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thealmightyemprex · 1 year

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Disney Requests REview : The Aristocats

Requested by @goodanswerfoxmonster ,Im gonna talk about the Aristocats .This one is actually a childhood favorite of both of us ,and he wanted to know what I think of the movie as an adult .It is true this was a favorite of mine as a youngster,its definately the 70's Disney film I latched onto the most .As I got older I have found it has people who dismiss it or straight up dont like it ,however.....I still like it,despite completely getting why people wouldnt latch onto it

This 1970 film follows Duchess (Eva Gabor ) a mother cat with three kittens ,all set to inherit a large fortune from their owner the former opera singer Madame Adelaide Bonfamille (Hermoine Baddley ),when they are kidnapped and abandoned in the French country side by the butler Edgar (Roddy Maude-Roxby ) ,who seeks the fortune himself ,so the cats gain the help of a street wise alley cat Thomas O'Malley (Phil Harris ) who guides them on their way back to Paris

So lets start with what doesnt work,I feel for Edgar too much .See EDgar is a good loyal butler,and only turns on the cats cause he is afraid they will outlive him.Its not like he hates the cats or wants to kill them ,he is just a desperate guy ,and while I love our heroes ,I'm sorry but I get Edgars motive.SEe if the will said he'd have to take care of the cats to get the money and he didnt want to ,that would be one thing but no ,the cats are inheriting FIRST and he only gets the money after they die .I think what they needed to do was make him MORE resentful or MORE greedy .I ve seen some of the early stuff about Edgar which emphisize him as a manipulator and a greedy monster ,and wish they went that direction (Also originally he was going to be played by Boris Karloff and Elsa Lanchester was going to play a maid with a crush on him ,wouldnt that have been fun ,have a Frankenstein reunion ) .I also just think as an antagonist hes just bad ,hes got his funny momrnt but there is just no menace

Also be warned one of the characters is a Chinese sterotype

That said I like the rest of the movie .This film is low stakes so it is a pretty light and fun watch ,got a chill vibe to it . I like the wacky side characters especially a energetic yet very elderly lawyer George (Played by legendary character actor Charles Lane ) and the drunkengoose Uncle Waldo (Played by Disney veteren Bill Thompson in his final role ) .There are two funny chase sequences involving Edgar and two dogs voiced by Pat Butram and George Lindsey ,that are highlights of the film .My absolute favorite scene however is when we meet Scat Cat voiced by the legendary Scatman Crothers who treats us to the ver underrated "Everybody Wants To Be A Cat ",its a hell of a fun show stopper and best part of the film

I also really adore our two leads ,Eva Gabor and Phil Harris deliver good performances ,O'Malley in particular has a swagger about him I like(With a great intro song ) and I legit think they have one of the most belivables and swettest romances in Disney

Question time

1. What do you think of the character animation? I always felt that the kittens didn’t move like kittens—don’t get me wrong, nothing wrong with the designs, but at best they move like adult cats. Oliver from Oliver and Company is how kittens move.

I like the animation on Duchess and O Malley ,but I agree about the kittens

2. …Duchess is like pretty hot, right?

This movie definately awoke some furries

Overall I enjoyed revisiting this movie,its flawed but I still love it

@ariel-seagull-wings @themousefromfantasyland @princesssarisa @filmcityworld1 @the-blue-fairie @angelixgutz @amalthea9

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romanken · 9 months

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8, 10 + 2 if you're feeling heinous 😈 24 if ur not 😇

8. common fandom opinion that everyone is wrong about

well MY special little noble is actually the most inherently just and pure of heart and when they win the throne there will be a thousand years of peace. Wdym inherent violence of feudalism that's not real. And while there has been a downtrend in this belief throughout the last five years it HAS influenced a lot of other discource subtly... most people have realized that the way to start fixing westeros's problems is not thru a nice feudal monarch, but they dont understand that abandoning this framework for character/plot analysis also means abandoning a lot of other framework. In the arya v sansa wars people still use feudal patriarchal definitions of femininity to decide who is the Best Sexy Feminist (preteen girl). In debates about morality for certain actions people excuse things because it aligns with the feudal code of ethics- a deeply flawed and violent code. See: ned HAD to take theon hostage because well we live in a society. Like i think it's important not to hold characters to the same moral standards that we hold people in modern times to, because their circumstances are so wildly different, but we dont have to adhere to THEIR feudal values when analyzing them because its only a detriment to their characters. They live in a society but WE do not... cmon guys...

10. Worst part of fanon

no one fucking draws these characters ugly enough. Asoiaf fandom has a plague of sameface ig model syndrome and it sucks cause george puts so much distinct personality even in minor characters and then people are like hmmmmm what if they had the same button nose and good chin that everyone else has. Brienne is ugly let her be ugly!!! Arya and jon have long plain faces u dont have to draw the teen/preteen kids as super defined and striking! Let the kids look like kids. I don't care how beautiful dany is let her be a 15 yr old. OR the instinct to make everyone best friends forever and soften the complicated dynamics btwn these characters. like modern aus where the starks are the benevolent rich people who adopted theon from his abusive trailer park family grind my gears like hes a child hostage from a powerful noble house and u cant erase such a defining part of his character bc you want everyone to be nice to each other. Also related to this is people making jaime nice/acting like asos was a redemption arc or that he didnt commit some uniquely horrific acts in agot/acok. His actions thru out the last two books are not the acts of a changed man they are the acts of a man who realized he can make choices based on empathy and reason not instinct. LAST thing which is something i dont reaaaaally see here much but i know the cunts on ao3 are doing it: the post canon thing where people want brienne and jaime to get married and have twelve kids. Fuck you eat shit and die brienne is not an incubator especially not for that lannister SLAG

2. a compelling argument for why your fave would never top or bottom

cersei is not necessarily my fave but shes a character whose sexuality i often think of. In canon the only time she's had sex with a woman she's topped and every time she fucks a dude she's disassociating so hard shes on another planet. Even when fucking jaime shes like imagining herself in his body fucking him in her body. In the bulldyke cersei universe he's stone. The pants stay on during sex and so does the shirt and probably also the shoes. Cis gay guy cersei universe he already thinks being gay is emasculating enough so obviously he's not going to let anyone penetrate him. Transmasc bi universe its like you've never been strapped until you've been strapped by a dude who's never cum once in his whole life. THANK YOU!

24. topic that brings up the most rancid discourse

"Daenerys is basically george bush because she uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh well its a post 9/11 metaphor and uhhh well astapor is basically iraq and uhhhhh nuclear arms" "dany has never done anything wrong in her life and criticizing her means uhhhhh you hate women and abuse victims" "dany is a RAPIST and a RACIST and wants ALL BROWN PEOPLE TO BE SUBSERVIENT TO HER" "mirri maz duur deserved to die horribly for killing (checks notes) her enslaver" "dany is a colonizer (that's not what that word means. you need to look up what that word means)" brothers. Lets all link arms and kill ourselves

Jesus Christ this is long as hell. Sorry I got a lot of beef

#asks

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skloomdumpster · 2 years

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Really? You dont think Sky occasionally is uwu when talking with Bloom S2 or with Silva S2??? :)

I mean, I don't know what you're defining "uwu" for.

He's incredibly sweet when he's happy. Bloom being the most notorious example, Sky's so damn sweet it borders on corny "I don't talk about my problems with you because you're the solution", "oh really, that's all that happened in the house between us? Nothing else important happened, right?" "I just... Can't believe you're my girlfriend."

It's very cute and adorable. That said, this is a minor percentage of Sky's lines and, again, only happen when he's happy and heart eyed. The rest of it, are all sassy and straight to the point. He shuts down Riven's endless teasing about Bloom every damn time, from "really? I didn't realize your hand was a redhead" in s1 to "question, to you really think this is funny, bud?" in s2 and just ignoring the teasing and walking it off.

Even with Bloom, or maybe especially with Bloom, we see this behavior. When she's talking about releasing Silva, "this is an avalanche of shit Bloom. If you succeed or fail, an avalanche" "Actually, don't tell me. I know you well enough now to know that I can't stop you doing whatever you wanna do." when she does release Silva "I'm happy you're okay, but I'm not speaking with him", when she hides things from him "Yes, Stella told me. It would be nice if my girlfriend ever did the same," when she tries to isolate from him, "Bloom, I'm your boyfriend. If we can't even stand in the same room together the how are we-" and then "We can fix this, Bloom", and finally "So you wrote me a letter. You were going to walk out of my life, so you wrote me a fucking letter?"

And this isn't covering his lines to Silva, who never once get as loving as the ones with Bloom, but definitely get twice as mean, "you told me my father died fighting and now you just want to lie here and take it? Fuck that." and "Andreas was flawed? And what the fuck am I supposed to do with that?" and in season 2 "Right. You can go now" (after his father managed to escape from prison, before being nearly sent to exile), "You wanna know how to fix it? Leave. Alfea, Blackbridge, leave and never come back." Sky is downright mean when he wants to be.

Sky IS loving, extremely so, but he's not a doormat and he's definitely not so sweet it takes away from his sharpness, not even with the woman he absolutely adores or with his father, let alone with anyone else.

So yeah, I don't think he's uwu. Do you anon?

#fate the winx saga #fate: the winx saga #answered #mymeta #boyking

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safetyrat · 2 years

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🍒🧡💧 + CHRYSES!!!

i am kissing you on the lips and transferring all the riches of the universe to your bank account as we speak

heres the ask game (ocs are midas, adra, veras, isca and chryses)

🍒 What kind of things do they expect from their relationships? Does this differ between platonic relationships and romantic ones? Is your OC “demanding” or a door mat? What kinds of things do people expect from them in a relationship?

oh god chryses and relationships is tough, as he only ever had two people in his life who actually treated him as an equal and who he was close to. in his childhood he has only ever been treated lesser, as a child that doesn't know anything and has to be left in the dark about everything going on. so i think the only real demand he has is to never be treated like that again.

his following later actually respect him and actually think of him as a capable leader, rather than that he has to be groomed into that role, and he thrives under that attention. thats his demand towards his subjects. but i dont think he could ever have a personal relationship with somebody that puts him on this pedestal like that.

isca is different. because as much as he bullies and teases chryses, something that irritates the hell out of him at first, isca always both treats him like a normal, not untouchable human and also as someone valuable. isca makes use of chryses cleverness, indulges in his passion, actually listens when he is worried about something. the only demand chryses could have towards isca is that he doesnt also leave him and. haha about that

chryses is very aromantic so the only thing he expects out of a romantic relationship is a Respectable And Politically Benificial Wife Who He Can Court Smile :)

what other people expect out of chryses... they expect him to be the person they idealized him to be. the flawless king. the saviour of all. the reviver of justice. if i had to find a flaw between iscas and chryses relationship it would be that isca never fully lost that part that so desperately longed for a prophet that shared his views. he treats chryses like a normal person, sure, but he never lost that glow in his eyes when thinking about what chryses could achieve.

i think the only person who could truly see chryses as the person he is and not the person he was born to be is his brother. but LMAO yeah that ain't happening anytime soon.

🧡 Who is your OC’s favourite person? Why is this person the top of their list and have they actually met them (an idol or rolemodel or celeb can be someone’s favourite after all!).

i think if chryses was asked this question, his initial reply would be a snarky "nobody"

if he was allowed to think about it, especially about the 'it doesnt have to be somebody you've met' part, i think he'd arrive at justice. chryses is very very religous and never looses that deep admiration and connection to that goddess. to his goddess, he has been told all his live that she chose him after all.

...the actual answer is very obviously isca FGHJKH but do you think chryses will ever admit to that??

💧 What is the earliest memory your OC can recall? Do they know what their first words were or remember where they took their first steps? Do they have any mementos of their childhood they’ve kept such as a stuffed toy or tiny baby clothes?

chryses has no recollection of his childhood in the palace, nor does he still own anything from that time. the revivers made sure of that. generally his early childhood is defined by not knowing what is going on, being passed from one room to the other and a lot of pain. the only times that were ever good were when he had his sibling by his side. if i had to pick a particular moment that he remembers first itd look probably a little like this, though:

the room is small, but its so empty that it still looks bleak and sad. the only things decorating the walls are emblems he doesnt know the significans of and writing he cannot read. he is sitting on a bed, but the surface is leathery and cold, not comfortable at all. he doesnt remember the face of the person next to him, but he does remember a womans voice promising "dont worry, it wont hurt at all" before slicing open his skin in a straight line on his upper arm. he watches fluid gold trickle down into the vial she is holding. this is after he has learned that crying and protesting doesnt serve a purpose. but he hasnt taught himself not to flinch yet.

#thank u for the ask!!#dayables #ask game #pyrite

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away-ward · 8 months

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Hey, thanks for the reply for my ask! The tiktok video i sent was under the username @ wanderbella_ and the post is picture of a blonde woman with some blue dress (?) the title was "you think you won? nah girl you're just easy". This one >> ( https://www.tiktok.com/@wanderbella_/video/ 7268488507641941253?_r=1&_t=8fChpFFVp7o ) just delete the space between / and 7

And yea, i think im just not a fan of unnecessary jealousy scenes, which was why i like your fic because even if some type of jealousy was present, it never took away much from willemmy's relationship building outside of it. I also agree with your point about will's potential, because i believe if only pd just gave him more on page time and development, he wouldve been an amazing character. He was so lost, and maybe his stagnant surrounding also amplified it, so why cant we see him doing something else that's opposite to what he had, that could later on add his growth or something? even his vacation and other good things he did before blackchurch took a backseat, they were only mentioned in passing, so we really dont know this "amazing will" that his friends saw, we were only just told about it. So we got the shitty version of him (especially the treating women like shit), and we were expected to like him and be like "oh will, so romantic!" "The best horsemen to treat his woman right" Like where?! 😒 Istg, this particular angle of Nightfall will was so similar to corrupt michael, its such a turn off: The same flaws of michael that i hated in corrupt, especially the almost to no development ON PAGE of misogynistic weak male characters who cant stand up for themselves and their woman then let others treat their women like shit in front of everybody, and pd even had the fucking audacity to write a scene where michael called emmy weak 🙄 (However, Was what michael was true? I think In a certain angle it is, because even emmy had acknowledged that there are somethings she didnt have courage to fight for then because of her situation, but she wasnt a coward in everything. Then we got will who is shit at everything, even at loving emory, because apart from being a jobless and useless character, even as someone who was written to be the MMC of the book, he just sits there in thunder bay on his high horse and complaint in his head here and there like an annoyng insufferrable karen. So these mfs can go f themselves honestly.

One thing about this series that i fcking hate is the men likes to humiliate others and even their women in front of everybody, and then "let" them fight, and rebrand it as "women empowerment". Its 2023 why are MCs still the one to define what women empowerment is? And why do female readers ate them up? Thats why i said, a big reason why the FMCs in this series was treated like shit by their friends is because the horsemen lead them by example. Like hideaway michael learned later to stand up for rika and not let her always gight alone like in corrupt, and afterwards he put banks in her place, kai in fire night for that prank, damon for overcrossing his boundaries etc. at least we see growth, bare minimum but its still there. But nightfall will, oh god, fucking useless, why the fuck was he still around alex after all of that? We never even saw will telling her off to shut the fuck up and go mind her own business. We never even got a sorry from alex. Emmy was better than me because if alex was my friend, i wouldve cut her off from my life, but then emmy was kinda dumb to go back to will without making him apologize and fight for her more too so i guess being dumb is a general theme for this series.

For me personally, i also hate that these men can do whatever they want, but the readers just buy whatever they say, without actually thinking about what they just said and did. The two most laughable quote to me are from damon (others are all from michaelrika lmao) where he said in conclave and nightfall about how he thought hes best around women now and women only dont know how to fight if they were taught. Do i disagree with him? Not fully. But do i hate that Damon was the one to say this? Fuck yeah. I had to laugh because really, damon was suddenly the one to say this? Its more believable if theres a steady character growth for him relating with female presence in his life, but nooo one day hes a villain, and the next hes a feminist 🙄 His stupid switch of personality was so?? unsatisfying to read. And thats the thing, pd wrote all these shitty scenes about shitty men, jumping from one characterisation to another within 24 hours, and still expect us to buy it under the pretense of "going over the edge, feeling everything, doing whatever you want, deal with your shame, dont run away from it". Wow, pd, youre so inspirational! #1 feminist! 🙄😒

Anyway, I think will's character is probably the second most disappointing thing i have to read from the series, with the other 3 horsemen's povs combined being the most disappointing thing about DN. Idk, i think i just hate reading about women-hate in books and unequally matched power couple where one of them is very blatantly weaker (oh on that note, the same goes with winterdamon. Why is damon's partner someone like that??? Shes so stale! Lacking intensty, and I very much agree with your other anon that winter was just so useless outside of damon and being a ballerina, and to me, its not even because she was blind. Theres a lot of amazing things that disabled people can do irl and pd didnt even try to do their research well and make her a more outstanding character. We could literally have a great disabled rep in DN, but nah, pd said, aint no way for non-damonrika content and disabled women empowerment today!) Even worse when that weakness was made to be their whole personality, as if he or she does not have a backbone or anything going outside of it. Will grayson was literally a person of himself, a son, a friend, a potential uncle, a lover, a family gatherer (or wtv you name it) and many other things, but pd cant even slip this into his character??? Ugh. I already had many problems with will's character but like i said in my intial ask, his bad treatment towards women just seals my hate for him, just like the three other horsemen. i hate him, and i dont think im ever gonna take recs with "characters like will grayson" again if theyre the exact same with the one i read.

Lastly, i dont think you come off as will grayson's #1 fan or anything, nor do i think it's a problem neither. i also understand that if you do come off as one, its not my place to yuck your yum bevause this is your blog, and as much as a stranger like me can asks you asks, this is still your blog and a place for you and your moots to have fun with your fan contents first above everything. I believe that even if you maybe do enjoy something problematic etc. from this series or from somewhere else, by looking at your anons' response here, you seem to know the difference between fiction and reality and is very respectful when you deal with different responses and opinions, so thats a good thing. I only came here to express my frustration, thats all. Thank you for reading & replying!

Hey!!

Okay, I was able to see the tiktok this time and I totally get what you’re saying. Will definitely used women to make himself more comfortable and Alex, if that’s who you were imagining when you saw this, shouldn’t feel any type of pride for having “bagged” him. The truth is, both Alex and Will are easy lays who require little to no effort to coax into bed. I mean, I think Will would be loyal to Em once they’re together, but outside of that Will has no guardrails to keep him from doing stupid stuff. Both he and Alex live in the gutter where that’s concerned.

, which was why i like your fic because even if some type of jealousy was present, it never took away much from willemmy's relationship building outside of it.

Not sure which fic you’re talking about but I’m assuming it’s No Apologies since that deals with jealousy the most. It was a struggle for me to write because I never thought of Will as an openly jealous person, but again, I’m not any kind of authority on the character and as PD as proven time and again, I have sort of a glorified “but he’s actually better than this” view of him.

That being said, I did feel that he had no right to his jealousy in any way. So I had to (for myself) find a reason to justify it and it seemed the best course to make it about Em lying all the time. Lying about the abuse, lying about her feelings for him, lying about other men touching her, not admitting that she signed that paper even though he knew it was all a crock. She lied, seemingly to protect other people when she should have been worried about him, and that's what he's jealous over. It was the only way I could make it work, because I also don't see the point of a useless or misplaced jealousy plotline!!!

even his vacation and other good things he did before blackchurch took a backseat, they were only mentioned in passing, so we really dont know this "amazing will" that his friends saw, we were only just told about it. So we got the shitty version of him

Yeah, exactly! I few asks ago I went off the rails about him because all these little things he does that aren’t really touched on and are sort of glossed over really paint a different picture of him than the one we see on the page. And had any of those traits been brought out more, he could have really shined.

this particular angle of Nightfall will was so similar to corrupt michael, its such a turn off: The same flaws of michael that i hated in corrupt, especially the almost to no development ON PAGE of misogynistic weak male characters who cant stand up for themselves and their woman then let others treat their women like shit in front of everybody

I didn’t really piece this together right away but you’re right. Will during BC and Michael before the Big Twist are very similar. Willing to let their friends hurt the girl they “care about” because their revenge is more important and “it’s what they deserve,” only to find out that their involvement was nothing at all and shouldn’t even be considered. Really need to find a different plot here. Also, as you said, it’s weird that both Michael and Will took the same course of action. They’re two completely different characters, so shouldn’t they have reacted differently to learning of their girl’s “betrayal”? I think I tend to be more forgiving towards Will’s anger (not to be confused with his treatment of Em, just his anger and ability to justify himself), because he loved to such an extreme extend of course he would hate her the same way. His emotions swing from one extreme to the other. Michael was always mean to Rika. His love and hate seem exactly the same to me. But anyway.

pd even had the fucking audacity to write a scene where michael called emmy weak

there was an anon who had an interesting take on this scene. I’ll link it here. The point was about half-way down. I'm not sure which I tend to think is more believable - Michael actually had a plan with calling Emmy weak, or Michael truly believed her to be weak because she didn't trust them and wanted to hurt her. But I did like that this was a new and different idea.

You bring up an interesting (and frustrating) point, that I think is a lot bigger than this series. Yes, female characters should be able to defend themselves. But does that always have to be through physical violence? It’s annoying that every girl in this series falls in to that trap (except Winter? I can’t remember. Other than her speaking Damon into a sobbing mess, I don’t remember much about her big coming into power moment.). Like, female empowerment can come in so many different expressions. But for some, the physical violence is and coming out of humiliation seemingly unscathed a draw and I don’t begrudge them that.

Like hideaway michael learned later to stand up for rika and not let her always gight alone like in corrupt, and afterwards he put banks in her place, kai in fire night for that prank, damon for overcrossing his boundaries etc. at least we see growth, bare minimum but its still there. But nightfall will, oh god, fucking useless, why the fuck was he still around alex after all of that? We never even saw will telling her off to shut the fuck up and go mind her own business.

I would have loved to see Will tell Alex to shut up just once. If PD was going to create a side to take between Alex and Em (even if for a moment), Will should have had to make a choice and he should have taken Em’s side. But instead we had Alex and Will standing together and Em meeting them where they're at. That’s worth a scream, I think.

Yes, since Will and Damon had the most to recover from, I think they should have been the last two in the series. However, Damon’s course to recovery and redemption is a little more predictable than Will’s. Which is why I will always stand by the idea that Damon’s book should have been the series finale and no one will ever change my mind. We should have gotten the chance to see a healthy or recovering Will. A Will at his best, because frankly… we have no idea what that would look like. And moving Damon’s redemption to the end of the series means that we can do a ten-year epilogue where Damon is a healthier version of himself where it didn’t seem like it happened overnight.

Idk, i think i just hate reading about women-hate in books and unequally matched power couple where one of them is very blatantly weaker

I think this probably where we differ the most, because I don’t mind this (that’s probably obvious from the stuff I’ve been posting lately), but only if there is eventually an equalizing of power. We do see that in DNs, it’s just done badly like most stuff in the series. Again, the potential was there. The bones are good. The overall idea is really fun. It’s the execution that trips up most readers, and that’s probably because there are so many other books that take on the same tropes and do something better to a varying degree. Either the revenge plot is better or the friendships are better or the FMC are preferrable. It’s understandable why this series isn’t everyone’s cup of tea when there’s nothing solely original about it. It just happened to combined enough of the things I like for me to discard the things I don’t (most of the time.)

, its not even because she was blind. Theres a lot of amazing things that disabled people can do irl and pd didnt even try to do their research well and make her a more outstanding character. We could literally have a great disabled rep in DN, but nah, pd said, aint no way for non-damonrika content and disabled women empowerment today!

Absolutely correct, and there was that other anon who mentioned diversity and how we couldn’t really expect PD to do extensive research about POC, so going off of that, Winter never stood a chance. I did like that at times she showed her abilities in both hearing sounds others couldn’t pick up and actually hearing the words people say, pulling out things other people would have passed over, but I also feel that PD used her blindness as an excuse for that and had it never occurred to them to make Winter blind, it would have just been another character that did those things because Plot Convenience.

But this does pose the question: what could PD have done with Winter to make her a believable blind character and make her blindness more apart of the story? Because of the action this series tends to lean towards, I always see Winter as a liability. She needs to be led everywhere; I never see her fight. But that assumption isn't really fair to actual blind individuals. What could have been done to make her a good rep?

Will grayson was literally a person of himself, a son, a friend, a potential uncle, a lover, a family gatherer (or wtv you name it) and many other things, but pd cant even slip this into his character???

I don’t know what you mean by family gatherer, but I do like that he’s the mood maker of the crew. People tend to gravitate towards him and trust him for whatever reason. He could have used that to his advantage if he were smarter. I also liked that Will was the only one with family that wasn’t included in the story. It’s clear that Damon has more siblings that just the two we met, but we don’t care about those because it’s so vague. Michael killed his brother, Kai has no siblings. Other than their parents, we know nothing about their extended family. But Will has two brothers, two cousins (one deceased), an uncle, ect. Like he has an actual family outside the group. I don’t know. It’s nice that PD expounded on some of that even though it’s not really relevant.

i hate him, and i dont think im ever gonna take recs with "characters like will grayson" again if theyre the exact same with the one i read.

Someone is recommending books with the line “characters like will grayson” but they’re not exclusively talking about High School/Simp-Supreme Will? Are they insane? That’s clearly the superior Will.

As for your last paragraph, thank you. I do have fun talking and trashing these characters because none of it really matters in the end, right. And I do try to create a space where people can sound off whatever things frustrated them, or things they liked about the series, without worrying they’ll be judged or laughed at for it. There’s no reason the fandom can’t be a place for people to enjoy, even if that means pointing out very real flaws with the material and still be heard.

Also, thank you for reading all those other anon's asks and being respectful when bringing them up. That means a lot for me and I'm sure to them as well.

*bold not meant for emphasis but for ease of reading/skimming.

#asked and answered #devil's night series stuff #the horsemen of devil's night #plot discussion #character discussion #will grayson iii #response to prev ask #asked and answered 87 #asked and answered 88

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actualbird · 2 years

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character analysis: vyn and artem + I Need To Be Perfect + fear and guilt = these two are more alike than you (and they) think but also end up so different thanks to their respective emotional method

wc: 1.8k, enjoy the dashboard stretch

general. vague spoilers ahead for both vyn and artem's stories but i dont mention anything specific, im more working on the vibes im getting from all of it as a whole. also obligatory disclaimer that these r just my own thoughts and interpretations

part 1: vyn and artem have a similar core desire

before i go anywhere, let me define the terms ive made up here.

in this analysis, a core desire pertains to something something one wants so much to the point it informs so much of who that person is. stuff like that person's ambition or what theyd like to experience in the lives or a certain image of themselves they want to embody for people who see them. u want something and u want it so bad that that desire paints a bunch of ur personality or actions or values.

an emotional method is basically what it says on the tin. it's a way someone pursues something, and in this case, the way someone pursues a core desire. but also this method doubles as a reason, almost, for what they desire what they want in the first place. this thing is like, both how and why that person pursues what they want.

with that all in place, i think a core desire of both vyn and artem is to Be A Perfect Person, tho the definition for what a Perfect Person has some slight deviations for both of them.

vyn seems to want to be seen as perfect irt having no weaknesses, no flaws, no cracks in the armor of who he is. vyn wants to be seen as learned, refined, and always on top of every stuation. artem wants to be seen as perfect more in the sense that he needs to be Correct, he needs to live up to all expectations set of him.

this desire of theirs shows in their personality and what they do. vyn, for example, doles out true vulnerability sparsely because vulnerability means showing another person parts of yourself that are "weak" or "ugly". and artem is just, ykno, //gestures to his entire life of overachieving and his whole reputation.

of course, how this desire manifests isnt a linear and perfect (haha) desire, there are instances where this desire is actually like, a curse of sorts. im not too sure about vyn (im VERY behind on his cards, apologies), but artem has mentioned various times that he wishes people didnt put him on a pedestal (examples off the top of my head are in SR Sparks and SR Fixated on You) and yet in spite of this, his actions are still ones that align towards wanting to achieve his kind of perfection anyway.

so they both want to be seen as perfect. thats a similarity they have that informs a lot of who they are. so if theyve got this in common, why are they such different people? why are they at odds with each other in canon? why cant they recognize this part of themself in the other, or, if they do, why do they not meet that with empathy?

it's cuz while they have that same core desire, their emotional methods to pursue it are juuuuuuuust different

vyn’s method to pursue that core is fear while artem’s method to pursue that core is guilt.

aka

vyn is like that because hes scared.

artem is like that because hes sorry.

part 2: vyn "if you kept a snake in your eye line, it wasn't gonna bite you" richter

the line in the above quotation mark is from the documentary "Joan Didion: The Center Will Not Hold" and the full quote goes:

"I, myself, have always found that if I examine something, it's less scary. We always had this theory that if you kept a snake in your eye line, it wasn't gonna bite you. That's kind of the way I feel about confronting pain. I wanna know where it is."

which, i think, is a great kind of explanation for how and why vyn tackles a lot of things, among them, the perfection situation.

vyn, in so many cases, always exhibits and aims to have control over the situation. he always wants to have the advantage, the power to be able to sway whatever is happening in either his direct favor or in the direction he needs it to go (like for nxx investigations). ive talked about this control thing in many past analyses but it's key here in conjunction with the above quote. he does this to "know where the snake is"

but he goes past knowing where the snake is, goes past having the information and examining that information. he doesnt just want to know, he wants to be at and expertly leverages himself to a higher level over that information.

to continue with the metaphor; he damn well knows where the snake is. and so he takes care to either be far enough away that it cant strike or he takes action and attacks first.

all this because at the end of the day, the snake---and lemme give the snake some names now: pain, hurt, things that are out to get him, things that will belittle him, things that will cast him out, and more and more because a lot of who vyn is as a person is strange to many people, it's other, and vyn is of the belief that the world regards things that are different with cruelty and scorn. and the sad thing is that hes right---is scary. it is something he is afraid of.

and when vyn is in control---when hes using his knowledge to run circles around people in conversations, when hes using his expertise to get the dominos to fall the way he wants, when hes setting up even just the image of himself in the way he does---it's way harder for things to hurt him.

vyn is on the defensive and offensive to protect himself. and a person protects themself from things they fear.

part 3: artem "to make up the fact that it's me" wing

ive got a line quotation marks above again and this one is taken from the essay "Ugly, Bitter, and True" by Suzanne Rivecca. the scene where that quote comes from goes:

The San Francisco therapist kept telling me I shouldn’t be terrified of creative experimentation. “I don’t know what’s going to come out of me,” I told her. “It has to be perfect. It has to be irreproachable in every way.” “Why?” she said. “To make up for it,” I said. “To make up for the fact that it’s me.”

which is, once more, a pretty damn good summation of how and why artem strives for perfection.

artem is a textbook overachiever. youngest senior attorney, always working, constantly striving for such high standards in everything he does even the things he enjoys like his hobbies. a bunch of this is because artem is like, holds a lot of value in the concept of rules. theres a proper way to go about everything and it just so happens that the proper way for him in particular to exist is to achieve all these things and continue to do so for the rest of his life.

and the reason that this is the proper way for him is because it's artem's apology for who he is as a person.

in many many stories, artem has expressed this sentiment that hes both too little (boring, not interesting, not fun to be around, has hobbies that arent exciting, inexperienced in emotional situations, all in all just a personality thats bland and not worth the effort of getting to know) and also too much (too intimidating, imposing to the point that coworkers and colleagues are afraid of approaching him, an unreachable paragon on a pedestal too high).

this kind of contradiction must be hell for artem, somebody quite rooted in logic. how can he be lacking and overflowing at the same time? somewhere, theres a fault in the system of who he is and this fault affects everybody around him and hes so, so sorry.

in a sense, hes apologizing through his striving for and achieving the so-called perfection he desires. he does this because he needs to make up for it.

to make up for the fact that he is who he is.

part 4: the same but different. what does this mean for them?

it means that we have one (among many) reasons for what we see in canon; vyn and artem at each other's throats.

oftentimes it's in a comedic context but this animosity between them also crops up in more serious contexts (main story (forgot which parts specifically): artem angrily saying that he and vyn are NOT friends, vyn expressing his relief that artem was not with mc when he evaluated her) and like. canon hasnt given us a reason for this yet, haha.

like, marius and artem are iffy at each other because theyve both lost somebody close to them and theres a possibility that their respective missing person could have a hand in the missing-ness of the other respective person. marius and vyn are iffy at each other because ksdjbgksjd working with ur teacher/student cant be all that great at first. (and from the sidelines, luke waves with a friendly smile, clean slate and no beef against the others)

but what about artem and vyn? theres no history given, so it may be because of hidden beef we dont know, may be because of just personalities clashing

but it may be because of this whole core and method thing i wrote about here.

to artem, vyn may seem to effortlessly exude the image of perfection that artem wishes he could be. vyn is not a contradiction, vyn wields himself expertly, vyn does not fumble, and for all that vyn has the higher ground, it's not in the lonely way that artem experiences. artem is guilty for who he is while vyn seems to bask in himself.

to vyn, artem may seem to be a glaring example of what hes afraid may happen to him; so focused on perfection that if someone were just to look in the right place, all those actions would lead to obvious faults that are being apologized for. vyn is afraid of showing weakness and artem is a case study of how perfection can point to those weaknesses anyway.

in each other, they might see a mirror image of something that exists in themself. but it's contained in a person that sparks jealousy in artem because artem feels shame and vyn seems to not. it's contained in a person that sparks apprehension in vyn because artem doing all this and it still might fail if vyn doesnt play his cards right.

so theyre similar

but also different in juuuuuust the exact direction to make the original guilt and fear even worse.

#tears of themis #artem wing #vyn richter #tot artem #tot vyn

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weirdmageddon · 3 years

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five years too late let’s analyze this. the commentary has gotten me back into gravity falls reigniting thoughts and insights i came to years ago

i love everything about this commentary in general it hits the points of humor, genuine analysis of the characters, but most of all im so glad hirsch addressed that the droid not detecting any fear from dipper here doesnt make any scientific sense because that was a massive CinemaSins moment for me

IDK the fact that dipper can fucking stand after an airship crash because theres a bigger threat at hand is literally one of the defining capabilities owed to adrenaline lol...... IM SORRY im a biopsychology student if i dont point that out iwill seethe and die because that was just . its a grudge ive held for a long time about this episode but didnt rant about because it was something so minor and i’m sure nobody would care.

i was 13 when this episode came out and i’m almost 19 now, i had a special interest in biology and i still do but now i’m actually having college classes in biopsychology so i can give my arguments more oomph now. and i have to say, now that i know more about the brain and autonomic nervous system the more this scene bugs me, if that was even possible. and it says a lot of dipper and ford’s relationship.

if dipper clearly wasnt calm before, why would he be now just because he’s put up an outwardly confident facade? before he was in the flight but now hes in the fight. my boy just rode on top of a spaceship by nothing but a magnet gun that could detach at any time if it failed and then the ship crashed, he sustained injuries, is in emotional turmoil because he thinks his uncle is Fucking Dead and the threat of a security droid that detects adrenaline is on his tail and produces a Big Fucking Gun in response to dipper saying “i hAvE a MaGNeT gUn” and hes screaming and has his teeth clenched but sure there’s no adrenaline coursing through his body in that moment i can totally believe that

when dipper asks what happened, ford says “the orb didn’t detect any chemical signs of fear, it assumed the threat was neutralized and self-disassembled” but i don’t think measuring someone’s heartbeat alone is particularly relevant in detecting ... chemical signs of fear?? they dont really tell you this shit but noradrenaline (and maybe adrenaline too if the acetylcholine from sympathetic outflow always activates the adrenal medulla??, theres two pathways) is always active in small quantities to make sure your parasympathetic nervous system doesnt slow your heart to dangerous levels on its own, regardless of your emotions. it’s just a homeostatic mechanism. your sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems are CONSTANTLY modulating control of your organs on a see-saw, literally with every breath you take. simply standing upright causes specialized mechanoreceptor neurons in blood vessels to signal your brain to project signals to release catecholamines via the sympathetic nervous system to constrict your blood vessels so that blood is able to reach your brain and not pool in your legs. i have a deficiency in my body’s ability to adapt to this which is why i know so much about it. if i stand up my heart races to compensate. i’m not feeling fear, my body is just adjusting—albeit grossly and incompetently lol.

but what im saying here is that the security system is flawed. it’s a cool idea to have security droids detect fear, but in practice by detecting adrenaline, and not even directly by detecting the molecule itself—it’s done in a roundabout way by reading the heartbeat, could be a recipe for false alarms. like what if someone’s on beta-blockers. that’s not really an adequate way to measure “fear”; there’s so many variables that could interfere with the measurement the farther you abstract from what you’re really trying to detect. and besides, adrenaline is NOT just a sign of fear, it’s just for preparing the body for action. i know the sympathetic nervous system and adrenaline is constantly linked with the “fight-or-flight” reaponse to a stressor, but 99.9% of the time the sympathetic nervous system is used in your life is to balance out your parasympathetic nervous system to maintain homeostatic equilibrium for mundane things.

i think detecting amygdalar activation would be more efficient in detecting fear. the amygdala sends projections to the hypothalamus which then in turn modulates the autonomic nervous systems. but the amygdala is intensely activated specifically in response to a fear-inducing stimulus (it does activate in response to other emotions but they’re mostly negative and is most activated by startle and fear), and wouldnt be highly activated by many other confounding variables like measurement of the heartbeat could be. the amygala is one of the first stops directly from external stimuli.

to show you how integrated the amygdala is as the first step in registering fear after receiving input from sensory stimuli let’s look at the auditory-amygdala connection for example

see how the auditory thalamus projects to the primary auditory cortex and auditory association cortex? the cortex is where conscious awareness of what the stimuli is comes from. this is the “high road”. it goes sensing -> perception -> emotional response. but sometimes you can be startled without even processing what it is you’re sensing, like the startle response of an alarm or a phone ringing in a quiet house before you even register what it is. this goes sensing -> emotional response, without perception happening until after you’ve already felt the startle. that’s when it takes the “low road”. here’s a simplified version:

even if that were the case with these droids though it’s obvious dipper is still fearful on some level here. his body language, voice, expressions all give it away. for the amygdala, aggression isnt too off from fear so it would be detected equally.

the reason this is so important is because ford uses this as evidence for why dipper is special, “i did it?” “you did it. this is what i was talking about, how many 12 year olds do you think are capable of doing what you’ve just done?”

but like....did he really? i’m not saying this to shoot dipper down or make him out to be more of a wuss, he was incredibly strong-willed here and i dont want to take that away from him because it WAS growth on his part. but the underlying psychophysiological reactions of aggression and fear shouldn’t be that different and this was a total asspull. maybe the droid was so old that it fucked up. maybe dipper being covered in grime and dirt made it harder for the droid to measure the correct heart rate through photoplethysmography (im assuming since they use a camera and are non-contact).

and in all honesty everything i just said brings into question the interpersonal healthiness of ford’s judgements, what he thinks, his expectations, and how he communicates that. in this video alex already talks about how ford is projecting onto dipper. and i think ford may be projecting his expectations for himself onto people who are not him, and the fact that it’s on dipper here makes it far more unfortunate. you realize how much this boy idolizes ford, right? how much impressions matter? dipper even tells himself before he leaves in this same episode, “all right dipper, this is your first big mission with great uncle ford. don’t mess this up.”

even though it’s unstated, the implicit message dipper is perceiving from ford based on their dynamic is: “do you have what it takes for me to be proud of you?” and to accomplish this he must be like ford, even though he’s clearly not and he knows this. he says “i don’t think have what it takes. i was tricked by bill, i was wrong about stan’s portal, heck, i can’t even operate this magnet gun right.” then, by simple chance without even knowing what he did, he activates the magnet gun and pulls out the adhesive, which immediately takes the focus away from what dipper was telling ford about his feelings of inadequacy to ford saying, “yes! dipper, you found the adhesive!”

these thoughts of dipper’s hang in the air without resolve or comment from ford. we don’t know what ford would have said. but it then becomes painfully self-evident in the scene immediately after when the droids emerge and ford tells dipper, “they’re security droids and they detect adrenaline. you simply have to not feel any fear and they won’t see you”, to which dipper replies with an exasperated (and rightful) “WHAT?”

dipper goes in a panic trying to indirectly tell his uncle that this isn’t something he can do. and he is completely right and valid to be freaked out by that full stop. that IS crazy. you can’t control your fear. you can control how you interpret that fear in your higher brain regions but the physiological changes will stick around for longer than it takes to cognitively calm down. it’s easy for me to detach from my emotions to analyze them, but being able to do this does not come naturally for everyone. even i have an irrational fear of wasps and i can’t control it by detaching myself, my body is just automatically primed to get the fuck out of there. i know it’s stupid and i know it’s irrational and isn’t helpful to get myself worked up but i literally can’t stop how my body reacts no matter how i cognitively think about it. expecting composure from dipper in a situation like this when he’s being made to consciously be aware of his anxiety is absolutely fucking insane. look what you did, placing these cruel expectations on him, now he’s afraid of being afraid! this isn’t a case where two wrongs cancel out, they just stack on top of each other.

youtube

there’s a good reason these scenes were put side by side but it seems up until now it had remained unanalyzed.

what dipper fears from ford is disappointment. not living up to his uncle’s (quite frankly badly placed) expectations for a twelve year old with anxiety. not once did ford say or subliminally communicate “i don’t expect you to be able to do what i can since you are not as experienced as i am and that’s perfectly okay, no judgements”. you don’t put a child on bike before training wheels. you don’t throw a kid into a swimming pool without giving them swimming lessons. the way ford is doing it, there’s no room for trial and error or mistakes that are an opportunity to grow and learn; instead, it’s life or death. he only seems to pride dipper on what he can do while ignoring the underlying struggles that plague him and never making it known it’s okay for dipper to fail in front of his hero and that he won’t think anything less of him for it.

and that’s why i found the ending scene for dipper and ford’s adventure in this episode to feel so.. wrong. on a scientific and social level. because by the sound of it ford focused more on what dipper had done to dismantle the droid (the droid not detecting any fear) instead of how dipper displayed love and protection for him even if he was truly afraid. what if the science was accurate and the droid detected adrenaline while dipper was confidently standing up for his uncle. would ford still be proud of him regardless?

#can you tell how i’m similar to ford but also so different like i said in that other post lol #gravity falls #analysis #dipper pines #stanford pines #long post #gf #gravity falls meta

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bogkeep · 2 years

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what's most fascinating about the whole mary sue argument to me is honestly, what do people percieve as Flaws in a character, and wondering at what Point does a character ever become flawed enough in the right way for you. i've seen and heard people define and redefine what a mary sue REALLY is and whether or not it's a good or bad tool for critique, and i genuinely extremely do NOT care anymore. no, no, i got curious and looked at iron widow's goodreads page (my mistake. i dont actually want to know what other people say about things i like unless i trust them) and i found some of the negative reviews (who are the vast minority! people are 10000% allowed to feel this way! nothing is for everyone!) VERY interesting. because. theyre like. "i had such high hopes for this book but the MC was an ABSOLUTE mary sue, she had no flaws and was also super unlikeable because she was so cruel and murderous. she was suicidal and ready to throw away her life for vengeance at the drop of a hat and had NO internal struggle or conflict or growth."

FASCINATING. TELL ME MORE i mean the story clearly just wasn't for them! and i had to close the tab because these reviews weren't for me! but it does get me thinking about how people talk about "flaws" in fictional characters. like, a character who is struggling with upholding their boundaries and just keeps helping everyone beyond their own means - that's a character conflict, right? but it doesn't register as one to a lot of people, they're a sweet precious cinnamon roll who can do no wrong, because the person they are wronging is themself. an arc where they learn to stand up for themself and say no and make selfish choices might even read as a negative character development to some! we all go into stories with our own. also idk man. i've read the kingkiller chronicle at least three times. it's fun. i enjoy it a lot. i enjoy the main character despite his Being Extremely Good At Everything Ever And Every Woman He Meets Falls In Love With Him. i'm not saying it's good. i'm saying i will probably read it again someday.

#too long for twitter #saw another post saying eugenides queensthief is a mary sue and like??? it depends on your definition. sure #sometimes the crux of the story lies elsewhere!!!!#maybe it's not about 'can u solve the plot' but 'can u solve the plot without sacrificing your own heart'#I JUST THINK THAT STORIES.................#also i sympathize w people who are in the minority of disliking a popular book. sometimes u just DO NOT VIBE and have to hear everyone rave #abt it. like. sometimes im reminded of paulo coelhos the alchemist and how its this wildly popular book #and i just. i cant stand it. i read it for school and i was so dissappointed and the older i get the more i dislike it #i wasnt forced to read it or anything like that. but the prosperity gospel narrative really sets my teeth on edge #ALSO ive never seen anyone call tanjiro demonslayer a mary sue #but as far as i can tell he doesnt really go through any development for most of the series. he's just a Polite Young Man #AND IT WORKS FOR THE STORY!!! at least to me and considering its popularity im probably not alone!!!

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thevalleyisjolly · 2 years

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Norman is not just an unpleasant dude from episode one he’s shown to be an emotional abuser, a man who takes advantage of his power to demean his workers, and no reason to think he’s a good person. Since then he’s only gotten worse. I’m worried we’re getting too caught up in perfect representation and perfect response. I don’t think anybody really needs to prove why they didn’t like Norman in the first place. Zac essentially went “here’s the worst character ever so you don’t have to worry about the brain slug I’m about to introduce” and the audience responded accordingly. I think a way bigger issue is people babying Norman as a character and letting him get away with all his shit. Which has been a problem that you are NOT helping with this think piece. Just because the character is a character of color doesn’t mean they can’t be a villain especially if a man of color decided so before airing him. I feel like if you have to put that many disclaimers you’re deciding to see and ignore the problems with your point. Or it seems like you put them in so you can be like NO SEE I SAID NORMAN IS UNPLEASANT AND I DONT AGREE WITH HIM. You bring up some good points but largely overshadow them with points that are directly contradicting them. Next time you write an essay start with a thesis other than “People we’re too mean to a deliberately created to be hated character”. You’re so caught up in having nuance you missed the actual nuance and ended up not really having or really defining a point.

Ok, let's talk through this, anon. You bring up some things that I admit were not made very clear in the original post (which I also admit was fairly dense and sometimes rambling), so let’s work through them together now.

The original post has gone through a lot of iterations, so there are some lines of thinking which I didn't make clear, but which informed the ideas there. One of those lines, which ultimately did not come through as strongly in the final draft, is that people of colour should absolutely be allowed to play villains and unpleasant people without having to worry about being "perfect representation" for their communities.

I'll expand on that here because I freely admit that it did not come through in the published version of the post. One of the complicated things about East Asian presence in media versus representation which is an ongoing conversation in the community is the challenge of "perfect representation." Bearing in mind what the original post was talking about, that production companies and fans alike tend to flatten and ignore even the most complex characters, has led to a creative culture where creators feel obligated to create idealized characters that have no serious flaws, because if you give even the tiniest excuse for people to tear them down, they will.

Naturally, this leads to frustration, because it places East Asian characters and creators on an impossible pedestal of perfection, constantly trying to live up to impossible standards. East Asian creators should be able to create or portray East Asian characters that aren't perfect, that may be morally grey heroes or dubious characters or villains!

That's part of what I think you're getting at, and you're absolutely right that characters of colour can and should be villains. Furthermore, as fans, we should be able to interact with these characters in a way that doesn't simplify or erase their villainy - these are bad people! Let them be bad people!

But the point I think you're missing from my post is that it's not just about whether or not Zac created a villain and whether or not he should be allowed to play a villain, it's about the way we talk about Norman's villainy, how that compares to the way we talk about other characters and other villains, and how this fits into a pattern that we've seen before in the fandom where, regardless of whether they are villainous or not, East Asian characters are measured against standards that do not get applied to white characters.

Now to address the other aspect of your ask, the reason why I put so many "disclaimers" is because the original post is situated in an ongoing discourse, where as with discourse in any fandom, anything which is not inherently critical of a character is read as supporting or defending them, even "babying them." I think you and I may be seeing very different sides of the discussion, because what I have personally seen has largely been what I discussed in the post - people arguing that what happened to Norman was justified because of his villainous actions/characters. You may have seen more of the other side, people passionately defending Norman, and that just means that we move in different circles in the fandom.

But for my part, that is where the disclaimers come from, since I wanted to make it clear the point of the original post as well as this post was not to "baby" Norman or to accuse people of being "too mean" to him, the point was to examine more carefully the way we have conversations about him, because those are often informed by unconscious racial biases that we are not aware of.

Furthermore, while I appreciate your own disclaimers about how I might have good points but overshadow them with contradictions, it is hard not to read a sense of accusation and hostility in your overall message. If that wasn't your intent, fair enough. We may not be interpreting each other's points the same way, and that's just how these things go sometimes.

To clarify my position once again so that there is no ambiguity: the point of the original post was never that people are being too mean to a character created to be a villain, the point was that we should be more mindful about the way we discuss the character and his villainy, particularly given his racialized identity. We can have conversations about Norman being selfish and an emotional abuser and a boot-licking accomplice, we can definitely have conversations about what punishment or justice or redemption might look like for him. But as fits the science fiction genre, it's not about whether our conclusions are "right" or "good," it's about how we each arrived at the conclusions we did, and being more aware of the factors and values (conscious or not) that informed our judgments and critiques.

As a final point - this is an ongoing discussion, and no one is bound to agree with each other or see things the same way. I'm one person who's been around in the fandom for a fair while and noticed some uncomfortable patterns in our overall treatment of East Asian characters, but not everyone will have the same view of things. Not all Asian people will have the same view! And that's ok.

Hope you have a good day, anon, and that this clarified some things about the original post for you.

#dimension 20 #a starstruck odyssey #dimension 20 spoilers #aso spoilers #norman takamori #norman 'skipper' takamori #dimension 20 discourse #long post #maintagging this both for organization and to keep the conversation open #i don't know how much free time i'll have these next couple of days but i think it's good that we're having these discussions #and i do mean discussion - messages that are just bad faith or personal indignation will be deleted #anon brought up some things here that i didn't make clear in the original post so i wanted to address those more and i thank you for that

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sxfik · 3 years

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Why is hanseok considered the greater evil, and vincenzo the lesser evil?? I genuinely dont understand, can you explain it to me please??

hiii thank you so much for sending me an ask!! i'm not going to lie, i saw this ask a long while ago when you originally sent it but it took me a long while to answer it because i really had to think about it and also it's kind of a hard question for me to answer. but, i will attempt my best to kinda give my thoughts on why we consider vincenzo as the "lesser evil."

first, i need to say that both vincenzo nor han seok are good people and i am not saying that either of them are good people. i am simply comparing their evil levels and explaining why we as viewers often find vincenzo to be the lesser evil than han seok.

second, we need to define what evil means in this context (which is kinda hard because it depends on each person's perception but aaa) if we're considering someone evil for purely their actions, excluding motivations, then both vincenzo and han seok are the same level of evil. han seok brutally murders, and psychologically and physically abuses people. vincenzo's actions (aka setting people on fire, abusing and murdering people, torturing people, etc.) also makes him evil.

BUT if you define evil through motivation, then vincenzo and han seok are still evil but not on the same level of evil. yes, both characters commit bad actions but their motivations are different. vincenzo kills only when given a reason to. for example, we know that a robber killed his foster parents so when he joined the mafia he both psychologically and physically tortured him for almost a year (now whether the method of killing is a justifiable or an equal punishment for the crime is an entirely different question and i just won't be able to answer that because it's just so hard and complex of a question.) he sets the warehouse on fire to get revenge on behalf of the victims of the drug produced in said factory. he kills the two people who killed cha young's father and he kills the people who set up the family of the dead researchers to look like a suicide. he only kills or tortures people who have done a wrong against him or the people he cares about.

on the other hand, han seok kills and tortures for his own amusement and gain. he kills the prosecutor with the hockey stick because he didn't get his way and they annoyed him. he allows and gives the resources to choi myung hee to kill or maim anyone that gets in the way of his plans. han seok murdered his classmates for no reason other than he didn't get what he wanted. and most of all, he tortured and abused han seo just for his amusement. han seo was his punching bag, where he would belittle and abuse him in order for han seok to get his anger out. he does bad actions without a given or justifiable reason. he would play with han seo and keep him on the edge at all times, because he got a power rush from it. so when you compare vincenzo and han seok's motivations for their actions, i don't think you can say that vincenzo is the same level of evil as han seok.

we also don't see vincenzo attacking someone beloved to the person who has done wrong in order to get revenge. for example, in order to hurt vincenzo, han seok kills vin's mother, who has not done anything wrong this situation. but with vincenzo, we never see that happening. even though we see vincenzo hanging out with prosecutor jung's family after he betrays them, there's not a moment that he actively threatens or attacks prosecutor jung's family. he doesn't threaten prosecutor jung or tell him he will kill his family because in his mind, it's not justifiable to take the life on another person who hasn't done wrongdoing in order to hurt the person who has. for han seok this is not true, he has killed or attacked innocent people to make his enemy hurt.

another reason we are bound to consider vincenzo 'a lesser evil' is because of remorse. despite vincenzo's motivations or actions, he displays remorse and regret for the killing he has done. han seok, on the other hand, does not. Vincenzo is haunted by the killings he has done, by the blood he has spilled and we don't ever see that ending even when he gains a family and gains love. even if he can justify his actions, he is still regretful of what he had to do. han seok does not show the same remorse as him, only feeling bad when it is his life that's under threat in the very last scene. not to mention that he brags about killing, he gets power and happiness from his killings both when he killed his classmates as well as when he killed the prosecutor. han seok takes pleasure in his actions, as he is shown dancing and being gleeful as he kills vincenzo's mother and many others. he has no regret or shame in what he has done.

in so many law and crime shows we see a "morally" good hero who "spares" the villain in the end because it is the "right thing to do" despite a) killing all their side minions that helped the villain and b) all of the villains evil actions and harm they have caused the victims. we, as viewers, often aren't satisfied at the end because we're not seeing the punishment match up to the crime. this show's main thesis is showing that han seok is so evil that no law or justice system can properly punish him for the pain and abuse he has inflicted on his victims AND because this system that is supposed to punish him is just as cruel and corrupt as he is. it's highlighting the injustice to the victims of babel as a corporation, victims of the justice and law system and victims of han seok himself. vincenzo is showing that he is the best punishment for han seok because vincenzo is a mirror to him and han seok in the end is getting a taste of his own medicine.

all of this is why that last monologue of the show is important. we, as viewers, are watching a show that frames vincenzo as the main protagonist. his actions and him are framed in a way to make us root for him, with the music and the cinematography. but we're also given small reminders of who he actually is throughout the show: through the nightmares he faces, through mr. tak telling him not to change into a lighter person, through the scene where he faces han seok in jail. and finally, that ending monologue is showing that no, he is still a bad person. he is still an evil person who is committing bad actions and us rooting for him to punish the villains in this show does not change the badness of his actions. really, that last line in vincenzo is making us question whether his actions are justifiable and can we actually root for him.

feel free to disagree with me or start a conversation below because i feel like this is a really interesting question but the answer to this changes based on each person's perception of morality and what constitutes a good person and a bad person. i feel like this is such a deep question and there's so many ways and angles that you can look at this from so i don't think i've done a great job in explaining everything but this was just what i came up with for today. there's also every chance that my line of reasoning or logic is flawed so i'm open to any criticisms to this so i can acknowledge and correct it!

(also if you want a good kdrama that asks these same questions and has that same energy as vincenzo then please watch taxi driver! it’s a great show and it really makes you think about the earlier questions of “does the punishment given out by vigilante justice match the crime committed by these people? to what extent is vigilante justice justifiable? where does the law draw the line between giving the victims of brutal crime justice vs protecting the criminal from cruel and unusual punishments?”)

#mine #vincenzo #chayenzo #vincenzo cassano #hong cha young #song joong ki #tvn vincenzo #jeon yeo been #vincenzo x cha young #meta #analysis

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dyketubbo · 3 years

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when you get a chance, thoughts on seer of space tubbo?

(i am also open to maid of space tubbo, and many others, but i am currently seer leaning)

*wakes up* oh boy time to classpect! under the readmore because seers are interesting enough that i ended up going on a tangent

of course no argument about the aspect because hes 100% a space player, ive discussed heir before i believe, so seer analysis it is, because i havent thought about it before (seers slip my mind sometimes, i love them, my brain is just the equivalent of a ground with a bunch of banana peels and cant handle having more than 4 coherent thoughts at a time).

like said with knights, he doesnt exactly try to tell anyone what he wants to come off as, sure he wants to be intimidating enough that people leave him alone, but, well. he does fit the intimidating thing, its less a facade and more a warning, he doesnt want to hurt anyone, but he will should he deem it necessary (thankfully, tubbos kind enough that he deems it unecessary in most cases). hes a bit too likely to follow through, and its bred from feeling unsafe, rather than feeling insecure. c!tubbo knows he can do things, the cc is more likely to downplay what he does than the character is (not that c!tubbo doesnt, but he does still believe in his abilities, he just doesnt think hes important enough to emphasize his impact. difference between going "oh no it was all __" and going "oh no it wasnt just me" when theres something hes done most of the work on)

so, he almost fits knight, at least in abilities, after all knights are capable and they know theyre capable, and hes very good at the exploitation aspect, pushing limitations and using them for their benefits. i could see him as maybe a knight thats actually gotten past the insecurity and facades already, if we're to consider his spy history as him being pre-actualization. being a space player doesnt really change how solid knight arcs are, so the combination of knight and space doesnt make knight much more fitting for tubbo

similarly, he does fit a few aspects of being a seer (having similar struggles, talking a shitton sometimes, sitting back and observing the world around him when he finds it beneficial to do so, generally very smart especially within their group), but not so much others (seers are often overbearingly smug in a way tubbos a bit too humble for, learning through education rather than experience, having a habit of getting too focused on their goal, and theyre overall passive, being too active is actually how they get themselves into shit, while tubbo gets hurt when hes too passive). seers of space focus more on the present than the future or past, which almost fits tubbo.. if it werent for the fact that he doesnt focus on the future or past out of repression cknsks. not that he would much anyways, but the intentional focus on the present is out of stubborness and trauma rather an actual trait of staying in the present. notably, theres quite a few times where tubbo does think about the past and future, especially when he was younger, and he does try to work towards his ideal future, he just doesnt talk about it much.

funnily enough, because of where seer falls through, he ends up being closer to the mage struggle of, well, getting their asses kicked when theyre too passive because things work out best when theyre involving themselves. mages also have that posturing thing as well, though its connected to intelligence (desperately trying to come off as smarter because they believe theyre still too dumb and naïve, even though theyre actually doing fine), so again, not exactly tubbos kind of posturing. plus, hes pissy, but not pissy enough for a mage, as theyre more likely to get caught up in how fed up they are with everything, while tubbo gets caught up in how much he still cares no matter how much he seems like he doesnt. the space aspect adds that theres.. a shitton of shit happening to and around him, which does fit, at least, and mages of space usually suffer because of their passions, knowledge, and experience, as well as they're rather hands on. again, fits, but, well.

seers and mages are a bit too focused on knowledge for the kind of person tubbo is. hes smart for sure, has a lot of knowledge, and even when hes not a spy he does want to know things and looks for that knowledge, but while he fits the goals and positives of seers (and mages), he doesnt exactly fit their flaws or what happens when theyre unhealthy. not that he needs to show signs of being unhealthy, but even healthy players still show an ability to be the unhealthy versions of their classes. he doesnt get his ass kicked for being too active and tunnel visioned like seers do (and it can sometimes come from ego trips, which tubbos very unlikely to have, even if he fits the "my solution is the most correct here, so we have to follow it" part of it all) like seers, he doesnt have any moments of just refusing to learn and complaining about how everything sucks rather than doing anything about it (nor is he likely too) like mages. he does vaguely fit where the unhealthiness of a knight can come in, propping up a shield to a ridiculous extent and lashing out when their insecurites are picked at, but that feels a bit too reckless to be tubbo (though it does fit tommy).

overall, i can kind of see seer for a slightly different version of tubbo, but it feels too passive for tubbo, if that makes sense. he is passive at least, in terms of classes anyways (note- despite how some classpectors define it, passive doesnt really mean you serve others, its not an insult, it just means you weave your aspect through others, rather than yourself. its the difference between a prince destroying x/destroying through x and a bard allowing destruction of x/inviting destruction through x. still listen to passive classes, thats what seers fall into after all, and seers are very important). its just that tubbo usually gets hurt by being too passive rather than getting hurt by being too active (not that it couldnt happen, which is why i say it could still fit under other circumstances).

speaking of passive v active, if i had to pick a passive class i feel fits tubbo the most, probably heir. active wise, id say maid does actually fit rather well. i feel like ive talked about maid tubbo before but i might be remembering a different analysis so just in case ill generally say i feel he fits the arc of going from a "doormat" to taking their life for themselves. theyre stubborn, stressed out from listening to others, like banter, occassionally silly and can start arguing in circles due to the stubborness (think that one patrick id scene, but smarter). maids are also heavy repressers, they fear being seen as weak, and are unwilling to ask for help. they rely on their environment and hate it.

and, painfully enough, some classpectors state that when pushed into being unhealthy, maids explode. maids are already intimidating on their own, being powerful and smart enough to know what to do with that power, and when they get stressed out enough, they, well, explode. they hurt everyone in one big event (think aradias actions in make her pay). its not necessarily a reckless lashing out at everyone like knights, but a giant burnout that happens to effect everyone. tubbos not at a point where it seems likely for this to happen, but i wouldnt be too surprised if something like it did happen were things to get too be too much. he is the mf with nukes after all. healthy maids are independent, with maids of space specifically, well, making space for themselves and others (sound like a certain snow commune anyone), attempting to start new lives. an independent maid, allowed to be their own person without anyone stepping on them, is a healthy maid. unfortunate for tubbo that his life fucking sucks too hard for him to really get to this point KEKW

heirs fit a similar "followed others then became more independent" arc, mostly unaware that theyre being lead around but, if whats happening aligns with their own ideals, dont really care much that theyre being a follower when they are aware of such. heirs have an instinct to stick to comfort, rather than an instinct to be independent like maids. heirs still need to find their independence and autonomy, but need to do so because they can change things, theyre also very powerful when they play correctly. however, going against what they may feel is best and is more comfortable for them can be actively painful, early heirs often would rather be comfortable and happy even if things arent going well than take the difficult route, know that theyll suffer, and temporarily risk comfort and happiness in an attempt to reach an end they dont know will be there for sure. they can deal with suffering, but choosing to stay constantly aware of this suffering hurts and they struggle with dealing with the fact that they need to be aware to stop the suffering.

heirs change by picking up on subtle details naturally, subconsciously effecting those around them, making either themself or others interact with their aspect differently (or actively not think with their own aspect, in a positive way). heirs, when self aware, want to help. thats an important detail, and its why heirs are often protagonists, they dont have the ambition to do things that only benefit themselves when they realize theyre in a position of power. at their core, heirs usually want to make things better, but learning to move on and better themselves can hurt, and it takes a lot for heirs to to let it be apart of the process.

unhealthy heirs fade. they get so stressed out by getting hurt that they shrink back into themselves, they stick with what makes them comfortable and refuse to acknowledge that they and others are hurting, wrapped up in their more selfish instincts and becoming hard and stressful to deal with. "i want everything to be okay" becomes "i dont want to deal with the idea that nothings okay right now", soon getting to "im okay and you cant tell me otherwise, fuck you if you want to take this away from me, you cant stop me but i will stop you". of course, that last one can be useful if a heir were to use it to change things for the better, but the tunnel vision on "i want to be comfortable even if im making others uncomfortable" is, well. shitty. unhealthy heirs wont actively try to hurt anyone unless pushed, but they can they can still manage to through a lack of acknowledging that they have to help. and well, that sounds somewhat like tubbo, the hurting through a lack of helping, at the very least its present in things like him not visiting tommy during exile (partially because it was safer to just not challenge dream, partially out of guilt and belief that tommy hated him)

heirs of space specifically are about flitting from project to project, learning about what interests them, impatient when others dont share their excitement, and learning when to adapt and move on from things. generally, if i had to put a scale on it, id say tubbos most likely to be a heir, then a maid, then a seer. it all depends on what aspects of him you wanna focus on, really. seer tubbo is really interesting though! i think seers are more smug than he is though, not that he doesnt have his moments, but his tendency to believe hes right isnt all too prominent compared to other traits of his, and its less from a smug "i know whats right" and more just a firm "this isnt right, i have a better idea". he wants to do whats right, but if he feels like he doesnt know whats right, hes willing to rely on others, it just.. takes him a bit of pushing to admit such

#i took like 5 hours on this hope you appreciate it max /lh #i enjoy classpecting though and i enjoy tubbo even more so its alright #dsmp #tubbo #dsmp classpects #hs #angel answers #long post #(iirc about 14 or 16 paragraphs maybe?#*)

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botwstoriesandsuch · 3 years

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hey Kip! I’m sending asks into different writer’s askboxes, inquiring about cool themes/development facts/stuff the author wants to share about their personal favorite work of their own. What’s yours? :)

Ok so this ask is old and when I first got it I was like “dang I don’t really have a lot to talk about, what should I talk about I could those revalink headcanons the Kip Cut that turned into a working fic uhh hmm maybe I’ll just make something new to talk about real quick” and then I did and now there is a 12+ chapter Revalink fic in my drafts and I’m gonna talk about that now, whoopsie doopsie [click "j" to skip]

aHEM, OK so allow me to break out the primary school white board because yeah, I have a lot of thoughts and the oxford comma has not yet made it’s home into my brain. oh and spoilers for paraphrase. for both all of Chapter one and future events in later chapters, but it’s really nothing you couldn’t surmise from the AO3 tags

so I really wanted to tell the story of Revali and Link learning and struggling to love again after the less-than-fortunate events of Botw, but I wanted a...how you say...fresher, approach on the subject? Like I know we always say that fanfic writers writing the same tropes and stories time and time again is good because we eat that shit up--but at the same time I had asian parenting as was told never to half ass anything ever, no matter what. So now I'm gay and extra and have depression maybe and oh would you look at that @motherhyrule has dropped a beautiful revalink prompt right into my lap

Great so now that we have, that, I shall take you on the step by step process on how to make a :sparkles: story. So step one is to spend at least five to eleven business days for your white board to dismantle your genre and themes and work them around your character arcs. Luckily I have prepared one ahead of time

s*breaks out those laser pointers that uni professors use* So let's start with defining genre. As define because I HATE you, fuck you. I want you to suffer and writhe on the ground, motherfucker. How dare you think that I would give you nothing but pure predictable fluff, fuck you and yours

is the set of expectations that your audience has when consuming a piece of media

And the great thing about fanfiction is that unlike movies or book where the genres are more vague like, "oh it's a noir mystery genre. so there's a crime, maybe a murder, and a detective and a criminal." or "oh it's a teen romance. so there's some white people and a morally questionable six-pack 18 year old love interest that will be painted as desirable for some reason" BUT with fanfiction HALF of the work out the window, because as soon as you see those #revalink #aro sidon #zelpha #revali is an idiot and #found family tags you already know what's up.

Now what's so great about genre and expectation? Well the fun thing about it is that

I will use it to fucking break you.

... ... ...

<3 For example! <3

In Chapter 1: Holes, you already expect there to be revalink, you already expect them to be soulmates with the soulmarks and there's angst and yadayada ya. Revali and Link have to match because thatttss what this is all about, this is about them! This is about cute, little soulmarks and romantic words!

But whoooopsie doopsie [disney channel laugh track plays] they DON'T match anymore! Link's got a different mark! The number one rule of this entire genre has been broken whoooooooooooooooops. *ba dum tiss*

You might notice with a lot of my writing that I do this a lot, this whole..."oop but there's one little thing that's different." TebaSaki sick fic? Ok cool, but what if Teba burns an irreplaceable relic of the Rito champion to fight a wizzrobe first to characterize why his dumbass clicks with Saki. Mipha deciding to persue Link? Ok what if she chases after a dragon to externalize this conflict as she pierces it's flesh for a scale. Link fighting a Lynel? Ok but what if it's actually a sidlink angst fic in disguise and it's also world building on how Link deals with the bloodmoon that erases all of his efforts which is sort of similar to how his existence was erased from Hyrule 100 years ago mwaahahaha! Ok now that I say this outloud I think I just have a pattern of using fight scenes to externalize character growth. I like fight scenes...anyways.

I think another great thing about the realm of fanfiction is that with the tagging system, I can basically use a chekhov's gun sort of deal, without doing any writing. You know I'm gonna use that gun marked "soulmates" but you don't know when I'm gonna shoot it, and you SURE as hell don't know how.

And huzzah! One of the main points of conflict both drives the tension between Revali and Link, solidifies the unique genre and setting of this world, while also creating a new mystery that will carry over for the next few chapters.

Is Revali right in that Link's rebirth makes him destined for someone new now? What will Link do with the information that his soulmark has changed? Why did it change? Did Revali's change as well? How does anything fucking work right now?

And sure, you might be able to tell where things will end with them, but you sure as fuck will not know how because I HATE you. Fuck you. I want you to suffer and writhe on the ground, motherfucker. How dare you think that I would give you nothing but pure predictable fluff. I am not your goddamn fairy godmother, I will do as I fucking please. You will suffer as you fucking deserve, fuck you and your little tiny--

Oh! But you might have noticed on my little planning whiteboard thing that there was a little T-Chart! For Revali and Link! That's because the next important thing besides plot (and in a lot of cases, including this one, it's argued to be even MORE important than plot) is

~CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT~

[to the tune of that history of the world video on youtube]

So yes, it's a little T-Chart outlining their character views in relation to the themes. And the great thing about themes is that they're not something you can necessarily predict in the same way you can with the genre and plot.

But now see, I'm very lazy so I'm just gonna plagiarize @hyrule-kingdom-updates thingy [that you should read btw] because they said my point quite clear enough

Now I don't really need to care about those points about bond and relationships and being understood, because I'm dealing with already established canon characters. I'm not some NERD who dabbles with entire casts of ocs who even cares about ocs not me that's for sure ahaahahaahahahahahaahahahahahAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH *cries in my orphaned WTTU fic* AHAHAHA*sobs*DONT FUCKING LOOK AT ME THAT WAY I SWEAR--

/j I love ocs

But the points I do wanna focus on is the idea that characters provide new perspectives on the theme, and that characters growth can be tracked based on their wants, lies, and needs.

So see, themes can be predicted the same as genre/plot because while you can have the same fanfic plots and tropes, theme will always vary!

Sometimes it's a journey of selfworth with Revali! Sometimes it's an exploration of trauma with Link. Sometimes it's about how you deal with the vulnerabilities of love with Mipha. Sometimes there's straight up NOOOO theme, and people just be fucking, and kissing, and baking, and having a good time. And that is totally fine too!

But I'm not a fucking coward.

I'm gonna weave in themes with my plot, because I fucking can.

I'm not a weakling like you.

Do you hear me, 2019 Kip? Do you hear me Demmers? Do you hear me Quill? I'm coming for your ass. You think you're so great, but I'm coming for you. Rest assured that your graves will be as deep as your sculptured pride--

Heeeere is that T-Chart again, plus more!

yyyyyYou might notice that Revali and Link are quite parallel, to paraphrase. Ayoooo, see what I did there? *dabs* I'm a genius. Anywho

They both start off the same way: 100 years ago they were in love and happy. Basically the equivalent of childish naivety. For the first time in their lives, life is whimsical and charming, and they make each other happy. In fact, it's almost a flaw with how they perceive this happiness. But don't worry! It doesn't last long!

You know what happens.

I think the chart is pretty self explanatory. Revali builds walls fast enough to give a republican a wet dream. Meanwhile Link makes every aromantic in the chat groan with his doubled down sentiments in the idea that his chances of being truly happy again are gone.

Now, I can't exactly describe the full on process of the inbetweens, and where Revali and Link are gonna go from here, because...you have to read it for yourself! Heehee...but something I did think was fun was how these character views on the themes are revealed. Because you'll notice that, I never give exposition. Ever.

Ok well, let me rephrase that. I never give exposition scenes. I will never give you a big LOTR fancy wizard scene explaining the ins and outs of a character's question or the world's magic or whatever. I'm a very impatient Kip, and I value efficiency. Nonono, it's all about multi tasking, baby!

Chapter 1: Holes is divided into three parts.

Post 100 Years - Medoh (Establishes Ghost Rev/Bonk Head Link's view)

100 Years Ago - Flight Range (Establishes old Revalink views)

Post 100 years - Mark (Develops Ghost Rev/Bonk Head Link's view in contrast to who they once were)

I think the way that you structure flashbacks is incredible vital, as it's a very quick way to characterize people without having them say stuff like "I used to be like you, until I took an arrow to the knee" or whatever.

And with the main structure of the chapters and the fic as a whole is focus on their characters, that means I can hide whatever other stuff I want in those scenes, becuase you're too busy absorbing the fun character stuff to realizing I'm giving you boring exposition. Like for example:

Post 100 Years - Medoh and Mark

Foreshadowing for the end of the fic

Set up connection to Medoh with Revali

Link has defeated Windblight

Link has been visiting Revali every night for the past few days

Link has already met Kass and presumably Teba

Link doesn't have the Mastersword

Revali's Gale is still an ability that needs master and practice on Link's end

And that's just some of the stuff.

And see, the only reason I can efficiently give all of this information regarding character, and even exposition, is because of the theme. The themes make everything relevant, and everything circles and encompasses one another, so there's absolutely no wasted space. I mean don't even get me started on how it's gonna be to characterize the other characters around this

I don't wanna talk about the other characters too much either because that's spoilers, but you can probably take a gandar based on my notes.

And oh my god this is just on the theme of the faults that come with "soulmates" and "true love" and all that, and how even magical destined relationships still require work and effort, and that no one thing or person solves all your problems. And that's not even TOUCHING the shit on trauma and scars. I didn't think it was even possible for me to talk about botw without touching on that, ha. Ah well, I've been talking for too long.

Revalink has a lot o' writing potential so das pretty cool yeah, I am excite

#revalink #paraphrase revalink #writing

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liquidstar · 3 years

Text

something the latest chapter of kaguya-sama made me realize is just how much better all of the characters are doing in their lives now because of their friendships with each other, and i just think thats so sweet.

kaguya herself used to be absolutely miserable and never smile, but then chika made her be her friend and miyuki made her join the student council and over time she became so much more open and happy, you really see just how important all her friends are to her when she’s afraid that she might lose all the pictures of them she’s taken, they absolutely melted this former ice queen’s heart. through the series she gets more and more warm and acts more like a typical happy girl. the ending song for the second season also makes it really obvious that she sees her friends as her happy place, an escape from her terrible home life, she really does love them so much. in the latest chapter she makes it so clear that her friendship with chika is just as important to her as her relationship with miyuki, and that the only reason she didn’t tell her was that she was afraid chika would be mad that she has a new special person in her life, but because chika loves her friend so much she’s nothing but happy to see her finally have more special people in her life too.

and miyuki of course has gotten a lot better when it comes to accepting his flaws and not seeing himself as a failure, he only ever initially drops this facade around chika who becomes sort of like, a mom friend to him, and since a lot of his issues stem from his mom abandoning him its really important for him to see that not everyone will. and later on its much more directly addressed between him and kaguya he becomes much more able to be happy with who he is and not push himself so much or be afraid that people will leave him for not being perfect. not to mention his friendship with ishigami who he actually confides a lot of his issues in, despite the fact that he gets his relationship advice from manga, but the scene of them laying down under the tree and just talking, while very funny, is still a really sweet moment. his relationship with kei is also very big, because thats his sister, but he also sort of fills the role their mother usually would have for her. and though she’s annoyed by it, its really important for her because its implied that when she was with her mom she wasnt exactly treated well, she ran away to be with her father and brother for a reason, and kaguya was the one that actually gave her the strength to do so so it all comes back full circle.

but chika has her own issues too, she seems like a very simple character, a typical genki girl. but she was a musical prodigy as a child, winning award after award. and yet she was so unhappy with that very ridged life, she had no freedom and all she did was practice. you can see it in her eyes in the flashbacks, despite the praise and trophies her eyes were were so dead and she was so different from the happy carefree chika we know. but then kaguya sort of became the straw that broke the camel’s back that forced her to quit, and it wasnt really out of kindness at first, but their friendship ultimately is what made her become the chika we know, the one who loves to laugh and play, its like she’s making up for lost time and finally getting to be a kid with all her friends. she is very much the gifted child who lost her childhood because of it, but she’s so much happier now. not to mention her friendship with the table-top board game club! its not given as much focus but you can really see her thrive in something she’s truly passionate in now, she loves making games and playing them with her friends!

ishigami’s whole thing can be pretty heavy, its played off as a joke at first but he legitimately is explicitly suicidal, but hes able to get better with the power of friendship. miyuki was very literally portrayed as a light coming into his life when he first enters his room to save him from his isolation. even before that though, miko also helped him, even if he didnt realize it, she was the one that advocated for him not to be held back a year which prompted the student council to look into his case and help him too. he has to get over a lot of his anxieties, at first he’s even afraid of kaguya, but he warms up to her over time too and they develop a pretty sweet relationship with her as his sort of tutor. and very critically, he joins the cheer squad. he actually put himself out there and made “normie” friends and it turns out it wasnt so scary after all. and his crush on tsubame is so important, because she rejects him, but they stay friends. he never once feels like she owes him anything or “friendzoned” him, even if it hurt to be rejected he wanted to be friends. she was really afraid of losing her friend that she loves so much, those feelings of platonic love arent in any way seen as lesser. and she helps him in the end by making sure the school knows that hes actually a nice guy and that means the world to him. theyre still friends and that relationship is important to both of them.

similarly though, ishigami also helped miko before they were even friends without her realizing it. he saw how much she was struggling with the constant bullying and decided to leave her a note to tell her that it gets better, and it was an incredibly important thing that stuck with her for a long time. their entire relationship is defined as “two people who secretly help each other” because theyre both hold such high personal morals that they dont expect good deeds to have to be pointed out or repaid. and then when she ran in the election, miyuki helped her get over her stage fright so people wouldn’t make fun of her anymore, and because he’s such a nice guy he even offered her a seat in the student council where she’d make a bunch of new friends, and despite going through sort of a rough patch she’s still ultimately far more confident than she’s ever been and she’s absolutely ready to become the president next year now, finally achieving her goal. and her relationship with miyuki becomes very sweet as they develop their relationship in the “senpai-kun and kohai-chan” chapters where they just bond as friends, often through her weird emo poetry but he supports her despite being terrified of it.

hayasaka is one of the most loaded characters in the series despite not being in the student council. the arc that focuses around her is even titled “ai hayasaka’s friends” because they’re what help her out of her situation. since she was a child she was used as a pawn by the shinomiya family, not unlike kaguya herself, and she considers kaguya to be like her precious little sister. but she’s also been manipulated into betraying kaguya by becoming a spy for her abusive family. and the amount of guilt she feels over it is so painful to watch, but she’s too afraid to do anything about it. when kaguya finally finds out, she’s not instantly forgiven, but for the first time in kaguya’s life she wants to forgive someone who betrayed her, and they talk it out, and they can finally become proper friends just like they always both dreamed of. her friendship with miyuki is interesting too, because they have a clash of ideals about not letting your “true self” be seen by people, because they wont love you anymore, and despite miyuki arguing against it, it very much is an idelogy he shared at the time. but when she finally does show her true self she’s loved, and in the valentines chapter she confesses to him, not out of love, but out of friendship. she asks him to be her friend, and her circle of friends just grows from there with all her facaudes dropped.

all of their arcs just play into the greater overall theme of the series, which just comes down to honesty and vulnerability with the people youre close to, the series may be a romance but it places such important emphasis on all its characters relationships and how they can make each other better, its so nice. theyre just friends and they care each other.

#kaguya-sama #this is half analysis half just me talking abt how lovable the characters are. theyre so nice. theyre friends #i love the trope of friends helping each other i really do. its very much found family in its own right #long post #text heavy

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enderspawn · 3 years

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It's alright if u don't wanna answer this cuz this argument gets people really riled up but do you think c!Techno is a tyrant or nah?

Cuz many c!techno apologists argue that he isn't just cuz he's an anarchist but I've also read a lot of essays that go against it and it'd be really interesting to see ur opinion on this

i think he, in some contexts, can most definitely be called tyrannical, yes. a tyrant? no.

to avoid spamming ppl w discourse we've all def heard before (and bc this ended up MASSIVE (like 2.3k ish), but fairly in depth bc i didnt wanna speak out of bad faith and wanted to be EXPLICTLY clear-- oops), the rest will be under readmore

so heres the thing i want to preface: i used to really LOVE c!techno. i joined beginning of s2, right when exile started, and he was arguably my favorite character. since then though i've fallen out with him a LOT, to the point i almost... actively despite him at times (though mainly in a toxic kind of way which i can acknowledge is flawed).

in short, his actions started to speak louder than his words and i lost investment in his personal character struggles because of the actions he took (doomsday was my breaking point. i get feeling angry and betrayed, as well as seeking revenge against lmanberg, but his actions went too far for me to CARE and it hurt so many more characters as well.)

so when i speak, i come from a place of disliking him but also somewhat understanding the position c!techno apologists come from: i used to be one of them myself.

NOW, do i think he's a tyrant? no. for reference in my analysis, i try to look up the definition of terms to make sure they are utilized properly. while "tyranny" and "tyrannical" can have multiple uses, tyrant itself is a more specific term. to combine the top two definitions, a tyrant is referring to "an extremely oppressive, unjust, or cruel absolute ruler (who governs without restrictions, especially one who seized power illegally.)"

techno's position as an anarchist, imo, DOES indeed make him unable to be a tyrant. tyrants are rulers with very clear power over others from a structural way. anarchists are about the lack of structure or power over others and instead viewing the people around you as equals in power.

in forming the syndicate, they very explicitly worked to not designate a leader and instead make it so that no one would have any power over the others systemically. techno may have taken a integral role, yes, but it doesn't make him suddenly "the leader", its a role that wouldve had to be filled by someone (even if it was democratic to decide who to invite, they'd need someone to hand over the invite itself yknow? like no matter WHAT there needed to be A ROLE)

one could argue that he IS a leader in the shadow hierarchy of the syndicate (which, yes, is a real and professional term used in management courses despite sounding like it comes from a 4kids yugioh dub) in that everyone CONSIDERS and looks to him a leader without him having any actual structural basis behind it, but to argue that allows him to be a tyrant is in bad faith i believe. especially because to the people he would be "ruling", he ISNT oppressive, unjust, or cruel. they are his friends and support network and critical for a lot of his personal development (since feelings of betrayal and trust issues are critical to his character and why he acts the way he does). I wish we were able to SEE this develop more, but oh well.

but like i said: tyrant is fairly specific in definition. TYRANNY, and thus TYRANNICAL are not as limited. I've discussed their definitions here. originally, i made that post because i was angry at a take i had seen that claimed that, like you said, because techno was an anarchist and not part of any government or leadership position, he couldn't be tyrannical. to which i heartily disagree.

for something to be tyrannical, they simply must have an overarching/oppressive power over someone or something. it would not be inaccurate if i were to say that something is "under the tyranny" of a concept, because what it means is that something is under the power of another thing/concept. you can frankly call anything tyranny if it is widespread/overarching and you don't like it. mask mandates? tyranny, its forcing me to act in "rigorous condition". hell, theres even such things as tyranny of the majority in which people agree too much on one thing and it gives them unfair power or tyranny of the minority where people with minority opinions have too much power (thats a very grossly oversimplified definition of both, but it covers the base idea well enough for my point)

the point im making above isnt meant to be taken as "anything can be worked to be defined as tyranny thus it is a meaningless claim", it is that tyranny (and again, thus tyrannical) are very open and nonrestrictive terms.

to make it easier to define, alongside the definitions provided i want to add an explicit clause that is (imo) implied in the original definition: tyranny is... well, bad. that is to say if someone has power over a group but literally everyone is fine with it and agrees to it, its not tyranny. thats just a group of people getting along and one happens to have power over another. a leader does NOT equal a tyrant (as discussed above), so leadership should not be equated with tyranny.

thus as an example: wilbur acting as president (before the election) may have been "unelected" with power over his citizens, but no one was upset with that power. thus, he is not a tyrant and not acting tyrannically (as well as the fact his power was, arguably, NOT rigourous or absolute but thats another topic for another time). SCHLATT however IS a tyrant, as his power was absolute (he did not consult his cabinet) and forced people to comply instead of them complying willingly, thus he was acting tyrannically.

now to finally get to the damn point of this essay: where does c!techno lie? honest answer? it depends slightly on your perspective, but it depends a LOT on the future of the syndicate.

techno is incredibly clear in his goals: no governments, no corruption. in fighting with pogtopia, he is actively working to topple a tyranny-- he isn't tyrannical for doing that.

when he strikes out on nov 16th, it is because he opposes them forming a new government. when they oppose him and disagree, he launches an attack against them. is this tyranny? maybe, but probably not. he IS trying to impose his own physical strength and power (as well as his resources) over the others to stop them from doing what HE doesn't want them to do.

however its more nuanced than that:

1. hes lashing out emotionally as well as politically. he feels betrayed by those he trusted and he believed that they would destroy the government then go (i'm ignoring any debates on if he did or did not know that they planned another government, though it is a source of debate). but typically idk about you but i dont call tyranny for someone fighting with another person.

2. he also may be acting with good intent again, in HIS EYES. if tubbo was part of manburg, whos to say he wont be just as bad? he, in his pov, is likely trying to stop another tyrant before they rise.

3. and finally, and tbh the most damning from any perspective: he gives up. he quickly leaves then RETIRES without intent to try and attack again until he is later provoked. tyranny is defined by it not just being power, but power being USED. if he doesn't use his power to try and impose any will, then he's not tyrannical.

Doomsday I am also not going to touch very in depth on for much of the same reasons. My answer is again a "maybe", depending on the weight you personally place on each issue:

1. he's lashing out as revenge for the butcher army and as revenge against tommy for "betraying" him (though this one we explicitly know he was ignoring the fact tommy did not want to go through with it, however he still did trust and respect tommy regardless so his feelings are understandable anyway)

2. he sees new lmanberg as corrupt and tyrannical (which is undeniable: house arrest for noncompliance, exile without counsel, execution without trial, etc), and thus obligated to destroy it

but also, theres the implicit understanding he's doing this to send a message: do not form a government, or else. its a display of force that also works to warn others unless they want a similar fate. phil even explicitly states that he is doing so to send that message, so one could assume techno is doing the same alongside his personal reasoning listed above.

what i just described is the use of a oppressive and harsh (physical) power in order to gain compliance from people (that compliance being 'not making a government'). does that sound familiar? exactly. it follows the definition(s) of tyranny given previously. technoblade is acting in a way that is, by very definition, tyrannical.

so the debate shifts: is he valid in doing so because he is trying to PREVENT corruption and tyranny. like i said, new lmanberg was undeniably corrupt at points. i held nothing against techno for trying to topple manburg, so does that apply to new lmanberg as well? short answer: i dont know. it depends on your specific opinion of what is acceptable. its like the paradox of tolerance: to have a truly tolerant society, you have to be intolerant of intolerance. to have a truly non-tyrannical society, do you need to have a tyranny enforcing it?

personally (and bc im a lmanberg loyalist /hj) i say it is. regardless of the corruption of new lmanberg, they are also giving a threat to EVERYONE. even those who are innocent, they are presented with the exact same threat and rule set: if you make a government, you will be destroyed.

(which, small divergence here, is part of why debating c!techno is so frustrating. so many times you end up hitting a "well it depends on your political views" situation and there ISNT a correct answer there. im here to analyze characters for fun, not debate political theory)

so: the syndicate then. this is where this debate really "took off" and i think its due to one very specific miscommunication about its goals and plans. the syndicate, upon formation, declares itself to stand against corruption and tyranny. when they are found, the syndicate would work to destroy it. so heres the golden question: what do THEY define as corruption and tyranny? if you were to go off c!techno's previous statements, seemingly "any government" is a valid answer. however, he also states he's fine with people just being in groups together hanging together.

what then DEFINES A GOVERNMENT for them? what lines do they have to sort out what does "deserve to be destroyed" and what does "deserve to exist freely"

this is a hypothetical i like to post when it comes to syndicate discourse:

i have a group of people. lets say 5 or so for example. they all live together and build together. any decisions made that would impact the entire group they make together and they must have a unanimous agreement in order to proceed, but otherwise they are free to be their own people and do their own thing. when you ask them, they tell you they are their own nation and they have a very clearly defined government: they are a direct democracy. does the syndicate have an obligation to attack?

there is absolutely no hierarchy present. there is no corruption present. but, they ARE indeed a government. is that then inherently negative? my answer is fuck no (see the whole "difference between a tyrant and a leader" thing above).

but THATS where the issue of this discourse LIES. in some people's eyes, the answer to that is YES. techno's made it clear "no government" is his personal view, but does that spread to the syndicate as a whole? do they act preemptively in case it DOES become corrupt? is it inherently corrupt because its a government, regardless of how it is ruled? the fact of the matter is because of how little we've seen the syndicate work as a SYNDICATE, we don't know that answer. so we're left to debate and speculate HOW they would act.

if the syndicate were to let that government exist, then they are not tyrannical. they are showing that they are working to stop tyranny and corruption, just like in pogtopia again.

if the syndicate were to destroy/attack that government, then they are tyrannical. simple as that. they are enforcing a rule of their own creation without any nuance or flexibility under the threat of absolute destruction.

miscommunication in debates comes, in my opinion, in the above. of course theres more points of nuance. for example:

would the syndicate allow a government like i had described with early lmanberg, where there is an established hierarchy but everyone in the country consents to said leadership? on one hand, there is no tyranny or corruption present which is what they are trying to work against. on the other hand, theres more a possibility of it occuring. perhaps they'd find a middle road between the two binary options of "leave or destroy" i am presenting, such as checking in occasionally to ensure no corruption occurs.

but if they were to destroy it without, for lack of a better word, "giving it a chance" they would be, in my opinion, tyrannical. they would be going aginst their words of opposing corruption and instead abusing their power to gain compliance.

your/others opinions may differ, again it depends on if you see it as worth it to possibly stop future tyranny or if a hierarchy is INHERENTLY a negative thing.

part of the reason so many blog gave up this debate, beyond not getting very clear answers for the syndicate, is because of the nuance present. there. is. no. right. answer. every single person will view it differently, because there is no universally agreed upon truth of right or wrong here. BUT, i hope this helps shed some light on the discussion and my thoughts on it

#dream smp #mcyt #techno #syndicate analysis #YEAH IM MAINTAGGING WHAT OF IT #also i-- idk if it should be crit tagged? i tried to be as fair and open as possible #lemme know what yall think #ANYWAY ANON IM SO FUCKING SORRY THIS THING ENDED UP 2.3K WORDS LONG #I JUST RLLY WNATED TO BE THOUROUGH AND AS FUCKING CENTRIST /HJ AS POSSIBLE FJDKSLFJ #its very nuanced and theres no right answer but you sure as hell know mine now #answered #anon #im at work rn im gonna get fucking fired for this FJDKSFJKL #/HJ HOPEFULLY IN THAT I AM AT WORK BUT I WONT GET FIRED #og post #(jeb bush voice) please clap

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ectonurites · 3 years

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do u have any thoughts on the whole “tim is zapped to time prison” storyline? bc i feel like it could have been pretty interesting and a good way to bring back young justice/tim’s memories more immediately if it hadn’t been such a blatant attempt to just get tim out of storylines bc they had no ideas for his character

sorry lol u don’t have to respond i just kind of wish people talked about this storyline more? and the fact that tim lowkey became one of the only people in dc with knowledge of the other timelines (i think so at least) and nobody really addressed it?? like going into the next phase where people learn about other timelines after death metal.... tim should already know some of this stuff right?

YES YES YES OKAY LETS TALK ABOUT THIS this got incredibly long because I just have a lot to say (and i included screenshots) and i prob got a little off topic but. but lets get started anyways:

i haven’t read that particular storyline in a few months so i might be missing/misremembering some details here, but that whole ‘time prison + future tim’ thing was like. a really really interesting concept and the implications/impacts it has are a big part of why i liked tynion’s detective comics run as much as i did even with it’s flaws in characterization (such as treating tim like he was jimmy neutron boy genius and making steph..... be all ready to quit/breakaway from the team like that. the steph quitting characterization really started i think in batgirl convergence and unfortunately has haunted her since, even though pre reboot never giving up was like...... one of her defining traits. dc i hate you sometimes)

i think that one of the biggest things that bothers me about the situation is how little we saw most of the other characters in the batfamily grieve (aside from steph and some with bruce, but again the way steph was portrayed just... hhhhhh. it very much reduced her to ‘tims girlfriend’ more than i’d have preferred) but otherwise like...as far as I can remember there was maybe one line in that monsters crossover thing where dick mentioned tim was gone, jason had a single line about avoiding the funeral in rhato, i dont think they showed any reaction from babs at all until after he was back, and the most for damian I recall is at the end of the 2014 teen titans run (#24) where he looks at... a case with the old red robin uniform Tim wasn’t even wearing anymore when he died? and that just bugs me. Instead of getting to see the actual funeral we get one flashback to it way after the fact once Bruce already knows Tim’s not actually dead

But at the time when they all DID think he was dead? the closest thing we see was in that same teen titans issue (#24) there’s a memorial-type ‘sharing stories’ thing after the funeral with tim’s titans friends but.... we don’t see something like that with his family. tim is a major presence in these peoples’ lives, they are his family, when he gets sent into time prison its even SAID how loved he apparently is

its just... idk. they all thought he was dead, and if they had put more emphasis on showing not just telling how that effected EVERYONE (not just steph) in the batfam, it might have felt a lot less like they were just putting tim away until there was a story idea for him. (like obviously I know they can’t make everyone’s stories revolve around Tim, but I’d have way preferred a detective comics issue of the funeral/memorial with the family than having there only be a teen titans one, I think it would have... held more relevance & meaning... but instead they just went right into that monster crossover story instead of lingering on this)

but then the Tim story itself once it does pick up way later, with titans tomorrow/future tim coming along having that whole “tell conner you’re sorry” “who’s conner?” exchange with current tim... that opens up A LOT of things to think about, and I think was pretty interestingly done if i’m remembering correctly. future tim recognizes the timelines are different, and ya know goes off to try to change things further ("whaddaya got there?” “a gun to kill batwoman” “NO!!!!”), theres lots of fighting etc etc the good guys win as we expect, but once that’s all settled tim’s left there with this whole. thought process

which ya know is the big indicator there’s weird timeline/reality fuckery going on (or also the read here can be that tim and kon are so connected across all space and time that their bond can transcend anything even timelines and realities and reboots... “and they were soulmates” “oh my god they were soulmates”)

ANYWAYS lets not forget that tim isnt the only one who learns about this other timeline stuff during this whole situation!

Brother Eye has records of future tim’s timeline, and cass & steph see who they used to be! and as soon as steph finds out ‘holy shit i was ROBIN and BATGIRL?’ she also desperately wants to know more! which then a bit later leads into young justice 2019 where instead of going off to college like they told Bruce they were gonna, Steph and Tim go get the help of Zatanna to see what might be going on in their brains with these timelines and weird feelings (as we see in flashback form in yj 2019 #5)

and HOO BOY DOES SHE FIND THINGS! she gets in there and finds out that oh yeah, their brains had very much so been tampered with, and with her magic she undoes some of it, by unlocking memories, and Tim finally remembers Conner! (also in case u were wondering, that panel is specifically a callback to this one from yj 1998 #17 when Cissie quit the team)

one thing that I think is weird/interesting/idk if it gets... properly addressed even, was that Zatanna also poked around Steph’s brain too and she didn’t remember everything? Might have something to do even with how Tim had been in time prison, might have taken less work from Z to open things up because of that? Who knows

additionally i wanna call attention to how he said “That entire chapter of my life” which... leading into my next point a bit... strongly leads me to believe even though he’s remembering some things he definitely does not have ALL of his memories back (because theres a lot more than just the young justice ‘chapter’ of tim’s life that was drastically changed by the new 52 & rebirth)

BUT moving on, i wanna bring up this part from later on (after they figured out that there was a crisis that caused things in the world to change, which is why their memories/brains were messed with) in issue #16

so yeah, I think it’s indicated even though Zatanna brought back some memories and opened up his brain a bit, there’s still many holes, and some things seem more like dreams rather than memories and he’s probably unable to tell which are which on his own to some extent. (also for reference the real thing that Tim thought was just a dream is... likely yj 1998 issue #1)

So based on the things i’ve brought up here (which are the things I remember off the top of my head, I could easily be accidentally leaving shit out LMAO i haven’t fully read through any of these books in at least 3 or more months now) I think it’s safe to assume that Tim definitely has a head start on getting back his memories before Death Metal happens, but that it was by no means a complete thing. So the after effects of Death Metal are probably just gonna... be a little less drastic for him vs most other people because it was already happening, but it’ll be kinda filling in the remaining gaps?

And like you said he is absolutely one of the few people that already knew about about the timelines/the fact that these crises have happened and changed things, but pretty much all the other young justice characters are also aware that there was meddling in the timeline/that multiple timelines and alternate universes like this exist since they were all together as a group when it got explained (in like. yj 2019 #15 i believe is where most of the explaining happens) (and cass as well is aware of things to some extent because of her and steph’s interaction with Brother Eye) but the difference is that Zatanna didn’t go into everyone’s brains, so they aren’t dealing with the same memory things as Tim (and possibly Steph? because again Z DID go in her brain, she just wasn’t able to unlock all the same things as she did with Tim)

but yeah in general i SO wish this was explored more, both in canon and in fanworks (fanworks tho... that can still happen >:3c). Memories hazily coming in for Tim while Kon and Bart are able to confirm or deny things, him dealing with conflicting memories and feelings about his past as they trickle in... like I think we’ll start to see these types of things moving forward across a lot of titles with Infinite Frontier (i BELIEVE dont quote me on this but I BELIEVE the person writing Damian’s upcoming solo had mentioned in an interview that the memories coming back of the other timeline aren’t going to be an all at once thing but will be more gradual for most characters) but the fact that it theoretically had already been happening for Tim for MONTHS and we only got that one crumb indicating it in #16 of it instead of any actual exploration makes me SAAAAAAD

#Anonymous #tim drake #dc comics #meta #sam talks about tim too much #if anyone has diff thoughts interpretations im always down to discuss!#this sent me down a rabbit hole thats why i didnt answer last night it was Suddenly 1am djsjsjs #also sorry no issue numbers on the detective comics stuff but those r screenshots i already had #from my readthrough a while back or google images. so i didnt go check

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