#debate 2016

[uncanny-tranny]

It's always tempting to debate bigots about their bigotry, but honestly the best thing you can do is often to directly help those affected by said bigotry.

Bigotry doesn't exist to be debated. People who are bigots do not care about debate - they care about humiliating their opponents. You cannot outsmart somebody who doesn't give a flying fuck about their position being incorrect. You will be playing a completely different game by trying to debate somebody out of their bigotry.

The best thing you can do is to show up for the marginalized. Check in on them, talk to them, and engage with them as people. Ask them if they would like help and then respect their answer to the best of your capabilities. Oftentimes, that will be sufficient enough and will go a long way.

#ally advice #the bigot will not rely on trusted peer-reviewed sources. they will rely on charisma and charm and humiliating and degrading the other team #because a bigot doesn't believe in 'you go low and we go high'. like... they're bigots because they choose to go low #so they will use dirty tactics in order to absolutely obliterate your point because you aren't going to be playing the same game #this is why i don't debate transphobes. i will engage in conversation but i do not debate bigots anymore #like do y'all remember in 2016 when the online alt-r*ght started to grow exponentially? that's the same sort of thing #many people argue that debating bigots has the chance of bringing them over to your side but... #...personally i don't really value that as a *sole* strategy or something we should focus our energy on #i absolutely will never debate a bigot because i know the stakes and i know that they'd play dirty (especially if it is in front of others) #inspired by a conversation with my dad where he surprised me with his outlook and views #(i'd assume that we would disagree heavily but no... he actually pretty much completely agreed) #(which isn't a huge achievement BUT we are pretty different people with very different views at times) #(i'm a carbon copy of him but if he came back Wrong)

[klanced]

mx katie klanced are we voting voltron straight through in the worst fandom poll or genshin. your troops await

i am so sad i missed this poll. i am now going to hold you all hostage and force you to read my outrage. i know this ship sailed literally two weeks ago but LISTEN TO ME!!!!!

anyway i cannot BELIEVE that voltron lost to south park. the category was "most annoying fandom." this is distinctly different than "most annoying show" or "worst show," and it is NOT synonymous with "most unhinged fans." okay? for this poll, what matters is the group character and cultural staying power of the fandom that organized around the show.

an annoying fandom must be:

incredibly vocal and prominent, to the point that even the most reluctant and detached layperson still has some vague idea of the fandom's biggest discourse/fights, usually entirely against their will; and

annoying, in the sense that the fandom's presence (or even a mere reference to their presence) is enough to actively disrupt or impede one's ability to enjoy online internet spaces; and

the fandom is annoying BECAUSE of the source material in question.

point 1 is fairly subjective, as it's all based on one's own experience or perception of a show's cultural diffusion across the broader public consciousness. so i weigh it less heavily when ranking how annoying a show is.

for point 2 i would argue that south park is annoying, and south park fans are annoying, but the south park fandom itself is NOT as annoying (i.e., the fandom is the least annoying aspect of south park). this is because i firmly believe you can differentiate between south park fans versus the south park fandom.

[[actually if i can be frank -- does south park actually have an organized fandom? obviously they have fans, i have seen them in the twitter wilds (usually in the context of out-of-context incredibly well-developed yaoi art/content of? 10 year olds ?????????). but is there actually a cohesive fandom that routinely interacts and develops concepts together? is there a collective identity ??????? my gut reaction is no, but this is very much an online space i don't enter, so what do i know? i also have no idea what that fandom can even talk about, other than the yaoi (although you could easily say this to the voltron fandom as well). whatever, for this argument i will presuppose that there IS a organized south park fandom with a fairly coherent and cohesive identity.]]

anyway, what i wanted to highlight is that there are certainly incredibly annoying individual south park fans who are outrageous, vulgar, and vile. so you would think that, if you put all these annoying individuals into a single collective, that single group would have skyrocketing amounts of annoyingness. but that doesn't seem to happen. i cannot recall any specific complaints about the south park fandom; personal stories involving individual south park fans, sure, but what does the fandom actually do on a broad scale?? if there is any sort of discourse or mobilization, it seems to be fairly contained and localized.

so how can a collective fandom somehow be less annoying than its individual parts? this brings me to point three: an annoying fandom MUST be annoying BECAUSE of its source material. and this does not apply in the south park fandom's case.

to qualify as an annoying fandom, it is not enough to be a group of annoying fans loosely connected by a shared interest; rather, the source material ITSELF must be the inciting incident that galvanizes the group to organize and THEN become annoying.

is the south park fandom annoying? to some extent yes, of course. but i would argue that the south park fandom is annoying, not specifically because of the show in question, but rather because the fandom is comprised of persons who were already predisposed to being annoying, regardless of whether or not they had ever watched south park. this is a subtle but incredibly important distinction.

south park's vulgar and vile humor certainly enables its most annoying fans, but the continued annoying activities of said fans are NOT dependent on the show's existence. a shithead south park fan was always going to be a shithead, now they just have cartman to idolize.

i have spent a lot of time talking about south park. let us now move on to voltron and the voltron fandom.

in contrast to south park, the voltron fandom qualifies as an annoying fandom because its annoying activities were entirely dependent on the existence of voltron the show. would individual voltron fans still have been annoying even if they had never stumbled upon voltron? of course. but the voltron fandom was an organized collective of people that specifically came together to BE ANNOYING ABOUT VOLTRON. and then they made it everyone else's problem.

the voltron fandom was like an ouroboros devouring its own tail; a symbol of infinity, referencing the literally never-ending fighting; and it survived entirely by maiming and cannibalizing itself. the voltron fandom actively ruined every online space it entered. i saw the greatest minds of my generation destroyed by voltron.

honestly, i would argue that the voltron fandom's impact has completely altered the way online fandom functions to this day. the voltron fandom capitalized on the momentum started by the steven universe fandom and other early 2010s online fandoms, and spawned an entire new flavor of fandom discourse that was obsessed with morality and virtue. truthfully, it feels disingenuous to frame what happened as something innocuous as "fandom discourse"; it almost feels like a disservice to the levels of personal faith, passion, and vitriol people poured into voltron. the terms "pro-shipping" and "anti-shipping" have been around for ages, but the voltron fandom turned "pro" and "anti" into genuine identity markers.

this post is already way too insane so i need to quit while i'm ahead. but i would just like to conclude by reiterating that south park has annoying fans but not necessarily an annoying fandom, whereas the voltron fandom was annoying specifically BECAUSE it was the voltron fandom. i think the south park fandom could dissolve tomorrow and assimilate into other similar fandoms without a problem. whereas the voltron fandom was like lightning in a bottle; the activities of the voltron fandom are quintessentially wrapped up in the specific details, characteristics, and attributes of voltron. if voltron's characters or story was even slightly different -- if, say, every character was a college-student for example -- then the nature and activities of the fandom would have been irrevocably different.

and that is why voltron is the more annoying fandom and SHOULD HAVE SWEPT SOUTH PARK IN THE POLL.

#at any given moment i have a 300k thesis brewing in the back of my mind about how the american 2016 presidential election #(and general political developments between 2012 - 2020) is irrevocably tied up in how the voltron fandom developed #it's the most batshit insane thing ever. i know. #anyway i'm going to law school in boston this fall!! using my debate skills for. this. #ask #anonymous

[emleighbee]

The beef between Philinda shippers and Fitzsimmons shippers will never not be funny to me.

"My ship is the most important to the show!"

"No MY ship is the most important!"

How about both of you just go sit down and have a Capri Sun. Eat a snack. Write some fanfic. I promise the world won't end if someone thinks the ship you like isn't the best one.

#I survived the great screen-time debate of 2016 and all I got was this lousy Tumblr post #agents of shield #agents of s.h.i.e.l.d. #fitzsimmons #philinda

[raayllum]

Gosh yes, your tags on that last post. Like, I don’t blame people for liking Viren, for enjoying his character, for finding him sympathetic (or attractive, even if I personally don’t). He’s a compellingly written character! But don’t be offended if people hate him or find him evil… he’s the villain, that’s literally his role in the story

"How dare this villainous character do villainous things" / "how dare the protagonist get narratively rewarded for making good choices" like do y'all even hear yourselves sometimes, y'know?

especially when - and i cannot stress this enough - tdp is for children and will ultimately have a happy ending. this isn't a grown up drama or tragedy or even a grimdark fantasy by any means. it's a hopepunk high fantasy story. people who further retaliation and violence and push people into inherently defensive positions are the 'bad guys'

like i love viren! i think he's very well written and interesting. he's a great examination of how we can lie to and martyr ourselves in a search for security that is also about status & wanting to feel special, about the harm done when trying to win a rigged system rather than solidarity in tearing a system down and making a new one. i appreciate his dry/deadpan sense of humour. he's also one of two primary antagonists in the first 3 seasons. and like, all that can coexist? it's multifaceted character writing? we all presumably passed grade 10 english class?

i also cannot emphasize the importance of being able to separate audience reaction or response from what a piece of art is actually doing or saying enough. "this story is bad because it was personally upsetting to me" without examples given or analyzed it is not well, analysis, it's just a currently very unfounded opinion. and sometimes stories are supposed to be personally upsetting, so like. you also gotta know your lanes

it's why subjective analysis is very useful but learning structural (objective) analysis is arguably more important. something can be structurally pretty weak but very enjoyable (frozen). something can be abysmal enjoyment wise but very structurally solid (1984, which i'd argue isn't meant to be enjoyed, either). and it's important to know the difference if you want to write actual analysis rather than opinion based stuff. analysis isn't necessarily better than opinion based pieces but analysis is more expansive because it can cover the subjectivity and the objectivity and more. which is precisely why i can read "the iliad" and think "wow that was good" but if i wanted to write an essay on it i'd have to do a lot more thinking because i'm demanding something greater of that artistic experience by virtue of wanting to expand on it

a lot of people take "art for art's sake" as a statement regarding the fact that art - which is inherently symbolic in its construction, even in what meaning we construe to words themselves - doesn't have to mean anything and fighting back claims that art should mean something. but i think of "art for art's sake" is more worthwhile to examine under the lens of "this art doesn't exist for the sake of capitalist consumption, but amid it, or sometimes precisely in spite of it" and like. very few things artistically have zero meaning precisely because meaning is also "what was the reasoning behind this" and if there is none (think a tattoo you got "just because") that's typically a subjective reflection of the creator and still indicative of their personality. sometimes the meaning is meaninglessness (nihilism is still a creation in response to us searching for meaning, after all)

i'm getting into the weeds now but the point is that there's definitely been an upswing in recent years of people thinking opinions = analysis and while that often is the case (particularly if that opinion is expanded upon enough to be grounded in the text and the text's context) it absolutely is not as often actual analysis as people think it is

#the english major strikes again #thanks for asking #i was in the atla fandom casually from 2013 to 2016 and when i say Head Empty fandom dear g o d #and ppl get very butthurty about it y'know? which i think stems from a general anti intellectualism #bc who needs the fucking humanities and History in times of crisis am i right #but like. legitimate experts in their fields do know more than 16 yr olds online who think #the curtains aren't blue for any particular reason #like to engage with a text you have to operate under the assumption that Everything has meaning and then #parse out the patterns and then debate what meanings are being ascribed #how they may be integrated interpreted or completely unintentional b the author but still very much ther #tag ramble #anonymous #i feel like ppl very much shield themselves with their own perceived intellectualism and #i know so many ppl who are significantly smarter than me and i fucking love it bc i get to learn #it's not a threat it's an opportunity #what's that one socrates quote??? 'the first step to knowing is knowing you know nothing' #or something along those lines

[1morespiral]

i remember back in 2017 when i first joined debating, the first clip of a debate that i ever saw in my 14-year old life, which also happens to be the speech that made me fall in love with the sport, was the wudc 2016 thessaloniki open final and part of bo's argument was how private property, a fundamental to capitalism, is a principle assault of the human. i think earl sweatshirt's mom, prof. cheryl harris does a beautiful job (29:34 in) to actually contextualising that argument and proving the principle through a real world case.

#law school #debate club #speech and debate #debating #wudc #wudc 2016 #earl sweatshirt #cheryl harris #capitalism #private property #history #1morespiral #Youtube

[soft-for-yoongi]

Thinking about in 2016 at the show champion awards, Jungkook chugged water out of the trophies. 🥺 poor thing holding his stomach—I mean fair enough he drank almost 2.25L of water and had to perform afterwards 😃

Bonus- J-hope saying he's going to throw up after chugging the water 💀💀

#thoughts #jungkook #bts #bangtan #stomach ache #sickfic ideas #debating whether or not to make this a fic but I already have lots of ideas in my draft #2016 bts was smth else #emeto mention #vomit mention #bts emeto #emeto

[pasta-pardner]

top 5 worst westerns >:3

Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate (1980)

Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate (1980)

Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate (1980)

Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate (1980)

Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate (1980)

Ok but in all honesty.

Michael Cimino's Heaven's Gate (1980)

Bronco Billy (1980)

Paint Your Wagon (1969)

The Return of Sabata (1971)

The Ridiculous Six (2016)

#if u saw this ask when i posted it prematurely.... no u didnt #lots of westerns are terrible but these are the extraordinary stinkers #some of them are bad in a fun way tho #bronco billy and return of sabata are both DEEPLY entertaining. i would gladly watch them a billion times #BECAUSE they are bad #but then theres fucking heavens gate #a film that fills me with unholy rage #for being so deeply unwatchable and miserable to sit through #trin im still debating how many of these i can show you in good conscience. is it humane ? #in the case of heavens gate it was not. #heaven's gate (1980) #bronco billy (1980) #paint your wagon (1969) #the return of sabata (1971) #the ridiculous six (2016) #westerns #🤠 #🍝 #asks #murderr

[adhd-merlin]

I don't wanna open a can of worms here but I miss colin's OG ears a bit

#this was apparently a matter of great debate around 2016 #with two opposing factions #bodily autonomy vs toxic beauty standards #or something #love stumbling upon old fandom lore #anyway! of course he should do as he likes. more power to him #but I liked them #colin morgan

[age-of-moonknight]

“Death and Birth: Part 2 of 5,” Moon Knight (Vol. 8/2016), #11.

Writer: Jeff Lemire; Penciler and Inker: Greg Smallwood; Colorist: Jordie Bellaire; Letterer: Cory Petit

#Marvel #Marvel comics #Marvel 616 #Moon Knight vol. 8 #Moon Knight 2016 #Moon Knight comics #Moon Knight #Marc Spector #Elias Spector #Jake Lockley #and Marc’s still unnamed mother… #I debated whether or not to include the first page but I just love the art so much #the use of light/shadow as well as the particular sense of isolation it invokes #with Marc framed at the very center of these wide panels #and then of course there’s the content #this is a marked departure from established canon (where Marc and Elias had a falling out due to Marc’s rebellious/violent tendencies #that were not quite related to mental health and Elias didn’t die until after Marc was Moon Knight) #but this issue is so good I never really cared #the heart of the conflict is still there where Marc worries he never lived up to his father’s standards #and of course Jake fronting as a means to protect against emotional distress is *chef’s kiss* so good #plus I’m pretty sure they name-drop “Putnam” in the Disney+ show which is a detail I always appreciated

[timewontwait]

honestly at this rate, i’m considering going back to fic writing/drawing fan works full swing

#🌀 — later guys! i’m outta here. ❪ ooc. ❫ #vent // #don't get me wrong i still love rping. i'm still gonna do it #it still makes me super happy whenever i see new interactions pop up in my inboxes - even if i never end up getting to them #but hoogh.. i'll be honest besties - this past year has been challenging #idk how to describe it really without sounding like a loser dkasdafjdl but the tldr is mental illness and #writing in a space where feedback isn't always guaranteed doesn't mix well for me #which is why i'm kinda debating fanfic again because i STILL get comments and kudos from a fic i worked on back in 2016 #even though its full of flaws and cringe moments i still am so touched that there are ppl out there that still enjoy it in its full #teenaged toby angst glory kgjsdkj #what does that mean for my blogs and activity if i do wind up getting back into that kinda thing? dunno yet. #but i'll still BE here #and i will still probably respond to stuff (just slowly.. i am not fast like sonic T hedgehog) #jussst yeah. thinking it'll be good for me to pursue other hobbies and passions too #oh yeah i feel like i need to clarify - this has nothing to do with anything recent #it's been a gradual feeling

[ansburg]

people be like "damn it's fucked up that milk and eggs are 700% of normal price. anyway prepare to vote for biden"

#like. you do understand there's a whole ass year of campaigning debates and policy discussion to be had before that right. right #yes the democratic establishment will push biden as the incumbent if not kamala but you SHOULD be hoping that progressives #such as marianne williamson do get traction (and btw she is polling at 10% now which is huge #bc not even bernie had those numbers at this point in the game when he ran in 2016) #bc progressives on the stage - even if they don't WIN - push the needle left #bc they are running on popular movements which would otherwise get shafted as impossible #like the $15 minimum wage. college debt forgiveness. literally anything that has had populist support LMAO #like i swear to god. get your heads out of the sand and start dreaming bigger than the hellhole you think we're stuck with #politics cw

[nodynasty4us]

From the June 7, 2023 review:

If Christie wanted to be president, he missed his chance by not running in 2012. “Now is not my time,” he said at a press conference announcing his decision on Oct. 4, 2011. Except, in retrospect, it was the best chance he was going to get. In September 2011, he was riding high: ... A national poll from YouGov/The Economist showed him tied with former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney for first place in the Republican presidential primary. ... The national polling leader, Romney, sat at only 22 percent in the RealClearPolitics average at the time...

After he won reelection in a landslide in 2013, news broke that Christie aides had closed traffic lanes on the George Washington Bridge in order to create traffic problems in Fort Lee, New Jersey, to retaliate politically against the city’s mayor, who hadn’t endorsed Christie for reelection. The scandal permanently torpedoed Christie’s approval ratings in New Jersey...

Christie could impact the race simply by making the case against Trump; even if he doesn’t personally benefit from it, a slew of aggressive attacks on the front-runner could take the wind out of Trump’s sails and shift support toward, say, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis. As a template, look no further than what Christie did to Sen. Marco Rubio in 2016. In a debate just days before the New Hampshire primary, Christie lit into Rubio for his inexperience and canned talking points. After Rubio finished fifth in New Hampshire, a narrative emerged that Christie had mortally wounded his campaign.

...

Probably no one will be shocked to learn that Christie has a vanishingly small chance of becoming the Republican nominee for president. Though he once had that potential, his window of opportunity closed long ago. Instead, his best shot at making a difference in this race is as an attack dog. But it’s fair to wonder whether he is now too irrelevant to be effective even at that.

#chris christie #2012 #2016 #2024 #debates #polls

[pikkish]

So I know that 2022 isn't actually canonically when classic Doom takes place, it was printed in one of the port manuals without ever being confirmed by any of the original team, but I think it is infinitely funnier if that is when it takes place, because that would mean Hayden was alive through the events of classic Doom, and he still decided to everything he did. My man you saw the consequences and you still made the decisions you did. This is very much your own fault.

#doom #pikspeak #bc 2016 takes place in 2149 iirc and one of the codexes says sam is 'over 130 years old' #so at the very youngest he couldve been 3 in 2022 #but the codex says *over* 130 so he couldve been even older #of course i suppose it depends on your headcanon of when/how samur became samuel #was hayden a person before samur came along? did samur become an infant human child and grow up? #did he just craft a fake identity when he needed it and go 'yeah ok 2019 or earlier as a birth date sounds about right' #one of the codexes in 2016 establishes that he definitely has a history #born to a rich family; graduated from oxford; started a 'philanthropic orginization'.... #all things that can be verified. #so fully adult human samuel hayden didnt just pop into existence one day #there definitely *was* a hayden but where samur's influence comes in is up for debate #regardless i think its hilarious that hayden couldve been alive for classic doom #and he still went 'hmm yes i will open more portals to hell. this is a fantastic idea. nothing will go wrong. i am very smart. :)' #sam u idiot i want to punt you into the sun #unrelated sidenote anyone know why you cant italicise single words in textposts on moble #if u try it just italicises the entire post. dangit tumblr let me put emphasis on words.

[hawkzeyes]

The way I absolutely misread tones has me wanting to bang my head cause I thought I was having a casual cool debate about Hawkeye and Green Arrow and it turns out I was making this person uncomfortable with the amount I had to say on the topic 😭

#this is why I simply do not participate in debate convos #I miss tones entirely too much #and now I feel uncomfy in the group 😭 #but ultimately I was right because the guy said Oliver got Barry with an arrow in green arrow 2016 and he absolutely did not #green arrow #hawkeye #clint barton #oliver queen #hawkzeyes

[possibleplatypus]

Oh nos the Tony stans found my post 🤣 *block block block*

#if you're a tony stan WHY are you in the steve rogers stucky tag #commenting on a post that has nothing to do with tony #and his only contribution to that movie #was to help shieldra make their helicarriers #lmaoooo #sorry i have no patience to argue about something that's already been debated about ad nauseum since 2016 #anti tony stark #i'm sure they're nice people but i cannot #my energy is better used for reading stucky fic and sleeping lmao