#rwby voume 8

[dextixer]

Volumes 7-8 - The conflict between Ironwood and the protagonists was one of morality, not insignificant details.

We had good 2-3 years of discussion about Ironwood, Atlas, the conflicts in those volumes and many other topics. Over time those discussions evolved, with more views, opinions and even details emerging to be used in arguments. At this point, there is little chance any side can convince each other of who was right or who is wrong, the opinions have mostly settled and while i have no doubt that eventually in the hiatus of V9 conversations will inevitably return here.

But this isn't about that. What i have noticed over time is while arguments have evolved and changed, i have also noticed that many of us arguing have been moving away from the core conflict of V7-V8, specifically the conflict between Ironwood and the Protagonists. Many of us started focusing on peripheral details, hypotheticals, possibilities. And i think in doing so we have partially moved away from the, well, main conflict, and that is one of morality.

What future?

I would first like to cover the problems of going too much into details, hypotheticals or possibilities. Very often whenever discussions of Ironwoods plan come up, they result in criticisms of the future of that plan.

Very often people bring up very convincing and logical arguments. What if Salem creates creatures that can reach Atlas in air? What if Atlas runs out of dust? What if the climate control of Atlas fails. Etc. All legitimate concerns, while some of them could be offered counter-arguments, this thread is not about them.

I think people also very often forget that the protagonists were not entirely opposed to Ironwoods plan as a whole, they had a problem with him choosing to abandon Mantle and to fly out before the evacuations are completed. So even if we argue that the protagonists were right, their choice would still result in the same problems as lined up above

What i have come to dislike over time however, is this seemingly innocuous accusation of Ironwood choosing to "Abandon Remnant" with Atlas flying into the air, and how that would "doom" remnant.

Even besides the fact that the protagonists seemingly had no problem with it, there is also an issue that many people ignore in my opinion, and that is that the survival of Atlas in the case of it abandoning Remnant.... It does not affect Remnant any differently. Whether Atlas abandons Remnant or is destroyed does not matter, because in both cases Remnant will be worse off.

What people forget is that Atlas rising into the air does not mean that Atlas is not able to be destroyed. What it means is that it would be destroyed later, and not now. Which for many, including me is a preferable option. Does it mean that everyone dies in the end? Sure. But Atlas dies the last at the very least in such a case. Because as we know, Atlas is destroyed now. Sure, the people survived, but people would have survived with Alas leaving too. Them being in Vacuo changes little, they are civilians, refugees, they will not be of any use in fighting against Salem anyway.

At the end of the day, none of these details. None of these arguments matter. Because even if Atlas is destroyed or leaves Remnant, nothing changes for Remnant. It either lives or dies the same as it would have.

The main conflict between Ironwood and the protagonists is not about that, it never was.

The Trolley Problem

The main conflict between the protagonists and Ironwood has always been that of morality, of an old philosophical problem, depicted as a trolley problem in modern times.

Ironwood wants to leave with Atlas and leave Mantle to die, he wants to do so because he wants to take no risks and have a guarantee of saving people in the face of Salem. Low risk - Low reward.

(Addendum - It is factual, and everyone can check the episode, the decision to abandon Mantle by Ironwood is only taken after the reveal of Salem being nearby due to the destroyed detection equipment, i am only clarifying this because some people in the fandom have spread genuine misinformation about this topic)

Team RWBY wants everyone to be evacuated to Atlas. They are willing to sacrifice everyone, for the ability to save everyone. High risk - High reward.

That is the main conflict here. It was never about the long term effects of Atlas leaving. The long term survival of Atlas etc. Its all about here and now, the survival of the people now, in that moment. Because Salem is coming, and everyone in this conflict knows this.

And inevitably, this alone is going to create a rift between two viewpoints, because they are exclusive. Some people will think that the actions of the protagonists are heroic, they want to save everyone even considering the risks involved. To those people Ironwoods decision might as well be monstrous, because he isn't even going to risk it. To others, Ironwoods decision is cold, but logical and makes sense, it is guaranteed to save people and has no risks involved, just a calculus of war. To those people the actions of the protagonists will seem like reckless, idealistic, maybe even selfish.

It is a matter of personality, personal philosophy and many other factors. This is the type of decision that very much depends on a person and their experiences. What is important is that people should be able to share these views without becoming hostile to one another, instead accepting a difference in opinion here.

And this applies to both fans and critics alike.

Personal attacks

The reason why it applies to both critics and fans alike is that this decision is often used to do many things. Do personal attacks, moral judgements, to virtue signal even. And i had a long time to think about this while not writing about this specific topics, and both sides have been fucking up on this front.

The critics, including me have often been of a derogatory opinion that many fans of RWBY are willing to accept the actions of the protagonists just because they ARE the protagonists, and that because of that the fans are willing to accept anything. While i believe that there are SOME people like that, the majority of fans are not, and such judgment is unfair. We critics cannot complain about being called fascists or anything else of this sort due to our positions on Ironwood and the turn around and do the same shit. There are valid reasons to support the protagonists, and we cannot ignore them or ridicule the MANY people that hold such an opinion.

Of course, the fans have their own problems with this. The aforementioned calls of fascism and the like have been common and still exist to this day. Or the idea that people are just defending Ironwoods actions because they "love" him blindly and the like. There are definitely people that overhate the protagonists and hold too much love for Ironwood, but majority of critics arent. What should be acknowledged in my opinion is that there are valid reasons to support and even like Ironwood that do not involved "misunderstanding of the writing" or some kind of moral deficiencies.

At the same time i have to note that people should be more careful when arguing about these kinds of topics in general, because very often people go off-topic or conflate the topics. For example, one can complain about the writing of the conflict without agreeing with either side. One can complain about how the protagonists are written without rejecting their ideas and the like. And one can express their opinions about how Ironwood has been written badly without feeling the "need" to defend all of his actions, like his V8 actions, as some have.

Ending Word

Now, i know i have kinda "promised" to not talk about Atlas and Ironwood again, but i wanted to make this one exception, because with Volume 9 on the horizon most of my content will have to switch to that Volume specifically in the foreseeable future due to only writing 2 threads a week. And i wanted to cover this specific topic for one last time, and in a more measured manner that i often do.

What i am trying to do with this thread is to basically, center the conversation back on the conflict that mattered the most in V7-8 and try to summarize the problems that occured during those discussions and how many points made did not really engage with the core issue.

This is kind of meant as... Bridging the gap between people and allowing them to understand each side of the conflict better, i have done this in the past, but eventually moved on from such content. Because with time, with this hiatus, i kinda got tired of the intense conflicts in the fandom. Arguments and discussions are fine, but they can get way too toxic way too soon.

I guess that is all for now, if anyone has anything to add, disagree or anything of the sort, everyone is welcome to do so.

#rwby #rwde #james ironwood #rwby voume 8 #rwby volume 7

[roz-ani]

Now this! This is interesting 👀

#I assume this is from the next episode??? #ruby rose #rwby #rwby spoilers #rwby8 spoilers #rwby volume 8 spoilers #rwby8 #rwby voume 8 #mine

[magnhild]

the misconceptions and mis-framing of penny’s death

i hesitated to make this post here for a good while; partially because i didn’t want to right when people’s emotions were heightened from the finale, partially because i’m sure some people are going to argue with me here and i’m not looking for a debate- if you don’t agree, please just scroll past.

i’ve made a large number of posts of penny’s death on twitter before, but some were based on my own heightened emotions, and they were all scattered over the course of a couple of weeks, so i’m making this psot to kind of gather all of those thoughts together, the most important ones, at least.

a quick disclaimer before we start- don’t mistake this as all being ‘oh you must just not really care that much about penny’. it couldn’t be more untrue. penny is a comfort character of mine, and a kin to boot. her second death was also the only in the show to really impact me, seeing as i watched v1-3 within a couple of days and didn’t give myself enough time to get attatched to any characters (and i just didn’t personally care for clover all that much). so, please don’t assuming this is coming from a place of not caring- it’s coming from the opposite.

i’ve tried my very hardest to look at what people are saying when they call her death inherintly bad writing, and honestly, i can easily see the validity to some of their points. there were a lot of flaws in the scene. 

it felt very rushed and blown-over, but then again, the entire episode did, and i have to wonder if it was done on purpose to emulate the chaos of war- you usually don’t get time to process anything. i mean, in rwby’s case, cinder was winning a fight, half of the characters that would’ve moured her were in the void, and the other half was in another kingdom. that left jaune, who had to focus on fighting cinder. it’s the same as when ruby wasn’t given time to mourn yang.

it also was weird to kill her off two episodes and probably only, like, 10-15 in-show minutes, after she’d been saved from death by gaining a human body. i think it would’ve happened anyway, given the many death flags she had, but i’d have expected- and liked- for them to wait a little longer. it would’ve been nice to see her adjust to having a human body, that’s for sure.

and i can fully agree that framing suicide as a good thing is not...a good thing. but, that brings me to the first point when i say ‘misconception’. because, penny’s dead wasn’t suicide at all. and i have no idea why people would frame it that way it the first place.

first of all, if we’re going to start labelling sacrifices as suicides, we’re going to have to say the same about pyrrha, vernal, and probably yang even though she didn’t actually die (but she thought she would). but being killed in a battle while protecting people...is sacrifice. penny asking jaune to kill her quicker, so that she could make sure the powers went to winter, was sacrifice. it also meant that she didn’t have to die slowly and painfully instead. penny was not suicidal. she has never been suicidal. to be suicidal is to want to die. penny never wanted to die- she only ever believed that it was her only choice to save the people she cared about and the city she was assigned to protect. in penny’s situation, i imagine you’d have a hard time finding another way out of all the siuations she’s been in too. it honestly feels like people are only calling it suicide instead of sacrifice to frame the scene as worse than it was, and that rubs me the wrong way.

and now you’re probably wondering, ‘but blaire, if she’d let jaune save her, she wouldn’t have died’. except that everyone who thinks that is missing one critical factor- she would have died anyway.

cinder’s blow was a killing one. from the moment she struck, she was already starting to steal the maiden’s power. a little longer, and she probably would have. but the one thing a lot of people seem to miss is that, even though jaune was there, he would not have been able to save her. firstly, his aura would have been extremely low at that point, considering we see it shatter in this episode; he probably would not have had enough to fill another person. he maybe could’ve sealed the wound a little before his aura would have broken, and then cinder would’ve just kept going with no problem.

but, even if he somehow had been able to- his aura recharges pretty quickly, after all- another critical factor is that there literally wasn’t time. penny said so herself. as i mentioned earlier, cinder was winning the fight agaisnt weiss. and we’ve seen how long it takes for jaune to heal someone. with weiss, he was lucky; there were several other people there to protect him and weiss while he did his work. with penny, there was only weiss. the moment cinder saw jaune healing her, that would’ve been it. with both of them defenselss, she probably would have killed jaune on the spot, given that weiss never would have been able to stop her on her own, and continued to take penny’s power. jaune or not, penny would have died. because penny didn’t kill herself, jaune didn’t kill her, cinder killed her. this was a murder.

bu then, what was all that about penny finally making her own choice? was it not to die?

no. of course it wasn’t. how i ever believed that myself at one point baffles me, because the more i look back, the more it’s very obvious that it wasn’t the case. it’s almost funny, actually, because my current self would’ve called myself from two weeks ago stupid for believeing such a thing. 

as i mentioned, penny has never wanted to die. and, in this case, it wasn’t even that she felt she had to for the greator good; she was dying anyway. her choice had nothing to do with death. her choice was who to pass the winter maiden’s power onto. because, if jaune hadn’t used his sword and severe’d cinder’s connection, the power very likely would have gone to cinder instead. she’d have the relics and both the fall and winter powers, and she’d have been near-unstoppable otherwise. 

even the wiki editors somehow saw this more clearly than i did, but like i said, it’s actually pretty obvious. once you get the weird idea that penny was suicidal out of your head, it’s clear to see that the choice she was talking about was to choose winter. and it’s a damn good thing she did, because winter probably would have died otherwise, and the evacuees would’ve been left defensless agaisnt the grimm- penny wouldn’t have been able to save them, as we’ve established.

the last thing that everyone should consider is that we literally have no idea what could happen next. it’s hard to write this off as anything when we don’t know what effect it will have on the story and characters, or- though it’s a stretch- if penny will even stay dead. she is, after all, based off a character who dies and is ressurected on a frequent basis. it was the same case with pyrrha and clover’s deaths; both were dismissed as bad writing based purely on assumptions, only for the auidence to find out later that both deaths actually served pretty reasonable purposes; pyrrhas’s to set the stakes and give all of the character’s a reason to keep fighting, and clover’s to demonstrate how loyal-to-a-fault the aceops were, and that ironwood had no problem sacrificing his own men.

in the end, to call this a good writing choice is probably a stretch. but, it wasn’t a bad one either. there were just too many factors that weren’t considered, or were misunderstood, and the aformentioned rushed feeling of the episode probably did not help with picking all this out. these are realizations it took me days and even weeks to come to. what’s instead important is to look at the situation from as many different angles as possible, and to keep in mind that we can’t really say anything for certain about the consequences of the event. nuance is important! espeiclaly in media critisism!

i genuinely hoped this has opened people’s eyes, even if they already didn’t consider it bad writing. seeing crwby, and this show, undermined so drastically, has been pretty hard for me to see, especially when some people are using it to call crwby morally wrong. i’ve even seen people say it was transphobic, because penny was trans-coded, while totally dismissing may, a canonically trans character. and i know that crwby are getting death threats again, which is bitterly disappointing and enraging. stop. and stop enabling this behaviour. 

also, if you’ve read over all of this and still don’t personally like the decision, that’s fine and understandable. i can easily see why people still wouldn’t. but i think it’s important to remember that not liking a writing deicsion doesn’t necceserily make it a bad one. kind of like how me not liking any of star wars doesn’t make it a bad franchise.

thanks for reading, and please remember to just...be nice. and if you’re still mourning penny’s death, which is understandable, remember to look after your mental health! she would want you to!

#rwby #rwby essay #rwby analysis #rwby v8 #blaire rambles #my writing #penny polendina #rwby voume 8 #tw penny's death #tw character death #tw suicide

[rebenoscar]

He is such an adorable brat

#rwby #rwby voume 8 #rwby volume 8 spoilers #Marrow Amin #winter schnee

[localboop]

RWBY V8C2

WHAT TO EXPECT TOMORROW FOR VOLUME 8 EPISODE 2 

( kinda spoilers )

- like 5 minutes before the end of episode 1 a soldier came to Ironwood saying “  Sir, the prisoners have arrived. They're being processed in stockade B. “   So r Qrow and Robyn in 1 cell? or 2? confusing but we should get them in V8C2 tomorrow. - Paula posted on twitter that were gonna see Fiona  - which means we will see team JOYRide evacuating Mantle - Adele ( Animator ) posted a photo of Yang ( Kinda drawn so we don’t know if its from the actual episode ) So uh yEa - Maybe they show us what Weiss’s idea was to getting up into Amity.

now these r just guesses: - ACE-OPS PLEASE - SCHNEES? WILLOW? - Get Cinder backstory crumbs PLEASE - UH MARROW? Also can Marrow join up with the fugitive gang please? he has 2 days-

- And I’m guessing that if we get May we get Happy Huntresses, like May using her semblance since Joanna told them about the crater so May might help them with taking them where their needed.

#rwby #rwby8 #rwby8 spoilers #rwbyv8 #rwby voume 8 #robyn hill #qrow branwen #fiona thyme #marrow amin #aceops #team joyride #team rnbw #marrowwebelieveinyou

[littlemisssquiggles]

Now that Rosegarden are separated, how do you think their relationship will develop now they’re separated like Bumblebee? I understand from your comments about the little prince that the character in the fairytale realises how much the Rose means to him when she’s gone, do you think Ruby will be in conflict with other characters who threaten Oscar and/vice versa? I really do NOT like the look of those flying with Oscar alone. And now cinder can tell Salem Ruby can fully use her eyes

Hi there Bou. Wellto be honest fam, Cinder wouldn’treally need to tell Salem about Ruby since she met her for herself. Let’s notforget that little scene in V7CH11 where with one mention of Salem revealingthat she was the one who killed Summer Rose, Salem reduced Ruby to a cryingmess unable to properly summon her power due to her conflicting emotions ofgrief over her mother’s death.

At the moment, Ruby isactually more susceptible to Salem and if she doesn’t figure out a way toturn this obvious weakness of hers into a strength with some more Silver Eyedtraining a la Maria Calavera then I’m afraid Ruby will only be making herselfan easier target for Salem to kill in her current state.

I highly doubt Ruby has mastered her Silver Eyes at all. Noway. Her inability to petrify the Leviathan back in V6 and summon her powers toaid the People of Mantle against the Mega Goliaths is definite proof that sheneeds to train.  

Here’s to her hopefully getting that chance with Maria againnow that she and the other heroes are wanted criminals of Atlas, needing to gointo hiding for a while. Possibly with the Happy Huntresses.

As for the Rosegarden relationship---well it wasn’t just thePrince who didn’t realize his feelings but his Rose too. According to the tale,the Rose didn’t realize how much she loved the Prince until he left their homeplanet. Unlike Bumblebee who had their whole angst sparked by Adam Taurus,things were actually left pretty light-hearted between Oscar and Ruby. As amatter of fact, their last shared moment together our smaller, more honest souls behaving like two kids---awkward yetadorable around each other.

I’m still waiting to see how Ruby would react to learningthat Oscar is gone. I’m assuming on her end, she’s going to probably spend mostof the next season believing that there is a chance to save Oscar since as faras Ruby (and by extension the rest of the hero team) is concerned, Oscar wasprobably apprehended and imprisoned in Atlas much like Robyn and Uncle Qrow.

No one on the hero team are aware of Oscar’s alleged “death”. They don’t know that the lastthing he did was go to see Ironwood before plummeting to his supposed “demise” after Ironwood shot him. Theheroes don’t know about this at all. All the more reason why I’m interested inseeing the groups’ reaction once they do find out that Oscar is “dead”. Particularly Ruby’s.

In another response post, I shared the possibility of Qrowbeing the harbinger of bad news to the team. @miggylovesrwby97 shared the theoryof Ironwood disclosing Oscar’s fate to Qrow as an intimidation tactic and Iquite liked that. So I figured that after our heroes work with the HappyHuntresses to free Robyn and Qrow from imprisonment, Qrow will inform them thatIronwood “killed” Oscar when asked about his whereabouts when he wasn’t freedalong with the two caged birds.

I’m curious to see how Ruby would take to learning that Oscaris “dead”. In the Little Princestory, it was said that rose hid her tears from her Prince when he chose toleave their planet. I can see that coming into play for Ruby when she hides hersadness over the thought of losing Oscar from the team.

Much like I’m anticipating Oscar’s journey across Solitaswith Oz to validate his growing love for Ruby and belief in her, I’m expectingthe same from Ruby where losing Oscar forces her to revaluate how she saw himwhich in turn makes her to come to see how much she valued his presence in herlife. It’s a conversation I can even picture Ruby sharing either with Maria orperhaps her sister Yang since, I can see Oscar’s “death” and Ruby’sinternalized grief over that correlating with how she handled her mother’spassing.

Basically I’m expecting this separation to force both Rubyand Oscar to reassess their respective relationship with one another---howeither saw the other eventually culminating in both seeing the true meaning intheir bond. It may just even be the final spark needed to light the flames of apotential romance between the two.

As for whether or not Ruby or Oscar will be in conflict withthose who threaten them? Absolutely. I believe that will play part of thedevelopment. It’d be interesting if on either side, the Rosebuds encountercharacters who question the value of their relationship. In the Little Princestory, the Prince met a Geographer in his travels who inspired the Prince tosee the value of his Rose to him.

What this squiggle meister is hoping for V8 is just Ruby andOscar having their own separate journeys that forces them to rethink theirrelationship and by the end of it, they’ll both walk out of it closer than they’ve ever been. 

It mighteven lead to them officially falling in love if a love story is in the cardsfor them. Only time will tell.

~LittleMissSquiggles(2020)

#squiggles answers: rwby #oscar pine #ruby rose #rwby rosegarden #rwby volume 7 spoilers #rwby voume 8 theories #rwby theories #celticboudicca #squiggles answers

[asbestieos]

regarding your poc about dark-skinned characters in rwby. i can’t believe in the year 2021 that this is how RT decides to write marrow’s switching sides. especially after the BLM stuff that went down in the USA last year. so tone deaf.

[Image Description: Six screenshots of scenes from the webshow "RWBY", produced by Roosterteeth, specifically from episode 11 of Voume 8.   The character Marrow Amin stands between his commander, General James Ironwood; and his team, Elm, Vine, and Harriet, of the Ace Ops.   The second-in-command of the Atlas Military, Winter Schnee, is standing off-frame. Marrow is speaking out about Ironwood and the Ace Ops' actions. In the first screenshot, Marrow is faced towards his team and says "I used to wear this rank with pride." In the second screenshot, he continues and says, "Now I see it for what it really is:" In the third screenshot, he turns his head towards General Ironwood and finishes by saying, "a collar." Context: Between the third and fourth screenshots, General Ironwood raises his gun to fire at Marrow, but Winter Schnee quickly kicks Marrow down to the ground before he fires. In the fourth screenshot, Winter is standing over a kicked-down Marrow. In the fifth screenshot, Winter has Marrow pressed to the ground. In the sixth screenshot, Winter handcuffs Marrow while he's on the ground with his three teammates in the background in varying degrees of shock.   Winter says, "You want a collar? Fine." Added Context: Winter is a light-skinned / white woman.   Marrow is a dark-skinned Faunus man (the Faunus are humans with animal traits);   his Faunus trait is a dog tail.   Elm is a dark-skinned / brown woman.   Vine is a light-skinned / white man with a third eye tattoo on his forehead.   Harriet is a dark-skinned woman.   James Ironwood is a light-skinned / white man. End ID]

FOR REAL!!!

the Ace Ops will ALWAYS always be a massive point of contention for me because it is impossible that the CRWBY could've ever seen them as anything but a bad idea, especially with the writers they had on board.   The Audacity to have Winter pull a white savior and 'save' Marrow from being executed by Ironwood.   That scene in general where she pushes Marrow to the ground is so fucked up!   How do they not realize how awful it looks?   With the real-life context of police brutality and violence from white people towards black men?   Aside from this scene in particular, how did they think it was a good idea to make 3/5ths of the Ace Ops dark-skinned?   Oh, yeah, let me make a majority of my elite police team black and brown, definitely won't have any real-life consequences on my viewers and DEFINITELY won't look bad in the context of real-life brutality and violence that dark-skinned people face

As a side note, so frequently in Volume 8, RWBY has considered the trauma of its characters of color as less important than that of its light-skinned characters.   Violence towards characters of darker skin color in RWBY is often more brutal.   You see this in every fight Hazel is in, when he stabs himself with Dust crystals!   The unnecessary fucking Oscar torture porn in Volume 8!   Even in this scene, with Marrow being kicked down! Hell, the fight between The Hound versus Ruby, Blake, and Weiss is framed as a hell of a lot less brutal than when The Hound kidnapped Oscar!   There's really no explanation for this other than plain antiblackness and this perception that the pain dark-skinned people feel isn't as bad as that of white-skinned people!

Routing back to the Ace Ops, it's almost like..   It's a bad idea..   For the white writers..   Who have shown that they're Incompetent at handling topics of racism and discrimination with the absolute lukewarm finish of the White Fang arc..   To write people of color and disenfranchised minorities in positions of power that abused them in the first place.   Who woulda thunk.

#rwde #rwby critical #rwby criticism #LIKE IGNORING HOW APPARENTLY THERES NO HOMOPHOBIA IN REMNANT #BUT TRANSPHOBIA IS ALIVE AND WELL #AND NO COLORISM BUT FANTASY FAUNUS RACISM IS REAL? #like. as a side note i Am a light skinned asian woman so maybe my rant is a bit off and im just reiterating points that have Already Been #raised before by other rwby watchers. but im still so pissed off at the AUDACITY of the white writers to whitely white white this way #aside from the frankly cold handling of the dark skinned ace ops what the FUCK is going on with Vine #long post