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end-otw-racism · 11 months

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End OTW Racism Link Round-up: Week 2!

Our first (hopefully of many) two-week #EndOTWRacism action is over! Check out our post on next steps and how to stay involved if you haven’t already.

Just like our first week link round-up, here’s a collection of some of the longer-form discussion/analysis that people shared in week two (we're going with posts on tumblr, dreamwidth, and other sites, as well as twitter threads that are longer than three tweets). These are posts that we think would be helpful to consider as fandom engages in the necessary conversations about these issues.

Note: There has been a plethora of information that’s come out about OTW in the past week, particularly from former and current volunteers, which calls into question the way the organization functions and details the harm they have done to their own volunteers. Much of it does not directly reference our campaign or racism, so we won’t be sharing all of that conversation here, but you can find a round-up of that conversation at the dreamwidth account synonymous.

Tumblr

seepunkrun: I haven’t heard back from the OTW on this yet. In fact, I’m still waiting for a reply to the last letter I sent them on this subject. That’s why I’m glad to see increased transparency included in @end-otw-racism’s list of demands [link]

wondersmith-and-sons: if we're gonna be frank about otw's "anti-racism policies"/hiring of diversity consultants/attempt for social change, i'm gonna say that my good faith in them has run out a while ago and that i genuinely don't think they ever had the intention to follow through on tackling racial abuse, like, ever. [link]

elumish: In response to criticism about EndOTWRacism (part 2): one of the main questions that I see a lot about stuff like this is, how do we write policy to keep there it from backfiring or being used for purges? [link]

princeescaluswords: Activism Isn’t a Raincoat [link]

massharp1971: The right want free speech, but only for themselves [link]

Twitter

tea_deviation: this is even further off topic, but I was doing the math here and it boggles my fucking mind that ao3 is not driving towards being endowment funded? [link]

fiercynonym: i mentioned, as an aside in my thread about how OTW appears to have $2.5 MILLION that they are spending on absolutely nothing, that francesca coppa received a fan studies grant from OTW once, but i want to talk about that specific piece a little more [link]

generalfrings: For all the disingenuous raising of "concerns" at #EndOTWRacism over hypothetical volunteers that would hypothetically handle racists in AO3 (+ the dismissal of the real current harm on poc and black fans), I want to see some response for OTW actually traumatizing real volunteers [link]

_impertinence: #EndOTWRacism the way chinese fans have been sidelined and belittled by the org is so fucking disgusting [link]

hydrochaeris3: ok full disclosure this came about bc i was thinking about why i havent seen people be "pro worker" (or in the otw/ao3's case "pro volunteer") more in response to the endotwracism campaign. bc in most leftist circles ik that ppl would use workers rights arguments to push back on [link]

saathi1013: If it's anything I've learned from contemporary activism it's this: it's never "just" racism. [link]

cyrilapologist: worth considering that end otw racism is also a labor issue [link]

hydrochaeris3: stalking IS bad but i do think it's real funny that so many bnfs are coming out of the woodwork to say smthn about how upsetting it is that this white person got stalked instead of literally anything for #EndOTWRacism for the last two whole weeks [link]

aral_was_here: I'm going to keep the pfp and account name for a bit because I'm feeling pissed about how #EndOTWRacism has been dismissed by so many fans as virtue signaling or as a smokescreen for certain people they see as fandom boogeymen lying in wait to take our porn at a moment's notice. [link]

Dreamwidth

beatrice_otter: Signal boost: "Be more democratic, be more autocratic, OTW", by chestnut_pod (with background & highlights) [link]

wistfuljane: Mythical Dragons & Wild Unicorns: A Decade Later [link]

naye: The Glorious 25th of May - #EndOTWRacism [link]

naye: OTW needs a lot more transforming [link]

Other sites

enk-dash-one at fandom.ink: 1/3 Fellow white people, I encourage you to read this thread first: Then, I'd like to add, speaking exclusively to fellow white people who are worried about this: we are already racist. [link]

Klaudiasays on TikTok: let's get #EndOTWRacism trending [link]

Stitch for Teen Vogue: As #EndOTWRacism Fights for AO3 Policy Changes, Fandom Racism Bubbles to the Surface [link]

We'd love for folks to keep discussing the issues raised during this action! We organizers are probably going to go quiet for a little while to gather ourselves and work on moving forward, but if you send us posts by submitting to our tumblr, tweeting at us, messaging us on dreamwidth, or emailing us at endotwracism [at] gmail [dot], we will consider linking or posting them. We do reserve the right to only share posts that are in line with the intent of the campaign and that we believe are adding to the conversation.

#end otw racism #racism in fandom #ao3 #otw #organization for transformative works #archive of our own #fandom racism #endotwracism #link round up

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local-queer-disappointment · 1 month

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unpinning my nice fun positivity post because I want to talk a little about this space that I've created. I think a dni is stupid because people never listen anyways, which is why I haven't had one, but I still see the value in at least telling people who this little corner is for.

also YELL AT ME ON DISCORD I'M woahits_alex.mp3 IF U ASK ME ABOUT FIC RECS FOR MY FANDOMS I'LL CRY WITH HAPPINESS

you are welcome here:

- ALL queers. trans men, trans women, nonbinary, intersex, xenogender, "contradictory" labels like mspec gays/lesbians lesboys/sapphileans (omg it's me!!), slur reclaims, detransitioners who are not transphobic, mspec lesbians, aro/ace and all variations thereupon, unlabeled, questioning, etc. I love all of you. I love the community that we have. we are family, whether or not some of us want to be, and exclusionism is Not Funky Fresh!!

- pro Palestine!! I don't rb posts as much (I am scared of spreading misinformation) but I think I'll start doing that again! (don't forget your daily click guys)

- jewish people. I am specifically adding this one to say that because of the shitty Everything, I sincerely hope I have never spread any antisemitic rhetoric in support of Palestine, reblogs or otherwise. it is not your guys' job to educate me, but I hope it's clear that I'm operating in good faith.

- disabilities/cluster b disorders/systems/AAC users. I am not any of these things so if I say/do something out of line please tell me! but I love you guys and you're absolutely welcome here.

- proshippers (if this bothers you block and move on)

- furries. not personally one of y'all but I think you're neat :]

- literally, like, anyone, as long as you're not a dick

you are not welcome here:

- terfs, transphobes, exclusionists, anti-mspec, anti-lesboy, and people who think transandrophobia is "fake" or whatever. go away I don't like you (or at least be prepared to be blocked or yelled at)

- similarly to last, anyone who starts queer infighting or hates on less visible queers/strangers who don't "look" queer (I don't care if you think someone is cishet. you have no way of knowing that. let's stop hating people for immutable characteristics and start having thoughtful criticisms of people's actions thanks)

- ZIONISTS. BYE BYE

- (but also antisemites because come on now let's not do this. judiasm ≠ zionism)

- ableists, fatphobia, general dickheads. also if you're the kind of person who would tell me irl that I'm a failure for dropping out, I don't want you here!!! surprise!!!

- antis (again, either leave now or expect to be argued with)

other stuff under the cut bc this is already too long:

- I accept anonymous asks! and also non anonymous ones. ask me shit idk

- I am autistic and VERY gullible. if I reblog a "bait" post, or something that's clearly fake or a joke with a genuine reaction, I'm probably not playing some 5d irony chess I'm probably just stupid. y'all I'm sorry I'm trying :\

- I don't rb nsfw. not as, like, a rule, I just don't see the value in doing so lol. if I ever did I'd tag it and probably update this

- I argue with people!! I enjoy arguing with people!! usually it's in replies and not reblogs but still. if you are allergic to discourse maybe don't follow me? I also rb "discourse" posts, mostly transmasc support stuff, general solidarity stuff with the trans community or lgbt community as a whole, politics, current events, that kinda thing.

- this is, shockingly, supposed to be a fandom blog (I got carried away). current fandoms include: Ace Attorney (the one this blog was supposed to be about), Doctor Who (childhood hyperfixation come back to bite my ass), and Splatoon (no excuse). also MHA is basically my abusive boyfriend at this point but I'm trying to get better (not). you can find the records of my failing recovery at @alex-is-losing-sleep-over-krbk /hj (I also shamelessly rb my own posts over there lol)

and I guess since I'm mentioning fandoms, here my fav ships: wrightworth, klapollo, franmaya, thoschei, pearlina, agent 24. also somehow, completely inexplicably, cuttletavio. listen I read like one really good fic and I just think—

anyways, that's about it. love you all :]

#byeee

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girlfriendsofthegalaxy · 1 year

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tuesday again 3/7/2023

soooooo there's another classic Dad Movie character ive adopted bc ive decided he's bisexual

listening

Black Hole Baby by Superorganism. i would put a marker down and say this is the sound of the summer but this came out last summer :/ the very flat (slightly chiptune?) delivery of the lyrics combined with the hyper bouncy...squelchy??? lasers? is extremely fun. this song is neither creepy nor wet but it is viscous bc u are on a spaceship partying as a black hole is Getting You

listen. anything that starts off with subway chimes and the following lyrics is going to be good. these are good song choices in my mind.

I've been eating fruit I've been sleeping well when I can

the bridge in the middle with bits and pieces of radio hosts shouting them out-- i could take it or leave it. i do like how this band namedrops themselves constantly. it's like an oil painting at an estate sale with a huge legible signature at the bottom.

youtube

reading

i have read about three-quarters of raymond chandler's oeuvre (hardboiled detective/film noir author and screenwriter of note) this week. i cannot in good faith recommend these books because they contain some of the worst excesses of their time, which is good bc this is not a review series.

sometimes, i'm watching or reading something and i decide it would be a good tuesdaypost candidate. i hate the term consume but it's the quickest descriptor here, so bear with me. if i am consuming a work based on the recommendation of a friend, it changes how i consume the work-- i'm on the lookout for the elements they used in their pitch. if i'm consuming a work to write an article or paper (rare these days) i'm stopping halfway through to take notes, i'm rewinding to catch details, i'm delving into interviews, i often fully rewatch or reread. if i'm liveblogging something i am mostly on the lookout for humorous and/or gay bits. if in the middle of something i catch myself thinking "ooh this would be good to talk about for the tuesdaypost" that introduces another like, film or lit crit level to the rest of my time with the work. it's very difficult to turn that part of my brain off.

when i am reading things just for me, none of that is there. i am fully immersed, my disbelief is suspended. i am not thinking about anything else but the story that is being told to me. ive spent a great deal of time with these books this week and it feels weird not to talk about them, but they are something i really enjoyed that was just for me.

i honestly don't know how to unpack my enjoyment of works that (at times) reflect the quite extreme racism of their author-- the one that grabbed me the most, Farewell My Lovely, contained some of the most callous and exceptionally cruel shit i've ever read. it also contained some of the most fascinatingly complex inner workings of an extremely closeted bisexual guy with ptsd i've ever read. i don't know how to talk about these books in an interesting or balanced way.

even if i did know how to unpack these things, the brief and light weekly roundup post on goddamn tumblr dot com (home to no nuance whatsoever) would not be the venue. this is an anti-review, in a way.

watching

a fuck of a lot actually bc i'm really trying to crank out this baby blanket and podcasts aren't really doing it. same username on letterboxd if u want to see early drafts of this tuesdaypost section.

i watched many films that came on two vhs tapes when i was little, bc charlton heston was one of my mom's favorite actors. i did not see spartacus when i was little but i did see the entirety of ben hur AND the ten commandments before i was eight. i can't make that make sense either.

anyway i have a soft spot for epics but only when i am actively doing things with my hands. this one has a more interesting making-of story than the actual movie, imo. this one also had oddly christian overtones, for being set in a time where christ and christianity did not yet exist. like many critics of the time, i have no strong feelings about mr douglas' acting. i really, really liked the soundtrack-- a delight to hear the love theme in context after hearing it in a thousand different soundtrack theme compilations!

playing

nothing that wasn't a phone game i've already talked about

making

five and a half repeats!!! i am aiming for ten repeats plus some sort of i-cord border so this is roughly halfwayish

i took this in broad daylight after a meeting like "if i knit more tonight i'll take another photo" and then i didn't knit any more tonight i read a bad western and halfheartedly liveblogged it

#what the fuck IS IT about march/april that makes me go bonkers in yonkers #tuesday again #tuesday again no problem

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antiloreolympus · 2 years

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10 Anti LO Asks

1. I personally would be more willing to excuse the constant art mistakes and issues in LO if it was actually just Rachel doing it all herself. The fact the reality is actually her only sketching it out at best while her team of 4-5 people do the actual art is just inexcusable. The biggest selling point about it too is it's supposed to have great art, so why can't it even keep basic features correct? This is just ridiculous. How do you get more people working on it and it's only worse for it?

2. I think its PJO that said Gods can easily change how they appear (PJO Aphrodite for example looks how the viewer finds attractive, while PJO Persephone's looks change off the seasons) but that's all established and confirmed very early in the series and has in-universe explanations. LO has none of this minus "emotional hair" (???) so there is really no excuse Rachel & her 5+ person team can't even keep Hades' nose right. It's honestly a bit ridiculous how art issues are more frequent than not.

3. IDK why Rachel keeps pushing for Hera and Persephone to be the same person bc not only does that imply Hades wants Hera but is using Persephone to replace her, but Hera sucks?? She's an elitist jerk, she's racist against nymphs unless they're "one of the good ones" (🤢) she claims to be so loyal yet cheats on Zeus with his BROTHER, she neglects her kids to were her 8 year old has to act like an adult, she lies to her own sister, etc. Why would you want Persephone be ANYTHING like her?

4. About that thing about the kings using a fertility goddess (Gaia, Rhea) to gain power... did Rachel entirely miss that the kings themselves ARE fertility gods? Cronus is straight up an earth god, Uranus and Zeus are both sky gods (=rain)

5. sorry, no amount of "thats just the angle!" or "that's just the lighting!" can excuse rachel's piss poor character designing. the character's whole faces, bodies, and skin colors shouldn't change literally every other panel unless its copied and pasted the same panel, which even then theyre still often redrawn to look different and thus off model once again. There's no part of the story confirming their have fluid looks, so it looks even more ridiculous it can't keep even basic things on model.

6. You fools. Clearly the more creepy and controlling he gets about Persephone the longer his nose grows. Why do you think he looks even more like a swordfish now? I’ve cracked the code.

7. I’m not saying bad faith critique of LO doesn’t exist but I’m really disturbed over how the stans act like BIPOC readers, LGBTQ+ readers, SA survivors, Greeks, etc critiquing it’s very real flaws and issues that are sold to literal children is just lumped under that same bad faith argument or “being an anti”. Like?? We’re not arguing about stupid ships, we’re critiquing how it sexualizes a girl that’s barely legal, a story that frames the poor as the real oppressors to the rich and powerful, a story that uses sexual assault to push a creepy, power imbalanced ship along, a comic that spits in the face of the culture and stories it’s butchering and profiting off of, a story that (I will hope unintentionally) has very real implications of racism and antisemitism, a story that frames a slave owner and potential groomer as the best man ever, a story that took a famous bisexual god and made him the abuser to a poor little straight girl, a story claiming to be feminist yet is deeply rooted in pushing misogynistic messages, and the list goes on and on. That’s not “anti” behavior, it’s being able to critically consume this media and not being blinded by marketing and the bright colors it can’t keep consistent.

8. I feel so bad when I think about the fact I wasted all my time and energy into Lore Olympus fanart, fanfiction, fandom (discussions, theories and even arguing), compared to when I used to be in other fandoms. Like... League Of Legends fandom, yeah, that boring and ugly moba game, has made me feel much more fulfilled and welcomed, especially because of how many amazing story and world building related things they provide from time to time.

Yes, Smythe doesn't have much money to provide the fandom with interesting animations, or exclusive music videos or just basically anything other than doodles and memes and concept art... But still for some reason I feel so cheated. The amount of love and time I dedicated to Lore Olympus feels heavily one-sided.

Now it's a matter of time until another fandom will pull me in and I leave Lore Olympus behind for good. I just don't understand what kept me here so long. I suppose it's my need for closure is why I still stay. I just need to know how it ends because I don't want this whole time I wasted on this bad piece of media to be in vain.

9. I think In trying to make the comic more “serious” Rachel seems to think adding more complicated plots and “twists” makes it better, but it really doesn’t. There’s nothing wrong with telling a simple story and that’s it, especially when the hymn is pretty straightforward in what to do with it. Idk why she thinks adding plots about Kronos, Leto, Eros, Daphne, Echo, AOW, etc would somehow improve a story about HxP getting together, yet here we are.

10. Not only is Hera a Fertility Goddess despite Rachel's lack of world building, Hera also has a huge overlap with Zeus in terms of powers, such as herself being able to control the weather, cause storms, and crumble empires if she saw fit. There is a reason Zeus and Hera were paired and it wasn't just their for spicy romance, it was also the fact he was the strongest god and she was the strongest goddess. Rachel very purposely nuked Hera of her real power and still thinks she's "empowering" her!

#anti lo #anti lore olympus #lore olympus critical #lo critical

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wistfulrat · 3 years

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it’s the katie leung john boyega kelly marie tran [insert other poc here] experience of somehow being at the center of white media and getting none of the supposed satisfaction bc at the end of the day, you’re not meant to be in those spaces. you’re just meant to be props for white escapism. and if you think transformative spaces like fanfic communities are immune to that exact method of silencing poc, you’re not paying attention.

every day i think about hp and other globally popular western media as conduits for cultural colonialism and the prevalence of whiteness in fandom and the america-centric internet and the inaccessibility of escapism when most fantasy is just another word for euro/western/anglo dreamscapes.

this is the context of what you’re responding to. most of the time being a fan is fun and harmless and i think 99% of people here have good intentions so this post isn’t even targeted at anyone specific and more just the culture itself. bc god, fandom is so very white. i love it here but when u come across posts comparing targeted cyber bullying to the witch burnings of actual indigenous people and the impacts of colonialism that killed off thousands upon thousands of us before imperialists ever reached salem. when u come across discourse that says fandom is an inherently inclusive space because women and lgbtq+ communities built it and yet, it only takes being here for a couple months to be reminded that when they mean inclusive, they mean white. when the attempt at solidarity is tainted by minimizing non-white oppression in progressive spaces. it’s exhausting.

im not a book burner, i like ao3, i read the brit lit canon. i like hp for what it is—a british children’s series about magic, war, found fam, etc. but these are colonial texts and holy fuck the compulsory whiteness of it all. and the way we never enjoy things in a vacuum bc the rest of the world outside western nations were explicitly forced to elevate white aesthetics since the dawn of imperialism. you think subcultures aren’t affected by that? ao3 is growing rapidly as fannish works move closer to mainstream. and yes, i know that this is explicitly because marginalized people have worked hard to fight for freedom of thought/speech/creativity. i am not interested in policing that space because the net positive outweighs the shit bits in my perspective.

but it’s the way the slightest hint of criticism against popular media and the fan works created for it is silenced with a swift “let people enjoy things” when the Thing that is being perpetuated and enjoyed is the very center of white media and white fantasy and white imagination and even white queerness. people will rally against a resurgence of harmful purity culture (as they should) but in the same breath, talk about that as if it’s akin to systematic genocide against non-white people groups. i don’t understand the need to conflate those experiences when the danger you face online as a white woman is still inherently protected by your whiteness. and like yes, marginalized people have made a home out of fic spaces. yes, your fear of that space being taken away is completely valid. but this is still a predominantly white community. and white grief is always, always the priority. that is a safety that you can count on because no social class can match that power of being at the center of culture creating.

so it’s just exhausting as poc in fandom, when you see how non-white creators and fans are treated, and always having to be the nicest, sweetest, most docile version of ourselves because we’re constantly being painted as toxic bullies with an inability to relax/unclench around problematic art. like you all wonder why fandom remains a predominately white space. it’s just wildly uncomfortable being here when you want to enjoy women and lgbtq+ art and transgressive works in general but knowing that support is just not reciprocated.

edit: i wrote a better/more thorough follow up post to talk about good faith discussions vs. shipping wars, colonialism, unhelpful anti/pro discourse, and the role of cultural criticism in transformative spaces if any of you are interested

#sometimes fandom is cool and other times it is just whiteness remixed so #anyway if u critically enjoy things this doesn’t apply to you i’m just exhausted #but um yeah #can non-white hp fans hop in my inbox bc i feel insane #txt

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cobraonthecob · 4 years

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Stop Holding Each Other Back, Dang It! - Part 1

Another messy anti-Kataa/ng essay no one asked for but this has been on my mind for two hours so I’m writing it anyways.

Narratively speaking, Kataa/ng makes zero sense. No symbolism that fits the themes of the show is probably my biggest strike against K/ataang, but there’s another part: How they hold each other back, specifically, how Ka.tara (intentionally or not) holds Aan/g back.

Part 1 is going to be about how K.atara holds Aa/ng’s development, Part 2 is going to be how Aan/g and K/ataang overshadowed Katara and just...well, y’all know how LoK and the comics went.

(this is all going to be from memory so if I miss an episode...rip)

And now on with the messily thrown together meta! :D

Let’s start with the Southern Air Temple. She covers up the Fire Nation helmet in an attempt to spare his feelings, and this brutally backfires on her when Momo leads Aa.ng to Gyatso’s skeleton and goes into the Avatar State in order to process his grief and shock.

The next major episode is The Storm, when Kat.ara tells Aan.g that his running away issue is not a bad problem. Yes and no, on that statement. On one hand, it let him survive the Air Nomad Genocide, but on the other hand, he still ran away. I wouldn’t have had a big problem with this had it not been continually rewarded (something I might’ve mentioned in my Bumbleby and K.ataang contrast meta).

After these two episodes, the show shows in little ways on how much faith Ka.tara puts onto Aa.ng on him being the last hope for the world and also increases her motherly drive to protect him. This especially pops up in Bitter Work.

With a new teacher comes a new teaching style, and Top.h does not pull her punches. Where Katar.a is gentle, T.oph is tough, where Kat.ara coddles, To.ph essentially throws A.ang onto his face. Top.h is critical and almost brutal at times, whereas Kata.ra encourages and gently corrects, which probably stems from The Waterbending Scroll, where the one time Ka.tara does get to snap at A.ang, Aa/ng nearly cries and she freaks out and apologizes for being frustrated (I remember someone talking about Kata.ra’s reaction being “I’m the worst mom ever” lol, if I find it I’ll reblog it). Kat.ara, already having abandonment issues/unable to hurt Aang’s feelings in a way that would lead to character growth with Aang (running away in The Storm, nearly crying when she snaps at him in The Waterbending Scroll) already shows Kata.ra and A.ang’s incompatibility. Sure, it’s nice that your partner encourages you, but not to the point where they blind themselves to your faults. Other people have written metas that better articulate this point.

I could say Bitter Work foreshadows K.atara unknowingly holding Aan/g back, as later in the season in The Guru, A.ang gives up mastering the Avatar State in favor of rescuing Ka/tara (because apparently being a minute away from mastering the AS is a problem? He was ready to give it all up until he saw that Kata.ra was in trouble, and if he mastered the AS, he’d really be able to save her so???? I need to make another meta about this oh dear) Kat.ara coddles him, strokes his ego, and kisses his boo-boos, along with looking to him as the pinnacle of hope and peace. To a 12-year-old, this looks like the ideal girlfriend, and I don’t exactly fault him for thinking that given that he’s twelve and this is his first full-on crush (and then the narrative goes on to reward him with her. Ew. *shudders*)

However, A.ang’s growth suffers because of Kat.ara’s mothering/overprotectiveness (Katara treats him vastly different than Top.h and Sok.ka, let’s be real, she goes through T.oph’s stuff in The Runaway and gives Sokk.a a piece of her mind) - sure, he does deserve encouragement, but sometimes, you got to give someone a shove or a kick in the pants to make them do something. Kata.ra soothing A.ang’s ego didn’t really help him earthbend at all, all it did was get him to understand that learning to earthbend was not going to be a walk in the park learning waterbending was. I might be confusing fanon with canon bc sometimes fics are just that good, but other instances in the show has Kata/ra being gentle with A.ang or never having them address the issue. honestly i would kill to see a convo between them about why Aa.ng didn’t master the Avatar State before coming to rescue Ka.tara but that’s a fic for another time

TL;DR: Kataa/ng is on really shaky foundation once you get past the lack of symbolism and inability to tie in with the show’s themes, and is further hit due to K/atara being way too protective of Aan.g to see his faults properly. There’s a lot of baggage to unpack that deserves a meta or a fix-it fic (as if I didn’t have like ten of those sitting around my drive already) of its own to expand on. Past meta have also talked about the one-sidedness of Katara and Aang’s relationship in how much the emotional support goes to and how poorly they communicate what they actually want.

#nightfalcon posts #nightfalcon rants #atla salt #a:tla salt #atla critical #a:tla critical #long post #kataang salt #anti kataang #aang critical #katara critical

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tfw-no-tennis · 3 years

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mtmte liveblog issue 15

death awaits!

oh god the cover. I aint ready

the cover of overlords open mouth w/rodimus floating inside or w/e,,,,the overlord mouth fixation continues i see

and of COURSE its by nick roche. of course

oh god the tension and dread in the first page, as we get overlords sinister promise to murder everyone, starting with rewind, and then seeing chromedome rush over to open the door, and knowing that 30 minutes have passed already...

that full page spread of everyone vs overlord is amazing

also I always thought that ambulon was trying to kick overlord but now that I look closer he’s actually jumping away from overlord, having just crashed one of those hover...thingys....into him...which is honestly cool as hell. also I'm never over the fact that ambulon kinda looks like he’s smiling here, just having a grand ole time as overlord tries his best to murder everyone

and chromedome just seeing this and saying ‘rewind?’ is fucking killing me thanks

PIPES NO DONT DO THIS. YOURE JUST RUBBING SALT IN THE WOUND. PLEASE don't talk about how much fun you're having on your wacky space adventure oh god, that’s just asking to be murdered,

GOD AND THERE HE GOES, DRIVING TO HIS DOOM. PIPES NO

AUGHHHHHHHHHH AND THERES OVERLORD WITH HIS GIANT FOOT. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

PIIIIIPES ;_;

his messed up goodbye thoughts are brutal...plus the final shot of him laying all busted up....god :(

that guy seriously had some awful luck this trip. rip lil guy

BUT he sounded the alarm!!! so good for him!! that's a pretty amazing final act right there

oh my god I forgot abt this scene where rewind is like ‘so brainstorm why is my husband saying your name in his sleep :))))’ and brainstorm is like ‘haha idk its certainly not because we’re working on a secret project together, so jot that down!’ lmao brainstorm....

also dw rewind brainstorm is not fucking ur husband, just look at his evidentially extensive collection of perceptor-style microscopes...my man is microscopesexual

I forgot abt the metabomb omfg

‘some of my favorite words are monosyllabic’ rodimus ily, himbo of my heart,

fort max :( rung :(

oughhghghg I forgot abt the scene of tailgate making cyclonus a new horn ;_; and then cyclonus materializes menacingly bc tg dared to volunteer their room for movie night hvbfshdjkfbaskj cyclonus anti-social icon

AUGHHHH GOD THE PANEL OF RATCHET TALKING ON THE COMMS AND OVERLORD IS JUST, RIGHT BEHIND HIM, WITH HIS BIG STUPID LIPS, OH MY GOD

what the fuck, is drift a flying car??? hello??? what the hell????

seriously he’s got like, rockets and shit, what the fuck

anyways, the entire exchange b/w ratchet and drift here kills me, for multiple reasons.... ‘my faith and my sword’ lmao love it. and then ratchet refusing to leave drift and calling him his friend ;_; aughhh

rodimus w/the squad like ‘lets go gays!!!’

also I guess cosmos WAS on the lost light lol, totally didn't remember that, I'm guessing he left at some point to go be in the other series lmao

I'm sorry but ‘amazing. you speak entirely in name’ is so fucking funny, but also like stfu overlord you're not allowed to be funny

MAGNUSSSSSSSS

now I'm confusing myself lmao, rodimus DID know abt overlord, didn't he??? wasn't that the whole thing???? I don't remember if he was involved w/the whole mnemosurgery plan but he at least knew that overlord was there...but we haven't been told that in-story yet so now I'm questioning that lmao

oh god I forgot that overlord almost kills magnus, jeeeeesus. good thing he’s a russian nesting doll otherwise he probably would've died fr

also damn that's gotta be scary for everyone else, bc magnus is The Big Guy, and a renown fighter...plus drift got all fucked up...yall are in for a bad time

tailgate gettin his panic on I see

swerve w/the meta narration lmao

cyclonus ily sm.......

rodimus charging at overlord....ohhh my boy not your best idea

cd and rewind both saying ‘I thought you were dead!’ HHHHHHHH I'm destroyed fuck it all

rodimus (inadvertently) saving the day by saying ‘til all are one’...iconic!!

FORT MAX IS HEREEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

drift just casually chillin w/no legs

chromedome going into extreme detail about all the mnemosurgery he’s been doing on overlord for WEEKS while rewind is Right There....my dude.

this issue has a LOT of completely white backgrounds but I cant even rlly blame milne bc this seems like more drawing work than usual

oh god cd don't say ‘we’ll finish this conversation later’ at a time like this, that’s never a good idea,

rewind no don't do it :( :( :(

that panel of cd’s arm getting cut off...AUGHHH

GODDDDDDD IM FUCKING CRYING. AUGHHHHHHHHHHH I.....

so incredibly fucked that cd does what’s best for rewind by blowing the pod up....hhhhh god

and then that last panel of cd laying on the ground....fucking destroy me!!!!!!!!

also I love that at the beginning of the issue we see whirl with the missile launcher thing, and that’s what cd uses at the end here....good bookends. jro is really great about putting stuff in the story that just seems like innocuous filler/fun character building but turns out to ALSO be plot relevant later

HOLY SHIT I forgot about the cast page with the big red X’s thru the dead people’s profiles....jesus christ

AUGH this issue was a rollercoaster, phew...and the emotionally devastating conclusion to this arc is still yet to come!

I will say that it’s super interesting looking back on this, in the sense that rewind & chromedome are introduced as the first ever gay tf couple, and a few issues after we get told this explicitly, rewind is killed. this doesn't really end up being an issue representation-wise bc literally everyone is gay and there are a bunch of other significant gay characters/relationships later on, AND rewind comes back later

but still! it’s interesting to think about how, at the time this came out, the phrase/concept ‘bury your gays’ wasn't really something that was talked about a lot (or like, it was, but not as often as nowadays, and not really under the term ‘bury your gays’ iirc), but at the time of publication this would have fallen under that trope (though rewind coming back later negates it imo). I think it would've been tough for this story to come out nowadays due to the backlash that would've occurred from rewind’s initial death (it also makes me wonder if there was any backlash when this DID come out)

to be clear, this isn't a writing criticism - in fact, the reason this is able to work at all is because of the crazy amount of representation mtmte has. it’s like, youre able to kill off gay characters without it being ‘bury your gays’ if literally all your characters are gay by default, and there are a bunch of significant gay relationships happening - technically speaking, any death in mtmte is bury your gays lmao

this is a completely disjointed rant but my point is like, if this issue came out in 2020 people would probably be pretty put off by rewind dying (understandably), but in the context of the series as a whole I don't consider this to be bad writing/bad representation/bury your gays

and like, WERE people really mad about this in 2013? I am curious now, bc I would definitely feel kinda betrayed if I didn't know all the stuff that happens later

but its pretty nice, because now I'm free to enjoy the writing and be emotionally devastated by rewinds death in a normal way, and not a ‘I'm angry at the writers for killing off one of the only gay characters’ kinda way

anyways I'm tired as hell so I'm going to bed, ill continue the emotional devastation later, phew

#lj rereads mtmte

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mercurywaterblue · 5 years

Text

The Truth About the Tumblessrr

What People Think Tumblr Is Like---

-SJWS

-Angry Feminists all up in your mouth and nose

-Those trans folk transitioning

-Fandom shit

-Aesthetics

-Photography

-Funny shitposting

-Shoplifting groups

-Funny shit that gets screenshoted and reposted to Pinterest/Facebook

-Sherlock

-More fandom shit but this time it's pornographic (o wait shit they banned the ding dongs now, so no?)

-Funny jokes, but this time they are gen-z style humor

-Reverse Racism !!1111!!

-Art

-Complex discussions of the impact of Colonialism

-Porn

-Edgelords

-more evil sjws

-Evil socialists

-Fanart

Actual Tumblr

-Assholes

-Boogerheads

-Daddy kinks

-Mens rights acne-ists

- Fetishs

- People who want to fuck anything and everything

-Radical Right wingers who think left wingers should be hung

-Gun nuts who have somehow convinced themselves politicians are oppressing them

-Freaks

-Capitalist stans

-I’m not racist, bu...

-Women haters

-Socialists

-people who hate humanity aka more pro capitalist rhetoric

-just so many fuckwads

-Fanfic recs

- Headcannons

-pro any shipping aka anti-antis aka pedo and incest supporters

-Flat earthers

-People who think looking at a teen is pedophlia

-People who repost tweets

-Like one wholesome meme or faith in humanity post

-ppl who tell you their entire identity and history in their bio

-like they gotta tell u they are christian so u dont send porn i guess

-Actual good content

-more assholes & idiots

-People who wish Tumblr would die but still use it

-Animal blogs

-Serial killers stans

-Dragonkin

-Furries

-Mythology buffs

-So much D&D

-Critical Role

-Plants

-Crazy fuckers who mock mentally/physically disabled people but clearly have severe issues of their own

-More fan art

-Gifs

-Hentai no it’s still there, Apple

-You aren’t ever allowed to enjoy anything

-Harry Potter created transphobia

-Trans and non binary ppl

-Half of them are really cool & amazing

-Half call people terfs for liking something they don’t

-just bc u dont like something doesnt mean its transphobic

-and in general ppl who cant deal with nuance or just want to start drama bc

-Lesbians (who are all trans)

-Non trans/non-binary people

-Who are all gun obsessed nutcases

-Sherlock

-Lack of nuance discussions, and by discuss I mean flip out over people not liking the same shit

-Misogyny

-Cyberbullying

-Aesthetics

-Funny content

-porn memes

-porn gifs

-they are still here apple

-Voltron

-Avatar

-Vagueposting

-Childish drama

-Accusations of content theft

-Good omens

-Art

-Like 3 ppl who actually know what social justice is

-Anti-fujoshis who don’t mind men fantasizing over lesbians

-More ppl who want to start drama

-Teenagers

-YA book lit

-Bizarre memes

-Teens who accuse everyone who looks at a kid of being a pedo

-Sherlock

-Horse weirdness

-That king arthur or merlin show whatver that ended four score years ago but people still shipping it

-Memes

-Trolling

-Actual good discourse

-fan art

-ppl who post something like ‘penis meat!’ and get 10,000 reblogs

-People who do the same but get like 4 reblogs

-People thirsting over ugly ass celebs

-Loki

-anti anti aka pedo blogs who act oppressed

-Christians who act oppressed

-Sewing

-Riverdale

-Sexy half naked anime girl blogs

-Thorki

-Shitposts so abstract they have become dada esque humor

-more stupid drama

-Writing advise blogs

-people accused of being terfs who prob aren’t

-actual transphobes

-Call outs

-more creepy far right culture shit

-ppl telling kids to kill themselves

-K-pop

-Marvel vs DC -Homestuck

-ppl who love steven universe

-ppl who hate it and think fans should die

-Your fav is problamatic

-Fashion

What am I forgetting?

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medievalcat · 6 years

Text

ok. I finished Children of God (sequel to The Sparrow), and while I was able to follow it better than when I first read it (I think I was really distracted a few years ago, and had trouble focusing).....I didn’t like it as much as the first one, which I’m aware isn’t an unpopular opinion, even though I didn’t hate all of it. Here are my thoughts on why it didnt work imo and what I did like about it.

The Sparrow would naturally be a hard act to follow, and I get that sometimes sequels do different things than the first installations. book one is about Emilio and book two is about Rakhat. Okay. I think there’s a lot of interesting material that could have been made of Emilio, John, and all the new guys visiting Rakhat years after the first expedition. It’s what the author did- and, really, this was present in the first book as well, and one of the first book’s issues, but here it’s really one of the main points of the story and far more prominent than ever before- that didn’t succeed. It’s the story of Rakhat....but given how Rakhat is written, maybe it shouldnt have been. This book honestly ranged from “enjoyable” to “disappointing” to “implicitly or explicitly expressing horrible views”.

It’s one thing to make an oppression storyline in a fantasy setting- FMA for example does this. But in that, the victims are humans. In this, not only does the story do an oppression narrative about fantasy creatures, which is already a very difficult thing to pull off, she repeatedly draws comparisons between nonhuman aliens and things like the Holocaust and genocide and oppression of Native Americans. She even has her one native character draw this comparison and *stay behind on another planet instead of going to earth* for some “reservation” plotline at the end. This is a good example of why when we criticize media sometimes we have to focus specifically on the writers who choose to make these events happen, who choose to write certain stories and who choose to frame them in certain ways. I’m kind of glad this book doesn’t have a fandom, really, because tumblr types would focus on which aliens’ side is “right” and not on the fact that the author chose to write some fantasy creature oppression story with incoherent imperialism commentary while trivializing real genocides. I remember a really uncomfortable paragraph in the first one that implied the Ottoman Empire was some kind of safe haven for all ethnic/religious groups as well as a line (keep in mind these were written in the 90s) about how Bosnia is violent because of ............ “blood feuds”. Many people have said this story is weak because it focused on these new alien characters and the Rakhat storyline so much. This, for me, is the main reason why that storyline was so weak.

One thing I liked was some of the new characters. I liked Danny and Joseba and Nico and Sean and Gina and Pope Gelasius. I think this book kind of did a “later season of Vikings” so that there were suddenly all these new people but few of them got good development. So that was a weakness but I didn’t mind many of the characters in and of themselves and enjoyed these new additions. Sure they weren’t like the people in the first book but that’s okay. They added new perspectives. Danny had a lot of interesting stuff about forgiveness that I liked. I also liked initially how Sofia was revealed to be alive but....she was shafted. We barely see her in favor of her badly offensively written written son (I know this was written 20 years ago but. the way he and his disability are portrayed as like...literally “alien” even though ths is supposed to be a “positive”.... is honestly....why the living fuck did she do this....) and Supaari’s daughter who he CONCEIVED FROM RAPE and we’re just supposed to be ok with that bc the author very conveniently wrote the victim to be as unsympathetic as possible and because “uwu miracle of life!! yay children!” I’m supposed to buy that Sofia, a child trafficking survivor, is allies and friends with a man who not only is a rapist but sold a person she loved into sex slavery.......after the narrative called to attention how similar Sofia and Emilio’s experiences were, and the first book was an imperfect story but a deep introspective exploration of the effects of SA.....lol ok. And then she gets killed off at the end offscreen in a single sentence.

There’s also....I really doubt she intended some of this but it’s clearly in the story .... it really has bad implications, that the only relations between men are abusive in both books. there are literally no other relations between men, even though there is a gay character (who I understand is a celibate priest, and having a gay priest is cool!) but....it just doesnt have good implications that relations between men are only ever presented as bad. especially because the thing that truly “heals” Emilio is being with a woman and I think in our society (and thus our media) we have a real problem with thinking that “healing” as a sexual abuse victim means having sex with a man if youre a woman and with a woman if you’re a man, and that male sa victims of men are only really victims if they like women (and, of course, women sa victims in general just have to like men). Of course there is nothing wrong with Gina, I loved her, and nothing is wrong with writing an sa survivor who is able to have a relationship after. But MDR killed her off for no good reason. The other crew members dying in the first book, those were well written character deaths. and how many times did she do the “this woman died but thats whatever narratively, because she has a kid uwu miracle of life” thing in this sequel. I think MDR is like GRRM in that she has good intentions clearly, and has such good sff works/characters and takes oh the Human Experience and everything, but doesn’t always know how to handle issues in a responsible way and it’s really glaring even if there are obviously worse people in media. To be honest (and again, here Im glad there’s no fandom, because people are so weird about this stuff) MDR should have just had Emilio and John be together. “Your friendship should have been proof enough of God” ???????? hello?????? Their relationship was one of the things that actually was well fleshed out in the sequel until John and all the other guys who weren’t in the Camorra just.....stayed on Rakhat forever.

Part of the handling of Sofia seemed like a broader pattern of the plot being completely forced. Everything happens for some sake of The Plot- this is something later seasons of GOT have been criticized for. This plot in particular, in addition to the alien oppression metaphor, seemed to want to make everything about the story in particular its end be some kind of “bookend” to mirror the first book. Sofia dies (for real this time. honestly....her death in the first one was good writing!), Emilio and his unlikely escorts go home, no one else gets to go home, there’s a huge societal upheaval on Rakhat because of the humans, a huge reveal about Rakhat’s “divine” music. I have nothing against this kind of narrative device but when it’s this forced to the point where the story is blatantly constructed for the sake of this......it didn’t work. The “music” plot twist was like..............really??? All of that? They’re staying on this planet? If they had all gotten more time in the story (because this book is the same length as the first book but has far more different subplots and far longer of a timespan and far more narrators) we might find that more plausible. I don’t think everything needs to be spelled out for us. In the first book when everyone is stranded, it’s clear that they think this is tragic, but they are trying to make the best of it because they all love each other and are together. In this one they don’t all have that kind of bond and it’s dependent on the long-winded and incoherent Rakhat political storyline. Because a lot of it isn’t even that well developed in addition to the earlier addressed things. We go between random one-off characters. So much is about the war but it’s written so anti-climatically. Sofia broke down in the first book when she learned they were stranded, and now she doesn’t care at all about returning back to Earth because the Runa are “her people” now, but how much of that is really what she tells herself to cope with what she lost- and what she experienced on earth in her youth? we don’t know. The Pope just....sent Emilio who became probably the most infamous person on Earth, back into space, and it wasn’t a big deal for the Church or at all? And all it took for it to happen was a handful of Camorra men with Vatican connections, who were just adapted so well to space travel and extended time on a new planet that initially made the people in the first book sick when transitioning into life there? And let me reiterate we’re supposed to accept that the divinely ordained reason all this happened was because Isaac wrote music inspired by human and alien dna and it sounded wonderful?

This just felt very forced. “Emilio never wants to go back to Rakhat so obviously this book has to be about how he goes back there and accepts that it actually happened for a Good Reason bc of some music, and music was the way they found it in the first place.” How about how he accepts that it happened and comes to terms with what happened to him without either hating himself for his actions or thinking it was all For The Greater Good Actually, because you cant undo the past, aka what the first book was building up to and culminated in? idk. the first book was all about how bad things happen and that this doesn’t mean we have to give up our faith even if we question our faith. this was more like “every cloud has a silver lining lol”.

There were many nice things- Emilio’s friendship with Nico, many of the moments with Sofia towards the end and her reuniting with Emilio, John getting more to do, the new Pope, Celestina ending up having an important job as a theater and leaving a trail of men in her wake lol. I don’t want to say don’t read this. But if you like the first book you might not like this one, and if you’re considering reading the first book, it.....works best as a standalone.

#i say things #book blogging #given that this talks about uh certain Things i'd prefer no reblogs lol

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eeveelutionsforequality · 6 years

Text

Submission:

@Mod Vaporeon I guess

Look I aint a fan of MAPs but if they're not hurting anyone then whatevs

BUT anti-contact maps that still gush about how attractive children are are still harming them. Sexualising children is harmful. Normalising attraction to children by talking about it like it's just a regular crush thing, or being all cutsey about it is harmful. I really hope I don't need to tell you why that is the case.

https://shameshack.tumblr.com/post/166785893508/the-creepy-emoji-really-sells-it-on-the-you-dont

Does that person touch any of those children, her own included? Does she even flirt with them? No, I don't think so. But going "ohhhh my kid-crush is fugly as now he's a teen but his younger sister?? JUST got into my pedophile range and she is fine." *Cue another MAP engaging with them, discussing it without a hint of shame and a fucking smirking emoji*

Allowing MAPs a platform to talk about coping with their thoughts and offering support and methods of non-harmful coping with other MAPs? Great! Chatting away with others about how lean, athletic and soft a child's body is without a hint of remorse until they're called out, because they're blog and those posts are fucking public on a 13+ age site? And therefore is absolutely open to a child stumbling only their blog because it's public? Not cool.

Just because they wouldn't touch a child doesn't mean it's okay to try and normalise children being sexually attractive. We can look at it as an intrusive thoughts thing, sure, and I agree that's the best way to get MAPs help! But that doesn't mean those thoughts are okay. Someone with intrusive thoughts about how they're the reincarnation of Hitler and must restart his legacy shouldn't just be forgiven if they ham it up with a bunch of Nazis because "they can't help it and hey I never actually harmed any Jews (physically anyway, but w/e I'm not culpable for any Jew I harmed with my posts bc the only way someone can get onto a blog is OBVIOUSLY if they're looking for it amiright so it's their fault)!"

We can accept that MAPs have little to no control over their attraction without accepting that their attraction is valid, reasonable or worth discussing except to demonise. If these MAPs were truly as saintly and suffering as you make them out to be they wouldn't be all cutesy and wink wink nudge nudge about discussing it, because they would understand that attraction to children is wrong regardless of how much they can help it.

MAPs need help, not a niche on Tumblr that defend their attraction and their "non-contact but still skeevy af" actions.

Idk if you're gonna say you agree with me or whether you're gonna pull a "not all MAPs are like that!" or w/e but there is an undeniable issue with the MAP community on Tumblr, and that the ones like the above are as harmful as the Nazis that have "thought experiments" on what the world would be like without black people.

First off, please go back and re-read my opinions.

Such as the ramble where I explained how positivity without pragmatism and awareness of risks is dangerous: http://eeveelutionsforequality.tumblr.com/post/167978864727/grunkle-rian-eeveelutionsforequality

Or the post where I talk about the risk of radicalization in a community and condemn maps who talk about it like infatuated school girls, referring to the very post you linked: http://eeveelutionsforequality.tumblr.com/post/167769139872/what-the-hell-are-maps

If you want to discuss this with me, please come at it in good faith and discussing my actual beliefs, not twisting my opinions into things they're not.

"Idk if you're gonna say you agree with me or whether you're gonna pull a "not all MAPs are like that!" or w/e"

Yeah, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to pull a not all maps because not all maps - some just wanna tell you where Greenland is.

In all seriousness, no, I do not agree with judging an entire demographic by their bad eggs - "not all maps" wouldn't be inaccurate to say. I think it's shitty that saying "not all X" has become something that's shrugged off as you simply defending X from an emotional standpoint, even when you're just stating a fact - not all men, not all maps, and if somebody's argument relies on all of a group being something that they're not then it's a bad argument.

"there is an undeniable issue with the MAP community on Tumblr, and that the ones like the above are as harmful as the Nazis that have "thought experiments" on what the world would be like without black people"

I criticize both them and the Nazis whenever I see them doing something out of line, I try to explain why they're wrong and help people see other perspectives - that's a tonne of what I do on this blog, I talk to people about my opinions on particular topics and criticize things that I think should be criticized. I have, at no point, said that the map community is flawless - in fact, I've been vocal in criticizing certain methods and in saying that I think that they need to listen to people's concerns and approach conversation from a point of empathy rather than defensiveness far more than they do.

"anti-contact maps that still gush about how attractive children are are still harming them. Sexualising children is harmful. Normalising attraction to children by talking about it like it's just a regular crush thing, or being all cutsey about it is harmful."

Unfortunately, like everything in this dark and stressful topic, this is more complicated than that. I believe that I've made it clear in previous posts how creepy and unsavoury I find the way that the people in your example talked about it, and that I'm not on board with what they were doing.

However, there are a few factors that I think should be taken into account in working out how best they as an individual should manage talking about their interests themselves. On one hand, you have the dwelling or "normalizing" of it to themselves, and the discomfort such conversations cause others. On the other hand, you have the fact that locking away your feelings and struggles isn't good for you (you can dwell or "normalize" something to yourself without ever mentioning it verbally or in typing - in fact, expressing it is one of very few ways to have it actually challenged). To that end, I don't think that public tumblr posts, and especially not encouraging replies, are the way to go about getting certain feelings out. However, only talking amongst each other can lead to echochambers - I mean, if you think that them saying those things publicly can increase the risk and that they need to have those things challenged, then surely them simply moving that to messages isn't the answer you want.

Amongst other things, I've been vocal about how maps should seek therapy/counselling and should be ensuring that their community doesn't become an echochamber, especially encouraging them to allow and take on board fair criticism (and encouraging others to present their criticism in fair ways rather than attacks, insults and suicide baiting).

They're only human, and they do need people to talk to about these things and to get things off their chests - they're not perfect, they're not angels - and while therapy can play a part in achieving that, they also likely need a support network (otherwise they wouldn't be part of the map community in the first place). If/when you've ever had a crush that was disgusting or wrong in some way, did you keep it inside and start wondering whether there was something wrong with you, or did you tell somebody you trusted how you felt?

I don't think that publicly saying it on tumblr, especially not in the manner that they did (in fact, the tone is possibly my biggest issue with it), was good for them or good for the people that saw it (and, by extension, could've emotionally harmed children that saw it) - but I don't think that means that they're not ever allowed to talk about it, or that it's harming children if they ever do, just that it's gotta be done safely and reasonably.

You sound just like an anti-shipper right now, honestly.

I'm totally up for talking about how to prevent echochambers in whatever place they find to vent, while also preventing people who could be triggered and minors from accessing such a place, and helping the maps keep a constant wall between thoughts and actions, ensuring that discussing something in a place specifically catered to discussing it doesn't translate into any kind of warped perspective on how you can behave towards children. In fact, that'd be a great conversation to know was going on in their community - but at the moment nobody seems to be actually talking about solutions to problems or whatever, one side just wants to attack and the other side just wants to defend, so these things only ever get brought up in a "look how bad maps are" way.

"Allowing MAPs a platform to talk about coping with their thoughts and offering support and methods of non-harmful coping with other MAPs? Great!"

I totally agree, and I'm glad that we share this common ground - it's more than most offer them.

But unfortunately at some point we have to realize that learning how to cope with thoughts partially entails talking about the thoughts you're trying to cope with. The same goes for people who occasionally post things about wanting to die or wanting to drink themselves stupid - the posts can be harmful if seen by the wrong person, and if seen by the right person they can result in much needed help, or simply a shoulder to cry on. That's one of the uses of the tagging and blacklisting we have on this site - to ensure that the right people see the right posts, and the wrong people never have to. Plus, there's a balance to be found in expressing stuff, and a lot of it comes down to how and where they're talking about the thoughts - the people in the link you posted got both wrong, in my opinion.

"Chatting away with others about how lean, athletic and soft a child's body is without a hint of remorse until they're called out, because they're blog and those posts are fucking public on a 13+ age site? And therefore is absolutely open to a child stumbling only their blog because it's public? Not cool."

Again, I don't know why you're posing this as an argument against me when I've openly condemned that post multiple times.

The appropriate tagging, password protected blogs, NSFW marked blogs, adequate warnings, etc, would prevent these posts from ever falling into the path of someone who isn't looking for them, especially a child, and maps should be utilizing those features. Plus, 13+ year olds aren't children, they're teenagers (but I'm not particularly complaining about that because I call everyone under like 30 "kid"). I've been encouraging people to stop turning safe search off when they're too young, to stop seeking out that kind of content, and to utilize blacklisting and chrome filters and such, and I've been encouraging maps and shippers and kinksters to adequately tag things.

And, outside of pro-contacts and that particular example, I've only once (that I can remember) seen maps publicly talk about someone being attractive who wasn't either an adult or a fictional character (and it wasn't done in the way that the example did) - maybe I only interact with the good ones, that's entirely possible, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. I've also seen multiple antis posing as maps lately. The actual genuine maps that I've interacted with have had a similar opinion to mine on this topic - they understand why people don't like that sort of thing, they don't want children to find it, but they want to get things off their chest and be allowed to vent sometimes. So, and you're not gonna like this... not all maps.

"Just because they wouldn't touch a child doesn't mean it's okay to try and normalise children being sexually attractive."

Why are you bothering with the maps on here then? A tiny and hated subgroup on a tiny and hated website is not normalizing anything in society (and they don't want to, in my experience, they just want it understood and not to be treated like shit for it) - what about the countries where young boys and girls are routinely used as prostitutes, where assaulting young boys regularly is "tradition"?

Maybe I'm just manipulated, maybe there's some grand scheme to turn everybody in the western world into pro-contacts, and a tiny anti-contact community on tumblr dot com is where the disgusting revolution begins... but I highly doubt it. I'm trusting them when they say that their intent is to find the most effective way to support each other and to live their lives safely and without offending, while hopefully teaching others that pedophilia and child abuse aren't synonymous, that maybe there's prevention methods, that maybe they don't deserve to die.

"But that doesn't mean those thoughts are okay."

Is this just an experiment to see how many times in a row you can make me say "I never said that"?

I have, however, said that things you have zero control over do not dictate whether or not you are a bad person - mostly in regards to slavery from generations ago not dictating whether people alive today are good or bad, but it applies here too.

What does whether or not the thoughts are "okay" have to do with any of this? Plenty of my intrusive thoughts aren't "okay" - that's part of why they're so hellish to deal with, because they disturb me. I can't do anything about them though. I can't make them disappear. Whether or not they're "okay" is irrelevant - how to cope with them is what's important. I don't care for ascribing morality to the thoughts, it's like ascribing morality to the sun - it's there, it's doing shit, if I'm an idiot it'll burn me, but if I'm pragmatic about it everything'll be okay.

The maps can't magic away their thoughts either, neither can therapy, so whether their thoughts are "okay" or not is also irrelevant - what matters is how they can go about coping with those thoughts, and part of that is via their support network.

"Someone with intrusive thoughts about how they're the reincarnation of Hitler and must restart his legacy shouldn't just be forgiven if they ham it up with a bunch of Nazis because "they can't help it and hey I never actually harmed any Jews (physically anyway, but w/e I'm not culpable for any Jew I harmed with my posts bc the only way someone can get onto a blog is OBVIOUSLY if they're looking for it amiright so it's their fault)!""

Honestly, I'm so surprised that the award for worst analogy of 2017 got snatched away from the previous leader so late into the year.

Person with intrusive thoughts of being Hitler (believing you're actually Hitler reincarnated would be a delusion, not an intrusive thought, by the way, but I'll forgive you) is being compared to an anti-contact map, right? So by extension the comparison for neo-nazis would be child molesters or pro-contacts. Because other anti-contact maps would be other people who think they're Hitler, while people who actually genuinely wanna preach nazism are people who actually genuinely wanna hurt kids, right? So already we're comparing somebody talking to other people who have the same struggle, so that they can help each other cope with it, to somebody seeking out a group that actively harms people or promotes harming people in a manner that their particular struggle fixates on... different scenarios.

Saying what amounts to "I saw a hot kid, but I don't wanna act on that" is so hugely different from plotting with neo-nazis and spreading holocaust denial. The equivalent to those would be somebody advocating to make child molestation legal or spreading bullshit pro-contact talking points that child molestation is okay - again, I strongly disagree with those people, I argue against them, they're disgusting, but they're not the people that we're talking about here so the comparison falls apart.

Please, can we use comparisons that don't completely belittle anti-semitism? Can we use comparisons that don't act like giving in to a Hitler identity delusion and promoting the neo-nazi cause as a result is even remotely comparable to venting about a paraphilia that you're keeping under control? These are such different scenarios. And it's a complete non-point because I've never said that people aren't responsible for the things that they say (although, someone with a Hitler delusion that bad wouldn't have legal capacity so, legally speaking, no they wouldn't be responsible for what they said).

"We can accept that MAPs have little to no control over their attraction without accepting that their attraction is valid, reasonable or worth discussing except to demonise."

Sure, you can do whatever you want. I, on the other hand, think that it's not the most effective approach if you want to prevent crimes and to help people.

If you demonize the act of thinking that thought and the thought itself, rather than the content of the thought if made real, what do you hope to achieve other than causing unnecessary mental strain on a person that could negatively impact their coping? Do you feel the same way about people who ship certain ships and talk openly about it?

Valid and reasonable? Completely irrelevant. The thoughts are there, validity and reason didn't play a part in dictating whether or not those thoughts would come to be, it's a pointless way to judge them and it's unproductive - we're talking about how best to deal with the thoughts and how to prevent harm. That's like saying that my arthritis isn't okay, it's not reasonable... like, it doesn't matter, I've still got arthritis.

Not worth discussing? The people struggling with the thoughts and needing support, the people who's lives have been improved by that support, I'm pretty sure they'll beg to differ.

"If these MAPs were truly as saintly and suffering as you make them out to be they wouldn't be all cutesy and wink wink nudge nudge about discussing it, because they would understand that attraction to children is wrong regardless of how much they can help it."

"Saintly and suffering", what? I don't understand how you got that impression, I'm sorry that you did and all of that, but I also think that it's ridiculous. I talk about them like they're human beings with complex emotions - on account of the fact that they are.

Yeah, I understand that setting myself on fire right now, even the fact that I want to, would be pretty wrong... I've still been casually making jokes about it. I also make dead baby jokes. I make jokes about blowing up parliament. You can understand that something is terrible and still talk casually about it.

"MAPs need help, not a niche on Tumblr that defend their attraction and their "non-contact but still skeevy af" actions."

What do you think a support network is for? It's part of that help. The community and the people within work towards keeping each other non-offending and supporting each other's mental well-being. Just because you can cherrypick an asshole doesn't mean that they should just disassemble and throw away the entire community and the advantages it can bring - it just means that they need to work on having more open conversations about what the impact of certain behaviour and posts could be and how to mitigate that.

"the ones like the above are as harmful as the Nazis that have "thought experiments" on what the world would be like without black people"

I prefer when they have their thought experiments somewhere that I can butt in and correct them, rather than building themselves a little echo chamber.

But, since we're talking about anti-contacts here, you've actually taught me something... I didn't know that there were anti-nazi nazis who talked about hypotheticals and thoughts, while simultaneously advocating against any real world nazi regime or ethno-state, and arguing against discrimination based on race or religion. That's interesting.

#Mod Vaporeon #submission #long post

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