#sorry grrm i know he’s your character but you’re wrong on this one

[esther-dot]

apologies in advance for the length. like grrm, i need a good editor.

hi there,

i just read your answer to another anon about abuse victims. it was dm’d to me by someone who admired your answer. i admired it too, but i must admit, when you said something along the lines of, "despite their abuse, nothing is going to change the fact that they've done things that make me think badly of them," i let out a huff of exasperation, not directed specifically at you but at the whole situation, because what you said is exactly how i feel about cersei. yet, i've been jumped on, and lectured, and had aspersions cast on my character because i admitted that yes she was abused and it was horrible, but i still hate her for the things she's done and am not interested in feeling sorry for her or talking about her hardships.

i know you truly believe the sansa fandom cares about all abuse victims. i’m a sansa fan myself and i wish i could agree with you. but from what i've seen with my own eyes, time and again, it simply isn't true. i think the sansa and cersei fandoms care about a certain type of abuse victim, specifically "the beautiful woman who's suffered because of the patriarchy." i’m not knocking that in itself; those women are deserving of sympathy and understanding. but it doesn’t change the fact that there are some noteworthy differences in the sympathy extended by cersei fans to cersei, and the lack of sympathy they extend to other types of abuse-victims-turned-villains. (i speak of the sansa fandom and the cersei fandom interchangeably here, not because i think sansa is a villain, but because there's such a huge overlap between the two fandoms; there are exceptions, but for the most part, it's mostly all the same people)

an example: cersei, the beautiful able-bodied woman, can wish rape and torture on the septas who abused her, and that's okay, that's forgivable, yes it was bad but according to her fans they can still enjoy her as a character and feel sympathy for her because the patriarchy has been so, so mean to her. but, according to those same fans, when the disabled man wishes rape on the sister who abused him, well that's beyond the pale, that's repulsive, that's a bridge too far, he's forfeited any right to compassion and they don't care about the abuse he's suffered and neither should anyone else! that’s just one example of many that i could give.

don’t get me wrong, it's very fair to say, "i recognize that tyrion was abused and it's horrible, but i still hate him for what he's done and don't want to talk about his hardships." i feel that way, too. please don’t mistake anything i say here as me being a tyrion fan because hell no lmao. but if you’re going to say that, then you also have to accept that others are going to feel the same way about the villains you do like, and those people shouldn’t be shamed for it or automatically have bad motives assigned to them. not everyone who hates cersei is a misogynist. many of us are simply people who rightly hate cruel, selfish, abusive rapists, which she is, and her sad past doesn’t change how we feel about her.

my point - and i do have one - is that there are huge double standards from all parties involved, and if cersei's fans and defenders truly think they’re not just as guilty as everyone else of being hypocritical, they’re demonstrably wrong. 

i anticipate that there will be many who read my comments and protest "well, this person needs to understand that we're defensive of cersei because she gets so much hate from the fandom" and so i’ll say upfront that, one, i already know and understand that, and two, i still think it's a poor excuse. do you honestly think dany fans aren't defensive of her because of the very vocal, relentless hate she gets from some parts of the fandom? do you think tyrion fans aren't defensive of him because of the ableism he receives? and besides, since when did other people being hypocritical and behaving badly make it okay for us to be hypocritical and behave badly? it doesn't. other people behaving badly doesn’t mean we’re not responsible for controlling our own behavior. we’re not children.

I am so sorry that people hopped on your posts and called you that, anon! I think it’s the nature of the internet that we all feel much freer to be jerks, but the ASOIAF fandom always dials things up to eleven. I understand your frustration that people didn’t give you the benefit of the doubt and try to understand what you were saying. I appreciate the fact that your anger didn’t override all your humor when writing this ask. I did LOL over Martin needing an editor because I have said many times that I wish he’d worked with one he trusted from the beginning so he’d have told them his endgame and they could have helped him prune things before he let certain branches grow out of control. Alas!

I am at a loss as to how to respond to this ask though because while I believe you that individuals have treated you badly, agree that not liking certain villains says nothing about your character and that harassing other fans is wrong, I still strongly disagree with your conclusion about the Sansa fandom.

I understand if this was more of an opportunity to vent your feelings rather than an opening for a conversation, but I went back and forth on posting this at all, because implications of this ask could be so deeply offensive, but I finally decided I would only if I pushed back against some of this. Not with the expectation of changing your mind, I think an experience like yours would prevent anything I can say from altering it, but all the same, I will share my perspective.

Let’s begin where we agree.

it's very fair to say, "i recognize that tyrion was abused and it's horrible, but i still hate him for what he's done and don't want to talk about his hardships." 

This is a good statement. Sansa fans in my corner of the fandom rarely write meta on Tyrion, but I did say this a year ago when asked about our fandom double standard/not being sympathetic/talking about his abuse:

If I ever were to write about Tyrion, I would have to write about the abuse he suffered. Typically, I only mention him when writing about Sansa, so I’m focusing on the threat he is to her/the North, rather than considering his perspective. So, yes, it’s all very one note, but that’s because I’m not even trying to represent his side. And of course, there’s the fact that the fandom as a whole habitually faulted Sansa for not being happy with her fate, rather than acknowledge her perspective. But, I agree that (just as I do for Cersei), we are intended to feel sympathy for him. (link)

So, I feel like you’re trying to argue that my fandom is bad because we don’t do something that I, and several in my circle, have previously said is part of writing about Tyrion. In fact, reading your ask and then my old post, I think I’m probably more sympathetic to him than you are? I don’t judge you for it, I don’t care if you like Tyrion or if you like Cersei, I’m just pointing out that my experience in the Sansa fandom and the conclusions I have come to based on that experience are very different from yours. The linked post was received very well by my circle, so you’re trying to use something against us that has little merit in my eyes.

Martin writes his villains with the intention of explaining why they function as they do rather than leaving them as one-dimensional caricatures. The other day I tried to explain to another anon with similar feelings to yours why it is easier for me (and I’m guessing many Sansa fans) to engage with content sympathetic to Cersei even though we can’t do the same for other villains:

When I think about what I’ve seen written about Cersei and Lysa, it’s  trying to push against the fandom, and even against the author at times,  and say, “these women deserve sympathy too. It doesn’t change who they  are, but their past should allow us to see their humanity.” Sympathy is the end goal. My issue with the fandom at large is that they go further and want to use sympathy  to argue something else, want to move, say, the Hound from one role and  shift him into another. Suddenly, sympathy means pretending he didn’t  assault Sansa, he wasn’t a threat, she didn’t think he might kill her. I  don’t feel like it’s more important to sympathize with Cersei than the  Hound, I just don’t have an issue with sympathizing with her when that’s  all anyone asks, but I do have a problem that half the fandom rewrote who the Hound is because they sympathized.  (link)

It isn’t so much that I care more about pretty women than disfigured men that makes me happily read about Cersei and not other villains (I don’t really write about her either), but that, discussion of her is always with the underlying understanding that she is a villain. However, the Hound, Tyrion, and many other characters are removed from that category by the fandom. To speak of them as such is deemed controversial even though the author himself has designated them as such. I don’t consider this a tit for tat with the rest of the fandom, I try to ignore them, I say this because my fandom and the ASOIAF fandom at large are functioning in two different worlds, doing two totally different things when talking about these characters, in pursuit of two radically different goals.

I can sympathize with villains, that is what I am doing when I talk about Lysa, Cersei etc. The context (our understanding of their roles and what the author is doing with these characters) and the goal of our posts matters, so you can understand why in this fandom, I don’t feel free to engage with Tyrion or Hound sympathetic content because that is typically coming from people who romanticize them and their actions, even assault. We can argue about the wisdom of Martin making Tyrion a villain, but recognizing that I am someone who operates with the understanding that he chose to do that, while the fandom actively denies it, goes a long way in explaining the disparity in treatment you’ve found. And yet, in spite of this disagreement, I don’t harass those fans, that’s a gross thing to do. I simply choose to stay in my own corner and not talk about him except when he comes up in relation to Sansa. If any Sansa fan wants to do more, great! But I’m happy with my choice there.

I don’t remember the specific phrase, but there’s an idea of charitable reading in which, instead of jumping on things and misinterpreting them, we really try to understand what was said and view it in the most sympathetic light possible. That is what my first anon was wishing we would practice more of in regard to the series, and you are asking that we also practice this with our fellow fans. I think you both have a good point, and I will try to do that. I can have my strong negative reaction, set it aside, and then try to focus on the writer’s intent as a distinct thing from which of my buttons they pushed. This too is something we would agree on because it’s the treatment you are asking for. Sansa fans in the past didn’t read your thoughts charitably and you suffered harassment for it. Instead of understanding that Cersei is an awful person and you don’t like awful people, they said you are an awful person and that’s why you don’t like her. Of course you object! Unless you were being misogynistic in your criticism of her, that’s unfounded.

However, this is where I take exception to your ask. Just as you do not wish to be called a misogynist for hating Cersei, I do not wish to be called ableist for reaching my limit with Tyrion.

Now, you didn’t outright call me ableist, and maybe you didn’t even mean to imply it, but you indicated something was off about us sympathizing with Cersei, not Tyrion, by first saying we like a “type” of victim, and then the way you juxtaposed able-bodied and disabled here:

“cersei, the beautiful able-bodied woman, can wish rape and torture on the septas who abused her, and that's okay, that's forgivable, yes it was bad but according to her fans they can still enjoy her as a character and feel sympathy for her because the patriarchy has been so, so mean to her. but, according to those same fans, when the disabled man wishes rape on the sister who abused him...”

I wouldn’t even say I truly hate Tyrion (some fans do), but I certainly emotionally disengaged with him in ADWD, and it really feels to me that you’re saying that although you’re not a Tyrion fan either, the way we aren’t Tyrion fans is worse. Obviously I object to that. You know before I say anything else what I’m going to say, as you too are a Sansa fan, but I’m still gonna say it because I can’t let this sit in the ether unchallenged and I am baffled by the insinuation (that I feel you made, perhaps that was not your intention?)

It is only rational for a Sansa fan to read ASOIAF and think,

“Well, I don’t like that this little girl was forced into a marriage with an adult and he wants to have sex with her”

or

“I don’t like the fact that if Sansa were to have sex with him she’d likely get pregnant and then be killed but he hates her for not returning his sexual interest even though he knows she is way too young”

or

“I don’t like the fact that he resents her even though anyone would have a hard time coming to love a family member of someone who killed their family--he knows this--and yet!”

… you get the idea. If any other man was in that position we’d be pissed about it too. It’s normal for fans to view everything in terms of how it impacts their fav, and Tyrion is a specific threat to her. Not because he is particularly evil, but because marrying Sansa to a Lannister was an attempt to use her body against her family, her people, against herself. I’ve mentioned this many times before. Not having sex with Tyrion is a way to protect the North and her own life; therefore, Tyrion’s sexual interest in her is a threat. As a Sansa fan, I get angry.

It is part of the story that other characters are ableist and view Tyrion as far worse than he is (although Sansa recognizes that he treated her better than others), and it’s a dark kind of joke to have Lysa talking about how awful he is although we know that Tyrion intervened to protect Sansa, didn’t have sex with her because he knew she didn’t want to even when she was prepared to do so, and that it is Lysa herself who later tries to kill Sansa! Clearly, the formerly beautiful victim of the patriarchy is painted as far worse than the man their society vilifies. I’m definitely sensible to this. As a Sansa fan, I take that to heart.

And yet, I hardly think it means anything bad about a person that they say, “you know what, Tyrion wanted Sansa’s birthright, he wants to have sex with this little girl, I don’t like that.” It has nothing to do with ableism,  everything to do with making a moral judgment on the very reasonable grounds of objecting to kid x adult relationships. Do we like this behavior or not? Obviously how he is  treated by his family explains things from his perspective, and we can feel for the man who wants love, that moves me, but it does nothing to change what his wants mean for Sansa.

Also, maybe part of the reason why your ask seems totally disconnected from my experience with Sansa fans is that, I’m not in the Sansa fandom at large. I’m in a little corner of the Sansa fandom that dislikes adult men who lust after little girls. That means I don’t interact with BNFs (except that stumpy fucker, you know the one 😉) as they are or support those shippers, I have all those ship tags filtered, and I’m repulsed that the fandom has so normalized this behavior that objecting to it is what gets you ostracized, not the other way around. This isn’t Tyrion specific. I don’t like the Hound, Jorah, Rhaegar, Littlefinger, Drogo...there are too many to list, basically, I don’t like it when adult men have a sexual interest in little girls. Cersei was never presented as a sexual predator for Sansa, making her villainy easier for me to stomach.  Maybe that is insufficient explanation for you, but I think it is very understandable why my reaction to her is distinct. And, I would ask, grant me (us) the fairness you want for yourself. Read our feelings with the same openness to understanding you deserve. Because, if you deserve it (and you do), we deserve it too.

If I can understand that you can’t emotionally engage with Cersei because of the awful things she does, you can understand why I can’t engage with Tyrion because of the dark point he reached when he, not only did the above, not only wished for Cersei to be raped, but said he wanted to rape her. "And the only reward I ask is I might be allowed to rape and kill my sister." (ADWD, Tyrion VII). I’ve said before this villain arc isn’t something I would have ever written, but Martin did, and fans are allowed to dislike villains based on their villainy. You agree with me there! And yet...there was an implication that your hatred of Cersei was pure, where my disinterest in Tyrion is flawed. I think that’s silly.

If we’re both willing to recognize that we can hate these characters for their actions, that we have reasons other than being crappy people for disliking specific villains, we can then take that understanding and recognize that we have different triggers, and we can simply disengage with each other’s content without fabricating reasons for why the other person feels what they feel when the reason is right there.

Of course, perhaps you didn’t mean to imply we’re ableist, maybe you meant to say that we don’t care about male victims, only the plight of ASOIAF women. I wrote this the other day too:

But something for people who share your concerns to remember is that, the discussion of how women are treated in Westeros interests a lot of us so we hone in on that more than specific acts of violence. It isn’t that we think their trauma is more important exactly, it’s part of a discussion  overall that we’re interested in. The series is quite violent, most characters have suffered violence, but I think our corner likes to talk about the suffering of women, specifically, likely as an extension of our real life concerns. I don’t talk about the physical abuse Sansa suffered as much as I do her forced marriage. That’s objectively weird if I were interested in weighing suffering against suffering, and deciding who has the greatest trauma, but it’s a specific kind of terror for women to lose bodily autonomy, to be married off or forced to have children or forced to undergo an abortion on the whim of the man who happens to be in charge of you at the time. I’m guessing that’s why certain forms of abuse/trauma preoccupy us. We’re interested in a larger conversation that drives some of what we’re examining in ASOIAF. (link)

So...it isn’t that I don’t care about the male characters or the abuse they suffered, but the discussion about these victims fits into different themes and one theme is something I’m drawn to. My fandom has talked about how certain women have sexually abused men, so it isn’t the case that our interest has impacted our ability to recognize their wrongs or that we have neglected them altogether. And we have also talked about age differences and power imbalances in relationships in which a man is the victim. We’ve actually been called misogynistic because we’ve condemned certain female characters for how they abuse others, so truly, this isn’t something we’ve ignored! It’s just for some of us, Martin’s discussion of how women are used and abused by Westeros is of particular interest so we write about it more.

I realize I may have honed in on the specific word choice rather than grasping the whole picture. Perhaps your intention was to point to all these things about Cersei as a way of describing Cersei’s privilege? The privilege of certain villains in-world, and to suggest that we fans have unwittingly been suckered with some combo of superficiality, reverse sexism, and ableism? Well, if this is truly a matter of privilege, and that is actually what we’re looking to, then why must I sympathize with Dany rather than her victim? In comparison to Mirri, she is  privileged. And if that is what is “right” according to the fandom, to prioritize Dany’s feelings over Mirri’s life, why mustn’t I do the same for Cersei? Trick question! I’m not doing that with Cersei. I do sympathize with Tyrion (her victim), so the real question is, why is it fine to do that with Dany?

I only mention Dany because of this:

"well, this person needs to understand that we're defensive of cersei because she gets so much hate from the fandom" and so i’ll say upfront that, one, i already know and understand that, and two, i still think it's a poor excuse. do you honestly think dany fans aren't defensive of her because of the very vocal, relentless hate she gets from some parts of the fandom?

And I take exception to this because we accept that Cersei is a villain and acknowledge her crimes. The fandom isn’t doing that for Dany and have conveniently labeled criticism of her as hate. To me, this is the same thing as labeling my statement that the Hound assaulted Sansa as hate. Sure, his fans don’t want me to, but he put a fucking knife to her throat and threatened to kill her. He did. So when show fans call Dany a monster, a mass murderer, they’re saying that because she is. D&D made her do that, made that comparison. And if we’re talkin strictly bookly, it isn’t hate to say,

“hey, when this white woman burned alive a rape victim whom her husband enslaved, idk fam, maybe that means she’s not a hero”

or

“ya  know, we all say Martin is a pacifist, maybe he doesn’t want us to   support Dany’s war campaign that leads to the rape/death of numerous people and is funded by slavery.”

Yes, of course people who don’t want to believe Martin will write Dany as a villain dislike us for saying this and call everything we say “hate,” but isn’t this us refusing to be blinded by her pain, blinded by her beauty, blinded by her privilege and saying, nah, this is bad. And, what is objectively worse, an author who says that shit is part of a hero’s journey, or an author who says, this is the descent into darkness? Is it actually hate to insist he didn’t intend us to defend her actions?

Confession, I sympathize with Dany too, but I don’t need to write about that because everyone does. What people don’t do is admit that burning people alive is bad, that overseeing the slaughter of children is bad, that making money off of slavery is bad...I mean, I could be missing the forest for the trees, but I just don’t buy that the rest of the fandom’s attitude is about treating these characters fairly based on any sort of objective standard.

It seems to me the issue is that how we (my part of the fandom) treat these characters is not based on how the fandom values them. It seems to me that the fandom is upset that some of us don’t fall in line and condone or condemn these characters the same way everyone else does. But seeing as I’m not claiming villains aren’t villains or redefining morality in order to insist certain actions are heroic, I’m not the one who doesn’t have a clear standard here. And I say that because I think you’re the anomaly by actually viewing Cersei and Tyrion as both villains and hating them both. When I was roaming the wilds it looked to me as if most of the fandom actively defends and sympathizers with villain behavior (without acknowledging it as such) except when it comes to Cersei. Hence the rise of people interested in saying, uh, maybe there’s humanity here too?

I’m not saying that’s your stance on Dany btw, I have no idea if that was your feeling about what we say regarding Dany or you were just quoting others, but making the comparison with what we do with Cersei and what they do with Dany doesn’t work for me. Cersei is a villain, I sympathize with her. Dany is a villain, I sympathize with her. I don’t like the fandom because they say Cersei is and don’t, and Dany isn’t and they do. It isn’t hate for me to say, oh, her dad wanted to turn KL into a funeral pyre to become a dragon and Dany ended book one walking into a funeral pyre to get dragons. Wonder if that means something. I know what that means. Neat! 🫣 If Dany fans are receiving sexist hate the way Sansa or Cersei or Cat fans do, I condemn that wholeheartedly, that’s disgusting. I’ve blocked hundreds of accounts and still get messages taunting me about Sansa getting raped. This fandom can be horrifying, but reasonable interpretations, even if the conclusion is something you disagree with, aren’t the same thing at all as harassing other fans or needless character hate.

On a personal note, I had a very strong negative reaction to this ask because while I do want people to be free to present alternative interpretations of characters and scenes, and I invited my previous anon to talk about other villains more sympathetically than some in our fandom, I did not intend to say it is open season on Sansa fans. I had to ignore the ask for a while because I realized, it probably wasn’t intended the way I took it, but even when I finally wrote a response, I had to delete it. I had to do that a few times. 😂 My point is, I did make an effort to actually engage here rather than dismiss your point out of hand. But I have to say, I feel so strongly about this issue, if I saw the Sansa fandom the way it sounds like you do, I wouldn’t be part of it. Perhaps I have done too good a job of curating my experience (something I’m dedicated to), but from my perspective, this is the corner of the fandom that does take the issue of abuse seriously, to the point that we will condemn fandom favorites (Dany, Tyrion too--he is a favorite. I still consider myself a show fan because I got into GoT first so I had to squint at this ask and wonder if this is a “valyrian scroll” side of the fandom issue because the GoT fandom adores him, even Sansa fans like him!) in order to fairly apply those standards. I can’t demand people like who I like or hate who I hate. (The character I hate the most is Rhaegar--loathe him.) All we can ask is some consistent standard, and my part of the Sansa fandom has it. Saying that likely makes me part of the problem in your eyes, but it is what I believe is true. In my eyes, it seems like you’re equating things that can’t really be compared. Our context and goals when talking about these characters are totally different.

If this is a conversation you think there is anything to gain from continuing, please DM me so you can explain more about you thoughts on the disparity between how we treat victims in the story, or, if you write a take on a scene or character, send me a link and I’ll share it. Even if I don’t agree with your conclusion, I assure you, I have tried to resist the urge to hurl insults at people online in the past, and your message certainly reemphasizes the need to continue to avoid doing that. It is easy to assume the worst, and this is an good reminder for us not to.

Again, I'm sorry you had a horrible experience with Sansa fans, and that it left you with such a negative impression of the fandom. I hope you’ve found a little circle of the fandom (as I have) that is safe, caring, and fun. <3

in reference to this post

#ask dot #long post #fandom critical #< tag to filter

[reginarubie]

Hi, Regina!

You know, it's been a pretty tough day for me. My condition was not good because of period pain, I had to change the subject of my thesis after consulting with my professor, and even family issues occurred. It was a pretty stressful day.

And then I saw your new story. THE DAEMON'S POV. What have I done for you to do me this good grace? I'm completely, absolutely, positively love this story.

I’d just like to tell you I adore your story and admire how much work you put out there. According to GRRM, Daemon Targaryen is one of the greyest characters in the entire history of Westeros. He’s a notorious bad boy and a rogue in every sense of the word, a very colorful and unpredictable character. AND THEN your Daemon in the story I saw today was just *chef's kiss

I couldn't stop admiring how vividly you expressed Daemon's character. The dynamic and relationship of the characters you keep showing... This is brilliant. I'll never get enough of your writing.

And I must say, the way Daemon described Sansa was interesting. the woman he’d make his own reflection, the perfect combination of boldness and finesse. Is this one of the reasons he was attracted to her? For some kind of narcissistic reason? (I don't know if I understand correctly) Well this is interesting🤔

And wait, Daemon? Did he just masturbate while thinking of Sansa? WOW so he's really infatuated with her. Damn. Well, I should have known from the fact that he uses a poor girl as a substitute for Sansa. But still, surprised is surprised. When I read the sentence, I doubted my English reading skills and double-checked whether I read it wrong. But it was a real.

Now I'm starting to worry about what Daemon will do to Sansa when he takes over King's Landing. Worry 30%, excitement 70%. To be honest.

Lastly, thank you for letting me read a fantastic story after a hard day today! It was like a gift to me. Thank you so much😊

Ciao nonny!,

Sorry to hear you’re feeling a tad miserable. Period pains can be the worst especially when other shits piles up over it!

I’ve graduated a while ago, and I remember having to change my professor mid-thesis and having to change it all drastically to the point it was unrecognisable from my original idea and what I had written that far. But it turned out for the best and helped me get the best grade possible I could achieve.

So, sit tight there and do your best!, and you will see that in the end it will be for the best. And if you still don’t feel the topic, just dump the professor and find a new one that will help you grow in the direction you feel right!

The academic world and life in general is full of possibilities as long as you let yourself entertain them!

I’m sorry for your family matters, and I hope they are resolved soon, know this, I’m always ready to offer a shoulder to cry on or a listening ear!

Now, onto the story!!! I’m happy you enjoyed it!

Also, to specify, Daemon did not masturbate to Sansa precisely, more to the narcissistic vision he was having. If you noticed he was more active on it thinking about Rhaenyra exploding and becoming what he wanted her to, not a dreamy princess but a dragon. And his own idea of being remembered is what sends him over the edge of pleasure. So, it’s a bit more complex than Daemon getting off anyone he thinks beautiful and intelligent.

I think the girl is more like a vessel, the power he exercise on her is what he craves, and the fact that she superficially resembles Sansa means he feels like he is exercising that kind of power over Sansa. He’s not obsessed over Sansa per se, but over the power he wants to have over her.

I’m happy the story lift your spirits a bit! That’s what I work hard for, and knowing it helped you today I’m very happy indeed!

As always thank you for dropping by and sending all my love ~G.

#ask the hag #anon asks #firesteel #kissed by fire ~ kissed by steel #aemondxsansa #aemond/sansa #aemond targaryen #firesteel fandom

[aboveallarescuer]

Btw, I wonder if you ever thought about the Jaime/Cersei and Dany/Daario relationships paralleling eachother? I never see people talking about it but some of their quotes and scenes seem intentionally similar to me. + For example, how Daario and Jaime's (yes, Jaime Lannister is a toxic romantic partner, the fandom can stay mad) reaction to their respective marriage proposals are heavily linked with posession (more so than love).

First of all, Anon, I'm assuming you're the same person who sent me two asks, this one and another about Tyrion. Re: the latter ask, I basically agree with your comments and have nothing substantial to add, so I'm going to focus on answering this one.

So, yes, I had thought about similarities between Dany/Daario and Cersei/Jaime before, but I'm glad you sent me this ask because you made me think of more parallels and antiparallels. They are certainly worth discussing because they highlight different aspects of Dany's and Cersei's characters and make it clear, once again, that they are meant to be foils.

(I'm not going to add book quotes here because I'm tired, sorry... But you can ask for evidence in another ask if you find anything I say questionable)

Daario and Jaime are both hot-headed, arrogant warriors presented as alternatives to the husbands of the two queens (Hizdahr, Robert).

Both Dany and Cersei love these men instead of their husbands.

Both Daario and Jaime react angrily when they find out that Dany and Cersei are going to marry.

Both Daario and Jaime ask the queens to leave their husbands and to be with them instead, but they both deny their requests.

Both Daario and Jaime offer to kill their queens' husbands for them. Both Dany and Cersei imagine the two men following through with their threats at some point.

Dany ends her affair with Daario after she takes Hizdahr as her consort. Cersei doesn't end her affair with Jaime after marrying Robert (and she did nothing wrong in this particular situation).

Neither Dany nor Cersei hides their affairs well (though it's worth noting that Cersei is being more reckless in doing so because she was queen consort and her power derived from Robert, while Dany was queen regnant and, therefore, had power in her own right. Indeed, Dany taking Daario as her lover is compared to Lewyn Martell, a man, taking a paramour in Dorne. That certainly isn't how the Faith views Cersei's affair with Jaime. Also, as I said above, Dany's affair lasted while she was unmarried, while Cersei's happened while she was married).

Dany thinks she'll never have a child with Hizdahr because she believes she's infertile. Cersei thought she'd never have a child with Robert back when he was alive because she always took measures to prevent that from ever happening (and she definitely did nothing wrong here).

Dany idealizes her relationship with Daario way more than Cersei idealizes hers with Jaime. For instance, Dany says to herself that she would give up her crown for Daario if he ever asked her to do so, but she doubts he ever would because she assumes he loves her solely because of her power. Cersei never considers giving up her crown for Jaime (to be fair, I don't think Dany would've done that for Daario either). In this particular case, I actually think that Rhaegar is Cersei's Daario, because it's with Rhaegar that Cersei dreamed and still dreams of marrying and having his children and living a blissful life together (though, even in that fantasy, Cersei would still want to be queen, while Dany thinks she'd be content living a normal life alongside the man she loves without any power or luxury in the house with the red door). Daario and Rhaegar (rather than Jaime) are the men who bring out Dany's and Cersei's romantic sides (which makes sense because Cersei idealized Rhaegar back when she was a young girl like Dany). Rhaegar is the one that got away for Cersei, and I imagine Dany will have similar feelings about Daario in the future.

At some point during their reigns, both Dany and Cersei send Daario and Jaime away, but for opposite reasons: Dany does so because Daario advised her to kill her subjects and she's appaled by the suggestion; Cersei does so because Jaime advised her to cooperate with her subjects and she assumes that that means he is disrespecting her authority (which he does sometimes, but not always).

It's harder for Dany to be apart from Daario than it is for Cersei to be apart from Jaime. Dany immediately regrets her decision to send him away and even goes as far as to think that, because she had an indirect role in Hazzea's death for allowing Drogon to roam freely, she is a monster just like Daario (seriously, how can anyone think that book!Dany is arrogant???). Meanwhile, Cersei only comes to regret her decision to send Jaime away after she needs his help, specifically after the Faith arrests her and she has no reliable option to choose to fight for her life in a trial by combat.

Both Dany and Cersei spend most of their storylines away from these men. (I could be wrong, but I don't think GRRM had Daario out of the picture because he was supposedly bored with him like I've seen some BNFs or 'neutrals' argue... I do think that was a choice specifically made to strengthen the parallels between Dany and Cersei).

Both Daario and Jaime feel jealous of Dany's and Cersei's relationships with other men throughout AFFC/ADWD.

Daario returns with the Stormcrows when Dany recalls him even though it would have been beneficial to betray her and turn to Yunkai's side, especially since he already knew that the Second Sons had done that. Jaime doesn't return when Cersei asks him to go back... You could even say that he switches sides, in a way, by deciding to prioritize Brienne's request instead. This is part of a larger pattern: while most of Dany's people (including Daario) remain loyal to her by the end, almost all of Cersei's allies abandon her. While it's said that Dany managed to keep everyone (former slaves and former masters) together, Cersei destroyed the Lannister-Tyrell alliance due to her poor decisions.

ADWD Daenerys X ends with Dany thinking about how Daario wouldn't mind seeing her in such a messy state like how she is by the end of the chapter. AFFC Cersei X ends with Cersei hoping against hope that Jaime will return and win her trial by combat. Both expect to be reunited with and to be saved by their lovers at the end of these chapters.

Dany doesn't trust Daario, but she doesn't close herself off from him either, which is why she has the support of the Stormcrows. Cersei says she lost her trust in Jaime, but then, by the end, she is in such a dire situation that she desperately decides to put all her hope in him and trust him way too much (to a degree that even Qyburn finds concerning since he lost his hand). This is part of a larger pattern: while Dany is wary of some people, she knows that she should still take risks and make alliances. This attitude doesn't make her omniscient and she is not immune to making mistakes or to people (like Brown Ben) betraying her, sure. That being said, Dany still remains open-minded, cooperates with influential allies and makes a peace agreement that could have worked if the deal wasn't inherently false for prioritizing the privileges of the masters over the lives of the slaves and if her primary goal wasn't to protect the disenfranchised first and foremost. Meanwhile, Cersei thinks she should distrust everyone, which leads her to alienate potential allies that could have been useful and to be surrounded by people who claim to agree with her on everything, but who are neither experienced nor reliable. Then she creates plans that rely way too much on these very untrustworthy people, which is why they backfire: from the construction of the dromonds (which she relied on Aurane Waters, who turned his back on her) to the attempt on Bronn's life (which she relied on Balman Byrch, who turned his back on her) to the scheme to have Margaery and her cousins arrested (which she relied on Osney Kettleblack, who turned his back on her) to the decision to rearm the Faith Militant (which she relied on the High Sparrow, who turned his back on her) to her decision to trust that Jaime (who also turned his back on her) will return to fight for her life ... I'm sure there are more examples, but that's enough to illustrate my point. Cersei's thinking is too extreme, while Dany has a healthy distrust of others. As a result, Cersei makes hasty decisions and burns bridges unnecessarily, while Dany is able to make more carefully weighed decisions, as well as to create and maintain important alliances.

Finally, I think Dany and Daario's relationship is more positive than Cersei and Jaime's. Not only there's no verbal abuse or disrespect of sexual consent like how it happens with Cersei/Jaime, but Daario didn't switch sides to Yunkai, gave her good counsel (such as when he tells her to hold court and reminds her that her children need her) and genuinely cares about Dany, which we see from when he tells her not to get married time and again to when we contrast him with Osney. He is possessive and brags about sleeping with her on some occasions, yes, but I think it was @evilwomen who pointed out in one of our conversations that Dany doesn't feel bothered by any of that, which goes to show how much she loves him, since she's willing to forgive actions that would be considered insults for his sake.

So, once again, thanks for this ask, Anon, it encouraged me to think about connections that I hadn't considered before.

And you know, I said this before and will say it again... This is why I think Dany is the YMBQ... Not just because she clearly fits all the requirements, but because she and Cersei were way too carefully written to parallel and contrast each other (so much so that the author mentioned that in multiple interviews). You said you "never see people talking about" the parallels between Cersei/Jaime and Dany/Daario, but look at how much I managed to find off the top of my head (and I'm not even sure this is comprehensive, tbqh)??? Now imagine that happening to all of their casts of supporting characters and to all the political events and to pretty much every single aspect of their characterizations and storylines. Their parallels and antiparallels are really overwhelming, and it's why I decided to make gifs showing why they're foils.

#daenerys targaryen #cersei lannister #daario naharis #jaime lannister #answered #asoiaf meta

[iheartbookbran]

I think the whole Daenerys burning KL thing has a lot less to do with her than it does several other plot threads and themes in the story. Unfortunately I think GRRM is going to use Daenerys to confront the concept of paying for your ancestors crimes, her father put that wildfire there, her legacy (as a Targaryen, not as Daenerys herself) is literally built on fire and blood. The Targaryens might have united the 7 Kingdoms, but they did so with a lot of unnecessary bloodshed, and there was almost never a time in their history of reigning where there wasn't war. Daenerys as an individual is not responsible for any of this, and I wholeheartedly agree with you that she doesn't need to be taught a lesson about abuse of power, but unfortunately I think GRRM is going in this direction anyways, because he's going to use her as a climax for the entire Targaryen reign. It's a cruel sort of irony, that the place her ancestors built from the ground up will be the cause of her "downfall" and probably turn her into a morally ambiguous historical figure in the future, regardless of what she does to save Westeros from the others.

And there's the fact that the wildfire beneath KL is a huge chekov's gun. Someone *has* to ignite it, and if it's not Daenerys, I'm not entirely sure who it could be. Cersei is definitely a contender, but seeing as she doesn't know about the wildfire yet, it's a little bit of a reach. I think it would be a very tragic way to wrap up Daenery's storyline, but it seems like that's the direction GRRM is headed in :/

Hey there! Ok, a little disclaimer before I start: today I got my first covid vaccine shot and I’m a little dizzy as a result so I might not make much sense right now. Sorry in advance.

While I completely get the whole ‘paying for the crimes of your ancestors’ concept you’re bringing up, and that’s a theme GRRM is definitely fond of exploring, to me it would be like holding Dany at completely different standards than the rest of the characters. Because it’s one thing for Dany to be in conflict with her father’s legacy—which tbh I would say she already kinda is?—and another entirely to punish Dany for every bad thing the Targaryens ever did because Monarchies=Bad and therefore Targaryens=Bad. I mean we wouldn’t be getting anything similar from the other major POVs. For example, I don’t believe a house like that of the Starks could rule for literally thousands of years without a little blood in their hands, it’s just GRRM doesn’t focus as much on them (and they didn’t have dragons, but I already explained why I believe Dany doesn’t need a lesson on how her dragons can be dangerous in the first place).

I think when it comes to fathers and legacies characters like Dany, Tyrion and Jon are very similar because a part of their stories is about showcasing how they’re not like their fathers. Tyrion has to confront his father… and kill him so he can move on with his life, which in turn kickstarts the downfall of House Lannister, but that was something Tyrion was alive to see, and to question and to know that it wasn’t as glorious as his family wanted to believe it was, but instead shallow and rotten; Dany on the other hand never got to see her family in full power and reap the benefits of that; in fact, she was actively a target for most of her childhood because of her name. With Jon I think he will be confronted with the legacies of his biological Father (Rhaegar) and his adopted one (Ned), and try and decide which one he wants to honor, or that maybe he ought to forge his own path entirely.

Now with Dany, again she’s already starting to question Viserys’ narrative about their father, we see it in her conversations with Ser Barristan and her fears of ‘turning mad’ like Aerys (and tbh that’s all the reasons I need to know why she wouldn’t go mad) for me not to believe she’s going to try to distance herself from what her father represented. The destruction of KL and the knowledge of her father’s role in it would just solidify that in Dany’s head plus the internal emotional conflict that would come with it but without the extra steps of the author needlessly lecturing Dany (and us) about the dangers of unchecked power or that a throne is not all there is in life; I would argue Dany already knows that. She doesn’t need a reason or an excuse to be a rescuer, she already is one, as Tyrion (GRRM) said for several paragraphs in ADWD.

The part that you mention about the destruction of KL giving Dany bad PR? I believe she already has it lmao. Just remember how she was talked about during Quentyn and Tyrion’s POVs, while a lot of people love her, many others hate her guts to a hilarious degree and demonize her for what she’s done to the poor defenseless slave masters. Such are the woes of women who rise to power and then go like “hey… maybe owning people is wrong?” but I digress. As you said, there are currently many contenders for the honor of getting to burn KL, and who knows, maybe it will be a group effort! I suspect the dragons will be involved one way or another, but the stolen ones (idk if Euron will steal more than one dragon) so adding Dany to the mix wouldn’t make much sense except to make way for her showdown with Aegon VI, that at this point honestly I’m not that interested in. I think Dany has more important stuff going on for her. Like, there’s a lot of confrontations I would like to happen that I believe the narrative as it currently stands doesn’t have much room to allow to breathe properly, like Jaime/Tyrion, Cercei/Tyrion, Arianne/her family in general. At the end of the day those dragons are her dragons, her children, and she will blame herself strongly for whatever they do (and others will too, enthusiastically, I’m sure), just remember how much guilt she feels over Drogon killing that little girl, and no one was controlling him then, not even Dany.

So basically what I was trying to convey during this mess of a response is that I’m not saying Daenerys has no buisness in the KL conflict, but rather that making her the one responsible for its destruction would feel way too contrived for me, it would require the plot to stay on hold for god knows how long until she’s done with her business in Essos and it would do absolutely nothing for her character or development but rather serve as some kind of twisted double-standard in which only Dany has to atone for the sins of her ancestors, as if living exiled and destitude all her life wasn’t enough.

#again sorry for my rambling and not making any sense i swear i’m dying a little here and my arm hurts like hell #Anonymous #ask #ask pam #daenerys targaryen #stormborn #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #a song of ice and fire #valyrianscrolls #pro daenerys #meta #my meta

[mary1andonly]

Hi! I read your recent Brienne & Jaime post & it was very interesting. Just wanted to say I'd love to hear your reasons for Jaime becoming Bran's Hand in the books. It's a theory I only read this week, as it's not discussed much, so curious on your thoughts. I love it myself. Maybe people just think Tyrion is default because of the show? Also, as only a show fan at the moment, I still love Jaime, Brienne & the ship, so luckily D&D didn't ruin them completely :-)

Hi! I'm so glad you enjoyed my post. And I'm really glad D&D failed in throwing away all the hard work GRRM put in in creating those two.

The first time that theory was presented to me, was thanks to this amazing post (maybe it was the same one you also saw?!). And later on, after I re read the books again, I found many hints about that theory being true.

Even though for now you're only a show watcher, you probably have heard or read about how Book!Tyrion is descending into a darker path. And people don't say that lightly. From the moment he brutally raped a slave in ADWD, I knew he wasn't going to have the same sort of ending he got in the show (I only started reading the books after s8 wrapped up). In the show, Tyrion never did anything so horrible and disgusting, he stayed more or less the same character throughout all seasons, and D&D felt comfortable in giving him what we can probably call a happy ending. In the books tho, where Tyrion is slowly but surely following Tywin's footsteps in becoming ruthless, Jaime is going into the opposite direction...(hence why I think D&D simply picked the other Lannister to become Bran's Hand in the show, compared to the books)...

Losing his right hand, his sword hand, put a stop into whoever he was, or what he (and us initially) thought he was: a ruthless warrior. Initially, when he had to deal with the Riverrun situation in AFFC, after he lost his hand, he tried to follow in his father's footsteps, but it's just not something that came easily for him. Book!Jaime's naturally able to be respected and beloved even by kids who are supposed to be his hostages. He's slowly becoming someone who can very well be a respectable political presense...which it's something he NEVER wanted to be.

I've noticed that GRRM likes to tease future events by making his characters claim the opposite. One example I always think about is Bran's "I never fall", right before he went and fell from the Tower (yeah, I know he technically didn't "fell" on his own, he was pushed, but still). And the same thing happens to Jaime, the guy that started his POVs thinking nothing bad could happen to him now that he was going to KL... I've mentioned in my original analysis, that the fact Cersei first asked Jaime to become the Hand barely seconds before Jaime pushed Bran (changing the course of their lives) is something that always got my attention. And in the following books, when Jaime and Cersei got POVs, we saw this happen time and time again: Jaime being asked to be the Hand (by Cersei or others, he was asked to become the Hand a suspiciously amount of times.) and always refusing, because he doesn't think he could be anything but a warrior, because he's not interested in politics and because he doesn't think he could be good at it. Unfortunately for Jaime, GRRM loves to prove his characters wrong, about what they want and what they think of themselves, like Brienne being coinvinced she could never find love or become a mother, Martin wants to prove her wrong. And like it's stated in the post I linked, GRRM thinks the best political figure is the one who doesn't want it, the one that understands the burden that comes with it.

I also think it could be a good thematic finish to Jaime's storyline to end the books by completely redeming himself from his fist villainous act. We, of course, don't know what the state of Westeros could be by the end of ADOS, and what Bran being King could actually mean. But I love the parallel between Jaime as an Hand compared to his own father as an Hand. Where Tywin had to deal with a Mad King, while Jaime could form a cool partnership with someone who wants the best for people.

I'm sorry if this ask turned out to be another long rant. Sometimes I just can't help myself.

I hope this can help you, even just a little bit, and I'd love to also read your opinions on it :D

#my asks #jaime lannister #bran stark #asoiaf #asoif/got #george rr martin #asoiaf meta

[twelvemonkeyswere]

very intrigued by hermione/jaime crack 😳😳

thank you both @halfagod​ and @forbiddenfantasies1​ for asking about this! and sorry it's so long okay so - right off the bat, this isn’t anything romantic or anything, but it is crack.

you’ll likely remember there was some fanfic grrm was writing about his own characters fighting other characters. one of the first ones was Jaime Lannister vs Hermione Granger, and since he hates JK Rownling his descriptions of what a showdown between them would be were very uncharitable to the characters to say the fucking least, especially Hermione.

the whole thing is quite a bad read and it sent me thinking that there were a LOT of variables that would play into it if taken seriously, starting with their personalities, ages at the time of the match, reason why they’re fighting in the first place, etc.

and since I like world building and whatnot, I began thinking how to make their showdown realistic and feasable obeying the laws of their respective narratives, and then I decided it would be even more fun (hah) to make as many scenarios with those variables as possible, because that’s the sort of person i am. and then I realized... well. asoiaf began to be published in the 90s.... 1996, to be precise, when hermione was 17, and facing a war against a madman. and the parallels were right there, and thus I made a timeline to see how things would fit, and then some other ideas sprang up from that.

so now the main idea is that it all starts the year after the war, when Hermione comes back to Hogwarts to finish her studies while everyone else goes on with their lives. she’s alone, she has to deal with everything she saw and everything she had to do, and with everyone else in Hogwarts being traumatized too... so she’s depressed, and trying to get better. and in my idea, one of the things she tries is to get back to the things that made her happy before it all went wrong, reading among them.

particularly, reading muggle books. because since she knows real magic now, well, regular fantasy books must lose some of their charm, right? but what if that was what she loved as a kid, and she’s desperate enough to get away from what reality is now, in real-magic world? so maybe she tries new stories, see what she’s missed in the last couple of years.

and maybe she is afraid of being judged for having some of those books or she just wants some peace and quiet, so she sneaks into the room of requirements and foolishly and naively asks for a room where she can “immerse” herself in the book she’s trying to read that night.

and that’s how she meets Jaime, by going into the world of the book. and the idea was then that she would periodically travel into the books and see Jaime at different ages, and as she gets older and processes what happened during the war, her perspective of the events and her life shifts and changes, not unlike Jaime’s story changes through the books.

anyways i wrote some 2k words about grief and healing and it’s been sitting there, looking at me and threatening to become too long.

here’s the bit where she first meets Jaime in case you’re interested

(be warned, I never read HP in English and I haven’t consumed any media about it in YEARS. also i suck at actions scenes)

come ask stuff about my WIPs if you want!

“Who are you?” The white knight demanded.

Hermione frowned and ignored the question, inspecting the trees behind the man, the grass of the meadow under her feet. She had clearly been portkeyed somewhere, where was the artifact? 

“Answer me!” the man demanded. He shifted on his feet, his armor creaking and clinking. “Who sent you?” 

“He said,” a second voice drawled behind her. “Where did you come from?” 

Jumping to one side, Hermione noticed another knight, much closer to her, but also much younger. He was tall, but had a leaner frame even with the white armor, same as his companion. He didn’t have his helm on either, and she spotted it on the ground, likely dropped so the boy could hold his sword with both hands, the point of which was angled at her throat, even at a distance. His curly hair, golden and sticky with sweat, enveloped two emerald green eyes that moved with the murderous intent of a cat. 

Hermione swallowed.

If velas were male, she blinked in confusion, this is what they would look like.

It was stupid to realize that at a moment like this, given the fact her life was being threatened, but no human being was ever that beautiful. It had to be magic. 

She looked around, trying to remember what had been next to her in the Room of Requirements. Where’s the bloody thing?

“Accio portkey,” she swished her wand in a circle above her head, but nothing happened.

“Get her!” the man ordered the boy, and both stepped forward, closing in. Their swords drew up, the man holding it above his head, the boy raising the pommel to his cheek.

“Whoa!” Hermione reached instinctively into her robes and got her wand out. Her mind raced, trying to recall everything she knew about metal charming, but when the knights were upon her, she disapparated with a faint pop. 

She apparated a couple of meters away, shaking her head off the unpleasant feeling of being vaccumed through space. As she opened her eyes, there was a loud clank from the swords that met where she should have been. The boy trembled below the man’s strength, holding his ground with some difficulty.

“Oi, please!” she called to them, holding a hand out in a placating gesture. “Where am I? Who are you?”

As one, the man turned with fury towards her, and the boy frowned in angry confusion. She had a second to recall Professor Gilderoy Lockhart, and, not without failing to see the irony, felt grateful she had learned forgetfulness spells from the best.

“Witchcraft,” the older knight muttered, and the boy only glanced at him for a moment, returning his eyes to her. “Cut her throat!” 

The boy hesitated a second, but when the older man charged towards her, so did he. 

“Wingardium leviosa!” she yelled at the armors, to no effect. “Shit.” She disapparated again, just before they reached her. She apparated by a tree this time, to their right. She aimed at the clothes they hopefully had below their armors and forced herself to speak through the haze. “Wingardium leviosa!” 

Both knights lifted into the air like they weighed less than feathers. 

“Seven hells!” the older knight screamed, anger and fear mixing as he balanced unceremoniously on his spot. 

Iron, Hermione breathed with relief to herself. It was the iron.

She didn’t know what to expect, she had never tried to charm uncharmed metalwork before. Unless you counted locks. Then again maybe that charmed the air around the metal, or maybe there was more magic in this particular iron, she didn’t have the time to--

“What is this?” the young man demanded, as he waved his sword around, testing if he was being held on the spot like a puppet.

Hermione walked towards them with caution. 

“Gentlemen, please!” she called to them through their grunts and curses. “Where am I? Who are you?” 

“Silence, witch!” the older man ordered, trying to stick his sword to the ground in an attempt to descend.

“I’ll let you down as soon as you answer my questions,” she swallowed, reminding herself of the many times she had fought against enemies bigger than her. “I just want to get home.” 

The boy bore his eyes into hers. “Where is that?” 

“None of your bloody business,” she replied instinctively. 

“She’s not from here, ser,” the boy said to the older knight. “She wears odd clothes, speaks strange words.” 

“Shut up, Ser Jaime, get to--”

But Hermione didn’t get to hear what the man wanted the boy to do.

“Ser Jaime?” the name was out of her mouth before she knew it. She squinted at the boy’s armor, saw the seven swords engraved on the plate, and realization hit her. She looked at the boy, then at the man. I’ll be fucking damned. 

“Jaime.” she repeated, bringing the boy’s attention back to her. “Jaime… Lannister?”

#sorry this is very long #personal #tagged meme #halfagod​ #forbiddenfantasies1​ #jb #halfagod #fyi we don't respect jk rowling in this house #wendy writes

[dreadwulf]

I know a lot of Jaime stans don’t think Bran is particularly relevant to Jaime’s redemption arc since he already paid karmically for it, that Jaime’s redemption is in living a better life, that getting forgiveness or scorn from Bran & the remaining Starks would give too much of a definitive answer to if a person can be redeemed, and Bran’s story is headed in a completely different direction. However, I would feel weird if there isn’t some kind of second meeting or closure between the two since

Jaime pushing Bran was one of the precipitating events of the War of the Five Kings and both of their arcs arguably began with crippling. Maybe I want it because I’m intrigued by symmetry, I love stories of forgiveness, maybe because I feel a lot of Jaime’s redemption must be a failure comes from ppl who are unable to forgive him for Bran (which fair, but don’t pretend the redemption arc isn’t there. Someone said it well on Twitter that there would be a lot less denial over the redemption arc or that Jaime’s doomed to failure if the Valonqar prophecy wasn’t there). What do you think? What would you want to see out of a Bran and Jaime interaction? Am I nuts for wanting this?

I think it would be a pretty definitive capper on whether or not we’re supposed to consider Jaime redeemed if Bran meets him and says he’s forgiven, and for that reason I doubt GRRM will explicitly do it. 

Note here that as far as prognosticating for Jaime according to the fandom you have two choices - either the Valonqar prophecy refers to Jaime and he’s going to go back to King’s Landing and commit murder-suicide, or his weirwood dream comes true and he goes North to fight the Others with Brienne. Due to the timing required for Jaime to kill Cersei before someone else can, these are mutually exclusive. Now, since the weirwood dream pretty clearly puts Jaime and Brienne fighting wights together, and Valonqar prophecy could be referring to someone else entirely, the choice for me is pretty clear. BUT these are pretty literal reads of both bits of foreshadowing and quite possibly wrong. Jaime could for example kill Cersei to save King’s Landing and live afterwards. The weirwood dream could be metaphorical and not a prophecy. Anyway my point here is that these two bits of prophecy map pretty clearly onto Team Redemption Arc versus Team Failed Redemption Arc. The Valonqar prophecy is a pretty convenient plot point for those who don’t want to see Jaime be forgiven and keeps him well away from Bran, who in their view is the only person who can give him forgiveness.

I sort of resist this. I don’t think think a redemption arc requires Bran, and I also don’t think we’re seeing a traditional villian-to-hero redemption arc. Jaime was never a traditional villian, for one thing. He’s somewhere in the middle and always has been. He is someone who has done great AND terrible things, and has the capability to do either in the future. He’s on the precipice which is what makes him fascinating. I think ultimately he will undergo tremendous personal change and will accomplish some important things for humankind in the next War for the Dawn, and I think it will be ultimately up to the reader whether that earns him forgiveness for his earlier sins. For the readers, the story arc is when someone could or should be forgiven. Which means Bran telling us whether or not we should forgive him would be cheating, and I also don’t think Bran will consider it relevant in his new role in the story.

I do think a final scene is called for, but that could work out a lot of ways. If Jaime does die at some point, I would not be at all surprised if he becomes aware that Bran is watching it happen. That’s not an explicit meeting, but it would be a full circle kind of moment. Jaime lying on the ground broken and Bran looking down on him. That’s the sort of thing I’m expecting.

I think what a lot of readers are waiting for is Jaime to show some regret. He’s already suffered the karmic retribution of the loss of his hand, and he directly refers to it as the hand he pushed Bran with. But he didn’t beg anyone for forgiveness or angst about it at length, so they consider his punishment unfinished. The thing is, due to Jaime’s peculiar psychology, it would be out of character for him to beg forgiveness for anything. If you’re paying attention to his chapters you do know he regrets pushing Bran, but he doesn’t spend a lot of time angsting about it because he tends to put those things away and not think about them. What those readers need is an opportunity for someone to confront him with it in a way he cannot avoid, and see him express remorse. 

Brienne already accepts him for all that he is and she won’t be the one to confront him with this, but she might lead him to it. If there is a situation where SHE is being made to suffer for Jaime’s sins, I think that would provide what those readers are waiting for. Because Jaime’s not going to plead on his own behalf, or ask for anything he doesn’t deserve, but Brienne? If Stoneheart or Sansa or some other Stark is passing judgment on Brienne for being associated with him, I think he’d have a lot of remorse for that. I think that would make a lot of his regrets come spilling out, because it’s one thing if he’s being punished but Brienne doesn’t deserve to suffer. In that circumstance and possibly only that one, I could see him pleading with a Stark for forgiveness.

But for that note of ambiguity, I don’t think that scene will happen with Bran.

(Sorry this is all over the place. It’s a big topic! And I didn’t even answer your question - no, I understand why people want Bran and Jaime to actually meet and talk. I’m just not sure it’s going to happen. I think the story will provide the resolution in another way.)

#I think it's useful to consider Theon in comparison #he betrayed the Starks pretty definitively and he grew up among them #it's easier for readers to forgive him because his suffering lead him to Winterfell where he was confronted with what he had done #and I think fans have forgiven him because of it #that still has to happen with Jaime #and I think it has to be SToneheart or Sansa because he has to be confronted not only with his own sins but with the crimes of his family #which he has enabled #and he has been low-key considering his father's legacy and what he would have done differently already #so he needs this last push #Anonymous

[janiedean]

Amazing how you can erase and twist everything someone says and not even bother to check things before launching in your 1000 words answer where you repeat the same things over and over again. When I say “Theon’s story is about destroying death”, I AM talking about his trauma and abuse. I’m not saying that Theon is a superhero, I’m saying that Theon’s story is literally about surviving and saying no to the dying of light, he’s always been trapped between life and death. How is that less meaningful than Jon being AA just because he’s special. Jon is stereotypical, not matter how much you deny it. He is the bastard son of the “good” Ned Stark that everyone seems to venerate, he becomes important, he’s actually a prince, and heir to the kingdom, he’s going to come back from the dead and apparently it’s not enough because he’s also AA. Also “I search for AA and see only Snow”, how is that not a red flag? Didn’t you think that it could be about Ramsay hiding Theon? I didn’t say that everything is about mythology and ancient literature, I said Theon has a lot of connections to it, connections that are hard not to notice, that actually make sense and are not taken out of nowhere like everyone in this fandom does. Theon’s story is about himself, not about Bran or any Stark, you’re just obsessed with throbb. Theon is connected to magic and to the gods, Theon is the rightful king of the Iron Islands, so why it’s so amusing to people when someone suggests that Theon has something to do. I’m not saying that Theon has to be important for his story to count, but why it’s so amusing to people the idea that Theon is an abuse and rape victim and at the same time he has something to do. When it comes to female victims, they want them to do great things, when it comes to Theon they constantly reduce him to poor say boy, but Theon is not like that, Theon is in pain and he wants everything to end, but he’s also angry and he wants to be free. I didn’t say that he has to explore the sea because he’s an Ironborn, you said that, not me. I think that that’s something Book!Theon would want to do if he survives everything. Because he would be free and he would go into the unknown. That’s not true Theon has no connection to the sea, the Drowned God himself wants him as king and he likes ships, there’s also the fact that he never learned how to use a ship because he was kidnapped at 10. Also what’s so wrong about him connecting with his culture? He could change things, he wouldn’t be a viking, he would be an explorer. The way you talk about it, it’s like dealing with trauma means closing himself in an house. And about the prophecy, what’s so amusing about saying that Theon has a lot that fits? I know that the prophecy is vague, but Davos and Stannis don’t come close to it as Theon does. Theon died in almost every possible way and managed to come back on his own. He keeps saying that he died in Winterfell. Read the last chapters in ACOK, it’s all there and it all happens at the same time, and still there’s so much more, so many things. And it’s like this HAS to be true, but you say no to everything, you don’t even think that he has something to do with the Iron Islands, you just think he has to “atone” to Bran, so how are you different from D&D? Theon doesn’t have to atone to Bran, Robb or anyone else called Stark, his story is about identity. And Bran is talking to Theon and yes, Theon took Winterfell, but it’s not the only reason their stories are connected, Theon taking Winterfell from Bran was a foreshadowing to them interacting in the future for different more important reasons, that was always clear to me

... anon never mind that I hadn't talked about this in ages so like you came into my inbox with some 500 words of replying at 8 am on a sunday morning and idk how *I* am supposedly twisting things when

you brought this out of nowhere

I hadn't talked about the AA thing nor anything wrt theon's ending in like... a year

you are basically making up half of what I said or didn't because like 'oh I didn't say he had a tying to the sea because he's an ironborn' but two lines later you say 'what's the issue if he reconnects with his ancestry' which.... means that he'd have a tie to the sea because he's an ironborn so what's the truth here

'you're obsessed with throbb' I didn't mention robb once in my entire answer nor throbb nor I have written throbb meta recently like... I ship throbb but I don't see how that has any relevance to an answer where I literally didn't mention it and I said theon's sl can't be just about the starks

idk why you seem to think I have great stakes re jon snow and 'he's stereotypical no matter how much you say he's not', I'm saying that for a chosen one archetype he's a deconstruction so he's not stereotypical in the way h*rry p*tter is or aragorn is or whatever and it's like objective text and honestly I have fic to write and stuff to do and I could have like completely ignored your ask and said 'I think you're wrong' instead yesterday I spent half an hour answering you like... you don't need to sound that aggressive or come at me with this entire block of text when I wasn't even the one starting this conversation

what’s so amusing about saying that Theon has a lot that fits?

anon I explained in those 1k reply or whatever all the reasons why everything theon has that fits is something every single other character has at that point dany has the exact same reasons for fitting it and I told you all the reasons why jon has extra things that fit that no one else has, like.... it's my opinion, I haven't changed my mind since 2012 on it, you aren't going to change it and no one is until grrm writes different, you don't need to convince me or look for me to validate your reading because you can have whichever reading you want and no one stops you, I just don't think it's correct, the end

The way you talk about it, it’s like dealing with trauma means closing himself in an house.

anon you keep on saying I say that but you are aware that if I say I want char X to get their little house in the village/woods/city of their choice and grow strawberries with their loved ones and be happy I'm not saying what you said and I'm talking abt endgame? jaime and brienne both also deal with trauma and when I say that I hope they get married on tarth have fifteen kids and never set foot in a court again I'm not saying having children is the only way to deal with trauma like.... one thing is the endgame one thing is how you get there, where did I say theon is gonna lock himself in a cottage in wow and stay there until ados? nowhere, like.... please a bit of chill here? you read a thing and arbitrarily decided it meant stuff it doesn't mean but I am the one twisting and erasing? like sorry but it sounds like you want a fight about it or smth and believe me fighting about who is AA is not on my list of to-do things for today, also 'I died in winterfell' is like... yeah, theon greyjoy died in wf then he became reek then he became theon again, it's metaphorical, jon literally died, also like if AA wasn't a main fiver then it'd probably be someone completely out of left field that no one gaf about and for that matter there's a character who has been dying and coming back to life who has a flaming sword since like acok, but do I see you telling me it's textual proof beric is AA? no, but that would make more textual sense than theon imvho so *shrug*

in short: anon sorry but it sounds like being that theon is your fave - which... I mean he's in my top three so I agree that he's a great fave choice - you want him desperately to have the main role in the main storyline which is imvho not the case and again... even if jon was stereotypical (which we can argue on but like... from your wording I think you hate jon ngl which fair enough everyone has their dislikes) it wouldn't make the textual evidence less evidence and like... idk how to say it nicely but not liking the protagonist is more common than not and if you don't whatever but that doesn't mean he's not and that the textual stuff indicating he has the mystical hero storyline doesn't exist, I'd suggest you make peace with that concept and with the concept that your fave doesn't need to have any specialness in their sl to be a legitimate fave, also like... in asoiaf everyone who is special™ has a shit life and when grrm says he wants a bittersweet ending like in lotr, do I have to remind anyone what was lotr's ending? samwise gamgee goes back to his little house and children and wife in the shire and says he's home and we're all happy that the dude who deserved it most got it great, if that's what he's aiming for I really don't think presuming everyone gets the magical great™ storyline is in the cards X°D but most of all: again, everyone who's had a sl being full of magic prophecies and shit in these books has had a crap life and hated every second of it that was related to those prophecies and I want theon to be happy at the end so in lack of any imvho text proof that says it's anyone but jon I'll stick with that because it means none of my faves is in line to hate their life, which is exactly what happens to jon if he's AA and exactly what I think is gonna happen and I don't particularly like that for him either bc I do want jon to have nice things but idt he'll get them, doesn't mean I'm trying to find any textual reason to decide on my own that AA is dany (a char I care a lot less about) so that she gets the brunt of it because that's now how it works, I made peace with it too X°D

#1 #2 #34 #5 #6 #anonymous #ask post #ch: theon greyjoy #ch: jon snow #honestly anon i'd ask myself why you're so invested in this you're looking for a fight #bc that's how you sound like #*shrug* #peace

[jackoshadows]

I would like to address some posts I saw that talk about misogynistic double standards when it comes to Jon and Sansa regarding bullying - that Sansa gets criticized and taken to task for bullying Arya but Jon gets a pass for bullying fellow recruits at the Night’s Watch.

First of all, who is giving Jon a pass for bullying Grenn and the others? Are there like 5 page essays out there writing about POV traps and how Grenn was unfairly jealous of Jon and hence deserving of being bullied, how it’s just new recruits being new recruits and Jon did nothing wrong etc.?

Jon’s my favorite character, and I will outright state it - Jon bullied the other recruits at the NW because he was a privileged brat. He was wrong to do it. The text pretty much calls him a bully and unlike some stans, no one is twisting those words to argue otherwise.

And I have never seen anyone defend Jon’s actions there. In fact I have seen these same Sansa stans use Jon’s actions at the Wall to justify Catelyn’s emotional abuse of a child. That even though Jon is a bastard, he was better off than other NW recruits and hence should shut up and stop whining about Catelyn. That his treatment by Catelyn was okay because he had it better than most others in Westeros.

Jon’s actions at the wall are just not mentioned often because it’s accepted that he did wrong. The reason why Sansa’s bullying is often brought up is because Sansa stans write essays about how Sansa never bullied or mocked Arya, how it was just sibling being siblings, how it was because Arya was jealous and hated Sansa, how Arya’s wrong and biased POV is meant to trick readers into hating Sansa when Sansa never actually did anything wrong etc. So it’s book readers responding to this whitewashing of Sansa - because one can read the very real effects this bullying had on Arya’s self esteem and self worth.

In fact the only time Jon’s actions are brought up are when Sansa stans bring it up as whataboutism, to point fingers and accuse others of misogyny - even though no one is actually defending Jon Snow.

And you know what? Yeah, Jon was a bully. But he acknowledges that he did wrong, learned and grew from his mistakes. And I love that about Jon.

“No. They hate you because you act like you’re better than they are. They look at you and see a castle-bred bastard who thinks he’s a lordling.” The armorer leaned close. “You’re no lordling. Remember that. You’re a Snow, not a Stark. You’re a bastard and a bully.”

Donal Noye leaned forward, into Jon’s face. “Now think on this, boy. None of these others have ever had a master-at-arms until Ser Alliser. Their fathers were farmers and wagonmen and poachers, smiths and miners and oars on a trading galley. What they know of fighting they learned between decks, in the alleys of Oldtown and Lannisport, in wayside brothels and taverns on the kingsroad. They may have clacked a few sticks together before they came here, but I promise you, not one in twenty was ever rich enough to own a real sword.” His look was grim. “So how do you like the taste of your victories now, Lord Snow?”

“Don’t call me that!” Jon said sharply, but the force had gone out of his anger. Suddenly he felt ashamed and guilty. “I never... I didn’t think...” - Jon, AGoT

Jon noticed Grenn a few feet away. A thick woolen bandage was wrapped around one hand. He looked anxious and uncomfortable, not menacing at al . Jon went to him. Grenn edged backward and put up his hands. “Stay away from me now, you bastard.” Jon smiled at him. “I’m sorry about your wrist. Robb used the same move on me once, only with a wooden blade. It hurt like seven hells, but yours must be worse. Look, if you want, I can show you how to defend that.” - Jon, AGoT

Dareon gave him a look. “The stewards are fine for the likes of you and me, Sam, but not for Lord Snow.”

I never asked for this,” he said stubbornly.

“None of us are here for asking,” Sam reminded him.

And suddenly Jon Snow was ashamed.

Craven or not, Samwell Tarly had found the courage to accept his fate like a man. On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns, Benjen Stark had said the last night Jon had seen him alive. You’re no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you. He’d heard it said that bastards grow up faster than other children; on the Wall, you grew up or you died. Jon let out a deep sigh. “You have the right of it. I was acting the boy... - Jon, AGoT

Jon Snow being hurt by words calling his mother a whore and later making Satin Flowers,a  prostitute, his steward despite opposition.

“Words won’t make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that. You know, we have men on the Wall whose mothers were whores.” Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind. - Jon, AGoT

Jon is constantly getting his worldviews and his privilege challenged at the wall. He is confronted by some ugly truths about himself and he then takes that advice and changes for the better. It’s the same when he goes among the Wildlings and recognizes that they too are human beings deserving of being on the other side of the wall. We get this gem from him:

“We look up at the same stars and see such different things.”- Jon, ASoS

That’s the difference between how Jon and Sansa are treated in book one. When Jon acts bratty and selfish, other characters call him out on his actions, he acknowledges this, apologizes and makes up for it.

With Sansa, on the other hand, we don’t really see anyone taking her to task over her behavior. Quite the opposite. Catelyn and the Septa only encourage it. Ned ‘both sides’ the issue, often talking to Arya about how she should get along with Sansa and behave like sisters. We never see him giving those same talks to Sansa.

Which is weird because most parents would talk to their elder kids to bring about peace in sibling disputes. But in this case, Ned keeps reasoning with his younger daughter instead of his elder one. Probably because everyone thinks that Sansa is the good girl and Arya is the problematic, unruly one.

And because she is never reprimanded over her behavior, Sansa continues to be a spoiled and selfish brat right till Ned is executed at the end of the first book.

Sansa does become more empathetic in the later books after she becomes sadistic Joffrey’s political prisoner and she tries to help where she can. But while GRRM said this about her:

Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father's death.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?tag=westeros-21&ie=UTF8&docId=49161

I don’t think I have actually read Sansa showing true remorse or regret for tattling Ned’s plans to Cersei. Or even feeling bad about how she treated Arya. As late as ASoS she thinks of her dead sister as being unsatisfactory compared to beautiful, graceful Margaery Tyrell. In the Vale, she pretends to be a bastard and yet never once recalls the bastard brother she looked down on.

There is a lot of self pity in Sansa’s POV chapters and she reprimands herself for being naive and stupid. But she never acknowledges the way she treated Arya, the Trident incident and Mycah, betraying her family etc. She does reflect at one point on how she wrongly trusted the Lannisters and she would never do that again.

Other than that there is very little introspection in Sansa’s POV chapters. Jon feels guilt, Arya feels guilt, Dany feels guilt, even Catelyn feels a twinge of regret and guilt about her treatment of Jon after meeting Mya Stone. But this is something I find lacking in Sansa’s POV chapters.

But when readers point this out, we are labelled misogynistic haters who just hate Sansa and want her to suffer, and how Sansa has nothing to apologize for, she did nothing wrong, she’s flawless and blameless of everything.

I am hoping we get acknowledgement, regret and apologies from Sansa when the older, wiser sisters meet again and resolve their issues. There is nothing wrong in apologizing for bad behavior. Everyone does it. It does not make one a super villain. It would go a long way towards humanizing Sansa and making her more likeable, in my opinion.

So anyways this turned into an essay, but yes, Jon Snow was a bully in AGoT when he went to the wall and beat up some new recruits. There is no defense of that behavior and I am glad that Donal Noye gave him a good talking to and set him straight about his privilege.

#Jon Snow #Sansa Stark #AGoT #Night's Watch #asoiaf #GRRM

[youritalianbookpal]

I think the point isn't that the conversation affected Jaime, but that it affected Cersei. She is the one that remembers about it and she is the one that subscribes to this idea that love is useless and passes that message to both Joffrey and Sansa. It doesn't come up in Jaime's internal monologue ever and, in fact, he completely disregards Tywin's way of thinking. Not only was Jaime was fully devoted to Cersei he was also the one that loved Tyrion despite Tywin's hatred of him.

(sorry for the late reply, the new job has been taking much more time than I thought it would. The ask is about this post. I am sorry if the reply is a bit confusing, but I’m terrible at editing and writing on my phone)

I see your point, anon, and you’re probably more right than me, but I'm not sure that something we learn about a character from another POV is not relevant to that character, especially when the two are as intertwined as Jaime and Cersei. Maybe I’m giving GRRM too much credit, who knows.

Cersei lives by what Tywin said way more than Jaime does, you're not wrong in that. Jaime loves Cersei, he cares deeply for Tyrion, and I'd argue he even enjoys spending time with people outside of his immediate family like his uncles and aunts, but that's the core of it, they're still Lannisters. Rules regarding other people don't apply to Lannisters. And frankly, this doesn’t even apply to all Lannisters (for example Lance). 

(Also I want to point out that Cersei and Jaime’s relationship is not exactly an example of healthy relationship. The fact that they love each other doesn’t automatically mean they’re in a healthy relationship. And maybe the fact that they can’t recognize this comes from the very weird concept of love that you get by being raised by Tywin Lannister).

He cares about the knights who become his father figures, but again, they are father figures, somehow still pertaining an idea of family that teenage Jaime could have had, and a sort of way to replace the father who has way too many expectations and doesn’t even want to get to know his child properly, let alone actually show any love to him.

I also wanna add that Jaime is not that good at showing affection to part of his family, especially his kids. Sure, he can't publicly treat them as he would have if they had officially been his children, but he's still their uncle. It's socially acceptable for an uncle to be close to his nieces and nephews, and yet no one would say Jaime is that close with his kids. The moment he becomes the father figure it's hard for him to open up. He cares for his squires, he even cares for Pia the poor beaten up whore he saves, and he tries to be there for them, but they're always kept at a certain distance.

I like Jaime and Loras’ interactions because they feel more genuine than other interactions Jaime has with his sword brothers of the Kingsguard, but it’s not like they’re really close. The person he’s most vulnerable with, excluding his kin, is Brienne (a person whose father is way more supportive than Tywin, while not exactly being father of the year), and that’s why their relationship is so compelling, at the end of the day, because they are two people who don’t trust easily, and yet they begin to trust each other. They both have high bareers inside of them that they use to protect their hearts, walls that are built on trauma and abuse.

Long story short, I don’t think Jaime hasn’t been affected by Tywin’s parenting, nor by these words specifically. Even if he doesn’t think about them in his POVs. And it’s both because I trust the author of the books I read to remember what they write about their characters, and because maybe I also overanalyse stuff that then I see as evidence.

#ask #anon #asoiaf reread

[miazeklos]

love what you said about the scripts and I think I may be with you on the not-hating-D&D train. on one hand, I appreciate their unapologetic support of JC and all the content we got out of it. on the other, I do think that they fundamentally misunderstood the characters and the overall story, and that made for some questionable creative choices throughout the years. even on the JC front, I’m conflicted. I love having a version of the story where my OTP doesn’t take the beating that they do in the original, but I also think that that beating is essential to their story. I won’t bore you with the intricacies of my interpretation of asoiaf but, suffice to say, I’m not a big fan of D&D’s interpretation. that said, I used to be much more critical of D&D’s writing until I started thinking about GoT like a big budget, canon divergent, lannicest-centric fanfic. which isn’t ideal, but it’s fine. no adaptation could have pleased every subgroup of a huge fanbase and tbh it’s pretty obvious at this point that most people are just parroting the critical talking points as a way to justify the hissy fit they threw over their ships not being endgame. the average audience member doesn’t actually have an ounce of media literacy and you can tell that simply by asking them WHY the things they didn’t like about season eight* fall under “bad writing” and not under “I personally didn’t enjoy this”.

*it’s also ironic how they only ever talk about the final season, despite the fact that GoT’s storytelling problems started around season 3. it’s almost like they don’t know what “bad writing” means and don’t care to find out.

so, that’s it lol. sorry about that long ass rant it’s just that you’re literally one of the first people I’ve seen being critical of the mindless GoT hate.

much love <3

Hello! Honestly, you make a great point about the 'good writing' and 'bad writing' thing being largely affected by whether people actually liked what was happening on screen. I recognise that my own point of view might be affected by that because, again, a good bit of the show was tailor-written for me in a way that the books, as much as I enjoy them, are not, so it only makes sense that I'd approve, and that goes for the people who were dissatisfied, too. To top liking the content, I enjoy their writing style, too, so that helped.

I'd love to hear your interpretation, to be honest! They definitely have a whole different view of the characters, separate from GRRM's vision, and it does occasionally feel heavy-handed in a way fanfic does - and I say that with a lot of love in my heart, because it's what I do when writing those characters, too, even if it's obviously on a much much smaller scale.

IMO the divide mostly stems from the fact that D&D want to present the Lannisters as fundamentally right in their choices and the rest of the narrative is spun around that*, which doesn't happen in the books because, as you said, their harsh/generally bad decisions have much worse consequences in the books and they get away with essentially everything (until the very very last minute) in the show. Tyrion actively gets away with everything, even, and the twins are remembered well, and the narrative shoves all those things in your face really smugly, which, again, I enjoy and was inordinately gleeful about, but I do realise that it's not for everyone.

*One thing that immediately comes to mind is how they said that Dany killing Viserys - who, while terrible, was her caretaker as a child - was one of the earlier signs of something being wrong while also explicitly showing Cersei - who has actively been antagonistic towards her brother for the majority of their lives - sparing Tyrion's life with no real gain from it twice because none of the three of them actually want each other dead. I think one of the Ds specifically said it in the commentary for 8x04, where the above happens, and the parallel shoved my third eye open with a crowbar. I don't even know if it was a conscious decision they made, but it was... telling about why the show's narrative is what it is.

'I used to be much more critical of D&D’s writing until I started thinking about GoT like a big budget, canon divergent, lannicest-centric fanfic' I love that, haha. With a generous sprinkling of Starks! Honestly, at their core, all adaptations are just that, and you really can't win 'em all. I do think that they could have probably been at least a bit more neutral about it, but then I bounce back once I look at even a fraction of the bitter, thinly-veiled misogynistic venom fans a-la r/freefolk spill to this day, and think that this is exactly what they deserve.

That being said, I agree that the characters are fundamentally different in the show from what they are in the books and, as you said, they diverge very early on - earlier than most people would admit, so what happens in the books would have never worked once the show went on its merry way and shaped its own canon, and while the bare skeleton of the ending is very likely the same, I'm sure a lot was lost in the process and was padded with their own bias and 'lessons' for the audience, which are definitely a whole other thing from what he clearly has in mind.

I don't know if that makes much sense, but the thing that D&D had that GRRM didn't when he was in the process of writing was all the material that he has, all at once, so they sidestepped several corners that he's definitely written himself into by just doing something completely different so that they'll have a finished product even if they're done before him - which they, in the end, were. And again, I love that product, but there's no way the rest of the books will follow even remotely the same storyline, other than a few bigger points, and that's fine, too. It's a rather unique situation to be done with the adaptation before the source material and, whatever the latter ends up being, I'm sure I'll enjoy it, even if the show will now always be the true canon in my heart - for no other reason than because I love what it did with the characters, which takes us back to your point about how for most people 'good' or 'bad' is less about the actual quality and more about their tastes.

You don't need to apologise! Especially not since I ranted in response. ;D Much love right back! ;3

#asks #game of thrones #grrm #D&D #got #writing #I guess technically

[luchibelle]

If you’re still doing topics. Do you think you can write about Patchface? I’d like to read your thoughts about what his last prophecy could mean.

Sorry for the delay, hopefully the wait will be worth it. This ask was a gem. On my last reread I quietly complained about Patchface's theories making no sense to me so watch me try and fail to understand this one. But first, allow me to talk about him as a character.

Patchface and prophecies

Patchface isn't human anymore, that part of him drowned in the ocean long ago. He is nothing but a corpse, waiting for his final act. A way for the magic to burst out when the time comes, in a similar fashion to Victarion Greyjoy.

For good or evil? That we cannot know, at least not yet.

Who is behind it? Some people think Patchface is a prophet of the Drowned God, others that he was blessed by R'hllor. The way I see it, they all are just different aspects of the same magic; there is only one source but humans have found different ways to get access to it.

Can his prophecies be trusted? Can anyones'? That's tricky, we should always be careful around them. For what we have seen, in ASoIaF prophecies tend to be truthful, it's the person trying to make sense out of them who misunderstands them, looking at you Melissandre. Patchface and his prophecies seem to be trustworthy, just like the ones coming from the Ghost of Harrenhall; probably because they don't actively seek them out, they just come to them unwanted and are recieved with an open, unprejudiced mind.

That said, it's time for me to be a Melissandre and misunderstand it all for fun.

His last prophecy

(I hope this is the one you meant)

I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

-Jon XIII, ADWD.

Okay, here we go. Jon received a letter from Hardhome that claims there are "dead things in the water" in the previous chapter. Going into the sea and out again sounds like a metaphore for dying and becoming one of those dead things, pressumably the Others.

Patchface says he will lead it, he might either be the first one to fall or, plot twist, be working for the enemy and help them die. It remains unclear but Melissandre would support the latter.

The seahorses reference doesn't mean anything, it looks like GRRM added it for artistic reasons. At most, they might be a reference to their mounts, like the spyders Old Nan told Bran the Others rode.

Finally, change seashells for Joramun's horn. It will announce their coming. The Others are coming. Maybe Hardhome is where the Wall breaks and they pass.

In any case, this is a wild guess and most likely wrong. I try to offer realistic explanations rather than extravagant theories, hopefully that is what I did. Thank you so much for the ask. Feel free to leave an ask or a comment with a fantasy topic for me to discuss any time. Try an anonymus ask if you feel more comfortable.

#asoiaf #asoiaf theories #asoiaf meta #luchibelle answers #patchface #prophecies #adwd #a dance with dragons #a song of ice and fire #grrm #george rr martin #the others #hardhome

[tomakeitbeautifultolive]

hi! I was reading through some of your theories and saw the one where you briefly mention dany "opening her third eye" while she's tripping in the dothraki sea. it got me to thinking about other characters who've had their "eyes opened", like bran when he was in a coma in AGOT and that scene in ACOK where jon is warging/dreaming and he comes across bran as a weirwood tree(?) & tries to get jon to open his third eye right? have any thoughts as to what these scenes say about their arcs? (1/2)

(2/2) have you noticed something like this happening to any other characters? thanks!! I just love reading your thoughts on the books and what will happen, I think they're very well thought-out and accurate

________________________________________

Oh, anon! What a great question that gets me all tingly for canon again. And first, let me thank you for your compliments! I know I tend to think a little outside the box on a lot of aspects about the book... and my theories are not very popular lmao So I'm always over the moon whenever someone actually appreciates them ♥

First, I love that Bran's third eye is literally being pecked open by the crow. But there's a pretty interesting takeaway from his dream:

"He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

Naturally, this makes you think of Daenerys. Bran is basically checking out all the places she's been (plus Asshai), and he specifically mentions dragons. Which is especially curious considering he's being taught how to fly and being told things like "there are different kinds of wings".

"You will never walk again, Bran," the pale lips promised, "but you will fly."

And very much unlike the worst season in television history, I don't think this means just a handful of crows, rather pointlessly, for lack of anything better to do while waiting patiently in the godswood while everyone else saves the world. (What an insult to Bran, I mean come on.)

Now, because of that divisive season, my opinions on Bran and Jon have become suddenly controversial. That said, though I think most people accept that if there really are three heads of the dragon, that Jon, a Targaryen, must be one of them... but the third, in my opinion, is Bran.

And sorry, but... in a book about dragons, "you will fly" better not be about fucking birds.

Anyway.

When it comes to the Others, they're mostly mentioned in Bran, Jon, and Sam's POVs. But then, curiously, after Dany opens her third eye, first thing she does upon waking up is think about the Wall of Westeros. It's a hint that her true business in Westeros isn't what she thinks it is (which right now, is more or less a hereditary calling thrust upon her by Viserys). And that's why Bran got a little glimpse into her world while in his coma - because they're connected too, though perhaps not as strongly or overtly as Jon and Daenerys.

Of course, I believe (with about 70% certainty) that Daenerys and Bran Stark are half-siblings. For me, this gives them a natural connection. I bring this up because it definitely shapes how I interpret a lot of this information. Now, I could be desperately wrong about that theory (as everyone itches to tell me), but what I'm not wrong about - is that Dany is a skinchanger (e.g."A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head"), and how much connection the Starks actually have to dragons. And that's important in the context of Dany opening her third eye and touching Jon/Ghost.

Side-rant: I'm often asked what the point of Dany being a Stark would even be... since for most, it takes away from the story in some way, as they know it. But if the final "boss" of the series is the Night's King - then it would make sense (to me, anyway), that the three people who possess the necessary powers to either defeat or reason with him - all share (Stark) blood with him. I mean, there's a reason Rhaegar Targaryen chose a Stark to make his promised prince with, right? I must reiterate that this doesn't somehow take away the power of Targaryen blood, nor does it make Dany a "rando". What it does is actually subvert expectations.

But back to Bran. Old Nan tells us all crows are liars. Of course, I believe this means the three-eyed crow. I don't know how many of my theories you're familiar with, but, I don't believe R'hllor is an actual god. I think it might just be the Night's King or a very powerful Other. And that's why Bran and the three-eyed crow look like enemies in Melisandre's eyes. And that's why Melisandre wants to burn the weirwood trees - because nothing burns hotter than the cold.

I believe Night's King was who GRRM was referencing with the "a villain is a hero to the other side" quote, not Daenerys (I mean the 'other' side, eh?) This is a race of humans that have been 'othered' to the point where a 700-foot wall was constructed as a protective barrier from them, and they're used as a common curse - 'others take you'. Yet we know that things are never that black-and-white in Planetos.

What exactly happens between the Others and Bran, Dany, and Jon remains to be seen, but there's got to be a reason why Bran's on his way to becoming the most powerful greenseer and learning the truth about the Stark's dark past, and why Dany and Jon have arcs so heavily based around adaptation, conciliation, and liberation...

Whoa, bit of a tangent there. Oops...

As for other characters having these open third-eye moments - Jojen definitely, and absolutely the Ghost of High Heart and Patchface, maybe Old Nan. The only other POV character I can think of would be Jaime, who happened to be resting on weirwood at the time - but that's the only other POV character I can think of - unless you count Melisandre... which honestly, I don't. To her credit, though, she tries real hard, but she's not quite there.

Oh, oh, oh! One last thing. About Jon and his third eye... When he encounters Bran as a weirwood tree, he says:

"Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them."

Makes me wonder if a brush with the 'other side' might be the push Jon needs to open that third eye of his. After all, a brush with death is how it first happened for Bran, eh? I can’t wait to see what the darkness reveals to Jon.

And actually, this brings me back to Daenerys... and let me use this as a chance to shout-out a marvelous meta about all of her connections to gGhosts written by the ever-insightful @tatticstudio55. Please please give it a read! It blew my mind! Here's the link.

Thanks for the ask! ♥

[iheartbookbran]

1/ Okay, this is going to be a bit of a long reply, but do you honestly think Jaime is comparable to Cersei? Cersei has never done a single good thing in her life, has been murdering kids since childhood, and hardly regrets a thing. But Jaime? Like, pre-AGOT, what great crimes has Jaime committed with Cersei, besides incest? It’s pretty clear from Cersei’s POV that she’s been acting autonomously on everything besides conceiving Joffrey. Jaime hasn’t been involved.

2/ Getting into ASOIAF, Bran: yes, totally unforgivable, but a classic trolley situation in which GRRM states most people would do the same. And Jaime has said he’s ashamed in-text, more on that later I presume. Arya: his absolute lowest point, and he acknowledges it as such. It comes at a time when he’s practically out of his mind following Bran, and disturbs the hell out of him later. But hold him to account for sure, this is the closest he ever gets to being like C.

3/ Baby Tully: personally, I think it’s pretty clear in-text that Jaime isn't going to do this. If you look harder at Jaime’s whole relationship with bluffing, the way bluffing is being discussed in these chapters, and Genna, an insightful character, saying Jaime is NOT like his father, it becomes obvious that this is just an ugly attempt at imitating Tywin, complete with trebuchet. It’s dark to threaten this at all, sure, but Edmure is expecting dark so Jaime serves it.

4/ Slut-shaming Cersei - I mean, his thoughts are pretty fucking unpleasant, but… he’s human? This woman has cheated on him, multiple times (and not just as a means to an end, see Taena) whilst asking him to throw away his entire life since he was 15 to remain loyal to her. But sure, let’s just call it slut-shaming lol, Jaime should obviously be proud of Cersei and support her in fucking whoever she likes?

5/ Jaime and consent: GRRM is appalling at writing consent, I totally agree (look at Asha and Qarl)… but he has outright said that the twins’ sex is consensual, whether it looks it or not. You are going to have to use death of the author here if you want to argue that it’s anything otherwise, but by all means call GRRM out for his bad portrayal of it. Tysha: Jaime already knows he was wrong, and it’s plagued him his entire life. But let's not hold him accountable for his dad's extremes.

Oh boy, ok, let’s unpack all this, shall we? Honestly if someone had told me even yesterday that I’d be reciveing Jaime anons out of all the characters, I wouldn’t believe them. Because, again, I’m no renowned Jaime expert and my investment in him extends to... he’s interesting alright, I hope he stays alive long enough so that Bran gets to fling some shit at his face at some point or another in the next two books, but that’s really it.

1. So on the “Cersei has never done a single good thing in her life, has been murdering kids since childhood, and hardly regrets a thing. But Jaime?” part of your ask. I don’t believe there’s much difference on when someone starts committing crimes and it makes it somehow less bad of you don’t begin in your childhood, Jaime could have been attempting to kill/maim children at 13 or at 33 and guess what I would still believe he’s an asshole for it. He’s made choices that involve harming others in the name of maintaining his precious affair with his sister and upholding his family’s crimes, and it doesn’t matter to me when he started on it. This is not a fucking “evilness” point accumulation and Jaime doesn’t get a pass just because Cersei got a head start.

2. “Bran: yes, totally unforgivable, but a classic trolley situation” Sorry, nonny, but did you just compared Jaime pushing Bran from a window so he could continue with his toxic relationship... to the fucking trolley problem? WTF? Jaime, a goddamn adult with critical thinking skills, chose to continue that affair for years and years while having full knowledge of what the consequences of being discovered could be. He chose to be reckless and take his chances anyways. He was between the sharp object and the hard place because he chose to put himself there, and he doesn’t get to say “well I had no other choice” now because he fucking did, for years, he had a choice, and he went ahead with the most selfish one and when the consequences of his actions almost caught up with him, he again choose to be a selfish jerk and harm an innocent bystander, a child, that had no part in any of it. And you could argue that he did it to protect his own children but lmao, Jaime really doesn’t care that much about his children, lbr; just remember how he thinks of Joffrey. Cersei never gave him the opportunity to connect with them that’s true, and he only starts to bond a little with Tommen during aFoC, but I just think that if Jaime truly, sincerely, cared that much about his children’s well-being he could’ve oh idk stopped having sex with his sister??? Instead of being in a position in which he has to ruin a little boy’s life so that he can go on his merry way, even if he feels bad about it, that will never be good enough for me. Jaime had a choice, Bran didn’t.

3. “Baby Tully: personally, I think it’s pretty clear in-text that Jaime isn't going to do this.” I mean, given Jaime’s track record of shoving children from windows so that he can cover his and his own family’s ass, I’m not so sure about that, but fine, that still doesn’t mean that threatening someone with killing their baby so that they will submit to your will any less of a jerk move. I also think you’re kind of missing the point: Jaime here wants to have his cake an eat it too. He tells himself he’s upholding his oath to Catelyn (he really isn’t) while at the same time siding with the fucking Freys and aiding them, he’s basically giving legitimacy to the Red Wedding, the one thing most people agree was a hideous unforgivable act. I just think that if I make the active choice to defend and side with criminals, then I’m not less of a criminal myself.

4. Lol, I made that slut-shaming comment with a clear tongue-in-cheek intent, I obviously know their relationship at present is far more complicated than that, and I do think Jaime has the right to feel betrayed, I just also think that Jaime has this tendency of glorifying Cersei without actually truly seeing her for what she is. At times I almost feel like he considers her the fair innocent maiden to his noble knight, and that’s a big farce to both of them. When Cersei inevitably fails to live up to his expectations he’s shocked, as if he hasn’t known her all their lives.

5. “GRRM is appalling at writing consent, I totally agree” yes of course, he’s the same guy who considers Dany/Drogo consensual, that doesn’t mean I can’t still call it out and see it as a flaw. But even more than that, as you say next: “Tysha: Jaime already knows he was wrong, and it’s plagued him his entire life. But let's not hold him accountable for his dad's extremes.” like, again Jaime recognizing something is wrong and feeling bad about it doesn’t magically absolves him of it. Of course he’s not responsible for his dad’s fuckery but he’s guilty of withholding the truth from his little brother, whom he claims to love, with the full knowledge that it was an extremely traumatic experience for him, and that it had plagued him all his life, while patting himself on the back thinking that’s the right thing to do, and Jaime rationalizes it believing that of course Tysha couldn’t possibly care for Tyrion, so she was doing it for the money, which makes her no better than a whore (because Jaime, too, can be a misogynist UwU). You know, Tyrion has a lot of bad going on for him, but my god he’s 100% right in being furious with Jaime in this situation.

Like as you said, Cersei’s big problem is her lack of empathy, but Jaime’s is his apathy. With some big exceptions like when he killed Aerys and protected Brienne, Jaime’s apathy towards what he fully well knows is wrong and yet choses not to do anything about it is my biggest qualm with him. It’s something I believe GRRM is working with his development, but so far as the story goes, he hasn’t really made any significant turn, so I’m not giving him a gold star for participation. I mean, I realize that I’m the minority here when it comes to my opinion of Jaime, and maybe, nonny, how you and other fans interpret him is how he’s meant to be interpreted, but I don’t care lol. Writing this made me remember what GRRM said...

“Sometimes he felt like showering after writing a chapter about Cersei, though, as her world-view is quite unsympathetic.”—In this article.

I honestly wonder why he had to take a shower for Cersei torturing people (who yes, is a horrible evil person, I’m not trying to defend her), but not for Tyrion strangling a woman or Jaime crippling a child for life, but oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

#well now let’s stop talking about jaime i’m sick of him #better tell me about ur day anon babe #ask #Anonymous #ask pam #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #a song of ice and fire #valyrianscrolls #meta #my meta

[sometimesrosy]

Do you think bellarke not being “confirmed” (like a kiss or a confession) by the end of the series is bad writing/disrespectful to fans? I can appreciate the story without a confirmation but I feel like they almost owe the audience this? Idk what’s your take on this

My take on this is part of why I’m struggling with being part of the 100 fandom right now. The 100 does not owe you confirmation of your ship. They are telling the story of Bellarke, but what they decide Bellarke to be is up to them. If you want to watch the story of Bellarke, it’s up to you to actually PAY ATTENTION TO THE STORY OF BELLARKE, not make up your own.

Everyone seems to feel that they are being disrespected by the show telling the story of the show. And I have a problem with this. I feel like the fandom is disrespecting the story by not letting it BE the story it is. I’m the first person to say that this IS the story of Bellarke, this is what we’ve been watching all this time and they have NOT betrayed that. They have continued to tell Bellarke for 6 seasons and every season they have gotten closer and deeper and more intimate and more epic. The love story that IS Bellarke is far more beautiful to me than what the fandom is demanding. If the story had pulled away from Bellarke at any point, I might have said that it was not going there. That they changed their minds or I was wrong. But it’s not. Every season the Bellarke love gets MORE. And every season when I see who they are at the end, I think it is more beautiful and more intense, even when it is also painful.

If this were a romance genre show, which requires, as part of its genre, that there be a HEA (happy ever after) where the love interests get together, then NOT getting together is a betrayal of the genre/audience/expectations. Although I’d like everyone to remember that Pride and Prejudice never had Elizabeth and Darcy get together, and the first confession resulted in an ABSOLUTE DESTRUCTION of the romance relationship and it wasn’t until the very last scene that we got a marriage proposal and acceptance. 

As this is NOT a romance genre show, and is instead a post apocalyptic science fiction action survival show.... a HEA is NOT a requirement. 

HOW they define Bellarke is UP TO THEM. What the endgame is IS UP TO THEM. Romance can definitely be an element of post apocalyptic science fiction survival shows, but the expectations are not the same for the genre. With the mythic and tragic element to this story, a HEA is ABSOLUTELY NOT GUARANTEED. And for the fandom to require it is an imposition on their part. Sorry. 

We as the fandom don’t get to decide for them how this story should end. And to think we do is rather offensive.  Do you know? That’s where I think the disrespect is. When someone is telling a story, you let them tell it. You don’t demand your version. 

Maybe people consider this perspective to be old fashioned, but this is my belief. Everyone should get the chance to TELL THEIR STORY. And this is what I want to encourage. it’s one of the reasons I love fanfiction because it’s a freedom to write your own story and tell your perspective and desires and fears. The more people who tell their story, the more perspectives we get. And I would defend the right of EVERYONE from beginning teen age writer to broadcast show runner. 

The flip side of the directive to TELL YOUR OWN STORY is that we need to have an audience that listens when people tell their own story, because otherwise what’s the point? It’s not just about seeing yourself in the stories, it is ALSO about learning about other people’s stories, listening when people tell their version of the world. Sharing. being open to other perspective. So that means the flip side is LISTEN TO THEIR STORY.  

When I listen to the story of The 100, and the bellarke story within The 100 story, I do not see a story that is missing anything. I do not see a story that is a betrayal of the audience, the expectations or itself. I see a story where a kiss or confession is NOT the culmination of their love. He just saved her life with NOTHING but his love. How could you possibly be disappointed by that? How could you feel cheated? I guess because fandom is more interested in romance genre which requires kiss/confess/sex? Or soap operas, which require melodrama in regards to romance and sex everywhere? 

Listen. Do I WANT them to kiss? Yes. Of course. Am I frustrated that story goes so slow? Sure. But as I’m watching the show, I can see it is STILL developing and growing and getting deeper. We are not at the endgame. We are building the endgame. I don’t have a guarantee that they will get a HEA. I don’t have a guarantee that it won’t be last minute like P&P. I don’t have a guarantee that their love won’t be tragic and someone sacrifices for the other. I don’t have a guarantee that their love won’t be a particular myth like sun/moon who never get together (although since they are getting closer it would seem that they ARE not in a static orbit but heading for connection, in the case of binary stars I think that might meet in supernova, creation of a new galaxy and all that.)

To top it all off, I don’t like it when people ask me to make judgments on what I haven’t seen yet. And yet, the fandom does that ALL THE TIME. Like, you want me to feel betrayed by an eventuality that hasn’t happened yet and may not ever happened. No wonder you all think JR is your enemy. You’ve got him set up to be betrayer when he hasn’t done anything yet. You’re just PROJECTING that he’ll do that. 

I mean, I’ve seen people say he’s just like D&D and will ruin The 100 the way they ruined GOT, but I don’t see that happening. I see resolutions of storylines that pull on the entire history of the show. I see all those parallels as they bring important elements back into play. I see characters working through their trauma and growing stronger.... none of this happened on GOT. Or, it started to and when they got to the end of GRRM’s story, they dropped it all. Which tells us that the structure and meaning of the story was coming from the author while the flash and dazzle was coming from the showrunners. And when they lost the support of the author, their story fell apart. The 100 has been JR’s baby from the start and the story HIS, and he’s refused to allow other people to push him from his story even when it caused problems. 

But here’s the thing. If GOT had ended with the same people dead and the same people on the thrones, they COULD have made it a satisfactory ending. There’s no way to tell if it works or doesn’t work until you get the story. They COULD have tied it into the prophecies. They COULD have worked an epic tragedy, instead of dropping character arcs and forcing them to BECOME what they were all fighting against. They could have had them facing their pain and growing, even if they lost. That’s why Lyanna’s story and Theon’s story felt right and Dany’s and Jon’s and Jaime’s stories felt wrong. They could have USED the spirituality and magic they set up for Bran to make him a powerful scary king instead of “weird.” (that’s the worst. he’s not weird. he’s magic. do they even LIKE fantasy?) They could have made Sansa be a STARK instead of turning her into a Cersei-Littlefinger hybrid. Lyanna Mormont was a better Stark than Sansa. BUT THEY DIDN’T. The ending could have worked if they had valued the journey they took us on. THAT’S the betrayal. And the funny thing IS, I got all my endgames on that show. Jon and Dany. Arya and Gendry, Brienne and Jaime... got the kisses. got the sex scenes. got the confirmation. Did that stop them from betraying the audience???? NO. BECAUSE BONING IS NOT STORY.

Bellarke is the STORY of The 100. One of them. And we have not been betrayed. To be honest, I felt more hurt by the finales of seasons 2 and 4 than the finales of seasons 5 and 6 which gave us all the fandom outrage. Because in THE STORY Clarke and Bellamy are TOGETHER, closer and more epic than before. To be honest, they are practically one soul in two bodies at this point... they are being WRITTEN as soulmates. This isn’t just being told to us by word of god, you can SEE it. Clarke lived on, for six years with Bellamy’s soul inside of her. And Bellamy lived on with hers inside of him. And when she was body snatched, Clarke could reach out and contact HIM and when she was murdered inside her mind, he REACHED IN AND PULLED HER OUT. 

And y’all are pissed off because Bellamy is still “technically” with someone he can barely have a decent conversation with? And spends no time or energy on? 

I can’t listen to the complaining anymore. The story we HAVE is so good. And everyone is like BUT THE BONING!!!! BETRAYAL IS LACK OF BONING!!!!!

We aren’t misinterpreting this story. There are things we are misinterpreting, like the imagined war between Clarke and Spacekru, or Echo being a bad guy. Or Clarke being a bad guy. We’re imagining a shipwar too. B/E vs B/C. That doesn’t exist. Echo and Clarke are not enemies. They are not opposites. They are not good vs evil. Echo doesn’t have to be bad because Bellarke belongs together. B/E isn’t toxic. Taking Josephine into the woods was not a sign that Bellamy turned his back on his people. But we aren’t misinterpreting that Bellarke is the center of the story.

And I’m not going to say the story is betrayed by projecting my own speculation and blaming it on JR. Not sure anyone can tell their own story if we can’t tell the difference between OUR story and someone else’s story.

#ugh rant

[tidustargaryen]

Honestly, do you think Jon was right to kill Thorne, Olly? Jon's fans will answer yes, and that's perfectly normal. They kill your favorite character, for reasons that make no sense to you being given that Jon did the right thing. Yes he was right to save the Freefolk, because we know what's behind the wall, we know what happens when the Night King kills Freefolk'people.

The question is: Do Thorne and Co. know it? Most do not believe in the WW, and it's totally normal, if I come to tell you that I saw the Night King in my garden will you believe me? Others know that there are of course strange things beyond the wall, others know that the WW exist but are not totally convinced of the threat until they see it in front of them, like Dany, like the Starks during the battle of Winterfell.

For them, Jon let pass savages, who will kill, plundering and rape the people of Westeros. The women of their families, the children, like Olly who saw his family being killed and then devouring.

You think Olly was wrong to kill Jon? After what he saw? After he witnessed the horrors made by Freefolk without knowing the threat or believing the existence of the WW?

For these traitors, because yes, they still betrayed their commanders, but they had circumstances to do so, but for them, Jon allowed the main enemy, against whom Night's Watch was created, according to what they believe, to pass the wall, to enter the lands of the kingdom to perpetuate the murders, the rapes and the pillages and they are right to believe it, being given that when Tormund and Ygritte have to pass the wall, they have destroyed at least one village.

It's the same for Jaime, he's killing the Mad King, he betrayed his oath, his king, but for good reason, because the Mad King was going to explode the city. He is still an Oathbreaker, but he did what was right for him, for us too. But not for others, for others, he was a Kingslayer, a man without honor.

Jon did what was right for him, for us, just as Thorne and Co. did what was right in their eyes.

It's the same for Mirri Maz Duur, I hate what she's actually doing because she did it against my favorite character, because of her, Dany is cursed, she lost her husband and child.

But, I know that she has also done what is right for her, her people have always suffered Dothraki violence, murder, looting, rape, slavery. She just wanted to save her people, they are very faithful, and the stallion who mount the world was a great danger to them.

I'm still pro Dany but I still know that Mirri had her reasons, reasons that make no sense for Dany, but Mirri did what was right for her people.

Dany, in burning her, did what is right for her betrayal, her husband and child'deaths.

As GRRM said, not everything is white or black, and what seems right to you may not be in someone else's eyes.

And it's the same for Jon and Dany.

That's why i write this. You say: The fans of Dany / Jonerys show their true colors, they do not like Jon but I return you this sentence ...

Jon / Jonerys fans, do you really like Dany? Or is she just a beautiful woman that Jon needs to empty his balls?

It's the same problem, from your point of view you're right, you think it's just what Jon did, I think it's not.

Jon did to Dany what Thorne and Co. did to him. He hated what his brothers did to him... but he did that to a woman he pretend to love ? (Yeah fuck you D&D or George if he make the same ending for Jonerys)

As I explained: Thorne and co did what they did because from their point of view, Jon had betrayed Night's Watch, they wanted to punish him and then I guess they would have done what was necessary to the Freefolk goes back beyond the wall.

Jon betrayed Dany because he wanted to save his family, yes he does not approve what she did to KL, but that's when Tyrion raised the threat against his sisters (especially Sansa because she revealing Jon's kinship, which led to Varys' assassination attempt on Dany) that Jon reconsidered the murder.

Was it fair? It's up to everyone. I'm sure for Dany, including her followers, it's Jon the traitor, Jon is wrong. For those who are on the side of Jon, he made the right choice.

Should he kill her? I think not. Do you seriously think he was not able to stop her without killing her? He could imprison her, he made the worst choice. It was not only his queen, it was his aunt, it was his lover. You tell me seriously that he had only one choice, and that was to kill her?

Jon made the wrong choice, the worst choice. And that's why people who love Dany, even if Dany is not necessarily their favorite character, can love Dany and favor Jon or another character, defending her. The people that Dany kill, those are the same people who died all along the show. Extras, people without names. I have never seen anyone complain about lost innocent lives. Do you think that the soldiers who died during the Battle of Blackwater with the Wildfire, Tyrion's plan, deserve it? 

They were soldiers, certainly, but some, or a lot, have no choice, they have to fight for their Lords, otherwise they are executed. They were innocent just like the people of KL. But I do not see anyone insulting Tyrion.

And this is one of many examples, it is always Dany who is wrongly accusing for her choices. You honestly think that if Tywin, Stannis, Cersei and even Jon, if they had dragons, you think they would not use them? Jon would certainly use them to take over Winterfell. And no one would be sorry. Everyone would have been happy. Because it was revenge. It was good to kill the Boltons, the Lannisters, the Freys.

But not the slavers? You think that's what slavers do is good ? They crucified 163 children .... children .... and people cry because these same slavers found themselves in turn crucify?

When Arya makes cooking recipes with humans, is that right?

That a father, despite all the horrors he has been able to do, deserves to eat his own children?

Yes ? So slavers also deserve to be crucified as they crucified the children.

But Dany was always blaming for the justice she has done. Why ? Because she is a woman? Because she's not a Stark? And that she is the daughter of the Mad King? Because a woman should not have so much power?

Daenerys did not deserve to die, otherwise, almost all the characters in the show deserve it.

She did not deserve to die from the hands of the man she loves, during a kiss, after promising her help to the North, she made the right choice, but she did not have to help .... If she had refused to help Jon, she would have been criticizing for being selfish, thinking only of the Iron Throne. But she was also criticizing for helping, no matter what she did, during that season she was losing.

I hate this season because the authors did everything to make people hate Daenerys, they wanted to force the viewer's mind by completely forgetting the logic of their story. The only goal, to make believe that Daenerys is crazy and evil.

I am proud to say that, for my part, they have not succeeded. They will not have succeeded in forcing my mind to think that Daenerys deserved this fate, after the crappy life she had, after the flight to the free cities, the famine, the violence of her brother, the rape, the slavery, the scorn of men, and all that she had to endure, she did not deserve to be killed by the man she loves.

Yes I am angry against Jon, and it is a human reaction, to kill this woman for a kiss while he had no choice! He did what Thorne and Co. did to him, he hated being betrayed for passing the Freefolk south of the wall, he hated the betrayal of his brothers, and he did the same thing to Dany?

But Dany deserves it for what she did?

I don’t care, I don’t care about the people of KL, the same people who applauded the death of Ned Stark, who licked the feet of the Lannisters, who spit on Yara, applauded Euron, who have, for all the trouble she did, spit and insult Cersei during the march of shame, she made bad choices to protect her family, but I think no one deserves to be humiliated in public as she was. Nobody.

Yes, of course, from my personal point of view, I will love that Dany does not kill innocent people, but she did not suffer enough? The rejection of people when she comes to help the North, she lost a dragon to help Jon, if she had let him die beyond the wall, you'd be happy? No. If she had let him die during the battle at Winterfell would you be happy? No. Dany save Jon, and what did he do? He rejected her, because she’s his aunt ? The incest in medieval times shocked anyone ... except between parents / children, brothers / sisters (Except in Targaryens family), and among the Targaryens and even among the Starks it is common, the grandparents of Jon were cousins ​​and on the side of the Targs, brothers and sisters .... Moreover, he slept with Dany while he knew that she was descended from a family where they were almost all incestuous, her parents are brother and sister. Sorry but I do not sleep with a guy whose whole family tree is incestuous, it repels me, because incest is wrong and disgusting in modern time, but not in medieval era. Jon did not mind, because in medieval times, for people it was normal. As normal as it is abnormal for us now. But once he knows that Dany is his aunt he is disgusted? It does not make sense.

But hey, let's say it's normal to be disgusted ...

This does not prevent him from going to see Dany, to comfort her, to defend her against the ingratitude of the Starks and the North, to console her, to tell her that he is sorry for the death of Missandei, Rhaegal, the dragon he was riding ... To be simply a support for her, not just a loyal subject who behaves like a robot ... He could have stopped her before she does that when she says "Let it be fear" ... It's still a big clue to what she's going to do: reign in fear. So do bad things, and he does not do anything to stop her? While later he does not hesitate to kill her?

It's not just the murder of Dany, it's all this series of events, all this bashing on her character that is disgusting, and while we were waiting for comfort in the scenes of Jonerys, we have that ? Jon rejected her? Jon killed her? 

We have the right to be angry, angry towards D & D, towards Varys, Tyrion, Sansa, the North the Starks and Jon.

But you do not understand that. Jon live north of the wall, time will heal his wounds, he may find another woman, will have children, since the bastard does not count with Freefolk, he will finally be happy, with friends, Ghost. Yes he is not King, so what? You think that's what he wanted? ShowJon? No, he would have been unhappy.

I loved Jonerys, I love Jon's story, he's a hero, I'm proud of what he did for Freefolk, because fuck xenophobia, but I can not forgive what he did to Dany. She is my favorite character, far ahead of everyone else, and I hate all those who have hurt her during this season, almost everyone except the dead on her side, even Drogon did not avenge her mother, even the Dothraki, while it is their customs to avenge their Khal / Khaleesi, even the Unsullied don’t. They jailed Jon, why Jon did not imprison Dany, why he did not give her a more dignified death than kill her during a kiss, by surprise, seriously, Jon show more respect during the execution of Thorne and Co., allowing them the last words, he gives them more honor than he gives to Dany ...

It is unfair !

But frankly, what if it was Jon? Frankly, if Jon had lost his family, Ghost, if his lover had rejected him, if he had lost everything, if he was totally alone, if this whole season was not a bashing of Dany but Jon and that Dany ended up killing him coldly during a kiss, would not you hate Dany?

#daenerys targaryen #jon snow #season shit 8 #it's long #very long #i will say i'm sorry but i'm not #it may not be read anyway