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angelsdean · 6 months

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I need people to understand how S&P (standards and practices) works in television and how much influence they have over what gets to stay IN an episode of a show and how the big time network execs are the ones holding the purse strings and making final decisions on a show's content, not the writers / showrunners / creatives involved.

So many creators have shared S&P notes over the years of the wild and nonsensical things networks wanted them to omit / change / forbid. Most famously on tumblr, I've seen it so many times, is the notes from Gravity Falls. But here's a post compiling a bunch of particularly bad ones from various networks too. Do you see the things they're asking to be changed / cut ?

Now imagine, anything you want to get into your show and actually air has to get through S&P and the network execs. A lot of creators have had to resort to underhanded methods. A lot of creators have had to relegate things to subtext and innuendo and scenes that are "open to interpretation" instead of explicit in meaning. Things have had to be coded and symbolized. And they're relying on their audience to be good readers, good at media literacy, to notice and get it. This stuff isn't the ramblings of conspiracy theorists, it's the true practices creatives have had to use to be able to tell diverse stories for ages. The Hays Code is pretty well known, it exists because of censorship. It was a way to symbolize certain things and get past censors.

Queercoding, in particular, has been used for ages in both visual media and literature do signal to queer audiences that yes, this character is one of us, but no, we can't be explicit about it because TPTB won't allow it. It's a wink-wink, nudge-nudge to those in the know. It's the deliberate use of certain queer imagery / clothing / mannerisms / phrases / references to other queer media / subtle glances and lingering touches. Things that offer plausible deniability and can be explained away or go unnoticed by straight audiences to get past those network censors. But that queer viewers WILL (hopefully) pick up on.

Because, unfortunately, still to this day, a lot of antiquated network execs don't think queer narratives are profitable. They don't think they'll appeal to general audiences, because that's what matters, whatever appeals to most of the audience demographic so they can keep watching and keep making the network more money. The networks don't care about telling good stories! Most of them are old white cishet business men, not creatives. They don't care about character arcs and what will make fans happy. They don't care about storytelling. What they care about is profit and they're basing their ideas of what's profitable on what they believe is the predominate target demographic, usually white cis heterosexual audiences.

So, imagine a show that started airing in the early 2000s. Imagine a show where the two main characters are based on two characters from a famous Beat Generation novel, where one of the characters is queer! based on a real like bisexual man! The creator is aware of this, most definitely. And sure, it's 2005, there's no way they were thinking of making that explicit about Dean in the text because it just wouldn't fly back then to have a main character be queer. But! it's made subtext. And there are nods to that queerness placed in the text. Things that are open to interpretation. Things that are drenched in metaphor (looking at you 1x06 Skin "I know I'm a freak" "maybe this thing was born human but was different...hated. Until he learned to become someone else.") Things that are blink-and-you-miss-it and left to plausible deniability (things like seemingly spending an hour in the men's bathroom, or always reacting a little vulnerable and awkward when you're clocked instead of laughing it off and making a homophobic joke abt it)

And then, years later there's a ship! It's popular and at first the writers aren't really seriously thinking about it but they'll throw the fans a bone here and there. Then, some writers do get on the destiel train and start actively writing scenes for them that are suggestive. And only a fraction of what they write actually makes it into the text. So many lines left on the cutting room floor: i love past you. i forgive you i love you. i lost cas and it damn near broke me. spread cas's ashes alone. of course i wanted you to stay. if cas were here. -- etc. Everything cut was not cut by the writers! Why would a writer write something to then sabotage their own story and cut it? No, these are things that didn't make it past the network. Somewhere a note was made maybe "too gay" or "don't feed the shippers" or simply "no destiel."

So, "no destiel." That's pretty clearly the message we got from the CW for years. "No destiel. Destiel will alienate our general audience. Two of our main characters being queer? And in a relationship? No way." So what can the pro-destiel creatives involved do, if the network is saying no? What can the writers do if most of their explicit destiel (or queer dean) lines / moments are getting cut? Relegate things to subtext. Make jokes that straight people can wave off but queer people can read into. Make costuming and set design choices that the hardcore fans who are already looking will notice while the general audience and the out-of-touch network execs won't blink and eye at (I'm looking at you Jerry and your lamps and disappearing second nightstands and your gay flamingo bar!)

And then, when the audience asks, "is destiel real? is this proof of destiel?" what can the creatives do but deny? Yes, it hurts, to be told "No no I don't know what you're talking about. There's no destiel in supernatural" a la "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" but! if the network said "no destiel!" and you and your creative team have been working to keep putting destiel in the subtext of the narrative in a way that will get past censors, you can't just go "Yes, actually, all that subtext and symbolism you're picking up, yea it's because destiel is actually in the narrative."

But, there's a BIG difference between actively putting queer themes and subtext into the narrative and then saying it's not there (but it is! and the audience sees it!) versus NOT putting any queer content into the text but SAYING it is there to entice queer fans to continue watching. The latter, is textbook queerbaiting. The former? Is not. The former is the tactics so many creatives have had to use for years, decades, centuries, to get past censorship and signal to those in the know that yea, characters like you are here, they exist in this story.

Were the spn writers perfect? No, absolutely not. And I don't think every instance of queer content was a secret signal. Some stuff, depending on the writer, might've been a period-typical gay joke. These writers are flawed. But it's no secret that there were pro-destiel writers in the writing room throughout the years, and that efforts were made to make it explicitly canon (the market research!)

So no, the writers weren't ever perfect or a homogeneous entity. But they definitely were fighting an uphill battle constantly for 15 yrs against S&P and network execs with antiquated ideas of what's profitable / appealing.

Spn even called out the networks before, on the show, using a silly example of complaints abt the lighting of the show and how dark the early seasons were. Brightening the later seasons wasn't a creative choice, but a network choice. And if the networks can complain abt and change something as trivial as the lighting of a show, they definitely are having a hand in influencing the content of the show, especially queer content.

Even in s15, (seasons fifteen!!!) Misha has said he worried Castiel's confession would not air. In 2020!!! And Jensen recorded that scene on his personal phone! Why? Sure, for the memories. But also, I do not doubt for a second that part of it was for insurance, should the scene mysteriously disappear completely. We've seen the finale script. We've seen the omitted omitted omitted scenes. We all saw how they hacked the confession scene to bits. The weird cuts and close-ups. That's not the writers doing. That's likely not even the editors (willingly). That's orders from on high. All of the fuckery we saw in s15 reeks of network interference. Writers are not trying to sabotage their own stories, believe me.

Anyways, TLDR: Networks have a lot more power than many think and they get final say in what makes it to air. And for years creative teams have had to find ways to get past network censorship if they want "banned" or "unapproved" "unprofitable" "unwanted" content to make it into the show. That means relying on techniques like symbolism, subtext, and queercoding, and then shutting up about it. Denying its there, saying it's all "open to interpretation" all while they continue to put that open to interpretation content into the show. And that's not queerbaiting, as frustrating as it might be for queer audiences to be told that what they're seeing isn't there, it's still not queerbaiting. Queerbaiting is a marketing technique to draw in queer fans by baiting them with the promise of queer content and then having no queer content in said media. But if you are picking up on queer themes / subtext / symbolism / coding that is in front of your face IN the text, that's not queerbaiting. It's there, covertly, for you, because someone higher up didn't want it to be there explicitly or at all.

#long post #LONG-ass post #but it needed to be said!#i'm sorry if you think every creative involved with spn was a braindead asshole but the thing is.#even the most mediocre of writers understands a thing or two abt symbolism and writers working in TV are plagued by S&P #countless writers have talked abt the S&P bullshit and having to tweak and edit down their work to get past censors #it's a reality of writing for television #and the people who understand all this and understand the context of making TV in the early 2000s (to present tbh!) aren't 'delusional'#i'm sorry but it's naive to think that queer stories and queer characters are free to be told even nowadays. it's still a constant battle #times have changed but unfortunately not as much as you'd think #the confession !!!!! the confession still struggled to air and what we got was so obviously hacked down to bits!!!!!!#how can anyone think getting destiel content into the show was ever easy?#how can anyone think the pro-destiel writers weren't constantly having to be careful and underhanded in their writing?#there's a reason queercoding and subtext exist and it's this!!! it's censorship from TPTB #anyways. people much older than me have been talking abt this for ages. younger fans who are used to more open queer rep need to understand #it hasn't always been that easy and even nowadays SO many networks are still not willing to take a risk on queer stories #so creators do what they can #vic.txt

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starsxinxthexbluexsky · 1 year

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The Untamed | Episode 42 [Single-Log Bridge]

⤳WangXian’s Favorite Scenes [8/∞]⬿

#the untamed #cql #theuntameddaily #their faces are a walking confession of love in the midst of everyone and lwj said that wwx was shameless #one of my really favorite scenes because of the brilliant expression on their faces #also due to the fact that wx supposed to be attacked but all ppl there is fans of wx so they allow themselves to wait before attacking #i am also among those who are going to attack them but await their cloying confession #this needed to be sealed with a kiss but couldn't because they are 'misunderstanding' and 'mutual longing' tropes #also because of the censorship but it only makes it more mutual longing #wangxian #wei wuxian #xiao zhan #lan wangji #wang yibo #my gifs #mygifs.scene

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k-wame · 4 days

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lol queer iconography must be censored in turkey so the director of this show made sure it was censored but it takes up real estate on the screen unobstructed. happy early pride month to them only

#a queer chrtr is implied - the main girl's uncle who's also her boss - but they just have his other half act like a PA to him lol #queer #censorship #lgbt #gay #kimler geldi kimler geçti #thank you next #queer characters #turkiye #turkish dizis #serenay sarıkaya #hays code

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knockknockitsnickels · 11 days

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Gundam Horse Girl AU

#sulemio #suletta mercury #miorine rembran #gwitch #gundam witch from mercury #gundam #g witch #i can't draw mechas or horses so i decided to just fuck up haerial (horse aerial) as much as possible #if anyone who can draw those things wants to take this idea pls do #bc i started thinking about horse aerial at work and it made me laugh and i want the vision to be realized #listened to el horso on loop whilst drawing #hope the poll is treating u all well sulemio squad #art #horse aerial isn't showing up in tags this is censorship dammit!!!

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plague-of-insomnia · 1 year

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I will never apologize for being anti harassment and anti censorship and if you don’t like or understand that then you’re free to block me.

I’ll never change my mind about those two things bc I have been against those since long before the days of the internet, let alone my time in fandom.

#I don’t plaster ‘proship’ or have a dni bc I don’t think I should have to do either #but I am definitely not an anti and never will be #I don’t think anyone should tell an adult who isn’t causing any harm what to do with their free time and creative energy #and have never thought wishing death on someone was appropriate #anti censorship #anti harassment #poi og #damn this blew up #100 notes #200 notes #300 notes #400 notes #500 notes

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zeroducks-2 · 10 months

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I feel like a lot of folks who insist that the rampant purity culture in fandom spaces is "not a real problem", and something "an adult with a job" shouldn't deal with, fail to realize that if you simply engage with a certain ship or a certain trope you are exposed to cyberbullying in the form of insults, death threats, rape threats, suibating, self-harm baiting, attempts at doxxing, loss of your livelihood.

Your traumas will be stepped on if you have any, and/or treated as a joke. Your coping mechanisms will be deemed wrong, bad, harmful to yourself and other people, and you will be shamed for having them. The work you have been doing for your mental health, regardless if you dabble in the hobbies you like because of past traumas or because it's just a past-time you have, will be kicked into the dirt because someone is grossed out by them and they arbitrarily decided you cannot express your interest in them.

It is a real problem. Being an adult with a job doesn't give you an "exempt from this" badge that will protect you from harassment if you engage with anything that antis deem immoral.

And there are no "two sides of the same coin" and "two versions to hear" when it comes to this. I don't care if you think someone liking something is "unhealthy", that's none of your business what another person likes. Antis do not "have a point", they never do, their reaction to seeing a dark trope or an "unhealthy ship" are never justified. Hurting real living and breathing people over fictional content is never justified!

#I understand people who don't want to deal with the so called 'fandom discourse'#I really do because 90% of the times I don't want to deal with it either #but you know what I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE #it doesn't matter if I talk about this or not they will still come into mine and my friends' ask box and send insults #it doesn't matter if I say that I am proship/comship/anticensorship/whatever or if I don't - not saying anything does not protect me #I will still like (and post about) content these fuckers don't like and I will be still harassed for it #ramblings #today I had one mutual being harassed and another being legitimately scared to post things after accidentally bumping into some anti fucker #and I am so fucking tired #proship #anti censorship

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duckprintspress · 3 months

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my understanding of the new information on the Hugos fiasco.

#meme #sometimes we meme #as someone neck deep in chinese fandoms who has spent 4 years learning more about censorship there #the way china has been getting blamed since day one has been frustrating to watch #and finding out now that sure enough no it was more about white people's racist assumptions #than about actual china #is oddly vindicating

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mistress-of-vos · 21 days

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I'd make a longer post (and maybe one day I will) but since Lore Olympus, the story that introduced me to webtoons is coming to an end I'd like to say something:

I can't believe it is considered problematic. It has to be one of the sweetest, fluffiest, simplest stories I have read (hence why I still like it, it's a relaxing read before bed) and somehow it got too "kinky" for mainstream. It's laughable.

Everytime I dare to click on their tag or look for the # on Twitter or FB I see people clutching their pearls as if Lore Olympus were brainwashing teenagers into marrying a non existent God of the dead and have babies with him. What the hell?

The fact that people think LO is too dark makes me laugh. A single episode of Rick&Morty, BoJack Horseman or HQS has way more explicit content and dialogue. In fact!!! If it were up to me LO would have gotten genuinely kinky!!! All it does is have some surface spicy tropes that get sugar coated to not make puritans awkward and tbh that's sad. LO and the author get terribly hated anyway for daring to portray the most common female fantasy.

And this all makes me laugh but also mad because you'd think LO at least has some genuine dark themes but no? At most we have Persephone's trauma due to Apollo's abuse and yet that topic is treated as a therapy pamphlet because people couldn't handle an imperfect victim. Hades is a wife guy who shows little to no anger. Hera was re written to be sort of a feminist so that people stopped being annoying about women having emotions.

LO is a sweet, simple story with tiny spicy things here and there that were eventually pushed aside because people couldn't handle it. I wonder how Rachel feels about this, because at the beginning the story was extremely spicy and the only crime was being published in a platform as webtoon, full of people who can't differentiate reality from fiction.

Is LO a masterpiece? Idk! I enjoy the story, it's very self indulgent for me, but I won't go and analyze every detail to see how it should be labeled as it's not meant to be a perfect media. It's meant to be an entertaining, nice story of romance and it does that job very well. This need to demand perfect writing while also crucifying authors over "dark" themes is ridiculous and contradictory.

And I keep wondering, if these people loathe LO so much, why dedicate all that time to the infinte posts they make about how they would have told the story? And all those re tellings are boring! It's always "So Persephone and Hades won't ever kiss here because she's a lesbian. Also he doesn't appear at all. And Demeter isn't an abusive mom! Oh and everyone is ugly because gods shouldn't be beautiful! And Apollo isn't evil he's uwu baby. And no toxic relationships here, Zeus is a good husband!"

Sweet Gaia, you guys wouldn't handle Saint Seiya having Athena in the body of a teenage girl with big tits and who's constantly in the edge of breaking her virginity vows. These attitude screams of jealousy and puritanism and both are disgusting.

TLDR: LO being too problematic for people is both funny and annoying. I wished it actually were as kinky and dark as people insist it is. I'd pay for a toxic romance, but that being said, I LOVE it very much as it is and it's nice to have a re telling that, while not pretending to be loyal to mythology, didn't went for a route of sanitizing all the myths. I hope that once it ends haters will move on and let real fans and the author alone. 🙏

#lore olympus positive #pro lore olympus #anti anti #anti purity culture #anti puritan #anti censorship #okay here we go #lore olympus #discourse #I'm gonna block anyone who comes here to cry about how LO is too dark istg #if you can't handle size difference go back to SpongeBob or something #mistress' venting

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