#Toh critical

[let-us-cultivate-our-garden]

I swear... Belos deserved so much more....

Lowkey...I want Odalia Blight to end up with a much better husband/business partner and being a capitalist queen. (I see her getting with either Honsou/Perturabo)

Cause here's the damn thing... Alador gets too little flack for what he did... and just cause he stood up for Odalia... he really didn't do shit. Hell... It would be better for them to cut off BOTH of her parents.

TBH, it would be funny for Luis to try and "the friendship is Magic" shit on Perturabo (who would NOT listen to any of that nonsense) or Belos somehow getting somebody like Konrad Curze and uses him to hunt down Eda. Or Lorgar getting in, KILLING Belos and making thing WORSE.

I answered a similar ask about Odalia here.

Belos definitely deserved better writing because he's the main villain yet the show did a poor job of making the coven system actually oppressive and the coven scouts are just mooks that can quit their job with zero repercussions. This just makes Belos look bad as a dictator and a villain. Plus, there's his implied backstory and narrative foil with Luz that was stripped of all nuance and ends with "you're a good person because your motives are pure and not a power-hungry meanie."

As for Odalia, she didn't need to be deep but she didn't need to be so basic either. She's largely a caricature that doesn't really have anything meaningful to say about how capitalism supports oppressive regimes but the show isn't about that. So we have the abusive mom who tries to mold her daughter into her own image. Great concept, really lazy execution, especially since once Amity meets Luz, she doesn't really struggle with the expectations of her mother with the freedom her new crush provides.

As for Alador, he was implied to be on equal footing with Odalia and on the same page as her only to be retconned as a distant father who is "redeemed" once he stands up to his wife. Guess we're not going to address those years of emotional neglect. Also, Amity for some reason gets into engineering when she never really displayed an interest in that before. So instead of becoming like her mother, she turns into her dad. Great work, team.

(Also, I don't know who those other characters are you mentioned. I don't play video games).

#the owl house #toh critical #toh criticism #amity blight #odalia blight #emperor belos #philip wittebane #alador blight

[mdhwrites]

Have you seen the leaked TOH pilot and pitch bible yet? IMO it’s crazy how most of it is better than the final product.

I have! And... I don't know if I entirely agree with that.

What I found most fascinating about it is that a lot of the contradictions and issues of scope with TOH that doomed it are still in the pitch bible itself. Just some quick examples of what I'm talking about: When talking about themes, they talk about Fantasy versus Reality but it's as shallow as it is in the show. After all, one of the episode concepts pitched within it features a plot that has Luz literally going "This is just like in my fanfiction!" and being better able to handle it because of that.

It builds up the emperor of the land and Belos (known as Oberon) when talking about them but NONE of the plotlines include Oberon in the episode pitches or even mention the coven system for that matter. They are still barely a thing to the show with the only episode concept about that part of the show being the one about William.

An utter lack of real stakes like how King has to face the deep crises of a decision of either being a lackey to the people he used to run with while also losing any chance to ever reclaim his lost power... Or he can save Eda and Luz and lose the chance to work with these people again. That's not really a compelling decision, is it?

The pitch also claims that the show will mostly be about Luz and Eda's relationship and how Luz's determination will push Eda to be a better person... And most of the episodes pitched are still not actually about the two spending time together. Just Eda making Luz upset so she goes off to do her own thing, just like the same problem as in the actual series.

You actually have MORE characters in this version which sucks harder for trying to narrow things down, especially since more of them are disconnected from each other than before. At least Boscha, unlike Pascha, has a connection to literally anyone in the main cast.

You also have stupidity with your magic still. "Look! I need to work hard to make small objects float!" And apparently that's enough to make all of Hexside lose their fucking minds. WHY!? In 90% of settings, that is as basic as the light spell Luz learns. It's why it's one of the first spells Harry learns.

Oh and let's not forget "Almost all known portals to the human realm have been severed" but apparently Amity has access to one of those known portals freely enough to attend two schools. It's a small thing but it would cause problems in theory.

BUT.

I will give credit to this: Luz is MUCH more compelling in this version. I think if there is something that is just unequivocally true, it's that. She is way less inoffensively nerdy, instead her interests being more upfront and troublesome, helping explain why that would be why she is rejected and not because, you know, she puts people in danger. Also her rise to power is just better.

Arguably, Luz in canon is a chosen one essentially from episode FOUR onwards. Now, this is up for debate but being given a power almost out of nowhere, with no training, that no one else has, is usually a sign of a chosen in a narrative. Episode 4 is when she gets the light glyph. She doesn't work for it, it's not a big character growth moment, etc. like that. She mostly just oops into it. Making it that Luz ACTUALLY has to work for her magic and the show actually has to explore how the magic works, making it so she has something to learn is just strictly better, especially for the concept of her learning to be a witch. Eda would actually be able to teach her something instead of shrugging and going "Welp, good luck!"

I will say that the bible does also lean more into an adventurous aspect though. This version of episodes would easily be more fantastical and include more magic in them which would help the Isles not feel so much like our realm. I will say the fact that there's also active anti-human prejudice also would be good because then Luz being human would, you know... Matter. Not that the Isles is really given a personality even here besides the oppression they're theoretically under. It's still a very generic fantasy setting.

A lot of the rest though? It's really not that unique or different from the show itself. Lilith is almost exactly the same, Tibbles is just Gus but a demon, there are slightly more restrictions on things like being human or magic but, you know, the show didn't care about its one law, why would it care about three? Even Amity, who does look better on here, is only because it's on paper. This is literally just Amity's pitch in S1 after all. All the reasons people loved Amity are here.

Conceptually it is fine but I am surprised about how not only this got picked up but also how it was greenlit so heavily as to get a pilot animatic, with voice acting, based on these concepts. There's just some very clear cleaning up that needs to be done, basic questions on its own setting and own logic that isn't even playing into the comedy/fantasy angles that could let you let it pass. It's not all of them or even the majority but a skeptical prereader could even raise these basic sorts of inconsistencies like the ones I brought up above. After all, this is half a season's worth of episodes pitched and a fifth of them are still going to Amity and more of them have Luz directly interacting with King than they do Eda.

There's a final thing I have to bring up due to it being why I think the show changed so drastically from this pitch bible to its final form: This is way more complicated. TOH already has extremely decompressed storytelling and too many elements working in tandem. Meanwhile, every character is MORE complicated in this one and less connected to each other, necessitating that each, except maybe Eda, will take more time to get through their stuff. The writing team either had to sharpen how much they could do in an episode or simplify and congregate elements. We see this a LOOOOT in S2A, especially Escaping Expulsion, where it seems the writers went "Even with three whole seasons planned, we don't have enough time to do everything we want to, the way we like to, so we need to start cutting and simplifying even more than before."

One example of this that's really easy: In the pitch bible, Willow is a random witch who lives near Eda. Well that means she'll likely either take time out of a couple episodes as she's introduced or take up an entire episode just for herself. Tibbles is also just on their own, like in the show. Introducing both of these characters is not really an option. However, put them both into Hexside and suddenly you can introduce three characters at the same time organically, like we saw with I Was a Teenage Abomination.

Luz just being gifted magic is another element to this. Her having to actually experiment for every spell and having to have a real system to her spells limits what she can do but also means spending a LOT more time on her magic. You can't just have a flower open up and give her the glyph of the day as easily, nor have her be able to throw her spells around as she wants. Making it so she just needs reams of paper and/or a marker makes it a lot easier and simpler to have her start casting magic.

This version of TOH would have SHATTERED under its own scope while the current version mostly bends and cracks from it. However, if people do use this to go "FUCK DISNEY EVEN HARDER!" I won't be surprised. Grand scope ALWAYS looks better on paper than it does in action. It sounds epic and multi-faceted and complex. The problem is that it still has to fit its format and it is MUCH harder to execute on than a more simple concept.

There's a reason the only perfect project is the one you never do because you can promise the world without ever having to deliver. So, while it's nice to see an earlier version, I am by no means going to say this would have been a better version of TOH.

======+++++======

Sorry for anyone hoping for a link to the pitch bible btw. I just don't have one as I got given it as a document.

I have a public Discord for any and all who want to join!

I also have an Amazon page for all of my original works in various forms of character focused romances from cute, teenage romance to erotica series of my past. I have an Ao3 for my fanfiction projects as well if that catches your fancy instead. If you want to hang out with me, I stream from time to time and love to chat with chat.

A Twitter you can follow too

And a Kofi if you like what I do and want to help out with the fact that disability doesn’t pay much.

#the owl house criticism #toh critical #toh #the owl house

[amizuki]

watched the pilot storyboards, albeit only 3/4 of it, and I like how the pilot made Luz seem more like an outcast eccentric weirdo, which is what she's supposed to be, rather than an ignorant asshole who is borderline terrorist

instead of her waltzing into school with dozens of spiders, snakes and fireworks, that she all planned to use INSIDE the building with a smile on her face and not a care in the world, here she instead only brings one snake to school and that's it. a snake that stays with her and her only, doesn't bite anyone, and whom she also later sets free OUTSIDE school. sure, she mentions that Azura is going to "explode out of the snake's stomach", but I heavily doubt it meant that, if the teacher hadn't stopped her, she was gonna pull out a big pack of fireworks, like the ones she had in the show, stuff them inside the snake's mouth and blow it up, especially considering she called the snake "friend" and seemed to treat it like an actual living being, instead of a book report prop, since she had a bag of food for it in her locker.

honestly they should've kept this scene in the 1st episode, at least partially.

like, the start of the episode would play out the same as in the pilot, except Amity isn't here and doesn't stand up for her, so Luz just quietly sits down at her desk in embarrassment and maybe pets the snake while looking upset or something. it then continues the same, up until she opens her locker.

(by the way, I feel like this scene would work better to show the audience that Luz is a nerd, by looking at all those things in the locker, that are usually considered as either nerdy, childish or both, rather than having Luz herself just tell us that she likes to do nerdy things)

in the pilot, that's where Amity walks by and Luz tries to talk with her, but since she wouldn't be able to be here in the actual show, instead Luz would hear an announcement from the principal that he needs her to go to his office. cut to her sitting in the office with her mom already there, and then it generally plays out the same way it did in the 1st ep – the principal says that Luz's been disrupting classes often and have been making her classmates weirded out and disturbed by her antics, which also simultaneously lead to her having no friends. no spiders in class and fireworks inside building – only her acting overly eccentric and weird, to the point where she might accidentally ignore some of the social norms, like with that book report in the pilot and the school play in the show. then the principal mentions today's geometry class that Luz interrupted and says that this was the final straw – not only because something like that happened however many times before, but also because this time she brought a live snake to class, and while it didn't bite anyone (unlike in the show, where her snakes bit MULTIPLE people, and Luz was just like "oops, guess that's where the backup snakes went haha lmao"), it was still a very dangerous thing to do. Camila would react to it in surprise and ask "Mija, where in the world did you even get a snake?" or something like that, with Luz just kinda awkwardly shrugging in response, while looking down at the floor. after that, the principal offers for her to go to a summer camp, to "get her head out of the clouds", and everything else plays out the same way it did in the actual 1st episode.

if it was like that, then, once again, it would actually make Luz look like just an eccentric nerd, who doesn't actively try to harm or disturb anyone, and just does things that she thinks are cool or fun. sure, she might come off as a bit ignorant, with her occasionally ignoring classes and social cues, but it would be just because she's too passionate about the things she likes and gets so much into them, that she might forget the real world in the process.

but uh... the 1st episode Luz isn't exactly that

letting dozens of small spiders inside class, while not giving a shit about people who are scared of those is not cool or fun.

letting however many snakes roam free and bite everyone, while, again, not giving a shit about them being bit is not cool or fun.

and, fucking hell, setting off fireworks inside the school without a second thought is NOT cool or fun

so yeah, that's all I've got

also I wish the "Why would anyone throw it away?" moment with Eda was somehow kept in the show, because it's honestly beautiful and I love it. I don't know how they'd be able to pull it off in the actual show, since Amity was never able to go to Human Realm there and thus Luz wouldn't be able to make that drawing of them, but oh well, it's good that we're able to see this scene at least in the storyboard form.

#♤mizu.txt #toh pilot #the owl house #toh critical #not really that critical but I still wanna add that tag #txt

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

can we stop the trend of putting traumatized and mentally unstable characters into romantic relationships as their “happy endings”?

#this is about catra but it’s also about hunter #THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY NEED. #they don’t need a badass girlfriend they need ✨THERAPY✨ #stop acting like romance is a cure to mental health issues #it’s such a harmful message to send to kids #again props to steven universe future for being one of the only children’s shows that actually promote therapy #steven gets with connie ofc but he also takes the necessary steps to actual healing like seeing a therapist and moving out of his hometown #anyway yeah #as a psych major this trope kills me every time #i just had to rant #spop critical #toh critical

[sergeantsporks]

It’s “being annoyed that Lilith didn’t get an in-show confirmation of being aroace” hours boys

#Loooooook I’m just saying they confirmed 3 bisexual and 1 lesbian characters through pins/patches/stickers #but they couldn’t do the same for the aroace character? Okay. #like I’m trying not to read too hard into it. I love lulu’s letter and I’m beyond stoked that she’s canonically aroace #but it’s a little rough that we had time for one more ship but not a tiny design feature to confirm the aspec character #WHATEVER. We stay silly. Possibly delete this later. #toh #toh critical #lilith clawthorne

[prisi]

I think writers/creators should keep in mind that not just because you dislike one of your characters means you should throw all of their development and potential out the window and give them unsatisfactory treatment in the narrative.

Good nigths.

#belos toh #emperor belos #toh criticism #toh #miraculous ladybug #chloe burgeois #hot takes #its just my opinion #don't get mad at me #toh critical #toh salt #mlb #mlb chloe

[they-call-me-haiku]

i find it funny how people praise the owl house for breaking the trend of redeeming the villain when the show instead took the laziest path with dealing with their villain. i mean, i get it. not all villains need to be redeemed and sometimes, it's just fine to kill them off or defeat them. no character is irredeemable, but sometimes the point is that people refuse to change.

but what they did with belos was just lazy. he didn't need to be redeemed, sure, but his ending was way too anti-climactic. he was such a complex character to just be labelled as Pure Evil™ and killed off at the end. he didn't need to be redeemed, but he at least deserved to be acknowledged as the three-dimensional complex character that he is. he wasn't just a disney-esque villain who did everything for power and had no depth to his personality. he was a symbol of religious trauma and how it affects people. he was a horrible person but also a sympathetic one, because i can only imagine how harmful growing up in the puritan era would have been.

like i said before, the show being cancelled is not an excuse. i was so excited to see all the religious and spiritual themes in belos's past, and all the theories that fans were coming up with. hell, some fans did a better job of representing belos than the show ever did. i just feel like it was a whole bag of lost potential. belos could have been one of the most insanely complex and well-written villains but the creators of the owl house wants to impress its fans, so they pull a "haha we're not like other shows because we can't sympathize with the villain!" newsflash: you don't need to redeem the villain in order to portray them as sympathetic. azula from avatar and simon from infinity train are good examples of sympathetic villains/antagonists who don't get redeemed.

it's even more ridiculous considering how rushed and badly written lilith's arc was, even though she cursed her sister, tried to kill a literal child, and almost got her sister turned to stone. you'd think if the show despises redemptions so much, they wouldn't give lilith a lazy and rushed redemption arc like that, only to render her useless for the rest of the show.

#i need to clarify while i sympathize with belos i still get that he's called a villain for a reason #i'm not a belos apologist #since a lot of people here lack reading comprehension #toh #toh criticism #toh critical #toh salt #toh discourse #emperor belos #belos the owl house #lilith #anti lilith #lilith critical #lilith the owl house #lilith clawthorne #philip wittebane

[qs3]

The way the Owl House Fanbase reacts towards Lunter & Huntlow.

A ship should complement the story, but it shouldn't be the main focus or derive the narrative, especially for a character concluding their development arc. (Huntlow)

It has been a while since I made an Owl House post. Anyway, I enjoy this meme.

#lunter #goldenlight #luzter #huntceda #goldenluz #anti huntlow #toh #the owl house #owl house #huntl0w negative #toh critical #toh criticism #meme

[fandom-discussions-with-avery]

Huntl0w isn't good and that's why

A general compilation of all the problems that do not allow me to treat Huntl0w at least neutrally:

1. Distortion of characters. Do you remember Hunter from the beginning of season 2? And that's it, he is no longer with you. Now he is not a soldier who has been training all his life, he is a cute awkward blushing boy who can't do anything without his boss girlfriend. And do you remember Willow, a kind soul who uses her powers only against enemies? Forget, she'll drive a new acquaintance into the ground and won't let him go. They are trying to forcibly fit them into the girlboss x malewife dynamic, and for this they have to change their characters.

2. Lack of chemistry. The same problem as Lumity: all romantic interactions are embarrassments and red cheeks. But if the girls had a Grom dance and more time together, then Huntl0w has nothing.

3. Willow's attitude. She treats him the same way she treats all her other friends right up to the moment when he saved her with the help of the power of the Flapjack. I'm sure the writers didn't do it on purpose, but it turned out that way - Willow fell in love with Hunter only after he stopped being magically disabled. Or in gratitude for the rescue. One is no better than the other.

4. Hunter's awkwardness. The guy has known her for the fourth year, three of which they are clearly together, but still confused as the first time. He's obviously uncomfortable with her. But who is he comfortable with? With Luz and Gus! It is with Luz that he shares secrets, she understands him like no one else. With Gus, Hunter found the best common language, common interests, and in general they are on the same wavelength. Willow and Hunter don't have either. They were able to prescribe normal interaction with everyone except the love interest, and it's so fucked up.

5. The uselessness for the plot. They don't bring anything, even the very parallel with Caleb and Evelyn is ignored. It feels like they got together just to "pair every character" (except for Gus, of course, Gus is our black best friend, he doesn't deserve our attention).

6. Willow is Hunter's authority figure. There is nothing wrong with the fact that a girl can be a leader in a relationship. But when a guy just starts separating from his uncle, whom he considered an authority all his life, and immediately falls in love with a girl who commands him... This is a very bad parallel. Hunter just changed his boss. TOH is not so deep to develop this topic, and it don’t have enough time, so this is definitely a minus for them.

7. Lack of development. Yes, the series was cut. And now you say that this justifies everything. And I will say that it only makes it worse. Already knowing that the series would be shortened, Dana and co pushed a new love line, which "developed" behind the scenes, did nothing for the plot, but spoiled the characters' characters (as if Amity alone was not enough for us).

8. Hunter is the second Caleb. Yes, Hunter's arc has come to the same place where it began. This applies to a lesser extent to Huntlow, it is rather a sin of the plot itself, but in total with the rest of the problems it becomes no less infuriating.

In conclusion, I can say that this ship is definitely not problematic, it's just bad. No one is forbidden to love them, but they should understend why people may not like Huntl0w.

Maybe I'll write the same thing with Lumity, but I'm not sure.

#toh critical #toh salt #anti huntlow #huntl0w negative #hunter toh #willow park

[owlhousehottakes]

This shouldn’t be a hot take, but- Huntlow is not canon and people really need to stop acting like it is and making half the fandom feel unwelcome

#the owl house #toh #toh hunter #the owl house hunter #hunter toh #toh willow #the owl house willow #huntlow #toh huntlow #the owl house huntlow #toh critical #toh criticism #toh hot takes

[trippy-maskow]

MorningMark Needs to take a break for his own health.

This is for after @moringmark response:

That's perfectly fine my dude, I can relate.

Just remember to stretch and drink water .

Rememeber to take care of yourself my guy, you're an awesome folk from what I can tell, so just keep up the good work.

Also, I never meant to come across as rude or mean , I am very sorry if i did. I never meant to hurt mark.

As i know what overworking can do to someone, i was simp;y worried that Mark was overworking due to pushing out full comics everyday for over a year.

The writing section was there incase there were people who wouldnt believe me,I guess in my attempt of explaining i accidently was rude and mean. Again, this was not my intention. I am sincerly sorry.

I never meant to peerpressure.

This was not meant as a callout post.

Take care everyone.

Remember to drink water, and to take breaks.

#moringmark #morningmark #toh #the owl house #TOH #toh criticism #toh critical #criticism #owl house

[let-us-cultivate-our-garden]

I just remembered the "Please. I don't want to see another human life destroyed by this place” line, and honestly did they have scenes of Luz starting to wonder if Belos' had a point and going into the island did destroy her life? If not, they should have had.

No, they did not have Luz ever wonder how the isles affected Belos--except in the storyboards:

Luz still calls him out for trying to destroy the isles and being a hypocrite but there's still that moment of empathy in which she asks point blank: "What do you think they DID to you?!" She briefly contemplates just why someone would go so far to destroy an entire population and what his mindset might be. Unfortunately, this was not included in the final version and Belos' expression is blank instead of pleading.

Then there's this storyboard from For the Future in which Luz, Eda, and King explain to the Collector how people like Amity and Lilith became their friends:

Luz's line about "people being complicated" is in the episode but the entire exchange between her and the Collector is not even though it opens up a lot of interesting ideas and themes. Without it though, the show becomes straight up hypocritical when it states that people are complicated but reduces its villains to generic archetypes and its hero characters as being simply misguided or victims of the villains.

And no, this doesn't mean that the show should have excused Belos' actions or even forgiven him; but they could have and should have acknowledged the complexity of his character by keeping this nuance in and how the characters react to it. By doing so, the message of "people are complicated" becomes clear and strengthens the other characters as well. Luz gets to self-reflect on how she sees other people and learn that even the worst people among us are incredibly complex and have driving forces that are uncomfortably close to our own, thus making it much harder to demonize them. The Collector--instead of being a Giant Star Baby--keeps both his childlike bluntness and keen observational skills that he had in season 2, thus fleshing out the character instead of devolving him.

Regrettably, that nuance is absent from the show and we have a rather black-and-white narrative about Good vs. Evil; people are only ever really "bad" if someone tricked them or if there was a misunderstanding and all the Real Bad People are just selfish jerks who are power hungry and controlling.

This is not compelling storytelling; this is a tale as old as time. And the worst part is that there was a great story in The Owl House but it was left in the rough drafts.

Storyboards by Yasmin Khudari and King Pecora

#asks #toh critical #toh criticism #belosfanstakeover #the owl house #emperor belos #philip wittebane #luz noceda #toh collector #long post #toh meta #toh storyboards

[jack-fruit]

Sorry but personally disagree with everyone mad that Hunter wasn't there when Belos died. Like you are absolutely allowed to have wanted to see that confrontation but idk personally I don't think Belos deserved that. Hunter already had his final confrontation with Belos in Thanks to Them and personally I wouldn't want to shoehorn him into the final confrontation just so I could have every detail of Belos's life spelled out when we already have enough details to piece together the story on our own.

#toh #toh spoilers #the owl house #the owl house spoilers #seriously i cant believe people are ripping apart the finale on this point #you dont have to love the finale. i had issues with it personally #but like besties!! im sorry hunter isnt the main character #plus he has a major role in 2/3 of the finale episodes #hes good! we dont need him to interact with his shitty uncle anymore #toh critical #well critical of fans #but just in case people wanna block any discourse

[mdhwrites]

Honestly I personally believe Sasha Waybright character arc was better written and engaging than Hunter and Amity’s arcs combined mostly because there was more agency in her arc and while the other two characters who go from enemies to allies to friends just didn’t engage me as much as Sasha’s.

I’m especially dissatisfied with Hunter and how his story while interesting wasn’t as cool as it could’ve been

So I've talked a lot about this in the past but the angle I'll take this time is simple: Sasha is more compelling as a villain to ally arc because the show let her be a villain.

That might sound simple but it's clearly something TOH itself struggled with. One could argue that ALL of the redemptions in TOH follow a pattern of one bad action followed by them being tenuously on the same side and then on the same side. Amity is out of character for her first episode and then Luz is actually at fault for Covention, even if Amity takes it too far. Then Amity is weirdly antagonistic during Hooty's Moving Hassle and then NEVER AGAIN. Three episodes into knowing her and she is now the person we are supposed to sympathize and want around and her biggest crime feels entirely out of character for the rest of her portrayal.

Hunter is similar. His first appearance is not Hunter. It's the Golden Guard who is WAY more fun a character than Hunter ever was and kind of a bastard. Then the mask is removed in his second real appearance (not counting the stinger in Escaping Expulsion) and he is someone to start sympathizing and working with. He is the sad but mad boy by his third major appearance and his second appearance makes him somewhat sympathetic, just like Covention did for Amity... Or For the Future does for The Collector despite lines like "I can't wait to play amongst the bones!" in Hollow Mind that feel, drumroll please, OUT OF CHARACTER TO THE REST OF HIS WRITING!

Lilith is the only to subvert this... Kind of. No, they actually go out of order but still the same essentially with her. Her first appearance makes her sympathetic and not properly a threat because she's still willing to play ball with Eda for a one on one competition, then she spends the second half of S1 just palling around in shenanigans she should not be allowing but is because... Fuck you. Then we get her one truly evil action in kidnapping Luz, coupled also with having been the one to curse Eda but that's also used to show she's a good person now so the kidnapping is the bigger deal here. Then... She's just a good guy afterwards.

This all makes for the most shallow, bullshit uses of this trope I think you can do while being allowed to claim you did it. After all, a key point to all of these redemptions aren't "Then they sided with the good guys," it's just "Then they're a good person." They don't bring who they were as a villain with them. The strengths that led to their villainy are just gone and they're hard to say what they were in the first place, what they add to the narrative in their redemption and joining of the main party because who were they before they joined. What are they actually fighting against as a person instead of just deciding not to be evil anymore or wanting the cookies that the light side offers?

It'd be like if after Sasha was redeemed, she was as bad as Anne at being able to lead and use people. If the show went "To better erase all the crimes she's done, not only will we say Sasha only is a bad person because her father is Ultra Satan but also she now is entirely incompetent in what she was good at before." Amity loses her intelligence. Her plans are always the most straightforward after she starts getting a crush on Luz and she canonically started having her grades slip. Hunter is the most pathetic character in the main cast with I think zero wins in his belt besides his first appearance despite being the only one with combat training. Lilith is just... Sad in how much they reduce all she was for over forty years of her life to go "Now she's a silly nerd girl. Fuck ambition."

And, of course, their bad sides being blamed on mother, uncle, mother kind of for Lilith actually, just that the exposition for that comes after her redemption, and the Archivists and Belos for the Collector. They aren't bad people, they just were forced to spend time with the wrong people. Now that they're nerds and led by nerd Jesus, everything is okay.

There is a VEEERY real problem in TOH of Us vs. Them mentality that comes from these arcs that's really gross. Swap Luz to a white, male jock and suddenly the show becomes WAY MORE UNCOMFORTABLE!

Sasha dodges all of this because no one tries to excuse Sasha. Sasha never tries to pretend she's anyone other than who she is except for when she's explicitly putting on an act. This means everything compelling and good about her as a villain can cleanly transition to when she is a hero, even if it's hard to believe that which the show even calls out.

There is no Sasha's Angels in TOH. That might be a weird one to reference to you because it doesn't include much Sasha but it nails on the head what makes this trope so exciting. To Anne, Sasha letting others do the work while she gets to theoretically kick back looks like the same old Sasha that she now is suspicious of. Someone who is self serving and so Anne lashes out. However, it's not the case. Sasha's ability to manipulate always came from being able to read a person's weaknesses and strengths. She's a MUCH better manipulator than Belos in this way because she doesn't leverage on you or for you to already be siding with her. She can read you like a book and tear apart your pages until she plays with your spine. And as a hero, that's going to mean she's a great delegator. She's the sort who would go "Nah, we don't need to save them from what you see as certain doom. I know he can deal with it." And she's right. Not because of blind faith but because of the same skills that made her villainous.

Something that wouldn't hit nearly as hard, or feel reasonable on Anne's part, if we didn't get so many examples of this being who Sasha is. Of the fact that Sasha uses other people for her own means. And even now, you can claim the same... Except it's not for her means. It's for their needs.

It actually is part of what makes her becoming a therapist so pitch perfect. A good therapist can call you out when you're trying to hide behind something to not get to the core of your problems. They can catch what is at the root of your issues even as you don't see it yourself. They also can see your value and use your strengths to help combat those problems after helping you identify them. It's actually pretty close to how she tried to get out of Toad Tower in her first appearance. Bring in someone, earn their trust, use their passions against their weaknesses and make them better. The only difference is that now she cares about making them better.

Amity, Hunter and Lilith could never have such a satisfying future because again: What are their strengths? Hell, post redemption, that statement stands true. You can call Amity good at magic I guess but Hunter and Lilith are pathetic people who kind of luck out in being useful at times and that's really it. These aren't people who have anything going for them. They're as good as goons with one of them being an elite in a one off episode as far as villain forces go and that's not very compelling for a redemption of this sort. Not unless you're really going to get into that and A: Lilith was one of the strongest mages on the Isles and studied her ass off so you'd think she'd mocked less for sucking at her job and being a fucking moron and B: they didn't even try for half a second with Hunter who I don't really know if they intended to make look as pathetic as he did skill wise.

So their futures are just random factoids introduced during the story. Does Amity being an inventor say anything about her redemption? No. In fact, it really sucks because Odalia would have LOVED her daughter to follow in her father's footsteps because that's the most profitable option for their company. Good job show. Hunter just takes up the job that connects him with the only thing we know is explicitly Caleb related, no conjecture needed, which sucks for a character who was supposed to be his own person. Then Lilith is... A historian. Because she likes that I guess. Does that have anything to do with her time as the coven head? No. Her ambitions? GOD NO. It's just a random choice that puts her in line with the inoffensively nerdy cast.

And before ANYONE says anything about the shortening, I want to say I've done a blog comparing the fact that Amity, in S2A (so before the shortening) has as many appearances as Sasha does in Sasha's entire redemption arc. You didn't need more time to do this better, the show needed to actually commit to its concepts. Actually needed to be willing to do its tropes rather than slapping it on for marketability and to make lazy analysts happy.

Because enemies to allies is not one of those tropes you can half ass. Not unless you want none of its power and boy, these are some weak character arcs. At least we've got Sasha.

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#amphibia #sasha waybright #the owl house criticism #toh critical #amity #Hunter #Lilith

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

their crimes and problems with their redemption arcs under the cut!

catra:

crimes:

War crimes

Abuse of power

Corruption

Reckless endangerment

Psychological abuse

Assault

Terrorism

Attempted regicide

Attempted mass murder

Attempted world domination

Attempted cataclysm

Conspiracy

Mass destruction

Abduction & kidnapping

Unlawful imprisonment

Brainwashing

Theft

Torture

Treason

Usurpation

Coercion

Stalking

Mutilation

Aiding and abetting

Illegal use of weapons

Espionage

Crimes against peace

Crimes against Etheria

Altering reality

how was her redemption arc carried out?

she was only redeemed in the final season and her arc wasn't as drawn out as it should have been.

she never faces any consequences of her actions and is forgiven by her victims almost immediately, either after a vague apology or no apology at all.

she continues torturing and abusing people around her, especially her love interest, adora. her redemption arc doesn't mean anything since she never actually changes.

the diamonds:

crimes:

Multiple planetary conquests

Mass invasion

Mass terraformation

Attempted omnicide

Crimes against the universe

Cruel and unusual punishments

Unlawful executions

Slavery

Oppression

Propaganda

Abuse of power

Mass murder

Terrorism

Ecocide

Genocide

War crimes

Hate crimes

Corruption

Psychological abuse

Brainwashing

Unethical experimentation

Mass forced confinement

Mass destruction

Mass forced transmutations

how was their redemption arc carried out?

same as catra, their redemption was done during the final few episodes of steven universe, and it was way too sudden to be realistic.

they never face any consequences of their actions and still gets to retain their positions as cosmic rulers.

they do, however, seem to put in some effort to change, although it's not clear if this is helpful. steven also does not seem to forgive them.

lilith clawthorne:

crimes:

Malediction

Attempted murder

Child endangerment

Hostage-taking

Kidnapping

Coercion

Malefic

Treason

Cheating

Torture

Abuse

Assault

Aiding and abetting

how was her redemption arc carried out?

she only had to make one sacrifice and that was the extent of her redemption arc.

she is also forgiven too quickly by the people she had hurt.

she does change for the better, and proves to be an ally to the heroes (albeit being an underutilized character).

sasha waybright:

crimes:

Abuse of power

Psychological abuse

Attempted murder

Treason

Terrorism

Harassment

Vandalism

Theft

Usurpation

Animal cruelty

Conspiracy

Kidnapping

Incrimination

Sabotage

Child endangerment

how was her redemption arc carried out?

we only see the beginning of her redemption, the rest of it happens almost entirely off-screen. this was a lazy choice, as we never see an actual “arc”, only the beginning and the end of it.

she is almost immediately forgiven by her friends. there is some lingering suspicion in some episodes, but not enough for everything she had done prior to that season.

however, she also seems to have turned into a better person and doesn't repeat any of her past toxic behaviour.

#i dislike all of these arcs but catra definitely comes first #since she doesn't even change in the end lol #spop critical #spop salt #spop criticism #spop discourse #spop #she ra #anti spop #su criticism #su critical #su salt #su discourse #toh salt #toh criticism #toh critical #toh discourse #amphibia discourse #anti amphibia #amphibia salt #amphibia critical #anti toh #anti su #steven universe #amphibia #the owl house #toh #cartoons #poll

[whoistrash]

Why change matters and how Amphibia did it better than The Owl House.

"Watching and Dreaming" made me cry a lot during its premiere. I was amazed and, I'd say, dazed by it. Then I forgot about it for a while. Now I finished re-watching Amphibia for the first time since TOH ended. My hype died down, and I have some thoughts. A lot, actually.

Amphibia's ending was incredibly painful and made me sob like a baby for two whole weeks the first time I watched it. That's because it was not only beautiful and heartbreaking, but truly GOOD. Brilliant, actually. I absolutely agree with a statement that any other ending would literally be a contradiction to the whole main plot, especially Anne's arc. The girls had to learn to let go in order to grow as individuals - the thing they had the biggest problem with. Saying goodbye was the only logical option, plot-wise. It still hurt like hell, though. Separating the multidimensional, against-all-odds relationships (especially my beloved spranne. Ouch, ouch, ouch). The Owl House does no such thing - everybody stays together. They live happily ever after.

Paradoxically, I think that it's the main reason why I'd choose "The Hardest Thing" over "Watching and Dreaming" every single time. I know we shouldn't really compare them in EVERY aspect, since TOH had way more things to deal with in the final episode, but the fact that Luz got to not only stay, but to freely travel between worlds as she pleases really took the whole "growing up and finding your true self no matter what the other people do/say about you" thing out the door. Luz from season one, episode one, and Luz from the finale are not really that different. Well, she certainly became more traumatised and depressed than before, but in terms of personal growth? Nope. Luz - from the very beginning - was cheerful, open, caring and very selfless, willing to literally help every stranger she met no matter how it would affect her. She had little to no boundaries, but, well, you can't argue that she was A GOOD, SELFLESS PERSON. Now, we could say that her arc here would be learning that sometimes you should put yourself before others, that you can't save everyone, that you can't trust every person you meet. And she learns it! She fucking does! She helps Philip not knowing who he will become, and then suffers from the consequences, because she helped the wrong person. And then it's all erased, when she saves Collector's life and meets Papa Titan (or whatever we call them).

I have so much to say about this. All of TOH's "villains" (Amity, Lilith, Hunter, The Collector) that were given a redemption arc literally get turned into lifeless, edgy trauma dumpsters, that suddenly loose all of their previous character, quirks and sass (well, maybe except for Lilith, she just started to express them differently, I think, but still, it was WAY too big of a change). I won't dwell on it (since many, many fans called it out already - as they should), and will focus on something different. The only one marked as irredeemable is Belos. Good. Okay. He's irredeemable, because he's a white, christian puritan who won't listen to anyone but himself. Also a genocidal maniac. That's the lesson for Luz here. "You can't save everyone. Some people are just straight up evil". And it's very, very true. But.

From all of the "villains" I mentioned before, Belos is the one that had the most reasons to, let's say, take a dark turn. Those reasons are what makes him irredeemable - he's just too convinced he's right, because, in his mind, he has evidence to prove it. But how do we learn about this? Maybe by seeing his part of the story? Maybe by learning about his brother and Evelyn, about their relationship? It couldn't be straight up awful, since Philip literally brought his brother back to life over and over again, he wanted his brother, or at least the picture of Caleb that satisfied him the most. There was more to it than only "you betrayed me and now I will hate you forever". Do we get to see any of that? No. Instead we get an all-knowing, all-doing being that literally choose Luz as "the one" for being kind and trusting, that convinces her that Belos is, indeed, a lost cause. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Luz, the person that on the literal episode two was told that there is no such thing as a "chosen one" and that she can't always hop into action to save everybody, because, it's, well, not always possible, DOES EXACTLY THAT in the finale by taking a bullet for The Collector, the, you know, very freshly redeemed and suddenly cute and funky villain, whom Luz trusts immediately. AND SHE IS REWARDED FOR IT BY BEING MADE THE CHOSEN ONE. BY A GOD-LIKE BEING THAT CLAIMS TO BE ALL-KNOWING AND CAN DECIDE WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG, BECAUSE OF PERSONAL (King) REASONS. Just like, you know... Belos? The irredeemable villain? And then Luz lets go of the moral dilemmas that's been keeping her up at night for the past months, makes up her mind, defeats the bad guy, learns nothing, and gets to stay in the Boiling Isles and on Earth. With her beautifully redeemed girlfriend and friends whom she kept secrets from and lied to out of fear of being ostracised (you see the pattern here, right?) for, again, months.

I love Amphibia. I love The Owl House. But Amphibia handles it's "villains", generally wronged characters and the whole change/no change thing way better. Well, maybe besides the Core - they got a bit wasted in my opinion. But still. Sasha. Grime. Marcy. Andrias. Anne herself. They learn and change. And more importantly, they face consequences and come to understand and accept them. There's no "chosen one" here. Anne gets the proposition because she's the first one to use the music box for good in literal millenia. A fact, plain and simple (not an opinion based on personal motivations), that makes sense plot-wise, and adds so, so much to Anne's arc. Because Anne from season one, episode one wouldn't care. The one from the finale cares very damn much. And that's the biggest difference.

Saying goodbye makes the message way stronger. The more I think about it, however, the more I'm starting to be afraid that there's no The Message in The Owl House to begin with. Luz learns very little, yet ends up with everything she ever wanted. There's no power behind it. The "find the right people and choose to trust them, not everyone will be your friend" and "some things are out of your control, some people are just bad" aspect is even weaker, as proven by basically the whole season 3. I will end it by my favorite quote from Amphibia, that I think about on daily basis. Have a good day, y'all.

"Change can be difficult, but it's how we grow. It can be the hardest thing to realize you can't hold on to something forever. Sometimes, you have to let it go; but, of the things you let go, you'd be surprised what makes its way back to you."

#the owl house #amphibia #watching and dreaming #the hardest thing #luz noceda #philip wittebane #anne boonchuy #sprig plantar #toh critical #kinda? #i love this show too much to fully criticize it but i had to write this #it was cathartic