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whetstonefires · 4 years

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Do you think the DC fandom maybe, Infantilizes Tim a little too much? Like for a rich kid character who's main trauma for a long time was a getting left home alone too much there's an oddly amount of meta abt how much how much his parents hurt him~ compared to, y'know the two poor characters who grew up with physically abusive dad's+druggie mom's, or the two that were raised assassin cult's, etc

…well, yeah, I do kind of think that? His whole schtick for so long was being too old for his age in ways that didn’t sacrifice his jokey, relatable teenager energies. It’s weird how little of that we see anymore, sometimes.

And then DC broke him and discarded him and he’s sort of awkwardly hanging around getting reimagined as more woobie with every fan generation. It is weird!

But tbh I do get it. And I think the reason his parents’ failure of him and his vulnerability get played up so much, and Jason and Steph’s sufferings (while used a lot for things like motivation and context) not dwelt on quite so much in the same lugubrious style, are kind of the same reason.

Which is that canon didn’t commit to it. Jason and Steph’s experiences with bad parenting were foregrounded and retconned more dramatically awful several times. (There’s some definite classism in how that was approached imo, and I’m never budging on being mad about DC retconning out Catherine being sick and then ignoring her forever in all Jason characterization because a drug death invalidates a person ig, great message during the opioid crisis guys.)

They engaged and coped with it–Steph (and Cass, our #1 canon batfam parental abuse victim) pretty directly, Jason a little less so because of the dubious and fluctuating canon status of most of the content more specific than ‘poverty, homelessness, theft, parental drugs and crime in there somewhere,’ so most of his parent issues have been focused on Bruce. He sure has dug into them tho. 😂 Rarely well or productively, thanks DC, but it’s explicitly part of his character, is my point.

Whereas upper-middle-class Tim was always treated by the narrative as fortunate and unharmed by his experiences with his parents. Even though they were clearly behaving badly in several ways, and Tim showed signs of being harmed by it.

Tim outside of immediate moments of frustration always was of the opinion he was Fine, and Very Fortunate Actually.

Therefore a huge chunk of the numerous everyone who’s got parent-related mental and emotional harm, but has struggled to have that validated and hasn’t responded with a lot of anger toward the parent, identifies with Tim. The only one who’s never really lashed out at his parents for fucking up with him. The one who still needs it explored, because canon ultimately didn’t.

[editing post to put in a readmore because lol it’s long, post otherwise unchanged]

(Dick obviously didn’t ever have any Issues with the Graysons, but he Angry Teenagered at Bruce so hard it changed Bruce’s characterization permanently, rip.)

The things Jason, Steph, and Cass have been through are dramatic, obvious, and fit stereotypes because that’s what they’re based on.

That’s important content to have, but because it’s right out there in your face even people who identify with it quite a lot are less likely to feel the need to work all the way through it again in fanworks. That part’s there. It’s text.

(Well actually Jason having been physically abused kind of wasn’t? I think? It was mostly assumed on the basis of stereotyping and Jason’s not caring about the man much even as he felt possessive of information about his death, which is valid. I don’t actually know what’s up with Willis now, Lobdell did some weird shit that lacked emotional resonance or staying power because he’s Lobdell and has no soul.

Cass’ wandering years are also ludicrously underdeveloped. But very very few comics fans or writers can personally relate to being amazing child warriors with no grasp of language living feral under bridges. That part of her life is consistently represented in terms of absences, in terms of its deviation from the norm and the deficits of normality it left her with, which is typical but unfortunate.)

The interesting things to do with these characters are often informed by the bad stuff in their childhoods, but there’s relatively rarely that much more to say about the fact that those things were bad. They know they’re bad. They’ve had a lot of on-panel rage about it, as discussed above. Steph and Cass both beat the shit out of their dads.

Jason is, in fandom especially, a sort of Platonic ideal of a kid who’s mad about his bad childhood and really bad at figuring out where to point that rage.

(Damian is a whole other kettle of fish, because he’s been lumbered by so many detailed retcons coming so fast no two people can seem to construct compatible models of what his early childhood was like, and even more because he’s still ‘a child’ enough that he’s necessarily in a different stage of processing than someone who’s officially only a few years older than him at this point, but still functionally 8 and also 20 years older, and whose parents are no longer in the picture to continue screwing up.

Also there’s no question that if he brings up an abusive thing the League did, he will be validated by his current environment about his realization that it was in fact bad. There’s a lot of fic on that theme! But it doesn’t have the same tone precisely because it is usually understood that that support will be there if he wants it. Realizing that his previous context contained things that were wrong keeps being made the focus of his arc.)

The badness of Tim’s childhood, on the other hand, was mainly in subtext. Even when we were clearly meant to understand Jack was fucking up, like when he canceled plans with Tim at the last minute to go on a date with Tim’s stepmother, or that infamous time he came to apologize for not being a great parent and got mad Tim was distracted by a crisis on TV so he flew into a rage and took the TV and smashed it and was like ‘that’ll teach you,’ it wasn’t leaned into.

The story didn’t treat Jack as a minor villain to be overcome but like a sort of environmental hazard of childhood, like homework, to be endured and coped with. Tim said things like ‘it’s fine’ and ‘at least he left the computer.’

(And like. It’s not about having a TV and computer in his room. It’s about not letting a child have boundaries, pointedly not respecting a child’s possessions, creating an emotionally insecure environment, punishing minor infractions in proportion to their momentary impact on your own ego, physically lashing out at a proxy for the child…)

Rather like Tom King later didn’t understand about the punching from Bruce, whoever did that story (probably Dixon? I don’t care enough to check) did not understand how serious a case of bad parenting that scene was. That is most definitely textbook abusive behavior. (It’s a hell of a lot more common abusive behavior than being a lame supervillain or shooting you when you screw up, and a lot more specific than ‘was a thug, might have hit me, dead now.’)

And Tim was never allowed to be mad at his parents about it. It was fine. He needed to be ignored so he had the freedom to be Robin. He deserved his dad being mad at him because he was keeping secrets. He complained too much, although objectively he did not.

The universe punished him for ‘complaining,’ more than once. We cut straight from him shunting aside his disappointment that his postcard from his parents was just to say they weren’t coming home yet after all with ‘if it will stop all the fights they’ve been having lately it’s more than fine’ to them getting kidnapped.

He agreed not to come on the rescue mission. His mom never made it home, and his dad was in a coma for a while. And then ultimately Jack died as a result of Tim’s decision to be Robin, immediately after finally deciding to accept it.

So Tim walks around feeling a huge burden of responsibility for his parents’ deaths, and completely unable to process any hurt they did him as real or valid, especially in comparison with the far more blatant awfulness other people have been through, and canon is clearly never going to address it. Or even acknowledge it properly.

Let me repeat that because it’s kind of my main point:

People are fixated on getting Tim’s emotional abuse validated because that’s an incredibly important step in recovering from emotional abuse, and it’s one canon consistently denied him.

How ‘bad’ things are ‘in comparison to’ problems other people have is a bad and unhealthy way to engage with trauma. Okay? That’s just a really harmful framework to apply to pain.

It’s also a way that both Tim and people with experiences similar to Tim’s are encouraged to engage with their own experiences, compounding the existing problems.

So. Not a form of relatable DC was ever actually aiming for when they tried so hard (and pretty effectively) to make him a relatable character as Robin, but an enduring one for a lot of fans.

So Tim’s childhood is a natural target for fanworks in a different way than the traumas that have been made explicit and taken seriously by the text. And then a lot of that got compounded by the way the introduction of Damian as Robin was handled, and the lack of resolution that got. And his current status as not quite having a place in the family anymore.

So between the level of projection encouraged by that context and how relatively difficult to access Tim’s Robin run has become ten years after the fact, this has led to a lot of fanworks on these themes that are based mostly on other fanworks, and stray further and further from the original content.

So at this point there’s an entire wing of Tim’s fandom wherein this side of him has expanded enormously, and he primarily exists to suffer, frequently in ways that 1) escalate to a point that is inarguably ‘valid’ and hard to dismiss and 2) set him up to rebound from it in whatever way the writer finds emotionally satisfying or useful–being ultimately cared for and reassured by people who value him (the most infantilizing option but like, popular for obvious reasons), or unveiling his brilliant scheme that was causing him to pretend to be passive in the face of mistreatment, or turning around and using his genius ninja skills to wrest power back from his abusers, or just laying down some sick burns about being treated fairly.

But not that many of the last one, because that’s mostly done with other batfam members.

Tim’s become a vehicle for a lot of vicarious coping that Steph and Jason just aren’t appropriate for, because they get angry and they get even. And those are stories that exist already, so there’s less scope for telling your own.

And because Jason’s reaction pattern is ultimately so masculine (i’ll make them all sorry! with my guns! blam blam!) while Tim’s is pretty gender-neutral, the demographics of fanfic mean that the bulk of the people using Tim vicariously in this manner are female-aligned, which has over time feminized this archetype of him a lot. Sometimes in ways I find really uncomfortable, like there’s a lot of forced pregnancy stuff which activates my panic buttons. x.x

But, ultimately, it’s fandom. People are going to do what they’re going to do, DC in their perpetual fail has hung Tim out to dry in narrative terms, and I’d rather the people who are using Tim for victimization narratives over the people who can’t dismiss or discredit him fast enough now that his position has been filled. 🤷‍♀️ What we gonna do? Fave’s in an awkward spot. DC hates us. This is the life in this comic book pit. XD

Also if you’re the same anon who left me a callout about op of that weird Steph post in my inbox, or if you aren’t @ that person, 1) I refuse to get involved so I’m not answering that ask 2) those aren’t even particularly dramatic fandom crimes? That’s pretty normal? That’s just…Caring Too Much About Ships And Disagreeing With Me.

Do I also feel those opinions are kinda bad? Yeah. But I disagree with everyone about something. Chill.

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bigskydreaming · 4 years

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1) Hi! It’s a strange question, I know, but I’m curious: how much do you take what happens behind the scenes into account in your analysis of a character or a storyline? To make an example, the push and pull of Dick’s filial status in the narrative is a consistent and frustrating thread in the comics, but has probably roots in the fact that Dick’s arrangement made sense in the 40s in a way that it didn’t anymore by the 80s.

Its a good question, without a good answer. Best I can say is it varies and I kinda take things on a case by case basis. Sometimes behind the scenes stuff doesn’t really change much about what’s on the page one way or another, and sometimes its extremely relevant.

For instance, your example of Dick’s status as ward vs adopted...I think its very much something where real world context and factors have a ton to do with it. I’d definitely agree that Dick as Bruce’s ward made total sense in the writers’ eyes and didn’t need changing or addressing until the 80s, which culturally is when adoption and blended families became a lot more....it feels weird to say mainstream in regards to that, but it kinda fits because the concept as a whole became more popularized and normalized and likely to have a presence in media in the 80s in ways it never really had before.

Personally, I don’t think there’s really any issue with Dick not being adopted before then, and think it has more to do with the zeitgeist of those times rather than in character choices about Bruce not wanting to adopt Dick for whatever reason. So my own approach to this particular matter is for me, it only became an issue when an additional variable was added...Jason and his adoption....as especially once Dick himself was written asking Bruce why he never adopted him...even though the most relevant answer up until that point was likely just that it had never been a culturally significant issue for their characters to have until now......once writers DID introduce Dick’s own view/question on the matter into the canon, THAT’S when I personally view it was being more of an issue that Bruce waited so long after THAT point before actually adopting Dick.

So for my own take...whether in meta and discussions of canon or my own fic stuff....I don’t really put much emphasis or even focus any real attention on Bruce not adopting Dick before that point in canon stories OR the concurrent position in the timeline....by that I mean, the approximate age I think Dick was when he first asked Bruce about that, eighteen or nineteen. I think there are certainly stories that can be written that involve Bruce adopting Dick or raising the matter for discussion earlier in Dick’s life like when he was fourteen or fifteen....but I don’t personally feel much of an urge to write things with a negative slant towards Bruce not adopting Dick earlier than that because I AM aware that in terms of canon, it wasn’t really an option before that point due to the writers’ own cultural norms informing their character choices.

But once the writing introduced that angle and element...it became fair game in my opinion to question why Bruce would wait so long before acting on Dick’s pretty clearly expressed desire there...and yeah, I think its fair to have a bit of a judgmental eye towards Bruce character wise for still waiting so long when it could have changed so much for the better between them and spared Dick at least a few years of angsting and uncertainty about it.

All that said, when talking about fanfic deviations specifically, I think its entirely fair to consider character choices within the context of the fanfic as much as the original canon. So if a fic is already making significant departures from the canon events of Dick’s early years in order to write the author’s own take on Dick and Bruce’s early relationship....then in THAT context, specifically, regardless of what canon had to say about it and the behind the scenes reasons for that, its still valid IMO for characters or readers to wonder why in light of how much our cultural norms have shifted by now, why a fic about that time but written in the context of the modern day....like, IMO there Bruce doesn’t really have the same justification canon has for him not touching on Dick’s status as ward vs son earlier in Dick’s life.

If that makes sense?

Similarly in terms of recent years and canon, I think a TON of flip flopping and uncertainty in regards to how the Batboys’ relationships to Bruce are described or referenced is because DC or the various writers and editors just don’t like committing to the idea of Bruce Wayne: father of five (or six, depending on how one views Duke’s positioning in the family).

Like, I’ve long had the sense that a lot of the powers that be over at DC just flat out don’t LIKE Dick, Jason, Tim and Cassandra’s legal adopted status and wish none of them had ever happened as they for whatever reason think it takes something away from Bruce’s character or premise and they’d rather Damian be the sole actual son and heir. Hence having not only Damian emphasize the blood son thing but also having the other kids like, when talking to Damian refer to Bruce as YOUR father (which is a little thing that bugs the SHIT out of me, lmao)....as well as being as vague and ambivalent as possible when having Dick, Jason, Tim and Cass reference Bruce to others or address him and put as little focus on them using an actual label for their relationships to him as possible. And its not just New 52 I mean here, I think this was an issue still well before Flashpoint.

I’m almost certain if some of DC’s editors and writers had their way, those other adoptions would never have happened and their official status would just be wards/foster kids/proteges. Which is annoying not just because I’m a fan of the family being a FAMILY, like, purely on a personal fannish level....but also just in terms of narrative....I think its fucking stupid to try and play fast and loose with those relationships when everyone knows damn well that each of those kids being Bruce’s KIDS has nevertheless very much been a thing that happened and exists in most fans’ minds. Like, that’s not a genie you can ever put back in the bottle. There’s no realistic chance of getting readers to just en masse forget that any of those characters were ever officially and legally Bruce’s children at some point. Like, you did that, or at least writers before you did that, just accept it and USE IT instead of pointlessly muddying the waters to obscure relationships most of us view as father/child regardless of what canon has to say about it now.

So for example, in THAT case, I fully believe the confusion about the kids’ various legal status and their view of Bruce and his view of them...like, I honestly believe the ambiguity of that at various times in canon is deliberate. And also, dumb. Thus I don’t feel any need to take canon’s current vagueness into account because I feel there the behind the scenes motivations are extremely relevant...and thus I’m completely content to just ignore them and keep them all as Bruce’s children in legality and heart, via whatever story context makes the most sense for my purposes.

Another example of when I personally feel behind the scenes motivations are hugely relevant and should be kept in perspective...is Jason’s death. Because I’ve read a ton of stories and meta that sometimes victim blames Jason and treats it like his fault he died, sometimes makes it Dick’s fault for not being closer with him and someone Jason feasibly could have turned to instead of going to Ethiopia on his own, and sometimes Bruce’s fault for the division his judgment after the Garzonas case had forged between him and Jason and with that basically driving Jason to go to Ethiopia in the first place.

And like, I personally hate each and every one of those takes because I think its never going to lead anywhere good, upholding Jason himself or either of his immediate family members as being in any way at FAULT for his death and everything he went through after it....but also I don’t like emphasizing narrative or character blame on any or multiple of those characters because IMO it disregards the MOST crucial factor in Jason’s death: editorial mandate.

Like, they held a freaking phone poll for whether he should live or die. Jason’s fate was decided by call-in votes, NOT by ANY character’s actual choices or actions or even lack thereof. There was no way any of those characters could have been written making different choices that avoided Jason dying, because they were deliberately written making choices that smoothed the way to Jason dying because it was going to happen not because it was where the STORY inevitably led, or any of their choices inevitably led there....but because the editors WANTED it led there and to end up where it ultimately ended up.

IMO its pointless to point fingers at character choices when we KNOW for a FACT, like oftentimes we have to guess at writer motivations in order to have an opinion on that variable at all, but this is one of the rare occasions where we inarguably KNOW....it was going to happen one way or another because editorial decreed it had to happen. So I think its pretty pointless even in terms of meta analysis of the story and character motivations to ultimately point a finger at any of the character choices and assign blame for Jason’s death...when there was literally no chance of them ever being written making choices that allowed Jason to avoid dying.

Especially when you consider that literally the only narrative change that even needed to be made to avoid Jason dying, regardless of everything that led up to that point...is simply not having him die in the explosion. Come up with literally any explanation for a last minute save, escape or rescue. Like so many comics have managed so many other times.

Like, there are no rules with fanfic so obviously you can write fic of Jason’s death in any way, and make it the end result of any character choices you want and make it some character’s fault or not according to your own preferences and narrative choices....but in terms of canon events and choices, I think that’s one of the very rare stories where its both impossible and pointless to examine it on any level, without taking the behind the scenes context into consideration as well.

So like I said, it really just varies from story to story, depending on how much or how little writer or editor motivation, decisions or bias were likely to be a factor in any given story. *Shrugs* Thus for me, I don’t really see any way to go about that other than taking each story on a case by case basis.

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hellzyeahthewebwieldingavenger · 5 years

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Spider-Man: Far From Home Thoughts Part 1 a.k.a. MCU Chapter 23

As I did for Homecoming I’m going to split my thoughts on the film up based on looking at it as a film unto itself/part of the MCU and then separately looking at it in terms of being an adaptation.

However in trying to write the former section I soon realized it was more practical to further partition coverage of the film.

Because MCU films can be looked at not merely as part of a film trilogy/quadrilogy (or as the latest chapter in a specific character’s arc) but as installments in the wider MCU story. Spider-Man: Far From Home is in essence simultaneously ‘Marvel Cinematic Universe Spider-Man 2′ and ‘Marvel Cinematic Universe Part 23′. And those two lenses do affect how you evaluate the film.

So as such I’m going to have three sections across...however many parts it takes. These posts are something of a stream of consciousness so I’m aiming for 3 parts but we’ll see what happens.

Let’s start with how this stacks up as the latest installment in the MCU Saga.

On a scale of Iron Man 3/The Dark World/Captain Marvel to Winter Soldier/Civil War/Endgame, Far From Home sits comfortably in a middling position, much like its predecessor.

Like Homecoming it’s a mostly entertaining time killer, decent popcorn fun...just not quite as high quality popcorn fun as say Avengers 2012 or Iron Man 2008.

Speaking of Iron Man his post-humorous presence in the film illustrative of a strength and weakness of the MCU’s narrative style, hence I’m going to talk a lot about it here.

Whilst the MCU is often touted (even by Disney themselves) as replicating the comic books’ shared cross continuity nature, in truth it doesn’t.

In Marvel comics one can mostly follow Iron Man or Spider-Man or Avengers runs on their own. The shared universe is there and comes into play at times, but really you don’t need to follow everything.

With the MCU, whilst a lot of the films are accessible you really couldn’t just watch the Iron Man Trilogy and call it a day because Tony’s arc plays out across other films too, it climaxes 5+ years after his last solo film. In essence the MCU is like a TV show wherein you get 2-3 episodes per year and the season finales are the Avengers movies.

This is relevant to Far From Home because, despite what anyone tells you, this is the start of Phase/Season 4 and it feels that way (it more or less states that to you at the start of the movie). As such the film acts as MCU Spider-Man 2 but also MCU Chapter 23/MCU Book 4 Chapter 1 and HAS to address the fallout of the last episode/chapter/season finale.

Thus Peter’s arc in FFH gets hijacked as a kind of Endgame/Tony Stark post-mortem...sorta. We’ll talk more about that in another post, but understand that in so far as Tony’s post-mortem does hijack the movie it undermines Peter’s personal narrative.

However, in regards to the post-Endgame state of affairs it is rather unsatisfying, almost disrespectful.

And by disrespectful I mean that as the Marvel Studios logo opens up we have a rendition of ‘I Will Always Love You’ (the Whitney Houston version I believe) over poorly picked out, low res stills of all Avengers who died or didn’t come back in Endgame; to the film’s credit it does look like something a high schooler would make. That is followed by the first of two clunky exposition drops played for laughs and repeating the unrequited romance joke between Betty and Jason from Homecoming, complete with a focus upon Jason’s bewilderment over now being older than his little brother. Oh and let’s not forget the gag about the high school band turning to dust and then reappearing in the middle of a basketball game to wacky effect. The film even makes a point of not addressing if the Avengers are even around as a team anymore, which is likely a meta commentary as well.

I’ll give the movie this, it made it’s intentions clear. It was not going to really treat the aftermath of the biggest MCU movie with much weight, it was going to be a superfluous, light, fluffy funfest. That’s a stupid direction to adopt after Endgame but at least it didn’t try to trick the viewers that it would be anything else.

Now in spite of that tone and approach the film could still explore how the post-Endgame world has changed. Maybe we won’t get anything dark or dramatic per se, but at least we’ll get some information right?

In fact, as much as I had disdain for this film going in, seeing the post-Endgame MCU was what I was really interested in. And the film delivered on that...initially...in the very same clunky exposition drop played for laughs.

We don’t talk about the blip again apart from 3 or 4 quick references, one of which explained who Mysterio was and why he could’ve duped Fury.

As for how this affected Peter, it didn’t. Many speculated Aunt May might’ve survived the blip but no, we’re told very explicitly she disappeared too.

This is very much a mixed bag for FFH as an MCU film and as a Spider-Man movie (yes I know I said I was separating those two things but it’s more efficient for this next part).

On the one hand for those who want to follow the broader MCU story FFH gives them answers but brief ones. It’s the equivalent to simply googling the answer to a murder mystery rather than experiencing the story unfold towards that answer. We had a huge opportunity to examine the ramifications of such a globally changing phenomenon but we simply acknowledge it happened and then press on as though it didn’t. The same opening exposition makes that clear too when it says that they’re moving on.

On the other hand were the film to properly explore the ramifications of the blip it would hijack the whole movie, even more than the Iron Man post-mortem already was.

On the other other hand having everyone of relevance to Peter’s life (sans Happy and Tony) die and come back, keeping them all ‘synched’ with him basically, is extremely convenient.

On the other other other hand it’d derail his narrative in a huge way if MJ or Ned or May (who’s still not ‘Aunt May’ btw because fuck this movie) were suddenly in their 20s.

On the other x4 hand the presence of such a massively fantastical event like death and resurrection (along with aliens and space technology) has already derailed the verisimilitude of his solo films which began by painting themselves as comparatively more down to Earth and ‘friendly neighbourhood’ even in spite of alien tech being repurposed. The same applies to having him go on international adventures; yet another inconsistency between this and the last Spidey movie.

So it’s very much a case of pick your poison.

Getting back to this film as a Tony Stark tribute, when viewed as part of the ongoing MCU saga it’s presence and handling succeeds more than it fails.

As I said Tony began the MCU and along with Cap was one of the twin pillars holding it up, so his death demands examination. On a metatextual level we need a film grieving Tony Stark before we can move on to the next step.

So in this regard the film giving so much attention to the hole left behind by him and how that’s really the impetus for the entire primary plot of the film is incredibly fitting.*

This applies to Mysterio in a sense.

I’ll talk more about his place when compared to certain other villains in a future instalment, but in the context of this movie his role as a kind of evil Iron Man/pretender to Iron Man’s throne works well. In fact he’s an exceptionally great villain...for Iron Man.** You see where I’m going with this, but that’s for another post.

Lets switch gears a little and discuss another wider MCU element, Nick Fury. At certain points of the film I felt Fury was out of character and a huge jerk. But twist at the end that it was actual Talos mitigated all that, it made sense. It also addressed another huge problem I was having with the movie up until that point, the absence of other heroes.

Like in the trailers the movie takes strides to address why Thor, Captain Marvel and Doctor Strange can’t help out against the Elementals. But of course this leaves the huge problem of literally everyone else. You could make a case for Falcon and Winter Soldier being of little use against such seemingly powerful foes like the Elementals, but what about Scarlet Witch, Black Panther, Valkyrie, etc? Thankfully the Talos reveal addresses this as Talos is ultimately not Nick Fury so wouldn’t have access to all those heroes.

It also sets up for future films, implying the Kree/Skrull War is far from over and that we will soon be seeing S.W.O.R.D.

Really that’s all there is to say about the movie moving forward into the MCU.

We get answers but they’re underwhelming and unsatisfying whilst getting a movie grieving Tony Stark and making the audience feel his loss.

If only Spider-Man himself seemed to feel as upset...

*Too bad all the comedy and light teen drama crap undermines it.

**In fact the entire villainous crew and villain scheme revolves around Iron Man’s legacy. I guess that makes this film also a.k.a. Iron Man in Memoriam

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secretlystephaniebrown · 6 years

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I'm new to the Batman comics and was wondering if you could answer a question? I saw another blog talking about Batman adopting kids and how it helped him recover which I follow for the most part. But then they said he relapsed after Jason. What happened to Jason? I don't mind spoilers, it helps me get through the darker parts.

… oh gosh you poor soul.

Okay so um.

Well first of all let me start off with saying that if you can find it, you should track down the animated movie Under the Red Hood. It’s a very solid, if streamlined, adaptation of everything I’m about to tell you, and it probably will do a better job than I ever could.

Let’s continue this under the cut, because this got long, and I have pictures, some of which will be… unpleasant, as will be the topics discussed. Warnings for violence, death, and references to sexual assault below!

Now, since you’re new to comics, I’ll give you a quick rundown.

(Batman (1940-2011) #368)

Jason Todd was the second Robin, and he had the misfortune of being the first attempt to make the role a legacy.

He was a very controversial figure. Dick Grayson was widely beloved, and while Jason had his fans, he also was present in a time in comics when many people, both among the readers and the writers for DC, believed that kid sidekicks weren’t dark enough, and fans of Dick often found Jason to be unlikable and too edgy. Jason smoked, he was lower-class and drew attention to a lot of the less palatable parts of Gotham, his mother died of a drug overdose, and he became Robin by stealing the tires off the Batmobile.

(Batman (1940-2011) #408)

And infamously, towards the end of his run as Robin, he might have possibly killed a rapist who would have gotten off otherwise because of diplomatic immunity.

Batman (1940-2011) #424

… yeah. That was a thing.

A lot of Jason’s “bad Robin” stuff which he has become slightly infamous for was in fact retconned in after… everything else, but, as seen in this story above, Jason was a character who was pushing a lot of traditional boundaries in Batman comics, and the violence and temper were there from the beginning, but it was presented as something that Jason was relatively in control of, and that Bruce was helping him with.

(Batman (1940-2011) #411 - for context, Two Face killed Jason’s father)

But Jason had some bright spots; he joined the Teen Titans briefly, he was Robin present for For the Man Who Has Everything, one of the most famous comic stories during that time, and had a pretty decent relationship with Dick Grayson (which… they retconned later.)

(Batman (1940-2011) #416)

And then, in 1988, one bright DC executive decided to try a gimmick to drum up publicity for the upcoming storyline Batman: A Death in the Family. (Because those always work out well.) It was decided that in the upcoming story, they would have a phone poll, to see if Robin lived or died.

The vote was taken, and the people spoke. Jason was to die.

(I’ll note here that there’s a LOT of controversy about the vote; apparently there was a robo-calling scam, people were charged per-call so younger readers couldn’t vote, people weren’t sure if the question pertained to Dick or Jason, and some people voted just to see if DC would actually do that.)

So Jason undertook a rather fascinating story where he discovered that the woman who had raised him wasn’t his birth mother, and began to track down his birth mother. After a few false leads, including Lady Shiva, he eventually tracked down his birth mother, Sheila Haywood, who was a volunteer doctor in Ethiopia. Jason and her had a relatively cute reunion, before it was revealed that Sheila was involved with the Joker, who was blackmailing her.

Batman (1940-2011) #427

Jason, against Bruce’s advice, revealed his identity as Robin to Sheila and offered to help. She then lured him into a trap, where the Joker beat Jason to near-death with a crowbar.

(Batman (1940-2011) #427)

While she smoked a cigarette.

Batman (1940-2011) #427

The Joker double-crossed Sheila, because he’s the Joker, and left her and Jason both to die in the warehouse with a bomb. Despite his injuries, Jason tried to rescue Sheila and get them both to safety, but he wasn’t fast enough.

(For the record, anyone who blames Jason for his death here can fight me. He was trying to help his mother, and it bothers me a lot that most interpretations cut out this angle.)

(Batman (1940-2011) #427)

Sheila, possibly having some regrets, managed to tell Bruce that Jason had tried to save her before she died. Jason had no such opportunity to exchange last-words with Bruce.

(Batman (1940-2011) #427)

Bruce had arrived at the warehouse just in time to see it blow up, which shook him to his core, and for which he blamed himself.

I can’t emphasize enough how huge this was to comics at the time; the death of Robin was a major shakeup to the status quo, and for years Jason Todd was defined as one of the three perma-dead characters in comics. (The others being Bucky Barnes and Uncle Ben.)

The Joker then… went off and had a wacky sideplot about getting diplomatic immunity by becoming the ambassador for Iran, and then he tried to blow up the United Nations. It was… weird.

But back to Jason, his death severely shook up Bruce for years.

Batman: Gotham Knights (2000-2006) #45

His costume literally haunted Bruce in the Batcave in the form of the memorial case, and Jason’s death affected Bruce’s relationships with the next three members of the Bat Family; Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown, and Cassandra Cain, while the Joker became cemented in his place as The Man Who Killed Robin.

Batman: Gotham Knights (2000-2006) #44

Batman (1940-2011) #629

Brucefrequently hallucinated Jason, and his fears of losing anotherRobin/Batgirl/protege (compounded by the fact that The Killing Joke happenedjust beforehand) lead to extremely over-protectiveness towards Tim, and shaped hisentire relationship with Stephanie Brown prior to her run as Batgirl. Butthat’s a post in and of itself.

Jason came back from the dead in Under the Red Hood. (The movie version of which kind of… simplified Jason’s death by cutting out the bit about his birth mom. But the details vis-à-vis the Joker and the crowbar remained the same.) In the comic, we don’t see how Jason got resurrected, but it was revealed in a later comic that, in a major event called Crisis on Infinite Earths, a character named Superboy Prime punched the walls of reality and resurrected Jason Todd.

Batman (1940-2011) Annual #25

Yes. Really.

Anyways, Jason then had to dig his way out of his own coffin in one of the most horrifying sequences ever.

Batman (1940-2011) Annual #25

Jason then wandered Gotham in a catatonic state, living on the streets and scavenging for food, until he and his still-retained fighting skills were recognized by someone, who called Talia al Ghul. Talia tried to help Jason recover on his own, before realizing that wasn’t going to work, so she shoved him in the Lazarus Pit (against her dad’s wishes), which solved the catatonia, and, depending on your interpretation, possibly made Jason violent and angry.

Most more recent adaptations/continuity reboots chose to place Jason’s resurrection solely as a Lazarus Pit endeavor, which I’m iffy on, simply because Jason digging out of his own grave was an image that really stuck with me when I first read the comics.

After escaping from Ra’s, Jason started to figure out his new place in the world. Jason discovered that the Joker was still alive, and that there was a new Robin.

Batman (1940-2011) Annual #25

Red Hood: The Lost Days (2010-2011) #4

This enraged Jason, who set about on a multi-year journey to learn the “skills that Batman never taught him”, before making his return in Under the Red Hood. (Which, I should note, occurred almost directly after the infamous War Games saga, where another Robin, Stephanie Brown, was killed. This isn’t actually addressed in the story itself, but on a meta narrative level, it’s interesting to note.)

Batman (1940-2011) #635

Jason became a Crime Lord known as only The Red Hood, which was the Joker’s original nome-de-guerre. He played a series of mindgames and plots, before finally revealing his identity to Bruce. His endgame eventually lead to him kidnapping the Joker, beating him with a crowbar, giving Bruce a gun, and telling Bruce that he’d either have to shoot the Joker, let Jason kill the Joker, or shoot Jason. Bruce found a way around that, because he’s Bruce, but Jason vanished afterwards, leaving Bruce dealing with the fact that his greatest failure, to save Jason, had literally come back to haunt him.

Jason went on to be a villain/anti-villain of various flavors, featuring in Battle for the Cowl, and the preboot’s Batman and Robin by Grant Morrison, before getting an image shift in the Nu52, primarily in Red Hood and the Outlaws, which shifted him into anti-hero territory.

But that’s another story entirely.

Hopefully this has answered your questions! Panel credits all go to @renaroo, who’s always the best to call up for screenshots.

#Jason Todd #Steph Reads Comics #Bat Family #Bruce Wayne #DC #Steph Replies #Steph Speaks #Anonymous #anon #asks #Steph vs The Bat Fam

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theonyxpath · 7 years

Link

That’s right! Our Monarchies of Mau Kickstarter goes live at 12 noon Eastern US time tomorrow, Tuesday the 16th!

But wait – I imagine I hear you say – what, I say, what in tarnation is Monarchies of Mau?

Designed by Eddy Webb, Monarchies of Mau is the companion game to Pugmire, but rather than playing uplifted dogs you play uplifted cats. We stress that this is a companion game and not a sequel, because it is complete unto itself, but set in the same fantasy world that Man has left. The land of the Monarchies are to the east of Pugmire, through the forest, and there is an uneasy peace between the two domains. So you can play either game or both.

While Pugmire‘s tagline is “Be A Good Dog”, we are using “Trust Your Instincts”, for Monarchies of Mau. Cat society is a patchwork confederation of noble house led city-states, the Monarchies, where politics both ties the Monarchies together, and threatens to tear them apart.

And, of course, outside the cities lie adventures and dangers as well with the ruins and creatures of the absent Old Ones posing grand challenges for the cats. In these wilds Champions and Footpads, Mancers and Ministers, Trackers and Wanderers all vie to prove that they are the Best Cat.

Eddy and I had a lot of fun creating Monarchies of Mau this past year, and we’ll be going into more detail here and in Updates as the KS runs.

Our Pugmire Kickstarter last year was an immensely surprising and gratifying campaign, with some amazing additional projects coming out of the Stretch Goals, and we have lots of great ones lined up for the Monarchies of Mau KS. And just like we did with the Pugmire KS; backers gain access with the very first Backer Update to the Monarchies of Mau Early Access PDF: an abbreviated version of the rules. So you can start playing right away.

Meanwhile, I hear there was a lot of fun and lots of announcements last week at World of Darkness Berlin! Both Matt McElroy and Matthew Dawkins have told us some fantastic highlights, including some very interesting opportunities for Onyx Path, and we’ll go into more detail in the weeks to come.

One of the big shout-outs in presentations was for our own Beckett’s Jyhad Diary as the starting pad for the upcoming Vampire: the Masquerade 5th Edition, which was very cool to hear, since Matthew Dawkins and everybody’s favorite, Neall Raemonn Price, worked really hard with the new White Wolf to provide all sorts of clues and allusions to the V5 meta-plot.

You can still “pre-order” the PDF and/or the Deluxe hardcover version on our Beckett’s Jyhad Diary BackerKit site here: http://ift.tt/2irGJpN

So, a big shout-out in return to all of the new WW gang: Martin, Karim, Jason, Dhaunae, Shane and Tobias, as well as all the convention hosts, who showed our guys such a great time! And a huge shout-out to Ken Hite, who was announced as V5‘s lead developer, and Mary Lee, its art director!

Also, while I’m shouting, to all our friends who attended, danced, drank, and demoed, and especially Justin Achilli, Mark Rein*Hagen, and Jason Andrew from By Night Studios!

Illustration from Thousand Years of Night by Sam Araya

Finally, I just wanted to point out our unsung heroes here at Onyx Path: our editors. Editing for tabletop RPG books is an unholy mix of technical editing, setting knowledge, and fiction editing, and our dedicated editors have been doing amazing work!

One of Rollickin’ Rose Bailey’s first efforts for Onyx Path was to rebuild our pool of talented editors, and already we’re seeing Dixie Cochran and Carol Darnell perform heroic deeds of editing skill that very often take very good text and make it great, or pull together a paragraph with errors that just slipped through.

Thanks to them and all of our editors for their eagle eyes, and dedication to clean text!

If only we had time each Monday for them to go over this blog text…but that way lies madness!

Thulkan from Dagger of Spiragos by Brian LeBlanc

BLURBS!

KICKSTARTER!

We’re going live at 12 noon Eastern US time next Tuesday, the 16th!

See you there! It’ll be purrfect!

ON SALE!

ON AMAZON:

We’re delighted to announce the opening of our ebook store on Amazon! You can now read our fiction from the comfort and convenience of your Kindle. Our initial selection includes these fiction anthologies: Vampire: the Masquerade‘s Endless Ages, Werewolf: The Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition‘s Rites of Renown: When Will You Rage 2, Mage: The Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition‘s Truth Beyond Paradox, Chronicles of Darkness‘ God Machine Chronicle, Mummy: The Curse‘s Curse of the Blue Nile, and Beast: The Primordial‘s The Primordial Feast!

BUNDLE OF HOLDING:

The Vampire 20th Anniversary Edition Bundle of Holding is in its LAST WEEK, and what a fantastic deal they have on our V20 line of PDFs! Plus, a percentage of every sale goes to charity! Here’s the link, check it out: http://ift.tt/2poCr8c

Looking for our Deluxe or Prestige Edition books? Here’s the link to the press release we put out about how Onyx Path is now selling through Indie Press Revolution: http://ift.tt/1ZlTT6z

You can now order wave 2 of our Deluxe and Prestige print overrun books, including Deluxe Mage 20th Anniversary, and Deluxe V20 Dark Ages!

Sailing out of the dark, the V20 Dark Ages Companion Advance PDF glides in this Wednesday on DriveThruRPG.com!

Bill Bridge’s new W20 novel, The Song of Unmaking, is on sale in PDF/ePub/PoD versions on DriveThruRPG.com: http://ift.tt/2qXQH9f and in ebook form on Amazon: http://ift.tt/2qpQM2V !

The fabric of reality is cracking. Fissures appear in thin air, glowing with balefire. Something is scratching on the other side, pressing, beginning to break through….

The Wyrm’s corruption finds its way into the hearts of humans and Garou alike. Even an ultra-rational techno-cratic scientist can fall sway to its lies. Channeling his hate and resentment through the most sophisticated machine ever created, Basil Czajka has turned a tool designed to peer deep into the heart of the quantum universe into a nursery for the hatching of a horror — a creature whose birth cry is destined to unmake Gaia’s Song of Creation.

The only ones standing in his way are One-Song, a bro-ken-down old Theurge, and Lord Albrecht, whose heed-less anger might be the very weapon the enemy needs to crack the egg and free the Unmaker.

The Chronicles of Darkness: Dark Eras Companion has arrived in PDF and PoD physical book versions at DriveThruRPG.com! http://ift.tt/2pygIL7

The Dark Eras Companion presents eleven new Eras for the Chronicles of Darkness. Stretching from Ancient Rome and Egypt through the Black Death, the Thirty Years War, the Reconstruction, and the Russian Revolution, the Companion showcases even more of the secret history of this eldritch world. Included in each era are “snapshots” of the various supernatural creatures, including vampires, changelings, mummies, and demons. Also included are lists of inspirational media to help you put these Eras in context for your troupe.

Open the Dark Eras Companion and take another look back in time.

V20 Lore of the Bloodlines awaits in PDF and physical book PoD versions on DriveThruRPG.com!

http://ift.tt/2pj8UuA

Lore of the Bloodlines is a single volume (created via Kickstarter) that revisits some of the bloodlines in Vampire: The Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition, providing story hooks, character concepts, history, and bloodline-specific rules. The secrets of the Baali, Daughters of Cacophony, Gargoyles, Harbingers of Skulls, Kiasyd, Salubri, Samedi, and True Brujah are now yours.

Lore of the Bloodlines includes:

• The history, lore, and nightly practices of nine bloodlines, told from the perspective of the Kindred themselves.

• New combo Disciplines, powers, Merits, Flaws, and other rules specific to each bloodline.

• Revisions and updates of more classic Vampire: The Masquerade material to V20.

Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes for Beast: the Primordial, PoD and PDF versions is now on sale on DTRPG.com!

http://ift.tt/2j7p7lO

This book includes:

An in-depth look at how Heroes hunt and what makes a Hero, with eleven new Heroes to drop into any chronicle.

A brief look at why Beasts may antagonize one another, with seven new Beasts to drop into any chronicle.

Rules for Insatiables, ancient creatures born of the Primordial Dream intent on hunting down Beasts to fill a hunger without end, featuring six examples ready to use in any chronicle.

From the massive Chronicles of Darkness: Dark Eras main book, we have pulled this single chapter, Dark Eras: Beneath the Skin (Demon and Skinchangers 1486-1502 Aztec Empire). Ahuitzotl sits on the throne at the height of the Aztec Empire, overseeing his sorcerer-priests’ sacrifices and the endless flower wars his jaguar and eagle warriors carry out in his name to keep the altars well-supplied with victims. The gears of the Aztec Empire turn smoothly and inexorably, but not everything is what it pretends to be. Skinchangers take the shapes of animals to run the wilds or bring down human prey, the Unchained cobble together identities from stolen lives, and stranger things still lurk in the deserts and jungles beyond the walls of Tenochtitlan.

On sale in PDF and physical copy PoD versions on DTRPG! http://ift.tt/2p79i1O

From the massive Chronicles of Darkness: Dark Eras main book, we have pulled this single chapter, Dark Eras: Into the Cold (Demon: the Descent 1961 Berlin). East Germany erects a wall against its Western counterpart, turning West Berlin into an island within its own country. As the Cold War heats up, demons find themselves the targets of increasing human scrutiny, and begin to realize that the God-Machine’s plans didn’t end with the War.

On sale now in PDF and physical copy PoD versions on DTRPG! http://ift.tt/2p70sBl

Beasts are added to Hunter: the Vigil with Hunter: Tooth and Nail, coming atcha in PDF and physical book Pod versions on DriveThruRPG.com! http://ift.tt/2nwetoP

Tooth and Nail is a bonus chapter/companion book to the previous released Hunter: Mortal Remains that explores antagonists inspired by the Beast: the Primordial RPG.

Hunter: Tooth and Nail includes:

Fiction and story hooks to bring these beasts of legend to your Hunter: The Vigil chronicle.

New bestial Dread Powers.

New Compacts and Conspiracies which hunt the monsters, but also sometimes hunt the zealous heroes that hunt as well.

CONVENTIONS!

Discussing GenCon plans. August 17th – 20th, Indianapolis. Every chance the booth will actually be 20? x 30? this year that we’ll be sharing with friends. We’re looking at new displays this year, like a back drop and magazine racks for the brochure(s).

In November, we’ll be at Game Hole Con in Madison, WI. More news as we have it, and here’s their website: http://ift.tt/RIm6qP

And now, the new project status updates!

DEVELOPMENT STATUS FROM ROLLICKING ROSE (projects in bold have changed status since last week):

First Draft (The first phase of a project that is about the work being done by writers, not dev prep)

Exalted 3rd Novel by Matt Forbeck (Exalted 3rd Edition)

Trinity Continuum: Aeon Rulebook (The Trinity Continuum)

M20 Gods and Monsters (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)

M20 Book of the Fallen (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)

Ex Novel 2 (Aaron Rosenberg) (Exalted 3rd Edition)

C20 Novel (Jackie Cassada) (Changeling: the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition)

Monarchies of Mau Early Access (Pugmire)

Hunter: the Vigil 2e core (Hunter: the Vigil 2nd Edition)

DtD Night Horrors: Enemy Action (Demon: the Descent)

The Realm (Exalted 3rd Edition)

Dragon-Blooded (Exalted 3rd Edition)

Redlines

Kithbook Boggans (Changeling: the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition)

Second Draft

V20 Dark Ages Jumpstart (Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition)

GtS Geist 2e core (Geist: the Sin-Eaters Second Edition)

Trinity Continuum Core Rulebook (The Trinity Continuum)

Scion: Origins (Scion 2nd Edition)

Scion: Hero (Scion 2nd Edition)

WoD Ghost Hunters (World of Darkness)

Pugmire Fiction Anthology (Pugmire)

Development

W20 Changing Ways (Werewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition)

Signs of Sorcery (Mage: the Awakening Second Edition)

SL Ring of Spiragos (Pathfinder – Scarred Lands 2nd Edition)

Ring of Spiragos (5e – Scarred Lands 2nd Edition)

Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition, featuring the Huntsmen Chronicle (Changeling: the Lost 2nd Edition)

Book of Freeholds (Changeling: the Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition)

BtP Beast Player’s Guide (Beast: the Primordial)

M20 Cookbook (Mage: the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition)

VtR Half-Damned (Vampire: the Requiem 2nd Edition)

Pugmire Pan’s Guide for New Pioneers (Pugmire)

Editing:

Wraith: the Oblivion 20th Anniversary Edition

Arms of the Chosen (Exalted 3rd Edition)

Post-Editing Development:

Indexing:

ART DIRECTION FROM MIRTHFUL MIKE:

In Art Direction

Beckett’s Jyhad Diary

W20 Pentex Employee Indoctrination Handbook – AD’d

Cavaliers of Mars

Wraith 20

W20 Changing Ways

Ex3 Monthly Stuff

Storypath Brochure

VDA Jumpstart

Scion Origins

C20 Jumpstart

Ring of Spiragos

Ex 3 Arms of the Chosen – Waiting for the artnotes to arrive

Marketing Stuff

In Layout

M20 Art Book – In progress…

Monarchies of Mau EA – PDF ready for KS.

Gen Con Stuff

Proofing

CtL Huntsmen Chronicle Anthology

M20 Book of Secrets – 2nd Proof

BtP Building a Legend

VTR: Thousand Years of Night

At Press

Beckett Screen – Shipped to shipper.

Dark Eras: To the Strongest – PoD proof on the way.

EX3 Tomb of Dreams Jumpstart – PoD proof on the way.

C20 Anthology – Files uploaded and processing.

C20 – Out to backers, gathering errata.

Pugmire – At Press

Pugmire Screen – At Press

Pugmire Cards & Dice – At Press, proofs on the way

Wise and the Wicked PF & 5e – At Press

Dark Eras: The Wolf & Raven– PoD proof on the way.

Dark Eras: Three Kingdoms of Darkness – Uploading files.

Dagger of Spiragos (5e) – Out to backers.

Dagger of Spiragos (PF) – Out to backers.

V20 Dark Ages Companion – Advance PDF out Wednesday on DTRPG.

Monarchies of Mau EA – Ready to roll out with KS

TODAY’S REASON TO CELEBRATE: Monarchies of Mau! Mew.

#Onyx Path Publishing

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