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eisforeidolon · 6 months

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I am not sure how long you have been in the SPN fandom (I have only been in it for 3 years) but I was wondering has the infighting about which J is actually the better one always been a thing? I sometimes see some fans really hating on them for what seems like very petty reasons and projecting all kinds of jealously, codependence, and envious behavior especially onto Jensen. I love Jared but the way some Jared fans act like Jensen has or had some creepy obsession with him makes me wonder if this is something that has always been around or manifested more after the prequel situation.

It's been around 11 years for me, being properly in the fandom. I binged the series just in time to catch the start of season 8 airing real-time, and came to tumblr when I realized fanfic was not going to scratch the itch of sharing speculation about what would happen next. So far as I'm aware, from personal observation and seeing people who've been around longer talking about the what the fandom was like? It's always been a thing to some extent, but the extent has varied a lot depending on when and what part of the fandom you're in.

The extreme Jensen stans - generally called Ackles Army (AAs) - have always been upfront and loud about hating Jared over anything and everything - almost literally to the point of insisting he's breathing wrong. They overlap a lot with hellers because of a generally shared desire to get Jared off SPN and away from Jensen, convinced he was in the way/holding Jensen back/throwing jealous tantrums to control Jensen and the show/whatthefuckever.

While some extreme Jared stans didn't bother to hide, a lot of them insisted they were totally fans of both prior to prequelgate and maybe some were - to an extent. For the most part they could blend in, because most of the time? Jensen and Jared were in pretty synchronous agreement - doing publicity together, agreeing the brother bond was the center of the show, not really doing a lot of other projects, etc. But over time, long before prequelgate, well it just always so happened that if either J got solo attention or there was some perceived difference? According to these supposed bibros, Jared was not capable of even considering making a bad decision ever, while nearly everything Jensen did alone was somehow embarrassing or suspect and supposedly reflected badly on him. They didn't necessarily want Jensen to go away, just know his place as the cheerleading subordinate. Of course now that Jensen and Jared are doing separate projects and attention for Jensen does not automatically mean attention to Jared, with the handy kickoff of prequelgate to claim extra totes legit justification over that misunderstanding they sorted out in a single phone call ... well, here we are.

By and large the AAs/hellers have always been more extreme - in terms of sheer quantity of assholes openly wishing not just failure but actual harm on Jared and sending death threats to him and other fans. But in terms of petty back and forth bullshit dragging the actors, these days they openly do a lot of the exact same nonsense: J is ugly! J is an alcoholic/druggie! J is a complete failure post-SPN! J is abusive to fave!J! J is obviously jealous of fave!J/trying to sabotage fave!J! J only did X because fave!J did Y so much better! Only fave!J was essential to the show, it was his character's story!

Both sides are constantly justifying themselves with the ol' OMG THEY STARTED IT! nonsense. Sure, the self-serving justifications differ just a little where the Jensen stans pretend to be amnesiac and blind to the really gross and reprehensible shit sent directly to Jared and basically everything the real Jensen says, while the Jared stans insist no one should object to anything they say because at least it's not wishing death on anybody (despite how much they lose their shit over even the petty nonsense when it's being directed at Jared). As if it's not obviously a constant back and forth of copycat stupid that has everything to do with each side trying to "prove" their personal superiority in being fans of The Better J by talking shit on the internet.

#askboxery #anonymous #anti actor stans

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myhumanweakness · 3 years

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I don’t want to be a huge asshole, but...

There are a lot of people trying to find a modicum of positivity in the finale. It’s not about this Destiel-Bibro war that’s happened over the years, it’s not about Cas, it’s not about any of the superficial drama. This finale was the weirdest mixture of OOC and in character writing I have ever seen.

Things that are in character:

The brothers put each other first. They are each other’s safe place and stability. Up until the very end. Sam respected Dean’s wishes, stayed with him in his last moments, and let him go gracefully. Sam even went on and had a full life so Dean’s sacrifices weren’t in vain.

For Dean, Heaven wasn’t perfect without Sam there. And he had this huge sense of relief and happiness when Sam arrived.

Jack deconstructed the walls of Heaven so that it was a vast place where everyone could be together. They weren’t living out their “best memories” anymore. They were creating new memories eternally with each other. And Bobby recognizing that Jack is like Dean’s son by saying, “That boy of yours...”

Cas helped build the Heaven that he always dreamed of. Cas always had such a high standard for Heaven, and it always fell short. He helped Jack build a home that was warm and comforting and beautiful and open and loving and true. Everything Cas stood for.

Bobby, the man Dean adopted as his father, was there to share a beer with him (just like Dean shared with his dad in his childhood). And Bobby was happy and confirmed that Dean is in a Heaven he deserves.

Sam mourning Dean’s death for the rest of his life, but also living his life to honor Dean. Classic Sam.

Dean using his last moments to tell Sam how much he loves him and how proud he is. Sam deserved to hear that because we all know Sam looked at Dean as a parental figure.

Things that are OOC:

Sam not marrying Eileen. The show created this HUGE story arc around Sam and Eileen and their real love and connection. And then they shoot this finale and couldn’t even get an actress that looked like Eileen to stand it the blurry background. Like, I don’t care what you say, it’s NOT open to interpretation. Sam did not end up with Eileen. All of you people who are Sam stans, who say you want your character to be happy and live a full life should be livid. Sam ending up with Eileen wouldn’t have canceled out the fact that Dean was/is his number one person. Dean gave his blessing for Eileen, and he loved her and welcomed her into their lives because he knew Sam loved her and had a genuine connection with her. Having them together would not have ruined the ending in any way. Sam still could have ended up with Dean on that bridge.

That woman with the blonde/light brown hair is NOT Eileen. They couldn’t even get an actress with dark brown hair to keep hope alive that they ended up together. Absolutely awful.

Dean just accepting Cas’ death and not even talking about it, other than to say, “Yeah I think about em’ too.” I don’t care if you don’t believe in Destiel or that the love was reciprocated. Dean EXCLUSIVELY said multiple times that Cas is a member of their family and a brother to the boys. He said the words, “YOU”RE MY BEST FRIEND.” I’m not saying Dean should have scarified himself to go pull Cas out of the Empty (because we had 40 minutes to wrap up 15 years). But the fact that Dean was like: I’m gonna eat some pie and just not acknowledge any feelings or thoughts and act like nothing ever happened is SO OOC. If your best friend died tragically, you’d have something to say about it or act like you had something to say about it. And that’s not to say I wanted Dean to be miserable and hurting. I’m happy he got a dog and found some normalcy. But they lost SO many people, and he’s just walking around cool as a cucumber? When every other season/episode where they lost someone important to Dean he was a mess. And I’m not just talking about Cas- we all obviously know how Dean behaved when Cas died/was missing/Lucifer was controlling him. But even when Jo and Ellen died. Even when Mary died. Even when Bobby died. Even when John died. Even when Crowley died. Even when Jack died, Dean was shown hurting. Suddenly everything is cool and normal there’s no pain or anything? The fuck? A brief moment of acknowledgement. That’s all it needed.

I will never forgive the writers for ending Dean’s story that way. A rusty nail impaling him (probably in his pulmonary arteries/aorta based on the angle) on some random hunt after he finally exhaled the episode before and said, “We’re finally free.” He sacrificed his ENTIRE childhood and life for his brother and the world and so many other people, and he didn't even get to enjoy being a human on the Earth and living a life for more than a week. What! Dean was always a character filled with tragedy, and yeah, maybe he did have to die. You can make that argument. But like that?! AND. AND! Sam held a funeral for Dean and DIDN’T INVITE ANYONE! What!!! No one was there to toast to Dean and share their memories and give him the send-off he deserved. Sam just burned his body alone. Never. That would have NEVER happened. Sam loved Dean SO much and looked up to him and thought the world of him. Dean was his big brother who was fearless and strong and the best hunter on this Earth (and probably every other planet), and he didn’t celebrate his life in the end?

Cas not showing up in Heaven is absolutely insane. INSANE. It doesn’t matter what you think of their relationship, the show has proven that Cas is important to Dean (even if you think Cas is way at the bottom of the list, he’s on it!). Dean’s ideal retirement/endgame was him, Sam, and Cas on a beach, drinking cocktails, with hula girls. That was the future Dean wanted for him and his family. And you’re telling me that Cas helped Jack build the best version of Heaven possible, and the minute Dean Winchester arrived Cas wasn’t there to greet him. Even just to say “Hello, Dean.” Even call Dean’s phone and say, “Welcome home.” Cas would have been the one greeting Dean in Heaven, with Bobby. Requited or not, it’s canon that Cas is in love with Dean. You don’t just ignore the opportunity to see the person you’re in love with. And... and! Even if Cas didn’t greet Dean in Heaven immediately, he would have appeared in the Impala during the drive. He would have met the brothers on the bridge to welcome them both home. Cas loved Sam too. He would have been there. The three boys together again. Team Free Will!

I love Cas, and I know a lot of Cas stans feel buried and betrayed and hurt over the show doing a “is he there or isn’t he?” thing. And that is completely valid. I can’t even express to you how sorry I am that so many of us in the fandom are hurting. But I know this show. And this show has always made it clear that it was/is always about two brothers. Fine. But Dean Winchester, the most caring and loving human in the entire universe, deserved better. I am so sick to my stomach that Dean’s whole life was him convinced that there was only one way for his story to end and it was him dying tragically. For years he never let himself even entertain the thought of living a life because he 1) didn’t think he deserved that or was worth it 2) it just wasn’t in the cards. We watched Dean grow so much, SO MUCH, that we finally saw him talking about the future and having hope for the future. And yeah, maybe he wouldn’t get the future he talked about with the retirement on the beach, but he would have lived long enough to experience life outside of just “playing whack-a-mole” and being God’s favorite story and puppet. Dean didn’t even get to enjoy his freedom and humanity. They took a character that they purposefully pushed through so many stages of character development to attain hope and faith and self-worth and promise, and killed him.

What the fuck!

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remythologise · 3 years

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Hello! I found your blog via you amazingly summarizing all that's going on with the spn drama. Due to my schedules, rl stuff, some of the arcs that didn't vibe with me, my availability to find a place to watch...the rollercoaster I was used to with this fandom was more me binging it in a weekend to going months to over a year without watching it. I still haven't watched the last season(but with a fandom this big it's pretty impossible not be spoiled so I more or less know what happened) BUT oh great one I ask of thee for more information if you have it...other than being busy and whatnot, I'm not really one to keep up with the actors as well. So could you also maybe do a summary of all the stans? I'im seeing terms I haven't seen before. Who is Kelios(sp?)? Hellions?? probably messed it up but like...I guess what are the name of each legion? Who do they have alliance towards? What was their desires? Que paso?!?!?!?

Hi there! 'Some of the arcs that didn't vibe with me' me emotionally quitting Supernatural in Season 7 after they killed Castiel 😂 Anyway I totally get it, I went through the same culture shock mid-last year when I got back into SPN and tried to find where fandom was at! There's really a LOT of lore and content after 15 years though so I'll just do the broad brushstrokes based on my impressions and personal stereotypes PLEASE remember this is oversimplifying groups and individuals to tendencies and I'm very biased! Also important that there are sub-factions within sub-factions - again, I'm simplifying here!

I've also linked to the 'Super-wiki' in terms of some definitions because the Super-wiki has pages for them where the Fandom-wiki does not. Great introduction actually - only in the Supernatural fandom. There are two Supernatural wikis. One, through curation and twitter activity, supports BiBro/Wincest factions and does not support Destiel users. One is more neutral or Destiel-friendly (I don't know that the Fandom wiki has a personality/social media presence per se). You cannot make this up. There is a factional war... within use of fandom wikis.

Destiel faction

People who primarily ship Dean/Cas, love Castiel and (often, although not always) Jack, and the 'found family' of Supernatural as well as the brothers, and like the post s3 seasons too. Hated 15.19 and 15.20 for killing Dean and ignoring the other characters/narrative arc of the show. Nicknamed 'Destihellers' by the Wincest faction as a derogatory term, 'reclaimed' and shortened as 'Hellers', a nickname they use affectionately to describe each other. See more info on nicknames here.

Sometimes also ship ‘Cockles’ (the ship between Misha Collins and Jensen Ackles) although generally speaking they're more respectful of the wives of the actors than J2 shippers, who are notoriously responsible for... a vast series of insane-fan misdemeanours. Historically most were also good at keeping RPF to themselves and not harassing celebrities with it directly, although recently, particularly with younger twitter fans, that has not been the case.

Sub-factions:

The ‘Desticule’ or ‘Destiel tumblr’ - general grouping of Destiel-shipping tumblr users around 20-30 years old, usually LGBT+, most who came back to the show post-15.18 after leaving it for various reasons including getting sick of the queerbaiting. Funniest bitches alive etc. and responsible for the best text posts you’ve ever seen. Can also start stupid discourse and in-group drama when they’re bored.

'POLOL' - People of Lots of Letters, a discord group (of tumblr and twitter users) that ran on the assumption Andrew Dabb was playing a hugely intricate game of 3D chess to do with gnostic symbolism among other things, and would make Destiel canon. Have since had their own factional sub-wars and fallen apart a bit. Some of their meta was and is good and interesting! Some of it was wildly off the mark. Now generally insist that Dabb/the writers were all pushing for Destiel canon and the network is entirely to blame.

Twitter fans (TikTok edition) - younger fans around 18 and younger who (FOR REASONS BEYOND ME) started watching the show around 2018-2020. Definition of 'stans'. Tend to be very loud and aggressive on twitter when Events Happen, which like. I do get, because they've grown up in a completely different media environment and this kind of Dinosaur Politicking around LGBT+ issues is beyond them. Fancam central. Anyway stream #CASTIEL for clear skin!

Twitter fans (AO3 edition) - older fans around 30+ who kept going with the show but either don't have a large tumblr presence or just prefer twitter. A lot of fic writers, GISH-ers, and BNFs in this group. Some of them are very cool and reasonable in their opinions, some of them act like the younger stans. Some of them too accepting of what happened wrt 15.19-20 in my opinion, because, in contrast to the younger twitter stans, they grew up expecting Destiel to NEVER be canon or respected. 'Can't believe we got this far' etc.

Multiship faction

Multishippers or shippers of things not as large as the two main behemoths . Sub-factions based on shipping, e.g. Megstiel and Sastiel. I don't think these groups are very large though, and seem to have very little influence in the Discourse.

Wincest faction

LARGE overlap with the 'BiBro' faction and their opinions, which I'll get to. Ship Sam and Dean romantically. Often pretend to be BiBros on places like twitter and reddit in order for outside groups to take their opinions more seriously. 'Wincesties' etc. are derogatory nicknames given by the Destiel faction.

Sub-factions:

Multiship fans - ship Sam and Dean but respect Castiel/the 'found family'. Politically overlap with the faction of multishippers, I think. I don't have a lot of insight on this group of people honestly, but I know they exist.

Bronlies - the typical BiBro and 'Wincest' shippers most people think of, twitter user 'Kelios' is one of the would-be ringleaders of this faction - typically tend to be older white midwestern women. Historically have been pretty nasty on twitter (leading to Robert Berens, writer who made Destiel canon, occasionally subtweeting Kelios). Also tend to ship 'J2' - and take it very seriously as a legitimate thing that is really real. This is called 'tinhatting'.

BiBro faction

People who think the show should JUST be about the brothers, love Supernatural s1-3 and everything after it should have been just like Supernatural s1-3. Hate Castiel, Jack, and the 'found family'. Largely loved 15.20. Go to literally any comments section on any Supernatural article and You Will Find Them complaining about how the show should just be about the Brothers. Tend to be older, straighter, and more conservative/Republican (and male) fans. (I am aware that the definition of 'BiBro' used to refer to people who just liked the brothers but there's no definitional difference now in the discourse.) The Wincest and BiBro faction are generally much more wealthy than the Destiel faction (they being younger and more diverse/queer/left-leaning in general) and would be the biggest revenue generators at conventions etc.

Sub-factions:

Reddit bros - literally anyone who visits r/supernatural. Well, that's not fair - there are people who post reasonable opinions on there, but it's pretty rare and they get downvoted a lot. Like to talk about 'toxic Destiel fans' 'ruining the show' and how Dean is a straight man who is straight and could never possibly be gay. Might even think the confession was platonic despite all evidence to the contrary. I'm Not Homophobic I Have Gay Friends, But No Gays on MY Show!

Old Guard - group of older fans who overlap strongly with the Wincest faction, but might not necessarily ship Wincest.

GA faction

'General Audience' - These are the group of audience members that aren't 'online' so to speak; most watch the show on TV as a Casual Viewing Experience (are therefore also sometimes referred to as 'casuals'. Mostly their opinions tend towards BiBros, but they have a vast range of baffling views thanks to being Not Online and usually Not caring about Supernatural that much or thinking that deeply about it.

Sub-factions:

People who simply watch Supernatural on TV and then don't think about it very much after that.

I said they weren't 'online' but that's not entirely true; I'd probably classify people on Supernatural Facebook Groups as GA, along with friends of friends who post statuses about how 15.20 was a neat finale that wrapped up the series.

Conclusion

Supernatural is famously the show that appeals to both Republicans and Democrats, literally All Orientations, so there's a WIDE range of factions. However, most warring online boils down to Destiel vs. Wincest/BiBro - the war that started in Season 4 and has simply never ended. In terms of the 'actors' and their stans, in general, Wincest/BiBro fans love Jared, like Jensen, and dislike Misha. Destiel fans love Misha, like Jensen, and dislike Jared. Of course as with everything, there are variations and this is just a generalisation. But that's the summary of it, from my perspective!

This didn't even get into Sam girls, Dean girls and Cas girls. God. Anyway.

Hope that answered your question, anon!

#for some reason read more does not work on my blog main page now? you'll have to click the permalink #season 17 time for a theme change tumblr has broken this one too much sigh #ask #anonymous #this might be the most controversial thing I've ever posted or I might escape with nobody noticing it. Only Two Outcomes #didn't mention any other factional ringleaders because well #I value my life etc.#unironically who will fund me writing the PhD on supernatural fandom etc. etc.#the graphs. the statistics. the sociological insights #kira for ts #supernatural spoilers #spn spoilers

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prince-of-elsinore · 3 years

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Some thoughts I just want to get out there on Dean Winchester's sexuality, John Winchester's parenting, and the politicization of fandom:

I've noticed that a few topics in fandom have become subject to "messaging culture," much in the way that real life issues become heavily politicized. Eventually certain statements end up being used and understood as shorthand for a much broader value system. In those cases, folks are listening to the "message" they hear with the words, rather than to the words themselves, which has the unfortunate effect of shutting down dialogue before it can begin, and dividing people into monolithic camps. Of course, to an extent messaging is inevitable and even useful, but an over-reliance on messaging kills variety and nuance of opinion. To illustrate with a very blatant example of messaging culture, take the phrases "Black Lives Matter" vs. "All Lives Matter." When we hear those phrases we don't hear the words themselves--we hear the message they carry and make assumptions about the speaker based on that. (Here is the article by philosopher Agnes Callard from which I got the phrase "messaging culture," and which uses the same example but goes into much more depth on the phenomenon.)

I noticed this in fandom when I realized that some things I was interested in discussing and exploring didn't line up with the way most fans talked about them, to the point that certain opinions would be practically taboo in certain circles. As it happens, these aren't even topics that I feel particularly strongly about, but they are things I wish I could discuss or make jokes about without feeling the need to put caveats and disclaimers in front of them.

One of the most obvious examples is Dean's sexuality. To generalize (please note this word! I am aware this is a generalization!), the assumption is that anyone who headcanons Dean as bi or even is interested in queer readings of him must ship Destiel. The reverse of this is that to be a true brothers fan, you must believe Dean is straight. I understand why the issue is so touchy, given the long history of this argument in fandom and the unfortunate fact that even Jensen has been dragged into it. I'm sympathetic to the urge to defend Dean's straightness, and I think in many contexts it's appropriate. But I find it frustrating that things have gotten to a point where any content putting the word "bi" or "straight" in proximity to Dean becomes loaded. It's almost impossible not to see an agenda.

For me personally, it's frustrating because while I believe Dean Winchester has probably never wanted to sleep with a man, I find his homosocial relationships fascinating and not without a tinge of the erotic. In terms of fanon, I like several ships involving him with other men. I think he might--just maybe--have had a crush on Dr. Sexy, not that he would ever admit it, maybe not even to himself. I also find categories like "bi" and "straight" limiting, and think sexuality tends to be much more elastic and nuanced in reality than the labels we like to give it. But the point is, sometimes I might like to make a joke about Dean being into guys, or to analyze his character with queer theory. This doesn't mean I think Jensen is homophobic, that I ship Destiel, or even that I headcanon Dean as "bi," precisely.

Another such topic is John's parenting. Here, the gross generalization is that those who are John-negative or believe he was abusive are Dean stans, usually of the Detiel-shipping, Sam-hating variety. Those who are John-positive are Bibros, Wincest shippers, and Sam stans, sometimes of the Dean-hating variety. I understand a bit less about how this fandom fault-line came about. Of course, abuse is always a sensitive topic, but this seems sensitive in a different way: posting any neutral or positive John content can be seen as an affront to Dean, or proof of shipping Wincest, and any content speculating about abuse might mean you're not a true bros fan, that you hate Sam, that you must ship Destiel.

Again, purely personally, I do not hate John Winchester. I also love Dean. I think John is a complex and flawed individual, and that the way he raised his sons messed up both of them, but especially Dean (because he internalized his father's lessons/values so thoroughly), pretty bad. I still find him sympathetic and interesting. I'm also interested, though, in discussions of the show's subtext in regards to abuse, including sexual abuse. I'm interested in fanon that portrays John as explicitly abusive. I'm interested in readings of Dean that see him as a survivor of abuse, both for the light they may shed on his canon character and for the fanon potential. I'm interested in open discussion about the way a father's failings and messy, imperfect love could damage his sons and shape the men they become. It doesn't mean I hate Dean or Sam (or John), and it certainly has nothing to do with how I feel about any ships.

This post is not a call-out aimed at anyone in particular. It's really not. It's just based on general observations and impressions from a lot of small moments. I also didn't write this in a defensive, victimized mindset. Like I said, I don't feel I really have a vested interest in how people view Dean's sexuality or John's parenting--they're just things I had some thoughts on and would like to be able to talk about with folks. But I didn't feel I could share those thoughts without a lot of contextualization and disclaimers, which is what led to this post. I don't have an agenda, except perhaps, if it's not too naive to hope, to create a little space for folks to share thoughts without fear of censure or assumptions being made about their other fandom opinions.

#spn fandom #spn fandom meta #spn meta #spn fandom wank #it's not really wank or at least it's not meant as such but jic #dean meta #john winchester meta #my meta #spn #abuse tw #csa tw

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found--family · 3 years

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@ Blue Heart Nonny in my inbox (yes, i can answer your ask without posting it. no worries 💙)

here are the cliff-notes for everyone else:

there ARE Bronly blogs that are unhappy with Dean's ending because it wasn't fulfilling/he didn't get happiness/was killed off/the narrative undid years worth of character growth

those same blogs as well as others think Sam's ending was lacklustre

okay. so because i don't interact with such blogs i wasn't aware of this, but after a quick inspection thanks to Nonny, i find that it's true.

I'm not surprised, exactly. most of the Bronly blogs I've come across over the years have been vocal about Dean as an individual, a character who deserves his own narrative journey separate from Sam as well as Cas (of course 99% of them were anti-Cas so ofc i skiddadled out of there). And Sam Stans wanted a happy ending (domestic or otherwise) for him, one that's full of sunshine and smiles and yes, Found Family (the members of which do change from blog to blog).

all ships and Cas-hate aside, it was reassuring to see these bloggers recognise the endgame narrative as lacking, regressive, depressing and OOC for both Sam and Dean.

they didn't like the ending.

*cue solidarity meme*

this is important to note because what makes this fandom so special is our love for these characters and the complexity of the characters themselves (as has been mentioned on a fair few reaction posts already). we all want them to be happy, but we also want their journey not to have been for naught, we want their individual endings and the narrative as a whole to make sense because we've been with them through all of their struggles to learn and grow and try to find some peace and their own sense of purpose and meaning.

what I'm trying to say, is that while I'm a Destiel shipper I am first and foremost a fan of the characters - Dean and Cas, and Sam and Jack and all members of the collective Found Family the boys have met and embraced along the way.

I've shared a LOT of anti-Bronly content over the past 24hrs, but i'm not just angry that the bros-only ending pushed Cas and Destiel out of the narrative, I'm angry because that ending also did a disservice to these beloved characters as individuals. it brought back the toxic codependency after 15 seasons of the brothers fighting to be their own people, to be in each other's lives but not have their happiness dependant solely on each other.

Dean didn't get to live his own life and he died laughably, pitifully. His Heaven wasn't even his own and he ended up right back where he started: on a roadtrip to nowhere, alone. And in the end (Heaven) Dean was denied being allowed to embrace the self-love he'd learned on his journey and discover a life of his own and happiness that he deserved, /before/ reuniting with Sam. Sam got a liftime, Dean deserved the same, especially considering Dean's the one who never really believed that he deserved such a thing (but was recently convinced he was worth saving, worth happiness, worthy of giving and receiving love - yes, thanks largely to Cas) and canon chose to hammer home that idea like the nail in Dean's back, like the blunt little instrument Dean thought he was (but isn't).

Sam's domestic montage was lacking substance and emotion and the overall vibe was wholly depressing, sending the message that he couldn't live a happy life without his brother when we know he has managed that/wanted that through the seasons. It was like he was just going through the motions for Dean's sake until they could be reunited by death.

Frankly, Sam's montage would've been a LOT more heart-warming if his Found Family was present, or at least if Eileen was his wife (we still don't know) and they shared smiles/kisses/dancing in the living room. Maybe the Found Family thing was Covid, but for Eileen i call bullshit on the account of Jenny's presence and the fact that Shoshannah is also one person, not a bridge-full. Worst case scenario they could've shot her scenes separate and blended them with body doubles etc. Hell, i would've accepted a video call presence as a last resort. It would've made for an ending I was emotionally connected to. Instead we got strangers, a swiss-cheese life (missing pieces), and a depressing oldman!Sam. I could've bought the oldman!Sam dying after a long full life - but the montage left me (and Sam) unsatisfied with that Life. I mean, 15 years worth of content took.. 15 years to go through and emotionally invest in, so you really have to bring your A game to condense 50-odd years into a minute or two - and they didn't. That was some C-minus bullshit.

And then there's the Heaven thing.

Sam pretty much shows up in Heaven right after Dean dies. I reiterate, Dean didn't get to live his own Life nor his own Afterlife. Sam had the chance at a Life, and Dean could've easily had his own Afterlife if the writers had allowed it: a montage of Dean fishing in Heaven, sharing drinks with Bobby, Miracle the dog showing up, Dean working or karaokeung in the Roadhouse (an improvement on the Rocky's bar fantasy) Dean experiencing all kinds of happy and domestic things - and it should've been with Found Family, but again if Covid is to blame there were ways to work around that with blurred background people and body doubles and voices off-screen.

Instead, Dean's individual storyline is erased as he's reduced to a footnote in Sam's afterlife. No happiness in life and no meaningful afterlife he can call his own. Sam's family will eventually join him in Heaven, but Dean is left lacking in friendships as well as a romantic partner. The real Sam's heart would've broken at that, and the real Dean would've been unhappy and would've sought out people and meaningful relationships (again, Found Family).

BTW: i saw mention that the lack of Found Family in Heaven is because they're not dead yet.. *cough* let's recap some dead loved ones who could've made an appearance shall we: Jo, Ash, Ellen, Rufus + Mary + John (all mentioned but none shown), Pamela, Kevin, Adam, OG!Charlie, Missouri.. hell, even Henry or Ketch or Frank.. i would've been overjoyed at seeing Cassie again, because we don't know who's dead or not. Krissy, Cesar, Jesse - they could've died, especially since in the time it took for Dean to take his little roadtrip, Sam lived 50-odd years on earth. So, if we're going by canon's timey-wimey rules they could've easily brought back any Found Family member they wanted.

but, again, we got random vamp Jenny.

simply put, Covid is not to blame and there were many simple tweaks that could've made the finally on some level. instead the characters and the audience are left devastated and wanting.

i know we don't see heart-to-heart on shipping matters, but even Destiel shippers and Bronlies can agree Sam and Dean didn't get the happy, satisfying endings their characters and 15 years worth of narrative deserved.

* note: Bronlies (not Bibros) are invited to share their thoughts on this post about Sam and Dean's individual endings, but please avoid negative Destiel talk, negative Cas talk, and any wincest talk.

#q and a #spn spoilers #spn 15x20 #dean deserved better #sam deserved better #thoughts #Bad Writing #meta #ooc writing #this is probably a bad idea.. *shrug* we shall see..

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go-diane-winchester · 5 years

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Are people not allowed to ship destiel?

Thank you for the very pertinent question. I, like most sensible slash fans, have absolutely no problem with any ship. I don't have issues with tinhatting. When it comes to shipping, I am very tolerant. As long as you don't hurt people, go ahead and have your fantasy. Destiel is not a problem. The militant shippers, or hellers, most definitely are. Some people I know, used to ship Destiel, before getting fed up and moving on. We have made a distinction between destiel shipper and destiheller before, until we were blue in the face, but we have to keep repeating this because hellers don't circulate the truth, just their headcanons. I even did posts about it, but the hellers don't want to acknowledge that. I have come across destiel shippers. They are nice people. They ship their ship and ask for nothing in return, because they acknowledge what slash fiction is and they make no demands of any kind. Hellers are a beast of a different breed, altogether. A heller is someone who wants to control fandom's thoughts. Nobody is allowed to think contrary to what a heller thinks. And if you do, then you deserve to kill yourself. I, myself, was recently told to put my head in an oven.

So what kind of person is a heller?

A heller cannot understand that subtexts is opinion-based, and that not everyone going to see what you see and interpret it the way you interpret it. For example, the Dr Sexy scene. Jensen, and most fans, interpreted the scene as Dean was fanboying over meeting his on screen idol. The hellers insist, even despite Jensen saying otherwise, that Dean was ''crushing'' on Dr Sexy. The Destiel camp is very headcanon and meta heavy. Instead of just writing stories, indulging in fanart etc, they are constantly writing headcanon and meta. Other hellers, just reading the headcanon and meta, just accept it with question. No debate is held over the analysis. Why is that? They don't question meta writers because then they will have to question their ship and they cant question their ship because they want Destiel to be canon. They can't have it any other way. If an individual uses Destiel and canon in the same conversation, immediately I can tell this is a heller. A normal shipper doesn't want to change the entire show to suit her kinks. And she recognizes that its a kink, a fetish and nothing more. Hellers don't do that. They pretend that they are crusading for LGBT representation when they ask for canon. And why do I have a problem with it? Its shouldn't be my business what hellers blindly believe or don't believe in the heller section of the fandom, should it? Unfortunately, it is. Its everyone's problem, because the hellers believe the meta writers and then they ask questions based on the meta at cons. They harass J2 over the meta. The Dr Sexy question is meta-based. So is the Cas-Collette parallel question. The Js will be put in an uncomfortable position based on how thinly veiled the question is because they will have to answer honestly. The Dr Sexy question was a thinly veiled question. They answered honestly and got bashed on Twitter for it. The parallel question flew right over Jensen's heads. Myths and archetypes are something Jared is fascinated by, so Jensen told Jared to answer the question. And Jared answered the question positively from a literary standpoint. I guarantee that if he had asked the fan to elaborate on the parallel, his answer would have been vastly different. They use that as proof that SPN is queer baiting them.

They cannot differentiate between SPN fandom and Destiel fandom. When a heller speaks about Destiel, especially when harassing SPN execs on SM, they speak for the rest of fandom. They say that ''the fans demand a spin-off'' and ''the fans deserve Destiel to be canon''. And if someone points out to them that not all the fans agree with that statement, they are called a ''fake fan''. If you don't care much for Cas, you are fake fan. If you don't like Misha, you are a fake fan. If you are not ''Destiel positive'' you are a homophobe. Hellers are notorious name callers. Their name calling reaches epic proportions when they have to deal with J2 and wincest shippers because these two ships are their primary competition. They seem to hate sastiel and mishalecki too, but no so much. They rationalize their ship shaming by saying that shipping Destiel is the moral high ground. Because ''wincest is incest'' even though many wincest fans have said they just like J2's onscreen avatars and chemistry, and that they don't condone incest. But acknowledging that is too difficult so instead of doing that, hellers go on repeat insisting that wincest fans are liars and perverts. Shipping J2 is also morally wrong because ''they are totally like brothers''. So hellers essentially want to police fandom and how it behaves and what it thinks.

The Destiel fandom, primarily, only likes Misha and Misha-related stuff. They insist that Misha is a lead, and an equal to Jensen and Jared. They attack anyone who says otherwise, including Jensen and Jared. Remember, the Nolacon joke that got blown out of proportion? The only ones who screamed about the joke on SM, where the hellers. They were taking revenge from Jensen and Jared for saying that Misha not a lead or ''lead support''. Two people approached me about Misha fans [and these may just be minions and Destiel shippers] who said that they were attacked for not liking Cas or Misha. One was attacked online. The other is a kid who is attacked by a heller at school. They can't seem to understand that you can't force someone to stan a celebrity or ship. Its a common sense thing, that has to be explained to a heller. They don't realize that people don't like to be told what to do and who to love. People like celebrities who are their ''type''. I don't like Misha. He is not my ''type'' either physically or personality wise. I never liked SPN because of him. I like SPN because of the brothers and the story. Forcing me to change my opinion is kind of drastic, don't you think? I am certain that most fans who have a blind hatred for Misha now, used to be neutral fans who didn't have a negative opinion about him previously. By forcing Misha on everyone, constantly screaming ''where's the angel?'' and insisting talk show hosts invite Misha too, since he's a ''lead'', they have irritated these fans to the point where now the fans scowl and the mere mention of Misha or Cas. The same can be said for Destiel. They pushed Destiel so much into everyone's face that fans who were amused by the whole shipping thing previously, no hate anything related to Destiel because they are sick of it. I have seen Destiel in the AKF tag. Hellers are also notorious over taggers. In fact, that is where the rift began. With the tagging.

They don't acknowledge that slash is opinion-based. Although this is an understudied area, I have a hypothesis. Shipping is based on love. If you love both the people in the pairing, you will write slash about them, because slash fiction is an expression of love, primarily. There are some kinky bits and pieces here and there, but they are a byproduct of the love that the writer may have. Some people cant slash Jared for some reason. One fan [not a shipper, this is just an example] said, her brother [or was it her cousin] looks exactly like Jared. She posted his picture, and if I hadn't read the caption, I would have thought that it was really Jared. So I can understand if she doesn't want to slash Jared with anyone. It would be weird for her because then she will have to write about him romantically. One fan said [and this was years ago] that Jensen looks identical to her uncle. She would never ship him or his character with anyone, because she would be repulsed. I feel Jensen is one of the most beautiful men on Earth. That is my opinion. My cousin watched the scene where Dean is crying over Sam's dead body. He wipes his tears and when his hands were in the frame, my cousin said ''he has ugly fingernails''. Did I get offended? No. That is her opinion. To her, his finger nails really are ugly. And yet she thinks he has a handsome face. I read a Sevin fic where the writer said, ''Jared has such hot knuckles''. She is gushing over an obscure body part, because that is probably what she likes. Hellers don't understand that. They want everyone to like the same people, for the same reasons, in the same manner. No diversion from that collective opinion is allowed. People's desires are not uniform. How they perceive beauty is also not uniform. I call Misha ugly, partly because I don't appreciate being told to put my head in an oven and partly because [in my eyes] his behavior made me become sexually put off by him. I used to slash him before. Believe me, Misha only started to look ugly to me, when I started to really not like him. For eight years he was nice looking. Now I cant stand him and he is the most hideous beast I have ever seen. That is not just my thinking. I am certain other anti-Misha fans feel the same way. They used to like him and find him attractive, until he just put them off. I am sure if Misha did a 360 and changed his ways, he might start to look nice to us once more. So technically Misha lost fans because of his own behavior.

Hellers think that J2 fans are as crazy as they are. They think bibros love J2 the same way that they love Misha. Blindly. In the years that I watched SPN, I remember falling in and out of love with both Jensen and Jared [and Sam and Dean for that matter] based on something that they had done that I had liked or didn't like. Sometimes where I was emotionally, also played a part how I felt about them, or any other human being for that matter. People's opinions over an individual will change due to various issues. Just recently Jensen said something I didn't approve of. Sometimes Jared puts his foot in his mouth. They are human so they will mess up. If they make one stupid mistake, I let it go only because messing up is not something that they consistently do, unlike Misha who doesn't acknowledge or learn from his mistakes. If they consistently do things to cause a rift in fandom, then there are other celebrities out there. I don't need them. I will move on. So I acknowledge, that just because I like someone, it doesn't mean that he is perfect and will never mess up. It also means that because I like someone, it is not necessary for other people to like him too. Even amongst bibros, we have minor disagreements J2 but we don't hate each other based of differences of opinions. We don't insist that our opinion is the right one. In the heller camp, meta writers think for everyone. They decide how people are going to perceive a scene, or a moment during a panel. In fact, the lower level hellers leaving the actual watching of the show to the meta writers. They skip episodes that don't include Cas. That is a lot of episodes they are missing, because Misha, up till this year, was only allocated a fixed number of episodes per season in his contract. The meta writers watch the episodes through their shipping goggles, looking for what they would consider subtext, and then they write essays based on the episode, and the possible subtext they have found, including flimsy things like shirt colors. The lower level hellers read it and become affronted that SPN is queer baiting them so blatantly. They do the same thing with panels. Instead of watching the generously shared panels on YouTube, for free, they follow a high level heller on social media who attends the con, and tweets something they perceive to be slashily scandalous. They especially look for something to get offended by, when Jared speaks. So the lower level hellers were not forming their own opinion but basing how they feel on someone else's opinion. They hate Jared because of reasons listed by someone else. If they were smart, they would think for themselves.

There is nothing wrong with any of the ships on SPN. Do I believe all ships are equal? Well on SPN, to a certain extent, sure. If someone doesn't like wincest, because they are victims of incest, that would make sense. Wincest fans who acknowledge the abuse are friends of mine. Those that are cruel about it, are not. Its as simple as that. I am a victim of pedophilia. So I hate weecest. I don't go near weecest fic. If weecest fans acknowledge this and leave me alone, there wont be any problems. If they try to push their kink onto me by trying to tell me how wrong my opinion is, then they will be sorry. But you cant call yourself a victim, by going where you are likely to find a trigger and them complaining that you are being triggered. Not only are you looking for trouble, but you are making abuse victims and their triggers look trivial. Because now they appear like Divas, whom everyone else has to bend over backwards to please. This allows me to segue into a similar topic. I have heard complaints from fans, looking up a general SPN fan fic, investing time to read it, only for their enthusiasm to come to a screeching halt because as the chapters progress, Dean comes out as bi and in love with Cas. Shouldn't the writer notify the reader that she or he is reading a destiel fanfic. Not only are they mistagging their Tumblr posts. They are mistagging fanfiction. Essentially they are duping people into reading their stories. What kind of indoctrination logic is this?

Hellers need to understand that Destiel is not the biggest ship on SPN. If they insist that it is, then they have to quantify that opinion with a number. They wont because the last time they did that, the number went up to 8000 and stalled. That makes them 1% of the fandom and they hate being reminded of it. They have done debunking essays with regards to the number, but then why not do the census again. Don't debunk with your words. Use actual data. Prove to ''all the haters'' that there are millions of you, voting with your remote and contributing to the ratings in the USA alone. We will never bring up the number again. Hellers need to also understand that slash is not the point of SPN. The show is not about love and kinks and soap opera nonsense. It is about the supernatural, hence the name. Insisting on making Destiel canon and destroying Jensen's reputation by calling him a bigot because he refuses to do so, is a nasty thing to do, because hellers are not the only ones watching SPN. Everyone is, and they like the show as it is. They don't want change. In fact, it will surprise you to know that wincest fans don't want wincest as a romance, to be canon. They don't demand anything accept better storylines. The only people doing the demanding are the hellers. It is time for dialogue to open between the destiel fans and the hellers, because the hellers are ruining not just the ship but the show as well.

I hope this answers the question. Thank you once again, for the ask.

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missjackil · 5 years

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Someone is arguing Dean is not dual protagonist along with Sam and you are saying its good stuff. WOW, way to be a Dean supporter. You all preach Bibros and both brother supporters, at end of day you are just a Sam stan.

Right away, I know a couple things about you. You dont know what a stan is, nor do you understand what protagonist/antagonist means, and you dont know me. Ill start this by telling you I never lie and say I dont favor Sam, because I do. However I love Dean too and I know he is equally important to the show as Sam is. Being a lead protagonist doesnt mean te other is less important in any sense. In fact, Im sure Jared and Jensen get paid the same, and maybe Jensen gets more when he directs. You are free to go through my entire blog and try to find where at anytime I ever throw shade on Dean, because I never do. So automatically, that makes me not a Sam stan, but Ill proudly say Im a stan for the brothers. Maybe a “Bronly” is a better term for me? I dont know, Im fine with either.

Now, I believe Sam and Dean both have equal importance to the show, I dont believe their roles are the same. Sam changes constantly, and Dean doesnt change much, This is not a bad or insulting thing for either. Sam and Dean are The Show, and like the show itself, Sam is the twists and turns and game changers, and Dean is the rock, what will never change about the show even if there are some adjustments made. The show will always be about 2 brothers who love the world and each other and will do anything to save both (Dean) but it moves and twists and blind sides us all the time too, and remains unpredictable (Sam).

From seasons 1-7 Sam was the main focus. Dean never really had a strong storyline of his own, even in S3 when it should have been focused more on trying to keep Dean out of Hell, it was more like a back burner story to chasing Bela around and MOTWs, but there was a writers strike so it probably wasnt intentional to not give Dean’s story more attention. But during 1-7 the story was mainly focused on Sam (protagonist) and Dean opposing whatever he was doing (antagonist) while both were still on the same side of wanting to do good (dual protagonists) are you following?

In S8, there was a shift. In the first half both Sam and Dean had seperate and equal storylines. They were both protag/antag to each other, while still being dual protags in the big picture. When we got to The Trials, the arc went back to being Sam’s yet, this time Dean was supporting him, so he wasnt being an antagonist, even if they argued a little sometimes. Then s9, the story was about Sam, being possessed by Gadreel, but the POV was from Dean. Very little was shown to us about what Gadreel was doing to Sam, other than he began getting very tired. It focused more on how worried Dean was that he made the wrong call and Gadreel would hurt Sam. Then we have the big bro fight, at which time theyre both being antagonistic, then the MOC which put Dean in the position of protagonist and Sam as antagonist (to each other) for a whole season and a half, all while they are both still dual protagonists in the big picture. Finally in S11, theyre not at odds with each other, theyre in full support of each other and completely dual protagonists, both in the big and little picture. This has carried on all the way till the last few episodes where Dean wanted to lock himself in a box, and Sam doesnt want him to. This makes Dean the protagonist, and Sam the antagonist... and yet theyre still dual good guys trying to do right by the world.

I think most of the problem is that y’all get defensive, as if saying the story has mainly opened up around Sam is an insult to Dean, and its not. Its just how the story is being told. Jensen isnt bitter about it, he chose to play Dean. Jared isnt a snob about it, he never puts Sam as more important than Dean. Neither would keep going without the other and they both love their roles, ther characters, and the show. So really, the problem only lies with the perception of a few viewers who think “different” means “hate” much like the problems of the world right now.

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incarnateirony · 6 years

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Diagnosing the problem with our show narrative

Alright, so here's a really, really touchy topic. I know our fandom is full of Sam/Dean/Cas stans, but I do implore you to break out of that mindset while reading this attempted breakdown of why there's a lot of dispute over various placements in the fandom in general, outside of individual microcosms of singular season/subarc issues people may have with a character presentation, versus overall systemic issues with character presence/trending/relevance/infighting about who's important or mishandled.

Let it be clear with a disclaimer that if at any point it sounds like I am putting "blame" on any particular character, that is not the point, and a request to put it in full context of the discussion before coming to a foregone conclusion. The same goes for any perceived slight to overall significance, as this ultimately comes down to general mishandlings and origins.

That said,

Let's start at the beginning, as we should. The show started from Sam's primary perspective, even if Dean brought the push/drive. They offset in directions of emotion versus action at any given point over the course of three seasons, standing on their own with the occasional insight. From the gate, Jared was first listed, first called, and MC with Dean as a strong co-star role. They were our Luke and Hans in the Star Wars layman talk of the Hero's Journey. Unfortunately, over time, this was not panning out on our ratings, we were verging on cancellation, and they started trying to expand even before Season 4.

In Season 3, the writer's strike made them truncate Bela's story, among others. The need for offsets for the characters was strong, trying to increase counterplay, rather than tiring the GA - outside of fandom bubbles of Sam!Girls and Dean!Girls or bibros standing the infallibility of their constant circle of depressive offset. It's easy to forget, fandom-side, that there's a GA - ESPECIALLY in the mid-2000s - that would never be engaged in the hard stanning of viewpoints. Until twitter and other mediums REALLY expanded to the general population, most talk was on livejournals, personally maintained website forums, and the like. And with a general audience to mind, and numbers slipping - and the Hero's Journey itself minded - they had to reach beyond.

First, I'm going to talk S4 beyond the touch of Castiel: The Hero's Journey turned into the Double Journey Narrative in season 4. The Temptation of the Woman manifest as Ruby, and the Lover started as Anna. This advanced the ability of the brothers to weave more complex personal storylines, both between each other and knitting in elements from abroad, while giving them strong legging in an increasingly more challenging television landscape minding the 2008-09 industry crisis (which I've talked a million times on this blog.)

Now to Castiel: His initial role was the Herald who brings message of the threat from the empire, and depending on the version or rendition, becomes the early threat of the empire itself. Anna held the Hero's Journey of the Lover/Goddess/Leia, the distressing but powerful damsel that rebels against the empire, even if occasionally in jeopardy. But when McNiven didn't work on set, they were already working on trading out longevity of characters, essentially spackling their opposing stories into each other. Anna became the herald/threat, Castiel took on the long term magical helper.

This formula still held strong through S4-5, even if a bit awkward.

Temptress-Hero-Rogue-Lover

Here, have a few chart explanations of the monomyth covered in the Hero's Journey. (some are slightly varied due to exactly where they seed in some free floating elements, so I'm including several versions.)

So let's cut to the chase. Sam's freedom to live was different from Dean's at initiation, but they both had it respectively, in their own ways:

Sam received the call to adventure and hook by way of Dean, after trying to refuse the call. The mentor and white spirit had several varied manifestations in early seasons, and we know their road of trials. Over time he found his dark nature, and atoned with John, despite his harrowing and wondering. The point of the reversal and abyss for Sam kicked off Dean's arc to turn it into a double journey narrative.

Dean made a bargain for the then-ultimate-reward (bring back Sam), crossed into new rules - fell into the abyss -

Sam continued on (beyond the screen) having Dean's return refused of him and running in the dark night of the soul, with attempted sacrifice demanded of him.

Boot Dean's loop - resurrection and incorporation with quick call to adventure, meeting supernatural aid and going through trials while dealing with inner struggles; we met this in rapid time as he encountered his Goddess; Sam's handling had already had most atonement with the father done, but Dean's arc had him dealing instead with his Mother. "Finding love in the underworld" is just something I'm going to leave to sit. But moving on, the harrowing, new rules, refusal of the return and rebirth, rescue from without, his black moment - we start catching up with Sam in the double narrative.

Through this, the temptation of the woman through Ruby became Sam's ordeals and black moment in preparation for the true showdown. In fact, the showdown being built is that of Lucifer/Michael Sam/Dean, with support in the sidelines of dark/light in Ruby/Castiel.

Now, this brief hyper-compressed breakdown of our story run in mind (and admittedly some gloss over to not turn into its own novella,) we have to understand this storytelling balance we had going on.

The temptation of the woman ran its course, both Sam and Dean faced sacrifice (Sam falling to the cage, Dean almost committing to Michael, and showdown); in the end, Sam resurrects while Dean goes back to incorporating to the world, but before we get there. Boom, there went Ruby, who had been a huge driving force of Sam's end of the journey.

Castiel, on the other hand, survived. The "brothers in arms" lived on through them. And that was the final manifestation of a raw five year plan that Kripke admitted was only a few pages long at conception, but still had a rough body draft, spare for originally intending a dark ending for both instead of incorporation. They were greenlit for more, went with incorporation/resurrection and there we were: season 6.

No Ruby. Cas is popular, pull him back out, reactivate the call to adventure. But it failed to follow the same circle due to the chaos that was S 6-7. I can cover for weeks all the general failures that were in these seasons, most blatantly manifest in season 7. But the simple fact is - we basically went 2 years without a true overhanging structure, just seat-of-our-pants storytelling.

Now, you may wonder why I'm going into all of this discussing problems with our narrative.

From late season 5 through season 7, Castiel - no matter how strained his role was - continued on as an offset connection to Dean, if less integrated. No replacement for Ruby manifest.

Season 8 hit, and Carver took a new threshold. As per my discussion "Regarding trivial arguing on leads," Carver changed up the formula by moving Castiel from Support Character to Secondary Lead (acquiring his own subarcs increasingly so, esp S9+), his own trials, and major structuring elements rather than strictly playing off of moments associated with the primary leads. But this was the beginning of a shift. At this point, not only does Sam no longer have his own support character in wing to continue to diversify his application in overhanging story arcs, but Dean's previous support character has taken on a respective story position as a secondary lead. As a result, Sam's ability to run powerful independent arcs has been greatly minimized. And, the more extreme Sam stans will hang me now, it essentially started drifting Sam back into the position of secondary lead rather than primary lead, especially by the time the Trials finished, which even then was highly limited to the perspective of Dean rather than broader application. Meantime, Castiel births into his own arcs, even human world adventures, growths, and insights, which have little-to-nothing to do with the Sam/Dean arcs beyond gearing him to rejoin with them - the literal quality of a secondary lead, and new to him in this era (unlike early application as a compliment/support without deep insight as to what was going on with him beyond when he was with Sam and Dean.) If you look at this chart, EVEN CASTIEL HAS HAD HIS OWN CYCLE OF THE HERO'S JOURNEY AS A MAIN CHARACTER NOW, which is why Edlund called him that.

Dean, on the other hand, not only had Sam AND Castiel as a strong offset, but continued being handed other support lines, such as Benny. And dark as it was, Mark of Cain was an independent story. Dean continued to pull ahead of the pack, while Castiel crawled forward, and Sam wasn't being gifted any new counterplay. Ruby gone for 2, 4, 6 years with no replacement. We can argue "Jared should be able to hold the screen all he wants!" But this isn't a show where you just stand there and Get Good Things For Standing There. He has been stripped of a LOT of his elements, partially due to fandom upsets in the interest of choking him off from anyone /but/ Dean. In result, as much as I am loathe to admit it, but it is just Real Talk: at current, and pretty much anywhere after S9, Sam has continuously diminished into a role of Secondary Lead rather than Primary Lead. And that sucks.

And though the extreme stans will SCREECH at me for saying that, the simple fact is: in the end, whether they realize it or not, they agree. The consistent cyclic upset about what focus Sam is/isn't getting is distinctly to do with this slide. Whether or not you want to admit that's what has happened, that is exactly what has happened, and clearly they AREN'T content with him Just Existing There And Occasionally Solutionizing (neither am I.) We are actually standing the same point. The extremists are just upset when I call a Spade a Spade, because they take it as an insult to Sam/Jared, and it’s NOT. It is literally addressing exactly where our problem is and why THEY even see a problem.

Then we hit the other side of the fence: Dean stans that aren't happy with Dean, mostly over his emotional handling or presentation. Few Dean stans argue about him not having /story/ presence, because that's kind of ridiculous, but in regards to his emotional handling, that's another thing entirely. Because this structure put Dean through the central wringer for S9-11 at least, and then slightly burden shared in 12 but still got the brunt of it at the end. As a result, Dean's stans take him as abused, mishandled, and there's really no win. Because he's pushed as a character to extremes, but when he acts in extremes, his own fans are then upset and feel he's being mishandled, acting too fiercely, or whatever we want to call it, while he's been literally bearing the story on his back for many, many seasons in a row and, by the time they started trying to share it off back to Sam - even without actual focus on Sam's independent arcs (still as a secondary lead in respective capacity, although S12 itself became hazy on leads in general with an UTTER FUSTERCLUCK of storytelling and how much timeshift even went Men of Letters side) - it was already too late and they just hammered it in with the final deathshot to Castiel.

So now, we're in season 13 with the following issues:

Dean is overworked, overtaxed, at wits end and rolling through waves of extremes after propping up story as a central totem for years

Sam needs more focus, but doesn't have the proper narrative symmetry to pull it off to the caliber he needs it as a primary lead, which leaves his fans forever upset about his application.

These upset fans then refuse to recognize the significance of an elevated other lead, Castiel (S8-9+) and Castiel fans are on the defensive always worried about Castiel's increasing application. These upset fans take offense and blameshift onto the character that continues to improve general engagement and diversification rather than looking for a manageable solution to extend it the other direction.

Most of this infighting gets us nowhere beyond just personally recognizing we ourselves are upset about One Specific Thing and not realizing that a lot of this has one element that traces back 8~ seasons:

Sam needs counterplay.

In the end, everyone feels like they're getting boned. Sam fans feel he isn't getting enough story, but Dean fans feel like Sam's getting all the emotional/social, even if Sam's social isn't the kind to feed into story, leaving both unattended. Cas fans are lured with the position of a secondary lead, but aren't gifted full screen time, and Sam fans (SOME, not all) direct Sam's slide to the upgrade of this. Dean fans tend to be more inclusive (again not all) of Cas because he IS one of the social/emotional engagements being given to help the character, whether romantic or otherwise. In the end, we get the extreme wing of Sam fans sniping at the defensive wing of Cas fans in a blameshift that is NO ONE IN THE FANDOM'S FAULT, over a problem that's very real, but not actually sourced from Another Character Existing, but more the Lack Of Another. Giving Sam a primary engagement character can give him story expansion that pulls excessive load from Dean and opens the engagement opportunities and social function, much like we saw out of Dean between getting Cas back and realizing Mary was alive - the relief allowed better handling of Dean's social front, but this was temporary, and again, we fall to stressed characters, but no expansion for Sam. This is an independent problem from Cas having less screen time, which most of his fandom just recognizes is A Thing and Will Always Be A Thing, but are left on the defensive from other fans that feel the character is somehow to blame while simultaneously trying to undermine significance, which is just pretty absurd; but when you're standing favorites, sometimes we get tunnelvision. This turns into misdirected frustration. Sam lacks story, Dean lacks social/emotive, Cas lacks screen time. Get frustrated at everyone, but nobody listen across the lanes... when we have one easy solution: Give Sam more counterplay.

That's why I was so initially happy about Jack, even if it seemed forced/rushed. Sam>Dean>Cas>Jack>Sam>Dean>Cas>Jack, and while Sam took on mentoring and reflecting on his own history, they ended up pulling that actual counterplay away from us. I can only hope in the end they pass that pillar back to Sam to make him be able to take charge of this end of the storyline, attach to Jack in counterplay AND see it through to finalizing the death of Lucifer, but I can't bank on that.

There's really no One Showrunner responsible for the lack of Sam's counterplay. Gamble didn't fix it. Carver didn't fix it. Dabb didn't fix it. The fandom sure as hell didn't help with insisting on only Sam and Dean relying on each other, which just can't reasonably be manifest and just pitfalls us into reverse and crashes.

I literally feel like 99% of hurt feelings, resentment, issues with character placement, issues with character exhaustion, would LITERALLY be a nonissue if we had fixed this for Sam many moons ago. We'd have an entirely different dynamic now and TBF, most of the plot arcs we remember between S6->now would probably be obsolete and totally different, but this overstressed fandom wouldn't be arguing the same circle jerks about the same broken things.

And this is just incredibly frustrating because the question now is: is it too late? We're talking about 1-2+ more seasons now. Can we pan this out? Can we give him something? Can we fix this without people cacking themselves?

But literally... there. There's my diagnosis of MOST problems in our structure all spun off of one advent: Ruby Died in S5 And Was Never Replaced.

God, I sound like a wife stan now. I neither particularly love, nor do I dislike, Gen. Even if a similar role was given to someone else, that would have been okay. But we've never gotten that.

We just... need to fix narrative symmetry because as it stands, we basically have Dean as the extensively overstrained lead and Sam and Cas both as secondary leads, whereas with the right offset of SIMPLE COUNTERPLAY Sam could resolidify his story pillaring and be up there with Dean again instead of petty circlejerk arguments to just offset them and the fountain of "hey guys so get this" which is kind of frustrating.

I'm going to get hate from other Sam stans for saying this, because hOW daARE but in the end, it's literally about how this needs to be fixed FOR Sam (and everybody else) instead of just being on the constant defensive of "HOW DARE SOMEONE ELSE GET POPULAR! AWAY WITH THEE!" - I prefer to diagnose where the problem is and FIX it.

So that's my take.

#Supernatural #SPN #meta #mine #sam winchester #my meta

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orionsangel86 · 6 years

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1) Hey Saz, this is the person from Tink's long-ass 5-parter ask. This is going to be even longer. I'm on anon because of shyness above all things but I am willing to message you off anon if you want me to do so! I saw what you wrote about that ask and I agree.... to the most point. All the 'characteristics' of Destiel that differenciate it from other ships that you listed were actually applicable to some the ships I was talking about, especially Johnlock. -->

--> 2)The other ships, yes, you may be right, but for Johnlock I felt even more wronged intellectually when it crashed to the ground than I think I'll feel if the same thing happens to Destiel. I'm going to sound like a Johnlock shipping troll, but I'm not, I ran away from the mess of a fandom it became post-season 4. So bear with me. I really can't explain what my experience was at the time if you aren't familiar with tjlc and what the pre-season 4 sherlock fandom was like. -->

-->3)But let me assure you that it was extremely alike the spn/destiel fandom right now. I want to point out the similarities of the fandom and the ship but that would basically mean me explaining why Johnlock should have been canon, and I don't think you are here for that. So let me just point out a few things. By the end of the honest-to-god fanfic-y 3rd season, the GA were taking notice of it as well, to the point where, yes, the show is being called the worst queerbait ever even to this day.

--> 4)It frankly deserves it. And it was 2017.... we thought it was due fucking time. Guess it wasn't. When looking ay bibro blogs I can't help but be reminded of Johnlock antis. At least when that was a thing, you know, because you can't be an anti of something when it turns out you were right. We made fun of them, because how the fuck can you see jealousy at weddings, literally killing for the other the day they meet, -->

--> 5) having something secret to say that they can't bring themselves to say even after the other's death, being broken over the other's death TWO YEARS LATER AND ON THE DAY YOU FUCKING PROPOSE TO YOUR GF, prefering the other over your string of girlfriends, counting the texts a woman sent the other, COMING BACK TO LIFE AFTER LITERALLY FLATLINING BECAUSE THE OTHER IS IN DANGER, and, you know, constantly making both of them have shitty relationships and be unsatisfied romantically.... -->

.... and read it all as platonic? The show literally falls apart if you take away Johnlock... sounds familiar. You know, one of the writers for Sherlock is gay. So I believed in him, after all gay writers won't queerbait, how could they? (turns out they could.)......But I digress. I won't blame you if you just glossed over what I ranted above. Actually some of the reasons I'm still holding out hope for Destiel is 1) How atrocious the last season of Sherlock was, worst than Supernatral at its worst. 2) The sense that everything is coming full circle in this season(which we didn't get, btw, in even the last season of Sherlock). 3) Misha fucking Collins. And you know, although i heatedly ranted above in response to your response, I did it only because I wanted to justify what I spent near three years on. I didn't want to leave you thinking that a ship like this didn't exist before, because in my opinion, it did. So sorry. I was being spiteful.About the 'Greatest Love Stoty Ever Told', which was in fact the big fandom tagline for Johnlock as well....... I think I'll wait and see. If it is endgame, then I agree that it really is the greatest love story ever told. And I also agree that the show seems to be going that way

Hi Nonny,

So this is all in relation to this post and I think that the easiest way to answer this is to say to anyone still doubting, including nonny, to just read the various replies and reblogs on that post, because the answers are perfect.

Also nonny I know we have spoken in private already and you said that you were feeling better after reading the responses on that post as well so I won’t go into too much depth here, but I still wanted to post your asks in case there are still people out there feeling the way you do.

This is going to be my opinion on the matter, which, of course, is just that. There are many many people out there who were greatly upset by Sherlock and I feel for you all. Its not fair what happened and what that show put you through. Your feelings and your views on the matter are 100% valid and real and nothing that I say here is trying to contradict that. You saw a love story between those characters. That interpretation, like any interpretation of a text, is real and never let anyone say you were wrong. Johnlock still exists within the text of that show, just because it didn’t end with a kiss or a love confession doesn’t mean that it isn’t a valid reading.

I started watching Sherlock before I ever got into Supernatural. When it came out in 2010 I LOVED it. My film student lizard brain picked up on the Johnlock subtext pretty much straight away and aside from some very brief thoughts of “ooh that would be a different spin on it” I didn’t pay much more attention. I continued to watch Sherlock second season in 2012 and again I noticed the subtext, but at this point recognised that it was all done for humorous purposes. I never thought they would go there. I didn’t “ship” it because I didn’t even know what “shipping” was at the time let alone thought John and Sherlock were more than friends who happen to get mistaken for a couple. That was the gag. It was what made my very typically straight male young brother giggle like an idiot because apparently being mistaken for gay was funny. (It’s not. I hate those jokes. They don’t work outside a Carry On film and I don’t even like Carry On films).

When season 3 came out in Jan 2014 I side eyed the series because I had had enough of the gay jokes. I thought it was getting weird and could see that there was a beautiful bond between the characters that imo was being twisted for cheap laughs. I pondered on whether this Sherlock was in fact in the closet, Were they trying to tell us that he was secretly gay? I didn’t get it because it was never clear enough to me that this was the case and yet they continued to play around with the concept whilst the character of John is off with his fiance. My brother continued to find the whole thing hilarious. It was never taken seriously. My musings on Sherlocks sexuality were pushed aside because it seemed clear to me that the writers were not taking it seriously.

Then over the summer of 2014 I binge watched 9 seasons of SPN. I struggled with seasons 1 and 2, made it through 3, watched 4 and fell in love with an Angel of the Lord. It took me 10 episodes to figure out Cas was gay. It took me a further 2 seasons of umming and ahhing in my own head to conclude that yes, Dean was definitely Bisexual. It took until 6x20 to realise that this was legit something in the text and not my imagination. It took until season 8 for me to believe 100% that they were going there. (I wavered a bit on that belief in seasons 9 and 10 but season 11 pulled me back and I haven’t looked back since.)

In the early seasons, 4, 5 and 6, I recognised the patterns used between Dean and Cas were the same used in Sherlock. I re-watched Sherlock at some point in 2015 and remember thinking damn yeah they really were shoving the subtext in our faces a bit. But I still didn’t ship it, even though I was 100% shipping destiel at that point. I again pondered Sherlock’s sexuality, had a brief thought of “I’d like to see that take on the story” but again discarded any thought that it would actually be textual in a show that imo seemed adamant in keeping it all about the humour. If they weren’t going to take this characters sexuality seriously, then the story was never going to seriously be explored.

See if Destiel had always remained the way it was in seasons 4, 5 and 6, then I wouldn’t have any belief that it was going canon. I would probably still ship it (the sexual tension in season 4 was insane) but the idea that it would go canon would have always been a pipe dream. So many shows use the queer subtext as a source of humour. So many shows tease their characters as queer and use homoeroticism for titillation. It delights my idiot brother to no end. I hate it. I think it desperately needs to stop. I have never ever watched an episode of Sherlock and thought that it was doing anything other than just that. (I didn’t particularly like the 4th season though because nothing made any bloody sense and I think they kind of butchered the characterisations - I did say this would all be my opinion though so please don’t take offence).

You say that the show falls apart if you take away the romantic love story and make it platonic. I guess if I was to watch it again I could try to consider that reading, but my own experience watching seasons 1-3 is certainly not from a romantic view point and it all made sense to me. Season 4 didn’t make sense at all, and by the time that was on I was deep in destiel fandom and frequently writing meta, so I DID see the romantic reading in the text and yet still didn’t understand the story. (Again, I stress this is my opinion and is in no way trying to invalidate your own). However, with Destiel, the last three and a bit seasons narratively don’t work without it. I have tried to watch them and ignore every romantic moment, or hint at a romantic love between them, and in doing so, it confuses the fucking plot. I need to sit down and catalogue all the ways seasons 10 to 13 don’t work without destiel to evidence this but it would be a pretty epic job because there are ALOT.

I understand that you feel that Johnlock and Destiel are similar ships, but my opinion is that they drastically diverted course from each other when SPN went into its eighth season. Since then, there has been nothing quite like destiel in terms of build up and story structure - unless you start comparing it to the straight ships.

Where we are right now, destiel is deeply ingrained into the narrative of the show, and it is never used as a gag. It is never poked fun of in a way that reduces Dean and Cas’s relationship. Something that I believe Sherlock did right up until its last episode. I also 100% believe that the SPN creators and cast have a much greater respect and love for their fans than the Sherlock writers and cast ever did. (I’m not much of a fan of Bendydick Cucumberpatch and I have never been comfortable with Steve Moffat... dunno why the guy just gives me the creeps (then again so does Bob Singer)). They have been so positive towards Destiel recently that I am constantly stunned whenever new media or PR comes out. I am also of the belief that someone as wonderful as Misha Collins who is a champion for the LGBT community and cares deeply about making the world a better place would never ever involve himself in something that if it didn’t happen, would be considered the biggest queerbait in TV history. Breaking the hearts and severely angering millions of fans all over the world. Misha is a very smart man. He knows exactly how much this means to us and what it will do to us if it doesn’t happen. He doesn’t exactly look worried though. He doesn’t ever look like he is guilty over encouraging this ship? He looks like a fucker who knows whats up and can’t wait til we finally get to be in on the joke so he can tweet about it 24/7.

If destiel doesn’t happen, then Misha, of all people.... well... I’d have to rethink my entire opinion of him... the idea is so unfathomable for me, so impossible, it hurts my head to even consider. Did you ever feel this way about BC or Martin Freeman?

I just can’t believe that the people behind SPN would do that to us, but the people behind Sherlock? Well it didn’t exactly surprise me when it didn’t go canon. The BBC isn’t exactly known for being progressive. It’s known for playing it safe. If Sherlock was on Channel 4 I reckon they would have gone there. The Channel 4 execs probably would have encouraged it from the start. They would have considered it ‘edgy’.

I know that the CW isn’t exactly the most progressive network either, but its a young network, with a younger demo compared to the grumpy old pensioners who sit and watch BBC every night and complain that their tax payer money shouldn’t be going towards anything other than gardening shows and Eastenders. Soooo I think that has something to do with it too. The CW has a greater chance of pulling something like this off.

I’m so so sorry that Sherlock burned you. But don’t give up hope on destiel just yet, the factors are all currently in our favour. No two ships are alike, and in my opinion, Destiel is the motherfucking Symphony of the Seas compared to all others. It’s bigger, better, and hopefully, due for launch in Spring 2018.

#yeah i'm still on a cruise buzz #im sorry if i havent explained this well #but this is purely my opinion #destiel #johnlock #personal opinions #ask #anon #Anonymous

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grand-illusion-2k · 6 years

Text

The Supernatural Fandom Catastrophe

This thread is about what I saw as different arguments in the fandom from various sides.

First of all let's clarify a huge misconception. There is a pragmatic ship named Wincest in this fandom that exists from the very beginning of the show. And there is this term named "bibro" given as a sarcastic tag to the brothers fans by some shippers. WE, yes that includes me, took the tag as a compliment. A few of us are wincest shippers but, WE ALL ARE BIBROS. Who love both the brothers equally. Some of us are Deangirls and some of us are Samgirls based on a little bias towards one. But mostly we do root for both of them and do believe that Supernatural is all about the journey of two brothers. Like Kripke said, "It's the epic lovestory of Sam and Dean." It's the story of two brothers, who are different but compliment each other, who has evolved with all their learning, realisation, sacrifice, fight against the world together, fight against their inner demons, hitting the rock bottom yet fight back the way through it. The show itself has identified the one force behind all their redemption. It's their love, their bond with each other. "There aint no me, if there ain't no you." They are each others anchor and driving force. They are each others rock and allowance of flexibility. The relationship between Sam and Dean is a classic example of a multidimensional verse of any relationship between feminine and masculine. This is the relationship that put balance in the show at its center. That's what #MySupernatural is.

I have seen arguments that says "Supernatural has stopped being about brothers long time ago" and "It's not about two brothers, it's about family." bcz off course "Family don't end with blood".

Let me remind you, the extended family you are talking about, that includes Castiel, Bobby, Jo and Ellen, Jody, Donna, Garth, Charlie, Kevin, Jack, even Crowley, every super vibrant unique character that has been introduced time to time in the show. Not one single fan favorite. They all are part of a big Supernatural universal family THAT REVOLVES AROUND SAM AND DEAN WINCHESTER. "Family don't end with blood" doesn't make everyone the focus of the show. That would be ridiculous. This is not a soap opera. This is not even a ensemble cast. This is the family of Sam and Dean BOTH. NOT OF ONE BROTHER.

The argument leads to one prime factor named Misha Collins everywhere apparently. As a counter argument to someone on twitter (not me) another fan said that calling Castiel not the lead is disrespectful towards him and his hard work. Believe me, me and many of my fellow bibros have huge respect for Misha's hard work, his commitment towards society. No-one can climb that ladder from nothing to where he is now without talent and hard work. But that doesn't make Supernatural about Castiel! It's an absurd thought! It's a delirious mix of reality and fantasy! Misha is the actor who plays Castiel, he is not a part of fantasyland. And we have every right to say "Castiel is not the lead. and he is not indispensable." Just like none of the other characters are. One actor's popularity affecting a show mythology is the worst thing that can happen to any TV show even when his character can't offer any new flavour to it. If Castiel is gone from the show, Misha will still exist with all of his goodness and acting skills and his huge fanbase, which is indeed a spectacular achievement for any TV star. If his fans think otherwise, I must say you are seriously doubting the capabilities of your overlord.

I do expect the show to concentrate on its centre. Both the brothers. Not only Dean, like the its doing for at least 4-5 seasons now. Canon Supernatural used to play with both the brothers virtues, their complexity, under a background of hunting monsters. It used to represent a labyrinth of wonderful intricacy of human relationship, irrespective of gender. The Supernatural we have for last few seasons is too linear, occasionally derailed. No one is asking them to give a 40 mins hugging and crying melodrama of two brothers. What we are asking for is giving the characters right and just respect what they deserve. I believe it's a fair demand to the showmakers.

#wincest #bibro #j2 #supernatural #spn #MySupernatual #j2family #sam winchester #dean winchester

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