#like.. didn't that show queerbait for over a decade

[microsuedemouse]

Steve and Danny's readiness to say they love each other is both really refreshing for TV in general (it is SO rare to see this much openly-expressed love between two men, esp in any show/genre as testosterone-driven as H50 is), and part of what makes their relationship so great to watch. "See, this is why I love you, buddy." - Danny to Steve, without hesitation, when Steve offers again to drop everything and head down to Colombia guns blazing to rescue Danny's dumbass fugitive brother from the shady real estate mogul who's holding him hostage. And yeah, Danny goes on to joke something about Steve always being so ready to risk both of their lives... but he meant the 'love you' part. He really did, and he doesn't try to walk it back.

There's so, so much love between the two of them. To the point that it's often hard to be bitter about their relationship not being explicitly and canonically romantic, the way that you can about so many popular queer ships in television. Their chemistry is written and performed with SO much love and care that you're often left feeling like it is a real and genuine on-screen queer romance, even if they never get to share a kiss or settle down together.

#I feel insane. I don't think that I have ever been Affected by a ship quite the same way that I am Affected by McDanno. #I have obsessed over many ships in my nearly three decades on this earth but idk what compares to this. #to the specific way this relationship exists in its canon. #you know how you can watch one thing and be like 'ah. queerbait' #and then you can watch something else and be like 'oh this is Queer. this was made queer On Purpose. For Us. With Love.' #'they didn't get to say it out loud but the love is There and it's there Deliberately and it's there in every thread.' #H50 is the second one. #I don't know shit about the writers on this show but if nothing else Alex and Scott were giving us this romance in every way they could. #H50 tag #for context I am just finishing 5x04

[feathered-serpents]

God queerbaiting really fucked us didn't it?

Not only do I still have a lingering disbelief over the fact that the Kiss really happened in season 2, when I saw the EVERY spoiler, I gaslit myself into believing it was fake. Aziraphale and Crowley were always a queer couple, but I never thought it would be that in your face, I never let myself hope.

And even now, AFTER the kiss, I get people telling me they don't think it's gonna end with them involved romantically. They don't see them having a happy ending. It doesn't matter what Neil says, it doesn't matter what the themes of the story are, people refuse to have hope because we've been conditioned not to. That's what decades of queerbaiting have done to us, just made so many of us refuse to have hope because why would we?

Obviously, season 3 is going to end with the South Down's Cottage, and it breaks my heart to see people so USED to disappointment brought on by queerbaiting that they refuse to look forward to that. That they just go "No. There's no way. This doesn't happen" it's just. Sad

Obviously, I don't know the ending of the entire show, but I would shocked if it didn't have a happy ending. That's just not the story Good Omens is, that's not what it feels like we've been promised. But we're so used to stories burning us in the last second I can't blame people for their doubt

I dunno, I don't really have a point to this rant other than being like "Damn... they really fucked us over so many times we've started to expect disappointment. That's pretty fucked up actually"

#good omens #ineffable husbands #crowley x aziraphale #aziracrow #good omens 2 #i'm tagging this like a tiktok why's that upsetting me

[olderthannetfic]

So, a creator for a canon whose fandom I am begrudgingly in - I stick to fic and avoid people-intense places due to some toxicity issues - recently clarified that as he modeled a character's behaviors on an aroace, not-interested-in-sex friend of his, he views them as aroace (with the same non-interest in sex).

Fandom is unable to be normal about queer rep. You can guess what followed: accusations of queerbaiting. This drives me nuts for a number of reasons. One, the show is done and was done over a decade ago. It's not baiting anyone to tune in. It's over. Two, this was not said to boost merch or get cred with the fandom or something. Someone asked why the character never got a love interest or references to past romances. The creator answered. And three, perhaps most importantly, queerbaiting is when the queerness is not canonical. You can absolutely see the queerness in the character and how they're written, to the point where even conservative dickweeds in the fandom can't find anything that contradicts the character being aroace.

Hence my ultimate question here, which is why are people mad at this? I'm aroace and I'm thrilled. This character has a whole happy, contented life where no one treats him like a freak or like he needs sex and romance to be happy. He's got character development, he's got an arc, he has best friends - the writers didn't treat him differently than any other character. To me that seems ideal. He was written as well as everyone else. He has as much of a rich interior life as everyone else. And we didn't have to see any jackassery from other people pushing him to be "normal".

I know fandom getting mad at queer rep has always been a thing but I don't get it. But since you're very well-versed in fandom's behaviors and I'm not, maybe you can shed some light on this? I see some people going "but this isn't every ace's lived experience!", which is true, it's just... he never said it was? He just showed a single character's lived experience, no one ever said, "this is the epitome of what it is to be aroace!"

I don't know when this idea sprung up that rep that doesn't show all possible ways a person can be a queer identity is bad but I don't think it's productive. Instead of being happy for what we have fandom just gets angry. What's the point of it all?

--

Oh, come now: I think you know what most of the objections are really about if you think about it:

And, in general, the less minority rep there is for a given minority, the more people nitpick what does exist to death.

[buckybarnesss]

As a Teen Wolf Scholar, can you provide context as to why that Tyler Posey "bizarre and twisted" quote keeps getting pulled out almost a decade later as a reason to hate on him? Was it the first time someone involved with the show didn't continue to string along the Sterek fandom about it one day becoming canon? Did people take it very personally that he said we were watching the show for the wrong reasons? Or did people actually misinterpret it as him commenting on the idea of the relationship being twisted and not on the weird fact that the Sterek online fandom was overwhelmingly more vocal and visible than the general Teen Wolf fandom?

Every time I go back and watch that youtube interview, I can't read it as anything other than a slightly dumb but valid commentary on the fandom phenomenon but that's never the context people seem to refer back to it with.

so i've been sitting on this ask for a while and as with many things with teen wolf it's complicated and i'm probably way more diplomatic about it than others in fandom.

i just discovered there is a fanlore page about this called poseygate.

i don't particularly like to rehash this kind of fandom history. i am a firm believer in the fourth wall and that there should be boundaries between creator and fandom. teen wolf was popular around the time that began to erode due to the rise of social media.

it can be fun when an actor or creator engages their fandom and supports someone's ship but not every actor is misha collins. he is an outlier and even he fucks up.

dylan o'brien and hoechlin have always been rather diplomatic and positive in their responses to sterek as far as i know. hoechlin in particular adores stiles, derek's relationship with him and continues to radiate heart eyes when speaking about dylan.

i bear no ill will towards posey and i think he has a very complicated relationship with not just fandom but the show itself but i am not here to armchair psychoanalyze a person i've never met.

i can understand posey feeling a particular kind of way of being the lead on a show where fandom constantly pushes you out in favor of two white men they wanna see fuck. i can understand him being kind of weirded out by the age gap too. i am perfectly fine if people don't like sterek because of it but i don't like when people project that on others.

we have to remember dylan and hoechlin are his friends. they are real people with their own lives so it has to be weird as fuck to be constantly asked about the shipping of their characters.

that said was it a nice or respectful thing to say? no it wasn't. did he ever really apologize for it? also no. was it taken personally by people in fandom? yes. how could it not be? it's a thoughtlessly hurtful thing to say over something as inconsequential as shipping.

sterek once it became popular and dominated fandom received it's fair share of hate and derision. fandom is not known for it's chill, you know. people have said some really nasty things about posey and scott over the years.

the antis like to use it as a gotcha though to sterek shippers which is dumb. tyler posey finding sterek weird doesn't stop me from shipping it. like i don't care. it's nice when we do get validation and engagement from an actor or whatever but it's not needed.

besides in relation to teen wolf i'm way more interested in taking teen wolf creator, executive producer and man who doesn't know how time works jeff davis to task along side mtv for their queerbaiting and racism.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

#my blog #thoughts on teen wolf #sterek

[thestrangestthlng]

Bi Buck and the internet interneting

I'm absolutely fucking living for the positive male bisexual representation we've been getting in media. Three masc male bis in the past year (and some change) is fucking amazing. Not only are they coming into their sexualities, their growth and development is detailed and explicit.

Furthermore, we have them having their sexual awakenings at different phases in their lives. There's no timetable on figuring out your sexuality. Personally, I as already in my late-20s/early thirties when I realized that yes my aesthetic appreciation for women was more than just aesthetic appreciation. We have Nick Nelson falling in love with his friend in high school, Alex Claremont-Diaz falling in love and having his awakening in his early-mid twenties, and now Buck realizing that his jealousy and feelings are more than just wanting to be friends in his early thirties.

Of course, the internet loses its collective minds--mostly for good, but you know the internet is always going to the internet.

There were a bunch of comments about how the show was "ruined" and asking why everything has to be gay. Here are some direct quotes.

"ABC just fucked up an amazing show and ruined my favorite character."

"Enough already. Why must it be in every freaking show on television? We'll see how the ratings go."

"Not Buck😢. ABC has just ruined 9-1-1."

"I'm done... tired of not being able to watch anything with the gay agenda having to be added."

"Ruined the show for me."

"WHY WOULD YOU RUIN BUCKS CHARACTER LIKE THIS. BYE"

"BRO WHY DID YOU MAKE BUCK GAY NO"

"Didn't and don't like where this Buck storyline is going.. smh"

Let's start breaking down this fucking foolery. First and foremost, 9-1-1 is a RYAN MURPHY show and the show has been queer af the whole fucking time. What we're not going to do is erase Hen like she hasn't been there the whole fucking time.

So, I personally this that people are mad about this development in his character because Buck is masc. Not only masc, but he's a firefighter, a manly man's job. Being a queer masc in that type of setting is threatening to some men's heteronormative opinion of what masculinity is. It makes them uncomfortable because he's not a stereotype. Buck's personality hasn't changed because he's started kissing boys. Hen is not an issue because Hen having a more traditionally masculine role as a lesbian is not "threatening" to their opinions of what masculinity is. Michael isn't an issue because he's not a main character, he's not in the 118.

But someone is like "not everything is homophobia" and went on to say about how sometimes people just don't like change and that if you got to know someone for six years as straight you won't like it if they were suddenly queer.

Holy microaggressive queerphobia Batman.

Buck hasn't changed more than his character growth and development over the years. Also, they've been shining a queer beacon over his head for years, which is why so many people were hesitant to get invested in the show thinking it was just going to be another queerbaiting situation.

As a bi myself, I am ecstatic to see more and more positive representation, but to sit here and say that his character is ruined or the show is ruined because he did what they've been hinting at for years, that's goofy.

Like, if queerness offends you so much, why are you watching it?

Moral of the story is that queer people come in all shapes, sizes, personalities, mannerisms, etc. The fact that media is including more masculine presenting queer men is amazing, because we've been force-fed stereotypes that are palatable for straight men for decades. It's supercalafragulisticexpialidous that we have bisexual male representation because that's new new. There's so much biphobia and bi-erasure it's so amazing to see it on the screen (and also not just being queerbaited for years.)

Hollywood: Keep it up.

And because I can: have some bi boy appreciation:

Just lusting; nothing to see here.

Honestly, though Taylor is so fucking pretty, he's literally punchable.

They're literally low key raising a family together, and ya'll are surprised. (Also, side note, I will die for Christopher.)

#9 1 1 #9 1 1 abc #9 1 1 buck #evan buckley #buck #bi buck #911 spoilers #911 abc #bisexuality #queer characters #gay firefighter show #queer media #queer identities #bisexual representation #nick nelson #alex claremont diaz #masc bisexual characters #rant

[ingravinoveritas]

Crowley and Aziraphale always came off as romantic to me; both in the book and in the show. They have so much more chemistry than anyone else. And I always second guess me reading their relationship as romantic when I see the general public's takes. So then I go back over like, okay, if this was a man and a woman, how would this read. They do couple things all the time. They use pet names. The show leans more into pining but in the book it feels like they're already married. Both the narrator and other characters refer to them as a couple and its never contradicted. Is that subtext or just plain text. I wouldn't call it queerbaiting, but queercoding or representation doesn't feel quite right either. Are we reading too much into it or is media literacy dead.

Hi there! Thank you for sharing these thoughts in response to my post from the other day. What you've mentioned here (how this would read if it was a man and a woman) is something I have thought about as well--both in terms of Aziraphale/Crowley and Michael/David, as I have shipped them outside of the show for some time now, and especially given the increasingly fuzzy line between them and the characters (which both Michael and David themselves have talked about in multiple interviews).

I think what we're seeing is neither queerbaiting nor queercoding/representation, but instead a sort of incongruity between what was put on the printed page when Good Omens was first published and what was brought to life on screen when it came to TV. What I mean by that is I often see a lot of people point to the line "gayer than a treeful of monkeys on nitrous oxide" as proof (almost typed "poof" there--hello, Freudian slip...) that Neil/Terry meant for the characters (specifically Aziraphale) to be gay. But from what Neil has said, the main intention here was for this to be a play on words--so, "gay" as in homosexual, but also "gay" as in happy, which was the original meaning of the term. I'm then led to think that in the minds of two cishet men in the late 1980s, "gayness" conjured a particular, unserious image, which they then brought into the writing.

Fast-forward to thirty years later, and you have Good Omens finally becoming a television show. Terry Pratchett (Gnu) had sadly left us, and so the task fell to Neil to write the screenplay and honor Terry's last wish by faithfully adapting the story. And while Neil wisely decided to cast Michael for his goodness and angelic-like nature, what I think he didn't count on was Michael's long-held beliefs and ideas about the character of Aziraphale and how he would portray him, or his profound penchant for playing numerous queer characters over the last several decades. The gayness of Aziraphale on the written page was something that Neil could control, but he couldn't control the gayness of Aziraphale as interpreted by Michael.

So that led to Neil having to address some things that I don't think he was quite prepared to address, both about the show and inside himself. Mainly, that if we are to extrapolate that what we see in season 1 is a reflection (to some degree, anyway) of Neil's views on relationships, a straight couple with little to no chemistry can jump into bed together without any hesitation, but a gay couple with tremendous chemistry and who share a deep and profound connection can't express that, either physically or by simply saying "I love you."

Much discussion has been made about how it's not necessary for someone to say "I love you" to convey such a sentiment. But what I've noticed missing from this discourse is the age/experience of anyone who has been in a relationship where that wasn't said (or conveyed) by one partner and how painful that was for the other partner. And as I mentioned in my other post, even once gay/queer people started to exist in media, they still weren't allowed to fall in love. (The phrase "the love that dare not speak its name" even came into being because of this taboo, for crying out loud.)

So when we then look at the countless tweets from Neil about how Good Omens is a love story while considering the vastly different ways in which that love is regarded when it's straight vs. when it's gay, his words start to ring somewhat hollow. And if he repeatedly has to emphasize that something is a love story, then maybe it isn't coming across as a love story in the way he thinks it is. Maybe Neil being more comfortable with casual, meaningless sex than a deep commitment speaks to a larger issue on his part. Or maybe Neil was fine with the abstract idea of a gay love story, but suddenly less comfortable with the concrete, three-dimensional reality of it.

If I had to use a word to describe it, then, from a media/cultural standpoint, I think I would call it "queerplaying," which I would define as roleplaying queerness on a surface level without actually delving into the complexity and messiness of what it actually means to be a queer/non-cishet human being. (To be clear, I am applying this to the writing/the original GO text, not to what Michael and David ultimately brought to the roles as actors.)

I hope this all makes sense. Again, the second season could come out tomorrow/Friday and prove me completely wrong about everything I've just said here, which would be wonderful. But I'm glad that other people have felt similarly about what we saw (or didn't see) in the first season, and the disconnect between the perceptions of fans/the perception of the public vs. Neil's authorial intent. Thanks for writing in! x

#pavoptes #reply post #good omens #good omens 2 #aziraphale #crowley #ineffable husbands #neil gaiman #creators are not perfect #i think neil may have some internalized homophobia he is still dealing with tbh #but i'm glad we've had Michael and David as Aziraphale and Crowley #not holding anything back #can't wait for the second season #discourse

[graphicabyss]

TIGER & BUNNY2 thoughts.

I love S2 but it left me with complicarted feelings.

The quality is great as expected. But the plots and developments left me unsatisfied in several ways. As with all superhero genre, there's a very repetitive pattern. Even when the stakes are high, you hardly expect the heroes can possibly lose. And all the tropes are very predictable. There are customary mid-season injuries. They defeat a boss, only to find there's a bigger boss behind them. And you know someone's gonna lose control of their body and fight their partner. The only good and sad twist was Lunatic.

There's also a certain frustration at the lack of progress on a personal level. Kotetsu and Barnaby start the season as very close and end it the same way basically. At the same time, it feels ridiculous how professional their relationship is. They are ready to die for each other but haven't gone out to dinner once? Come on. All those romantic getaways in the credits don't count apparently.

I feel like T&B should be an illustration under a wiki article on queerbaiting. The 'buddy ' system only adds to that. It's like a superhero band of Thebes. Except the show had to intention of letting us have it. And they gave us a queer character and a brief mention of a same-sex couple. But that gave me Marvel vibes - "we're cool with it, but not for main characters".

Other relationships don't develop that much either. The old "buddies" are already as close as it gets. The problems are all coming from the new characters. There's gonna be a hero who's cool on their own and doesn't trust others... only to learn the value of friendship in the end. Black and White are cute but not interesting enough to me. Other heroes too make progress but it's unexciting. At this point, I would take any kind of development. Ryan and Karina? Sure, why not? Can't at least someone be happy? Overall, I don't mind the new characters but they take away from the main cast and I would rather not have it.

The ending is pretty vague. The postcredit scene suggests it's over and done but most plot lines remain unresolved. The heroes don't even learn about Ouroboros involvement, let alone act upon it. I expected Kaede to leap into action but that didn't happen either. I really liked the mid-season ending, it was a good twist, but the season ending felt very uncertain.

Still, I would take S3 any day. There's still a lot of potential for it. I don't even mind Kotetsu being a stay at home husband. But with S2 taking a decade to be made and the fanbase dwindling, I have a feeling we're not gonna see it.

#TIGER&BUNNY #tiger & bunny #tiger and bunny

[like-sands-of-time]

Ok but the reason shows or movies like the facts of life, boy meets world, dead poets society, etc. All resonated with tweens so much is because they talked about real, serious issues, and didn't talk down to us, the audience, the kids.

Likewise, the reason shows "aren't the same these days" and feel.. empty or without the same cultural impact, is because they aren't actually addressing the same problem kids face no matter what decade we're in. They think all kids have a closet packed with brand clothing, shiny toys and completely personalized rooms with three different wall paints and stairs in their room. They think a lower class kid still has the latest phone and trendy clothes, but just has a single mom who works. Kids complain which they always do, but they are told their complaints are valid instead of proving to them how they're wrong. They've lost touch.

I can't express enough how much the children of today and tomorrow need a show that is modern and inclusive, tween and teen friendly, and serious. A sit com should be serious issues with humor to fall back on. Not empty jokes with five minutes of a "lesson" to be learned. Give the characters happy endings, fine, but show them real repercussions for their actions. Telling ten years olds they can behave like spoiled kids and be validated by their parents is only causing ten year old kids to feel they can behave that way. Hmmm I wonder what the connection could be

We need a show(s) with kids growing up and figuring themselves out in the modern age, but realistically I beg of you. Disney shows are doing nobody any favors. Show kids of darker skin tones as important characters, not just stereotypes. Show kids exploring romantic identities in more than the traditional way and make !! It !! Clear !!! No more subtext. If you can't say that a boy is blushing over going on a date to the mall with another boy then don't fucking bother. "Queerbaiting" is out. Queerness being a NORMAL thing in tv, nobody making it a big deal, is the only way it will become a normal thing in our own society. So that girl likes girls. Is she a decent person? What's her character like? Etc.

Show real issues. Show the kids working through them and understanding them, even applying them to conveniently related situations. Show them getting into trouble and having adults they can rely on to be serious and loving, not indulgent and borderline negligent.

If there must be relationships, listen to the audience! Chandler and Monica worked for a reason. But also, sometimes the Cory and Topanga, Ross and Rachel, storyline isn't the most important. Yes they're the main characters in their story, but in a show about a group, they're only two people. The Shawn and Angela, Chandler and Monica stories worked even though the writers didn't care as much about them, cough shangela cough. And sometimes you don't need a comic relief character you dump scene fillers on. A character everyone just bullies or calls/thinks them dumb. It's not necessary. They can have meaningful plots too if you actually put in the work and keep all your charts organized

The point of all of this is, if it ever reaches someone who writes for tv, those shows impacted us so much as 10, 11, 12 year olds and we didn't even realize. There's an opening for meaningful, daring, unique and "ahead of it's time" tv. because that's what it'll be the whole time. People will drag their feet and maybe the ratings or social media reviews will be on both ends of the spectrum but it's worth it when we think about how much the characters affect us and our own dreams for the future. I don't need high school or middle school stories anymore, but that doesn't mean kids don't.

#tv series #writing #tv writing #characters #queer characters #poc characters #people of all shapes and sizes who are real people too.. not just what disney thinks we all are #awkward self conscious nervous kind sarcastic humourous mischievous shy #tv relationships #boy meets world #the facts of life #diff'rent strokes

[golbrocklovely]

i'm gonna rant about this for two seconds just bc i saw a lot of stuff about it on twitter and don't really feel like bitching about it there lol

so the teen wolf movie… i knew from the get go this was gonna end up being shit the moment dylan wasn't gonna be in it sksks

but what i've heard about this movie (bc highkey i ain't gonna watch it sorry), it somehow is worse than imagined.

i used to love teen wolf. literally watched it as it was airing. used to have a blog dedicated to it, used to do live recaps on my personal tumblr. i loved that show. but i started to not care about it around season 4/5ish. basically, they introduced too many characters and i just didn't care about a single one of them. hilariously one of the characters i despise is now loved deeply (theo) so… go figure.

but what i don't understand is… why are any of you surprised that jeff davis did what jeff davis does best and fucked up teen wolf?

like this man was notoriously hated for years in the fandom after season 3 bc everything he did to the characters sucked ass. and then topping all of that off, the queerbaiting. that man originated it (not really, but you get my point) so why are you guys surprised that he basically did all of this again just a decade or more later??

of course this movie was a cash grab and not really meant to bring back the love or respect the fans' love for this story. it was just to make money and keep the property rights going.

personally, if i was going to make a teen wolf movie, this is what i would have done:

the overall theme of the movie - letting go of the past.

assuming you could get most of the cast to come back, this is how the movie would have went: after everyone graduated high school (at least the main cast like scott, lydia, stiles, malia, that group), they all immediately left BH. maybe even make it seem like it was a supernatural reason or something, like something pushed them away from BH but they didn't know it at the time. years later, scott is starting to see visions of allison again, like how this movie alluded to it in the trailers. have the others start to see it too. maybe they even see past monsters coming back and haunting them, which makes them all go back to BH. imagine it kinda like in "it" where all the adult versions of the kids didn't remember their old home town, but once they are told about it, they are drawn back. kinda sorta like that.

they get to BH and everything seems okay-ish. hell, maybe you can even make it where it's their 10 year hs anniversary or something just so you get to see all the familiar faces. all of sudden, old monsters that they have fought and killed before come back. bring out all the old hits, maybe some new ones - idk. then, have allison appear. but she's not how she used to be.

she's now void!allison.

each of the main characters has to go on their own journey and fight their own battles - past monsters they once faced they now have to deal with again. there is a bigger monster controlling all of the older monsters (maybe it's void!allison or maybe it's someone pretending that it's her) and if these monsters aren't defeated by the red moon (or some other bs werewolf lore shit that can be made up idk) these monsters will ACTUALLY come back and start killing all the citizens of BH bc in the current period they are only half as strong as they could be. and make it bc, as deaton had mentioned oh so many years ago, BH is a beacon for the supernatural. and something buried deep in BH is drawing this Main Monster to create and resurrect all of these old monsters.

and the whole point of the movie is showing that even tho they moved away from BH and continued living, none of them ever really moved on from what happened to them. you can have malia have to face off against her mother again. lydia maybe is back in eichen house or something. as for derek and scott, they are facing bigger issues.

scott - he has to get over losing his first love, allison. especially since in this state, she is trying to constantly kill him and his pack. he never truly got over her death, and so in the end… he has to kill her. bc realistically allison wouldn't want to be fighting him or trying to kill him or any of her friends. and more she is "alive" the less like her she is being. she is becoming more and more a monster, and scott knows that that isn't something she would want. maybe even have it where the Big Monster offers him the chance to have her be actually resurrected and not just used as a puppet if he relinquishes his powers to the Big Monster.

derek - he has to face his fears and forgive himself of his family's death (along with his first love's death as well). just a lot of forgiveness on his part, especially since now he has a kid. his kid shouldn't inherent the trauma that derek has had just bc he never truly got over it. have derek face off not only against past monsters, but maybe against himself. the Big Monster might try to persuade him to die and give up his powers bc he'll at least be with his family again. maybe derek finally realizes that he isn't alone in this world bc he has family living rn. and this makes him want to keep fighting.

and this would be a great time to note that if dylan didn't want to come back like he did irl, you can blame it on him being a human and not a supernatural being. or idk, come up with a bs reason like he's overseas taking care of the kids that he and lydia clearly and definitely had bc they are meant to be together.

they are just able to defeat their past demons, and they all band together and defeat the Big Monster in some way or another. all the other side characters that have existed can be included in each of the main casts' stories in one way or another. maybe have them be each other's tether or whatever. idk, i'm not working out all the kinks bc i ain't writing this.

in the end, they all live, maybe one of them can have a moment of almost dying - but they all make it out in the end. allison is still dead tho, bc she is meant to be dead. even tho it's heartbreaking, it's a part of life that scott can now finally accept and move on from. much like the rest of the characters and their past. they are finally healed.

see… wouldn't that have been better than whatever the fuck happened in the movie lol

#part of me wants to write this but like... it ain't gonna happen lol #i don't know all the lore of teen wolf anymore and i'm not about to relearn all of it #highkey everything after void!stiles was shit let's be honest #personal #text #do i tag this as teen wolf? idk #the fanbase on here is a bit... intense lol

[obsessivelollipoplalala]

I remember fics booming during long Sherlock hiatuses back in the day.

True, but tumblr was still extremely popular at this point. Not saying it's dead now, but the porn ban definitely had an impact. I also think the outrage at the writers (insane and idiotic as it was) kept it in the mainstream. Back in the 2010s my mom knew about the drama surrounding Moffatt/Gatiss and the queerbaiting allegations. She didn't even watch the show, she heard about it on Pinterest of all things. Hell, the only reason I watched the show was bc I saw a thread here in like 2013.

We have a few people who are mad at the ending of go2, but it's nothing compared to the hubbub around things like Sherlock or SPN. The internet thrives on discourse, so it's not as interesting to others outside the fandom.

There's also the matter of internet etiquette and how, over the years, fans have come to expect consistent content and pay authors little to no mind. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms. I expect the go2 fics will become more popular over time, and I hope the lack of engagement isn't too discouraging bc I do really enjoy what I've read so far.

Hmmm. Yeah, this reminds me of what I talked about like last week or so with all of the tumblr polls I've seen asking how long people have been on here saying that the vast majority of users have been here for at least a decade. Sherlock's prime definitely lined up with tumblr's prime (I only watched it because an irl friend was blogging about it on here lol). I didn't come here until 2013 and was pretty blissfully unaware of the discourse for about a year, but I have heard from other fans that the online fan situation around that show started to get nuts right after s2 in 2012. Outrage does drive engagement, whatever that may look like. I think the ending of Sherlock s2 was perfect material for fanfiction with everyone wanting to know how Sherlock survived the Fall and how John would react upon his return, too. There were soooo many Post-Reichenbach fics, it was an entire genre. And then with s3, there was a flood of fix-it fics with people's anger over Mary, and exploration of her villainy.

You're right, gomens s2 doesn't have that same effect because it's pretty obvious that this is being written like a classic love story and everything is going to be resolved in the third act. There's no mainstream backlash. The only people who are angry about it, from what I've seen, are people who apparently don't know how basic storytelling works and are really pissed at Aziraphale (that's another reason why people might not be reading fics tbh), and those big mad over the kiss because, "it's ruins ace rep" and blah blah blah. But those people are in the clear minority. Some people may not feel the need to read fic because they trust all will be well in the next season and they just have to wait. Basically, the source material satisfies them enough that they're not seeking out fic in the same way they were after s1's homoerotic ambiguity.

You're totally right that fans have gotten worse to content creators in recent years. They want a constant stream of free fic and art without having to, god forbid, hit a heart button or kudos button. I've been in fandom spaces for a long time and that's definitely worsened over time, although I'm lucky that some fans have been nice enough about my gomens fics to make art/translations/etc. But that's for my s1 stuff and I know that's certainly not the case for everyone's fics. I hope the lack of engagement isn't too discouraging, too, but I completely understand if it is for some people.

#I do think your mom is pretty exceptional #for hearing about the Sherlock backlash a decade ago on pinterest lmao #exceptional for older adults not on tumblr I mean #my mom is oblivious to all things fandom unless I tell her #replies

[ineffably-human]

here's the thing about 'queerbaiting', something I still think doesn't exist:

there are queer couples all over the place in media these days. most of them are traditionally sexy young adults, because most romance writing is about traditionally sexy young adults. but you tend to know what you're getting within a season or two. there's a distinct lack of queer slow burns in the traditional rom-com sense where you don't immediately know where it's going. if you've got a queer romance, then you've got a queer romance. most of the fanfare I see when something long-term goes canon is from 'animation lesbians': Catradora, Bubbleline, Korrasami, because the idea that animation is for kids (and Catradora's whole...deal) put their endgame in question.

but please consider: part of that is because in a M/F rom-com you know if they're devoting a lot of screen time to these two people interacting, that's your couple, and there's no doubt. the slow burn is HOW it's gonna happen, unless the show truly changes its direction halfway through, which is rare.

in a potential queer romance that doesn't immediately pay off, half the intrigue is sitting and wondering: if the writers realize what they're doing, if they're doing it on purpose, if this or that thing is symbolic or a hidden message, if that thing they said out loud is a joke or taking the possibility seriously. it's the ultimate parasocial 'does he like me or LIKE like me?' because it's baked into the experience itself that a little part of you believes it might not happen. I guarantee that there was never something with Jim and Pam or Jake and Amy where the actors/writers said something romantic about them in an interview and everyone went 'omg!! they were insane for this!!!' because there's nothing 'insane' about it, and there's nothing 'insane' about doing it for a queer couple either. we just don't EXPECT it yet.

the thing that makes a queer will-they-won't-they exciting for you is the exact thing that makes a queer will-they-won't-they potentially heartbreaking. I'm not saying it's bad to want it, just - understand that the reason you're reacting to That Very Intense Friendship and not the larger and larger offering of unambiguously canon queer media is because the potential 'taboo' of a queer pairing is like a mobius strip.

and half the time we're retrofitting a pairing. we want to ship, we find something shippable, we hunt for potential hints and dynamics accordingly. we are literally working in a different language than a lot of straight writers, and off a different set of endorphin rushes and emotional payoffs than a lot of straight viewers.

I can name maybe four shows that actually understood they had a queer fanbase and leaned into that fanbase while having no intention of paying it off. and almost all of those shows are like a decade old or at least started that long ago. some of them even clearly, vocally said they weren't writing a romance, people just didn't believe them or hoped they'd changed their minds. please name what you consider a clear example of queerbaiting that isn't Sherlock, Supernatural, Teen Wolf, idk maybe Gotham? (except does that even count if one of the pair is canon queer and the problem is they weren't taken seriously? I did not watch or Tumblr-osmose as much about Gotham.) and for whatever show you're naming, did they ever actually promise or even hint at queerness to begin with?

(I have remembered Loki after already posting this but I am like...torn on Loki. they said Loki would be bi and he is bi. him not getting with a man after being bi is not queerbaiting. it's a person being bisexual. and Disney being boring.)

I promise: OFMD didn't invent gay people, and there are shows on this earth that aren't Supernatural. I love hunting for whether they're 'actually gonna do it' as much as the next person, but understand why that hits a sweet spot that immediately canon queer relationships don't.

#unpopular opinions #queerbaiting #long post #i marinate over this idea every few months and have probably already ranted about it lol #i am a meta gremlin

[askullandbones]

Just finished Stranger Things season 4.

Everyone saying it was queerbait has... no idea what it was like being gay in the 80's. You did not come out to people unless you knew it was 1000% safe to do so or you would be thrown to the wolves. The fact that they even had it be obvious and have someone know and actually care about the gay person in question is honestly a lot more than we would usually get. When Jon told Will he loved him regardless I started sobbing, because that was something you didn't get back then.

"But it's fantasy--" yeah, you're right, but it's also sticking very close to its 80's timeline tied directly to what it was like in 80's America. That's what it was like for gay people. Honestly it was worse, because most of the time you couldn't confess to friends or family and have them still love you.

You're not going to get 2022 gay rep in a show that takes place in the 80's. It would be a slap in the face if we did, because that's like pretending all we've been through over the last few decades didn't happen at all.

#skull rants #stranger things #stranger things season 4 #stranger things spoilers

[seokzine]

it's a shame that what i believe to be the most convincing narrative supernatural queerbait moment also makes me sound insane every time i try to explain it. it's really not very complicated yet i still get the intense desire to pull out a whiteboard and go nuts. i am that one picture of charlie its always sunny. the only other alternative is to point out vibes but truly not everyone is receptive to the vibe (aha) and it's almost nearly impossible to distinguish between what is real and what I have trained myself into believing over the course of like, nearly a decade. i would say the exception to this is the free to be you and me bathroom eye contact because it's so absurd but also. but also. it's really not. clearly not everyone picked up on that moment (united states military, a surprising majority of r/supernatural) DESPITE the fact that misha collins and jensen ackles were probably about one shared joint away from jumping each other's bones (and by misha and jensen i mean just jensen i think misha was probably ready the whole time. jensen is suppressed and probably needs the cerebral high (sativa?) to get past the whole male cheerleader that won't drink out of straws thing). I used to show my mom that scene and go LOOK?!?!? LOOK!!!! and it's impossible to know what she thought at the time but it was probably something along the lines of "i will probably not be putting any money towards this child's wedding anytime soon" or "it's a shame she's too shy to do theater. she'd probably have a good time with some of those male leads" or "i have seen your internet history. i have seen your internet history" (on account of she had, in fact, seen my internet history)

someone tweeted something about how jensen ackles carried supernatural and all the replies were upset. they were saying "uhhhh aren't you forgetting about jared." JARED?!?! HA! jared?!?!? you've gotta be fucking kidding me. you're yanking my fucking chain. put some respect on misha collin's name NOW. he endured. he endured. he endured jared padalecki, specifically. anyone who replied to that tweet talking about jared should be clockwork oranged into watching walker texas ranger and then banned from twitter. what a terrible site. i wish that the tumblr type supernatural posters used a more organized, forum-like site. I would post on r/supernatural all the time if it didn't suck fucking ass. I would post more on here if there were any possibility of any of my posts being seen without going through the humiliating process of tagging posts for exposure. god. how embarrassing. ugh

#seokzine

[sasssydaddy123]

So the supernatural guy said he was bi and then backtracked later saying he's absolutely heterosexual? That sounds about right

#like.. didn't that show queerbait for over a decade #for it all to come together in 1 ep in November 2020 that nearly broke Tumblr #so what can we learn from this? #dont trust str8 men who make flippant jokes about their sexuality #smh this is both funny and frustrating to watch unfold #but im having a good laugh #ramblings

[diamondcitydarlin]

but yeah I guess one of the great things about OFMD and more specifically the Stedward relationship is that it DOES follow all of the beats of romantic slowburn, yes, but also (interestingly) it follows the beats of all the queerbait-y pairings we've watched intently over the years, except it actually delivers on what it's been building up to, and in doing so confirms to anyone that has ever seen these tropes/story beats with a pairing they were told were "NEVER GAY" were actually on to something in what they were seeing. It doesn't just give us representation of queer romance, it gives us a romance that seems carefully written to validate our prior interpretations of other things over the decades, as if to say 'all of these pairings were absolutely on a track to fall in love and the only reason they didn't, openly, is bc the people making it didn't want them to and that's it'

Because that's the other part of the trauma that we've been talking about, isn't it? It's not just a matter of shipping things that never went canon, it's about people in positions of power that we looked up to (often at very vulnerable stages in our lives, like when we were KIDS trying to figure ourselves out) telling us that even our interpretations are fundamentally wrong simply because making the characters queer was never an option in their minds ("like it's fine if people want to write that in fanfic but I, a cishet wasp man, would NEVER imply ANYTHING gay between two men so that was NEVER there OKAY"). And it gets worst past the point when someone figured out fandoms are lucrative and planting beats/tension that could be read differently by enthusiastic fans is beneficial to profit. At that point we're getting intentional suggestion of queerness, often encouraged and egged on during the run of a show via vague comments from creators/writers/actors, and then thusly waved away as something that never existed after the show concludes (or sooner, sometimes). At best, I mean often they just jump straight to ridiculing and sometimes harassing queer fans and anyone who liked that interpretation.

So like okay blah blah "it's just a tv show it ain't that deep" or whatever- or we could follow OFMD's example and stop ignoring the ways capitalism uses the queer identity for profit while exploiting but not in any prioritizing queer fans or their experiences or desires. It really doesn't take a lot of analysis to see how this pattern of behavior in mainstream media towards queer fans, over decades and decades, could be extremely harmful and communicate an attitude of 'nothing about your identity or wishes is important to us in any way, nor is it valid, in fact we find it funny and will make fun of all of you in multiple interviews and tweets :)'. Like, just that. Over and over and over and over again.

So anyway I think it's important that OFMD doesn't just subvert expectations here, but it seems to very intently use those tropes we've lived off of for years and INTENTIONALLY brings them to the conclusion we knew always knew they were reaching (ed and stede falling in love and kissing on screen) as if to say yeah yall were always on to something, you were never wrong or invalid, this is a thing that can happen and should happen and I just think that's neat.

#ofmd #trying SO HARD not to mention specific titles or pairings here lol #bc idk what people like and i dont want a mob after me eeeee

[brucespringsteendotcom]

I realize we've said this over and over but bear with me I'm still processing it. It's not just that they made it look like they were, after more than a decade, going to earnestly commit to the gay shit; it's that a show with a long history of devastating religious allegory wrote "this gay love is the only thing a malicious god cannot touch" and then just. Didn't see a need to comment on that at all. Supernatural has always been on another level of queerbait but they really pulled out all the stops on that one. This is not your average "you should have expected them to do this" queerbait situation it's just NOT

#hello to all my followers who dont watch Supernatural. this is what we're so upset about