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sanjiafsincedayone · 2 years

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SaNa is enhanced by Toei? Filler vs manga and a shipping narrative + SaNa in new arcs and Nami's feelings

Sorry for the long title, but I decided to answer two asks in one post since they are in the same ask... And I also wanted the topics to be clear. Anyways, let's get to it because this will be a rather long one. :)

Hi @trompas-kun :) Thank you so much for liking my blog and my "Why SaNa over other ships" post. I apologize for it taking me so long to answer, but I kind of wrote more than I planned, and then I got sick for 3 weeks. I’m so sorry. T-T I hope it will be worth the wait.

I also want to say thank you for your questions! I find them very interesting, though I first hesitated to answer the first one due to the SaNa vs Lu/Na nature of it. But considering I still get random hate from Lu/Na shippers despite being fairly civil I suppose it doesn’t matter what I do. Besides, this is my view on the whole thing and I think it’s important to maybe add a counter to it since this concept of Toei being pro or anti various ships seem to have spread more and more the last couple of years, basically all of it coming from the Lu/Na shippers. Sadly the Sa/Na fandom doesn’t have as strong a voice as the Lu/Na one so this might go unnoticed to most, but I hope this view of Toei having their own secret agendas can die down at least a little as time passes.

Regarding Toei adding or changing things, they do it all the time to all kinds of moments. I personally think that the “Toei enhances Sana but downplays Lu/Na” is an exaggerated discourse that has spread because the Lu/Na shippers read the same analysis and spread some examples and trust it blindly instead of actually watching the anime and reading the manga with unbiased eyes. Not to mention when you have a bias you tend to notice “negative things” or things that go against your belief more. So because of this negativity bias and it being spread and talked about it has become “accepted” in the Lu/Na fandom that SaNa being pushed by Toei (at the expense of Lu/Na) is how it is. And because the Lu/Na fandom is loud and big it spreads even outside of their echo chamber to some degree, but from what I have seen this is mostly something that Lu/Na shippers claim and talk about and not the general fandom. So to begin with I wouldn’t say it’s “people saying” this, but rather fans that are Lu/Na shippers or anti Sa/Na.

I think it’s very convenient how the Lu/Na shippers ignore when the Toei makes things that highlight Nami and Luffy’s bond but say they favor Sa/Na when the truth is that Toei adds a lot in all kinds of moments, to fill out and make the anime longer than the manga. We for example have the whole Nebulandia thing which they praised to no end when it came out.

Not to mention in the WCI arc (around when this whole discorse started to spread) where they added a full moment of Nami going to Luffy and crying first after his fight with Sanji, though in the manga she goes directly to Sanji and has no interaction with Luffy until he wakes up again.

But I suppose Toei’s added moments are only “good” when it benefits them. For example how they love Nami wearing Luffy’s hat in Skypiea despite it being filler. She carries it in the manga, but she doesn’t wear it. It’s a small change, but one could call it “pandering” since Lu/Na shippers love to bring up Nami wearing his hat.

I could say in the same arc Sa/Na is “downplayed” by Toei making Sanji give flowers to both Nami and Robin when he only is shown wanting to give one to Nami in the manga. Of course over such a long show you can find various examples both for or against most ships being favored or “downplayed”. I do think these small changes can in some cases change an anime only watcher’s view, but most of the time it’s not really any huge changes that are being made.

They also forget that many of the “negative” Sa/Na moments are enhanced in the anime for gag purposes, something that makes many see Sa/Na in a worse way than they are portrayed in the manga. (Actually gags in general seems to get kind of overused in the anime.) For example showing Nami having to physically stop Sanji at times.

Sometimes Toei adds things that, though small, might change how the watchers view the characters but in no way do I think they are doing this to push one particular ship over another. I think this view that Toei pushes SaNa has more to do with recency bias and negativity bias in the shippers that don't like SaNa. They focus on only what they consider bad for their own ship, especially after having this theory being presented to them, and make it into a bigger thing that it likely is. Then they more easily remember these examples rather than things that in contrast might be “bad” for Sa/Na as a ship.

I’ve spoken about Sa/Na and fillers before in Hidden SaNami - Manga and filler, and I am not going to lie and say we don’t get really good fillers at times. But I am also of the belief that what Toei does is add things mostly based on what they think fits. And it just so happens that Sanji is very much specifically attached to Nami and their dynamic works well both for gags and in some cases even “romantic looking scenarios” when there is real drama going on. The writers at Toei see that and so they fill out scenes that already exist or create new ones that are in their opinion in character for the strawhats. For example, they know Sanji is a heart-eyed pervert, and so they added more moments for him with the mermaids in Fishman Island as an example. During WCI he had a romance focused storyline and thus they also added moments between Sanji and Purin that were not in the manga.

Sanji saving her from falling and San/Pu holding hands is one example of something that never happened, which to me clearly shows it’s more about adding what they think they can in regards to the characters and the current story, rather than having some secret agenda for certain ships.

Another San/Pu example is this tiny panel where Sanji is carrying her being zoomed in and changed to a bridial carry. It happens to many ships and moments so the "Toei loves SaNa" simply isn't true in my opinion.

Pandering to ships happens in most anime, and even Sanji x Zoro has gotten some rather obviously shippy moments. But the Lu/Na shippers don’t focus on or care about these other things, because Sa/Na (and to some extent Lu/Han) is their main target.

What I think Lu/Na fans might have a hard time accepting is that Luffy and Nami don't have a relationship where you can add shippy types of moments as easily. Not that it hasn’t happened, just look at the Nebulandia special again. But Luffy in particular is simply ill-fitted for shippy moments. For Hancock they added a “shippy scene” with Luffy but that was of course a dream and a gag, because it would be weird to see Luffy act like that towards anyone. The whole joke is that it’s out of character for Luffy.

Toei saw a chance to be funny and took it. Similarly we have seen Sanji “dream” of having a child with Nami in filler, which is also more in line with Sanji but would be really weird to see coming from Nami.

From what I recall this whole idea of Toei being pro Sa/Na was born in the Lu/Na fandom after the Zou scene with Nami running after Sanji. Then they just looked for older moments to add to their already decided hypothesis that Toei is biased (while still being happy about whatever added Lu/Na moment Toei has made and saying things like “they got it right this time”).

Granted that scene between SaNa in Zou is very dramatic and even slightly romantic looking, but Nami during all of Zou was very much highlighted as the most worried about Sanji in the manga. Thus Toei likely took the chance to add this scene. Likewise Nami was hurt by Sanji in WCI and thus they added the corridor walk scene (which I’ve seen anti Sa/Na people use as an example of Nami hating Sanji by the way). It’s extra drama added based on similar previous moments and the feelings they expressed in the manga.

There is actually a particular post from a Lu/Na shipper that I suspect made this viewpoint more widespread through their community, and in that post they even use Sa/Na examples that aren’t correct. For example, they claim that Nami’s reaction in the moment in Skypiea when Sanji saves Nami and Usopp is exaggerated in the anime. (And that Toei stole/copied the moment from a Lu/Na scene). Let me just show you a piece of that post here.

But, it isn’t really the way this post describes it. They excluded some manga panels in their “analysis” post, making the change seem more dramatic than it was.

Maybe they read this very incorrect old translation and trusted it? (Personally I don’t understand how this translation could happen to begin with.)

I don’t know, but Nami is saying exactly the same thing she did in the anime, asking why Usopp is accelerating and mentioning Sanji before Usopp interrupt her. The scene is longer than the small panel, but that is literally the purpose of making an anime based of a manga. But the dialogue is the same in the manga and the anime, and thus the whole point of the anime changing this "move or be toasted" moment to be more pro SaNa is simply false.

I remember seeing this post when it was new, and admittedly I have not checked all comparisons and I am sure some are legit changes/filler additions, but the Skypiea moment in particular made me annoyed because I know they described it incorrectly and it’s a moment from the manga that I really like, where Nami is showing a lot of concern for Sanji. I won’t share the link or full original post, because I don’t want people to go there and comment and make a fuss, but I also wanted to mention it as I do think it has affected the Lu/Na shippers view a lot.

More than anything though I think that Lu/Na shippers forget how many Sanji x Nami moments Oda himself has written in the manga. Then they use the fillers as an excuse or even anti-SaNa propaganda to lift their own ship and downplay SaNa. This is the perhaps radical opinion I have about it at least, because honestly when going through a manga that is 1000+ chapters and adding filler moments to that you can probably find a lot of inconsistencies that align with whatever agenda you try to push. You just have to use the right angle and ignore examples that might go against your point. (Which the Lu/Na fandom clearly has done) "It's Toei's fault SaNa looks like a good ship to some" is such a weird rhetoric to have considering how many great SaNa moments there are in the manga.

For me Sa/Na in the manga is a good ship that has had a lot of great moments. I feel like Lu/Na shippers tend to ignore or downplay how much Oda has given Sanji and Nami time to have their own relationship development and that Sa/Na is far from a shallow gag ship that’s promoted by Toei as some of them try to claim. Luffy himself said in WCI to Sanji that “Nami and the others worried about you more than anyone” and Nami and Sanji had their own storylines with serious interactions in many arcs despite Sanji not being the main hero.

In the end, maybe Toei’s image of the manga and the characters simply doesn’t fit with what the Lu/Na shippers want it to be? Maybe they have read too much into things that don't really suggest what they want it to? And then consequently get angry when other pairs get more shippy moments than their own.

Also, in general I find the filler excuse kind of funny, because they imply that Oda has no influence over the anime whatsoever and that Toei animation are the bad guys going against his will on purpose. Yet Toei also makes the movies, and some of those are extremely well-received, praised and used as “proof” amongst the Lu/Na fandom. So the movies are just this big exception when Toei does what Oda actually wants, while when it comes to the canon story being adapted they totally ignore Oda’s wishes and story? I very much doubt it. It’s simply Lu/Na shippers needing a villain for why things don’t look the way they want in the added anime moments, which are supposed to be extended filler based on the manga material and characters’ personalities. Of course they might not get it all right when making the anime, but I very much doubt they are adding things for some targeted reason towards shippers. (Though, again, pandering does exist to some extent where it might work in line with the characters).

In my opinion there are fillers added that are both positive and negative in regards to most fans’ views of the characters. But they are there to fill gaps, and to prolong the anime. Some are extensions of scenes Oda wrote, others are complete AU’s like the Edo Historical Special fillers. But it’s still going to be based on how the writers, producers and directors have interpreted the characters in the manga. Often that will mean things like more exaggerated gags or rehashed stories with new filler characters or the existing scenes getting more “flare”.

Of course at times the anime does very stupid additions that doesn’t always make sense, but even so the manga is still their source material. Though of course they only know what already is and not what Oda is planning to write. Hence we can sometimes see things lean more into what is going on in the current arc sometimes. Like in the 3rd movie when Sanji says he wants to be a prince, likely because of his Mr. Prince portrayal in Alabasta happening close to the movie being made, despite this clearly going against canon now years later when we know he is a prince and doesn’t like his heritage at all.

If Lu/Na shippers say Toei adds more shippy moments for SaNa than Lu/Na then it’s likely because Toei thinks it’s more in line with Sanji and Nami as characters compared to with Luffy. In the end though, filler is filler, and what Oda writes is what truly matters.

Personally I think the portrayal of Sanji and Nami is better in the manga compared to the anime (as most things) and never has filler been a reason for me personally to ship them or think they could become canon. It’s simply added moments, sometimes they are nice and other times not so nice. I know many other SaNa shippers are the same. I wanted to say this because too many times I see anti SaNa fans say those that ship them together must not read the manga. Trust me, we do.

But who knows, maybe I am the salty and biased one and Toei is actually pro Sa/Na against the will of Oda.

As for your second question I touched on it veeeery briefly in THIS POST speaking a little about SaNa in Wano. But I must admit this question is a lot more difficult to me than the first one. Especially since you ask about Nami’s feelings manifesting in particular and also asking for a prediction.

Honestly I don’t think we have gotten anything major from Nami herself except her worry and involvement in Sanji’s story during Zou and WCI. We got a few moments in Wano as well, like Sanji carrying her again, protecting her and of course the “Take care of my Nami-san” line. For me it’s the possible changes in Oda’s writing of Sanji and Nami and some of Sanji’s interactions and reactions to Nami that makes me think feelings from Nami’s side might be slowly developed and could appear in some form further ahead.

I know you said “recent arcs” but I hope you will allow me to go back a bit to other arcs as well to explain what I mean.

In my opinion I don’t think it’s impossible that Oda has escalated Sanji and Nami’s interactions and highlighted their interest and worry of each other for a long time now. Of course it’s always been there, even back in Arlong Park, Drum Island, Skypiea and of course Enies Lobby and Thriller Bark. Often Oda has paired the two together or at least made one chase or help the other. As Oda once put it, after he draws Nami it’s simply natural that Sanji follows (Watch video at 46.40). And this might be partly a joke, but we also know it’s true and we have many good interactions between them in most arcs.

What I think is that during Fishman Island, Punk Hazard and Dressarosa Oda started the more obvious set up with Sanji for Whole Cake Island and what was to come with his family and backstory. What Oda did before WCI with Sanji was to set up and remind the readers of four things in particular; his kindness, his doubt in his value to the crew as more than a chef (as part of his sacrificial nature), his chivalry and lastly even his character's “chance” for romance. I think Oda brought back these things to remind us clearly who Sanji is and what he is about before his fate during Zou and WCI was revealed. The fact that Oda has used Sanji in two romantic plots with first Viola and then Purin and with both of them ending up liking him despite their initial goal and them turning to the aid of the strawhats because of him says a lot on its own.

So why does this matter for the development of SaNa? Well, first of all Sanji was clearly seen leaving both these women behind for Nami in particular. We even saw Purin’s reaction to SaNa specifically. Of course one could say it’s simply to foreshadow Purin liking Sanji and it being read as jealousy, but in the end it’s still Oda drawing Sanji with Nami happily in his arms after everything they have been through.

I’ve said it before but I don’t think Oda keeps making moments like this at random. Nami has been there in several pivotal moments for Sanji, and she and Sanji have in many instances been placed together to add to the other’s story or highlight the other’s character traits. For many of the plot set-ups with Sanji prior to WCI Nami was there to explain or show it to us readers.

For example saying Yonji is nothing like Sanji or through her doubting the Sanji clone is really him due to him not helping them.

Other characters also mention often how kind Sanji is and honestly I think people need to remember that this is a trait Oda sees in Sanji and keeps mentioning. I say this because in the WCI arc in particular Oda portrays Sanji as a good potential love interest and a very good person in general. A lot of anti-SaNa fans seem to think Nami sees no positive traits in Sanji, despite Oda writing Nami saying good things as direct opinions from her that she has about Sanji. Clearly she sees a lot of good in him despite his flaws and Oda had her point it out clearly.

We also know Sanji has risked or straight out sacrificed himself for Nami many times, but she has most times not seen it or even known about it. Of course she cares about her nakama and Nami has been used in this way before (and with other crewmembers as well), but even so I think Oda’s focus on Nami in particular is there to clearly show us her image of him before everything unfolds in the Zou and WCI arcs after. He is someone she can trust and depend on, a savior and protector, and she doesn’t want to see him get hurt.

We even got Nami coming out of hiding in Zou because she was worried. Not to mention she willingly goes to a Yonkou territory for Sanji’s sake, and actually she is insisting on following despite being told no at first. She also defends Sanji against Zoro and gets offened on his behalf and is in general the main driving force behind going to save Sanji.

Another rather subtle change from Oda (though noticable amongst SaNa shippers for sure) is the increased amount in touching between Sanji and Nami. Something that has been seen through several cases in WCI, and that continued on to Wano as well though most of it was Sanji carrying many people at the same time.

I also think WCI could have been a turning point for Nami’s feelings even though she isn’t showing it openly yet. Maybe she will keep being tsundere about it until the end, or maybe she isn’t really aware of her own feelings herself yet. I could also be reading things wrong. But I don’t think we should underestimate Oda adding one sign of Sanji seeing mutual affection, one joke about a proposal and a possessive claim of Nami being “his”. Because Oda likely won’t write something like this for no reason, and though two of them are hidden behind gags, it’s a change compared to earlier moments that are similar.

I am actually writing a small theory on this and how Sanji might sense Nami’s feelings slowly changing for him through his observation haki. I would love to talk about it more because I think this could be Oda’s way of changing things very slowly without making it obvious, but I kinda think it needs a post of its own.

I think that either Oda will keep adding these small types of moments but not really commit to making anything official until the very end, or if we are lucky, he will write more to build on the conflict in WCI and what Nami knows about Sanji to add some bigger moments between them. But I doubt any of it will be any type of confirmed relationship as I don’t think Oda will want to change the strawhat dynamics until the series is ending.

(Though Purin coming back is also likely happening and I think that is definitely going to show us if Oda has intentions for San/Pu to develop to something more or not.)

Anyways, to sum it up I think Oda’s way of writing SaNa and adding more touch and things like that between them is a sign for SaNa to possibly happen further ahead. But I think Nami is still either tsundere or maybe even unaware of her feelings, and Sanji is sensing them but letting things stay the way they are. I think Oda might be stalling so he doesn't have to write actual romance or change their interactions too much. Does that make sense? So Nami’s feelings are right now mostly manifesting through Sanji sensing them change slowly, basically. Hence comments like “My Nami-san” only happening in Wano despite Sanji being the way he is since the very beginning. At the very least Oda has definitely given SaNa a lot of great looking moments in the New World and I hope he will keep it up.

I could probably go into more details or examples, but I hope I kind of answered your question at least. I know I wrote a lot more about the first topic, but like I said that was a lot easier and more straightforward.

I hope this was all an interesting read for you. Either way I want to say thanks for asking it though, because I had a lot of fun writing this.

#sanji #nami #one piece #sanami #sannami #sannami analysis #sanji x nami #one piece manga #one piece anime #one piece shipping #one piece filler #toei pro shipping #anime vs manga #one piece anime vs manga #toei filler

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kichimiangra · 2 years

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Legit I was having a debate with an imaginary person inside my head that lead to me collecting data of multiple pairings that tend to get flack for being a ship that includes an adult and a minor Character within their canon continuities and was actually surprised by how legit LOW the numbers for those pairings were as a percentage of the fandom for that ship. Like I know we all know people exaggerate and blow things out of proportion but but even I, a person who actually enjoys some of those pairings I searched for various reasons not due to their ages, thought those numbers would be HIGHER.

And infact the numbers are probably LOWER than my data because I didn't account for things like "AU where the canonically older one is the same or similar age so they're both minors here" or "the sexual content was performed by an older third party that isn't the pairing and is treated as a traumatic event in the one characters backstory" type of things. Or that some of my data pulled up numbers that didn't account for overlapping terms and as such showed up multiple times in the data pool, artificially increasing the numbers.

Like I'm not here to scream "I told you so" I am just legit surprised myself at how low the numbers are. Like I got stuff here old enough to remember when pedobear jokes was socially acceptable humor and yet even with duplicate results only 3.7% actually include "one of these characters is a child while the other is either an adult or clearly coded as one in the case of paranormal, immortal, or long aged non human creatures." 3.7%!!! THAT IS SO DAMN LOW!!

The highest number for any of my subjects was 21.4% and as far as data goes I threw that one in for a meme and was VASTLY higher than all of the other data.

It was not only data on tagging but I would use rng to select a sample size of fics to check out and keep track of how the ship was portrayed within the fan content and at least 40% for each fic per pairing required an Asterix with a note like "This is clearly being set up as horror and traumatic rather than titilating" or "Time Travel shenanigans" or for that high percentage meme one there was a lot of "The character is still portrayed as a minor in this fic but HAS been aged up to 17, ALMOST 18" or "aged up to age of consent for state in question (17)"

And this wasn't percentages competing against the whole fandom forbthat seires/franchise. That was only data vs the ship itself to see how it is portrayed in transformative works by the shippers who ship it.

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chaztalk · 2 years

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Boy, do I have a lot to say when a saw this (from a Romione shipper):

Let’s break it down

No offense to any guy that follows my account.

A common translation when using “no offense” before you make a statement is: “I’m about to hurt your feelings but let’s pretend I didn’t.” And in the end, they do indeed, because what they are basically saying is that most men are complete dunderheads when it comes romance (and, no, I’m not meaning we men act awkward or oblivious when we are in a relationship with someone). More on this later…

I am sure not all men are the same.

Wow, really? What a profound statement! Kudos to you for realizing that we aren’t robots. Oh wait, you’re just saying as a weird way an attempt to compliment the male Romione followers you have because the next thing you say:

Most men don’t like our ship.

Most men, or most people in general don’t ship fictional ships in general. There’s a real world out there and the world doesn’t revolve around HP ships. If I asked my dad or sister (both ignore/avoid nerdy things) whether they preferred Harmione or Romione, I’d simply get shrugs and eye rolls as a response since they don’t care. Also, I’ve seen a lot of women dislike the ship too. You know, I dislike the ship because of how Hermione treats Ron. Females that tend to dislike Romione because of how Ron treats Hermione. So why aren’t they mentioned here too? Is it just the fact that since you have a low opinion on Harmione and a low opinion on males’ thoughts and feelings that you found it relevant to make these assumptions? Maybe. And, yes, I’m not a fan of Romione. JKR had this bad deal in the books with the only way someone had feelings for the other person through jealousy, and that became really annoying to me. Also, as of late, I do like the main male character paired up with the female main character because it generally makes sense if authors go that way correctly. I recently read the first book of The Blue Lagoon trilogy, which is categorized as a romance novel, which it shouldn’t. Regardless of the lack of romance in that, Emmaline and Dick make more sense than the canon pairings in the Harry Potter series. What are Harry and Ginny without quidditch? What are Ron and Hermione without fighting/bickering? Bottom line is, we don’t really see either of the two hanging out, or it’s just very vaguely described. And that’s my issue with the romance in HP.

They like Harry/Hermione.

Or Lunarry, Haphne or Flowerpot, or even Harry/OC. Exploration of a relationship is a fun part of FanFiction. I’m not a fan of Luna. Haphne is an OC to me, Flowerpot is ok, but not every fanfic author writes Fleur with a French accent like in the books, and Harry/OC is where the actual self-insertion takes place. So, if I had to choose between these and Harmione, I choose Harmione Harmione is more popular than other non-canon HP ships because they have more foundation in canon. One thing I have learned reading fanfic is that the romance progresses pretty fast, and I’m not a fan of that. I’m a slow burn guy. One can argue that Rowling did that with Hinny. From my experience with reading fics with a Harry or Hermione ship other than Harmione, the romance progresses rapidly. Harmione fics do that too, but I’ve read a lot more slowburnish Harmione fics than any other HP ship.

They want to be the hero and get together with the main female lead played by Emma Watson.

This kind of logic doesn’t really make much sense to me. First of all, isn’t Ron also considered a hero too? Couldn’t that also mean that make Romione shippers ship Romione because they perceive themselves as Ron being with Emma Watson, I mean Hermione? Tbh, most people relate to Ron than people to Harry. Even me. Such silly assumptions! Call me an over-exaggerator, but what I think this translates to is: “Male Harmione shippers are sad, lonely, pathetic, obsessive (of Emma Watson) souls and they read Harmione fics to achieve their desire to get with Emma Watson (Hermione) by being Harry”. Is that not crazy-sounding to you?

That’s it.

Haha, no it ain’t. Harmione is one of my comfort ships that serves as a model for what I want in a relationship (my others are Cleon, Jeid, Snowbarry). You know, ships that people would call “vanilla” because they’d be less problematic…

Lastly, I want to talk about gender. Why did they choose males as a way to bring down the ship? Is it because males are less intelligent in the romance category? Is it because men aren’t huge fans of drama? Maybe a mix of both. I cannot account for the first question, but I frankly don’t know he is intelligent at romance. To the second question, I do like drama sometimes, just not the Ron and Hermione kind. The ships with drama I follow are: Brucas, Dasey, Lauriver, and Silver Sablinova/Spiderman. Moving on, women who ship Hermione are not mentioned here because of the assumption that mostly men ship Harmione. I just want to note that, from my Instagram stats, the male-female percentage for my followers is 50-50. A perfect balance. Could this be a sign that says the Harmione ship is the most balanced by gender?

One final thing: I’ve been working on this sporadically for a couple weeks. I just hate being treated this way, and it just feels better to let out my thoughts and frustrations here. Thank you.

#harry potter #hermione granger #harmony #harmione #harry and hermione #harry x hermione #harry/hermione #anti romione #anti hinny #cleon #snowbarry #dasey #jeid #lauriver #brucas

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harmfulot · 3 years

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Hi!! Before you read this or try to take this down please just consider reading this instead of being so hateful. I don’t mean to spread hate onto any shippers but I do believe that Inuyasha’s fandom has a major problem that needs to be addressed. Trigger warning for pedophila,child p*rn and grooming.

Why Sessrin is problematic.

Sessrin is a very popular ship among the Inuyasha community. If you are a shipper of this pair you won’t have to worry for lack of content for it. Rin is a injured child character that is introduced in the original Inuyasha manga in issue 14. She meets Sesshomaru in the forest and even though she is going through a lot at such a young age her kind self still tries to help him out. Sesshomaru at first does not care for this child who is tending to him. He tells her to mind her business and has her leave. Soon after Rin is killed by Kouga’s pack of wolves and Sesshomaru with his demon power scented her blood and comes to save her with his Tenseiga. After this Sessshomaru decides to take in Rin and protect her even though he had a hatred for humans. A “similarly” shippers like to compare Inuyasha and Kagome’s relationship with but their relationship is not written with romantic tensions..

The reason why Rin was written and VERY important in Inuyasha is because she is the reason why Sesshomaru became a better person. He no longer hated humans or wanted to go against his brother. This broken human child Rin looked up to Sesshomaru who was a powerful older demon. Sesshomaru grew a soft side and it was because of her caring innocence. You could easily see their connection as father and daughter or Sesshomaru as a guardian for her. Never did he have the thought of getting with her when she got older and Rin never developed a crush on him. Why? Because she is a child who lost her parents and now has this person who protects her like one. People may say that Jaken was the father figure for Rin but I don’t agree because unlike Sesshomaru he did not care for Rin and only handled her to please his lord. Jaken would call Rin many negative things and go off at her. Rin was annoyed by Jaken. He is certainly not a parent figure for her. Sesshomaru provided a stay aside him to lead for Rin which she followed. Rin was no longer alone. She had Sesshomaru’s company now. Even if he was not very good at taking care of her he never wanted her to get hurt or killed again. He is new to this “taking care of people” thing after all especially humans...young humans. Sessrin would destroy the growth of Sesshomaru because it can’t be denyed that their relationship represents this much more than a romance waiting to happen. When Kagura came along Rin told Jaken joyfully she bet Kagura had a crush on Sesshomaru this small moment reminds you she a is a child that lost her parents and could be seeing this as a opportunity for Kagura to become her adoptive mother. And most Sesshomaru cosplayers would use their daughter to cosplay for Rin. Usually making the picture taken seem like Sesshomaru is protecting Rin or having them both share a cute bonding moment. Why? Because that is how their relationship is meant to be established. For a Sessrin cosplay to work people would have to age up Rin and her design or else the cosplayers would receive negative feedback. Now moving on to how aging up Rin is not okay either.

People claim they only would like to see these two get together once Rin is older but that is almost as bad as shipping Sessrin while she is a child. Sesshomaru saw Rin grow up. He raised her for a while as his own this needs to stop being denied in the fandom. For Sesshomaru to impregnate Rin is out of character. And seems like a sick fanasty. He is not that kind of character. He wouldn’t touch Rin in that matter. Even if she was in her late 20’s. He respected child Rin and would still respect her older. Sessrin is like if a babysitter got together with the person they use to take care of as a kid. It’s disturbing!! Not cute. Rin does not deserve to be fedished.

It’s actually terrifying how much child p*rn there is of Rin. I feel so ashamed by even coming across one by mistake. Don’t use the excuse that Rin is a fictional character. Enough with that excuse. Let’s throw that excuse away. That excuse of “it’s fictional it does not matter..” only works for certain things like when someone assigns headcanons for their favorite character or ships a non-canon pair that isn’t problematic. Not when we are speaking of drawing nsfw of a fictional child. And fictional or not. Rin is a child and every grown person who has drawn smut of her should be ashamed and even arrested. If you see a fictional child in this matter what knows what could you lead you up to see an actual kid as this too. It’s a big problem because there are so many people who have gotten away with this. It’s so easy to find a image of child Rin without any of her clothes on or being r*ped by Sesshomaru. Sesshomaru would never r*pe anyone. It’s quite sad. Kagome was saved from being sexually assaulted by Mukostu because of Sesshomaru. People has even brought doujinshi comics of Sessrin making love or may I call it child p*rn in disguise? Be honest with yourself. It really is just that.

Everyone finding out would be horrified. Excluding Hanyo No Yashahime which majorly changed the characters. Sesshomaru and Rin being together would make everyone uncomfortable even Miroku who has before asked a child if she would bare his kid. Which Inuyasha,Kagome,and Sango reacted very badly to. And was yelled at for it. They do not tolerate pedos nor grooming. Kagome especially would be against. She referred Rin as the girl many times and puzzled together that Sesshomaru took care for Rin. Many people bring up that Kouga proposed to Ayame when she was a kid but remember that was never in the original. Sunrise created Ayame and added this other plot in order for Kouga to have someone at the end. Which is sad because this could have worked if Ayame met Kouga and gained a crush on him instead. She was a cute character after all. In the manga Kouga remains by himself since Kagome stayed with Inuyasha. Now I am definitely not a fan of Kouga and Ayame. I despise the fact Sunrise only created her to be Kouga’s romance interest but having him tell her he would marry her once she was older was even worse. This was a choice Sunrise made not Kouga’s original character. The reason why Kagome does not call out Kouga on this is because she did not know Ayame was a child at the time he proposed. He never mentioned it but if he did I’m certain Kagome would have not tried to keep setting them up together knowing this information. And just a reminder that even in real life some Inuyasha voice actors such as Richard Ian Cox and David Kaye voice actor for Sesshomaru does not support Sessrin. Adding on shipping Rin with Sesshomaru is like shipping Shippo with Inuyasha or Kagome. Weird right?? In the Manga Sesshomaru’s Mother Inukimi says that Sesshomaru is like his father in the strangest of ways after saving Rin again. No this doesn’t mean that he will soon come to love her romantically because Inukimi did add “In the strangest of ways” and refers to Rin as a girl like Kagome. She means that Sesshomaru had now changed and that he cared about someone who was a human like his dad who also cared for them even though they are both demons.

It’s funny how the sequel claims girl power but does not know how to treat it’s female characters. Kagome and Sango are both introduced as Inuyasha and Miroku’s wives instead of their actual character. Now if you not a woman please do not have a say in this unless you wish to agree but this is very sexist Sunrise. I’m not exaggerating how upsetting and disrespectful it is to see you introduce these strong main female role models like this. Inuyasha and Miroku were not titled as husbands of...so why were Kagome and Sango? I’m sure 99% of audience would know who is married to who. Women are not objects or tools Sunrise. Kagome is the main character of Inuyasha even if his name is on title. She is the reason why got to meet these characters. Sunrise has done female characters dirty many times like making Ayame obessed with Kouga when she could have been a neat character but what they did to Rin takes the cake. Rin is introduced as “The girl who adores Sesshomaru” but apparently now that girl is the mother of his children. Shame on you Sunrise!! We only saw Rin ever as a child even when series ended aging her up to become Sesshomaru’s wife without knowing how she is as a grown person is not a good example for your younger female audience to view. This could have been avoided.

Even though I’m a minor who only been in this fandom for half a year I gather a lot of knowledge of how far this fandom goes. It was definitely most popular around early 2000’s and many say it was their first anime with their first anime crush being Sesshomaru. Inuyasha was an anime I did not look content for till later after finishing season 2. When I discovered Sessrin I was real confused and thought to myself it was just a small part of the fandom but I could have been more wrong. Many accounts I followed that involved Inuyasha shipped Sessrin. Even after finishing many Inuyasha episodes I was very confused on why this was a thing and how could have it gotten so big. I thought something magical would have happened like Rin turning out to be someone much older but that never happened. I was wrong. This ship is just pedophila and nothing else. And I’m sure if Sesshomaru wasn’t “attractive” Sessrin wouldn’t be big. Going back to people crushing on Sesshomaru when they were younger I’m sure the reason Sessrin is not more discussed about for how toxic it is online is because besides people being scared,people like to insert themselves as Rin but this has to stop. Adults should not pair a child and grown up together even if the child is now grown. Especially grown ups with kids. This is not good example to set for your kids. I’ve seen many minors being harassed online for disliking Sessrin by adults. Which is super immature and should be in trouble for. Netruals must know that is not a ship war because there have been people who have gotten horrible hate and were told very graphic things by Sessrin shippers. ( By the way I’m sorry to anyone who has been hurt online even Sessrin shippers. I do not support Sessrin but no one should be told awful things. ) Many Inuyasha fans which dislike Sessrin have left Twitter and Tumblr because of how much hate they have gotten. This is not okay. People should be able to voice their opinion on something without being told to commit s*icide or hoping they get r*ped.

And your point? This sequel is being written in the 21th century. We could write it however we please not everything has to be “accurate” and also this state is just supporting the idea of children being wed with a grown up was okay before because the age of consent was different. Ugh..but this claim is just another excuse. Please stop using it. Many things in the past were allowed which wouldn’t be allowed today. So no this is not a valid reason to ship Rin with Sesshomaru.

Sunrise should not be off the hook for using child Rin clips for the opening as the daughters are shown. It was a wrong decision to make them seem like “moments” since now many actual pedophiles will support this pair as well. Even before this continuing was announced Sessrin was a big thing and “adult Rin” was not. Sunrise should not be supporting Sessrin at all. Nor anyone in the Inuyasha crew. They have many young fans watching and supporting this anime and they are being influenced and will grow up to think grooming is okay when it’s not. Again in 2021 this can not be allowed and it shouldn’t have ever. This sequel was not necessary. The anime ended fine.

If Rin is the mom I will no longer support Hanyo No Yashahime. I’m sorry but I will sadly have to drop it. There are a lot of reasons why Sessrin should not be a thing and Sunrise should know many themselves,because they have joined along these character’s journeys and seen through scripts who they are. And what Sessrin is pedophila and grooming that happened to get a lot of support which is why it is hard to find more people within online media discuss it. I sure do hope it does because I am tired of seeing only few doing it. We need more awareness of how problematic grooming pairs are in anime media. No more portraying children to grow up as romance interests for people they were raised by. Let’s keep Sesshomaru and Rin’s relationship wholesome. There is no need for them to get together. At the end of the day Rin owns Sesshomaru nothing and he knows that. Let’s start viewing them from a different point of view. Let’s see more fanart of them acting like father and daughter. I love that. Thank you and have a good day.

#Anti Sessrin #Inuyasha #Hanyo No Yashahime #Anti Grooming #Sunrise #I EDITED THIS SO MANY TIMES CAUSE OF ERRORS AND PEOPLE HAVE REBLOGGED IT THAT WAY YEE #Don’t encourage this

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lunarfly · 3 years

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Honestly, you should check out this Dante Wood fella on Quora. He’s this multi potterhead ship hater who asks many rude and insulting questions on Romione, Harmione, Hinny and Dramione shippers. He’s literally become the bane of their existence. I almost would feel bad for them but then I realize these are the same users/shippers that ask insincere questions to the other ship/shipper. Guess karma is a bitch;)

Hello, thank you for the ask!

Yeah, I checked out his profile and I'm not so impressed. He's hateful and spiteful. But I must admit, he has got a very fair point. Before I talk about that though, I'll just bring up a few things:

Even though he often underlines very important issues with our fandom's "ship wars," his account still shouldn't exist. He's rude and he goes the wrong way about sending his messages. He keeps spitting venom out of his mouth when he should try to be logical and explain his points without any insults and attacks. But when do respectful people ever get anything, it's always the drama and over exaggeration that draws people's attention.

He's hypocritical. He says he hates the fact that shippers constantly generalize the other sides of the fandom but he also generalizes shippers himself. He calls out shippers collectively, as if we were all to blame for a few people's toxic behavior and generalizing tendencies. He generalizes us (the shippers) by saying we all generalize each other (the other shippers).

He hates on Harmione/Romione/Hinny/Dramione and only justifies his hatred by the shippers. But just hating it isn't bad at all, everyone's allowed to hate something. The thing is, he also claims that all of these ships "suck" and are all "garbage." He never presents any arguments or constructive criticism, he just says they're objectively bad ships because they have bad shippers. I'm pretty sure everyone can see the problem with this logic.

Now about his messages. I must say, I agree with him a whole lot. So many people in this fandom tend to generalize everyone. Examples of this?

"Harmione shippers haven't read the books! They only ship it because of the movies!"

"You only ship Hermione with ___ because you use her as a self-insert tool! You ___/Hermione shippers only want to project your own feelings onto her, you don't actually understand her character!"

"All Romione/Hinny shippers are toxic! None of them respect our ship!"

"All Harmione/Dramione shippers hate Ron and Ginny"

And much more.

While many of those claims do apply to many shippers, they don't apply to everyone. And generalizing a group of people while talking about them negatively is obviously wrong and harms both sides of the "war."

The ridiculous argument that "Harmony shippers haven't read the books" started (or gained popularity) in 2005 when J.K. Rowling said this in an interview:

JKR: Well I think anyone who is still shipping Harry/Hermione after this book –

ES: [whispered] Delusional!

JKR: Uh ’ no! But they need to go back and reread, I think.

That one simple comment still affects the H/Hr shipping community to this day, even after JKR admitted the possibility of H/Hr in 2014.. People are still calling us dumb and delusional, people still claim that we haven't read the books - and this argument has been expanded after people started noticing how the movies were sort of pushing a H/Hr narrative - people still make fun of us and many don't take us seriously. But people were shipping Harmione long before the release of the movies and they (including me) have written countless analyses pointing out moments from the books and reasons why Harry and Hermione would make a good couple but this ridiculous generalization, a kind of rumor, is still around and I don't think it's going to leave any time soon.

The Ron and Ginny bashing rumor is more understandable since a huge part of the H/Hr fandom absolutely hate the two gingers and will find anything to tear them down and make them seem as cartoonishly evil as possible. But we still shouldn't apply this to everyone. I, for one, love Ron and Ginny and know many Harmione shippers who feel the same way.

(In the following paragraphs I am talking about the HP fandom generally but obviously these things don't apply to every person individually.)

The majority of the Harry Potter fandom these days only truly accepts book lovers into discussions and their "main" fandom (people who solely make video edits or such are in a different kind of fandom). But everyone who's a book lover and doesn't ship Romione/Hinny or dislikes Ron/Ginny will slowly be forced to either liking these or leaving the fandom. Because, according to most of the fandom, if you don't like these characters/pairings, you haven't read the books, you're toxic and you're stupid. If you like Harmione, you're automatically labeled with "Movie Watcher," "Weasley Basher," "Toxic Garbage." People will start making assumptions about you and your work before they know you. Even if people learn that you're not any of those, these generalizations won't stop. No matter how much you do, no one will take you seriously, no one will care, no one will accept you, no one will explore your work. You will only be acknowledged in the book-loving fandom if you ship Romione and Hinny or if you're an extremely toxic person (that way you'll get mocked for every word that comes out of your mouth, but you'll deserve it if you're really a toxic person). This fandom also tends to misunderstand the words "toxic" and "bashing." Any sort of criticism is labeled with "bashing" and the author of that criticism is labeled with "toxic." Not that there aren't people who are toxic and hateful but our fandom tends to fail to see the difference between constructive criticism and hate.

And there are also those "big" accounts who are praised for every word they say. They can bash any ship or character they want to and the majority of the fandom (the book-loving, canon-ship-loving one that I explained) will agree with it and spread their words around. When they say something about one shipper, it will automatically be applied to everyone who ships that. If they say that any ship with Harry and Hermione that isn't Romione and Harmione suck, the majority of the fandom will accept it as objective truth and since they have most of the fandom supporting them they feel comfortable repeating and accepting these things. As a result of these things being accepted as common knowledge, the people who don't agree feel isolated from the fandom. For example, I do. I follow lots of people who ship Romione and Hinny or love Ron and Ginny because I also feel the same way about these characters and pairings. But I can't go a day without seeing at least one of them degrade Harmione and send hate to the ship + shippers. The more hate my ship gets, the more these rumors, labels and arguments spread around. And Harmione shippers get called stupid for loving a fictional pairing, so I constantly feel invalidated in this fandom, even if no one addresses me specifically. The ideas that Harmione is a horrible ship and its shippers are toxic and so on are so engrained in our fandom that they're seen as almost "rules" of the fandom and no single person can change that. I constantly feel like I'm invalid for liking Harmione and this isn't normal. Our fandom pushes the idea that the only intelligent people are those who support the canon pairings and disapprove of ships like Harmione, Fremione and etc. I understand the hatred against Dramione and every other toxic ship, but I can't for my life figure out why people feel the need to tear down every healthy fanon ship. But they do it anyway. They consider everyone who disagrees with them "stupid" and unintelligent. I feel like I don't belong every time I see comments like "Ugh, how can someone ship Harry and Hermione? They're like siblings, people! You clearly haven't read the books." or "Anyone who ships this doesn't have a brain, they're too strongly influenced by the movies. They clearly don't understand Harry and Hermione." Sometimes I see my own friends calling H/Hr "strange" and such and they clearly don't help me feel any better. I feel the need to go in Harmony-only spaces to recharge myself and regain the confidence and get the validation I need. Otherwise, I feel completely isolated and invalid.

I can't blame only one side of the fandom though. The shippers have been divided for decades now and they have been throwing insults at each other ever since. It's a never-ending war. The bad side of this today is that the book-loving fandom (the "main" fandom) has merged with the canon ships fandom and now these are inseparable. If you like the HP books, you must also like the canon pairings and dislike most of the others, otherwise you're never going to feel like you belong. So now anyone who ships Harmione won't be able to properly interact with the "main" fandom because nobody thinks their opinions that Harry and Hermione are a better match than Ron and Hermione are valid. Same thing with Dramione shippers. Do you see how Dramiones and Harmonians don't really engage in discussions or just don't interact with the "main" fandom in general (unless they're defending their ship)? They have created their own spaces, separated from the "main" fandom and that's where they are most of the time. That's where I go when I need more positivity and validation. I have the discord server and the Harmione subreddit to go to. That's the only place I'm really comfortable in. If I go to a more "general" part of the fandom like the main HP subreddit or some of the biggest HP books fan accounts, it will affect me negatively because I will mostly see Romione and Hinny be glorified and Harmione treated like trash. Not only my ship but also the shippers. Which is probably the main reason I find the fandom toxic. All of this just ties into the stupid generalization and name-calling that causes the rift between OBHWF and Harmione shippers which leads me to seeing both sides of the fandom be attacked and bombarded depending on which space I choose to spend my time in.

I'm not going to pretend that the Harmione fandom is full of angels who are oppressed by Romione shippers. Because whenever I go to a Harmione-oriented space, I will find anti-Ron/Romione/Hinny/Ginny (and their stans) posts. Harmonians will often call Romiones toxic and hateful and will basically do everything in order to insult them. And they return the favor excellently. This happens with the majority of the fandoms so both of the sides just think every shipper is like the toxic shippers they interacted with, causing generalization and all of the problems I talked about above. And that forms a toxic environment.

I generally just talked about my experiences with generalization and insulting but there are many more things wrong with the fandom, so I definitely agree with Dante Wood in that aspect. But again, I don't think every single shipper is toxic and hateful and I most certainly don't think that Romione, Harmione and Hinny are trash (Dramione just might be). I pointed out all of my reasons for disliking his account at the beginning of my post. I just wish he fixed those problems with his account, then he would have such a great one.

I almost would feel bad for them but then I realize these are the same users/shippers that ask insincere questions to the other ship/shipper. Guess karma is a bitch;)

Here's where I get confused. Why did you send me this message? I am not one of those people who go and attack a part of the fandom I disagree with. I don't constantly attack Romione and Hinny, nor their shippers. I actually love those ships. I might criticize Dramione and other toxic ships but I'm not the one at war with them. I know I wrote a post basically calling Dramiones brainless once and I regret that. I think I'm a better person now. No matter how much I hate this ship I won't send hate to its shippers (P*dophilic ships are a different deal though, those ships are even more serious). So how exactly is this a consequence for what I've done when I've done basically nothing? And even if I did, how is Dante Wood's account supposed to affect me? He talks about the toxicity of shippers while being toxic and hateful himself. Am I supposed to take that seriously? He calls us hypocritical and proceeds to do the same himself. That's not the kind of person I take criticism seriously from (ignoring the fact that many of his posts aren't even criticism, it's just hate).

Anyway, thank you for taking your time to send me that message! Sharing my thoughts on Dante Wood's thoughts and account was fun! :)

#harry potter fandom

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btsandvmin · 3 years

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hi i really love reading your posts!! thank you for taking your precious time to write about my favourite pair <3

ok my first ever question: (sorry if you’ve been asked this already). what do you think about jimin and jungkook having the most screen time in the memories of 2019 dvd? we’ve seen how close vmin were in 2019 but there was only a very very few vmin moments edited in the whole 10 hour dvd.. the longest vmin interaction being when jimin pointed out a mistake tae made on stage and tae basically said: i admit but don’t exaggerate it. from the lack of seeing vmin together on the dvd, i was thinking if a new army were to watch it, they’d think vmin aren’t as close and cute as jimin and jungkook. whereas they showed us jimin and jungkook rehearsing, goofing around, eating, arriving and leaving together in their car in every part. i understand jimin and jungkook like to spend time together but they could’ve shown us the other members a little more including vmin.. what are your thoughts?

First of all I do think we did get Vmin moments and that often perspective on these things can vary a lot just on how you experience something. Here is another person who thought we got a lot of Vmin in memories 2019 just as an example.

It’s a bit the same as with people calling Vmin dead despite everything we might get. And I think comparing is sadly a big factor in this. But once again, one ship having more or less moments shouldn’t be an indicator of their status or closeness as long as they clearly show signs of still being close. Which Vmin always have done. We should also remember that shippers spread moments and the amount you see things might make it feel like it’s even more than it is. I am not saying Ji/kook don’t have a lot of moments, but they might feel like even more than they are. If we compare maybe they have similar amounts of moments with less popular ships, like Jin/kook, but we don’t hear about it as much. (In memories I also think most of those 10 hours won’t be ship moments in general.)

I think for the most time when we see something it’s because that’s what the members are doing. We should also remember their individual personalities, and that some members might show up more simply becuse they spend more time doing fun things in front of the camera. I think Jimin, Jin and JK tend to get a lot more Bangtan Bomb time because they do “more interesting things” for example. Meanwhile Tae might be seen sitting on his phone in a corner or Namjoon might be resting etc.

I think using screen time to try an prove a ship won’t work on it’s own, but that screen time is a clear indicator of the bonds we see being genuine and that Ji/kook spend a lot together and are very close. But I don’t think lack of screen time definitely means the opposite. There can be many reasons we see more of various pairs. For example we also see a lot of Jin/kook, but their shippers aren’t as loud so we might not take note of it as much. We also get a lot of Vmin in other things like Bon Voyage, but that doesn’t mean that suddenly Ji/kook is dead. I really don’t think comparing is going to do anything good. I also think many ships get promoted in various ways, like being together for photoshoots or commercials etc. But for all we know they might partly get to choose themselves. Or it simply brings in good money to put some pairs together more etc. But even if there is a PR strategy or reason behind what we see, I doubt it has to do with a ship being real or not.

I think we see Ji/kook spend the most time together because they are together the most when they are surrounded by cameras. I think what we see is mostly what is happening. Because suggesting Big Hit editors are paying extra attention to any certain ship like showing them more or cutting away specific things based on only what members it involves would suggest an agenda. I recently talked about it in my post Can shipping turn into conspiracy theories? but once we start to question things being bent to deliberatly fool us it may allow us to take much bigger logical leaps. That’s how the narrative of Tae/kook being sepparated leads to them being more likely to also call other things fake or played up to hide tae/kook. If we add intention behind a moment we create a narrative, and in the end the more we assume and add beliefs into facts the further away we might end up from the actual truth.

My theory has always been that if a ship is real they would likely be careful and they might have their own reasons to act certain ways. Like Vmin seemingly being a bit nervous about being alone together. It’s still a theory of course, but I am always going to be much more careful with things that come from Big Hit and point it out as an agenda to create a certain image. For example saying Big Hit are forcing Vmin to stay apart or not do Vlives or put Ji/kook together more to “hide a ship with a ship”. Or even that moments in music videos are put there on purpose to either try to show a real ship or hide another etc.

For example if we assume the editors are cutting away Vmin on purpose I personally think we end up with a lot more problems. Like for how many people would know about Vmin? If editors and camera men and directors that might shift quite a lot all know to be careful about a certain ship, that is basically like outing them.

If there is video of them doing things “not fit for camera” that certainly means they aren’t very careful and would rely more on editing than just plainly being careful themselves. Which I personally see more signs of. If editors get instructions to treat one ship differently I personally think we would have much more rumors flying around. The more people know the harder a secret is to keep. So if there is a real couple in BTS I don’t expect general staff to know.

That’s also why I see it as more unlikely a real couple would openly live alone together, only share a car with each other or openly speak about being engaged etc. Of course this is all just me guessing as I am sure whatever strategy they might use could be very different depending on a lot of things. But at least looking at Vmin vs other ships there seems to be a carefulness in certain moments, and I think that has more to do with themselves rather than what Big Hit would force from them. Any relationship is basically a threat to BTS and their careers, of course they too would be aware of this. And I personally think they would put being careful above wanting people to know about them being a couple. At least watching Vmin and their personalities that’s what I think they would choose. Aka, not sending a lot of hidden signals for fans to pick up on. I think Tae might do it to some extent, only because he tends to get more frustrated and tend to sometimes express things even though he maybe shouldn’t. But even then it seems carefully done. Like the Christmas song to me was such a moment when he wanted to share his frustration. But the second time he mentioned it he didn’t mention Jimin at all. Or the way it took years for us to hear from Taehyung’s own mouth about 4 o’clock being partly about Jimin. I think they thread carefully not only with how they come across to fans, but also staff. That being said of course I do think that they can get away with a lot and that they probably are more comfortable when they know they aren’t being filmed or if there is an option to edit. I just don’t think most staff at Big Hit would know about a ship being real and work to present it in a certain way on purpose by order from Big Hit.

I think we see ji/kook together a lot because it’s easy and fun and comfortable. I am not saying they can’t be real, but I do ask why Vmin at the same time does seem to act careful and possibly even avoid certain things.

I don’t like to speculate about the moments we don’t get, because the reasons for why could be too many. For me I doubt the editors (and even less the captions) in BTS material are put there with an agenda. I think the editors view the material and pick what they might think is fun, though they likely also have their own bias and might be affected by what they see. For example I think Vmin being labeled as friends in captions has more to do with them and BTS calling them friends all the time which then editors pick up on and use.

Saying Vmin or any other ship is cut out to me opens a can of worms that lead down very dangerous paths. Paths we have seen other shippers walk. I also know that all ships have these “why are they the only ones edited out” or “why is this moment cut” agendas. Ji/kookers too say that we got to see Vmin and Tae/kook in bed in ITS but not Ji/kook because it would be “too much/obvious”.

I think we should go by what we see, but that we also shouldn’t make a big deal out of what we don’t see. So basically, seeing less Vmin won’t really change Vmin’s bond. That’s why I say looking at even small moments are a great indicator. We shouldn’t focus so much on amount, for any ship. But most importantly we shouldn’t assume amount is an indicator of Big Hit having an agenda.

Let’s say Vmin get cut out and the effect is people wondering if Vmin is fake. Why would they create this problem to begin with just to have Vmin release Friends which in turn make more people ship Vmin? To me it’s always too flippy floppy. Like why would Big HIt hide Tae/kook but then have them do the dance in DNA together or leave in other moments “just to keep interest up”.

Again, I try to not add reasons behind things we can’t know much about, but for me I think editing and cutting away moments from a ship as a strategy would be weird looking at the full picture of BTS and what we actually do get to see. I could be wrong, but I also know the slippery road I could end up on if I start to suspect Big Hit trying to fool us on purpuse on such a big scale. In the end that would basically mean anything could be real or fake, which is the point I sadly see some tae/kookers believe. They think tae/kook has been edited out and kept apart for years, and still won’t trust they simply might spend less time together even after ITS.

So, again, I think Vmin might act careful on their own to some degree, and I think Ji/kook and Jin/kook etc. like spending time togehter and also do things that are likely more interesting to show, like joke around or tease each other. Which then leads to more moments between them.

Thanks for the ask, and I hope you see what I am trying to say. I would have loved to see more Vmin, but we still got a lot of good moments if you ask me. Also, I am sorry for the messy state of this answer, but I will definitely talk about similar topics more in proper future posts. Thank you so much for liking my blog, and I hope you still do. 💜 (Also sorry for the late answer. )

#jimin #taehyung #vmin #vmin analysis #bts analysis #vmin editing #big hit agenda #my post #btsandvmin #btsandvmin ask #btsandvmin answer #bts memories of 2019

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zuzuslastbraincell · 3 years

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IMO, if you’re going to criticise the way zukka’s booming popularity ties into the racialised fetishisation of mlm (great article on this as a phenomenon here), you should make that the core focus of your critique? I’ve seen some takes recently that try to critique it from additional angles but I feel these arguments are 1. borne out frustration 2. flawed 3. miss the point.

For example, I’ve seen some posts criticising zukka that are frustrated with people not for giving the canon wlw representation in the avatar universe the same kind of popularity and attention. I’m sympathetic to this frustration (I share it), but I think framing it in this way fails to recognise that neither of these ships are in ATLA itself. One is from a different show, that has far more inconsistent and arguably poorer writing, whose world-building has been critiqued from anti-imperialist perspectives and anti-capitalist perspectives multiple times, and critically, the canon wlw ship, while groundbreaking in children’s animation for its time, was poorly developed and foreshadowed. While you could attribute this to disputes with the executives at nicklelodeon, it doesn’t change the fact that as a viewer it’s not as compelling as it could have been. I personally love korrasami but I think there are good reasons to be disappointed or underwhelmed by its portrayal, there are good reasons why fans might not care much for Legend of Korra; indeed there are ATLA fans who haven’t even watched LoK. The other pairing is from a spin-off novel series about an important minor character, which hasn’t received anywhere near the publicity as ATLA or LoK. Again, I adore Rangi/Kyoshi, but we should be realistic about how much we expect casual viewers to read a spin-off novel series and how much attention it should garner without its own TV series. To some extent we need to be realistic – why should we expect people who are fans of ATLA, and only ATLA, to give as much attention to ships that are not part of ATLA?

I’ve also seen some posts that question why people don’t find the canonical m/f relationships appealing, and urge people to reconsider them, often stating gay =/= better, or more politically correct. While it’s true that liking ships absolutely should not be a measurement of how progressive you are, I find this perspective fails to recognise that there are actual genuine critiques that you could level at kataang, sukka, and maiko respectively? In each case you could make an argument for lack of development, that these relationships tend to centre the male character and their feelings? There are genuine reasons why viewers might be put off by these dynamics (in fact, there is no obligation for them to care, there never is), and I think we shouldn’t overcorrect and ignore the flaws in the dynamics’ canonical depiction that people might take issue with. I am also skeptical of the implication offered by this line of critique, where these canonical m/f relationships are all more politically correct – even if that’s true, I really don’t think that a lone is a good reason why people should be more invested in them (especially if the viewer finds their dynamic otherwise uncompelling flat etc.). We shouldn’t confuse shipping children’s TV characters with activism; taking an anti-imperialist, anti-racist, and feminist approach to media is more to do with accountability than activism and about ensuring fandom cultures do not only only cater to white cishet men.

The last argument I’ve seen recently has been to do with the fact that mailee shouldn’t be compared too closely with zukka – agreed, in that they’re very different dynamics, and again, I can understand the frustration there. But mailee is not “more canonical” than zukka simply because the former were childhood friends. Firstly, neither of these relationships are canonical (may I remind you that Mai ends up with Zuko). Furthermore, there also no firm, rock solid, near indisputable evidence that Mai and Ty lee always cared for each other more deeply or fully than Azula; there is no firm, rock solid, near indisputable evidence that Mai and Ty lee always knew they were going to betray Azula and were leading her on the whole damn time. This is an interpretation of the text based on some circumstantial evidence and body language. It is a potentially an interesting, compelling interpretation of the text that has some limited evidence suggesting it could be true - but it ultimately relies on conjecture and extrapolation. It is not canon. There is also space for an interpretation of the text where Mai and Ty Lee never particularly liked each other or understood each other, and largely tried to get along for Azula’s sake. We should be careful to ensure that we don’t treat our headcanons as if they are ironclad canonical fact. There is space for a variety of interpretations of Mai and Ty Lee’s dynamic and to call it “more canonical” presents an interpretation of mailee as fact in a way I think not only is just kidding ourselves / exaggerating what we saw on screen, but also I think doesn’t allow for alternate interpretations that more broadly, impacts fandom negatively.

Like, ultimately I feel that all of these arguments are flawed, but also I think they miss the point! None of these things have much to do with zukka’s sudden popularity or why a lot of interpretations of zukka delve into racist fetishisation and mlm fetishisation. If you want to criticise zukka and its sudden rise in popularity, talk about the key factors at play. Talk about how migratory shippers latch on to new fandoms without much care for the context and detail of the source text, treating characters like blank slates they can attach tropes to without regard to their actual characterisation, either latching onto white characters no matter how minor their role is, or, as in the case of atla, either erasing & “whitening” the cultural background of the characters or just perpetuating racist perspectives.

We could also talk about how there is not much space or resources in fandom in general for wlw ships and discussions and spaces. We could talk about how women are more willing to work with and interpret male characters than vice versa, in part due to the lack of interiority and complexity often given to female characters in children’s animation historically but also due to misogyny and the male audience’s unwillingness to treat women like people even when presented with complex and layered female characters. We could also talk about the history of whiteness in fandom and how the source text was written by white american men and is a limited western interpretation of asian cultures and how that impacts the fandom and the reception and treatment of said cultures.

Like. I think there are more important factors at play and we shouldn’t make these flawed arguments simply out of frustration that what we care about and what we’re passionate about isn’t getting the reception we think it deserves. Because I get most of this, most of these arguments are borne out of frustration, but we shouldn’t exaggerate, mistate the case, or leave no room for critique.

#long post #i have no idea how to tag this #this is probably fandom wank ?#but i fucking hate that term it's so 00s livejournal #anyway i'm just frustrated by seeing these arguments

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ravenhilarious · 4 years

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sometimes I fear that Logan is becoming the Hermione of this fandom

elaboration under the cut. this will discuss the Harry Potter fandom, the sanders sides fandom, and some comparisons of my personal issues within them. there are some mentions of violence, abuse, bigotry, and death, and it is very long.

that’s what they said

disclaimer: I love Harry Potter even if jk is a bigot, I love Hermione, I love sanders sides which fortunately is not created by a bigot, I love Logan, so there’s no intended negativity about any of these

now, back to the point. I repeat: I fear that Logan is becoming the Hermione of this fandom

which should be a good thing, because I love Logan and I love Hermione. being “the Hermione” shouldn’t be seen as something negative, but the reason I'm referring to it as that is:

there was a time where Fanon Hermione basically became, for a lack of a better term, a Mary Sue (I know this term can have problematic and misogynistic elements but I couldn’t find a better way to describe it)

lots of it was based on the movie adaption’s version of her. lots of her flaws were either stripped away or justified – she became more fearless and confident, her condescending attitude towards mainly Harry and (especially) Ron was exaggerated, and, again, seemed more justified here. and of course, it didn’t help that she was played by the gorgeous Emma Watson.

then came the fandom portrayal of her. while her movie counterpart was definitely more “perfectilized” (is that a word? now it is) than her book counterpart, she still had elements of being a teenager, and, well, a human. but on the internet, there were so many claims of her being the sole reason that Harry was alive, and that she was way out of Ron’s league, and lots of other stuff. if you’re in any way familiar with the Harry Potter fandom around... well, anywhere before like 2016, really, you probably know what I'm talking about. she was basically this “perfect does everything right keeps saying everyone the best at everything” kind of character. that was kinda annoying, both to people who didn’t care that much for Hermione as a character in the first place, and for the people who enjoyed her (more flawed and realistic) book counterpart

and don’t even get me started on the dr4m10ne shippers who claimed that “she deserves better than Ron (or Harry, or Neville, [heteronormativity was still a big thing back then] or really anyone who treated her with respect) and dr4c0 would be so much better for her!”

and oof, the “Hermione joins the dark side” au’s where her actions were still justified by the narratives (why would a muggleborn join the people that discriminate against her lol)

during the last few years, she’s gotten some backlash because of this. more potter heads started realizing her flaws, or stopped justifying them. the shocking realization that the fan favorite was not perfect made a large part of the fandom go in the opposite direction. which I understand.

now, I am still able to enjoy the (canon) character Hermione Granger, despite the sue-ification she went through (maybe it’s the autism that helps me not to get so affected by public opinion, idk), but not everyone is that lucky. so many potter heads had gotten a very good character ruined for them, which is sad.

I don’t want the same thing to happen to Logan Sanders.

Now, he wasn’t always one of the faves – in an early episode, he literally gets told that he’s the least popular character in the series (which does get played off as a joke, but I assume – I wasn’t in the fandom back then, so please correct me if I'm wrong – that for many fanders back then, that was very much the case) and I wouldn’t say he’s a “fan favorite” the same way that Hermione used to be.

however, he has by now gained quite a large fanbase here on Tumblr. which is great! I, myself, really enjoy Logan, and most of his fans are really cool.

but there are some stans who, in my opinion, have started to give him The Hermione Treatment. who claim that he is the one constantly helping Thomas. who feel the need to bash some of the other sides in order to prove that Logan is the best. the main complaint being that “they ignore/silence him too much”. and yes, they definitely don’t listen to him nearly as much as they could and should. I agree with that.

what I don’t agree with is when fanders start wishing for him to “snap” at the others. I'm putting “snap” in quotation marks, because what they usually mean is just him straight up verbally abusing them, sometimes being physically violent toward them. all because they... didn’t pay enough attention to him?

it gives me the same vibes as when Hermione’s acts of violence (I'm talking about, like, the bird attack toward Ron or the acne scars she forced on Marietta Edgecombe [another thing that got removed in the movie adaption], not the “fighting death eaters” parts) were considered “girl power” or something by the internet.

now, I'm not saying that Logan in canon is super aggressive and violent, but he definitely has his moments – and that’s fine. a character does not have to be nice 24/7. but the fandom seems to, idk, romanticize (for lack of a better word) these moments, his outbursts of anger and violence, both the canon and Fanon ones.

furthermore, there seems to be a double standard, in that lots of the things he’s praised for or that gets ignored about him, are the exact same things that would (or do) get criticized when other sides do it.

Patton gets flack for being controlling and guilt-tripping the others, which, yes, that is true, but Logan can also be controlling (Growing Up, Why Do We Get Out Of Bed In The Morning, arguably in Moving On too) and guilt-tripping (”not that any of you care, but I am unharmed” in Putting Others First)

Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that fanders have started seeing the less perfect aspects of morality. Even cinnamon rolls can do not so nice things at times.

Roman is considered to be too proud and condescending, and yeah, he is, he is literally Thomas’ ego. But Logan? “I know I'm smarter than everyone else”? nuff said.

Virgil gets criticized for being too aggressive, and boy is that true, but again, you can not bash one character for a trait that you praise (or even wish more of) in another character.

now, I know that there are fanders who also give Virgil a free pass for violence etc. (he was the ultimate Fan Favorite for a very long time), but they seem to be fewer today than they used to be – which is great! it’s just sad that instead of disappearing completely, this character treatment has now moved towards Logan.

(funnily enough, these certain Logan Stans tend to be less critical of Janus’ and Remus’ flaws too, which I will cover later on)

no, I do not want Logan to be flawless, just like I don’t want Hermione to be. I just wish this double standard wasn’t so common in the fandom.

unlike with Hermione, however, the narrative (and the writers) doesn’t seem to favor him over the others – the sides get a relatively equal treatment in that way. but the biggest problem with Hermione was not the writing, or even the movie adaption (though that definitely played a factor too), but rather the fandom. the fandom was the one who claimed Hermione to be some perfect goddess, talented in every way, too good for this world, etc. And I really don’t want this to happen with Logan!

another parallel I'll bring up is the “going dark” thing, more specifically, “going dark because the light is not good enough for me”. I mentioned dr4m10ne earlier, and Hermione joining the death eaters because Harry and Ron and the rest of the “good guys” weren’t good enough. not smart or talented enough. didn’t appreciate her enough. because Ron would at times make fun of her nerdiness, because they sometimes bickered.

but for some reason, these dr4m10ne shippers and dark!Hermione Stans would gloss over the fact that Dr4c0 made fun of her heritage and that the death eaters literally fought for genocide of people like her (which, imo, is a bit more serious than “haha ur a nerd”)

similarly, it’s become common to head canon Logan “becoming a dark side”. now, I am in no way trying to imply that “the dark sides” are in any way similar to death eaters, or that Janus and Remus are anything like Dr4c0.

but there seems to be, yet again, a double standard. Patton, Roman, and Virgil ignore or silence or under appreciate Logan? oh yes, they definitely do.

but so do Janus and Remus. I see so many au’s of Logan joining the “dark sides” because they are more likely to listen to and appreciate him, which, if we go by canon... is not true? Janus literally excluded Logan from the courtroom, and Remus has repeatedly threatened and physically harmed Logan because he didn’t like what he was saying. but people gloss over that because ?????

I don’t really have a conclusion or anything, I just wanted to get this out

#sanders sides #logan sanders #Hermione Granger #logan Hermione parallels #fandom criticism #raven rants #abuse mention #violence mention #death mention #bigotry mention #genocide mention #anti dramione #tagging it just in case #there is so much I rant about in this post #I should probably make separate posts for some of the points #long post

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nmoroder · 4 years

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L4D(2) Actor AU

This is a (not complete) list of headcanons for the Actor AU me and my bro came up with during our Expert runs and running extremely low on morale. We created this as a sort of ‘happy’ AU which would also give some room to our own ideas, so some of this stuff below may only slightly be related to original. We understand.

This post won’t be updated but instead followed by other ones if something else arises, so check ‘l4d actor au’ tag on my blog for more!

Overall setting

The Left 4 Dead universe itself is a series of 90-min movies divided into first and second season, L4D1 and L4D2 respectively. This list will further refer to them as S1 and S2;

L4D is a series about, of course, zombie apocalypse, but teamwork and forming bonds between people are brought to spotlight. Both seasons consist of episodes where four Survivors try to find a solid ground and safety with every episode ending on a cheerful note but every next one starting with the cheerfulness destroyed. The episodes share their names and events with Campaigns;

Originally, L4D was created by a team of enthusiasts, consisting of friends, families and family friends, so they are all very immersed in process and really giving their best. Their collective is also the reason their funding isn’t very high and they’re mostly using their own equipment and props; this makes the series look less expensive and polished but retains the atmosphere and the main goal: to show people growing warmer to each other and learning to stick together;

The actors’ names are mostly created by combining the face model’s first name and the voice actor’s last name, though some other versions do take place (see S1 and S2);

The safehouse graffitis are inspired by the fans’ responses from forums and contests, so it’s some sort of communicating with audience through screenplay;

The Third Strike, more commonly known as Black and White Mode which occures after second incapacitation, was firstly discovered as a camera malfunction but then the team liked it so much that they decided to leave it as a feature and add the heartbeat effect and stuff;

Main plot line consists solely of canon Campaigns (that means it doesn’t include Last Stand and Cold Stream) but there were also suggestions to shot additional episodes - the Mutations. After S1 success, the authors posted their ideas on different ‘modes’ and fans added theirs as well and thus during S2 some more episodes were made using, for example, a male synchronized swimming team to create the Hunting Party mutation. The original Hunter actor also participated and the swimmers required to copy his behavior; they did it so well that sometimes the whole Survivor team was being overwhelmed once they began the take;

There are no stuntmen on board so every fighting scene is shot with original actors. When it requires to shove someone off with a weapon (e.g. Zoey shoving a Hunter off Louis in the L4D1 intro), after the take actors always ask each other whether they hit too hard, should they improve the movements etc. Different actors have different range so it’s a tricky thing to cooperate but they still manage (I’ll come back to this topic in L4D2 section);

Most Infected, especially Special Infected encounters are improvised, bringing more life and realism to the Survivors’ response. The Hunter is responsible for a fair share of their shock as they noticed him stuck at a saferoom ceiling only after a while (this is a reference to the glitches that allow the Hunter to get stuck under the roof in Versus);

There was a suggestion to run a Kickstarter campaign to gather money for a fanservice episode especially for shippers. While it was most likely a joke from actors who didn’t mind shipping, it’s still a suggestion and not in work.

L4D (Season 1)

Zoey shares the zombie movie obsession with her actress; Sonja was the most familiar with the topic among original team and provided a lot of help with setting up the scene, behaviour writing etc. Along with Louis and Boomer actors, she was the creator of original idea and can consider herself a founder of the series. She is also older than Zoey as a character, being already in her 25s while Zoey is a college student;

The original Boomer actor was a CGI specialist and offered his skills for post-processing while also playing an Infected role. He came up with the idea of a Boomer Infected himself and suggested his large physique to do the role with a little touch of computer graphics and makeup;

While discussing the major characters and personalities worth including, Zoey’s actress instantly remembered her neighbor, the big buffy tattooed guy who was her childhood friend, worked as a driver and spent his weekends with his favorite bike. She figured that it’s a nice image to have in a zombie apocalypse setting, and thus Francis’ actor made it to the set;

When it came to the image of a war veteran refusing to give in to monsters, Zoey’s actress was also the one to suggest another person to fill up the space: her father. He was younger than Bill was written to be but did the impersonating well. He’s got an overall friendly but bickering attitude towards Francis’ actor so most of lines written for Bill and Francis interaction were the ones actors remembered from their own conversations, slightly exaggerated;

Zoey’s actress and Louis’ actor were co-workers for several years and bonded over their mutual interest to zombie theme and shooting. She foud out that Sean attended a shooting range in his spare time and asked him to take her out too; thus she both found out he aces in ambidextrous shooting and got him to teach her how to wield a hunting rifle. The weapon preferences were carried over to respective characters;

Hunter’s actor became a surprise for the team as Francis’ actor brought him over saying that the guy’s got a fantastic voice (and a music band) and physique to make some badass new Infected for them. They got him to voice the crowd extras of common Infected but also came up with an idea of shrieking hooded parkour bastard to rip someone’s guts out, thus creating the Hunter as another Special Infected;

As the next Special Infected concept came out of the shadows - a lanky coughing tongue-twisting zombie who would grab the Survivors and restrict them, Hunter’s actor brought another person to the set. It was his music band co-participant who did drums and back vocals and also had an ability to eject the most horrible coughing sound out of his throat while being (seemingly) healthy. He took over the role of a Smoker;

Hunter’s actor is named Mike after Mike Patton, the voice actor for Infected and SI like Hunter and Smoker. Smoker’s actor is named Mike too but the fact that he plays drums and does back vocals is actually a reference to Faith No More, the band where Patton actually does vocals and Mike Bordin does what Smoker’s actor does. It sounds complicated but originally the idea of Hunter and Smoker actors sharing a name came from Patton voicing them both, and then I found out about the band and two Mikes present so... that was a weird but happy coincidence;

The fact stated above was the reason the team came up with nicknames just for two Mikes on the set - Hoodie and Tongue respectively. The tradition was carried over to S2 where the new Hunter actor would receive a patronizing nickname Kid from Survivors (see S2)

Of all Infected actors, Hunter’s actor was the least level-headed and even Francis’ actor sometimes doubted his past decision to bring him in. Nevertheless, Hoodie’s cheerful attitude and energy helped the collective stay positive and fuelled during especially hard days. It also brought out the less lethargic and melancholic part of Tongue and made him more lively about things;

Despite Hoodie being the Endless Energy Core which people tended to adore, he was still in a lousy relationship with Witch’s actress (her name, by the way, is different from the voice actress - it’s Rose). He kept a charmer’s attitude towards her even though she was a married woman; Rose tended to be neutral or mostly positive towards most colleagues but this behavior pissed her off big time, leading to Hoodie being injured by her stage costume claws after she punched him in the face for a really bad dating joke. Hoodie toned it down afterwards but their relationship didn’t improve much up until the end;

Witch’s actress is keen on baking and sometimes brings some to the filming set;

Since the budget was comparatively low, the team couldn’t afford a lot of crowd extras so they hired a group of people to then create an image of a Horde attacking by using CGI. That’s why there’s so much repeating common Infected on-screen;

The first season included all L4D1 original Campaigns, leaving The Sacrifice out as it was added later in a DLC. As S2 came into development stage, the team wanted to add an episode with the old Survivors team but Bill’s actor was unavailable at the time and was overall not hot with the idea of shooting movies anymore; so eventually they plotted the episode (The Passing campaign) to feature Bill being dead. The fans were shocked to find it out and demanded to know what exactly happened, thus leading to actually shooting The Sacrifice as a bonus episode to S1 (and requiring Bill’s actor to come back despite his attitude).

L4D2 (Season 2)

The collective decided to take a sharp turn on the new Survivors and create them being unacquainted and sort of separated at the start but growing closer as time passes by. The idea of S1 Survivors being almost a family to each other sounded great and played along just right but the team wanted to delve deeper into relationship problems and also have a change of scenery - and so they did;

The Infected team for S2 still consisted of some old faces (Boomer, Tank and Witch) but some had to leave the set for the time being and were unable to rehearse the roles, this being Hunter and Smoker actors. They got into music harder than zombie movies and planned to go on a tour so they could only leave their old Infected sounds as a legacy;

The new Smoker actor was a treasure Coach’s actor brought to the set. Since Coach was in fact a college coach, he kept a close eye on some problematic students under his wing and picked out the one he’d considered perfect and at the same time worth looking after. The guy was recovering from compulsory drug treatment and had some ugly scars all over his arms, making him an easier candidate for makeup;

Hoodie, on his part, brought a replacement on his own, and it was his brother - four years younger, even more insanely into parkour and a huge fan of L4D series, he made a perfect new Hunter. Despite being only a few years younger than Hoodie, he instantly became treated like a restless constant-questioner child, a literal piece of sunshine on the set, so the team came to call him just Kid. He adjusted to the nickname after a couple of weeks, though being seriously surprised at it at the start;

The actors of Ellis, Jockey and Charger all come from one family, being two sons and a father. Coach suggested the family as well, being their close friend for many years and pointing out Ellis’ actor appearance being something close to the laid-back mechanic they wanted for the new Survivors team;

Although fluently speaking in a Southern accent, Ellis’ actor isn’t very fond of it as he tried to get rid of it and move to a different state; the role obliged him to use the accent again though and it wasn’t hard to recreate, but he still didn’t take pride in it and was mostly annoyed with it and Nick’s jokes written in script;

Ellis’ actor is also the one more frequently complaining about amount of money the actors receive for their work on set. Their funding increased a bit since S1′s popularity strike but still;

Most of Ellis’ stories were written based on actual on-set incidents, usually featuring Nick’s actor (see below);

Nick’s actor, Taymour, is married to Witch’s actress and is a big fan of her performance in S1. When she heard the idea of having a snarky self-centered ladies’ man in the new Survivors team, she immediately knew who’d handle the role at his best. She also rehearsed the role of Witch just to make sure nothing bad happens to her husband on-set (also see below);

Nick’s actor suffers from constant bad luck incidents. He can accidentally break or twist something without serious effort; he’s also allergic to artificial blood and he is the reason the filming set actually features painkillers and functioning adrenaline shots. Despite all that, he’s got a positive attitude about bad luck and got used to being in a state of constant non-obvious danger, unlike others who geniunely worry about his well-being and fear that one day an accidental injury might end him once and for all;

This trait is also the reason Nick’s line “Can’t you see I’m limping here?” made it into the script - it was improvised after Nick’s actor badly hit his leg and was the last to make it to a saferoom during a take. The team liked it and decided to leave it in;

Nick’s actor treats his role with all respect and doesn’t consider it a small one despite the not so large fee. He’s also a complete opposite to the character, being a very friendly and kind-hearted guy to everyone on set; he can however switch back to his script personality with startling speed and it scared some of the new actors at first. Despite playing an asshole which is very different from real him, Nick’s actor enjoys it a lot and overall finds great joy in working with the team and bringing them together;

Bringing back the topic of being gentle to each other, Nick’s actor takes great care when it’s required to hit or shove someone in the take, keeping it mildest possible, unlike for example Ellis’ actor who can smash you in the face without a second thought;

Nick’s actor and Witch’s actress keep their loving attitude on set as well, sometimes making it hard to shoot scenes featuring a Witch killing; as they were shooting the Witch Bride scene where the same actress took place but had a different outfit and makeup, they ruined several takes by driving the dialogue in unwanted directions, e.g. “Ellis, go kiss the bride! No wait, I’ll do that myself” or “N: Sounds like my ex-wife... W: I still AM your wife, darling! >:C”;

With her husband on stage, Witch’s actress is probably closest to her role - she will tear apart anyone who dares to hit on Nick’s actor or mean any harm to him (as if his own harming isn’t enough...). The only one she’d go loose is Ellis’ actor, being an old close friend;

Ellis’ actor was the one who introduced Nick’s actor to his future wife. They’ve actually been close friends since the university and Ellis’ actor was among those who obviously saw Nick’s actor and Rose being in love but completely oblivious to it. Ellis’ actor is still kinda jealous that she took his best friend away and they can’t hang out anymore like they used to, but they get quite a lot of time on set so he’s less irritated about that;

Nick’s actor is especially supportive towards Rochelle’s actress, Shanola. She feels self-conscious because of her character’s rating being lower than expected and blames it on her performance, but Taymour keeps reassuring her that she’s doing amazing. Rochelle’s actress is also the one least accustomed to shooting a weapon and handling violence of any kind so it was hard for her to get her head into action. With the team fully supporting her, the progress sped up tremendously;

Ellis’ actor’s name is Jesy and he gets salty about people misspelling it or mistaking it for a female name. It was the inspiration to include the “El kinda sounds like a girl’s name” part of Ellis’ dialogue;

The team is overall friendly towards shipping dynamics in the series’ fandom, with the only one explicitly stating otherwise being Ellis’ actor. He’s espeicially upset with Nellis ship as people started shipping actors over it too; he stated multiple times that he and Nick’s actor have been best friends for so long that it’s simply wrong to imply any romantic and/or sexual relationship between them. He once stated in an interview that he’d rather believe an Ellis/Hunter ship and the fandom exploded with it on the next day, much to the actor’s chagrin. The Hunter’s actor, or Kid, however, wasn’t that upset and supported the idea. The team made no confirmation to any ships yet;

Nick’s actor is neutral to most ships including Nellis and doesn’t see why his friend is so angry about it. His personal favorites are Nick/Witch for obvious reasons and Nick/Hunter for less obvious reasons that he doesn’t state. He jokingly suggests Jesy from time to time to start a Kickstarter campaign for a Nellis-centered episode; it’s still unknown whether they’ll take it serious one day.

#left 4 dead #left 4 dead 2 #l4d #l4d2 #actor au #au #l4d actor au #longpost #morodertalks

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aphreni · 4 years

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Controversial Hetalia Meme Ask

Since I don't get asks I'm just gonna offer my opinion out there lol

Do you consider the 2Ps to be insane or no?

Oh yes definitely. I know some fans are against the idea of insane 2P characters but I've been on board with it since I've first discovered it. When it comes to 2P!, I don't think these Hetalia characters exist in the same world/dimension. That's why when fans ask "oh what does 1P!America think of 2P!America," I don't even think exist in the same verse.

Opinions on HRE?

I was never into chibitalia and HRE but one things certain, I truthfully believe Germany is HRE.

What do you consider a big no-no in the fandom?

France is a r*pist and Spain is a p*do really bothered me. Fans don't realize how hard it is for France to be such a passionate, loving nation only to live for so long without having an s/o to grow old with. Spain loves children I believe so I feel he'd be so disheartend to hear fans think of him that way.

Thoughts on Seychelles?

I'll say this, Seychelles was a way for Hima to embody Hetalia fangirls and in the end she was crucified by the same fans who felt she was a threat to their ships. Think about it, Seychelles is cheerful, and shy which I know very well many fangirls act the same way. She was even the main character of Gauken Hetalia which was Hima's way to put us in her place, like we were part of the hetaliaverse. Maybe this is a western fans perspective but the way she was treated was horrible. She deserves so much better...

Thoughts on any of the Hetalia girls?

They obviously don't get enough screen time and if there was a movie about them, I would support it. But let's be honest, Hetalia is fan service and Hima isn’t obligated to showcase diversity compared to western creators. I really like Taiwan and Seychelles because I think they're like me!

Do you think the Nyos are offensive?

I would be perfectly fine with the Nyos if it wasn't for their skimpy clothes. As soldiers, I thought it'd be cool to see them in proper uniforms but they weren't :( But like I said, fanservice, you've got to cater to the crowd.

Thoughts on controversial ships? (i.e: UsUk, Spamano, Itacest, etc.)

I've never been a shipper tbh because I'm more of a historical hetalia fan. I've never liked USUK or Spamano because I feel these characters grew up like brothers. Especially Spamano, I don't feel right thinking Spain sees Romano in a romantic way after taking care of him as a young boy. Itacest, Germancest, and AmeCan is a big no no for me. It makes me uncomfortable tbh.

Do you think the fandom is toxic?

Every fandom is toxic but Hetalia got so bad at one point and now I think it won't go back to that unless there is a huge revival (ex. new season/movie). Idk if I'm a new side of the fandom but I really like the historical hetalia side because they are all educated, exciting and go past the two-dimensional character personalities.

What do you think makes a "bad ship"?

I can't really imagine a bad ship because if you love two characters seperately and think they will get along, it's up to you. Like Prussia and South Korea? I would never imagine an interaction between the two but I think they would be fun together.

Thoughts on cosplays using historical taboo outfits? (i.e: Germany as a Nazi, etc.)

Ugh, this was such an issue in the fandom and I agree, it's horrible. I honestly don't understand why they would do that in the first place because Hetalia disregards the connection between Germany and the nazi government.

Thoughts on political fanart?

I think depictions of war are okay but it's a big no no to do recent events or Germany or Prussia in concentration camps.

Thoughts on cosplayers cosplaying as a character of a different nationality/race?

As long as their not doing blackface, or yellowface it should be fine in my opinion. I don't really care about cosplay.

How do you feel about younger people in the fandom?

I joined the fandom when I was like 12? My advice is always be weary about who you interact with in the fandom. Some fans may not realize what they spout...

Do you think certain ships are canon/will become canon?

No not at all, I think Hima is good at teasing tho. I think everyone agrees GerIta is mostly canon but Hima won't outright admit it. Example would be Buon San Valentino because he dropped so many hints but it wasn't "exactly" a canon relationship. It'll stay that way unless two countries unite together like AusHun.

Do you think Hetalia is taken too seriously?

When people talk about how it's propoganda and racist (pfft) definitely yes. People tend to forget this show is based off of Japanese stereotypes and not every show is westernized. If it was really racist, each character would be horribly called out on a past event or their physcial appearances are exaggerated. Their flaws are something we point out and laugh about because, yes, Americans really are too loud and friendly. See? Harmless.

Thoughts on headcanons about a character that defies canon? (i.e; changing a character's gender, race, etc.)

I can't think of an example of this but I always strictly follow canon.

Thoughts on straight ships?

Again, I'm not a shipper but I do like PruHun to an extent. I wish I had an idiot like Prussia lol

What ships do you consider abusive?

Again, I don't pay attention to ships.

Do you think a blogger should have to Trigger Tag a ship or character?

That sounds a little ridiculous because I don't consider any ships or characters triggering tbh. If someone did, then I’m sorry i have too many posts to go back and tag everything.

What ships do you consider toxic?

N/A

Do you think any characters are/will be canonly LGBT?

Oh yes definitely! But they have to be picky-choosy with which era they choose to be open about it. You cannot tell me Spain was openly gay for most of the middle ages under the Catholic church. In modern time, it's no big deal so I see them willingly going out and flirting or crushing on all genders. Then, I also see Prussia (who is former Teutonic Knight) who had a promise with God about virginity. I think his mindset and values are the same so he rarely gets involved with anyone. It happens every century or so?

Do you think Hetalia sugar coats/numbs actual historical events?

If Hetalia didn't sugar coat historical events, it wouldn't be a cutesy anime. They have to sugarcoat as to not offend anyone and because the nature of the show is purely comedy. There have been numb moments in the show like all of Davie but that's to show a deeper perspective that nations face as immortals.

How do you feel about Mafia AUs?

I used to really like them, but realized it's the same thing as cartels and gangs. If someone did a cartel AU for all the latin countries I would raise hell, so I imagine Italian fans feeling the same way. Idk I'm still deciding on it...

How do you feel about WWII AUs?

Being a historical hetalia fan I actually really like it. Of course if it's done in a respectful manner. I like hearing about fighter pilot America and sniper Russia. I like to hear about how Prussia was treated like shit because he wasn't the ideal blonde hair, blue eyes like his brother. I like to hear France and England having to team up despite not liking eachother and how devastated England was when France fell to Germany. I also like to hear about Denmark protecting all the Danish jews and defying against Germany. I like to hear the amounting pressure Japan must've felt having to please his boss while backstabbing China and Korea, the people he loves dearly as family, at the same time. So yes, I do like WWII AUs but I'm happy Hima has strayed away from that topic. It's not everyone's cup of tea...

#controversial hetalia

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fandomele · 4 years

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Same anon here & holy shit I didn't know the SC fandom got that awful. As a rule I tend to stay in my lane and read fanfics about my fav ships so I don't go to Twitter often for content. Fans can be very hypocritical & I think it's b/c people feel the need to justify liking things so much now that they bend over backwards to seem in the right. The Joker is one of my all time fav villains but I'm not gonna pretend he isn't terrible just so people won't judge me for liking a fictional character

yeah, I mean... I have shipped things that weren’t exactly completely healthy for the characters or super progressive or whatever simply because I liked them (while being like “it’s fine if you don’t like it, but I interpret it this way and I can see how it could become healthy if this and that happened, and with therapy, and I like their general interactions so I can also imagine aus where the bad things didn’t happen”). It’s a matter of tastes. And sometimes I do interpret a character in a very nice way and other people hate the same character, that’s fine too, and we can argue whether that character is good or bad or what. Sometimes I will ship the white, straight couple even when given different options if I like their dynamic, I shipped Willow and Oz from Buffy more than I shipped Willow and Tara. Both canon romances but because Willow and Tara were both sweet together, until it got darker, it was more boring to me than Oz, who was so funny. Simple as that. Legends of Tomorrow? Sara and Ava kinda disliked each other, then flirted and bantered and I was sold. It’s all about personality, I won’t automatically ship something based on gender. But I also won’t claim that I ship Sara and Ava because of wlw representation and shipping something else is homophobic, or that my ships are morally superior and all that. (Though I do feel happy even just when couples that involve minorities exist, because people need that, and give ‘points’ to show who have them. The two things can co-exist)It’s just way different from saying ‘I ship this because -representation- and it’s perfect and healthy and must happen, and if you don’t ship it you are racist/homophobic/misogynistic and evil, and this show is queerbaiting us because... one character cares for the other and the actresses sometimes glance at each other’s lips much like the rest of the population does while talking’. Not to mention how much some of those fans confuse characters with actors and straight up torment real people over their jobs until they get blocked, and then use it as proof that they are bad people. How you behave with other real people really determines if you are a decent person or not, it’s not which character you like that does it. Or even why.

But then, most of these fans were in the Emma x Regina fandom in once upon a time. They are fans who, beside bullying everybody else while claiming to be the victim, did things such as accusing Jennifer Morrison of supporting rape culture because Jen was happy that fans of her canon ship, Emma x Hook, had made a tea dedicated to it. That level of detachment from reality and entitlement. And they kept getting angrier, getting more people into their group while feeding them their teachings and expecting them to be as angry, and inviting them to be, and attracting other people who felt that way and who made it even worse, and then they all moved to a new fandom, supergirl, where they picked a kinda similar couple, Kara and Lena, and from the beginning were as obsessed and demanding as they were by the end of once upon a time, and from there it kept escalating too, exactly because that’s how group dynamic works. They have reached incredibly unacceptable levels and some day, when supergirl is over, they’ll migrate to a new show where they will start attacking everyone and invading all tags to ‘conquer’ the fandom and fight all those ‘bad shippers’ who ship other ships and must be ‘taught’ that they are immoral for it, and escalate from there as well. It’s a cycle, it just happens that it always gets more extreme as time goes by and more people join in. And the poor normal fans of the same thing are either forced to adapt, to hide, or to stay very far away so they won’t be confused with them.

And yes, some fans did brag, years ago, about how they were teaching karamel fans a lesson because we were mysoginistic, supporting rape culture, racist and homophobic and abuse apologists for shipping Kara and Mon El, and by posting anti-karamel in all tags and pro-supercorp as well, they were effectively ruining the chance for fans to 1 enjoy the show 2 enjoy their tumblr time 3 find other fans who liked the same things and 4, in the case of young impressionable fans, they made them wonder if they were doing something bad by shipping Kara and Mon El and be ashamed of themselves.So in the end Karamel fans became quieter, didn’t post in the karamel tag because you wouldn’t scroll down to find posts there if you had to scroll down hundreds of anti ones, you’d just get in a bad mood, and only talked to their close friends and mutual followers without tagging, while those supercorpers had ‘won’ the tags.

This is just an example too but I have no doubt that they’ll pull the same ‘technique’ in the next fandom, unless it’s big like the ouat one was in which case they’ll get shut down by several groups of people. But if it’s smaller like Supergirl’s? Yeah, they’ll purposefully ruin the tag system and claim to be doing that because of social justice related reasons and then that they are in fact victims and bullied themselves. And at the same time exaggerate their fave characters’ qualities to make them good and pure and a victim so that they can prove they have the moral high ground on that too.

#anti supercorp #anti swan queen #Anonymous #ele answers

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icouldntresistit · 5 years

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Okay so this is going to be long but if you want to discuss Jimin & JK and the fanservice myth, here ya go. If you for whatever reason hate the idea that they don’t seem to be acting when they get all affectionate, please kindly scroll past

I can’t really subscribe to the ‘Heechul kissed his members in the mouth for fanservice, therefore anything Jikook do is fanservice’ idea and here’s why:

1. For some reason there’s this idea that if idols do something and it qualifies as fanservice, it can’t possibly mean anything besides that it is fanservice. This is illogical. I go to work for a check but that doesn’t mean I don’t also enjoy what I do/I don’t do it for any other reason. I think Jimin lingering onto Jungkook for abnormal periods of time can be both fanservice and have an underllying meaning. Just like when Namjoon shouts out Halsey in an interview--he could be doing it for promo but also because he genuinely likes her. It’s just weird to think of fanservice as an either/or when it comes to things like this but not when it comes to BTS constantly talking about how much they “love” armies or when the members act cutesy or sexual for fans. When those types of fanservice happen, it’s then ‘they genuinely love us so much’ or ‘JK truly is Jungoo deep down’, even when it’s clear that JK hates being babied and BTS has to talk about their fans to keep them engaged. (Note: I’m not saying they don’t love armies just that it’s hypocritical to think that particular type of fanservice is genuine but it isn’t if something intimate/romantic happens between members)

2. Typically fanservice is highly exaggerated to the point of being flat out ridiculous. For example, like with how everything is always about armys 24/7 even when it’s clear it’s not (take any given song that is supposedly ‘for armies’, when it likely is just a regular degular song lmao). I’m not saying that fanservice is only exaggerated or that the fanservice can’t be genuine (see point 1), just that most of the time you can tell that it is fanservice because it’s super extra lol. Actually, you can look no further than No More Dream era when Bang PD would all but have Jimin do live strip teases during performances. That is very blatant fanservice, especially when you compare it to other, milder, things they’ve done as fanservice (such as dedicating awards to people). The reason why it’s blatant is because it’s obvious that the sole purpose of him stripping is to get a reaction out of the fans (hence “fan + service”)

With Jimin and JK’s interactions, there’s often no clear motive for the fans. Like, what exactly are we getting out of you staring longingly into Jimin’s soul when you think no one’s looking? Especially when it makes more sense to act lovey-dovey with Tae, the person you’ve always been ‘shipped’ with and has probably the highest amount of shippers who’ll latch onto many things as ‘proof’? When you combine the fact that most fans would get absolutely nothing out of the type of ‘fanservice’ Jikook engage in, the ‘everything is fanservice’ theory loses its legs a bit

3. Just because Heechul did it, doesn’t mean JK would just do something like that as fanservice. BTS as a whole is very anti- disingenuous overly romantic fanservice. Any challenge where they have to be physically intimate with another member is usually met with visible repulsion. This is very different from some other idol groups (such as SuJu lol) that are known for that brand of fanservice. That’s not to say that BTS doesn’t do romantic fanservice at all, just that it’s pretty rare and not that affectionate just for jokes

4. Pretty sure that spending time together outside of work, with no cameras involved, and no apparent career-related motive doesn’t count as fanservice. This is probably the main thing that makes me the most suspicious about the nature of Jikook’s relationship as the other members seem to pretty much go their separate ways when they’re not working. But Jimin and JK go ice skating together, go out to restaurants and movie theaters together, hang out backstage together, travel together (particularly when they go back home), they also travel together by car, spend time in each other’s rooms when staying at hotels, etc. I just don’t see how any of those things (which, we wouldn’t know about if it weren’t for industry people, sasaengs, and the occasional fan who just so happens to run into them) count as fanservice. If anything, it gives the actual fanservice new light and makes it seem as if there’s more to it

So yeah, tldr: not everything is fanservice; for the stuff that is, it could still be genuine on some level; fanservice tends to be very overt so if you can’t tell whether or not it’s fanservice, it’s probably not

#jikook #kookmin #fanservice #i'm now calling this the heechul theory #literally couldn't resist #vminkook

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sxpiosexualx · 6 years

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I heard some s*ns*n shippers complain that their ship didn't happen on the show because D & D cast an actor who's twenty years older that book!S*ndor. But I also heard that GRRM himself approved of this casting choice and when fangirls protested about that in his LJ, he said that S*ndor is a lot older than Sansa in the books too. Could that mean that s*ns*n was never supposed to happen even in the books? What do you think?

Hi anon!

To my understanding, Sandor Clegane is in his late 20′s in the books where Sansa is 11. Sandor is about 5 years younger than Gregor Clegane, and the latter was 17 during the time of Robert’s Rebellion(which took place 15 years before the events of AGOT) when he was knighted. This would make The Hound ~27~ at the beginning of the series. ACOK(2nd book) would have occurred a mere year later making him ~28~ and Sansa ~12~ when the unkiss happened.

Considering the actor was in his late 30′s at the beginning of Game of Thrones I think 20 years is an exaggeration. Most of the characters were portrayed as older than they should be in the show, Ned’s generation especially. Sean Bean(Ned Stark) was in his 50s when they filmed the first season despite Ned being in his mid 30s in AGOT. Similarly, Peter Dinklage was in his 40′s when they started filming despite Tyrion being in his late 20′s and yet the Sanrion marriage was an important enough factor to include - the only difference being they didn’t make the actors undress and thankfully so for Sophie’s sake.

I don’t really get why they would complain considering I was under the impression that some of the sansan shippers claim they ship the older versions of themselves after a reunion where they would both be consenting adults. If that’s the case then an age bump would scarcely make that much of a difference. There are some things the show missed out in terms of how accurately shot the scenes they meant to replicate are, but that applies to the entirety of the show as well. The gist is still there, they wouldn’t have discarded scenes if it was that important in the endgame unless they knew they could afford to not adapt it. But I empathise with the disappointment.

As for whether or not I think Sansan was never supposed to happen in the books… that’s tricky. I never saw The Hound as a suitor for Sansa, he was always more of a character to shake her out of the disillusionment. Are there romantic undertones to him saving her from the mob and his interactions? Sure. But I fail to see GRRM’s romantic intent behind Sansan. So when you ask if I think it was never supposed to happen it’s not a straight answer for me because on one hand, I’m sure everything GRRM put into the books was done so with intent but as for Sansan developing further than what’s established, I see no narrative point.

Whether or not they reunite - which I hope they do too for the heck of it - is another issue but it almost feels as if that would border on fan-service, to have these two characters reunite and realise how much they both have changed. Admiration could of course follow but again, is there room for a Sansan endgame? Considering how important a factor Sansa is being the key to the north, and even if in the books Jon succeeds Robb as his heir, I have a feeling Sansa would still be made to embrace her title as the Lady of Winterfell - bearing importance on her claim once more. Would it be wise for her to enter a marriage with house clegane when she understands the importance and dire need of alliances for the north?

Much as I want Sansa to have agency(which she will, to a degree - much like Lysa Arryn had a choice) in choosing a suitor, I don’t believe she will marry someone solely out of love. Her arc has built her up too much and nailed in herself that her marriage would be done out of duty and the thing is, Sansa herself comes to acknowledge this in ASOS and decides she’ll make it work, “If I give him sons, he may come to love me.” She is content with her role and while the realisation that they want her claim saddened her in the beginning, she chooses to look forward to the life she can build with her future lord husband anyway.

**Similarly, in a case where Jonsa happens - which would, of course, be my preference - Sansa would first and foremost be marrying Jon after parentage reveal for the sake of safeguarding his position over Winterfell and The North, through her claim. This means that it’s a political marriage first before anything, but one exceptionally done out of love. Whether you choose to believe it’s romantic love(which would come at a shock considering they both were not aware of the prospect of a marriage between them until a few moments prior - though if there really was a repression of emotions not deemed appropriate which the books would make clearer, then parentage reveal would give way to catharsis), or a more platonic love that sees her wanting to protect him, love is still involved, and love can come into fruition after.**

In short I don’t see Sansan happening at the end of the series because I think that if Sansa were to survive, she’d have a much bigger role to play especially in the reformation after the war, and if season 7 was any indication to where her arc is headed(and I take this with a grain of salt), then I think we’ll see a better(because of her Vale plot) fleshed out version of this Sansa in the books to follow as well.

That being said, I understand wanting Sansa to ride off into the sunset with a lover of her choice, but that’s not likely to happen. I would remind you however, that with GRRM carving her out to be an unreliable narrator, Sansa seems to rewrite her memories with a romanticised touch - the unkiss being an instance - but this doesn’t mean the interaction between her and The Hound was meant to be taken by the readers that way because we know more accurately what happened. Sansa tends to avoid thinking of certain events and rewrites her memories, and that’s her way of coping with traumatic events whether she acknowledges it or not. GRRM does well in portraying ptsd and the different ways it affects his characters, look to Bran and how he cannot come to terms with his fall and can’t bring himself to piece together how it came about - freezing over and experiencing a knot in his stomach whenever it’s brought up.

I’ll leave you with this wonderful and thought provoking meta @shinynewrevulsions wrote regarding seeing Sandor Clegane and Ser Dontos - along with the other men in her chapters - and what they represent in Sansa’s arc :)

“I’m certain that, after re-reading the Sansa chapters where she interacts with the Hound, he is not supposed to be a character who is meant to be viewed in isolation from the other men in her story. It’s about the Hound and Dontos together, representing two extremes, one cruel and the other foolish. Both are drunks. Both guide Sansa through her journey. Neither are relationship material.”

Thank you for the ask! x

#anti sansan #jonsa #its a notp but i dont have an issue with the shippers whatsoever #i want no beef

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