé’s akumas in season 4 it doesn’t have that big of an impact, unlike the blacks and yellows in their designs.

Because they all have yellow and black in them, Antibug’s all-black suit with the red polkas, Style Queens having the blacks on her weird hair thing and black edges on her suit, Malediktator having the black stripes on his shoulder pads Queen Wasp also having a all black-suit with yellow stripes since she just Queen Bee Akuma but her colors flipped, Queen Banana having black stripes on her design like hair, dress, weapon, mask, and shoes/legs, finally Penalteam having black jersey, black fingerless gloves, her having black on her boots, and her sunglasses having black shades. They all use black as an accent color well except Queen Wasp (and Miracle Queen but I didn’t mention her since she is the same design as Queen Wasp but has a crown and armor on her) but it is worth noting that they all have black and more importantly yellow on their designs especially after Style Queen started it in season and the other designs expect Heart Hunter, Sole Destroyer, and Mayor Chloé in season five (if anyone actually cares but I don’t) which is honestly kinda fits since black is symbolic for evil and power which makes sense for all these akumas, their motivations, and more importantly what the crew thinks of their character since the very beginning, they were also seen as bad by everyone in the show and the crew. They all made a person sad or mad enough to get akumatized even to each other most importantly Audrey, who caused Queen Bee to get akumatized and André (addition Chloé as well) to get akumatized in the same season and the Queen’s battle arc. But these characters’ akuma all want some sort of power or control over someone. Malediktator is self-explanatory I mean it’s in the name, Style Queen wanted to fire anyone that she thought was unexceptional or disrespectful to her in her opinion, and Chloé’s akumas always share this broad goal of power (wanting to be the only hero and prove to her mother, wanted to play a soccer in her way so she can win, want to change a movie because her sister is in it, and again wanted to prove that she a hero to her used to be idol, Ladybug) so yeah the black works knowing what black is symbolism most of the time. But now what does yellow have to do with this?

A whole lot and I’m not even gonna go in depth where the yellow is placed on all of these designs except the ones I mentioned that didn’t have the yellow so I just said what yellow is symbolic for. Yellow in a negative way is used for cowardice, impatience, betrayal, and egotism and that last one is fitting since the bourgeois family all have big egos even if they are not an akuma especially Audrey since she is never shown to be insecure about something on the screen where it noticeably unlike André and Chloé. Cowardice makes sense only for André and Chloé especially André, let’s face it the biggest coward in the whole show is next to Damocles and while Chloé can act brave, she can be cowardly especially if she is the one getting chased by an akuma which she caused which mostly happened in the first season but it never really went away. Betrayal is something I noticed when comes to these akuma’s actions, like Style Queen betray her daughter when Chloé was helping Ladybug, Malediktator did brainwash his wife to be more obey and later trying to do the same thing with Chloé in the same episode, and Chloé betrays Ladybug’s trust in Miracle Queen and turns on Sabrina when she presents during her akumas and didn’t care when she was Queen Banana and Sole Destroyer. But where they all share something in common is impatience. Their impatience where either wearing thin or just nonexistent most of the time, the most being Style Queen since she just fired anyone that didn’t do what she said immediately, Malediktator was wearing his thin when Chloé kept running away from him each time, and Chloé’s akuma kinda flipped flopped while some of akumas can have patience, they quickly become nonexistent when they get angry like Queen Banana and Antibug. So when they all lose patience it is when they’re losing to Ladybug and Chat Noir so patience becomes nonexistent when things don’t go their way especially Chloé’s. So yeah after breaking all of their designs down and how the blacks and yellow mean in their designs and characters where does Sole Crusher and her concept design stand? Well, I’m glad you asked since it leads to my next point.

Why Sole Crusher’s current one doesn’t work at all:

Okay I know I said “I don’t think Sole Crusher’s design in the show is that bad and it was her poorly-written personality that made the akuma bad” Well I lied since it was Zoé’s debut episode and I love Zoé since I have to admit she one of my comfort characters but doesn’t mean her akuma or debut get a free pass and both of them that made the akuma design pretty bad because aside the fact that it doesn’t feel like, look, or even hints to Zoé at all, it just cluttered mess. Sole Crusher has no reason to have horns on her back or shoes since they don’t even do or help the design whatsoever. She has way too many horns on her head, two or heck even four would be enough not fucking eight! The diamonds all over her don’t help at all, instead, they just make it look like a cluttered mess since she has diamonds on her forehead and the top of her eyebrows and don't even function as eyebrows since she still has them so what’s even the point? Because of this, her concept one looks so much cleaner and less cluttered than her canon one, there are some things I may not like but at least there isn’t as much as her canon character I found. And I know I sound dumb when saying this but the concept feels like Zoé to me than her current one ever did since it doesn’t feel like a Chloé or any of the Bourgeois family because of her color palette and I’ll explain that in the next paragraph. Overall I hate this design and this just makes me long for her concept even if it has its problems I have. It's just a cleaner design but that's beside the point and let’s talk about their color schemes, the concept art, and the canon one.

Sole Crusher’s color scheme in canon doesn’t make any sense since her personality didn’t fit what personality Sole Crusher was barely given. Since she isn’t cowardly, she never betrays anyone that we know of, she doesn’t have an ego, and most importantly she does have patience since she decided to wait for Ladybug and Chat Noir to get to the hotel rather than going after them immediately or throwing a tantrum. Which to me doesn’t fit with Sole Crusher’s or Zoé’s personality at all

since yellow was always portrayed as bad in this show since a few of our ‘good’ characters wore yellow in their actual designs you could say, I’m overthinking it but I’m not since I went to check and all the akuma class doesn’t wear yellow except Nino but he just wears a yellow bracelet. So why in the world put yellow on the girl if she isn’t even close to her family except for one member and it is the one that is a coward? And this is why I said light blue would work better for Sole Crusher’s design than yellow because it would show how she isn’t like them and is disconnected from them which isn’t a bad thing since let’s be honest who even wants to be related to the Bourgeois family. After all, I surely don’t. And light blue could work for her personality if she had any because she doesn’t have one that truly defines her. And yes I know maybe that was the point of her personality and writers probably thought that but I don’t think that executed well or not even at all and we’re giving these writers too much credit because these writers made Simpleman which is a dumb episode.

Anyway back to my point, Sole Crusher being all blue like her concept art would work better since it symbolizes how she isn’t a Bourgeois, and deep down she doesn’t want to be like any of them, she is a Lee, and knows it. Also light blue/blue color symbolizes unfriendliness, sadness, impersonal, passive, and emotionally unstable when it comes to personality, which does fit Malediktator and André and Chloé and her akumas pretty well I will admit but that would also fit with Sole Crusher since before getting akumatized Zoé was passive towards Chloé’s behavior and let her walk all over her and broke down into tears when she was alone and you could say Sole Crusher was trying to match Chloé’s unfriendliness and her lack of personality also helps but I don’t think that last one is a good idea for someone’s debut episode and Sole Crusher being impersonal could honestly work. There are not many examples for Sole Crusher where I could say for blue color works on her when it comes to personality when I try to think of one, unlike the Bourgeois family akumas I mentioned before since she doesn’t have one where is more defined like other akumas and that’s biggest problem with her akuma as a whole and that shouldn’t be fair to Zoé since this her only akuma she got ever since her debut episode. So why does she get the short end of the stick here? That isn’t fair even if that was to point to her personality, it just doesn’t work, I’m sorry it just doesn’t. But I should give these colors a more positive light since there are some positive meanings to these colors and which ones fit the Bourgeois Family and Zoé.

The Positive Meanings of Black, Yellow, and Blue:

I have been negative about these colors huh? Well, change that shall we? I can tell you now blue more positive meanings are a bit more fitting for Sole Crusher and Zoé.

Okay let’s start with the black meanings, black usually means elegance and sophistication which does fit with Audrey, André, and Chloé since they either are that way or they think they are that. But for Zoé those don’t fit her or Sole Crusher and since I forgot to mention this I feel someone will eventually do so might as well say it. Yes, Sole Crusher does black in her design but just like Queen Banana and Penalteam with their red eyes, it doesn’t matter and it is only on her eyelashes and pupils. But the black on Zoé’s leather jacket is worth mentioning and while elegant and sophisticated may not be that important to her rebellion which symbolizes honesty fits her since goes against Audrey’s and Chloé’s standards of being a Bourgeois. Another thing to note is that black is used to symbolize mystery which does fit Audrey and Zoé since no one knew who they were until meeting them in canon respectively in their debut episodes.

Okay the only thing yellow in a positive light when it comes to the Bourgeois family is probably happiness for Chloé since let’s be honest, she takes pleasure from bullying her peers and you said the same happens to Audrey and André when she is impressed by someone and him when he with his daughter or having his hotel be habitat by celebrities. But as for Zoé when it comes to yellow, it was harder for me when she can be happy with the people who truly care about her and friendship where she gets a lot of them (even though we see them on screen as much as I want) when she in Paris but even then yellow isn’t that fitting for her as much as the other Bourgeois family members. So sorry this isn’t a lot but I think the blue one would be interesting and heard me out on that one.

Blue symbolizes calm, reliability, patience, and bravery in a more positive light. And while Chloé does show some bravery when she becomes a superhero for a brief time during seasons 2-3 and André tries being calm and patient with his wife and daughter when they want something. They don’t show it as much and backtrack them more often than not, especially André since he is quick to panic and quick to make his wife and daughter happy even if someone suffers for it to make it happen as much as possible. And as for Chloé…. Well, she does have some bravery but I think that more of having a big ego and stupid writing in the later seasons (Yes I know that Audrey has blue eyes but so does the rest family and they are not as prominent as the others since she always wearing sunglasses in her appearances and while she does show calm and bravery, it reads more like she doesn’t give a shit about some situations most of the time, just wanted to mention that). But enough about them, these traits fit Zoé a lot more than the yellow did for her. Patience and calm are not only present in Zoé but in Sole Crusher as well since she decided to wait and get powerful before chasing after the heroes immediately and she looked pretty calm and sly when the heroes left to go to the hotel. Yeah, Zoé being associated with the color blue makes sense since she is a reliable friend when she shows up, is brave to stand up to her sister in Queen Banana (which I know isn’t much but still), she very patient when putting up with her family, and she has this calm demeanor in her character when she does show up. I know it doesn’t seem much to you but to me, it does even if I didn’t have that many examples of the things I was talking about and I still wanted to mention them.

My Personal Opinion/Conclusion:

In my opinion, Zoé should be associated with the color blue rather than yellow. I’m not saying get rid of the yellow entirely but make yellow a bit more of an accent color like Chloé having blue eyes and blue eyeshadow or André having the blue striped on his sash. Just make the yellow on Zoé’s design an accent rather than her main color heck just change the color of her pants to blue then just have her shoes have the yellow on them already. And I know what you guys going to say but shouldn’t she try to look connected to her family in some way while might be right about that, I say that her being disconnected from her family makes sense since she isn’t like them like I said before she is a Lee not a Bourgeois and that fine. Getting rid of the yellow entirely doesn’t make sense, making it her main color doesn’t either since yellow has been portrayed as a bad thing in this show rather than a good thing and she doesn’t fit in the yellow symbolism I mentioned.

Overall, the crew just didn’t care about Zoé and just wanted to create a replacement for Chloé so the fandom could stop complaining about her failed and probably nonexistent redemption arc but decided to be lazy and just rush Zoé out. This causes discourse in the fandom with some Chloé fans (the toxic ones not all of them but some) hating on Zoé even though it is not her fault for being this way it was the miraculous crew’s fault for this, not the character. This also caused a lot of potential not only with Zoé but with Chloé as well. And I don’t even like Chloé as much as other fans but even I think we missed an interesting dynamic with the two in multiple ways. So that is what I’m planning to do in my rewrite of Sole Crusher so maybe I can give Zoé some justice because she deserves better than what she gave from not only the crew but also some of the fandom (not salting anyone that doesn’t use Zoé, you do you my guy and I get it, just feel like people just kinda give up on Zoé and just uses her for Chloé’s development which can be frustrating to me). Please don’t take that to heart and I just want to let you know my opinion at the end of the day. So I hope you enjoy this post and are having a lovely day or night when you're reading or seeing this post, bye!!

#miraculous ladybug #miraculous #zoé lee #chloé bourgeois #andre bourgeois #audrey bourgeois #akuma design #akuma #zoe lee #chloe bourgeois #miraculous salt #ml fandom salt (just a bit)

[purplezombietumbler]

Chloé: Would you guys be there for me if i was going through something?

Zoé: No.

Alix: Nope.

Rose: Absolutely not.

Everyone: *Laughs*

Nino: Hope it sucks whatever your going through.

Alya: Haha wow!

Ivan: *Laughing* I hope it sucks!?

Nathaniel: What the fuck!?

Marinette: Hope it emotionally scars you for the rest of your life.

Adrian: Hope you reach out me so I can ignore you.

Everyone: *Laughs*

Sabrina: I can't wait to go to your funeral knowing I could've changed that outcome.

Mylène: WHAT THE HELL!?

Marc: Shit got real, real quick.

Chloé: I was just asking if you'd BE THERE FOR ME OMG!

#funny #incorrect quotes #chloé bourgeois salt #chloé bourgeois #Would you guys be there for me if i was going through something? #miraculous incorrect quotes #miraculous tales of ladybug and cat noir #miraculous ladybug #sabrina raincomprix #Sabrina gets revenge

[pro-bee-sisters]

I don't think I should've added Lila due to her...er...current arc atm in the show, but I know that some people like them together, and again, this could be more of a fanon thing.

#I'm not adding no one because I don't want salt in the tags or fights in the comments please #Plus this is more of a fanon thing #miraculous ladybug #chloe bourgeois #queen bee #chloé bourgeois #marinette dupain cheng #luka couffaine #sabrina raincomprix #alix kubdel #alya cesaire #lila rossi #adrien agreste #kagami tsuguri #nathaniel kurtzberg #chlonette #lukole #chlobrina #chlolix #chlolya #chlolila #chloadrien #chlogami #chlonath #shippings #poll #Oh and if you're a chloe hater #Fuck off now because I don't want to deal with your shit #Please and thank you <3

[artzychic27]

What if in the favoritism au, Socqueline was Marinette’s right hand woman and was the only one who knew about her real personality but didn’t really care because she saw herself in Marinette in a way?

Socqueline is just as bad as Marinette, hell, maybe worse. She ran for student body President to keep the outcast students in line and is doing everything in her power to make sure no Marinette has no competition for when she runs

She helps Marinette by taking part in tormenting Marc by assisting in the dress codes and making it so he can’t wear his ripped jeans

And she implemented a “Best Buddies” system for the school, making it so he could no longer sit alone during study hall and write and was forced to spend time with a student who knowingly tortures him on Marinette’s whim

And she acts as if it’s all for the good of the school’s image, when, in reality, she’s giving Marinette ideas for when she runs

In her eyes, there are The Betters like her and Marinette, and The Lessers like Marc. The Betters are the faces of the school, the athletes, the rich kids, the student government, anyone lucky to be friends with them, etc., and The Lessers are meant only to follow the rules of The Betters and no one will remember them when everyone graduates

Socqueline helps Marinette keep tabs on those she has blackmail on, all compiled in a folder on her tablet (Which never leaves her side)

And in that tablet is another folder with blackmail on current and potential students

Marc has been trying forever to get that tablet, but the walls have ears…

When Chloé eventually gets Socqueline expelled (Because student body president can’t trump Mayor’s Daughter), it’s as if a huge weight left the students shoulders, and they aren’t sure why… Yet

Still, they think Socqueline is this saint who only wanted to help them, and Chloé only got rid of her because she was Marinette’s friend

Chloé: *Walks into the bathroom to reapply her makeup. It takes her a moment to finally address Marc standing behind her* … I’m pretty sure this is the girl’s bathroom.

Marc: Don’t care. Just answer me this. Why did you do it?

Chloé: … I think we both know what will happen if DuPain-Cheng becomes president. Rules that will make school even harder for you, dress codes to keep you from wearing nothing but black, and re-instating that God-awful buddy system to make sure you’re paired up with her lapdogs.

Marc: What’s in it for you?

Chloé: *Reapplies her mascara* Well, while I have no opinions of you, I’m not quite fond of DuPain-Cheng’s behavior. It’s a little… Stalkerish? I’ve seen the way she practically drools at the sight of her obsessions, and I saw her digging through their trash cans. And… I don’t know, I guess it’s demented how she’s been treating you, Anciel.

Marc: But why do something now? Why not when she got two assholes from the basketball team to dunk my head in the toilet after I was supposedly caught taking drugs in the bathroom?

Chloé: I didn’t have a reason then. But now, I do. Adrien Agreste is coming here next year, and I know damn well that creep is going to traumatize him. What better way to ensure she can’t get what she wants than by removing her ticket to power over the school?

Marc: That’ll do nothing. These brainless sycophants worship the ground she walks on and the rest will do whatever it takes to make sure she’s president if it means making sure their secrets aren’t exposed to the city.

Chloé: Up for a little voter fraud?

Marc: I’m listening.

#miraculous ladybug #miraculous #marc anciel #socqueline wang #favoritism au #answered ask #ask me stuff #mlb au #Marinette salt #chloé bourgeois

[generalluxun]

I think the reason why Chloe is so controversial in the fandom is that both sides can be toxic. Some Chloe stans are toxic and jerks, but some of the toxic Chloe haters are no better. They act like toxic Chloe stans by shaming, harassing and bullying people who do like her. They also cannot respect opinions as well. These are just my thoughts.

There are several reasons I think.

Clearly there are people who project themselves onto Marinette and then project their own personal bully experiences onto Chloé. Without actual therapy or time+healing on their own, these people will never accept any reasoned argument about Chloé as a character, because to them she isn't a character, she is their personal bully. The transference supplants the actual narrative.

There are definitely toxic behaviors among some of the people who claim to like Chloé too. I do think there's value in breaking down the who and why though.

There are the pot stirrers: These people actually don't care about Chloé per-se they just see a hot take and jump on it, hoping to cause as much trouble as they can. These folks aren't really 'Chloé stans' heck, they probably aren't even ML fans. They're instigators. It's important to recognize one when you see them and simply pitch their noise into the bin 'Chloé did nothing wrong!' is such a silly and clearly wrong take that it can only be from one of these folks.

There are those who are frustrated: I lay the blame for this segment squarely at Thomas Astruc's feet. He makes bold, dismissive, and authoritative statements, escalating all the way to open gaslighting when confronted, or even just lightly questioned in regards to Chloé's character.

'Chloé is not abused' -SIR, please consult someone with even the rudiments of child development education and review what has actually been put on screen. I know whether I am going to believe you, or my lying eyes. Thank you.

His antics and the narrative in general ignoring what has already been put on screen frustrates a LOT of people, and deeply so. Child abuse isn't a light topic, people have *feelings* about it. TA is unreachable and unengagable though, and so a chunk of people turn their frustrations elsewhere. They lash out at other characters, and by proxy their stans, and you get this whole negative feedback loop in the fandom while I presume TA just sits back with a drink in hand, throwing darts at pictures of blond girls, and laughing.

There are those who can't express themselves well: Remember this is a kids show so a large chunk of the fandom is well, unsurprisingly, kids! Kids without the raw learning to necessarily articulate their arguments with nuance. This is how you get a dozen tweets to Ta asking 'When is Chloé going to get some development?' to which he can derisively reply 'She has, you just don't like it!' and durr hurr hurr isn't he so clever.

If the fan had instead put forth clear concise examples of the abuse on screen, how it ties into actual child development practices, how they want this *child* to be shown growing and overcoming these huge hurdles because you know, they're decent human beings, and their confusion as to why a show about superheroes/Magical girls hasn't done that.... well, it would be harder to dismiss.

Take that exchange, and now instead shift it to folks among the fandom themselves. Short, sweeping statements that don't really express what they are feeling effectively. This happens between Adrien/Mari stans when they fight too. Not every 13yr old should be expected to know college level Psyche, but it can lead to miscommunication and then acrimony when they engage without it.

I want to point out this also works for things not involving Chloé at all.

Marinette stans trying to explain why they feel Marinette is so put upon while others argue that she gets everything and *Adrien* is the put upon one, all getting into protracted battles while shouting half-formed ideas and confused impressions from an inconsistent and poorly framed narrative at each other.

Is Marinette a Mary Sue who is handed things in a silver platter? *YES*

Is she ALSO an emotional damage magnet, abused by the narrative relentlessly and blamed for things not her fault? *YES*

These two ideas can both exist at the same time, but a lot of people have a hard time juggling that, so we get arguments and toxicity because this is the internet and too much is never enough of anything.

#ask #fandom #not salt but exploring behaviors #chloé bourgeois #marinette dupain cheng

[muggle-born-princess]

Seeing Kitana and Mileena as actual sisters instead of rivals is what I needed after what happened to Chloé and Zoé in Miraculous Shitbug.

Thomas Astruc is SO shaking in his boots after seeing this.

#mortal kombat #mortal kombat 1 #mk1 #mk1 spoilers #miraculous ladybug #mlb salt #kitana #mileena #chloé bourgeois #zoé lee #queen bee #vesperia