#this show had so much potential in terms of queer characters and storylines and it just shat on them all | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

moonlightsapphic · 11 months

Text

Y'all, I find the reception of XO, Kitty so dissapointing.

TL; DR: The underlying homophobia/biphobia/lesbophobia/misoginy towards Yuri as potential and viable endgame which I don't think would have happened if she were yet another hot guy.

The straight-baiting marketing of this show was absolutely genius and I loved that Jenny Han, who writes the straightest central romances to ever romance (To All the Boys I've Loved Before, The Summer I Turned Pretty), actually initiated a series with such visibly queer storylines and then literally jumped into this sort-of-interracial, sapphic romance centered around a bi+ character. I could see Han trying to be more inclusive in her past on-screen works, but this was incredible.

No you don't understand. There was this point midway through the show where I thought I was in a fever dream and watching wishful fanmade content because I couldn't believe an IRL Netflix show could actually give us this. My mind was blown.

So you'll understand that I was fully bamboozled to see that social media is swamped with Min-ho fangirls pretending like Yuri doesn't even exist. I love Min-ho too, but am I the only one who also saw so many signs that point to a future Yuri x Kitty?

First, for the narrative satisfaction of their moms being best friends in the past!

... and to complete Kitty's coming of age! Kitty, growing up in the cisheteronormative Song-Covey household, made the oversight of initially operating under the assumption that she exclusively likes boys and that she has mastered the art of relationships. That's already been debunked partway by her breakup with her first boyfriend who was supposed to be endgame, and is only going to be sealed further if she ends up with a girl in a long-term relationship. (And no, of course she doesn't have to "end up" with a girl for her queer identity to be valid, but I think it just makes the most narrative sense to have that unfold in the story as her worldview alters.)

Here I present to you: my pet peeves in the XO, Kitty fandom

hyping up parallels between Peter x LJ and Minho x Kitty scenes claiming that this means Minho x Kitty may be endgame. They literally have to reach and dig for those because the most parallels are between Peter x LJ and Yuri x Kitty, right from the scene that they bumped into each other! Kitty has also shown zero romantic interest in Minho so far, as opposed to her very keen interest in Yuri.

People finally addressing the elephant in the room like "Ugh, Yuri is probably going to be endgame. 🙄 I want Minho instead!!" like it's such a disappointing or borderline gross outcome. Yuri is a much more intense enemies-to-lovers character than Minho. She is beautiful, kind, and fun with a little bit of bite, everything that Minho is plus Kitty is falling for her hard.

Being real here—If you think Yuri is a boring love interest or kind of a b*tch while Minho is simply a fun old enemies-to-lovers character, I am begging you to check your biases. You, a straight woman, may only see hostile fictional women as competitiion and hostile fictional men as ... well, kinda hot. However, Kitty is bi+ and she could see them both as viable romantic interests, equally. Yes, Yuri has done more malicious things than Minho, but then again she has had a harder time this academic year than Minho. You are obviously still allowed to like Minho better, as long as you're not dismissing the struggles of and flattening a strong female character. Misoginy and homophobia make an ugly combo, y'all. Trust me, you don't want any part in that.

(Additional unpopular opinion: I'm going to get crucified for this but I genuinely think Kitty is too boring for Minho in the same way that Dae was too boring for Kitty. He seems to be into her only from the Halo Effect. Minho is my child and I squeal whenever he's on screen and I hope to see him finding someone actually fun!)

Saying that Kitty’s crush on Yuri was just a token plot point with no real basis or depth. While there is some unrealistic family drama in the show, it's all still credible. Fiction is supposed to bring in imaginative elements and try to keep things grounded. Regardless, I'm never going to be the person who says that a wild and shocking bi- or gay-awakening is unrealistic. As a queer person, let me tell you that it is just as wild and confusinh for us IRL.

Besides, many cishet people actually do not care if (or is hateful when) the MC is bi, that I doubt how much it “helps” with marketing. (That's why queerbaiting exists, folks.) Also, have you seen Kitty in TATBILB? That's a bi preteen right there if I've ever seen one.

"Stop trying to invalidate other people's ships!" I will say this once: I don't care if you ship Kitty with Min-ho, or Dae, or anyone else that's not Yuri. I DON'T CARE! Frankly, good for you because straight ships have better luck out there anyway, ya know? I am simply begging you to not reduce a queer person's nuanced concerns about dismissal of sapphic fictional characters to petty fandom arguments. Read the room, guys. Please.

This is such a crucial show to many of us. I just want y'all to understand that this is just a little bigger than your celebrity crush on a hot guy whose character you're rooting for. We never, ever get contemporary slice-of-life romcom sapphic rep (and Netflix is notorious for cancelling sapphic shows, too). Please don't be dismissive of a perfectly good possible ending! We want to give Netflix every reason to renew this show, and give Han every reason to allow Kitty to flourish just the way she plans to! (This is me begging y'all to not influence the writers into swerving last-minute towards a sloppy Minho endgame, though I do trust her better than that.)

I hope that Netflix renews the show, even if it's through the excitement of straight people in denial LMAO. And then I hope it treats us with a glorious sapphic ending.*

*(Aaaand I can already imagine the cishet women in the audience complaining online about what a terrible person Kitty is for leading Min-ho on and then dumping him, and how she and Yuri are both awful and totally deserve each other. Music to my ears.)

119 notes · View notes

sammysdewysensitiveeyes · 1 year

Note

15, 34, 45 (for Pyro)

15. Tell me about a plotline that could have been interesting if anyone else wrote it.

Of course, I wish anyone other than Duggan had written Pyro's stint on Marauders, except maybe Sina Grace, who had Pyro make a cameo in the Iceman series just so Bobby could kick his ass and call him a washed-up loser. (Fair, but not how I want to see Pyro used as main cast member). I actually liked some of what Duggan did with Pyro, there were some good or funny moments, I just wish he was in the hands of a writer who took him seriously as a character or acknowledged any of his past history. I mean, he put Pyro on a boat delivering medicine to sick humans and gave him some vague crumbs of a redemptive storyline, and did not once make ANY mention of Pyro's Legacy Virus experience (even though it would have made perfect sense and built into the idea of redemption), or his heroic death saving Senator Kelly. There was so much potential in Marauders to DO something with Pyro that was genuinely interesting, and Duggan just left most of that on the floor. Pyro on Hellions under Zeb Wells would have been great, at least Wells knows how to write a balanced team book.

Also, after Pyro was revealed to have the Legacy Virus, and was staying on the island refuge of Empyrean (supposed charitable billionaire, actually a mutant villain who wanted to exploit the virus to gain power), the story of Empyrean showing his true colors could have been genuinely interesting. Showing the Brotherhood and Pyro himself having a falling out with Empyrean, because even though Pyro is a selfish bastard he doesn't want to see more mutants infected with Legacy, could have been a great story, but instead Empyrean was written out of Marvel continuity and left stranded in dinosaur times (official scientific term) in a Burger King tie-in comic.

34. Which retcon do you hate the most?

Obviously Pyro switching from English to Australian.

Nah, just kidding. I don't know if Pyro getting essentially "straight-washed" after the obvious and deliberate queer-coding by Byrne counts, but if it does, then that for sure. Or Duggan treating Jean Grey as Pyro's dream fantasy, although I still maintain that says much more about Emma, who was projecting the fantasy into Pyro's mind, than Pyro himself.

I'd also maybe say Duggan's re-imagining of Pyro as a drunk fratboy, but what the hell, Pyro's been portrayed as a violent idiot by other writers before. At least it was a fun version of Pyro, with more focus and depth I would have fully enjoyed it.

45. What’s the worst take you’ve seen about [x] (popular or not)?

Someone once called Pyro a would-be rapist, and their example was that one shitty issue of Daredevil where Blob and Pyro are being really gross about a mutant girl they are capturing. Even though there's no real evidence in the comic that Pyro actually did or tried to do anything with the girl, beyond just capture her for Freedom Force, and Blob is actually much grosser in his behavior. Pyro just seems to be paying lip service to the whole "oh yeah, pretty girl," thing, and is much more interested in fighting Daredevil. Also, the blog discussing the issue that this person linked for "evidence" was even saying that they thought Pyro and Blob were OOC in this issue. Like, I will gladly acknowledge all the ways that Pyro is and has been a piece of shit in the comics. He's vicious and mean, and he kills people quite gleefully at times. But he has barely shown any interest in women at all throughout his history, and he's not a character I would write as being a sleazy sex-pest or sexual assaulter because...he just isn't. The closest he comes is one scene of Ultimate Pyro suggesting sexual assault of a female hero, which made no sense even in that universe because Ultimate Pyro had previously been written as a good guy (it was during the absolute shit-show that was Ultimatum, where Blob also became a cannibal), and that one Daredevil issue. And I guess Pyro comically flirting with Rogue in TAS? Honestly, if your evidence of Pyro as a potential rapist is one OOC story in a non-X-Men book where the "rape" is vaguely implied at best, it's pretty flimsy.

Also that one person who claimed it was "canon" that Pyro had a crush on Kitty, based on an excerpt from his romance novel with a female character who doesn't resemble Kitty at all.

#pyro #st john allerdyce

18 notes · View notes

mediaevalmusereads · 5 months

Text

A True Account: Hannah Masury's Sojourn Amongst the Pyrates, Written By Herself. By Katherine Howe. Henry Holt, 2023.

Rating: 3/5 stars

Genre: historical fiction

Series: N/A

Summary: In Boston, as the Golden Age of Piracy comes to a bloody close, Hannah Masury – bound out to service at a waterfront inn since childhood – is ready to take her life into her own hands. When a man is hanged for piracy in the town square and whispers of a treasure in the Caribbean spread, Hannah is forced to flee for her life, disguising herself as a cabin boy in the pitiless crew of the notorious pirate Edward "Ned" Low. To earn the freedom to choose a path for herself, Hannah must hunt down the treasure and change the tides.

Meanwhile, professor Marian Beresford pieces Hannah’s story together in 1930, seeing her own lack of freedom reflected back at her as she watches Hannah's transformation. At the center of Hannah Masury’s account, however, lies a centuries-old mystery that Marian is determined to solve, just as Hannah may have been determined to take it to her grave.

Content Warnings: violence, reference to disordered eating, blood, gore

Overview: This book was on a "most anticipated" list for 2023 historical fiction. I love a good pirate story, so I figured I'd go ahead and grab a copy. There were some things that I found fun about this book, but I ultimately felt I couldn't give it a higher rating because A.) the 1930s storyline didn't feel purposeful, and B.) there wasn't much about Hannah's story that made it feel fresh. Still, if you're looking for a swashbuckling treasure hunt, you may like this book; personally, I just wanted something a little meatier.

Writing: Howe's prose is fairly literary and full of evocative description. I wouldn't call it lyrical or purple, but it does have some lovely atmospheric passages and apt metaphors. The prose also flows fairly well and appropriately balances showing and telling. Occasionally, I felt like there was some overuse of questions to further the suspense, but that's probably personal preference - I'm not a fan of the technique.

My main complaint, however, is that I didn't feel like Howe incorporated her themes well, and a lot of her potential commentary or messaging got lost. If this book was supposed to be about (queer) women living life on their own terms, it really didn't feel like Howe gave her characters much drive to do that. Hannah was bound by secrecy in order to protect herself, and Marian felt like she was constantly seeking approval from her father. If the book was supposed to be about something else, well... I think Howe could have worked in her themes a little better, and doing so would have created a stronger link between Hannah and Marian.

Plot: The plot of this book follows two timelines: 1.) In the 18th century, tavern maid Hannah Masury disguises herself as a boy and sets sail with notorious pirate Ned Lowe after getting caught up in a murder; 2.) In the 1930s, Professor Marian Beresford combs through Hannah's account for clues as to the location of a pirate treasure in the Caribbean.

Hannah's adventure was fun, hitting all the beats one would expect from a pirate story. There wasn't much about it that set it apart from other pirate tales I've read, but even so, I had a good time reading it. I do wish that the treasure hunt had been a little more symbolic or was a means to a different end; looking for treasure in itself because it is treasure is a little dull unless you're playing around with themes such as greed and ambition, but Hannah's story didn't feel like it was doing that.

Characters: Hannah, our 18th century protagonist, is fun to follow and fairly easy to root for, but I think I would have liked her better if she had shown more agency. I was very sympathetic to her plight and hoped she would do well aboard the pirate ship, but I was also a little frustrated because Hannah didn't seem to have any particular desires or skills. As a result, I didn't feel like she was making her own way in the world, just reacting to it. She didn't seem to have a strong desire for freedom, and her attitude towards sea life was rather neutral. I couldn't tell if she wanted to help find the treasure because she had a strong desire to live independently or if she went along with the hunt because she was pulled along on the adventure.

Marian's narrative was altogether different. While I had a lot of fun with Hannah, Marian's story felt slow and without purpose. I couldn't determine why it mattered so much that Hannah's account was real or made up (as a lit PhD, I see value in studying fiction from the past), and I had a hard time believing that a checked out professor would agree to take an undergraduate on a treasure hunt. I also didn't hold much affection for Marian herself, so that might have influenced my attitude as well.

Above all, I found the ending something of an anti-climax. When we learn about Marian's student and her motivations, I couldn't help but feel it was a little contrived. It also reflected badly on Marian and made me think even less of her as a supposed academic and historian.

Marian, our 1930s protagonist, is a little hard to like because she seems disconnected and sometimes callous. While I could get invested in an arc where she starts out disconnected and becomes more engaged, Marian didn't really seem to "come alive" with academic enthusiasm once she read Hannah's account. Oh, she wanted to find the treasure, but I didn't believe that she cared one way or the other about it as it related to her work. Marian also didn't use the treasure hunt as an opportunity to escape from the oppressive aspects of academia, and even if academia was supposed to be oppressive, we aren't shown how (other than maybe it being boring). Thus, Marian's reasoning for wanting to pursue the treasure was unclear; at times, she seemed to have a mild curiosity, and at others, she seemed to want to boost her reputation. She does say that she wants to prove herself to her father, but I wasn't sure what she was trying to prove since she didn't seem to care about her historical work or her teaching. Not even her queer subplot feels high stakes because she doesn't really seem to care about her job (and thus, losing it by being outed wouldn't be the worst thing in the world), nor did I get the sense that her queerness was what caused the rift with her father. Marian also feels somewhat hypocritical in that she criticizes her student, Kay, for divulging information about their treasure hunt to the press, but Marian herself blabs about all kinds of details when confronted with 2 reporters.

Supporting characters were perfectly fine, though my opinion of them varies. I very much liked Seneca, the quartermaster, whose backstory hints at being an escaped slave and who takes Hannah under his wing. Seneca's motivations are mysterious, but it's evident that he's a good man, even if he's a pirate. I disnt quite buy his relationship with Hannah towards the end of the story, but its such a small part that I dont think i can complain too much.

Ned Low, on the other hand, didn't strike a very imposing figure. He was capricious and violent, but rather than make him stand out, such changeability only made it hard to get a handle on him. As a result, I felt like he was something of a non-entity, just a vehicle for senseless violence. The same was true of Will Fly; while his hanging supposedly has a bug impact on Hannah, it didn't have much of an impact on me, the reader, so I wasn't convinced that he was important.

TL;DR: A True Account is a rather middling pirate story with a fun yet surface-level adventure at the heart. Despite one POV character being unlikable and the 1930s plot being rather empty, the swashbuckling story was enjoyable enough, and it may appeal to lovers of pirate tales.

The 1930s supporting characters were also somewhat varied. Kay, Marian's student, was initially likeable for her enthusiasm and her desire for adventure. Over time, however, she became ridiculous. She grated on me when she blabbed to the press, and her motivations for seeking adventure felt a little far-fetched (surely there are better ways and why would the Press care so much about a random student anyway?).

Marian's father also didn't feel like much of a person. He's a famous explorer, but there wasn't much about his characterization that made me sympathize with Marian's desire to earn his approval. I wasn't dazzled by his exploits or by his knowledge of pirate history, and there weren't any anecdotes that hinted at an emotional rift between father and daughter. He just kind of seemed to be there, and he was only important because he was funding the expedition.

4 notes · View notes

sevensoulmates · 3 months

Text

Aight...here's my thoughts on the season 6 finale. As a SEASON finale, yeah it was pretty decent. I enjoyed the bridge collapse as an emergency and I thought that the season character arc culmination was where it needed to be for most of the characters with two notable exceptions.

This is about to be long, so if you want to read my ranty thoughts, it's under the cut:

Now, if this actually ended up being the SERIES finale? It would've been Okay for everyone with the big glaring exception of Buck and Eddie.

If they really ended the show this way....dear god I would've been PISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDD.

And not just because "waah! I want buddie!" but because imho it doesn't work for the journey Buck and Eddie are on individually (or together). It felt like the writers were like okay, we may not get renewed after this so we're giving Buck and Eddie the potential for new relationships and that's that. But....these relationships don't actually feel like a "happy ending" or "potential for a happy ending" they feel very much like another stepping stone on a story for these two that is very much incomplete.

If it had ended here, I personally feel like it would've been a metaphorical death for these two characters. In the sense that they're still in the middle of learning what they need, what they want, where they actually want their lives to go. In real life, people die unexpectedly, in their middle of their life, and all of those loose ends never get tied, but in a TV show? The hope is that the writers know where they want the character arcs to go and how and that by the end of the show, they reach a satisfying conclusion to their individual arcs. The season 6 finale was not that. Fuck, the entirety of season 6 was not that. Season 6 felt like a transitionary season, almost like season 1 where the show was still getting its sea legs and figuring out a direction for the characters to go moving forward. Which is bad if this actually ended up being the very last season of the show.

In the show, Maddie, Chim, Bobby, Athena, Hen and Karen are all in much different places in their lives than Buck and Eddie. Everybody else knows who they are as characters, and all of their plotlines don't really revolve around "who am I?" but rather "how does [insert plot line here] fit into who I already am?" For Buck and Eddie, they are still very much on their "who am I?" journey. And it is far from over.

Eddie's character arc in season 6 was very much at the point where he's made it over the big emotional hurdles in his life that revolves around his trauma of losing Shannon, the PTSD of war, the emotional abuse he suffered at the hands of his parents, and the question of whether or not he's a good father for Chris. All that's left is the big "who am I?" and we started to see some of that in his storyline revolving around Chris starting to grow up and gain some independence, leaving space open in Eddie's life to start thinking about what he wants for himself. The show keeps on having external characters harping on Eddie that he needs to get a partner, and he keeps going around in circles with that ever since he started dating Ana. To me, this season did not show me that what Eddie actually needs is a perfect woman to swoop in and make him not lonely. In fact, it's shown quite the opposite. I get wanting Eddie to have something happy at the potential end of the series, but it feels weird given that the WHOLE SEASON the writing kept showing us that jumping back into dating and finding a good woman to settle down with is not actually the solution for him. I can't say whether or not this is setting up for queer realization arc, because I don't work for the show, but in terms of the actual writing itself....there's not much else that makes sense. ((This is also not to say Eddie is fully "healed" of his trauma, he's just in a better place in terms of handling it than Buck at the moment imo.))

As for Buck, the whole sperm donor storyline was a massive regression in terms of his personal journey. It was a trauma response at the very best. To me, Buck has not yet gotten to the point where Eddie is in terms of actually being able to heal his personal traumas and not let that hurt effect his current decisions. He's still very much in the thick of his pain. This sperm donor storyline is very obviously a manifestation of his guilt surrounding being a bone marrow donor baby, not being able to save his brother's life, still feeling like the only time his parents care is when he's injured or helping someone else out, and still feeling like he's the odd one out when it comes to the rest of the firefam who all have their own "individual families". To me, at this point in the series, the only part of Buck's story that has reached its natural resolution is his relationship with Bobby. Those two have worked it through and have reached a point where they can acknowledge how they feel about each other and not let their individual trauma affect their professional or personal relationship.

But good lord, Buck has not actually faced most of the other stuff. And having that baby on his couch was nothing if not a brand new trauma to add to the list. If the series ended with Buck as he is now, I would've been horrifically sad for him. Because literally nothing else of his story was resolved. I hope this is worked through in s7 and beyond.

All I have to say is hallelujah that the show didn't end there and that ABC swooped in and snatched them up. Hopefully with this new found freedom with ABC we can actually start to see these storylines come to their natural progressions instead of just pushing it off later and later until neither of them ever gets a happy ending.

#911 rewatch #season 6 #season 6 finale #season 6 might actually be my least favorite season at the moment #I'm gonna need season 7 to swoop in and fix it #or at least put us on the path to fixing it

3 notes · View notes

clusterbuck · 11 months

Note

I'm the anon you posted about. I'm not saying Hen is a side-character. I'm saying that the number of plotlines for potentially queer characters far exceed those for canonically queer characters. Especially that the increase in plotlines revolves around the potentially queer characters' romantic lives. That's what's happened in s5 and S6 of 9-1-1 which is why I was very careful to specify that I feel 9-1-1 is veering into the trend in RECENT seasons. S6 was very much the Buck show, not because of they way I viewed it but because of the way it was written. S1-S4 of 9-1-1 was amazing in terms of balancing queer and non-queer plotlines. But since s5 and the shift away from Michael, the balance has been skewed. It's been replaced with seemingly overt metaphors and subtext about characters not realising they are queer or that they might already be in a relationship that 'queers' societal norms. We've been following that subtext for two seasons now without much progress in the storytelling.

i mean, you said 911 “perpetuates the safety of having queer side characters”, so

also like. this might well be personal preference, but if it is then it’s a preference i’ve seen a lot of other queer people have too—i’m kinda over queer representation in the form of coming out/self-discovery storylines.

now i’m not saying i don’t think these kinds of stories are valuable (they are) or that i don’t enjoy them (i do), but they account for such a vast majority of queer representation onscreen and on page. which makes sense! most queer people have some kind of feelings about it, so it makes complete sense that when there starts to be more space for queer characters and queer storylines, we start with those stories.

but personally? i’d like to see more stories about queer characters where their queerness isn’t central to the storyline. i want to see queer people just minding their business and living their lives. (kind of like hen’s med school storyline)

i don’t know, i don’t like the idea of saying that potentially queer characters have more plot lines than established queer characters. it kind of feels like once a character is canonically queer, that’s all they get to be. like their character is done developing.

also like. maybe buck had a lot of storylines in s6, but s6 is also the season that dedicated an entire episode to henren (and their getting together). also, the show didn’t shift away from michael on purpose, they had to because rockmond dunbar decided to be a child.

this is already long, but one more thing—do you really think there’s been no progress in storytelling for two entire seasons? like if you want a previously presumed straight character to discover their queerness (which i do!) they have to take steps to get there. which—to me at least—is what the past two seasons have read as. maybe you disagree and that’s fine, that’s your prerogative, but i’m happy with how the storylines have progressed so far and im excited to see how abc picks them up next season ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

#this is not coherent but i have too many thoughts #ask emma

8 notes · View notes

eugeniedanglars · 2 years

Text

Okay, I’ve vagued about this aplenty, but I’m just going to say it: if/when Will’s feelings for Mike aren’t requited in volume 2, I don’t want to see people complaining about how ~Mike didn’t reciprocate so what was even the point~. I know it’s gonna happen, but I don’t want to see it. To paraphrase a mutual of mine who will remain nameless so she doesn’t have to deal with any potential fallout from this post, Mike may be the catalyst for Will figuring out his sexuality and coming out, but that doesn’t mean Will’s storyline is about Mike.

I joke about wanting Will to come out because I predicted it back in August 2016 and have dealt with years of redditors and tvtropers insisting he’s straight and I want to be vindicated and “win at Stranger Things,” but ultimately the actual reason I’ve been so invested in Will being gay is because one of the central ideas of the show ever since season 1 is exploring what it means to be different and how it feels to not fit in. Not to be all “maybe the real stranger things were inside us all along,” but this isn’t just a show about strange things happening, it’s a show about being a strange thing, about feeling like an outsider and a freak and a monster for reasons you can’t control and being told by society that The Way You Are Is Wrong. Do I really have to explain how a character arc about coming to terms with being queer fits into that theme? Especially when this show is set in a small midwestern town in the 1980s? It would frankly be bad storytelling to create a show about being an outcast, set it in the 1980s, absolutely relish in the homophobia of the era, and then have all the characters be heterosexual. Of course one of the main characters had to be queer, and from the beginning, it’s been clear that Will is meant to be that character.

Yes, some of the weight of this storyline has been shunted onto Robin, but even putting aside meta issues like Robin only being introduced in season 3 and not being conceived and written as a gay character the way Will has been, Robin has fully come to terms with her sexuality by the time we meet her and is generally a more confident and self-possessed person than Will—we don't see her struggling with the pressure to be "normal" the way Will does. Robin alludes to feeling that way in the past, talking about how weirdos like her secretly want to be popular and accepted and normal like anyone else, but most of the time, she seems to be okay with who she is and recognizes that the problem is with the society that makes her stay closeted. Will is the one who worries that he’s a freak, who hates being treated like he’s different, and who is still in the process of learning to stand up for who he is rather than who society tells him he should be. Honestly, in retrospect, I think it's brilliant how they've developed Will's relationship to his sexual orientation entirely in the subtext:

In season 1, we don't see much of Will, but we're repeatedly reminded that other people love calling Will homophobic slurs, we see how hard Joyce and Jonathan have to fight to get anyone to care about Will, and in the little screentime he gets, we see that Will is a good, sweet kid who is uncertain of himself, whether it's looking to his friends for advice on dnd actions or having to be told by Jonathan that he shouldn't force himself to like things just because other people tell him it's normal.

Season 2 is when we know for sure that they started writing Will as having a crush on Mike (thank you 2x09 The Gate script!), so we get Mike and Will's relationship directly paralleling Mike's relationship with El in season 1, but in the end, Mike ends up dancing with El at the Snow Ball while Will is left staring longingly at Mike as he dances with some random girl. But also, Will tried to turn that random girl down until Mike told him to say yes! He knows he doesn't want to dance with her and he's no longer asking his friends what he should do in uncertain situations, even if he lacks the confidence to fully advocate for himself when someone tells him to do something he doesn’t want to do! Will may or may not actually realize that he's gay in season 2, but he's definitely aware that something's different about him beyond just being "zombie boy." (Special shoutout to Will calling himself a “freak” with such conviction that you just know he wasn't only talking about the Upside Down stuff!) The subtext in season 2 isn’t exactly heavier than in season 1, but it much more extensively involves Will himself and not just the things people say about him.

Season 3, as much as I gripe about Will's storyline getting cut off too early, does a phenomenal job of showing via subtext that Will knows he's gay but is fighting tooth and nail to avoid dealing with it, hence him being terrified to grow up and begging to play dnd and saying he's never gonna fall in love and having a total meltdown when Mike says the quiet part out loud, that Will doesn't like girls. And yet the season also shows that despite Will's protests, he already is in love, and it's with Mike—the charged moment at the movie theater in episode 1 when Mike asks if he's okay! Looking upset/hiding his face/avoiding eye contact when Mike has his "I love her and I can't lose her again" outburst! Calling romance gross but really it's just Mike and El he seems to find gross, since he's fine with Lucas/Max and Dustin/Suzie and Jonathan/Nancy (outside of that one scene in episode 1, but to be fair realizing that your sibling was definitely having sex with their significant other in your house last night is objectively pretty gross especially when you're 14)! Season 3 is also when the gay Will subtext went from a there-if-you-know-where-to-look thing mostly discussed in fannish spaces to being obvious enough that it became part of the mainstream cultural conversation about the show.

And now we're in season 4 and Will has clearly accepted the reality that he's gay and has feelings for Mike, but he doesn't know how to proceed from there and he’s afraid of his relationships with the people he loves being permanently altered if he tells them the truth and the subtext is teetering on the edge of text and when Will finally comes out it'll be like the narrative itself has come out because both in- and out of universe this thing is finally out in the open after years of being an undercurrent that has gradually gotten stronger and harder to ignore. The growth from light gay subtext to heavy gay subtext to gay text mirrors Will's growth from being unaware of his sexuality to aware-but-in-denial to coming out.

Will coming out isn't about a ship, it's about him accepting that it's okay that he's "different,” finally being ready to grow up, and learning that even the parts of ourselves we have been told are monstrous can be loved. It's a significant part of the show's central thesis that has been slowly and beautifully built towards over the course of years in the subtext, and there are gonna be people who miss all of that because they're too busy being outraged that Mike didn't kiss him.

#you want will to come out because of fan ships #i want will to come out because it's a narrative payoff i've been waiting for for 6 goddamn years #we are not the same #anyway how fucking funny would it be if i wrote all of this and then will doesn't come out #stranger things #st spoilers #gay will

26 notes · View notes

rrandomtthings · 2 years

Note

Hi! I saw your post about SK8 to infinity season 2, and I am excited for it but I’m also worried. I love Langa and Reki relationship and I really hope they become more close in season 2 but I’m just afraid that the director of the show is going to make them fall in love with some girl for the male viewers instead of for eachother. Like the one thing I hate about fujobaot/gay bait is that they’ll make 2 dudes be extremely gay towards eachother and then make them have girlfriends bc they don’t want the 2 dudes to be gay. I wish this was like Yuri on Ice but we haven’t had a show like Yuri on Ice for years. Anyways what’s your thoughts in this?

Hiii !!!! I think those fears are completely valid !!

In terms of renga’s relationship, there is no real way of knowing what will happen with them. There has been proof in the show that Reki does show interest in girls, but that absolutely does not eliminate bisexuality, pansexuality, etc etc. I know the topic of queerbait was HUGE when season 1 was coming out and since then I’ve always been on the side of sk8 not being considered queer bait (atleast from what we have been shown in season 1). Bc, from what we have seen so far, their relationship is being seen as really good friends in the grand perspective. The little things in their relationship that can be perceived as romantic isn’t necessarily romantic. For ex, Langa holding Reki saying that he will protect him isnt inherently romantic. These little scenes are only seen as really shippy if u view it that way

That being said, that absolutely does not eliminate the possibility of there being more. From what we have seen, Langa has confessed feelings for Reki from his talk w his mom (this mf blushed and agreed I just AAA!!!!!! It’s been over a year and I’m still not over it) So there has been foundation laid down for possible romance. The sk8 fandom has a large queer community which definitely contributed in its success and the reason why it was able to get a season 2 in the first place. This is a studio Bones original series, it could have easily been left at 12 episodes. This foundation can definitely be explored in the future and I would love to see that so much. We don’t know what exactly will come out of this season since the last season w Adam completed that storyline. For all we know, this season can be ab Reki and Langa’s relationship and the development there

Personally, I absolutely think that sk8 has the potential of being like Yuri on ice. Like I said, the foundation is there and there have been parallels w renga and victuuri!! I genuinely think that yoi is such a high bar to beat (it’s my comfort anime) so idk if anything can even reach the same level, but the possibility for sk8, esp since it’s already had its first season and we know who these characters are, is still there

Im not worried ab sk8 being queerbait bc I don’t see it as that rn. From season 1, Reki and Langa are just really great friends. If season 2 wants to do more, then great (amazing I want that so bad) !! And if not, then that’s fine. The only time I will have a problem is if they wholeass have a whole ass kiss or romance confession one minute then the next they have gf’s. That’s when we will have an issue, but I’m definitely not too worried ab that as of right now !!

#im so sorry this got so long IZISISI #I miss talking ab sk8 so much it’s been so long aaaaaaaaaaa #sk8 #answered #anonymous #rran.txt

12 notes · View notes

witchybibliophile · 2 years

Text

HEYYYY HSMTMTS PEEPS LMK THOUGHTS ABT S3 FINALE 🤯 alsoo spoiler alert for this entire post - AND pls feel free to dm abt this

cause honestly I’m so disappointed with it aaaaaaahhhh the way they focused more on grand musical numbers than the individual character arcs hurt me for realll. Except for Kourtney’s, Emmy’s, Corbin’s and Nini’s arcs which were honestly pretty near immaculate and I’m so here for them ❤️

But yeah especially Ashlyn, EJ, Gina and Ricky deserved better 🥹

EJ first - Soo EJ’s coming to terms scene with his dad hanging up on him seemed like a small thing to sway him and I’d have loved to see more an aha moment for him after that, like a solo song for instance? Overall I do like the idea of his arc being focused on finally fully letting go of the pressure from his dad and living life authentically for himself, but it wasn’t handled in the best way and I sincerely hope they give us more on this next season.

Gina - I guess this goes quite well after EJ lol, anyways I’m a kinda sad that EJ couldn’t go on his self-discovery journey TOGETHER with Gina and that they’d be that supportive couple more that got through hardships together. There was potential that they’d reconcile this episode for instance after EJ’s dad hung up on him. He could’ve got this epiphany that damn he will fight for who he loves and tell Gina he’s ready to commit to their relationship.

Okay sorry that EJ got into Gina’s arc but honestly I just think this was a missed opportunity with them. Overall Gina was amazing this season standing up for herself as well as being so supportive of EJ in their relationship. The basketball confidence song and playing the leading lady role while also remaining so true and supportive of her friends (esp “sister” Kourtney) were definitely highlights of her arc for me this season.

The moments with Ricky could be interpreted as loaded with romantic tension and him admitting he had feelings for her earlier on kinda foreshadowed where they’d end up. I do like the idea of these two as a couple but honestly giving Gina A MONTH to admit her feelings for him just feels a bit dragged out and inauthentic. Them getting gradually closer and closer as friends only to finally admit their feelings for eachother is what I think I was missing here and what made that final kiss feel a bit hollow to me.

Ricky - I’m happy Ricky decided to dump Lily immediately starting the season and seeing him head back to his true friends did feel right. I love how he supports Jet with his relationship issues with his sister so much ❤️ that was probably one of my fave things abt him this season.

The way he’s always a reliable friend to Gina (I guess conversely to EJ who’s so busy with the whole director thing) is also sweet and I guess this does give the vibes of friends getting closer to lovers as they already established a close friendship bordering on romance back in S1. But it just feels a bit off as Gina is now with EJ, and giving us thoughts of Ricky and Gina’s romance throughout the show makes me think that they really didn’t give Portwell much of a chance 🥲 I guess this reflection paragraph actually made me feel more okay with the end’s confession and kiss, but then the 1 month time skip feels a bit unnecessary as Ricky and Gina have already come so far together.

Ashlyn - Her queer awakening in ep7 was EVERYTHING and I just felt so sorry for her that she ended up hiding that part from Big Red in this episode. Idk what to feel about them now, because there were scenes showing them seemingly happy together like nothing had changed and then scenes where Ashlyn was clearly uncomfortable. I do hope that she gets the queer storyline she deserves and that it really gets some focus on it next season. The whole Big Red being bi bomb at the end also felt like it stole a bit of her moment, by throwing yet another change at her. Honestly I don’t think she needs a serious romantic relationship right now, she should be free to explore her queerness on her own.

#hsmtmts #hsmtmts season 3 #hsmtmts season 3 finale #hsmtmts s3 #hsmtmts s3 finale #spoiler alert #ej caswell #ashlyn caswell #gina porter #ricky bowen #kourtney greene #maddox hsmtmts #jet hsmtmts #carlos rodriguez #nini salazar roberts #ricky and gina

11 notes · View notes

rinisbowen · 2 years

Note

At the end of the outfronts, Tim said something about surprising (I think it's the last answer). I know it was very vague, but do you have any thoughts on this?

i went back and went to the end of the interview and took down the quote to reflect on, bc i couldn’t remember what you were talking about from this morning, but if you mean after the interviewer congratulates him on season 4, then here goes haha. here is the quote for y’all seeing this, you’re welcome:

“and i think for us it’s always about trying to up the stakes on bigger music and better songs and more inclusive storytelling. and i think that [with shows like heartstopper] it just gives us more confidence to keep portraying these characters in surprising, but i think ultimately beautiful and hopeful ways. so we just feel super lucky and excited.”

—

I mean I agree with you, it’s definitely vague. But the whole interview was super incredibly vague and mostly implying stuff rather than giving things away so that’s okay. We can still extrapolate because why not at this point haha.

I’ll say this. Tim said here that he wants to keep portraying the characters in surprising but beautiful and hopeful ways. He said in his BNTE D23 interview that this season dives more into themes of queer identity.

So, given context… I think that “surprising” aspect potentially lends to the idea of a character (or characters), potentially (and maybe more likely due to the fact he calls it a surprise) ones we’ve seen like- in m/f relationships, going on this journey of self discovery and embracing queer identity for themselves. embracing this like- change that can be slow or sudden, like i think it was Julia talked about in the outfront panel.

Technically, it could be any character on the show. But chances are, it’s someone on the panel, just for the reason that that makes the most sense, and if we take that as a fact then it’s either Big Red or Ashlyn or both. I think if Maddox is queer, she’ll already be out and comfortably out. Especially given I don’t think any of the new characters this season are coming back due to the summer camp setting (particularly with the camp being in California, I just don’t anticipate them trying to give that sort of story to someone we only spend eight episodes with. And having a new character we’ve never met before go on that journey isn’t a surprise so much as just- like cool yay more representation.

Before today, if you told me Big Red was having a coming out storyline this season I’d be confused and surprised, given his role is reduced this season, but I mean Tim did say that Seb had a memorable role to play this season, just that the season was different and he’d have less screentime. Soooo maybe Seb helps Big Red come to terms with his burgening sexuality since they’re both not at camp? Idk. I definitely don’t think that’s what’s actually going to happen. But in case it does I need this written down so I can scream about it later.

Someone’s getting a coming out storyline, or at very least a self discovery storyline related to their identity in this sense, even if they don’t come out until season 4 (which I think is also totally possible, but we’ll see).

It could be anyone, like I say. But after today I think it’s either Ashlyn (which makes more sense to me prior to this morning), or Big Red (after that panel I’m very of the mind this is quite likely).

quick note, this last section is entirely just me ruminating on concepts i thought of rather than things i think we will see. please don’t think i’m predicting this, just- mulling over things in my brain.

I think the most unfortunate thing, if it is Big Red’s story, is that if it happens this season, given he’s a guest and she’s a series regular, his story may largely happen play out as it’s attached to hers, and I personally don’t love that. Just because he’s playing a smaller part, it kinda doesn’t lend itself to him having his own full arc for the season, so it’ll be tied into the bigger plot by a series regular. And chances are by virtue of their relationship that person will be Ashlyn. The last thing I want to see is them making Big Red discovering his sexuality about Ashlyn and how she feels about it, and I think if they do it this season that’d a very easy out to get the story more involved in the main camp plot. I know she’d support him but I just don’t want this like- supportive but anxious Ashlyn worrying over what this means for their relationship. If they’re going to thread Big Red coming out / coming to terms with his sexuality in through Ashlyn, I’d much rather it be in a wow look at us we’re both discovering ourselves way (and maybe we also get an Ashlyn discovering her sexuality storyline) than a oh my gosh I’m obviously happy for him but also I’m Ashlyn so I’m anxious because what if he breaks up with me way.

I’d be very happy to see a bi Big Red. We know that’s how Larry sees the character, just as Julia sees Ashlyn as pan. I just hope they do a nice job at playing the story out if that is indeed where they’re going with this “surprising” way of portraying these characters. And I do trust Tim and the writers, I do... But my brain isn’t very nice sometimes and I think of these concepts that I dislike and here we are.

#hsmtmts #outfronts 2022 #tim federle #hsmtmts: big red redonovich #hsmtmts: ashlyn caswell #anonymous #answered #//idk if what i'm saying makes sense or not but i tried #//also i'm always taking questions and i'm here for y'alls thoughts too!!!

11 notes · View notes

multi-lefaiye · 2 years

Note

hi feel free to talk about how you'd rewrite other episodes of the lost tapes

hi hello thank you for the opportunity!!!

okay so. there's a lot of episodes of lost tapes. there's a good chunk of them i'm not touching with a ten-foot pole and think should be scrapped (such as the episodes that appropriate and misrepresent Indigenous cultures b/c Ooooh Scary or w/e the fuck). but there are several that i think have the potential to be interesting and good stories.

anyway, i'm not gonna go as in-depth about the others as i did for the dover demon episode, but i'll list some episodes and like. one or two changes i'd make to make them better. wahoo! i'll mainly do the ones i listed earlier, but maybe i'll list a couple additional ones.

general change: honestly i think all of these stories would benefit from ditching the documentary aspect and just telling their stories. please don't spend half the episode trying to convince me that it's all real and every scientist who disagrees is lying to you, just tell the story you want to tell.

chupacabra - i'm gonna be honest that i think the border patrol agents in this episode should not be portrayed NEARLY as positively as they are if they're going to make an appearance, and maybe if this episode really wanted to use that plotline it'd be good to examine how THEY come into play when people die trying to cross the border into the U.S. (actually now that i think about it, maybe a storyline that focuses more on that with the monster as more of a backdrop could be interesting.)

bigfoot - no notes, this one's fine.

monster of monterey - aside from some logistical things (like how this girl has such a good skype connection in the middle of the ocean), no real notes, this one's alright.

swamp creature - i actually like this one a lot too but i think it'd benefit also from making the characters into... y'know... characters. not just monster fodder.

oklahoma octopus - set it somewhere besides oklahoma (a notoriously landlocked state which has no direct ties to any kind of ocean) and maybe i'll suspend my disbelief enough to accept literally any of the events in this story. i actually don't mind how unlikable some of the characters are here, but if they were more well-rounded i'd probably care more about what happens to them.

death raptor - i actually like this one? it's cheesy and kinda weird but it's not bad. but i think the parents letting a fucking ghost hunting crew take their traumatized young daughter back to the place she was traumatized so she can relive her trauma for their little show is uh. unrealistic at best. so the story should rely on something else.

megaconda - make them gay. lost tapes isn't the kind of show i'd really go to for good queer rep but i think it'd be nice to have something, i guess. i do like that the capitalist dies at the end, though, that's good, no notes on that one. (though i do think maybe the implications of a gigantic fucking snake that can and will attack people being loose in a city should be addressed a little more!)

mothman - this is the perfect episode actually, at least in terms of its story. in execution it's a little clumsy but there's not much in the way of Glaring Issues i want to fix.

death worm - i mean as per usual i just wish these were characters and not monster fodder. i don't even feel bad that the one guy's wife will never know what happened to him because he's barely a character. (also i think it might actually be interesting if you had some kind of queer elements here as well, but again lost tapes isn't the place i'd go to for queer rep in general. i'm just saying if you're gonna reference brokeback mountain, don't be a fucking coward and do something with it.)

hellhound - honestly i think if this just had some room to breathe this episode would be just fine. also if the characters had more Character.

okay i'll do the other seasons under the cut

vampire - genuinely no notes, this episode is actually really interesting, and i think if it had room to breathe this story would be really good.

lizard man - story-wise this is fine, but logistics-wise the suspension of disbelief is a bit hard to secure here. i don't expect a full backstory on the monster, but you expect me to believe this tiny neighborhood has a full grown lizard human in the sewers and he kills everyone he encounters and no one's noticed until literally now? okay. also the cat survives and is unharmed.

southern sasquatch - this one's actually fine i think? it's a decent horror story, and if it had room to breathe i think it'd be alright. my only question is why we need this episode AND a regular bigfoot episode.

werewolf - this might be nitpicky but the werewolf element is really minimized and i think there's a lot of missed potential in just having her be like. a girl with sharp teeth, rather than a fucking Beast And A Monster. like i love the concept of werewolf attacks being viewed by local authorities as a run-of-the-mill serial killer, but nothing is really done with the werewolf part.

death crawler - i only mention this episode to say that i'm scrapping it purely because i hate it on a conceptual level. is the story bad? not necessarily, but i dislike it.

white river monster - i mean it's kinda just a generic Scary Monster In The Water story, but at least it has good stakes for the most part and feels more believable than the octopus one. though i think earl sticking around is a bit unrealistic, if he was SO fucking certain there was a monster there. (once again though actually maybe it'd be more interesting if there was no monster and the characters died from accidents that they mistook as being caused by a monster.)

jersey devil - this would be so much better if the story did literally anything with the attempts at cult references and implications rather than just using them as OOOOOO SCARY SET PIECES.

alien - i do actually kinda hate this episode but the effects are pretty good and the story isn't BAD. i just think it's visceral and disgusting to look at. i guess maybe if there was some more internal logic about the alien, that'd be cool.

bear lake monster - the characters in the episode are all indistinguishable to me and i have no interest in any of them. make them real characters and the story would be better.

dover demon - i already talked about this one at length <3 tl;dr: make them real characters and the demon is fake.

season three overall complaint: either ditch the enigma corporation or put continuity between their episodes, oh my fucking god, if you're going to reuse the same characters why are there no lasting effects from their episodes? you don't get to say "overarching storyline time :)" and then not do it.

zombie - i get what they're going for but the way they handled the vodou elements of it come off as tone-deaf at best and actively racist at worst so i'd probably throw it out and do a different explanation for the zombies. also address the implications of the fact that the zombies are essentially released at the end without the public being informed of anything. this could be a cool story element

kraken - i'm just not really that interested in this one tbh but it's not Bad. it just could use some more characterization for the characters. i don't see why i'm supposed to care about the divers when i don't know anything about them.

strigoi vampire - i actually kinda like this one conceptually, but don't be a fucking coward. kill off the enigma agents at the end. let them die. don't pull a deus ex machina and have them survive unharmed every time.

poltergeist - i actually like this one but i don't think they know what a poltergeist is. this one scared me a lot as a kid but i think maybe they should do a different kind of ghost. also maybe do something with your ghost hunter characters to begin with.

devil monkey - again, suspension of disbelief comes into play for me, but i guess it's. fine? idk.

yeti - just put some more characterization here, and again i want to know what's gonna happen now that the yeti has apparently escaped.

beast of bray road - i just think this episode would be significantly more interesting if it actually addressed the politics around what's going on. just having it be about a far-right/alt-right militia in the woods and then not going into any of that.... there's a story here and you're deliberately avoiding it. though i will say the militia's politics makes me very unsympathetic about their deaths, so i don't feel bad for any of them.

okay this got long whoops

(edit: decided to take out the reptilian episode and just throw that in the pile of Episodes To Scrap, b/c even though i think the concept isn’t bad and changing the monster would go a long way towards making it better, uhhhhh thinking about it more. i’m not so sure about that. idk, maybe i’ll try and tackle that another time.)

#nciko #lost tapes #talk to the bunnykitty #thank you for enabling me! i love this stupid ass series! but also it sucks so much

6 notes · View notes

titathepixie · 1 year

Text

Enid Sinclair’s not your friendly lesbian metaphor

okay, I wanna talk about Wednesday. the show, not the character. cause I wanna talk about Enid, and how she's kind of a terrible metaphor and why you need to think your metaphors through.

Before I start: spoilers for pretty much the whole of Enid's storyline, but big spoilers for episode 5 and onwards. Trigger warnings for mentions of conversion therapy, family issues, general bigotry, and my ranting and reading into things. (Also, when I use the term 'queer' it's meant to every lgbt+ identity)

Right, so Enid's being a werewolf but not fully wolfing out is clearly a metaphor for her being queer in some way or another, and also mixed with a metaphor for puberty (that's not inherently bad, and actually mixing those two together make sense. It's not unusual for queer people to have realised in teen years that they're queer, or at least for it to become hard to ignore).

Originally, Wednesday assumes that Enid has fully wolfed out - which can be read as Enid 'passing' as cishet.

When Enid tells Wednesday that she hasn’t fully wolfed out, she mentions being scared of not being able to find a pack or a mate - worries that aren’t unique to the queer experience, but pretty common amongst queer folks. I don’t think I have to elaborate on how scary it can be to come out to your family, or the potential consequences, but I’d like to mention that I have read trans people talking about having to worry over whether potential partners will accept them (or potentially fetishize them), and I’ve felt similar worries as an ace person. There’s also the part of bi/pan-phobia that’s focused on how we make bad partners because we’re supposedly inherently untrustworthy, or great sex partners cause we’d love a threesome. Yes, this can happen within the queer movement too. (Remember, Get The L Out is a transphobic organisation started by lesbians who want to oppress trans people, and villanise especially trans women.)

Enid also mentions that she’s been to a lot of specialists, further linking fully ‘wolfing out’ with puberty.

Personally, I think this supports an ace reading pretty well. While it still might work as an aro metaphor, Enid does show romantic attraction, so aro would only be a metaphor, so I’m going to focus on it as being an ace reading of her lycantrophy.

The thing is though, within this universe, it’s the not being fully wolfed out that reads as a queer metaphor, not the being a werewolf. She asserts herself as a werewolf (despite the introductory ‘this kitty’s got claws’ line) and it’s part of how she fits in at Nevermore. Within this world, where we hear teenaged werewolves gleefully howling at the moon, being not fully wolfed out is a metaphor for being queer (potentially being too queer within a gay community, or being queer within an otherwise marginalised community).

This is further evidenced by the fact that when Enid’s mother tries to get her to agree to go to a werewolf conversion therapy summer camp (yep, that’s, that’s a thing here), she says the line “Don’t you wanna wolf out and finally be normal?”

This is not subtle. Within this universe, not wolfing out is the queer(or queerer) thing. All the ‘regular’ wolfed out werewolves are basically the cishets (or maybe gays and lesbians), and all the writers had to have known this in order for them to reference conversion camps. A place where absolutely noone is encouraged to be their ‘true self’. (Or the just thought it was a nice way to add family drama, cause who the fuck cares, right?)

Now, I can’t tell really you about media’s general use of the werewolf metaphor, even if I can tell you about its viking counterpart, so I’ve decided to rely on other people knowing what they’re saying, when they say that it’s often used as a metaphor for, essentially, wanting sex. Or other primal urges. This would, if true, then be a clever way to use it as a metaphor for being ace, since, while varied, aceness is generally about not having a great urge to do the do. (Again, asexuality is varied, we’re talking in very simplistic strokes here. Some aces do want to do the do in (maybe in certain circumstances), and that’s cool too).

It would also be very cleverly done in that it’s placed within a community that, while outcasts, can on occasion be gatekeepy. (Think of all the debates about whether or not trans, bi, pan, ace, aro and/or intersex people should be included in the LGBT+ community). So, while Enid would very clearly not be accepted by the normie society on account of being a werewolf and having claws she can pull out at a moment’s notice, she also doesn’t fit into the werewolf society, on account of not being ‘werewolf’ (i.e. queer) enough.

So far, this all seems acceptable. Clever, even. The conversion therapy reference is a little on the nose for queer representation, but it’s still legal in some places, so clearly attention still needs to be paid. It’s also very frustrating to, again, see queer metaphors in a piece of media without queer characters (fine, there are background queer people. But since I can’t remember Eugene’s mothers’ names and the other potential couple I spotted don’t even speak, I’m not counting them.)

Here’s where it falls apart:

Enid wolfs out.

Now, you can argue that it’s worry over Wednesday that makes her wolf out, which would give rise to a sapphic reading. I even remembered it as that, but then, rewatching the scene, yeah, she’s going through the forest looking for Wednesday, but honestly, it seems more like it was the moon or just random happenstance that did it. There’s nothing reminding her of Wednesday (yes, she’s holding Thing, who is associated with Wednesday, but whom Enid clearly sees as their own person), or making her think that Wednesday is in immediate danger, anymore than just the overall situation.

Rewatching the clip where she finally transforms mainly reminded me of someone going to the bathroom and suddenly realising that they just had their first period, while maybe they’re also dealing with general stress of a big presentation (or in this case, a missing friend and classmate).

I don’t know where this puts Enid (though maybe it’s because I don’t really want to acknowledge that it becomes a very “well, you’re not ace anymore, you just had to grow up!” situation, because that ... is what it feels like) or werewolves in general as metaphors, especially since the show in general doesn’t seem to know where to put outcasts in general. Nevermore could be an example of those of marginalised groups who, while they do have certain advantages (mainly money, in this case), are still marginalised and despised and have to walk the balance of being ‘normal enough to be accepted, but still other’ (the admonishment of ‘don’t make waves’ sounds pretty similar to ‘don’t be that queer’). The world would need to be filled out more (preferably include some outcasts who aren’t wealthy enough to send their kids to a fancy boarding school and help fund an entire town) to better portray marginalisation (the whole thing about hydes also confuses the entire metaphor. Supposedly they’re too violent just by nature, but also the violence is only at the urging at others, and, seriously, you have created a group - ‘outcasts’ - to be a stand-in for reallife marginalised groups, and then you add a type that’s just, too violent to have around?? please don’t do that.)

Look, the short of this is, if you’re saving a character from getting sent to a conversion camp, or your world’s version of or metaphor for one, by having them ‘not need it’, that’s bad. You did bad with the metaphor. I would like to ban you from metaphors. You should have someone follow you around and ready to spritz you with water if you try to do a bad metaphor again.

0 notes

musclesandhammering · 3 years

Text

Every Single Issue I Have With S*lki (It’s Not Just The Selfcest)

Here goes. I threatened to post this a few days ago and never did, but I just saw a s*lki stan Twitter account claim that Loki caring about Sylvie more than the whole multiverse was a Good And Romantic thing and it pushed me over the fucking edge, so now you all have to read this. I’ve divided it into categories cause there’s just THAT much.

OOC Bullshit

• First and foremost, no amount of mental gymnastics you do will ever make me believe that this specific Loki- the one that just invaded New York, that just came off a year of Thanos Torture, that just got done being influenced by the sceptre, that was literally in the middle of a crisis already, and then on top of that went through all the trauma of Ep 1- would even be worried about a romantic relationship. That would be the furthest thing from his mind. Go back and watch how he acted in Avengers- you think that guy would abandon his previous mission to become a snivelling simp for a girl he’d just met 3 days prior? Yeah, there’s no universe in which that makes sense.

• “It’s very in character for Loki to fall in love with himself lololol-“ NO, it’s literally not. Out of all the characters in the mcu, I don’t think I can think of anyone that genuinely hates themselves more than Loki. He even referred to all his other male variants as “monsters” and said meeting them was “a nightmare” in this series. He’s got so much self-loathing, plus the fact that he genuinely thinks himself to be an evil backstabbing scourge- so there’s no evidence at all suggesting that he would ever develop a fondness for, or even be inclined to trust, another version of himself, after only knowing them for 3 days.

• Building on that, the whole concept of Loki falling in love with a version of himself just feeds into the annoying ass misconception that he’s a narcissist. No matter which way you stack it, he’s not. If you’re referring to NPD, he doesn’t fit the criteria, and if you’re saying “narcissist” just as a slang term meaning “selfish and arrogant”, that still doesn’t accurately describe him. But when creators like Waldron and Herron do things like having him fall in love with himself, it makes it so much easier for casual viewers to think that he is.

Shitty LGBT Rep

• It’s kinda sus that Loki’s are allegedly genderfluid and yet the only female-presenting variant we see (and apparently the only female-presenting variant there is, cause the male Loki’s all seemed unfamiliar with the concept) is treated as some kind of mind-bogglingly special paradox. Also very sus that, out of all the Loki variants, the one our Loki falls in love with just so happens to be the only female one. What a coincidence.

• The fact that the creators of the show went around bragging about Loki’s bisexuality and Marvel purposefully (lbr) allowed stories about Loki possibly having a male love interest to circulate, specifically enticing queer viewers to watch the show (you know, the definition of queerbaiting), and then instead of having a male love interest (Loki was the first queer main character, so it was the perfect opportunity) they gave us *gestures to this dumpster fire* this… it’s just a middle finger to LGBT fans. The fact that they would rather have this relationship with all its myriad of problems than have a gay relationship is just……. Very telling.

• While him being with a woman obviously doesn’t refute his bisexuality, the fact that they showed/talked about him being interested in 3 different women (flight attendant, Sylvie, Sif) and never even hinted at him being attracted to a man, definitely makes it seem like they were trying to cover up his bisexuality to smooth things over with the more homophobic viewers. You know? It’s like “I know you’re pissed that we sorta confirmed Loki as bi, so we promise we’ll never mention it again! Or even hint at it! As a matter of fact, we’ll give him lots of female lovies and make him seem as straight as possible! That’ll take your mind off of that horrible crumb of queer rep, right? Please please please keep giving us your money!!!”

• Aside from all the other issues, at its core, the biggest reason why I think I’m so irritated with s*lki is that it took one of the most interesting, complex, and diverse characters in cinema atm and squished him into a tired ass unnecessary heteronormative subplot…. Like literally every. single. other. protagonist. ever. Loki is such a unique character, and it’s so so so incredibly disappointing that they stuck him into that same boring cookie cutter romance that happens to every other character in every other movie I’ve ever seen. It’s a disservice, and it’s honestly just not compelling or entertaining at all.

Thematic Issues Galore

• His arc didn’t need a romance. With anyone. It was unnecessary and it didn’t make sense plot-wise. In fact, one of the reasons he was my fav prior to this was because he was the only big-name mcu character whose story wasn’t muddied-up by a romance that didn’t need to be there. So much for that.

• He wasn’t emotionally ready for a romantic relationship with anyone. Hell, just a genuine friendship would’ve been pushing it for him at this point. He was in such a bad state that any relationship he got into would’ve been toxic and unhealthy for both him and the other person, and it doesn’t make sense why the writers would want to put him in one when there were so many cons and essentially no pros (other than “Uwu aren’t they cute together”).

• Sylvie’s character in general was unnecessary and Loki’s character was robbed just by her being there. The whole show became about her post-Ep 2. They spent most of the time giving her backstory, building her up, telling us how awesome she is, trying to convince us to like her, etc when what they really needed to be doing was building Loki up- cause I gotta say, if I had to describe TVA!Loki in a few words, they would be Flat, Boring, and Weak.

• The romance overtakes the plot. They spend time portraying their supposed connection that could’ve been spent adding depth and complexity to literally any of the characters. They make the big Nexus Event them giving each other googly eyes on Lamentis when it could’ve been so many other way more profound things that speak to the fundamental nature of Loki’s. They have the climax of the finale be “oh no she betrayed him to kill He Who Remains” when it could’ve been something way more compelling (Loki having a moral crisis over whether or not to kill HWR, Loki contemplating the state of the multiverse and weighing the pros and cons of freedom vs order, Loki looking into some What If situations and getting emotional about what could’ve been regarding his family, Loki realising the gravity of HWR’s offer and finally coming to terms with how important he is to the universal cycle, etc etc). The entire plot suffered in favour of a romance that half of us didn’t even want.

• It essentially reduced all of Loki’s potential character growth down to “He did it for his crush.” He seemed to at least have some motivations of his own in Ep 1-2 (feeble as they were) but after Sylvie showed up in Ep 3, literally every action he took was just him being a simp for her. Why did he lie in the interrogation? To try to protect Sylvie. Why did he fight the minutemen and Timekeepers? To survive kinda, but mostly cause it was important to Sylvie. Why did he get pruned? Cause he got distracted trying to confess his crush to Sylvie. Why did he try to get out of The Void? Cause he thought Sylvie needed him. Why did he stay in The Void? Cause Sylvie was staying. Why did he try to enchant Alioth? Cause Sylvie told him to. Why did the multiverse get cracked open, leading to an infinite number of Kangs waging war on all of existence? Cause Loki didn’t wanna hurt Sylvie in their fight at the Citadel and then get distracted by her kissing him. It’s uninteresting and honestly pretty embarrassing.

• Throughout their “relationship arc” the writers do their absolute damndest to convince us that we should like Sylvie more than Loki. And you know what? It’s the most hypocritical shit I’ve ever seen. They preach and preach about how Sylvie’s life has been so difficult/we should feel bad for her/she had it so bad/poor poor sylvie/she had it SO much worse than pampered prince Loki…. But then they never even touch on any of Loki’s trauma of hardships (the ones that have been ignored for literally 3 movies now). They frame Sylvie as a good person and a Freedom Fighter after she spent literal decades/centuries mass-murdering brainwashed TVA agents and showing exactly zero remorse for it….. but then they make it their mission to constantly remind us that Loki is a terrible person and constantly put him in situations where he’s forced to acknowledge his wrongdoings/show remorse/admit to how “evil” he is for being a mass murderer for like 2 years. They show him on-screen having a wider range of powers than her, and perpetuate his whole shtick of being a “master manipulator” or whatever….. But then they make Sylvie “the brawn” more competent, intelligent, and physically capable than him. Tell me how it’s a good thing for a ship to be so narratively biased toward one character.

Missed Opportunities

• If they absolutely had to have a romance subplot, then they could’ve paired Loki with one of the characters that have already been established OR one of the characters that were a big part of the whole TVA storyline anyway. It would’ve been so interesting if they’d revealed that Loki had a history with some of the players from previous films (Sif and Fandral both come to mind). It also would’ve been really interesting if they’d given Loki a love interest that actually had some allegiance to the TVA as a whole (Mobius maybe, but not necessarily. It also could’ve been Renslayer or B-15). Hell, imo it would’ve been cool if they’d followed through with that “See you again someday” line that he said to the flight attendant in Ep 1. ALL of these characters have way more chemistry with him than Sylvie, and they were also already relevant to the plot without wasting half the show to give background info on them.

• If they absolutely had to have a hetero-presenting love story involving an enchantress-type figure, then there’s a whole Enchantress (Amora) that was actually Loki’s love interest in the comics. Plus, fans have been screaming for Amora to appear in the mcu for years. Plus, Tom literally pitched an Amora/Loki storyline way back in 2012-13. Also, Lorelei (another enchantress) is also one of Loki’s love interests in the comics, and she already exists in the mcu (she was on Agents of SHIELD). There were several different established characters for them to choose from. Creating a whole knew amalgamation of a character and going with the “she’s a Loki variant” storyline was just completely unnecessary and made no sense.

• They completely robbed us of a Chaos Twins dynamic. Had they handled Sylvie better and not forced her and Loki to smooch, the two of them could’ve had a really really complex and interesting sibling relationship. Loki could’ve stepped into Thor’s shoes and sort of used that new role to gain some self importance, and Sylvie could’ve finally had somebody to look out for her/teach her magic/be there for her. It would’ve been very aesthetically pleasing, the vibes would’ve been out of this world, it would’ve been way more profound than this bs, and frankly it would’ve been much more entertaining to watch.

• Loki’s relationship (read: obsession) with Sylvie completely overshadows all Loki’s other relationships in the show. Loki and Mobius were literally the focal point of the series in Ep 1-2, but after Sylvie showed up in Ep 3, they barely had any interactions with each other, and Mobius pretty much faded to the background entirely. Loki had the beginnings of a pretty interesting antagonistic relationship with Renslayer (with her wanting him pruned, then arguing with Mobius that he couldn’t be trusted), but after Sylvie showed up the dynamic shifted to focus on the history between her and Ravonna. Loki and B-15 started off very badly and openly disliked each other throughout Ep 1-2, and then in the end of Ep 2, Loki showed a little bit of concern for her when she was possessed, hinting that they might be inching toward a reconciliation- especially considering how obvious it was that Loki was gonna uncover the TVA’s sins eventually. There was so much potential for him to be the one to give her her memories back and convince her to change sides, but no, of course that honor went to Sylvie. In fact, after Sylvie showed up, Loki and B-15 never even spoke to each other again.

Various S*lki Fails

• If they were trying to convince us that this affection was mutual, they completely failed. There’s nothing I’ve seen that even hints at Sylvie feeling the same way about Loki that he does about her. At most, I’d say she has a slight endearment to him. She finds him likeable and she’s grudgingly fond of him, but she definitely isn’t in love with the guy. Maybe she thinks he’s cute and hopes that he gets out of this mess alright, but her mission obviously comes before him- whereas, it’s been confirmed multiple times that Loki cares about her above anything else. She doesn’t trust him, she looks at him like he’s an incompetent fool half the time, she shows little to no reaction during most of his confession moments, and she kissed him as a means to distract him so that she could get him out of her way. Look, all I’m saying is, when you get into a relationship where one of you is way more invested than the other, it never ends well.

• This goes without saying for a lot of us, but the selfcest is just straight up odd and cringey. If you’re cool with that sort of thing, fine! People can ship what they want! But don’t pretend it’s not at least a little bit uncomfortable. Yes, I know they’re not technically siblings so it’s not technically incest, and they’re also not technically the exact same person, but they’re similar enough that it makes things weird. And yes I know selfcest can’t happen in real life, so there’s no way to judge it morally, but neither can most of the other stuff that happens in these shows/movies (the Snap, Loki destroying jotunheim, superhero with powers being held accountable, mind control) and yet we still find ways to judge their morality, because they all mirror real-world events. (The snap= genocide; Loki destroying Jotunheim= bombing other countries; superhero accountability= weapons accountability; mind control= grooming and coercion). And lbr the closest real-world mirror to two versions of the same person (who may or may not share DNA, family, backgrounds, physical and emotion characteristics) being romantically involved with one another is incest. And you can be ok with that if you want- that’s your prerogative- but don’t get pissy just cause a lot of us are squicked out by it.

• The whole mirror metaphor (learning self love via each other) thing just fell completely flat. First of all, having Loki learn to love himself by looking at someone who mirrors him did not, in any way shape or form, require them to be romantically involved. But they were. Of course. Secondly, the creators have contradicted themselves so many times on whether Loki and Sylvie are the same or not, that it doesn’t even really register to the viewer that the mirroring thing was what they were going for. Finally, Loki and Sylvie are shown to have so little in common- and to have only the most bare minimum of similarities personality-wise- that it doesn’t even make sense that Loki would “learn to love himself through loving her”. Like? They’re nothing alike. So how would he make the connection that he himself is actually pretty cool, based on her alone? There’s virtually nothing in her that reflects him.

• I know the objective of the entire show was to convince us of how awesome and unique Sylvie is, but honestly her relationship with Loki just did the opposite. A hallmark of a Mary Sue is having her constantly upstage the male lead, and then having him instantly fall madly in love with her anyway. And that’s.. exactly what happened here. Everything they’re doing to try to force her character to be more stan-able is really just forcing her to look more like their self-insert OC. Which is exactly what she is. It would’ve been so much more satisfying if she didn’t have to try so hard to look cool, if they didn’t have to try so hard to make her backstory tear-inducing, if they didn’t have to turn our protagonist into a snivelling simp just to prove how incredible she supposedly is. Very much #GirlBoss energy and we all know how performative and cheap that is.

• The entire thing was too rushed, there was too little build-up, and it was nowhere near believable. As stated above, it’s ridiculously unlikely that Loki would canonically even be interested in Sylvie, and this show did nothing to explain why he was. He just suddenly was. There was nothing they showed us as viewers that would justify a guy as closed-off and preoccupied as Loki falling head-over-heels for a girl he just met. Their was no explanation, no big revelation, no reasoning, it just… kinda happened. And I’m also severely skeptical of any love story that has the characters go in this deep after only 3 45-minute episodes of exposition.

I’m sure there’s other stuff, so if anyone thinks of anything, let me know and I’ll be more than happy to add it. Tagging @janetsnakehole02 @raifenlf @natures-marvel and @brightredsunset800 for expressing interest. This is all your faults.

#antisylki #loki meta #kinda #loki series critical #loki series negativity #anti loki x sylvie #anti loki series #anti sylvie #frosty bby #loki deserved better #I don’t even like TVA!Loki tho so I guess it doesn’t matter with him lmao #tva loki #loki laufeyson

923 notes · View notes

captain-hen · 3 years

Note

thoughts on the canonical possibility of buddie?

okay, i have a LOT of thoughts lol, so enjoy the ride!

let me start off by saying that i'm actually pretty optimistic about buddie possibly becoming canon. i know it might seem like a long shot to some, but i have a good feeling about this!

i think it's pretty obvious by now (and i'm pretty sure that the writers and directors must have realized it too) that having canon buddie would really be the easiest direction for the show to go.

it saves on the problem of having the introduce more characters, especially with the main ensemble being pushed to it's limits.

the show doesn't have to deal with the main problem that will undoubtedly arise if buck and eddie got other love interests: a) introducing female characters and giving them zero development, this reducing them to mere love interests and irritating the audience by the misogyny of it all, or b) developing these characters but at the cost of the screentime of the main ensemble, thus annoying the audience bc we're obviously going to be more invested in the mains. having canon buddie wouldn't pose either of those problems.

911? would? literally? make history? to my knowledge, there's no other tv show that would have this level of build up and slow burn for a queer couple. the longest build up i've ever seen for a queer couple has been like...little over one season. and don't get me wrong, a lot of these ships are adorable and amazing even without the build up, but let's admit it, something about a long slow burn is infinitely more satisfying. a lot of iconic het couples on tv have had extremely long slow burns, spanning over mny seasons, and it's pretty frustrating that that much development is never put into queer couples. 911 would be a first!

this introduces the potential for so many new storylines; buck and eddie coming to terms with their sexuality, eddie having to deal with his conservative family knowing about it (because i project upon him lol and he really has been raised with that sort of traditional nuclear family mindset), the logistics of dating your coworker that they'll inevitably have to deal with and so many other things that i can't even think of right now.

i really do think we're heading in that direction, there have been so many Choices™ made in terms of directing, writing and acting made by now that it really can't be a coincidence. look at season 4 alone. they've taken the time and effort to kind of solidify buck's position as part of the diaz family unit, despite how jam packed the season has been with the addition of a new regular and all it's different plotlines. they've established twice that chris has a line to buck outside of eddie. 4x08, despite how much everyone hated it was in some ways a gold mine, it contrasted so clearly the comfortable domesticity of eddie coming home to buck and chatting about chris and his bedtime routine as compared to eddie's awkward af date with ana (where they flirted over math of all things) and that scene at the end of ana meeting chris which felt so forced, rushed and out of the blue. like...there's no way the writers aren't seeing this. these details are not that hard to notice and they've been planning and plotting the storylines for ages, not to mention they're literally trained for all this.

almost every single one of buck and eddie's storylines parallel each other to the point where it simply can't be by chance anymore! their dating storylines with ali and ana were practically identical to the point where some of the dialogue was actually repeated! buck has been paralleled to shannon on numerous occasions, most notably during the lawsuit arc. i'm sure i'm missing out on a lot of stuff. all the gifsets in the world wouldn't be enough to bring out the parallels in their character arcs.

so yeah, i do believe buddie is a long con, and they're actually heading towards being canon. is it naive of me? possibly, but i don't think i'm being overly optimistic here. i'm not even someone who usually picks up on these nuances in while watching shows, at least not immediately, but i was picking them up all the time while watching 911. so i am fairly optimistic about this. we just need to be patient about this and accept that there's a lot of things in both buck and eddie's storylines that need to be resolved before they'll even be ready for another serious relationship...this time with each other.

thanks for the ask, anon, and i hope this was at least a bit coherent! 😅

#neethu answers #buddie #neethu writes #meta #evan buckley #eddie diaz

124 notes · View notes

cupsofteandcoffeespoons · 3 years

Note

What is your ranking of the original New Directions members (including Sam & Blaine, doesn’t have to include Matt since I know he’s difficult to rank lol)? :)

ooh this is so fun! here we go:

1. quinn: no surprise to anyone who knows me. i adore her and all her squandered potential - by far my favorite character to watch on screen and to read/write fanfiction for. not a perfect person - or even a nice one a lot of the time - but somehow still incredibly compelling.

2. mercedes: a true queen. worked hard, stood up for herself and her friends, brushed off the haters and went on to become a fierce celebrity in her own right. we love to see it. also, her cover of ain’t no way? my favorite song from all of glee.

3. kurt: literally the coolest person on the show, and one of my all-time favorites. he was so brave and fearlessly himself, even in the face of incredible pushback, and i really admire him for that. he’s as ambitious and determined as rachel, but doesn’t step on other people (or send them to crackhouses) to succeed. at the end of the day, he achieves his goals on his own merit and hard work, which was a refreshing foil to rachel’s storyline.

4. blaine: he’s such a complex character, with such an undeveloped backstory, which is why he appeals to me so much (same reason i like quinn, now that i think about it). he isn’t perfect, and there were certainly moments that i actively disliked him, but i found him to be really interesting, and his relationship with kurt was incredibly sweet most of the time.

5. tina: love her! fantastic sense of style throughout the seasons, and really grows into her own skin similar to people like blaine and puck. there’s definite character development there, and i love the narrative of her going from someone who let rachel steal her west side story solo in the front 9 to fighting for a place in the spotlight in seasons 3-6.

6. rachel: love fanon rachel, but canon rachel is someone i can only handle in small doses. she’s got a wonderful voice, and her ambition is admirable. she also won my heart in a lot of scenes opposite quinn, where she shows a remarkable capacity for forgiveness and compassion. i think she’s a good person, but not a very nice person, and she’s a bit much for me.

7. mike: mostly sweet but not a really strong presence in my mind. i don’t remember him doing anything that made me upset, but he didn’t have enough of a personality - or enough screen time - for me to develop an attachment to him, so he’s smack dab in the middle.

8. santana: (ooh i can feel the hate coming already). look, at the end of the day, santana just didn’t do it for me. towards the end of season 3 and through the end of season 4 i actually found myself warming to her, but her decision to leave new york to go to an island with brittany (who is literally my least favorite og glee clubber) pissed me off, and she never really recovered from that decision. also, a lot of her “funny” comments weren’t funny to me at all, just mean. she crossed the line a few too many times for me to every like her.

9. sam: love his voice! also found him to be a pretty solid character in seasons 2 and 3, if a little boring. then season 4 hit, and he was relegated to being not funny and kind of dumb too. disappointing end to a character that had a promising start.

10. artie: meh. great voice, mediocre personality. said some really shitty things - mostly about and to women, but also the scene with ryder from lights out (y’all know the one) comes to mind.

11. puck: hate season 1 puck, tolerate the rest. he’ll never be my favorite, or even a character i particularly like, but he had decent character development and personal growth, especially given the show’s general manner of ruining everyone’s character development on a regular basis.

12. finn: started an asshole, ended an asshole. had sweet moments occasionally - especially opposite quinn, rachel, and as a teacher in season 4 - but completely destroyed any trace of fondness by using homophobic and ableist slurs, making the glee club perform gangnam style at sectionals (seriously, what even was that), and generally being both dumb and prejudiced. no disrespect to cory though - he seemed like a wonderful person and actor, and my disdain for finn is strictly based on his writing and characterization.

13. brittany: i didn’t find her funny at all, especially in the later seasons - she was just mean and irritating. also, as a bisexual woman who looked to glee for queer representation when i was coming to terms with my sexuality, brittany failed to deliver for me in any meaningful way - probably because she never actually used the work “bisexual” to describe herself, and her promiscuity - while not a problem in and of itself in my book - fed into a lot of shitty stereotypes about bisexual people. not a fan.

#glee #glee asks #quinn fabray #mercedes jones #kurt hummel #blaine anderson #tina cohen chang #rachel berry #mike chang #santana lopez #sam evans #artie abrams #noah puckerman #finn hudson #anti brittany pierce #brittany s. pierce #anti finn hudson

25 notes · View notes

elizabethrobertajones · 3 years

Note

Did Bobo really create the Wayward Sisters? If so, why weren't Jack and especially Cas included in that episode? That's my biggest issue with that pilot honestly, I mean, the fact that the show abandoned Claire and Cas' bond after season 10 and gave that storyline to Salmondean. Her bond with Cas is more interesting because of their connection to the Novaks. I also think that Claire and Jack would've made a more engaging dynamic and spin off together, I think they're strong characters & actors

Hi there!

Bobo isn’t the “creator” of Wayward so much as it can even have one, as it was a very organic idea, which even involved a healthy amount of fandom input. The original campaign in season 10 was for Wayward Daughters, and the idea picked up so much steam the altered title for, I guess, a mix of copyright and thematic relevance was the Sisters one. I’d say 10x08 was the real genesis of it as something that could be really solid. Once Kim and Briana were put together the chemistry and star power they could have had together was really meteoric as far as our small SPN world was concerned. Phil Sgriccia directed 9x13 and wrote 10x08 and was more of the parent of Wayward than any specific writer in that sense. Jody and Claire were pretty much common property of the show by that point. Claire was really introduced again in relation to plotlines and questions about Cas and less to do with them really going out of their way to re-launch her. I think they’d have been much cornier about it from the start and while YA protagonist diary writing her way through the end of Wayward Sisters was cute, it’s the sort of cutesy that really has to be earned. If she STARTED that way, like maybe me and 3 friends would be stanning her and everyone else would be revolted :P

(I am a YA fantasy novel author, but I do think everyone should make room in their hearts for this level of cheese)

In any case, Bobo just threw his hat into an already crowded ring with Alex, but obviously loving the characters and having his own personal wayward child to contribute did help elevate him to the prospective showrunner seat, but also all the other writers who’d written these characters except Dabb had left at that point. If Bobo was going to shepherd them through to their new show, he’d be the legacy writer, even though he was a new baby writer in the season Donna was introduced... Attrition aside, he did genuinely write them very well, loved their stories and was great with writing Jody when he could get her, so he would also have been a good choice even if all the others were left still...

But anyway. Season 10′s subplot for Cas was about Claire and learning some stuff about himself along the way, but she was used very much for his personal development and for Dean as well, being a mini Dean herself in a season where he had lost a lot of his sense of self. It’s a total accident of scheduling but Angel Heart (10x20) being the last episode before 10x22 is a nice touch in that regard. And while Cas tried really hard with Claire and awoke his inner Dad side so that he’d be more prepared for fatherhood next time, it was pretty insurmountable between them to have anything more than a bittersweet relationship where the best he could do was make up with her and see her somewhere safe. The fact of him looking like her actual dead father is horrendous the more you think about it and while she managed to see him for who he was instead of a horrible monster, that’s more than enough trauma to inflict on an already traumatised girl for the sake of helping Cas’s manpain and tidying up the sticky question of Jimmy and Cas’s right to the vessel.

Angel Heart very specifically ends with TFW mailing Claire to Jody because they know she’s already good with Alex in a genuine way and can handle these sort of issues and has done it before. And also because she can be a guardian who will not constantly remind Claire that her father is dead but something is walking around wearing a perfect reconstruction of his face. Carver era did a few things here and there with bodily autonomy and the problem of angel and demon vessels, but it was also really hit and miss. They’d get random waves of feeling guilty about it but then by necessity go back to stabbing angels in their still-living vessels an episode later. Claire was a way to address at the very least that whatever Cas was being put through was only a punishment on Cas and not on Jimmy as well, which is probably why we got such sappy Heaven scenes. We NEEDED to be shown he was in Heaven and largely okay with what was going on so that the show could justify using Cas at all as a character without breaking the code of ethics they tried to make their own characters adhere to. Aside from that it also gave Cas a side plot for when he wasn’t needed in the main plot, and any emotional connection to anything that wasn’t Sam and Dean.

Anyway 10x20 caused this huge fandom high which was followed by one of the lowest lows of the fandom immediately after, and both centred on female characters (in fact, now we know, 2 lesbians even! Though I’d wonder if, The Gay Agenda aside, Bobo spite-wrote that specifically because of the roots of Wayward) and I think that galvanised the whole movement of fans and hopefully some self-reflection in the show. They DID start making an effort in season 11, which shows some of the early signs of better inclusion but also backtracking or edging nervously away from the more intense Carver era stuff. Not just because Dean didn’t have the Mark any more but in general it was like someone had opened a window and let in some fresh air... Even before Carver bailed somewhere around the midseason to go do a different show and Dabb started to step up.

All this to say that the Wayward stuff was always about the female characters and making up for the past sins of the show. It’s even a riff on the “wayward son” line which obviously centres around male protagonists and their journey. Claire stumbled into being a part of it in the lucky way of being in the right place and time, but the journey had already started even in the season 10 momentum with earlier work and it was that which suddenly made the prospect that Jody had two young women living with her now seem like a starter for the next generation of the show as it was a mirrored format to season 1 in a way, if you took Alex and Claire as the new Sam and Dean. It was exciting but people flipped out after Angel Heart because stuff had been bubbling since season 9 and earlier in season 10, so this was just pouring more candy into an already visibly full bowl of potential tasty gems. It made a possibility seem real that hadn’t before because we already had Kim bitterly complaining that the CW refused to hear the case for a Jody spin off because she was too old. The next best thing was a Jody spin off where she was the Gandalf to some CW age appropriate characters.

(the CW is and always has been garbage)

Anyway in season 13 Jack was introduced as a Claire 2.0 but as a male character with staying power for that reason, but he was filling the space she left for Cas. He couldn’t be a father to her and neither really wanted that set up anyway. But thematically it had created the possibility of Dadstiel and the space he had in his heart for that. Since the show was in its waning years they would be looking for endgame and handing Cas an easy win with a son he could unconditionally love who would love him back unconditionally absolutely filled that gap. It was a non SamnDean thing that Cas could have for himself outside of whatever happened with them. Not sure the memo came back that he was supposed to have mORE than that but oh well it’s not real if you don’t watch it :))) But yeah Jack was always going to be linked to Cas’s endgame, he wasn’t a free-floating character such as Jody who could go where she wanted and do as she pleased. He was main story relevant from start to finish and tied inexorably to another main character’s fate. Because the show wouldn’t do that with its female characters they could be bundled into spin offs but in practical terms Jack was both never what the Wayward as envisioned by fans or writers was about, nor would he have been free to go.

Since it would have been about centering the stories of people overlooked by the main story, Claire a case in point that she had her life ruined in season 4 and it was a footnote until season ten, and then metaphorically more the concept of having queer and non-white characters in the mix of main characters, it would have represented a future of the story where the main show was unable to tread. Probably because of the CW. Also inherent biases in the writers. Bad cocktail. Jack is both too white and too male to fit the brief to ever leave SPN, and not only that but he is so as a precise mirror to the main white male characters, being passably any one of their sons if you squint, and meant to be instantly instinctively read as such... he was one of the safest bets of representing the show as the network wanted to imagine its target demographic.

So I really don’t think that Jack has any place being in a spin off of the show unless you want more of the same. They tried to give us something different and the CW didn’t like it because it wasn’t more of the same. Ironically a Jack spin off, with or without Claire, would have more chance of being greenlit and more chance of success. But the spin off they put their heart behind was Wayward Sisters as it was. And I think it was absolutely correct that never mind leaving Jack out of it after his work was done in the lead up episode to help set the table, but honestly they could have cut all the middle scenes of Sam and Dean wandering in the woods and gained precious seconds with the girls and still had a functioning story with those guys. It was like some cowardly missive was sent that the show couldn’t actually go more than 10 minutes without showing a flesh and blood Winchester or the whole thing would spontaneously sizzle out of syndication and the money tree would wither on the spot. And in the mean time, we could have been having Banter with the girls. Or Claire and Kaia holding hands some more. The good stuff :P

72 notes · View notes