#alicent's characterization

[horizon-verizon]

Rhaenys killing smallfolk is so…. Like wtf, and then people be like “Kinslaying is the worst crime there is! She’d be stupid to do it!”, first HOTD never introduces the notion of kinslaying, and killing hundreds of people is a crime too! She is already a criminal for what she did, why stop halfway if you’re going full murderer ? If you’re gonna commit a decapitation worthy offence, then you might as well kill the people who are a legitimate threat to your future great grandchildren and granddaughters themselves.

Them coming out saying that Rhaenys didn’t kill them because it’s not her war…. Lol, it was her war the moment she agreed to betroth her granddaughters to Rhaenyra’s sons. Her family (the little that is left of it) is in legitimate danger and she passed up the opportunity to kill people who WERE ACTIVELY PLANNING ON KILLING HER FAMILY ANYWAYS. (Yes, I know it was mostly Rhaenyra and Daemon but Jace and Luke and Joff would have to go too and Daemon is the father of Rhaena and Baela, the twins have legal claim to the throne, so no ways they letting that slide either).

Yeah, this has been my argument as well. I will never not be angry about this damned episode, esp this scene.

My biggest gripe about this fool of an episode is that if Rhaenys says she doesn't want to "be involved" in "their" war is that in ANY iteration of these events where Baela & Rhaena exist without turning this into a full-fledged AU like sweetestpopcorn's "The Black and the Greens", Rhaenys will ALWAYS be "involved"...

because those girls are DAEMON'S DAUGHTERS and ONE OF THEM LIVES WITH DAEMON AND RHAENYRA!!! And this Rhaenys constantly has said she primarily cares about her own kids and grandchildren, not Viserys, Daemon, or Rhaenyra...so what gives?!

In a world where these strategy-minded people would, you know, think strategy...Rhaenys practically spoon-fed them a public reason to go to war and assume a protective-justice persona!!!

To further paint the blacks as violence mongerers or even just shit-starters, even with those killed being peasants, bc the sheer number of people killed simultaneously who live around you & around your castle who have historically been a part of some Faith-led attacks against the crown (Aenys, Maegor, Rhaena & her brother Aegon--the Poor Fellows) is astronomical. Killing that many smallfolk doesn't pay and rather makes for a larger number of angrier smallfolk with a reason to be angrier than average. You'd think she'd realize that and idk, maybe not kill dozens if not thousands of smallfolk.

Otto will always look to them as possible rivals because of that connection to the person he thinks will likely always contend with him/anyone for power, espe after he includes the younger boys' hostage-taking in his terms in episode 10. Aside from Otto--who had a grip on Alicent's decision-making until it came to Rhaenyra (as if Rhaenyra doesn't come with her kids, who Alicent has accepted the risk of exile or total ruination for 10 years, but I digress).

And Alicent--by the next season's 2 trailers--appears to go back to Otto as a consultant and guide as to how the greens will face the blacks, so we can't argue that she will not escape his influence even with her allowing herself to understand his manipulativeness. She obviously didn't want a war and has tried to stave it off by holding Rhaenys hostage and sending that damned page to Rhaenyra with Otto's terms--that is if she actually sent it--she also sets up a possible war through usurping Rhaenyra in the first place! And Alicent isn't actually fighting against Rhaenyra for the sake of "the realm" but for for her own position as the mother to a possible king/wife of a past king and the lives of her kids.

Even in the book--if you are inclined to believe that she believes this and/or has sincerely taken Otto's fear of Daemon as her own maybe bc similarly to the show he instilled in her that fear of him--Alicent brings up Daemon's supposed bloodthirstiness and inevitable murder of her kids as reason to usurp Rhaenyra ("The Blacks and the Greens"):

As for the kinslaying part, they refused to insert Rhaenyra's lines of that, instead making her grab Otto's pendant and throwing it off the bridge in a much more flaccid version of what she does with Orwyle's chains in the book. Without the context of her giving Aegon that chance to withdraw AND criticizing Orwyle taking the green side and basically going against his own maester code of following traditions and laws, show!Rhaenyra's protests against Otto is more losing the desired cool & careful, wise reservedness that HotD already favors over original "proud" book!Rhaenyra. And I think that it's to give the Dance story this faux measure of "balance" that ozymalek talks about HERE:

People often argue whether HOTD showrunners are biased in favor of Team Black or Team Green. I think the answer to this question can't be encapsulated within the context of "bias", at least not fully. They are biased for both and neither at the same time and it's difficult to explain, but I will try to articulate how I see it. The Dance era in "Fire and Blood" is something that will fundamentally cause the feelings of cognitive dissonance. I think this is why people initially disliked this book when it first came out. It did not provide easy answers, it was written as a historical account, the in-universe historians were clearly biased. People, however, had trouble realizing who the historians are biased for and against. Team Green would have you think that "F&B" is biased against the Greens, because their allegiance as maesters clearly being to Hightowers notwithstanding, they could not evade simple historical facts: that most of the kingdom supported Rhaenyra, that Greens were horrendously misogynistic and that her usurpation was clearly wrong. That's why, approaching it from the "choose your favorite war criminal" point of view, it was difficult for Greens to accept that their preferred side is so cartoonishly evil - obviously bias must have been involved, even though the only pro-Black narrator of F&B is Mushroom, the rest are Greens. The maester's anti-Targaryen bias, however, manages to sneak in and mess with the reader's balance, causing said cognitive dissonance. It's hard to deal with it as a reader, let alone as a showrunner who's trying to adapt a story in which not everything is set in stone. They incorrectly assumed that, because they are constantly forced to question what is happening in the story, the bias is with the underlying idea that there was a correct side. As such, they assumed that all the inconsistencies result from maesters not choosing to view it that way. Ryan Condal repeatedly stated that he does not want watchers to pick sides, while George RR Martin embraces it and even encourages it (and I think that he himself has picked the Blacks). Such is our nature as human beings. So they decided that they have to balance the scales. Because Greens are poorly developed, they added more characterization for them that contradicts their book personas (abused child bride meow meow Alicent who is clueless about the plans that in the books she herself set in motion, for example) while simultaneously taking the characterization AWAY from team Black members. Rhaena and Baela barely have any lines, and though this may be the case of simple racism, it's pretty telling that they ignored the fact that Baela is tomboyish and has short hair. Rheanyra herself is so toned down that she does not resemble her book counterpart in the slightest, making her seem weak, stupid and undecided. Daemon straight up becomes a villain and a wife murderer rather than a throughoutly gray character (book!Rhea Royce unambiguously dies after a hawking accident while Daemon is still fighting in the Stepstones); that's because Team Black was in a desperate need for a corrupting influence in order to balance the scales. But some Greens aren't spared from this treatment either. Otto is made much worse than he was in the books, he straight up pimps out his teenage daughter so that he can elevate House Hightower. While Aegon is also a sex pest in the books, showing him openly rape a lowborn woman was a risky decision (as was the not very subtle implication that he rapes Helaena as well); not to mention that the child fighting pits come from Mushroom, whose entire gimmick is making shit up. So neither side is really spared from being villified and whitewashed, depending on whom we look. The showrunners were fully committed to making choosing sides a confusing process, making the cognitive dissonance of this story to be even stronger. This is why they aren't really biased for or against anyone.

#asoiaf asks to me #hotd characterization #rhaenys targaryen #rhaenys targaryen (aemon's daughter) #rhaenys targaryen's characterization (meleys' rider) #hotd episode 9 #hotd inconsistencies #alicent's characterization #alicent hightower #the greens #hotd #hotd critical #hotd writing #hotd comment

[15-lizards]

Just for fun: maybe a show of how both Aemma Arryn and Alicent Hightower would affect the court fashion by being from the Vale and Reach, respectably?

Oooh that sounds fun let’s do it!!

I believe in Burgundian dresses in the Vale supremacy. It just fits the vibe also fur!!! Very important no? Just overall a style that fits that elegant upper class vibe of the Eyrie before the dance, which Aemma grew up in. Big headdresses are the staple of every outfit, especially the hennin cone with a gauzy veil draped around. A very gentle, almost Virginia kind of fashion that Aemma grows up wearing and brings to Kings Landing when she becomes queen

After a while in kings landing, this Eyrie fashion has adapted to the city. The basic cut of the gown is still the same, but seems to be a bit more complex and layered and sluttier. Ostentatious rich women take the idea of that elegant Eyrie fashion and just gild and glitz the shit out of it. OR a woman might downplay the gown and dress simply and just really heighten the look and size of the headdress, making it increasingly impractical (think the mid 1700s in France).

During Alicents early reign, she hasn’t garnered any influence or personal style yet and she’s still a young girl trying her best to get into the good graces of her old fart husband so she probably still resembles Aemma in her clothing. Modest and gentle without all of the grandiosity of the other women of kings landing, because of both the faith at Oldtown and her need to blend in as best she can. Eventually people start following in her footsteps, and more subdued and muted styles become popular, with a natural waist and bust coming back, as well as soft natural coloring

Once Alicent is firmly established, I think she starts to dress for piousness. Long sleeves that don’t billow out, skirts that cover everything and more, natural outline of the body, modest headdresses. And once the war begins this naturally starts to take hold throughout the city, as noblewomen go into mourning and also start to realize the excess they used to have cannot be afforded anymore.

#asoiaf #asoiaf hair and clothing #I know this kinda directly contradicts my fashion druring the dance ideas but #take it up with my lawyer #also yes I’m using show Alicent characterization here #you can also take that up with my lawyer

[idkjustletmescroll]

It's really weird how a lot of people in the got/hotd fandom don't seem to accept how grey grrm's characters are? Idk maybe I'm just on the wrong side of tumblr/tiktok, but...several things can be true at once.

Cersei Lannister can be an abuser, a killer, AND A VICTIM. She can love her children AND have deeply unhealthy relationships with them. Alicent Hightower can resent her children, have unhealthy relationships with them, have no idea how to parent them, and still love them. Rhaenyra can be the rightful heir to the iron throne with good intentions, and still seemingly have no idea how to rule. Viserys can make Rhaenyra his heir and talk about how much he loves Aemma and be a sh*t dad and partner. Sansa Stark can be mean to Arya and also a child whose behavior is reinforced by a guardian (the septa, who she is told to obey and learn from). Joffrey Baratheon can be a sadist who had to die for the good of the realm, and still a child. Robert can be funny and Ned's friend, and a terrible father and husband. Ned and Catelyn can be some of the best parents on either show, love each other and their kids, do everything for each other and their kids, and still have failed to prepare their children for the world they live in. The whole POINT of grrm's characters is that they're not good or evil, they're not black or white, their cruelty has a reason and they are all functioning within an inherently unjust society, and doing the best they can.

#alicent hightower #hotd #game of thrones #cersei lannister #sansa stark #rhaenyra targaryen #viserys targaryen #king viserys #ned stark #catelyn stark #joffrey baratheon #gray characteres

[lemonhemlock]

The truth about Alicent Hightower: why is she so disliked?

https://youtu.be/t9HjamrAMfU?si=QpoUMPQQSuTWmovz

I found this video on YouTube. I didn't watch the video, but I did read the comments, and many of them were negative toward Alicent. I want to know your thoughts on this video.

The comments are negative towards Alicent because the creator's request for engagement consisted of asking her audience to share why they disliked Alicent. Though I do feel inclined to enquire myself: why are you asking me to react to this video if you haven't even watched it?

Many of these talking points I have already addressed in my lengthy meta posts over time:

There is a conflation of Alicent from the books and Alicent from the show. Show!Alicent was not sent to comfort Jaehaerys and is more innocent and trusting that book!Alicent because she is younger.

Alicent is hated by many viewers for "seducing" Viserys. The creator says she doesn't and denies that people blame her for that, but they do. It's an easily-verified, observable reality and, thus, a strange thing to even say.

Jace/Helaena is not an advantageous marriage for the greens.

"Why was Otto spying on Rhaenyra?" It's literally his job. "He deserved to be fired". It's literally his job to be spying on everyone and report the information back to the King.

The Hightowers are faced with the fait accompli that Aegon will not be named heir. They went into the marriage fully believing that Alicent's sons would overtake Rhaenyra in the line of succession, as was the social norm.

It ultimately comes back to what I was talking about these last few days. This is the result of a conflation of several factors:

ignorance about what medieval social and economic arrangements actually were (what is feudalism? what is manorialism?);

stubbornly clinging to the notion that Westeros is an absolutist monarchy and that "the King's word is law";

downplaying the bastard issue, i.e. refusing to acknowledge how concerning the division of the marital estate was to inheritors and blaming it entirely on misogyny-fueled sex-negativism;

having no concept of what common law is or how it functions.

People can't let go of this image that Westeros is a capitalist modern state with an authoritarian leader (the King). And dragons. (It's Russia, basically. The dragons are bears).

Most of TB's discourse contains some combination of the above, which is why, honestly, at this point, if people are so invested in still talking about this, I would truly suggest a primer in medieval history, because this is getting ridiculous. These reasonings are just not rooted in a tangible basis of reality and trying to engage with them is like fighting windmills.

In the same vein, I wish people would stop bringing up the point of Alicent misunderstanding that Viserys changed his mind on his death bed. I get it, you think it's a dumb argument, but, lo' and behold, it's actually lifted straight from real history and, to the shock of thousands of Twitter users, it worked. What now? Stephen of Blois truly is crying in the afterlife because you think this little trick of his lacks realism. 🤦‍♀️

#they don't understand how much modern institutions shape their daily lives #institutions which are totally absent from westeros #it doesn't even have a parliament #'pass a law' pfffff #anti rhaenyra targaryen #anti team black #alicent hightower #there is also the refusal to accept that rhaenyra has any power over her own situation #and that she also could have made better choices both for herself and for the realm #'what was rhaenyra to do?' renounce being heir! or be smarter about it! #girl pick a struggle fr #ask #anon #also. like. you have to laugh at OP's characterization of rhaenyra being groomed by daemon during their night out in town #& then coercing criston into sex #as 'her living her best life'

[americanprometheuss]

i love it when the voices start speaking to me and they make me realize that the reason i sympathize and feel bad for alicent’s children is because i AM alicent’s children.

i’m the child being overlooked in favor of someone else, the ones who have to watch their mother beg for their father to realize that his inactions are harming me. the one being scorned and sneered upon while being told that my father figure isn’t my father, he’s my authority figure, the one who holds the rod instead of being my nurturer.

i’m aemond after he loses his eye, and is watching alicent beg for viserys to do something to help him. i’m aegon slowly wasting away as he tries to live up to the mantle of king that was forced on his head. i’m heleana who speaks of the misfortunes of her family but is ignored and pitied.

i feel like every person who has been emotionally, physically, mentally, etc. abused in their childhood can find pieces of themselves within each of the green children because they’re just the beacon and poster child of how the same abuse can make so many different types of adults.

#idk….i got kinda self aware tonight and i don’t think i like it but fuck it we ball #grrm idk if you were actively thinking about that while you were characterizing alicent’s children but i applaud you #i can literally sit here for hours and talk about how alicent being abused shaped her into becoming an abuser and how her abuse toward her #abuse toward her children made them the way they are #hotd #aegon ii targaryen #aemond targaryen #heleana targaryen #dance of the dragons #asoisf #team green #alicent hightower #rhaenyra targaryen #daemon targaryen

[rhaenin-time]

The changes the writers made to Alicent, Aemond, and Aegon have too many modern connotations and it disturbs me that so many people find those connotations "sympathetic."

#and my GAWD do their fans get angry when you point out those very glaring and intentional connotations #no it's not insensitive to point out that Aemond is a shoot shooter when his main trait is aggrieved entitlement #No it's not insensitive to point out that Alicent is a Woman for Trump and a White Woman™ when that's how she was intentionally written #Do I think that it's overly simplistic writing? Yes. But that doesn't change the fact that that's how the story is written #asoiaf #hotd #hotd critical #team black #asoiaf fandom #fire and blood #anti team green #hotd sexism #I will defend people who argue that Cole is not an incel though. He's not. He's actually something worse #And his characterization is actually better rooted in the European Medieval time period than the others - to an extent

[retrovrt]

made a white rabbit design and now i cant stop thinking about cheshire, him, and jervis

#jervis tetch #cheshire #cheshire cat #the white rabbit #white rabbit #alice in wonderland #batman #oh god i love them #am i butchering the source material? perhaps #do i care? yes actually #deciding that cheshire and the white rabbit were ex lovers #its not based on anything im just going looney #mad hatter #yeah cheshire and the white rabbit are part of jervis's delusions #this is just how they are characterized in his mind #retroverse

[youraverageaemondsimp]

Just letting y'all know that my blog is not a safe space for alicent hightower haters because I personally believe that you all are stupid as hell for blaming her over a situation she had no control over and for the actions of the men around her which THEY themselves committed.

And just because Alicent played into the patriarchy doesn't make her any less of a victim of the oppression she faces as a woman herself, she's just trying to survive.

"Her decisions are dumb" Once again, she's just trying to survive as best as she can, I want you to live life exactly the same as she lived, same era, same rules, same father, same husband and same children, same scenarios, same paranoia she's feeling and tell me how you'd handle it.

Ik some might argue that she doesn't stay like her father's pawn anymore and she chooses the things she does later on, but when exactly was that? oh yeah so fucking deep into the game and in a tight situation where retreating isn't an option anymore, a situation where the the knife is directly placed on your throat while your backed up against the wall, what will you do? strike or back away? oh wait you can't back away cause THERE'S A FUCKING WALL.

I usually don't get worked up over it because it's just a silly little show and doesn't matter which team you support because the events aren't going to change and neither is it going to impact my real life, but i got an ask telling me that she's basically a cunt and that she started the dance and she is to be blamed for it 💀💀

And before you use "oh my god she hates rhaenyra" as a counter attack lemme just tell you I don't hate her, I don't hate women, because once again, rhaenyra is a victim of a situation herself, she and alicent are literally just both the sides of the same coin.

Normalize blaming men especially otto and viserys

#mae rambles #alicent hightower #sorry for the rant can't stand people hating on women who are victims themselves #mae rants #clarifying that this is about show alicent and NOT book alicent cause book alicent doesn't have much characterization

[bohemian-nights]

Alicent and Rhaenyra still holding on to their friendship after episode 7 is (you could even make an argument for anywhere past episode 5) is pathetic. By the time episode 10 roles around these are women who have both threatened harm to each others children (Rhaenyra calling for Aemond to be “sharply questioned” and Alicent calling for the eye of Lucerys). Book!Alicent (and Book!Rhaenyra) would never. And to be honest I’m not sure why any self-respecting person

would want to rekindle any sort of relationship with someone who has actively threatened harm to their respective children.

Next season I would like to see more Book!Alicent especially after after Blood&Cheese. I would also like some more agency. Alicent not knowing that they were planning on usurping Rhaenyra until after Viserys death was pathetic. While it’s true that in different parts of her life Alicent has been the victim it seems as if (progressively more with each time skip) that’s the only or rather major characterization trait the writers are focusing on.

When it comes to Rhaenyra I would like to solely see Book!Rhaenyra. One of the few things I like about Book!Rhaenyra is that at least she knew she had some sort of power. Oftentimes people like to compare Alicent to Cersei but I would compare Rhaenyra to Cersei. Cersei was a bad person who did a lot of bad things. Cersei knew what and who she was. She used her power and privilege to her benefit and her benefit alone. While Rhaenyra is her own person (just as Cersei is her own) I think it would be in the writers favor to lean into more of those traits for Rhaneyra that her book counterpart also already has.

I would like to see more characters (especially the female characters) besides Rhaenyra given at least some what consistent characterization.

It literally makes no sense. Like after what went down on Driftmark happened I would want nothing to do with you. There would be no trying to rekindle a friendship or whatever it was. No playing nice. You mess with my kid? You’re my enemy now.

That scene was the peak of their respective characters(they seem the most like their book counterparts) because by the next episode whatever development they had gets thrown out the window which is pretty jarring.

I get they have a history, but they should rightfully hate each other. The characterization just isn’t making sense. The writers just won’t let them move forward and show that these women are actually powerful women which is the opposite of what they are claiming to do 🫠

I agree with you that they need to scale back on trying to make Alicent look like she doesn’t know what’s going on at every turn and yeah Rhaenyra is much more like Cersei than Alicent(just way less interesting to me, but still extremely delusional).

It’s pretty clear at this point the writers have a problem showing that while a woman can be abused or a “victim of the patriarchy” she can still have agency and exert a version of power especially over those who are beneath her.

Book!Alicent had to tow the line of Viserys wishes, but the moment he was on deaths doors she had everything in order. She wasted no time in taking control of the situation. She wasn’t clueless. She wasn’t shocked by what was happening. She was instrumental in crowning her son king. The show drops that in favor of how shes a lost puppy who’s shocked by what the men are doing and she just wants her bestie back.

Book!Rhaenyra knowns that she’s above it all, she can do whatever she wants cause she’s the exception, and she does exactly that. Adult show!Rhaenyra thinks she has 0 power(which is utterly stupid considering does whatever and daddy dearest covered her a** 24/7. If she truly had no power she wouldn’t do half the stuff she does). They are trying to make her a good girl who’s just been wronged, or at least Dany 2.0, when she’s not.

The book characterization needs to come out at this point because what’s happening now isn’t making any sense. Don’t hold back and white wash these characters to make them “likable” or “sympathetic.”Show who they really are. Let them have agency.

#alicent characterization #Rhaenyra characterization #hotd ask #house of the dragon #hotd #hotd spoilers #bnasks #bnask #alicent hightower #rhaenyra targaryen

[siliconcat]

watched Murder in Psuedo Paradise, which was really good and hooked me for the first like 10-12ish episodes up until around when the (horribly mischaracterized) Alice showed up and then I just got really confused, from then on out it wasn’t even a touhou fanwork anymore it was like it’s own thing. I can’t say it was good but it wasn’t completely bad? It just dragged out in the last third and felt like nothing was happening.

Art style was absolutely baller throughout and the main op is probably one of my favorite 2hu music videos ever tho

also satori is hooked up to a IV with a blend of opium and peach juice the whole time lol

Warning for rapid flashing colors at some points in the op, and major character death (and gore I guess?) in the series (like, a lot. So, so many people die)

#flashing #that being said I love Alice’s design in this but they did her so dirty…….. #i personally don’t think she is the DiPP serial killer bc it doesn’t align with zun modern characterization of her #and also she became a youkai by magic means not by hanging herself #though I do like to think she knows of the story and thus based her dolls around it #Youtube

[horizon-verizon]

I think that there is a line that can be crossed into straight up negligence from the disparity of intent vs how the scenes are written/what they convey within the context of other scenes.

You can definitely see a writer's intent through their work, but if they bungle their own techniques or if their lore's/premise's rationale is not logical or/nor consistent with their intent, then inevitably the effect of their writing is going to be different from their intent. And that will shape the message into a different entity of itself. Which happens in HotD, even though the writers wanted us to feel that:

Rhaenyra was being either rational or strong by her refusing to imprison Otto, being affected by Alicent's page, and not even thinking that the war she proposed to Daemon (epi 7) about...but then calls it "his" war (epi 10)...and the inconsistency has yielded so many different fan theories as to why she is like this in-universe-wise (from Daemon just trying to fortify the castle against any possible attacks to her trying to get Rhaenyra's non-conflict-having-self on her side) precisely b/c the writing is inconsistent and disallows the sort of rage to their Rhaenyra that in a person that actually helps to clear their mind

Alicent's motivations to attack Rhaenyra for years at the Red Keep, at first seemed to come from her hating that Rhaenyra for the act of sex itself, not the consequences Otto warns her of bc Alicent never actually says to Rhaenyra that she was angry at her for her kids' sake in that episode. We only have their confrontation, her fearing Rhaenyra lied/her talking to Cole, and her green dress "war" declaration later. If Rhaenyra had been found out without Otto lurking, wouldn't it be better for her son, as it makes him seem the "better" candidate, thus removing Rhaenyra as a threat to her kids? Then why does episode 4 Alicent get so angry? No, in episode 4, she's angry that Rhaenyra got to have sexual freedoms, as further supported by the contrast of her and Dameon vs Alicent and Viserys. In episode 8, after Rhaenyra mere apologizes for not seeing how Alicent has worked hard to "comfort" Viserys and run the castle (a Queen's duty), Alicent is ready to accept her as the next Queen and put aside her previous desperation/assurance that Rhaenyra is her children's inevitable enemy -> it reduces our ability to accept the depth of their supposedly close years-long bond and its dynamic from the get go. The relationship is supposed to underpin the emotional value of the entire show, but the writers have contradicted themselves every which way, in every scene and has never given us a real reasons why/how these two became friends wand why they ever valued each other in the first place

Perhaps all of these can be "fixed" with more scenes, longer scenes, less time jumps...but at the core:

the writers thought that what they presented as the final scene/the HotD canon universe was enough to establish their characters when it wasn't...we are forced to only access these published scenes as they are the only HotD "canon", the rest is subject to built on assumption of consequences and more liable to headcanons because we do not see specific actions in the time b/t jump cuts that lead to situations of the next episode

the biggest problem is that they think that taking away these women's ambition, removing a lot of their female AND male support, and removing their expressed fieryness that makes up a large part of their initial enjoyability -- you can't argue against sexism while using sexist imagery, logic, etc., which HotD has done

#writing #hotd critical #rhaenyra and alicent #rhaenyra targaryen #alicent hightower #alicent's characterization #rhaenyra's characterization #hotd #house of the dragon

[navree]

I would listen to you talk for hours about Alicent’s relationship with her children 🧎🏻‍♀️

( @kitsnicket you open a dangerous door my friend, i am a notorious monologuer.)

the thing is, alicent becomes a mother young. she has her first child at, maximum, sixteen years old, then her second at eighteen, and then her third at either nineteen or twenty. this is also a time when she doesn't have a lot, if any friends her own age, or at all really, her relationship with her husband is basically that of patient and nurse with a side offering of marital rape on the side, and she has a very flimsy support structure in the form of her father, that gets yanked out from under her and remains kept away from her for the next decade. aegon and helaena and aemond were, for a time and during their own formative years, all she had. alicent's closest relationships (absenting criston cole, but that's a different one due to the class dynamics and power differentials), the longest and most enduring, are with her kids.

and they each have a very different dynamic with her.

aemond's is the most straightforward, he appears to just be utterly devoted to her and she clearly adores him with little complication into that feeling. he goes to her immediately for comfort after he's bullied, and he appears to be the one who's retained most of her influence in their upbringing (i see you aemond, with your devout clasped hands while your mom prays, perfect lil angel asking the seven to preemptively forgive you for the ten million war crimes in the riverlands, i love him). alicent is also his fiercest defender during the most pivotal moment in his life, the night he lost an eye. that entire scene is filled with aemond's half sister asking that he be tortured for information, his dad caring more about insults to his nephews than to the fact that he lost an eye, and the rest of court, including his own full siblings, too scared of the situation to speak up. alicent is the only one fighting for him, alicent is the only one asking for any sort of justice or restitution, alicent literally steals a knife from the king's person to go attack his named successor in a crowded room. that has to have stuck with him over the years, especially during as long an arduous a process as recovering from a grievous injury and learning to live with a lifelong disability you got overnight. at storm's end, aemond is clearly seething with unspoken rage over what happened to him and what he felt he was denied and how he was treated, but it's also for his mother. does he say he wants luke's eye for himself? no, he says he wants to give it to his mother as a present, as a reminder to when she tried to take luke's eye for him all those years ago, the only person standing up for him, and he wants to pay that forward. there is probably no one alive aemond loves more than alicent, and alicent again clearly loves him too, is close enough to him not only try to defend and shield him where she can, but to respect him when he makes his own choices (like going to find aegon) and to trust in him as a person even as she remains devoted to him as a mother (which is why i'm going to lose it if they keep to the book's report that alicent was deeply horrified by what happened to luke, because i'm supposed to be fine with aemond, who adores his mother, faced with her disappointment and fear when it was literally an accident? i'm not gonna be fine).

alicent's relationship with helaena is more complicated, mostly because the show hasn't really done much with helaena beyond some autism coding and making her a dragondreamer, so it's kind of hard to interpret personal relationships for someone who doesn't have a lot of personality written down yet. but alicent, again as with all her children, clearly cares for and loves her daughter, and there is likely something there in the fact that helaena is her only daughter, and mother daughter bonds and all of that. it's also very interesting that when helaena is a baby, alicent is still taking an active role in the nurturing process. we see her twice, in episode 4 and episode 5, comforting a crying helaena as best as she can, in close enough succession to be inferred as a common occurrence. and alicent doesn't seem particularly enthused by this, she's very disengaged as she's doing it and doesn't try anything like shushing or humming or distraction or anything beyond just holding and bouncing her, but this is a queen with an army of nursemaids and servants at her disposal, who we've seen take care of both her toddler and helaena herself. and yet still, alicent is trying to connect with her child as she raises her. we also see that alicent continues that well beyond babyhood, at least attempting to have an interest in helaena's bug fascination, asking her questions about it (engaging with your neurodivergent child's special interest, we love a #ally), trying to continue that connection with her, even though helaena isn't the most receptive due to the apparent autism coding. we also see that alicent is much more protective of helaena than she is of her sons. we don't necessarily know why, because again lack of characterization, but it could be a combination of both just helaena being more sensitive (such as immediately turning to hold her when daemon kills vaemond and helaena has a bad reaction) and her maternal devotion. in the dragonpit, which I Will Get To, alicent is obviously focused on aegon, who she thinks rhaenys sees as the primary threat/target, but she still makes sure criston gets helaena and tries to get her to safety, even though helaena is a dragonrider in her own right and doubtless in less danger than criston or alicent herself. it is, in alicent's mind, potentially one of her final acts alive, and it is to make sure that, if she can, her daughter is safe, not entirely different to wanting to personally comfort helaena as a baby. and i do hope they explore that dynamic more in season 2, particularly after the blood and cheese debacle, which happens in alicent's chambers as helaena is bringing the kids to visit alicent, with helaena and alicent being the adults most affected by it, what with alicent having been physically assaulted in her own rooms and helaena, her only daughter, her own child, enduring the worst psychological torture imaginable. i wish i could say more about how helaena feels about alicent in turn, but again, we don't get anything from helaena really, though i'm making the executive decision that she clearly loves her mom as both mother and protector, and clearly wants to communicate with her, as i interpreted her anger and shrugging off of alicent's touch during episode 9 to be more frustration that alicent isn't understanding her warnings rather than an aversion to alicent, given that she accepts alicent's embrace the day before in episode 8.

alicent's most complicated relationship, but also the one that makes me gnash my teeth the most tbf, is with aegon. this is for a lot of reasons, not one of least being that aegon is a bit of a shit. don't ask me why this was a conversation we ever had, but my mom once told me that she would always love me, even if i killed someone in cold blood, but that she'd be upset and disappointed with me even while loving me. alicent can be deeply disappointed and upset with her son's actions and how he behaves towards nearly everyone he knows, and still love him anyway. which she does. alicent clearly loves him, is clearly as involved in raising him as she is with helaena and likely aemond (we see her being as active a mother with aegon as she is with helaena in episode 3, just with more limitations due to her being heavily pregnant at the time), but her love for aegon is also tinged with a load of other emotions. disappointment in what he does, for one, but also a very real fear. aegon is a two year old when otto ingrains into alicent's head (which rhaenyra accidentally reinforces through the lying debacle) that aegon is at risk of being murdered in cold blood the second rhaenyra ascends the throne. aegon's entire life is passed with alicent tamping down utter fear that if she doesn't prepare him enough, if she doesn't get him ready fast enough, he, her firstborn, for a while the only thing she had, will be killed. and what's horrible is aegon interprets that fear as him letting her down! we as kids are not necessarily the most emotionally intelligent where our parents are concerned, and aegon doesn't seem to see that this is terror borne out of love for him and desire to see him safe, he just sees him failing his mother's expectations and what she wants from him over and over and over again. aegon's a character i can do a whole separate thing about himself, because he's got no simple relationships and he's so fucked up in so many ways, but this is a deeply wounded person who, among many other things, does not believe that his parents love him, and that this may even make him unlovable, even though he loves her. when aemond decides to implicate aegon in the strong bastards thing, rather than his mother (again, because aemond is a giant momma's boy and isn't going to do anything to hurt her), aegon is also asked where he heard it from. does he say he heard it from alicent? does he throw her under the bus, at viserys's mercy? no, he lies, he protects her and doesn't name her as the originator and instead goes on to point out that two plus two equals four to his dipshit dad. aegon also has his own influences from his mother, he is hiding in a literal sept, the house of worship that his deeply religious mother often frequents, and the first person he asks for isn't his grandfather, the king's hand, it isn't even his dad who he's not sure is dead yet, it's alicent. he literally says "i want my mother". later, in the dragonpit, if you look closely, when alicent goes in front of aegon, he puts his arm in front of her, as if he's about to try and protect her himself or shove her back. alicent is the one who has to move his hand away from in front to behind her, it's why she's holding onto his wrist for the remainder of the shot. because as much as aegon clearly loves his mother, wants to do right by her, wants to protect her and be close to her, he also wants her to love him in return. and alicent does. alicent has loved him all of his life, and when he puts it to her bluntly, when he bears himself to her in a way we haven't seen him do the entire show and asks whether or not she does, all she can say is "you imbecile" because to her, it's a given. there is no conflict, or question there like there is for aegon. of course she loves you, you imbecile. she goes to stand up to a dragon for you. and not only does she do that just to protect him, but to at the very least make sure that if rhaenys does let loose, aegon won't die alone, that he'll have his mother by his side, holding his hand, being there for him and with him.

it's a fraught relationship on both sides, due to differences in personalities and the way they've both been screwed up (alicent having had aegon so young and dealing with a good chunk of traumas, aegon in turn feeling unloved and unlovable and also having enough genre awareness to hate his life) and how they've coped and how that's mutated their interactions over the course of aegon's life. and there's bitterness and recriminations and feelings of not being good enough and feelings of disappointment and failure and abandonment and wants for more than what they're getting, but there is a deep and unending love there, over everything. aegon loves his mother fiercely, in spite of himself and his demons, and alicent in turn loves him just as much as she does her other children, in spite of all the stuff that's coming with it.

there's obviously more to all of this than just love for her kids. alicent is a mother in a deeply patriarchal and misogynistic society that will always value the kids she's birthed (especially the sons) rather than her own person. and alicent has spent nearly her entire marriage hearing about how she needs to support aegon, prepare for aegon to rule, seat aegon on the throne, and this idea of "support your children at the expense of yourself" has bled over into her relationships with helaena and aemond as well, like having criston protect helaena rather than herself, and putting herself at risk of imprisonment and execution trying to defend aemond. and there is the fact that alicent is very isolated, especially in her youth, and therefore likely latched onto her relationship with her children as her saving grace, while the kids in turn latched onto her because she's the only parent to have shown them love and care and devotion or even a basic desire to parent them, since viserys vacillates between too sick and not giving a shit about any of them. but that doesn't mean she doesn't love them. that doesn't mean she wouldn't die for them, alicent at this point is clearly someone who would gladly take a wound so that the kids won't have to.

and as the dance progresses, these relationships are actually going to be pretty important to a lot of the character motivations of alicent and aegon and helaena and aemond (and daeron i'm assuming but i can't wax poetic about someone the show definitely forgot existed until season one was already airing). the love they have for each other, and the dynamics each of them have with each other, is going to be absolutely vital, both from a storytelling perspective, and for them as characters within their own narratives and personalities.

#personal #answered #kitsnicket #house of the dragon #long post for ts #the way this got so DISGUSTINGLY long i'm so sorry #you're playing a dangerous game beloved #i've got a lot of feelings about these characters #because i want the show on tv to be the show i have in my head based on the characterizations #and i am notorious for my ability to talk #get me started on any topic i have feelings about and i can go on basically forever or until my voice gives out #the way i had to break up the aegon stuff because i reached the character limit tumblr has per paragraph #did you know they have that #because talking about alicent and aegon (two characters i couldn't STAND in the book) helped me know that #sincerest apologies #i’ve also got a lot of headcanons but that is for another time #this is just interpretation and analysis and scratching at the wall paper #because i have a light homework load this week

[elizabeth-dicewielder]

Which adaptation of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland do you consider to be the best and which is the worst?

Okay well first this really depends on what you want out of an adaptation. Are you looking for a faithful retelling of the book? Are you looking for a story centered on a different character? Are you looking for a different story set in the same world? Are you looking to completely alter the story?

In my opinion, the most faithful adaptation is easily the 1951 animated Disney movie “Alice in Wonderland.” There are definitely some differences between the book and the movie: they left out some scenes, there are a couple scenes they threw in from Through the Looking Glass, and I feel like Alice was somewhat less obviously intelligent, but most of those I feel are just going to happen when you transition mediums. The book is not a cohesive story in any way, which doesn’t work as well in a movie format, so it makes sense why they moved stuff around. I think they also chose to focus on the most iconic characters from the book duology, which I can respect. And then in terms of Alice’s intelligence, so much of that in the book comes from Alice’s thought processes and the narrator’s commentary, which are difficult to translate into film. And these also don’t bother me so much especially because the movie does not claim to be the original book. It is not “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland,” it is “Alice in Wonderland,” a summary of the two.

It also has little aspects of the books that it left out thrown into the scenery here and there, blink and you miss it if you aren’t familiar with the books types of things. But fundamentally the movie maintains the right vibes and story of the book. Wonderland is, at its core, whimsical. Confusing and fucked up and dangerous, sure, but whimsical and colorful. Alice is the only one making any sense and she knows it. She’s young and self-assured, and even when she’s crying and freaked out she picks herself up and moves on. And the way that she talks to herself is very consistent with the book. Overall dialogue, setting, characters, and spirit are an incredibly faithful and entertaining adaptation of the book. So yeah, 1950s Disney Alice in Wonderland is easily the best.

And then. And then there’s the Tim Burton movies.

Okay if you like the Tim Burton movies, go off. I know many people enjoy them. But they are an absolutely wretched adaptation.

I haven’t seen them in a while (thank god) but this is just the shit off the top of my head:

Why is the lighting and coloring so dark??? They removed all the whimsy!! This world is not Wonderland. It is completely unrecognizable.

The Mad Hatter is too sane and the Cheshire Cat is too creepy.

WHY are the RED QUEEN and the QUEEN OF HEARTS the SAME PERSON??? Does Tim Burton not know the difference between CARDS and CHESS????? This particular point actually infuriates me so much, particularly because it is a complete character assassination of the Red Queen. Wtf is this weird war bullshit. The Red Queen and the White Queen are FRIENDS. And they make Alice a queen with them! They invite her to tea and the three queens have tea together. This is just… so egregious. No other character is so horribly misrepresented.

I personally think the concept of Jabberwocky being a prophecy is a little weird and unnecessary, it’s just a silly little poem that takes up like two pages of Through the Looking Glass, but the fact that they called the monster “the Jabberwocky” rather than “the Jabberwock” is actually unforgivable. It’s “Beware the Jabberwock, my son,” not “Beware the Jabberwocky, my son,” that completely ruins the rhythm of the poem. It’s like calling Odysseus “Odyssey” the entire book. That’s just such a stupid, obvious, and easily avoidable mistake. Like. There’s no way they even read the fucking book.

I’m generally all for feminist retellings of stories, but firstly, that was awful execution, and secondly, it completely distracts from the actual theme of Wonderland. Wonderland is supposed to be a child’s interpretation of the adult world. Everything is weird and fucked up and overwhelming with completely arbitrary rules that no one will explain, and you have to fight to make your voice heard. People tell you that you don’t know the shit you actually do know, and the stuff you learned in school isn’t actually helping you. And abandoning that theme does the world and original story an incredible disservice. Alice is not mistreated in Wonderland because she is a girl, Alice is mistreated in Wonderland because she is a child. And that message is important. There are a lot of stories about acknowledging women’s intelligence and capabilities. There aren’t a lot of stories about acknowledging children’s intelligence and capabilities. I personally think it’s fucked up that they shifted the focus like that.

Overall the movies feel like the writer and director just grabbed all of the most recognizable elements of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass and threw it all together in half-hearted story that they knew would get them popularity and money without once thinking critically or even bothering to read the books.

Including a lot of elements from Through the Looking Glass and leaving out the White Knight’s song is criminal.

So those are my thoughts one those adaptations lol. Thank you for the ask!! Read the books if you haven’t, they’re really really fun

#asks #tysm!!!! #alice in wonderland #alice’s adventures in wonderland #through the looking glass #i also really like once upon a time and once upon a time in wonderland’s interpretation of wonderland #it’s not super faithful but that’s the entire point of the franchise so i’m cool with it #they also made alice’s characterization consistent with the book #which i don’t feel the movies did

[thesilverlady]

I'm not enough of a book purist to not being able to enjoy headcanons, crackships etc (as a matter of fact I do love them). But seeing newbies unironically and completely serious considering aemond to "trying to be the perfect son", or "heleana is the people's princess" or "rhaenyra is calm, collected and strategic", "Daemon is the family's clown, the agent of chaos" legit gives me a headache because they are nothing like that.

And I'm not talking about ppl writing fanfics with this type of characterization, but ppl legit having takes based on the terrible portrayal of the show. And even when they go to read f&b they still have the image the show gave them because they don't seem capable of letting go.

it just feels like Jon Snow/Daenerys Targaryen character assassination all of again.

There are so many people who consider Jon to be basically ned 2.0 and Dany a mad queen-girlboss-slay

I just wish we could seperate books from adaptations. That's all

#don't be a jerk i'm just venting ✌️ #anti hotd #I know the greens had 2% of actual characterization so fans are now making their own hcs but #my issue is they slowly legit believe them to be canon #rhaenyra was not chill. She was emotional. thought first with her heart. could be immature and had temper #aegon was not a loser crybaby. he was spoiled. had freedom to do as he wished and was simply lazy and unmotivated #aemond was already a psycho before his eye loss. and was obsessed with proving himself. he gave 0 shit about his fam #helaena only had 1 line in f&b and even that gives her more personality than the cringe show version #alicent was not a child bride. she was an ambitious woman. a big hypocrite who was obsessed w Rhaenyra and had beef with her since rhaenyra #Viserys was a girl dad and loved rhaenyra and heleana. he also loved alicent very much. aegon and aemond were simply red flags #daemon was not a deadbeat dad. he was ruthless and he wanted the throne and power. his marriage with Laena softened him a lot #and he became dedicated to his fam to the point he killed himself to take out Rhaenyra's biggest threat aka vhagar (not aemond) #otto was not a warm grandfather. he only cared about gaining power and he gave 0 shit about what his grandkids could be going through #grrm does write grey characters but he also writes ones who are meant to be interpreted as good/evil #and the greens are very obvious the antagonists of the dance #I'm not saying you shouldn't like them but fandom should stop trying to rewrite f&b with their hcs #people enjoy joffrey and ramsey but no soul says they were victims #f&b meta #hotd meta #anti ryan condal #Ryan will pay for his crimes

[universitypenguin]

Do you think a mc needs to be likeable? The obvious answer should be no but then there are characters that just makes you go "ugh! They are so unbearable, I don't want to read this anymore!"

@ktficworld Here's my opinion: your character needs to be likable in comparison to the other people around them.

A key example of this is the movie Pulp Fiction. To give you a brief summary, without too many spoilers, this movie centers around two unsympathetic characters, Jules and Vincent. These guys are violent gangsters but right from the jump, Quinten Tarantino humanizes them with casual dialogue. He also sets up a shadow of darkness that helps you see the lighter shades of Jules and Vincent against a backdrop of pitch blackness. The shadow is their boss who is immediately positioned in the storyline as being so much worse than the main characters who we’re experiencing the story through. Knowing there's someone worse than Jules and Vincent wandering around in this universe draws us closer to these horrible criminals without us even noticing the slight of hand that Tarantino used to bring it about.

This, in my opinion, is the secret to making an “unlikable” character likable: play them against someone much worse than they are. Your readers will immediately pick the lesser of two evils and begin to cheer for your anti-hero.

Another factor about unlikable characters is that they’re often very engaging. Many of them are witty and humorous, a trait we automatically love in anyone because laughter makes us feel good on a biochemical level. It’s also important to recognize that an engaging character and a sympathetic character are two different things. Engaging characters fascinate us, but they don’t have to be sympathetic. 

For example, let's consider another Tarantino character: Hans Landa.

I don’t think anyone was rooting for the Nazi Colonel in Inglorious Bastards, yet he was the most memorable character of the whole film. Why? Unpredictability. The audience was spellbound whenever Col. Landa was on screen because you couldn’t guess his next move. He was active, motivated, and always had a clever plan. Even though he was incredibly unsympathetic, the audience wanted to see how Col. Landa was going to maneuver and turn things around to outsmart the protagonists.

Unexpectedness is key to selling an unsympathetic character, at least in my expereince. If your audience doesn’t like the person they’re viewing, then the best alternative to likability is fascination. This is probably the same reason people read books about serial killers. Their behavior is so deviant from the norm that it’s fascinating to study them and figure out what might have been going on in their minds or how they ended up so broken in the first place. 

Creativity is another factor that makes us like the villain. We know Batman is going to race to stop the train from crashing when The Joker places a bomb to detonate under the bridge. He’s the hero and that’s what heroes do. In that respect, Batman has become predictable. But The Joker can never be predictable - not really. Sure, he's going to cause chaos and mayhem, but how?! What will he think of next?! It's a question that easily holds our attention. We need The Joker to be original and find new, interesting ways of tormenting Batman. The audience is engaging with him due to the promise of unexpectedness and creativity. These are two sides of the same coin but I like to draw the distinction between making your unsympathetic character creative and making them unexpected. You can have the latter without the former in some cases, and it will work quite well. Throwing in some real creativity to your villainous character certainly adds spice to the recipe though, if you ask me.

This brings me to a common problem that writers - especially newer writers - can find themselves facing when they start working on longer plots. It’s what Brandon Sanderson refers to as “the Villain problem.”

The issue is that audiences often love the villain character more than the hero and they identify with the villain more than they do with the hero, because the villain is more active than the hero. Oftentimes the villain is the one who drives the whole story forward and the hero is trotting along, always lagging one step behind, which can become painful to watch unless that character is someone we’re rooting for. Hence, why the hero has to be sympathetic.

Let me prove my thesis about the villain being more captivating than the hero. 

Case Study #3: Thor and Loki. Who did you like more in the first movie? Loki. At least in the first two movies, I'd say that everyone was 100% on team Loki because he was so much more fun than Thor. He was motivated, active, and had a vision of what he wanted to accomplish. Thor was the reactive character who had no other goal than to stop Loki or, as in the first movie, to uncover Loki’s plot against him. Then in the 3rd movie the writers took the trope of ‘predictability’ and managed to use it against Loki, which was incredibly clever. Also, it proves my point that predictability makes a character boring.

The additional layers to Loki’s motivation fleshed him out as a character and really made his actions believable and highly sympathetic. However, despite all the sympathy he built up I would still say that his active role in driving the plot forward was a huge reason audiences loved him.

Another thing we love about an unsympathetic character is what I just touched on with Loki - understanding them. We want to know what could drive someone to such great lengths. If their reasons are plausible enough - as Loki’s were - then the audience will fall in love. Then your “unsympathetic” character can be turned into a real hit. 

To return to the metaphor I used in the Pulp Fiction example, Odin is the dark shadow that falls over Loki’s shades of gray. His actions serve to highlight the injustice that Loki suffered and turns his evil deeds - invading earth, trying to kill his adorable himbo brother - into inconsequential trivialities that the audience brushes off as if they were nothing, because we can feel Loki’s pain. We’ve seen the lengths he’s gone to in expressing that pain, how motivated he is to get the justice he feels he’s owed, and then boom! The unsympathetic character who was cast in shades of gray is turned into a bonafide anti-hero.

I’ll list a few examples of “unsympathetic” characters for you to consider below. If you’d like to do a few case studies of your own and see how my analysis stacks up against the portrayal of these anti-heroes, I would love to hear your thoughts on them:

Jules and Vincent - Pulp Fiction (1994)

Loki - Thor (2011)

Walter White - Breaking Bad

The Joker - The Joker (2019) & The Dark Knight (2008)

Hans Landa - Inglorious Bastards (2009)

Anton Chigurh - No Country for Old Men (2007)

Darth Vader - Various Star Wars Films

Thank you for such a wonderful ask - I had a lot of fun putting together my response!

#penguin replies #alice gives advice #writing stuff #unsympathetic characters #anti heroes #characterization #writing advice #inglorious basterds #pulp fiction #loki #marvel loki #mcu loki #thor #thor odinson #writing characters

[spry-the-artist]

Ink Demonth Day 18th: Purpose

After getting stabbed, Susie finally realized that her purpose wasn’t to be an Angel, but to be seen as devil. After all, what good guy had so many people cheer for their death

#batim #ink demonth #the ink demonth #susie campbell #twisted alice #(she’s supposed to be floating in ink here but the way I shaded it looks like a loop so I’m fine with it not looking exactly like that) #(I do think Susie gets way too villanized in this fandom- especially compared to other characters who deserve it more #but I also think her killing Boris is a big reason why she’s seen that way - she’s not a nice person by any means #just wish she wasn’t consistently characterized as a villain when everyone else gets to be nice)