actually while i’m on an analysis and also bigb train i want to talk a little about the bigb/cleo relationship because. it’s VERY EASY to just read it as “bigb betrayed cleo that one time three seasons ago and cleo has never forgiven him for this” but there’s way more to it than that and it’s so fascinating i want to shake them around like maracas.
like, okay, the initial betrayal is as much a failure to communicate as it is an actual betrayal. cleo says that if bigb had just TOLD HER she would have let him, and I believe this (loyalty is an extremely consistent cleo trait). however JUST EARLIER THAT SESSION she’d also been talking about how she wouldn’t trust someone with the boogeyman curse and can’t believe someone would betray their allies. bigb heard that, decided he couldn’t tell cleo (because she’d hate him for it), and panicked himself right into a corner where he ended up doing the thing that was WAY WORSE for that relationship. also left out is that part of why cleo got that mad wasn’t even bigb’s fault; she was ALSO mad because lizzie and ren sided with him over her, and she felt betrayed by everyone at once. which she then pinned on bigb. meanwhile, while bigb apologized, he never let go of the idea that he'd had no other choice, and never really addressed the unstated hurt of 'cleo also felt like her friends had been turned against her', so it never rang as sincere to cleo. so like, more going on there than just a betrayal!
but like, let’s talk about their relationship after that, shall we?
on cleo’s end, she’s a character who tends to hold on to relationships across seasons, for better and for worse. the widow’s alliance basically never ending; martyn and cleo and their inability to be normal about each other; cleo and etho’s quiet understanding; and, as one of these important tentpoles, bigb and cleo being unable to trust each other. she carried that hurt with her into the few interactions they had in double life, and that in turn helped to color everything else. see, cleo doesn't just hold on to relationships; she holds grudges, and bigb is the ultimate target of that. unlike some of her potential grudges, she's never had a scenario where she and bigb were on the same side in order to temper the grudge. she's also never gotten the boogey curse herself, making it even harder for her to temper it and understand.
so, even after things like limited life where she's started to be less Immediately Angry the moment she feels betrayed (thank you scar for being kind of a moron and getting cleo that lesson), she still holds on to the last life version of bigb in her head. also, because of that, it makes it easy for her to just... continue perpetuating that. she shuns bigb and assumes he has some reason she needs revenge again. that, in turn, pushes bigb to doing another thing she needs revenge for, so she tries to get it, so they keep spiraling downwards in a cycle of mistrust, because cleo has also made herself untrustworthy to bigb.
meanwhile, on bigb's end... he tried to apologize and she wouldn't take it! she sees all of this as an irrational grudge on cleo's part, and there's been very little to discount that. but also because bigb has a tendency to go off and do his own thing and hold himself apart from people, he has made very little effort to meaningfully fix this. in fact, because he assumes cleo will continue to hold a grudge, he continues to treat her a bit like an enemy, continuing to provoke her at multiple opportunities.
he can't make that relationship WORSE, after all, so there's no reason NOT TO continue to mess with her. she'll never trust him, so there aren't real consequences if he keeps burning her, because the only consequence is that she'll just continue to never trust him, right? it's a simple relationship! and in some ways it's comforting, even; cleo is someone he can never mess up with, because that bridge is already burnt.
and ironically? this makes their relationship surprisingly stable. they will KEEP ON sticking knives in each other, of course. even when they don't have a good reason for it, cleo will assume bigb must have done something and bigb will assume cleo will hate him anyway. but in turn, i think they VERY MUCH know where they stand with each other. and tragically, that means neither of them have an incentive to try to fix this. they're both very, very entrenched in how they see each other now, and either of them will see any attempted olive branches as another place for everything to go wrong. they're cleo and bigb, who don't trust each other because bigb killed her one time, forever. that's who they are. that's how they see each other. and it's not just because that happened; it's because they keep reinforcing it, over and over and over again, in a way that makes communicating that they could stop nearly impossible.
that and i think cc!bigb and cc!cleo out of character really enjoy continuing to have their cubitos have a stupid irrational grudge on each other because they think it's funny but that's unrelated to the character analysis,
539 notes
·
View notes
Hey, I started reading Robin son of Batman because of your recommendation (I literally have a print of your post on my phone to not forget lol). Honestly? One of the best things I ever read!!!
Thank you for opening my eyes! Damian has been one of my favorite characters for over a year, but I didn't read/watch much of him because of school, life (and probably an executive dysfunction in the mix).
Maya is incredible. I loved her.
I haven't finished all the issues yet, but do you have any other recommendations?
WAH this makes me so happy, i'm glad you still gave it a shot even with how busy life is!! ;v;
i’d love to give reccs, and i’ll try to go a beginner friendly route! tbh you can pick up whatever here, but since you've read R:SOB i’d immediately follow up with Batman and Robin (2011) #1-8! this first arc is what’s referred to in Maya’s introduction, and it's just. so good.
Main Books
Batman and Robin (2009)
Dick as Batman with Damian as his Robin!
#20-22 Tree of Blood: Dark Knight vs White Knight arc is done by Tomasi and Gleason, the team for the next Batman and Robin series
*Batman and Robin (2011)
Bruce and Damian figuring out their relationship as both Batman & Robin and father & son
imo you can enjoy the ride and read straight through this but i’ll add context to avoid as much confusion as possible since there’s the occasional tie-in or offscreen events, like Damian’s death nbd
Batman Incorporated (2012) #1-10
events leading to Damian's death - affects Batman and Robin (2011) from issue #18
kind of a tough read especially with how Talia's written, but a lot of iconic bits like Batcow, Damian's vegetarian declaration, Alfred the cat, "We Were the Best, Richard."
Robin (2021)
another self-discovery adventure, particularly after Alfred’s death and a fallout with Bruce (and questionable writing choices from his last Teen Titans run)
Batman and Robin (2023)
currently ongoing! after a number of events, Bruce and Damian are back as a duo
Damian Dynamics!
Batman: Streets of Gotham (2009) #7, 10-12
arc where Damian meets one of his first Gotham friends, Colin Wilkes
Batgirl (2009) #5-7, #17
Steph and Damian dynamic! "the bad cop, worse cop" dysfunctional duo
Red Robin (2009) #13-14
early Tim and Damian dynamic that of course includes fighting haha. funny enough, accidentally my first intro to Damian LOL
Teen Titans (2003) #89-92
Dick!Batman has Damian join the Teen Titans. Start of Damian and Rose Wilson dynamic that’s extended in Robin (2021)
Batman: Gates of Gotham (2011)
Damian meets Cass and has a brief team up
Gotham Academy (2015) #7
Damian meets Maps Mizoguchi! they have a few other meetings, but outside of that the series itself is a great read!
Robin War Event (2015)
Robin War (2015) #1, Grayson (2014) #15, Detective Comics (2011) #47, We Are Robin (2015) #7, Robin: Son of Batman (2015) #7, Robin War (2015) #2
Duke and Damian dynamic! not exactly beginner friendly but these are the main issues in order for the event! you can also read the TPB version for everything including Tie-Ins
Nightwing (2016) #16-20, #42, #43
#16-20 Nightwing and Robin arc!
#42 Dick on a mission to save Damian! the one appearance of "Wiggles" the dragon
#43 Dick, Roy, and Damian team-up
New Talent Showcase 2018 "Catwoman: Pedigree"
Selina, Damian, and Alfred the cat
Batman: Prelude to the Wedding - Robin vs. Ra's Al Ghul (2018)
Selina, Damian, and Cheese Viking - Damian's fav game shown in Nightwing: Rebirth (2016)
Monkey Prince (2022) #1-4
Marcus Sun Shugel-Shen's main comic, but Damian features as a fun dynamic here before they're in more serious circumstances in Batman VS Robin (2022)/Lazarus Planet event
Superman (2016) #10 - 11
the beginning of the Super Sons! featuring Maya!
Super Sons (2017)
solitary arcs but there’s a few event tie-in issues later
Adventures of the Super Sons (2018)
literally more Super Sons adventures lol galactic shenanigans yeehaw
Challenge of the Super Sons (2020)
Super Sons time shenanigans feat. the Justice League
Robin 80th Anniversary (2020)
"Boy Wonders" - brief Damian feature as Tim considers his next step in life
"My Best Friend" - Jon's thoughts on Damian and their dynamic
"Bat and Mouse" - refers to Damian's unfortunate Teen Titans (2016) run at the time of release which follows up with Teen Titans Annual #2 where Damian briefly gives up Robin
Extra Comics!
Superman/Batman (2003) #77
Kara and Damian in a Halloween team-up! also the appearance of "Li'l Matches" lol
DCU Halloween Special '09 "Cavity Search"
Damian out on a solo mission for Halloween night. Immediately after is Tim's Red Robin story "Then and Now: Our Father's Sins" which is more somber in contrast but also a good read!
DCU Halloween Special 2010 "Robin the Vampire Slayer"
a Dick!Batman and Robin story featuring the vampire Andrew Bennett
Cursed Comics Cavalcade (2018) "The Devil You Know"
Halloween themed comic with a sweet short story of Damian alongside Solomon Grundy
DC's Terrors Through Time (2022)
"Trick or Treat" a Super Sons Halloween story
"The Haunting of Wayne Manor" Damian and Deadman story - in the end, Boston kinda refers to Nezha's possession of Damian in Batman VS Robin (2022) which was happening at the time of this release
Batman: Li'l Gotham (2013)
lighthearted series that instantly makes me smile with the silliness and Dustin Nguyen’s art i love this dearly
Secret Origins (2014) #4 "A Boy's Life"
a retelling of Damian's origin story
Detective Comics (2016) #1001-1005
Batman and Robin vs the Arkham Knight (unrelated to the game)
Truth & Justice (2021) #6/#16 - 18 Digital First version
cute story of Damian’s birthday! Juni Ba’s art is so fun!!
DC Festival of Heroes: The Asian Superhero Celebration (2021) “Special Delivery”
short story about Damian! and poisoned pizzas. completely forgot the artist Sami Basri drew Rebirth Damian here before catboy Damian lol Cass’s story “Sounds” is also cute! Marcus makes his first appearance in "The Monkey Prince Hates Superheroes"
DC VS Vampires (2021)
Damian makes appearances throughout this elseworlds book, but the one-shot DC VS Vampires: Hunters (2022) is vampire Damian-centric!
Batman: Black and White (2021) #5
“Father & Son Outing” short story written and drawn by Jorge Jimenez!
Batman: Urban Legends (2021) #20-23
#20 “My Son” Talia and Bruce focus
#20 - 23 “The Murder Club” 4 Parts
Tiny Titans (2008) #33, #39, #45, #47
a few appearances but SO CUTE, LOOK AT HIM
*Batman and Robin (2011) reading guide
i'm mostly trying to avoid the "what did i just walk in on?" kinda feeling when i first started reading comics LOL i'll list the comics where events take place, but you don't necessarily have to read them to go through this book since things are usually explained as quickly as possible in the first page or so
#0 Someday Never Comes
Talia and baby Damian before he grows up to meet Bruce
#1-8 Born to Kill
just an incredibly solid arc for Bruce and Damian!
#9 Court of Owls Tie-In Issue
Damian VS a Court of Owls Talon. While Bruce is occupied with a home invasion of Talons, Alfred makes a call for allies to protect targeted Gotham public figures from Talons. During Batman (2011) #1-11
#10-12 Terminus
Damian challenges the previous Robins sans Steph
Batman Incorporated (2012) is occurring at this time where Talia has placed a bounty on Damian and there's small mentions of that
#13-14 Eclipsed/Devoured
mostly solitary arc! end of it leads into the Death of the Family event
#15-16 Death of the Family Tie-In Issues
Damian and Joker face-off... Alfred's been kidnapped by the Joker, and Damian goes looking for him. During Batman (2011) #13-17
#17 Life is but a Dream - Death of the Family Epilogue
a sort of subconscious check-in through the dreams of Damian, Alfred, and Bruce. Nightwing (2011) #17 features Damian encouraging Dick after Death of the Family events
#18 Undone "Requiem"
Bruce dealing with Damian's death from Batman Incorporated #8
other reactions to Damian's death: Dick in Nightwing (2011) #18, Tim in Teen Titans (2011) #18
#19-23 Denial, Rage, The Bargain, Despair, Acceptance
Bruce through the stages of grief with some batfam appearances in each. also introduces Carrie Kelley into continuity as Damian's acting tutor.
Batman (2011) #19-20 also addresses Bruce's loss
#23.1-23.4
these could be skipped - villain stories, also related to Forever Evil event.
#24-28 The Big Burn
optional Batman and Two-Face/Harvey Dent arc, #23.1 is part of this story!
Damian's resurrection and return
#29-32 The Hunt for Robin
Ras took Talia and Damian's bodies from their graves, and Bruce goes after him.
-> Robin Rises: Omega
continues events from #32. if you don't want to jump to this, basically, Glorious Godfrey and a bunch of parademons from Apokolips are here for a chaos shard which Ra's put in Damian's sarcophagus. at some point, Bruce gets a hold of the shard where he sees a vision that leads him to believe Damian can be resurrected. Godfrey ends up taking the shard, along with Damian's body since it was emitting the same energy.
#33-37 Robin Rises
Bruce hellbent on retrieving Damian from Apokolips and reviving him
-> Robin Rises: Alpha
necessary to read and continues events from #37! Damian's back with a bang lol
#38-40 Superpower
Damian adjusting to having superpowers and being alive again
Annual #1 2013 Batman Impossible
sweet (and funny) one-shot of Damian sending Bruce on a meaningful scavenger hunt around the world while Damian gets to be the cutest Batman for a bit
Annual #2 2014 Batman and Robin: Week One
one-shot takes place during Damian's absence. after Bruce and Alfred find a mystery gift left for Dick, Dick recounts a story he had told Damian from his Robin days.
Annual #3 2015 Moonshot
one-shot Batman and Robin adventure on the moon!
...and of course after Batman and Robin (2011), Damian's story continues in his first solo Robin: Son of Batman (2015)!
240 notes
·
View notes