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heavymetalchemist · 3 years

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I think it’s easy to forget that Wei Wuxian is strongly villain-coded. We see the story from his perspective, we know his reasons and justifications, if you’re watching CQL and paying attention you can figure out the core transfer before the reveal. We know that Wen Qing and Wen Ning are good guys. We know that the Burial Mounds gang is a bunch of tired uncle/aunts trying to grow some stupid radishes, a four year old, and the Disaster Bi Gang (none of whom have swords, even!) We know that Wei Wuxian has his heart in the right place, that he feels an incredibly strong debt to the Wen Siblings and by extension their remaining family, that he has no golden core and has no choice but to forsake the sword and cultivate the demonic path, that he defects from the Jiang sect in a fake fight with his brother so that the Jiang sect won’t suffer the consequences of his actions, even though they have Secret Soup later.

But if you’re not us, the audience? If you’re, for example, Sect Leader Yao?

Hey did you all hear about how Wei Wuxian got kicked out of the Cloud Recesses for violently lashing out at the Jin sect heir?

Hey did you all see how he doesn’t carry his sword any more and claims it’s because he’s so badass that he doesn’t need it? And he has that Stygian tiger seal, so maybe it’s not bullshit? Can you even fight against that with a sword?

What kind of power does this guy even have? He’s a teenager! He drinks all the time and he’s moody and surly and holy shit did you hear what he did at that Wen outpost? He tortured all of them to death! Ugly stuff, man. Gruesome way to go. Maybe even worse than what Wen Ruohan did, at least a hot poker doesn’t make you claw your own eyes out.

Oh shit, he just stormed into this banquet and just SAID “if I want to kill someone who can stop me” and he still has that tiger seal I think we should be worried???

He just busted a bunch of Wen cultivators out of prison! And then he ran off to the Burial Mounds??? And his sect leader didn’t even know anything about it? Is he going rogue? Is he starting an uprising? This demonic cultivation stuff really seems to be corrupting him!

Oh man he got kicked out of the Jiang sect? You mean even the man he grew up with, who he was raised with practically as a brother, can’t control him any more? Did you hear about his fierce corpse? They call him the Ghost General! He’s unstoppable! What are we going to do if he comes for us?

He could be building a whole army in there, Sect Leader Jin said so! Who knows what kind of sick, twisted stuff he’s getting up to! Don’t forget all that horrible shit in the Sunshot Campaign, remember when he was raising the Wens’ own dead to turn against them? He could do that to us! He’s working with the Wens now, even! He’s gone totally crazy!

We can’t let some outlaw have all this power. It’s putting the safety of all of us at risk. What if it’s just another Wen Ruohan waiting to happen? (especially applicable if you’re thinking he’s using Yin iron as in CQL!) If we let him consolidate his power too much, then he’ll be unstoppable!

HOLY SHIT he murdered the Jin sect heir and his cousin with his fierce corpse! That’s the man his former shijie married! The one he punched in the Cloud Recesses, remember when the Lans kicked him out because he was so unruly and disrespectful? Yeah! It was probably revenge! Have we done anything to him? Oh gods what if we’re next???

A major point of MDZS/CQL is how important reputation is, and how that affects everything. Wei Wuxian’s reputation is straight-up villainous. We, the audience, know that he’s trying his best, that he’s a traumatized teenager with a shitload of emotional baggage trying to do the right thing and repay a colossal debt, that he’s made choices that he now has to try and live with, etc. But to the rest of the world this guy has fucking lost it, he’s gone off the deep end and he has an incredibly powerful weapon and a mode of cultivation that seems to corrupt you and turn you into a monster, and frankly, they’re not wrong! It does affect his temperament and he does end up killing a lot of people and he is out of control!

MDZS/CQL is interesting precisely because we’re getting an entire Villain Apology Story. A long time ago I read a post by someone on here saying they find Jiang Cheng challenging to write about because he’s the protagonist of a different story, and he really is. He’s the guy whose former shixiong turns into a villain in pursuit of power, the Obi-Wan to WWX’s Anakin, the one who sees how incredible power corrupts and is obligated to fight against it. Having to fight against a former ally who was seduced by “the dark side” (in this case, demonic cultivation) is a story that gets told over and over, but always condemning the one who went to the dark side. He’s the blackened protagonist, the aren’t you tired of being nice, don’t you want to go ape shit power fantasy, where we as the audience can justify his actions because we know he did it to save his brother, his sister, the Wen remnants he owes a debt to. He isolates himself from the people who love him to protect them, he refuses Lan Wangji’s help because he’s convinced he just wants to lock him up and stop him from using demonic cultivation because he’s a righteous upstanding Lan (totally unaware of LWJ’s intense crush, obviously). He jokes about it but he knows he’s being painted as the villain, and he’s in denial about how much that will affect him, because after all… he’s the Yiling Laozu, and he knows his power. But so does everyone else, and they’re rightfully terrified!

And yet? When he comes back, LWJ still wants him, still cares for him, will move heaven and earth to protect him. JC cares about him so much he’s having a Constant Crisis about it. And WWX has not forgotten his shijie or shidi, immediately cares about Jin Ling, and still is the man who really just wanted to be free and grow some goddamn radishes. He accepts that he paid for what he’s done with his death, and just wants to start over.

It just drives me nuts when people pretend like WWX was an angel who did nothing wrong because the whole POINT is that he was a villain-coded gay (well, bi) and the man you had to really watch out for was the polite, thoughtful, soft-spoken one that worked his way up from a tragic backstory. It’s a whole subversion and it’s awesome!

#mdzs meta #wei wuxian #yiling laozu #of course wwx has a good heart but remember when that kid shot an arrow at him and he threw it right back through his heart?#remember when JC and LWJ walked into that Wen outpost and were like oh fuck oh man what the fuck?#remember when he almost busted out chenqing to murder JZX over a SOUP MISUNDERSTANDING?#this is not a wwx hate post this is a pls understand complex characters and nuance post #that audience knowledge is NOT character knowledge #is this a lowkey NMJ defense post? yes.

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gloriousmonsters · 2 years

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random complaint but. fics where su she shows up as a disciple and is being rude and loudly vaguing about lan wangji etc annoy me on the basic level of ‘usually being in wangxian fics where he’s a cheaply done villain or person the protags can lord it over to feel superior’ but it also just bothers me So much on a characterization level. it took years for sms to build up the confidence to be the bitch we know and love him as later in the book! as a teen + young man we mainly see him splitting his time between panic attacks, going nonverbal due to fear/social awkwardness/feeling bad, and either reacting with guilt, apologizing, or explaining himself in response to being challenged on stuff/donig something wrong. yes this is book characterization but this goes doubly for cql su she because cql su she isn’t just soft-spoken as a disciple, he never even has the Sword Yeet Incident and they added him asking lxc if he would let him take care of the water ghoul situation ‘because you have so much to do’. he’s adorable! i know these people aren’t listening but stop making sms rude and bitchy as a disciple!

#actually not fully random prompted by revisiting some of tgcf #where xl doesn't recognize mq at first because 'he always sounded so different in the past'#and it's a similar case of someone being soft-spoken and more noticeably anxious in the past #vs. them being bitchy and outspoken now #tbh even stuff that's more positive toward him will have him being super brash as a teen #(sometimes; and ymmv on whether he'd be more outspoken in private this is more Headcanon Territory)#and i'm like despite the hilarious venn diagram overlap; he is not lan jingyi #and tbh you can make up your mind over whether he even hated/resented lwj or any of the lans at that age #but if he did he certainly didn't SAY it #su she #su minshan

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songofclarity · 3 years

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when you said "[Huaisang] took taking down jgy so seriously and so professionally; he has no cheering moment or hail of victory" I was reminded of another post I saw about the moment at the beginning of NMJ's Empathy flashback where the disciples are celebrating the victory over the puppets but NMJ only looks grim. It's something the Nie bros have in common: both consider violence and killing to be necessary and justified— but it's a grim duty, to be undertaken with seriousness, not satisfaction

Yes, that comparison is exactly it, Anon! I do appreciate how CQL ensured Nie MingJue was all business during his fights. Even at the banquet when the Sunshot Campaign was over and done with, his group arrived late (‘Sorry I’m late, I didn’t want to come’) and he looked miserable. Not even an official victory party could put a smile on his face, much less encourage him to celebrate three years of hard work!

I would hesitate, however, before accusing the Nie brothers of finding violence and/or killing as necessary. Those are just tools in the tool box and they could be taken out as needed but they weren’t always needed, much less required. We see time and time again how the Nie brothers pick non-violent options when violence and murder would make their lives so much easier. And this choice between violence and non-violence is important. This is the choice that separates them both from Jin GuangYao. Because when it comes down to it, what was the point of having fought against the Wen Sect if they were all just to become violent and murderous themselves?

For convenience, I have outlined Nie MingJue’s 5 year plan here:

Fight a war against a violent sect

Win even if it might cost him his own life

Go home and live in peace

Nie MingJue stayed his hand from murder not once, not twice, but three times when confronted directly with a cold-blooded murderer. He picked suffering Meng Yao/Jin GuangYao to live over easily justifiable back-alley execution. He banged on the doors of Koi Tower demanding Xue Yang be turned over to him, but never used violence to take matters into his own hands, not even when he held Baxia at Xue Yang’s throat and could have ended the discussion right then and there.

The only people Nie MingJue ever killed were nameless cultivators on the battlefield; nameless cultivators when he was being held prisoner in the Sun Palace; and Wen Xu, a declared enemy met on the battlefield. There is no evidence or accusations that he ever killed anyone after the Sunshot Campaign, not at the Burial Mounds and not when he had his qi deviation.

Nie HuaiSang, for his part, could have just stabbed Jin GuangYao in the chest when he was crying on him and be done with it. Violence is easy. Murder is easy.

For the Nie brothers, violence was never necessary, but justice was. And there is no justice if you just become the beast you fought to defeat, so rules and morals must be taken into account.

Nie MingJue decided, on his own, to send Meng Yao back to his father to face justice after the murder of the Jin disciple. Nie HuaiSang worked to expose Jin GuangYao’s crimes and let the world decide on their own whether or not Jin GuangYao’s crimes deserved punishment.

Nie MingJue followed the rules. He played fair. He asked for permission. He talked in private. He made his demands. He was aggressive, but he never killed to get his way. How easy it would have been if he killed to get his way like Jin GuangYao did! But he didn’t. Nie MingJue was good. Nie MingJue died.

Nie HuaiSang picked up where Nie MingJue left off. The letter to Qin Su was just a letter to Qin Su revealing some of Jin GuangYao’s crimes. Jin GuangYao got away with murdering the Jin disciple all those years ago, and now he’s going to get away with direct involvement in the murder of his own child? Or baby-trapping and then marrying his own sister? No, no he is not. And he’s absolutely not getting away with Nie MingJue’s murder or dismemberment.

Nie HuaiSang still never picked violence. He never picked murder. He never told people what to do or how to do it, and he certainly never held a weapon in his hand. That’s the beauty of his revenge.

As the saying goes: the pen is mightier than the sword. He picked letting the information speak for itself and giving other people the option to use violence, but that was never their only option. Sadly, no revenge plan, no matter one taken as seriously as this one, is foolproof when other people are involved. Qin Su and the letter were discovered by Jin GuangYao, who then blackmailed her, imprisoned her, and then pushed her to suicide. This shows the depth of Jin GuangYao’s cruelty. Jin GuangYao reacting in violence is a Jin GuangYao problem.

As another saying goes: do not shoot the messenger. We already saw how the Jin Sect protected and absolved Xue Yang of his well-documented mass murder. Nie HuaiSang would have heard about how Jin GuangYao, Jiang Cheng, and Lan XiChen were all OK with the Jin protecting Xue Yang while Nie MingJue and popular rogue cultivator Xiao XingChen were very much not. In order to make Jin GuangYao face justice, the one choice Nie HuaiSang never had was to stand up and speak out and expose Jin GuangYao’s crimes. Xiao XingChen tried that with Xue Yang and it got him a fate worse than death. Nie MingJue tried to stand up to the Jin Sect and it got him betrayed and his death to look like an unfortunate event, not even a murder. So instead, Nie HuaiSang got the information out there as secretly as possible and let everyone else decide on what to do with it.

And thankfully everyone agreed with him that Jin GuangYao was trash. No violence was needed to help them see the light. Jin GuangYao made his bed and now he has to sleep in it.

Violence is only a Nie brother final resort when justice is about to be evaded. Nie MingJue is so horrified after the Sun Palace that he’s willing to kill Meng Yao and then himself over the murder of his subordinates. Meng Yao uses the “I saved your life” get-out-of-jail free card, which not only threatens to hold Nie MingJue hostage to a life debt but also means at least two cultivators where killed to save Nie MingJue’s one life. That’s terrible math! Where is the justice in this?? But in case he is in the wrong, Nie MingJue agrees to kill himself too, so justice WILL be served one way or another before Meng Yao runs away again.

Violence and murder are indeed grim tools for a serious duty and they need to be handled respectfully and with resolve! Note how Nie HuaiSang at no point lies and says, “I had no choice.” It was his choice to send the letters, it was his choice to put himself in danger at the Second Burial Mounds Siege and at Guanyin Temple, and it was his choice to save Sisi from her unlawful imprisonment and let her speak on her own behalf. This boy had choices, choices other than violence and murder, and he never victimized himself by claiming otherwise. He never pleaded innocence or passed the blame. He simply dodged the discussion entirely, but the ending shows he knows what he did and why.

Nie HuaiSang, "Wei-xiong, why do you keep on asking me? No matter how much you ask, I don't know anything." With a pause, he continued, "But..." Slowly, Nie HuaiSang brushed together his storm-drenched hair. "I think that if this person hates Jin GuangYao so much, they'd probably be entirely merciless towards something he cherishes more than his life." (Ch. 109, ERS)

Nie HuaiSang has so much conviction that his cavalier attitude after Jin GuangYao's death is so cold that if anyone touched him they would probably be burned. When Nie HuaiSang lies, he says, “I don’t know.” He knows the importance of information and he’s not about to expose himself for having any that might get him killed. Nie HuaiSang’s fight was different than Nie MingJue’s in tone and shape, but Nie HuaiSang kept the same agenda and, frankly, played by the same rules as his Nie MingJue.

Some rules Nie MingJue lives by:

Outside input is important

Don't kill people for the rewards

Have conviction in your choices

Jin GuangYao was in the process of fleeing justice at Guanyin Temple just like he fled justice at Langya. Jin GuangYao laid a trap for Nie MIngJue at Langya and there was no doubt going to be a trap at Guanyin Temple--so Nie HuaiSang sprung one on him first.

“Brother XiChen, behind you!!!” (Ch. 108, ERS)

And the choice to stab Jin GuangYao was Lan XiChen’s, not Nie HuaiSang’s, although Nie HuaiSang was determined to see justice prevail and that treacherous Third Brother brought down.

Of interest, Nie HuaiSang’s ten year agenda:

Expose Jin GuangYao’s violent crimes

Win even if it might cost him his own life

Go home and live in peace

Violence and murder were never on the agenda. They aren’t necessary. They were never necessary. The tragedy is thinking that they might be, and that’s Jin GuangYao’s tragedy, not the Nie brothers. Nie MingJue’s behavior shows a man who thought if he fought hard enough, pushed hard enough, allowed redemption arcs to a murderer, tried to work with people who didn’t want to work with him, peace might find a way.

Violence was only needed because Jin GuangYao could not be stopped in any other way. He burned the brothel down with all the women inside it to hide his past and he tried to massacre the whole cultivation world to hide his crimes. Considering the amount of death the Nie brothers have faced, from family dead from qi deviations to piles of bodies on the battlefield to allies killed to save their lives, I dare say the Nie brothers had a respectful relationship with violence and murder because they wanted to escape the cycle the most.

#anon #asked from above #nie mingjue #nie huaisang #jgy vs nmj #nhs vs jgy #nie brothers #mdzs thoughts #there is absolutely NO reason this response needs to be this long #please excuse me anon i'm just full of nie brother feelings all day every day lol

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xiyao-feels · 3 years

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Hi! May I ask a The Untamed question: Why does Meng Yao return the jade pass? What is it and why is it important? Lan Xichen seemed a bit upset, surprised but also resigned to it simultaneously.

Hi! So—/why/ Jin Guangyao returns the jade pass is an interesting question, and there are various different opinions on the matter. I think it's best if I start with the second part of your question: what is it and why is it important?

The Lan use the jade passes as a security measure; you need one to get in and out of CR. JGY has a pass which previously allowed him access to CR, but LXC changed it; this time, when he came, it didn't allow him in.

I think it's worth taking a fuller look at the jade passes, which in this case means looking at MDZS.

We first see them, I believe, in chapter 11. In MDZS, WWX a) believes LWJ hates him and b) doesn't realize LWJ has recognized him. He pitches a fit outside the gates of CR because he doesn't want to go inside, because without a jade token that allows you in and out, he won't be able to leave:

If he was dragged inside, it would be extremely difficult for him to come outside again. Back then, when he came to study, all of the disciples were given a jade token for passage. Only with the token, would a person be able to enter and leave freely, or else they couldn’t pass through the protective barrier of the Cloud Recesses. After ten years had passed, the security could only have gotten stricter, instead of looser.

After he's inside, he tries to see if he could escape without the token, but no dice:

Lan WangJi went to see his uncle to discuss serious matters, while Wei WuXian was pushed into the room. Right after Lan WangJi left, Wei WuXian also went outside. He strolled around the Cloud Recesses, and found that, as he had expected, without the jade token for passage, even if he climbed up the white walls of a few zhangs’ height, he would be immediately flung off by the barrier, attracting the attentions of the nearby patrolmen at once.

In chapter 65, we see that LWJ is able to detect when someone tried to come through the wards without one:

Wei WuXian slept sometime later. He was asleep until early morning when he suddenly woke up. With a shiver, he crawled forward and looked up. Lan WangJi’s was still dressed, sword was on his back. As he took back the hand that he had put on Wei WuXian’s shoulder, he stared at a white object within his palm, “We have an uninvited guest.”

Wei WuXian squinted to see. The object was the GusuLan Sect’s jade token of passage. He could recall that Lan WangJi’s token was a very high level, able to alert him if others intruded over the barrier of the GusuLan Sect.

This was JGY coming, the very same trip he returns the jade token, because now it's no longer working. WWX concludes that LWJ modified its access at some point in the last couple of days:

Wei WuXian understood now. Since ZeWu-Jun and LianFang-Zun had quite a good relationship, Lan XiChen had given Jin GuangYao a token of passage as well so that he could visit freely. However, it was likely that within the past few days he had either edited the prohibitions of the Cloud Recesses’ barrier or retracted the permission of Jin GuangYao’s token of passage. When Jin GuangYao came to visit, he was refused permission to enter, and thus he voluntarily returned the token.

In chapter 119, LWJ tells WWX that the jade token he gave him can also be used to withdraw money when he needs it:

Wei WuXian, “[…] Oh, right. HanGuang-Jun, I’m out of money. Give me a bit more, won’t you?”

Lan WangJi, “Simply take the jade token to withdraw the money.”

Wei WuXian let out a muffled laugh, “Apart from letting me in and out of the barrier, that jade token you gave me… can also let me draw money?”

“Yes.”

Though I very much doubt that Jin Guangyao ever used it for that.

I can't find reference to anyone other than JGY and WWX being given tokens permanently (like, aside from the visiting disciples), so only Jin Guangyao who didn't live among the Lan. (Although since the damn tokens aren't referred to by a single consistent name, I could be missing something.)

See also this bit in ch 80, from the second siege:

Wei WuXian laughed, “Who said that you have to go inside the Room of Forbidden Books? Wouldn’t it be fine as long as your master can go in at will? The methods of tampering with the sheet music—he was probably also the one who taught you that, right?”

A person of power free to travel in and out of the Cloud Recesses at will. There was no need to say out loud whom Su She’s master was. Everyone knew—it could only be LianFang-Zun!

It's not actually totally clear to me how much of this carries into CQL canon. For example, we don't have the WWX trying to escape from CR plotline in CQL, so from what I remember I don't think we see him testing the wards and being flung off the walls. And more than that: in CQL we don't get the scene where LWJ detects JGY's visit through his own token, meaning Wangxian's presence during the meeting comes across more as something LXC deliberately set up. I think you could read it in if you really wanted, but it's definitely reading against the text.

(Incidentally, to me in CQL LXC doesn't seem surprised when JGY puts the pass on the table, but I think he very much is surprised when JGY says I'm returning it to you; that's not the direction he was expecting this to go. Episode 43, 31:17-31:37, if you want to check yourself.)

Okay, so, now we have all the context. Why does Jin Guangyao return the jade pass? He says that it's because it stopped working, sure, fine—but why did it not working mean he returned it?

To the best of my knowledge—though as ever I could be wrong—we don't get any more information than that in the text, which means it's a matter for meta and speculation. This is where I'd usually tell you what I think and why, except... honestly, I'm not sure. I haven't yet settled on something that feels right to me.

I've seen the ideas that he was distancing himself, or that he was reacting as though it was a complete rejection—it's certainly true that being completely rejected is his usual experience, see NMJ and QS. I can follow the logic, but it doesn't quite work for me? First because it's followed by his reassuring LXC on the subject of LWJ's reputation and the possibility of CR being searched, and then inviting LXC to Carp Tower for a conference about the Burial Mounds, but also...hmmm. Retreating like that is—not really how he usually operates? You see it with NMJ, you see it with QS—he keeps reaching out, he keeps trying to explain himself. In MDZS he stops after the stairs, but at that point he's very thoroughly done with NMJ and I think we can agree he's not there with LXC; in CQL he keeps trying even after he's decided NMJ has to go. Now it's true QS literally just killed herself! so he might not be reacting as usual and all. But...mmm, I don't know. He says it himself (ch 106): “I can’t help it. To seek pity even after doing all the bad things—that’s the kind of person I am.”

Okay, so why the heck /does/ he do it? Welllll...it could be practical considerations—maybe it would be a risk for the Lan if the token got into the hands of an enemy, say, and he's not sure he'll be able to protect it. But honestly that's not very satisfying, and there doesn't seem to be any evidence in the text that I can remember? So I think it makes sense to look elsewhere.

Maybe he actually is trying to respect LXC's boundaries, especially since they don't have time to hash this out. Maybe he figures that—well, we don't know exactly how the second siege would have played out without Wangxian's intervention, but it seems pretty likely that it would have involved damaging the Lan, which is LXC's care and to whom until now JGY has been the staunchest of allies; a way of acknowledging the damage he's doing, even if it won't be understood until later. Maybe he's trying to send a message to LXC: shit is going down, are you in or out? Maybe he's trying to knock LXC off balance; LXC certainly seems off balance for the conversation, reacting rather than acting. Maybe it's to distance LXC from him in like, the potential eyes of the crowd; they've been close and public allies for so long, and now he's trying to help make sure LXC doesn't he pulled down with him if he goes down. Maybe it's a farewell gesture—not so much to LXC, but to the life he's been living, to the precise shape of relationship they had. Maybe it's giving LXC something safe to remember him by—a token, but not something it will look weird if LXC keeps, because he still hopes that LXC will want to remember him. Maybe it's meant as a reminder of the help he has given the Lan. I don't know! I don't know. I do at some point want to sit with the text and seriously work this out, but I also want to get this out for you, anon, so you actually have the information you asked for XP

I think right now I'm leaning towards—some combination of farewell to this part of the life he's been living and the shape of his relationship with LXC (but not saying farewell to /any/ relationship with LXC), and—giving LXC a token of that time. But right now I'm just not sure.

(MDZS quotes all taken from the ER translation)

#a gentle warmth filling the deepest of needs #more than one tag could contain #the best of men #long meta

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franniebanana · 3 years

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CQL Rewatch - Ep 20

Iconic. Seeing Wei Wuxian back and better than ever is so satisfying! That flute playing that probably we’ve all forgotten about since the first two episodes becomes a repeating leitmotif throughout the series. It’s just as iconic as Wei Wuxian himself. And what I love about this shot here is how the light hits his eyes, and from this specific camera angle, it looks like a mask on his face! I just thought that was super cool. Whether it was intentional or not, I have no idea, but I like to think it was. I guess it’s like a reverse mask in this case—everything is hidden except his eyes.

It’s amazing how I only went without Wei Wuxian for like half an episode, yet it felt like so much longer. The emotional weight that he carries is so great that from all the characters searching for him, it feels like it’s actually been three months, instead of more like twenty-five minutes. And I think that’s something that we can feel in CQL but we can’t really feel in the book. Since the book is written in third person limited, we only see Wei Wuxian’s side of the story (I think that’s accurate, but it’s been a few months since I read it). That being the case, we never leave Wei Wuxian’s side, we never get to miss him being there. Of course the story is framed totally differently in the book and not in chronological order, even—lots of flip-flopping, which is fun but also a little confusing when you’re trying to keep track of a timeline.

I think part of what makes Wang Lingjao so creepy here is that her garish makeup is totally gone: her face is pale and ghoulish, with just the bright red blood trickling out of her nose, mouth, and cut on her cheek. I think they could have made her even more ghostly, but I like what they did for her apparition. It’s fun to see how fast Wen Chao cracks, though. He’s very much all bark and no bite—honestly, such a coward. On the one hand, it’s satisfying to watch him lose it, but on the other, it’s quite disturbing. I toe the line between enjoying it and being disgusted by it, but I love that CQL at least kept in this part of Wei Wuxian’s character. It’s like revenge, no matter how bloody, is okay in Chinese tv, but not the main character being kind of bad. I don’t get why they had to nerf his character to the point of absolving him of all guilt with everything that happened. I like a character who makes bad choices, but feels guilty for it, because that shows depth. Someone who bad things happen to because of the “real villain” aren’t as interesting to me. I think also that Xiao Zhan would have been amazing as the real Wei Wuxian from the book, had they adapted him that way. I also would have really, really loved to see the scene that is only really described to us (I think by Lan Xichen) where a distraught and delusional Wei Wuxian rejects Lan Wangji. Ugh, that would have been so heart-wrenching! Maybe in the donghua…sigh….

So this is important, I think. There was a point in the last episode where Jin Zixuan tells his cousin not to let the crows peck at the dead bodies of their enemies. In other words, don’t desecrate the bodies, even if they are the enemy. Of course, Jin Zixuan didn’t hold any personal grudges towards any of them, at least that we know of. Jiang Cheng certainly does. So even though Wang Lingjao is already dead by her own hand, he whips her with Zidian. Jiang Cheng is becoming more and more twisted by his anger and grief, which he never deals with in a healthy way. He wants revenge against those that have wronged him and his parents, and he really never stops seeking revenge throughout the story. First it’s against the Wens, and then it’s against Wei Wuxian. It’s a fairly slow descent, I think, over years, but I quite like watching him twist like this. While it’s fun and interesting watching someone repent and have a redemption arc, it’s also interesting watching them go the other way.

Lan Wangji seems to know, or at least suspect, that the person who has killed everyone in the Supervisory Office, including Wang Lingjao, is Wei Wuxian. A talent for using talismans (one of which Lan Wangji used himself to escape the Wens), someone who is seeking revenge against the Wen Clan—these things point to Wei Wuxian in his mind. He doesn’t want to say this to Jiang Cheng, he doesn’t even want to admit it himself, but he’s putting the pieces together. I think this is a frightening thought for him. On the one hand, he would be happy to find Wei Wuxian alive, but on the other, what state would they find him in? And what does it mean that he’s killed all these people singlehandedly? This isn’t the Wei Wuxian that Lan Wangji knows and cares so deeply about. This isn’t the man that Lan Wangji was ready to die for. I think his heart is very much filled with dread in this scene.

Jiang Cheng’s line is interesting too—basically, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Solid, really, but it does come with some problems in reality. The enemy of your enemy just might stab you in the back later. It’s a very simplistic view, but I think at this point, Jiang Cheng is just happy to see the Wens dead. There are a few he wants to kill himself, but he seems satisfied if they just die out, regardless of who does it.

I like seeing Lan Wangji and Jiang Cheng team up for these few episodes, because it’s fun seeing how they each approach the situations. Jiang Cheng relies heavily on his heart and emotions, which I can totally identify with. He wants to find Wei Wuxian and he wants revenge on Wen Zhuliu and Wen Chao—those are his two priorities. And then Lan Wangji is definitely more of a logical person—he wants to get to the bottom of these deaths and find out who is the person with so much wicked energy that is doing all of it—and also, that person is probably Wei Wuxian, who he is very interested in finding. Here Jiang Cheng wants to rush after Wen Zhuiliu, just as he did when he went back to Lotus Pier. He’s very rash, while Lan Wangji is much more calm and collected. I mean, if it were me, I’d want to see if they would give up any information before I killed them.

And the reveal is…Wen Chao is fucking disgusting! I didn’t even want to screencap one of the close-ups, because I felt like I’d have to do a trigger warning for blood lol. Not really, though, because I never do, sorry. I love the looks on Jiang Cheng’s and Lan Wangji’s faces, though. Jiang Cheng is so horrified and Lan Wangji is just mildly shocked. I think the real thing is like, who are we dealing with here? Who is this monster who’s been murdering everyone in all these different ways? Who has made Wen Chao look like this? Is this friend or foe? Like I said, Jiang Cheng keeps saying that as long as the person is killing the Wens, he’s fine with it, but I think even he is bothered by this level of mutilation, even against someone he loathes.

It’s hilarious to me that Wen Zhuliu uses this tactic with Wen Chao. Oh, you’re going to insult me? I’m useless? Okay, bye! LOL. Also very amusing that this is really the last conversation they have with each other: this bickering that they’ve probably done over and over off screen. Wen Zhuliu stays by Wen Chao’s side, though, because he’s indebted to Wen Ruohan, of course. It would have been a neat twist to see Wen Zhuliu defect. And you still could have had a dramatic scene where Jiang Cheng chases him down.

I love it! I love it I love it I love it! The flute! This part is so well done (it’s still a little campy, of course, but that’s part of the charm)! I mean, as the audience, we all know who it is by now, but I love that they keep up the mystery because Lan Wangji and Jiang Cheng still don’t know. They didn’t see him walk in. I just love this.

And shock. Jiang Cheng looks significantly more surprised. It had never crossed his mind that the person doing all this was actually Wei Wuxian, the very individual that he’s been searching for. Lan Wangji, on the other hand, doesn’t really look surprised. He looks a little surprised, okay—I’ll give you that. But I think most of what he’s feeling right now is the deep dread of being right. He wanted to be wrong, even when everything pointed to Wei Wuxian. I don’t think he wanted to believe that Wei Wuxian was capable of this, no matter how much he wanted to get revenge for what happened at Lotus Pier. I think there’s disappointment there too—how could he do such a thing? And I’ve giffed this scene with this quote: “He started to estrange her…And they became strangers who knew each other’s heart, so broken as they drifted apart” (Ana Claudia Antunes, Pierrot & Columbine). I think the realization here and a bit later for Lan Wangji that Wei Wuxian has become some other person is quite heartbreaking. He’s like a stranger to him, and that feeling of betrayal when you thought you knew a person inside and out—that hurts. It’s a deep-seated betrayal that Lan Wangji feels throughout this scene.

Oh, what I also like about this part is that when Wei Wuxian appears, neither one of them can look away. They are solely focused on him at this point.

He finally gets his revenge on Wen Zhuliu. And it’s great. They jump through the roof and he strings him up with Zidian. I can’t really say anything about it—Jiang Cheng needed to do this or he never would have been able to move on from Lotus Pier and his parents’ death.

WWX: Have I changed?

JC: No, not exactly.

I love that these lines are exchanged while the camera is on Lan Wangji. Lan Wangji already sees how Wei Wuxian has changed: the flute, the wicked energy, the almost senseless killing—none of these things are like the Wei Wuxian he’s come to love. And yes, I think love—and it hurts more because there is love. Lan Wangji wanted to walk the straight path with Wei Wuxian together, and he feels betrayed by what Wei Wuxian has done. Despite that, he still wants to help him. He implores Wei Wuxian to come back to Gusu with him so that they can help him and bring him back to the right path.

This whole scene feels like Lan Wangji isn’t even in the room, it’s like a private conversation between Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji just happens to overhear. He says nothing. He lets Jiang Cheng ask a hundred questions while Wei Wuxian calmly answers them. Wei Wuxian smiles and laughs, he seems himself, and yet he isn’t. There’s something wrong and Lan Wangji grows more and more perturbed by it as the seconds pass by.

The tension in this scene is palpable. It’s painful, it’s sad, it’s really hard for me to watch. And yet, this is one of my favorite scenes. Lan Wangji is feeling a lot, and he’s held it all in until this moment here. He calls him Wei Ying, and then Wei Wuxian in turn addresses him first as Second Master Lan, and then as Hanguang-Jun, both very formal names. It’s not Lan Zhan anymore—there is no familiarity on Wei Wuxian’s part. I think part of that is his attempt to protect Lan Wangji from any association with him that might actually harm Lan Wangji and his reputation. He’s setting a boundary—a wall—between them. And then when Lan Wangji bites back, Wei Wuxian changes tack: he stars being informal with him again, he brings up how they were good friends, classmates, etc. But that’s not going to work because Lan Wangji is feeling pretty upset right now.

Lan Wangji is desperate, scared, and worried for Wei Wuxian. Sometimes when we’re feeling all that, it can come across as anger, and that becomes worse when someone is dismissive of those feelings. Wei Wuxian is definitely dismissive here. In their interactions, Lan Wangji rarely shows this much emotion, and instead of paying attention to that, Wei Wuxian brushes it off. Jiang Cheng shows that he cares by hugging Wei Wuxian, but Lan Wangji is different—he’s thinking ahead, he’s seeing what Wei Wuxian has started to mess with—demonic cultivation—which can destroy a person’s mind, and he’s terrified. His only thought is to take Wei Wuxian away and try to change him for the better. Of course, just like what his father did to his mother, this cannot work. Even if Lan Wangji manages to force Wei Wuxian to come with him, he won’t be able to control him. All Lan Wangji can really do is try to persuade him.

The intensity of Lan Wangji’s gaze here is something else. This is a man who is desperate to save the person he loves. He is really looking out for Wei Wuxian’s best interests here and is getting no support from Jiang Cheng. I don’t really know what’s going on in Jiang Cheng’s head right now, but he’s definitely finding Lan Wangji’s behavior offensive. He doesn’t understand that Wei Wuxian’s actions will lead to his ultimate destruction, while it is very clear to Lan Wangji. But all I can do here is bring up how they viewed the person who was killing all the Wens earlier, before they even knew who it was. Lan Wangji felt very unnerved by it: he was disturbed by the talismans and disturbed by the various manners of death, while Jiang Cheng’s stance always was that it didn’t matter because the person was clearly on the same side—a dead Wen is a dead Wen no matter who is behind it. And his opinion doesn’t change even after he finds out. It’s not important to him how Wei Wuxian was able to kill all those people. He asks the questions, but he isn’t interested in really hearing the answer. On the contrary, I think Lan Wangji is very interested in those answers, but he wants to hear about it in a controlled environment. He doesn’t want Wei Wuxian to go back to Yunmeng, where he will essentially live with free-rein without boundaries.

As for cinematography, I love how Wei Wuxian holds up his flute here, setting up a literal boundary between him and Lan Wangji. Not only do you have Jiang Cheng creating that wall with his sword, you also have Wei Wuxian. What I mean is, it’s not only Jiang Cheng who wants to keep Lan Wangji out. Wei Wuxian is drawing a line here too: he wants Lan Wangji to stay out of his business. And this morphs into, what happens at this place is not Gusu Lans’ business—it only concerns Yunmeng Jiang Sect.

We all know Wei Wuxian is an arrogant person, but his arrogance and ignorance here is truly stunning. Lan Wangji tells him point-blank that he won’t be able to control this energy if he uses demonic cultivation, and Wei Wuxian does everything but laugh at him. I enjoy this and I hate it at the same time, because Lan Wangji is just fucking worried, you know? And maybe he doesn’t express himself well, but he’s shocked to see Wei Wuxian here, shocked that he’s responsible for all this—he can’t stay calm and collected under these conditions.

In just a few minutes, Wei Wuxian says that he and Lan Wangji are good friends and that Lan Wangji should treat him better, as well as “Who do you think you are? What I do is none of your business.” I’m paraphrasing, but that’s the gist. This scene here, with their faces so close to each other, kills me. This is absolute betrayal for Lan Wangji. It’s as if everything they had built together—all the respect, the affection, the comradery—is gone. The Wei Wuxian that he knew is gone.

I love the way this shot is framed, with Wei Wuxian staring after Lan Wangji, and then Wen Chao pleading, “Forgive me, forgive me.” So apt, because I think Wei Wuxian does feel bad here, I think he feels guilty. I think part of him really missed Lan Wangji and wanted to see him. I think he even knows that what Lan Wangji is doing is out of concern for him over anything else. But I also think Wei Wuxian’s pride gets in the way of that, and his desire for revenge, and even his desire for things to go back to normal. More than anything, Wei Wuxian wants to return to Yunmeng, to his shijie, to be able to live normally again, whatever that really means, because of course everything has changed. Nothing will ever be as it was again. More importantly, he has changed, and can never go back to the person he was before, the person who played so hard, the person who shirked his responsibilities and fooled around in classes, the person who shamelessly teased and flirted with Lan Wangji. That Wei Wuxian is gone. I think Wei Wuxian knows he’s hurt Lan Wangji and does feel bad about it, but he knows he has to push him away to protect him. He doesn’t want to drag Lan Wangji down with him, he feels it’s better this way. And I think, even though CQL!Wei Wuxian does have feelings for Lan Wangji quite a bit earlier than in the book, you can see the one-sided love here, in Lan Wangji’s aggressive behavior as he attempts to save this person he loves. Lan Wangji isn’t willing to give up on him, whereas Wei Wuxian is more prepared to let him go—to push him away to protect him. That’s love too, I suppose, but it’s a love that is meant to be from afar—a sad love, not a passionate one, not a desperate one, not the one that Lan Wangji feels for him.

This is so heartbreaking for Lan Wangji, in part, because they had such a special relationship before. Prior to this, Wei Wuxian prided himself in that he and Lan Wangji went on night hunts together—the clan didn’t matter, whether that was unorthodox or not. And now to see him use his clan as a barrier between them…it’s quite a betrayal. Lan Wangji feels so hurt, so at a loss—he wonders what could he have done differently to prevent this, he blames himself.

This is one of my favorite episodes because of this reunion scene. What you expect is some great reunion, the hugging between Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian, maybe a smile from Lan Wangji because he’s really happy to see him. But instead, you get pain. You get a Jiang Cheng hugging Wei Wuxian, but Wei Wuxian not even returning the hug (he only raises his arm to signal that he wants to break apart). You get a heated confrontation between Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian, one that is “fondly” thought of as their break-up scene. I love the drama, I love the pain, I love the angst, I love the dichotomy between Yunmeng Jiang and Gusu Lan, I love that this is the start of more tension between Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji, I love everything about it. The “us and them” dynamic that starts here is so great, and then to see it slowly unravel throughout the next ten episodes, to see Wei Wuxian’s and Jiang Cheng’s relationship fall apart, while Wei Wuxian’s and Lan Wangji’s relationship begins to strengthen again--I eat it up. It’s like my candy. Anyway, I’m excited for what’s to come, excited to talk more wangxian and how it compares to the book (from my dwindling knowledge, that is)! Happy that you all are coming along this ride with me!

Other episodes: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

#cql #the untamed #wangxian #lan wangji #wei wuxian #jiang cheng #mdzs #mo dao zu shi #wwx #lwj #wang lingjiao #wen chao #wen zhuliu #cql rewatch #ep 20

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jiangwanyinscatmom · 3 years

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[1/?] Sorry for venting. I just saw some bad takes that gave me a lot of feelings. Personally, JC stresses me out every time he comes on screen, but I don't mind it when JC fans say fan-typical things like how they like JC because he wears purple, or is grumpy, or they think he's hot, or that they ship x*ch*ng because the cql actors have nice jawlines. They're harmless, fun takes, and while I don't agree with some of them, I see where they're coming from

Hello there anon, vent away as that is what my blog is open for as I love/hate on Jiang Cheng as he is in the plot, as well as all of my beef with what has been done to him for the EN side of the fanbase! I am more than fine listening and engaging with the unsavory "unpopular" discussions of his canon behavior and this goes for anyone of course that needs an open play area. I'll try to engage with what you have sent point by point as succinctly as I can.

[2/?] (some of these are obviously crack, and I am a fan of a few problematic faves). But then there are stans that just have to put other characters down to make JC look good. Like, I think some fans take their freedom of interpretation for granted because most of these takes aren't even labeled 'headcanon,' 'ooc,' or 'crack' anymore. Stans feel that their interpretations are valid, and while they are, valid =/= canon, and they're treating these takes as canon, which becomes popular fanon.

I enjoy Jiang Cheng for what he is, however as I had said it took me another reread to get to my stance of him being the negative mirror to Lan Wangji's positive and my comfort with that for the story once I realized what purpose he served. He is only insofar tragic in regards to his circumstances, but it does not absolve him for what he is at his core (no pun, but I can make a very nice metaphor that even with a piece of Wei Wuxian in him he is still forever unable and unwilling to stand by him equally all while stagnating where as Lan Wangji is able to flourish, grow and mature with nothing of import left from Wei Wuxian in a technical sense). As for ships, I am a little dirty Xicheng whore for fun and can say there is a sense of entertainment for me making it work with two people where one is wildly ignorant and the other wildly rabid. But that is outside of what is established as canon in the work and I always try to keep the two strictly separate due to the skew fanon perpetuates.

3/?] And now, it's not clear what part of the fanon references canon JC or the canon events of mdzs. JC is an asshole; I don't like him as a person, but I do think that he's a complex character motivated by many issues (sup, YeeZY), which makes him fascinating to explore. Unfortunately, erasing his culpability also removes his agency. JC should be allowed to be an asshole character who makes his own decisions even if they're the wrong ones. He has made his own tragedy by constantly casting Wei Wuxian as the villain of his life.

Now thanks to you I will be using YeeZY to forever and now to acknowledge Madam Yu (this is your fault for the new tag). From a standing from storytelling I agree that he is complex in the Jianghu for MDZS. Where in the usual political intrigue of Wuxia, he would be the mustache twirling villain that is outright unforgivable in narration, it is by favor of Wei Wuxian's narration that has an early steeping of empathy for him. And he is not meant to be seen as ultimately sympathetic, the work builds up his hate against Wei Wuxian who tries to rationalize it all several times until he is finally unable to. Jiang Cheng is the antithesis to Lan Wangji and the false bait to get attached to in Wei Wuxian's first life. I will make the note their meeting in Yiling is lukewarm between both as they exchange nothing really in terms of conversation and all pleasantries are left in terms of Jiang Yanli for Wei Wuxian. By this point Wei Wuxian has already switched his yearnings of platonically wanting a part of Jiang Cheng's life, to subconscious romantic inclinations about Lan Wangji and the perceived loss of being in the other's life.

The very point of Jiang Cheng as the deconstruction, is that he has no passion in life despite his apparent exploits because he put a shadow to hang over himself as an excuse to say others think he is not good enough. He has no deeper motivations than pure selfishness by the end of the work and is pure frivolity that he has built up losing the meaning of his sect as a tradition. He had his agency (more than anyone I might add in the work due to his social position) that he used to build his reputation as a passive rich sect leader that has little to do with civilian problems.

4/?] And I think a JC, somehow, that realizes that he did something wrong and is working hard to change for the better and gain self-actualization to become that UWU best jiujiu the stans want him to be, who is ready to talk (not yell at) with WWX, apologize to him, and create a better, healthier relationship with him is a much more powerful reconciliation and happy ending than 'everyone is wrong and mean and they all apologize to JC, which magically gets rid of all his issues'.

He is forced out of culpability in reconciliation because simply put, his audience do not like the reality that relationships fray and dissolve with no further resolution other than we as adults both need to move on for safety and good health. It is not acceptable in real life and fiction is allowed to place that also in it's thematic relationships. He has a small, small spark of recognition at the end of the main story, however he himself seems to choose to ignore it, as change is hard and he has never taken to that well as was foreshadowed with his dogs and the idea of sharing a space with Wei Wuxian. To write this is an awful lot of work into his psyche which is not a nice place, he is a terrible being and downplaying that to make a sugar sweet person does not work instantaneously. He is the one responsible for the entire fallout with Wei Wuxian and he hysterically realizes that even as he tries to continue to blame Wei Wuxian.

The issue that I have with his current stan culture, is that they already view him as something he is not. They play at bicycle with all of the other protagonists that have positive traits that they strip as they see fit; Good affirming loving to children adult Lan Wangji, Self-sacrificing ultimately did it all for love and care Wei Wuxian, Hard exterior but softened to who they consider an annoyance Wen Qing, Loyal as partners in their exploits on the field and always have each others back Wen Ning. They even take Jin Guangyao's persona of playing damsel and using that as a positive to soften up Jiang Cheng into something he has never been for anyone for ships.

[5/5] Also, making WWX/WN/LWJ apologize just makes them look better than JC. Like, stans supposedly love JC, so they ahouldn't be lazy and work hard to give him actual character development. Again, I'm sorry for spamming your ask. It just really baffles me about where they get these 'hot' takes (All I'm going to say is that JC was ungrateful, and WN had a reason verbally dismantle him).

They see this, but, they will spin it in any way to excuse Jiang Cheng due to the story itself showing that he was in the wrong to everyone he flung accusations at and his hate. No one but him is at fault for his spite as he had gotten his revenge on the ones that had ruined Lotus Pier and killed his parents. His own resentment pitted him against good and well meaning people that he refused to help as he mimicked his mother's words about raising their heads higher out of goodness instead of keeping low and staying self-centered. There is the underlying criticism of taking individual arrogance as self-care at the cost of others. Each point that Wen Ning makes is exactly what Jiang Cheng himself knows as he hated Wei Wuxian for being something he could not be or even wanted to be. Jiang Cheng wants kindness but does not understand that kindness to others needs to be selfless and accept the hurt that can come with that in life. He encompasses the fall from the path of buddhist lifestyle, "The Three Poisons" to Wangxian's "Without Envy" at the stories end.

[6/5] P.S. I'm not saying I want reconciliation fics, but I just feel that if stans want JC to have a happy ending, then I think that he should actively work for it. I think it would be interesting to see what force of nature would push him through a character development because throwing a therapist at him would result in a murder.

"I'm not saying I want reconciliation fics, but I just feel that if stans want JC to have a happy ending, then I think that he should actively work for it."

They do not think he has to work for it, they say his tragedy is enough, while heaping accusations against Wei Wuxian and saying his own are not enough to absolve him. Something Wei Wuxian has never denied and told all present they are allowed to forever hate him for what he had done in the past, but that they need to find a way to live in a life that is always moving on. He learned that grudges do nothing once they are absolved and it leaves you with hate with nothing else to do with it once that object is gone. In terms of reconciliation, I do not ever think that either want anything other than a distant peaceful out of each other's life set up. Jiang Cheng does not need Wei Wuxian in his life to be satisfied and never has since he used him as the handicap to hide behind to stay angry and miserable. Being without that fallback opens the world far more for him to change than him ever interacting like an old friend with Wei Wuxian ever again, if he ever had the guts to do that.

#mdzs #mo dao zu shi #jiang cheng #yeah I am using that tag block me if it upsets you #pokes this sorry for the length I tried #listen... only i am his trash queen

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hishoukoku · 3 years

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I'm anon from this ask, hope your doing fine.THANK YOU SO MUCH for the comprehensive answer and for the WWX pointers!! and sorry for the embarrasingly late notice on this.

I notice you're very partial to novel WWX and that's cool ! He does sound more mature and willin to admit his mistakes which good for him, but given by what you said I sorta prefer and i beg you not to hate me, cql's wwx, especially due to him being more mellow.

I do believe you disagree though??

It's crazy they changed so much though overall , especially the Yi Iron plot. I didn't know what that was for, or that it wasn't in the novel even so woo!

Hi again anon ^^ Mention not!!

I was kinda worried that that answer got too long, (as I tend to ramble in asks) so thanks for this ! So, I didn't originally intend for that post to be a sort of WWX meta post, but I guess I did ramble on for a bit there.

I absolutely fell in love with cql too at first, but as I read the original novel i learned how much much more I can learn about him and this entire story.

Yes, I do strongly prefer and adore novel!WWX.

It's not that CQL did 'bad' overall, they did well in their version/adaptation of MDZS, but that doesn't mean there aren't major divergences from the novel, which was what my reply was about. I'd also like to preface that I'm not saying people shouldn't like CQL!WWX but they shouldn't equate him to novel!WWX or ignore the alterations done to his character (to fit the live action environment restrictions). Because doing so, would be a disservice to the way MXTX masterfully crafted this character.

So, not to reiterate but the best way to describe CQL!WWX is a victim of circumstance and misunderstanding. His actions there never justify the overwhelming hatred he gets. It's not 'cause and effect', it's wrong place, wrong time, always making sure his morals never fully waver..

The main issue is exactly the Yi Iron plot -as analyzed solely from his perspective- which was created to make sure we understand there's no way he would EVER be so morally gray as to invent the "big bad" demonic cultivation (book title xD?) It's a mockery towards the foundation of how novel!wwx came to be and to why he sacrificed himself for. The "crafty tricks" he apologetically uses in CQL don't even scratch the surface of the magnitude of his craftiness in the novel.

Novel!WWX did magnificently well to turn an outrageously desperate and tragic situation into a solution. (surviving Burial Mounds + inventing demonic cultivation).

He's extremely calculated, highly intelligent, he's devious, he's crafty, he's inventive and he deserves all the credit in the world for that. He wasn't handed a solution, he invented one with his own sweat and blood.

Yes, he's confident and arrogant, but with a very solid, valid reason and towards those who deserve to be on the receiving end of it (which are many!)

Yes, he killed thousands of people and the 'damage' he's done doesn't outweigh the damage he's taken.

And then if CQL decided to keep these other's reactions to him similar to the novel while downplaying his actions, then of course it inevitably leads to a superficial, lackluster climax. Then of course, it makes you wonder, okay and? what was it all for? why did he have to go through this ordeal? They overused the mob mentality theme.

Because yes, in the novel he actually makes mistakes, he actually lost control and that needs to be explicitly shown, because he's only human (which is why I said it's incredibly realistic of him) and he assumes that, he suffers for that, he berates himself for that, he died thinking that's the solution for that.

He doesn't need villains™ to pin the blame on (Su She, JGY+ WN hearing another flute). He's entitled to breakdown over the consequences of his own actions and to have a saying in his own tragic ending (his death), instead of being pushed into doing it.

But he does all of that while also carrying the same selflessness, pride, absolute sense of justice and core values that were presented in CQL.

Novel!WWX is not a total opposite to CQL!WWX (as I've unfortunately seen people say). He's him and so so so much more and he's well-rounded, balanced and masterfully crafted the way he is.

#anon #ishidareplies #mdzs meta #wei wuxian #ig i went there in the end huh #thank you for being honest anon #i just hate when people downright disrespect him and blindly choose whatever they want to believe #I wish at least people would read up on him #my few words don't properly do him justice ik that #grandmaster of demonic cultivation

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chuplayswithfire · 3 years

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The Wen Remnants and the ethical dilemma, not of what should be done (protecting and saving them is the right thing to do), but WHO has the responsibility to do it, is one of the most fascinating questions in the entirety of MDZS (and I'm not really addressing CQL/The Untamed here, as they changed matters so the situation is similar but also different and because I haven't finished it yet). You have the instigators and aggressors of mass war, tragedy, and loss reduced to the most vulnerable members of their society, and these remnants are thus left to carry the weight of their people's crimes and evils.

Of the Wen Remnants, as far as we know from canon, only Wen Qing and Wen Ning participated in the actual Sunshot Campaign. Wen Qing headed the supervisory office in Yiling and acter as a doctor. Wen Ning was present at the slaughter and destruction of Lotus Pier, presumably as a doctor, and likely also in Yiling with his sister. Everyone else seems to be non-cultivator civilians, rounded up after the final battles were concluded. Wen Qing never killed anyone, we're told, and Wen Ning probably never killed anyone either.

But Wen Qing's position isn't without harm or without choice - as a doctor for the Wen, she was healing and putting back together the people who were killing. As head of the supervisory office in Yiling, she's in a position of relative power and influence. Publically speaking or acting against the Wen Sect would have consequences for her that can't be denied, but the decision to not use that relative power and influence is still a choice. Wen Ning isn't noted as having an official position, but he likely worked as a medical assistant or doctor himself with Wen Qing, so same deal of healing the people killing.

(This isn't to judge or condemn Wen Qing but to say that choosing to be complicit in atrocities to save yourself and your family is still a choice! It is, in fact, the opposite of the choice Wei Wuxian makes at Phoenix Mountain and the same choice that Jiang Cheng makes. I point this out because I often see people point out that Wen Qing was protecting Wen Ning as if that means she wasn't still very making a choice still. Her options were limited, but she still had a choice.)

So the Wen Remnants, aside from the two siblings, have personally done nothing wrong aside from live as probably farmers and probably civilians in Wen territory, on Wen land, as the war goes on. They aren't cultivators in a war of cultivators. They are innocent, but still connected to and at one point provided for by the legacy and recent acts of violence the Wen have committed against every other Sect.

Helping them is the right thing to do, but who are the people left to help them but the survivors and remnants of those who were and are recent victims of the Wen?

The Jiang were apparently slaughtered to three sole survivors: Jiang Cheng, Jiang Yanli, and Wei Wuxian. It's mentioned that even the bodies of the smallest shidi/martial brother were stacked into piles as Lotus Pier was ransacked. Those Jiangs existing now are the ones Jiang Cheng himself was able to recruit during the war. For three months Jiang Cheng had every reason in the world to believe he and Jiang Yanli were the only survivors at all (it's possible there are some Jiang disciples who were away like JYL and thus survived but I can't remember if the novel specifies!)

The Lan weren't slaughtered, but their home was burnt to the ground, their library of traditions and learnings destroyed, their Sect Leader killed, their acting Sect Leader severely wounded. They aren't in as dire straits as the Jiang but they're in terrible shape themselves. It is confirmed by Jin Guangyao that the Lan relied on assistance from the Jin to restore and rebuild Cloud Recesses.

The Nie have apparently been in skirmishes with the Wen for the longest, with their previous Sect Leader killed in gruesome fashion for petty reasons by Wen Ruohan. Nie Mingjue became a Sect Leader likely when he was as young, if not younger, than Jiang Cheng was when he became Sect Leader, and it's implied the Nie were among the heavy lifters of the Campaign, who likely had among the worst casualties.

And then the Jin stayed out of it (mostly, Jin Zixuan led a small contingent) until nearer to the end of the war, and canonically came away with the least losses of funds, people, and damages. They're also the ones now capitalizing on the loss to further demonize the Wen for their own ends.

I just think it's fascinating. Like I said, the right thing to do is help the Wen Remnants - but who is in a position to do that and not risk their people, who have just come out of a war against the Wen, who have lost family, lost homes, lost peace, lost safety, because of them?

I've sometimes seen it said that Jiang Cheng owed it to the Wen siblings to help them, in return for their aid. In the novel, Jiang Cheng neither asks for their help nor really knows about it. Shortly after he wakes up after Wei Wuxian and Wen Ning rescue him from torture he's knocked unconscious by Wen Qing for causing a disturbance, and kept that way until he and Wei Wuxian escape and the decision for the Golden Core surgery is made - a surgery he isn't told about and doesn't consent to, by the way, meaning a surgery he definitely doesn't owe anyone for - the only thing he knows is that Wen Ning helped him escape and provided he and his siblings with something of their parents to bury.

But Wen Ning is in a position to help because he came with the invading force. Wen Qing is in a position to help because her brother forces her hand, as someone in a position of authority within the invading force. Jiang Cheng is in need of assistance because the Wen murdered his people, destroyed his home, and tortured him. His parents bodies need recovering because the Wen killed them in an unjustified invasion to slaughter their people.

If anything, helping Jiang Cheng is what Wen Ning and Wen Qing, as members of the invading and aggressive force, owed him. It's reparations, in a sense, for the acts of their people that they were complicit in.

Even if Jiang Cheng did owe them, is his choice to protect his struggling, fragile Sect, still rebuilding from recent massacre and destruction, any different from Wen Qing's decision to protect her brother and only intervene when the decision is forced on her?

So then there's the Lan - but the Lan are struggling to rebuild themselves after the violence the Wen enacted. They've suffered many losses, culturally in the loss of so much of their history and accumulated knowledge, physically in the sense of their home, and in terms of casualties over the course of the Campaign. Should they then be asked to risk what remains of them to protect the Wen Remnants, whose family and sect is the reason they are in the position they're in?

And then the Nie Sect, who suffered the least in terms of slaughter and destruction but who were nonetheless wounded by the Wen before and during the Campaign, and who are still recovering. They have no positive connection to the Wen Remnants and plenty of trauma associated with them.

Protecting the Wen is the right thing to do. But personally, I think its complicated and not at all a simple thing that no one but Wei Wuxian stepped out to do it. There's a reason its Wei Wuxian, who has no one to rely on him, who does it, and even still he suffers it. Would it be right for Jiang Cheng, Lan Xichen, or Nie Mingjue to prioritize helping the Wen Remnants over protecting and preserving their own people, who are in danger only because of the actions of the Wen Sect?

MDZS has a society where glory, power, privilege, influence, and other benefits are imbued because of family, even without own individual merit. But that means the negatives come to - guilt, blame, recrimination all are incurred because of family. The Wen Remnants didn't do anything wrong, the Wen Siblings didn't kill anyone - but the only people around are those hurt directly by their family and their Sect, and it takes a great deal of will and a minimum of responsibility to risk incurring the wrath of society to protect people like that.

#mdzs #wen remnants #wei wuxian #wen qing #wen ning #jiang cheng #jiang sect #nie sect #lan sect #jin sect #mdzs meta #ethics

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rainbowsky · 3 years

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All this conversation about ggdd's supertopic still remaining open made me want to share my crack theory on it, that was born from a silly dream a couple weeks ago lol. My theory: ggdd have already been cast for the main leads of tgcf. This was always the plan following the successful release and popularity of cql. In fact, the cql team continued to capitalize on cql's success by making 2 spin-offs. And weren't there once rumors that there was going to be a third spin-off as well? Maybe that rumor was actually pointing to the creation of the tgcf series? This explains why their supertopic has remained open--even as ggdd promote shows with other actors--because their cp will be needed when tgcf promotions begin. What I love about this crack theory: we will be seeing ggdd acting together again, yay! What is bummy about this crack theory: the supertopic remaining open is a pr move rather than ggdd's silent approval of their cp. Unrelated sidenote of my own opinion on ggdd: whether or not the supertopic gets shut down ever, I still believe ggdd are szd (there are just too many coincidences/moments that point to them being real). But this theory has been an interesting thought exercise regardless on some of the more...interesting pr moves ggdd's respective teams have made in handling their cp.

Anon, you’ve blown me away. We finally have the real reason why. 🤡

I love this theory even though I find the chance of it being true roughly on par with the likelihood of the tattoo rumor or the toilet paper rumor being true (which is to say, not at all). Despite how unlikely it is to be true, this theory is very creative and will give the TGCF people something more to chew on.

The TGCF speculation has been entertaining, if a little heartbreaking. Let’s dig a bit into that (fake, fan fiction, CPN).

There are some incredibly good reasons to believe GGDD would never be cast in another BL, let alone TGCF:

There has been enough speculation about them already without throwing another BL into the mix. Geez - doing another BL would practically be like coming out of the closet.

They are both enormously popular and very busy. The likelihood of their schedules aligning in such a way as to enable them to work on anything together, let alone a BL story, seems very low.

Their popularity means they can both command massive dollars. Would any production even have the budget for both of them without completely breaking the bank? It would have to be an extremely well-financed production.

It could be a career suicide move. It might typecast them and make them an undesirable choice for other roles. It would likely turn off some brands and producers and even fans.

Their management teams would almost certainly not allow it. They might tolerate the CP because of the cover it provides the relationship if it exists, but throwing gasoline on those CP flames would likely be a bridge too far.

They are being used to promote the Olympics, and have both appeared in regime-backed shows (GG’s military drama, DD’s cop drama), so the powers that be are probably not going to want them appearing in anything that isn’t in line with ‘certain values’ until at least after the Olympics.

The fact that these two have the most popular CP and have already done a BL relatively recently might make it incredibly difficult to get past any censorship board with them cast in the lead roles.

If they were ever able to work together again, they would probably both vastly prefer to do something completely different than what they’ve already done.

Any TGCF-related marketing that uses GG or DD is likely being done to appeal to their BL/CP audience, rather than to hint at future casting.

Lightning rarely strikes twice.

But who am I to wash any candy this sweet? Let’s look at the other side of the story. I mean, there ARE legitimate reasons to believe it could happen.

Anyone casting them together in another romantic costume drama would be giving themselves a license to print money. They are incredibly popular both separately and together, and a lot of that popularity is based off of their insane chemistry. Such an event would generate incredible buzz and anticipation and any resulting show would immediately be hugely popular.

Taking a popular pre-existing CP and using it to promote an entirely new show, it would be a pretty shrewd marketing move.

If GG and DD are relying on the CP as cover for their relationship, working together in another drama would be a great way to renew the CP and thereby renew the cover.

I’m sure they’d jump at the chance to work together again, especially considering how much time that would give them to be together for filming and promo. It would lead to other opportunities to go together on variety shows, etc.

The team doing TGCF have worked with GG and DD and know already how magical that combination was. They already know what to expect from them, and given how much they’ve both grown as actors the team would probably have even higher hopes this time around.

They obviously tolerate the CP and all the speculation despite the fact that it’s growing rather than shrinking. They haven’t gone against it. This would at the very least imply they aren’t offended by the idea of being shipped together, which makes it at least possible that taking on another romantic pairing together wouldn’t be completely offensive to them.

If they are in a relationship this would probably the closest they could get to coming out without putting their lives and careers at extreme risk. It would be like a declaration of being together without actually declaring anything. Plausible deniability.

They’ve both been marketed in connection with TGCF. It could be buzz-building around casting.

The idea that they might have signed on for two series - as far-fetched as it sounds - might explain why the CP stays up despite the scandal, etc. There could be some contractual obligation there, or an interest in keeping it going for the sake of the future project.

Alas, Anon, I think it’s unlikely, but it’s also important for me to point out that I’ve often been spectacularly wrong about things, so if hoping for something like this brings you pleasure then by all means enjoy. If you and the other TGCF people are correct and they do get cast I’ll be among the first to cheer.

Oh, and Anon - it’s not even a question. BJYXSZD.

#ggdd forever #ggdd in the public eye #tgcf #🤡 🚙#ask

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veliseraptor · 3 years

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Top five cnovel characters?

oh my god, well. okay. let’s see how this goes here, though I feel like I can’t parse out my novel character feelings for MDZS from my drama character feelings from CQL so like. I guess I just won’t try? or I could rule those out entirely which would also make things easier because I could occupy this list probably solely with MDZS/CQL characters.

but when do I ever make things easy for myself!

these are also thus far solely MXTX because I have yet to finish a full non-MXTX novel alas, though I am in progress!!! on two.

1. Hua Cheng. I feel like I could say this for everyone on this list and just summarize my taste in many ways which is to say “he’s a mess and I love him.” I just...I think Hua Cheng is probably my favorite love interest of MXTX’s three novels? He’s just got a combination of so many of the things that draw me toward a character: he’s an emotional disaster, simultaneously extremely arrogant and proud and with dismal self-esteem, very powerful but generally speaking doesn’t bother to flex it, a snarky bitch who lives for drama. He is just...I really wish we got more of his POV, because I would love to know everything that goes on in his head. Particularly because of the glimpses we get of when his “I am in control of everything and sort of above all this bullshit” facade gets cracked.

Love more of that.

2. Xue Yang. Look I feel like I’ve probably spilled more digital ink about Xue Yang than there is on the page and I do not care. Xue Yang is perfect and he’s done nothing wrong. He deserves all of the candy and his bedtime is never.

More seriously...just. There’s so much packed into Xue Yang’s character that...like, he’s not immediately or prototypically #mine in some ways, actually? Jin Guangyao is more so, on paper. And yet this fellow...saw him, took him home with me. Again - he’s a mess! Jagged edges and teeth and hunger and rage and absolutely vicious. He’s not nice and he’s not good and it is so easy to see what made him that way - how he broke and why he healed into the shape he did.

And just! The whole could’ve-been that is his development in Yi City and his relationship with Xiao Xingchen, the ways it taps into the themes that gut me about choice and chance and change, and whether people can be better than their worst selves, and why they so often aren’t...I’m crying about it. Constantly.

3. Jiang Cheng. When you come into a fandom for the main character and then end up latching on to secondary characters hardest....should’ve seen this coming, though, considering ‘younger sibling with inferiority complex issues’ is a pretty consistent thing of mine, and, again, Jiang Cheng is a mess and I love him. He’s not nice, he’s often outright mean, he doesn’t deal well with anything emotionally and his life is sort of a cascade of neverending misery with which he copes remarkably poorly. I’m so here for it, and for everything about him, and everything about the way he relates to his family.

Jiang Cheng is a bitch and I love him so much.

4. Mu Qing. Again here comes a character hitting a whole bunch of my buttons simultaneously and very hard! He’s ambitious, proud, prickly, people tend to not like him and he tends to not like them right back. He’s intensely loyal and cares a lot about his people but doesn’t show it well or almost ever. He’s ruthlessly pragmatic in ways that often look morally questionable. He’s lonely and determined to act as though he is no such thing.

Why wouldn’t I love him?

5. Xie Lian. Look at me! I can have a protagonist on this list! just one! Xie Lian is such a fascinating character to me because he’s not, like, Lise-bait in the way that some of these other characters are but he’s so important to me. I think because of the ways in which he’s very...ugh, I hate the “gentleness from trauma” in some ways but it works for me with Xie Lian because it’s not that he’s nice because he was traumatized, it’s that he tries to be kind/compassionate because he knows how horrible he can be if he’s not careful, if he loses control of himself. He knows what his worst self can look like, and he knows what his worst self cost, and he’s so scared of it happening again.

And just the ways he is also...he’s this beautiful mixture of hilarious and really really sad. And I think part of what gets me about him is the way that...he plays this role where he’s almost a fool, but it’s this very thin cover over very deep wells of feeling and also strength.

I’m not even totally sure why Xie Lian hits me so hard, but I know that he does.

this also feels like I’m betraying so many characters, though! I can think of so many more who I’m like “oh but you should make this list too D:” and if I let myself I’d keep arguing about it for a long time. I’ll just settled for making a list of

honorable mentions: Jin Ling, Wei Wuxian, Shi Qingxuan, Jin Guangyao, He Xuan, Xiao Xingchen, Shen Jiu, Yin Yu, Lan Xichen, I am absolutely certain I’m forgetting others also

projected future additions already well on their way: Mo Ran

#i haven't read enough cnovels yet is really what you should be getting from this #dysfunctional gods and ghost kinks #the sad queer cultivators show #top five meme #ARE YOU READY FOR ME TO WRITE WAY TOO MUCH FOR ALL OF THESE #spockandawe #conversating

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esmeraldablazingsky · 4 years

Text

I’ve finally hit my limit on the number of bad takes on the Lan parents I can see before I have to lay out all the reasons I disagree, so hello, I’m Blazie, and in this essay I will justify my visceral dislike of the assumption that Qingheng-jun married/imprisoned/had sex with Lan-furen against her will.

Warning for mentions of rape (in context of Interpretations I Really Hate) and a very, VERY long post below the cut.

Before I start going off about the finer points of all this, I want to make sure people are on the same page regarding what we actually know about what went down with Qingheng-jun and Lan-furen. What I say is based off the EXR translation of MDZS, for the sake of clarity, and although I don’t think the exact wording should be too important, feel free to let me know if you think I’ve missed an important bit of nuance or something (the whole story is in Chapter 64.)

The story we get is told by Lan Xichen, and it goes like this: a young Qingheng-jun falls in love at first sight with Lan-furen, who doesn’t return his feelings, and at some point kills one of Qingheng-jun’s teachers over unspecified “grievances.” Although he’s understandably very upset over the murder, Qingheng-jun sneaks Lan-furen back to Cloud Recesses and officially marries her in order to announce to his clan that anyone who wants to hurt her has to go through him.

After that, he locks Lan-furen in one house and himself in another as a form of repentance. Wei Wuxian speculates that this was because “he could neither forgive the one who killed his teacher nor watch the death of the woman who he loved. He could only marry her to protect her life and force himself not to see her.”

A central detail of this story that I think people don’t give the import it deserves is that aside from marrying and protecting her, Qingheng-jun’s other option was to let Lan-furen be executed by his clan. His purpose in marrying her wasn’t just for kicks/out of a possessive sort of love, it was so she wouldn’t straight up die. How she felt about this arrangement isn’t stated, but I’ll get into that in a bit. In addition to that, Qingheng-jun and Lan-furen live separately, which was apparently purposeful on Qingheng-jun’s part, and runs counter to the interpretation that he intended to take sexual advantage of Lan-furen.

Though there aren’t many concrete details in Lan Xichen’s retelling, he does specifically inform Wei Wuxian that his mother never complained about remaining in her house. What exactly this signifies is unclear— whether she was simply putting on a brave face for her sons, or whether she was in fact at all content with the situation— but it at the very least serves to further muddy the waters on how she and Qingheng-jun felt about all this.

Beyond what Lan Xichen and Wei Wuxian are saying out loud, there’s also quite a bit of subtext in this scene, especially in light of later events and revelations, like Lan Xichen’s confession for Lan Wangji at Guanyin Temple.

So what is Lan Xichen trying to convey with all this? There’s a lot of memes about this scene, most of which err too far on the side of Himbo Airhead Lan Xichen for my liking, but one that I do find amusing emphasizes how Lan Xichen draws parallels between Wangxian and the story of his parents (Lan Xichen: [flute solo] please use your one brain cell to connect the dots.) If Wei Wuxian hadn’t completely lost his memory of Lan Wangji defending him against his own clan elders, one would assume that Lan Xichen’s story would have had a much better chance of hitting home.

In hindsight and side by side, the parallels are much clearer— Qingheng-jun, “ignoring the objections from his clan… told everyone in the clan that she would be his wife for the rest of his life, that whoever wanted to harm her would have to pass through him first.” Similarly, according to Lan Xichen in Chapter 99, “for [Wei Wuxian,] not only did WangJi talk back to him, he even met with his sword the cultivators from the GusuLan Sect. He heavily injured all thirty-three of the seniors we asked to come.”

In that context, it makes a lot less sense to interpret Qingheng-jun as an aggressor towards Lan-furen, as in Lan Wangji’s case, the narrative clearly establishes that his actions are to secure Wei Wuxian’s safety. The action of Taking Someone Back To Cloud Recesses is— okay, actually, it’s a little more nuanced than I took into account when I started writing that sentence, so let me go a little deeper into Lan Wangji’s actions and how they relate to his father’s, story-wise.

My intent is not to dive into the terrifying underworld of novel-versus-drama discourse, but simply put, Novel!Lan Wangji as he is written isn’t exactly the poster child for clear consent. (I’m going to entirely leave off the extra chapters for the sake of everyone’s sanity, so I’m just talking about the main body of the novel here.)

He means well, and I’m sure we can agree that he does actually love and want the best for Wei Wuxian, but his lack of communication on this point means that he accidentally gives Wei Wuxian the impression that he wants to imprison and/or punish him in Cloud Recesses at least twice off the top of my head (pre-timeskip, as we know, and post-timeskip immediately after Dafan Mountain when he actually drags Wei Wuxian back to his room.)

That all likely has something to do with MXTX’s narrative kinks and regular kinks and all that, and can absolutely be taken with many grains of salt. However, these events establish how easy it is to misinterpret the action of Taking Someone Back To Gusu as an attempt to imprison rather than protect them (much to Lan Wangji’s chagrin.)

Failing to communicate his purpose to Wei Wuxian doesn’t mean that Lan Wangji actually had any intent of hurting or caging him— that was just a misinterpretation on Wei Wuxian’s part, and we, as the audience, find that out in due time— but as written in the novel, it can be really uncomfortable to read. Because of that, many people choose to accept CQL canon regarding Lan Wangji’s more possessive actions or mix characterization from different adaptations, which, to be clear, I completely understand and respect.

However, Qingheng-jun doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt as often, which I frankly find baffling, because nowhere in the text does it state that Lan-furen objected to being taken back to Cloud Recesses, while even Wei Wuxian clearly objected the first few times. In fact, while we’re on this note, I’ll take it a step farther— I find it baffling that people seem to default to an unsympathetic view of Qingheng-jun, because nowhere in the text does it state that he overruled Lan-furen’s wishes in any way. The text doesn’t clarify a lot of things, actually, and that is part of the point.

The narrators of MDZS are, in many situations, highly unreliable. This is, presumably, very purposeful! MDZS can easily be read as a sharp criticism of reputation and mass judgment and the concept of condemning people without knowing their motives! And I don’t want to sound mean, but guys… did any of us learn anything from that? Here, I’m going to put it in meme format for a second to convey what I mean.

MDZS: It’s easy to condemn someone as a villain if you don’t know their story or the reasons behind their actions

MDZS: Anyway, here’s a character whose story and reasons behind his actions you know nothing about

Some Parts Of This Fandom: Ah, a villain

Memes aside, here’s what I want to point out. It’s entirely possible to assume Qingheng-jun was a bad person who disregarded a woman’s wishes in marrying and confining her when all you have is Lan Xichen’s (actually very neutral, thank you Lan Xichen for being an eminently reasonable and concerned-with-evidence character) account of what happened. It would also be at least that easy to assume Wei Wuxian was just an evil necromancer if he hadn’t un-died and brought his own story to light, or even to believe that Lan Wangji had somehow tamed Wei Wuxian into submission and being a respectable cultivator if you were an average citizen of Fantasy Ancient China with nothing but rumors to operate on.

The thing about Qingheng-jun and Lan-furen’s story, then, is that there is nobody left alive who knows the full tale. Nobody knows what they thought about anything, really. Nobody even knows why Lan-furen killed Qingheng-jun’s teacher. Wei Wuxian asks why, and Lan Xichen can’t tell him, but I think the best answer would be something along the lines of I don’t know, Wei Wuxian, why did you kill people? Your guess on the motivations of your own thinly disguised narrative parallel are as good as anyone’s.

So, while it’s not technically impossible to assign darker motives to Qingheng-jun, the cautionary tale of MDZS seems to warn against that exact assumption.

I’ve refrained from getting too salty on a personal level thus far, but now that I’ve said a lot of the more logical and story-based points of my argument, I will say that at least some of my annoyance with the interpretation of Qingheng-jun as a possessive rapist and Lan-furen as his victim stems from the fact that I just think it’s straight up boring. Where’s the nuance? Aren’t you tired of reducing these characters to the flattest possible versions of themselves? Don’t you just want to add a little flavor?

In a slightly more serious phrasing of that criticism, I find that making Lan-furen a helpless prisoner strips her of whatever agency she might otherwise have. To be fair, she’s more or less a non-character in keeping with the general state of the MDZS universe, but making her a damsel in distress only consigns her more deeply to hapless, milquetoast innocence.

It’s perfectly valid to enjoy ladies who have done nothing wrong, ever, in their lives, but like… Qin Su is right there, if that’s your ball game. There’s also really no need to make Qingheng-jun someone who doesn’t respect women. Isn’t Jin Guangshan enough for at least one universe?

Anyway, ultimately, you do you. I don’t like arguing on the internet, and will just ignore things I don’t agree with (or write an 1800 word vaguepost) like a mature human being. I’m just saying, if it’s a cut and dry tale of imprisonment and assault you’re looking for… you probably don’t want to turn to a woman who committed a murder and a man who loved her enough to forfeit everything to keep her safe.

#mdzs #qingheng jun #madam lan #lan wangji #wei wuxian #(in a narrative parallels context)#blazie .txt #anyway without further ado here is my.... essay?#rape mention

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crossdressingdeath · 3 years

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I know you'll probably disagree with me, but i rlly hate the Cloud recessess ending. It's just....

Those elders killed wwx. The Lans were 100% ready to murder both at Qiongqi path but also at the siege. They see him as the guy who corrupted their precious jade. They all preach righteousness, but the whole madam Lan thing is iffy at best and i do not believe that everyone there fully believes the rules. Hell, i have a special bone to pick with the " do not gossip" rule, seeing as gossip had been the main info route for women in patriarchal societies.

I just don't think that after wwx killed Lans in the siege they'd be all that willing to forgive him and take him in w open arms. The juniors and kids love him, yes, but people who saw the war....

Not to mention the whole " do not speak to WWX " rule. I've seen ppl say it's a joke but it's On The Wall. It's supposed to be followed. Even if it was intended as a joke - which i don't believe - it's very cruel for someone w rejection and trust issues.

I also hate it from a very personal perspective. I see Wwx as ND, and, as an ND myself, all those rules terrify me. From the no running and the proper posture ones, i can pretty well imagine they forbid stimming. The Lan curfew would fuck anyone with insomnia and there's smth deeply ucked up abt the " do not grieve in excess". I get that they're supossed to be a paragon of the best things at all time, and that LJY is very UnLan like, but for someone w anxiety who CAN'T follow those rules, it would be a nightmare.

...Some points:

First, the Lan elders did not kill WWX, nor did they attack him unfairly. They weren’t looking at him as the man who corrupted LWJ, either, or at least that wasn’t their primary concern (I will never forgive CQL for suggesting they were or it was); they were looking at him as a traitor to the sects who was raising an army to destroy them. Remember, that is the information the Lans had. Every source they had except for LWJ (who the people he would have gone to would have known was biased and who presumably everyone knew had recently been in close contact with WWX where he could have been manipulated or enchanted in some way), sources which included multiple sect leaders (one of whom was WWX’s brother) and LXC’s dear friend, swore up and down that WWX was a major threat, and let’s face it, WWX didn’t do much to dissuade people from thinking that! Acting like the Lans were maliciously targeting WWX is doing them something of a disservice, I’d say. They acted based on the knowledge they had available; note how the Lans are the first to offer WWX their help once they’re given reason to believe he may not be a villain! And even aside from that, saying they killed WWX (and not JGS and JGY’s manipulation or JC’s army) feels a bit like scapegoating, honestly. Of the four sects, the Lans are quite possibly the least responsible for WWX’s death. If it would hurt him to live with or around anyone who held any responsibility for his death his only option would be to live as a hermit, which would be far worse for him. And yeah, the Lans aren’t perfectly righteous all the time and some morally dubious things have been done by Lan sect members; they’re human, after all! Some of them will only be as moral as their sect leader demands they be! That doesn’t mean the sect as a whole is bad, especially with LXC, LQR and LWJ in charge. Certainly I’d say they’re still better than the other sects, all things considered. One ambiguous situation that may or may not have involved some members of the previous generation doing some fucked up shit doesn’t mean WWX would for sure be mistreated!

As for gossip... there’s a difference between sharing information and gossiping. There’s no evidence that the Lan women are blocked from... y’know, freely communicating and sharing information between themselves. We have no reason to believe they are reliant on gossip. Also they presumably go out night hunting just like the men? Men and women are kept separate in the Cloud Recesses, but I get the sense that that’s more like... school stuff than anything else. The women aren’t exactly locked up, they can be cultivators! The society is still sexist, but that doesn’t mean they’re kept from going out and doing things. And I need to make this clear: there is a fair chance that the rule against gossip saved LWJ’s life, because it kept word of him defending WWX from the sects from spreading to people who would not be willing to let bygones be bygones. Gossip sucks! It hurts people! A lot of this story (and more to the point the suffering of the characters within the story) happens because of gossip! The Lans banning gossip is pretty clearly supposed to be a good thing, I’d say.

And yeah, maybe after WWX killed a bunch of their sect the Lans wouldn’t accept him with open arms as if nothing ever happened! And that’s fair! I can’t imagine where WWX could go where that wouldn’t be the case, unless he and LWJ chose to abandon the cultivation world forever. But you know what else the Lans won’t do? Try to execute him. Or from what we see in the extras even dwell on the past that much. No, the Lans aren’t going to immediately forgive WWX and bring him into the fold without a moment’s hesitation, but you know what? They accept his marriage to LWJ! They let him supervise the juniors on night hunts! They consider him part of their sect! Honestly, that is all WWX can really ask and far more than he’d get from any other sect. There are consequences for what WWX did, even though he wasn’t the villain or necessarily trying to hurt anyone, and frankly people not being entirely comfortable with his presence is very much reasonable.

The “do not speak to WWX” rule may not be a joke, but it’s also pretty clearly not a serious rule. No one takes it seriously. The juniors (the only people WWX really talks to anyway aside from LXC and LWJ) only pay it the minimum lip service of talking to him off the path. WWX himself sure as hell doesn’t care! He clearly finds it pretty damn funny. And I don’t think a guy who has never liked him once again proving he does not like him (in a way that is clearly temporary given how later LQR invites WWX to the Lan family banquet with... reasonable amounts of grace, thereby implicitly accepting him as LWJ’s husband and therefore his own family by marriage) counts as a rejection or a breach of WWX’s trust? Like, LQR has literally always hated WWX. He isn’t preventing WWX and LWJ from spending time together or shutting WWX out of the Cloud Recesses or even making a concentrated effort to keep people from talking to him; he’s venting his frustrations, but if he really intended to block WWX from taking part in life in the Cloud Recesses he would’ve done a hell of a lot more than just make a rule who no one WWX likes follows anyway. It’s a temper tantrum, that’s all, and clearly that’s what WWX takes it as. I mean, if nothing else you can’t ban people from talking to the sect heir’s spouse indefinitely. That’s just not sustainable.

As for the rules... banning people from running in the Cloud Recesses and demanding proper posture during lessons doesn’t suggest to me that they wouldn’t allow stimming? ‘No running’ at least is a common rule... most places. It’s distracting, and can be dangerous. And the rule about sitting properly doesn’t mean “Don’t move at all ever”; it means... well, “sit properly”. Don’t slouch or sprawl across the floor. I see no reason why that wouldn’t preclude means of stimming that wouldn’t be disruptive (and given this is in a classroom environment “not disruptive” is kind of important). I mean, those rules certainly don’t suggest that they’re any worse than other sects, and given this is the sect that has magic music for calming people’s minds if any sect would give allowances for neurodivergence it would be this one. Also I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a song to put people to sleep, or medication that can help; this is a world with magic, after all, and if there’s a song that can put spirits to rest there are probably songs for human medicine and care. And of course there’s an element of conflicting needs; maybe the rules would screw you over, but frankly firmly enforced rules keeping people from running around or sprawling out of their seats would’ve been a godsend for me in school, given how much trouble I had focusing with people making noise around me. At the end of the day, is it guaranteed that the Lans would make allowances for people with needs that conflict with the Lan rules? No. But I’d argue it’s more likely that they would than any other sect. This is ahistorical fantasy ancient China, too; you can only expect so much in the mental health department. Still, a sect that literally invented magic music for calming the mind actually seems like the best choice for people with anxiety and such. There’s a reason why there are multiple fics that essentially set the Lans up as mental health experts in the setting!

Basically, a lot of your arguments seem to be issues that WWX would have in any sect. Unless he wanted to give up on the support of a sect altogether, they’re all things that he would have to work through or come to terms with. And of course... the most important point is that WWX is happy in the Lan sect. The extras make that clear. He has a home, duties that he enjoys performing, the love of his family and the support of his sect. He’s happy. I just... I do not understand why people keep feeling the need to try to make it angsty when the novel makes it clear that he genuinely enjoys his life in Gusu, and more than that that if he ever decided he didn’t enjoy it he could leave at any time. You have to remember that: if WWX wanted to leave... he would. He and LWJ would just go, and only come back occasionally so that LWJ could visit his home. Hell, LWJ would insist on leaving for WWX’s sake. So like... the Lan sect wouldn’t suit everyone, but WWX is quite content there and doesn’t want to leave. He’s happy and free to come and go as he wishes; there really isn’t anything to be concerned about there.

#mdzs #wei wuxian #anon #asks

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coffintownkids · 3 years

Text

Alrighty! Ch. 32 is done and such brings an end to the 朝露 arc. I’m sure y’all remember the cute scene in The Untamed/CQL when WWX comes across a group of kids playing make-believe about the Sunshot Campaign. This is the chapter where that takes place. However, as previously mentioned, we’ve actually never met pretty much any of the characters involved first-hand. So this is again slowly filling the readers in about how the world perceives all these characters.

I couldn’t decide what part I liked best...So you get the entire scene! Very long post beneath the cut.

*EDITED* @weishenmewwx was nice enough to help me fix a couple of errors. Thank You!!!

The group of children stopped chasing it, then gathered together to start seriously wracking their brains over it, “What do we do since no one shot down the Sun? It fell by itself, so who’s the Leader now?”

One of them raised a hand, “It’s obviously me! I’m Jīn Guāngyáo and I killed the greatest villain from the House of Wēn!”

Wèi Wúxiàn sat on the inn’s front steps and watched on with great pleasure.

In games like this, there was boundless high regard for the Chief Cultivator Liǎnfang-Zūn. Of course, everyone would welcome playing that role the most. Although his background made people too embarrassed to speak of it, it was precisely because of it that him climbing to the highest position made people gasp even more in admiration of his achievements. During the Sunshot Campaign, he had acted as a spy for a number of years and had been a natural at it. He had run around in circles deceiving the entire Wēn Sect of Qíshān both inside and out, having them divulge countless secrets without even realizing it. After the Sunshot Campaign, he was fawned over in every possible way with terrific amounts of cleverness and an extreme variety of methods. Finally, he took the position of Chief Cultivator and became the person fully deserving of ranking first among the multitude of cultivation Houses. Such a life can be called legendary. If was playing, he would also want to try out for the part of Jīn Guāngyáo. Picking this little boy to be the Leader was just common sense!

So JGY is super well-liked by everyone, or so we’re led to believe at this point in the story. It’s mentioned in the novel very early on that he is JGS’s bastard, but it’s definitely pretty much glossed over and this certainly makes it sound like nobody cared about his “embarrassing” history. (We will come to learn this is, in fact, bullshit.) BUT, WWX does seem to think quite well of him.

Fun language bit about the “fawned over in every possible way with terrific amounts of cleverness and an extreme variety of methods.” The sentence uses 百般, 千般, 万般 to show the increase of how much praise got heaped upon him as 百=100, 千=1,000, and 万=10,000.

My other takeaway, which I think the show did a pretty bad job at conveying, was the passage of time and that JGY was actually with the Wēn Sect for years.

Moving on.

Another one of them protested, “I’m Niè Míngjué and I’ve won the most battles and have had the most captives surrender to me. I should be the Leader!”

‘Jīn Guāngyáo’ said, “But I’m the Chief Cultivator.”

‘Niè Míngjué’ raised his fist, “So what if you’re Chief Cultivator. You’re also my sān-dì, so you won’t see me running off with my tail between my legs.”

As expected, ‘Jīn Guāngyáo’ was rather well-suited at getting into character. He hunched his shoulders and ran away.

Sān-dì (三弟) just means third brother. AKA JGY was the youngest within 3zun.

Then another kid said, “You’re the one that died young.”

Since he had chosen to be a certain cultivation head, he naturally had been looking forward to being said cultivation head a little bit. ‘Niè Míngjué’ got mad, “Jīn Zixuān, you died earlier than I did. You had an even shorter life!”

‘Jīn Zixuān’ was unconvinced, “So what if I died younger? I was ranked Number Three!”

“Being ranked Number Three just means your looks were ranked Number Three!”

At that point, one of the little boys seemed tired of both running and standing, so he slowly walked over by the steps and sat down by Wèi Wúxiàn. He waved his hand like he was some sort of mediator and said, “Alright already, there’s no need to fight about it. I’m the Yílíng Lǎozǔ, so I’m the most awesome.”

Wèi Wúxiàn, “……”

He glanced down and, sure enough, the little kid was carrying a little branch at his waist that was probably meant to be Chénqíng.

There was actually a child pure enough to not bother arguing about good and evil. He was only debating the value of combat abilities and had willing taken up the honor of being the Yílíng Lǎozǔ.

Another kid said, “No way. I’m the Sāndú Shèngshǒu and I’m the most awesome.”

The ‘Yílíng Lǎozǔ’ rather understandingly said, “Jiāng Chéng! What can you do that’s better than me? When haven’t you lost to me? How is it a good idea for you to say you’re the most awesome? Aren’t you embarrassed?”

‘Jiāng Chéng’ said, “Hmph! How am I better than you? Do you remember how you died?”

Wèi Wúxiàn’s faint smile got wiped right off his face once his meaning sunk in.

It was like being jabbed with a highly poisonous needle without warning and it sent faint prickling pain throughout his entire body.

Oof. That is a lot.

The ‘Yílíng Lǎozǔ’ next to him clapped, “Look at me! On my left is Chénqíng, on my right is the Tiger Seal. Plus I have the Ghost General. There are none beneath Heaven that are my equal! Hahahaha…” He had a stick in his left hand, a stone in his right, and was laughing hysterically, “Wēn Níng, come out!” A kid in the back of the crowd raised his hand and weakly said, “I’m here…that’s…I want to say…during the Sunshot Campaign, I didn’t die, either...”

Wèi Wúxiàn felt that he couldn’t not interrupt.

He said, “Fellow cultivators, can I ask you a question?”

The children had never had an adult take part when they played this game before, let alone one that didn’t scold them and was completely serious about asking them a question. The ‘Yílíng Lǎozǔ’ was giving him a strange and guarded look as he said, “What do you want to ask?”

Wèi Wúxiàn said, “Why don’t you have any people from the Lán Sect of Gūsū?”

“We do!”

“Where are they?”

The ‘Yílíng Lǎozǔ’ pointed at a kid that hadn’t opened his mouth to say a single word from the start, “That’s him.”

Wèi Wúxiàn looked at him and, sure enough, he was completely fine-featured and looked like a charming child. He had a clean, white string wrapped around his forehead to serve as his head ribbon. He asked, “Who is he?”

The ‘Yílíng Lǎozǔ’ disdainfully curled his lip and said, “Lán Wàngjī!”

…Great. This group of children grasped his essence. If you’re playing the part of Lán Wàngjī you really ought to shut up and not talk!

Then suddenly, the corners of Wèi Wúxiàn’s mouth began to curl again.

That little poisoned needle got pulled out and he didn’t know what cranny it got tossed into, but all the stinging pain had instantly been swept away. Wèi Wúxiàn said to himself, “It’s both wonderful and strange. He’s such a stuffy person. Why does he always make me feel so happy?”

*yelling* Why does he make you so happy, WWX? Any guesses?

I’ve seen this translated as “boring” instead of “stuffy” so I’ll explain a bit. The word used is 闷 (mèn) which can be read as boring, so that’s not wrong. But, it’s a little more nuanced than that. It can also mean something “sealed tight” or “suffocate” or “shut indoors.” Like how a hot room without circulation can be called “stuffy.” But in English, we can use stuffy to mean someone that’s kinda old-fashioned and very stuck on being prim and proper. Which certainly is someone people might consider “boring”! I just didn’t think “boring” alone really captured it though.

Of course, this is when LWJ finally emerges from his Fortress of Solitude (after needing time to get through his Gay Panic.)

When Lán Wàngjī came downstairs, he saw Wèi Wúxiàn sitting on the steps and sharing a steamed bun with a group of children. Wèi Wúxiàn was eating his bun while directing two children that were back-to-back in front of him. “……There are currently countless Wēn cultivators before. They’re all armed and they’ve got you completely surrounded. Keep your eyes sharp. Yes, just like that. OK. Lán Wàngjī, pay attention. This isn’t the current you during peacetime. You’re covered in blood! Your killing intent is so heavy! Your expression is so fierce! Wèi Wúxiàn, get a bit closer to him. Aren’t you going to twirl your flute? Let’s see you twirl it one-handed. Have pizzazz. Do you know what pizzazz is? Come let me teach you.” ‘Wèi Wúxiàn’ made an “oh” sound and handed over the thin stick he was carrying. Wèi Wúxiàn rather skillfully and swiftly twirled ‘Chénqíng’ around between two of his fingers, causing the group of kids to whoop with excitement.

Lán Wàngjī, “……”

He quietly walked over and Wèi Wúxiàn saw him coming, so he brushed off the dust from his backside and called out his goodbyes to the kids. It had been so easy to just stand up and walk along the road with a smile. It was oddly like being drugged.

Lán Wàngjī, “……”

Wèi Wúxiàn, “Hahahahahaha, I’m sorry, Hánguāng-Jūn. I ended up sharing the breakfast I bought for you with them. I’ll buy more for us in a moment.”

Lán Wàngjī, “Okay.”

Wèi Wúxiàn, “How about it? Weren’t those two kids just now cute? Who do you suspect the kid with the string around his head was imitating? Hahahaha…”

He was speechless for a moment, then Lán Wàngjī ultimately couldn’t help saying, “……What exactly did I do last night?”

It definitely couldn’t have been anything simple. Otherwise, why did it make Wèi Wúxiàn keep laughing???

Wèi Wúxiàn kept waving his hand, “No, no, no, no, no. You didn’t do anything. I was just being silly, hahahahahaha…Alright, ahem, Hánguāng-Jūn, I swear I’ll talk business.”

Lán Wàngjī said, “Go ahead.”

Apparently WWX missed his calling and should have gotten into theater!

And poor LWJ is still panicking.

So now they’re off to Shǔdōng and we’ll be starting the Yi City arc next.

#mdzs #ctk reads mdzs #mdzs translation #my translation

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xiyao-feels · 3 years

Text

A Comparison of the Stairs Dialogue in CQL vs MDZS, Pt 1

(Pt 2)

A few introductory notes:

-This wasn't intended to be a big project post; I was just doing the comparison because I thought it was interesting. As I went I thought other people would probably find it interesting too, and it would be worth having it all written down, so I did turn it into a post after all. But I'm not really arguing any central point or anything; I'm really just comparing the dialogue and writing down my thoughts as I go.

-This also of course means my usual pro-JGY and consequently very annoyed at NMJ biases are on display. As ever, if this will upset you, please don't read!!

-This is a comparison of the text of the dialogue, not everything about their interaction; I don't necessarily note it if e.g. the acting doesn't match the dialogue tags in MDZS, or what have you.

-To do a proper comparison, you really need to compare the Chinese text, not the English translation; this is what I'm doing, though of course I've included the English from the Youtube subs, for CQL, and from the Exiled Rebels translation for MDZS. (For the Youtube subs I recorded "Yao" as A-Yao and used da-ge instead of Big brother when 大哥 was used and er-ge when 二哥 was used, just because this is my habit when copying down the dialogue.)

-Speaking of which: for MDZS, I just copied from the text, but for the CQL dialogue both English and Chinese I copied down the subs. I don't actually speak Chinese, but fortunately CQL on Youtube has the Chinese subs as well; my reading level in Chinese is also completely terrible, but I can often recognize most or many of the characters, and what I can't I can find by identifying radicals or drawing it in a handwriting recognition thing, etc. I did my best to be careful and thorough, and I also checked it against the Chinese subs I downloaded from Netflix, but there may still be some errors, fair warning. This also means that, unlike the Chinese from MDZS, the CQL Chinese dialogue isn't punctuated beyond spacing it out as it appeared on the screen; this is because the Chinese subs aren't punctuated, and I am certainly not going to make that judgement myself.

-The characters that differ in a given line between the MDZS and CQL versions are bolded, to help make the difference visually clear.

With that aside, the comparison is below the cut.

CQL

LXC: 阿瑶大哥他心性不比从前你千万不要再惹怒他了他最近深受刀灵侵扰之苦若不是你日日给他弹清心音的话恐怕他 A-Yao. Da-ge's temperament is getting worse. Don't ever displease him again. He's been subject to the harassment of his blade lately. If you hadn't been playing Cleansing Music for him everyday, I'm afraid he'd be…

MDZS

LXC: 只是一时气愤，口不择言罢了。大哥现在心性不比从前，你千万不要再惹怒他了。他最近深受刀灵侵扰之苦，怀桑又和他争吵置气，到今天还没和好。 His anger was simply too great for him to have thought before speaking. Brother’s temper cannot compare to how it was in the past. You must not provoke him again. These past few days, he has been deeply troubled by the saber spirit, and HuaiSang has argued with him again. They still have not made up yet, even today.

I'm comparing the CQL dialogue to the equivalent dialogue in MDZS, but of course in MDZS this exchange isn't before the stairs in ch 49; rather it's part of a broader conversation NMJ hears before he bursts in to try and kill JGY on the spot, because he doesn't like how JGY is talking to LXC about him, in ch 50. (Note, incidentally, how obviously impossible this renders the task of not displeasing da-ge, even aside from his not being satisfied with anything less than Xue Yang's head, as JGY and LXC were having a private conversation at the time.) The mention of NMJ and NHS' falling out is removed, replaced with the information that JGY has been playing to MMJ "every day"; the reference to NMJ calling JGY son of a whore is of course removed, since it hasn't happened yet. One effect of this relocation is on our understanding of LXC's injunction not to "displease him again/provoke him again" (再惹怒他 in both). In MDZS, this seems to refer to the stairs incident where JGY talked back (as the text notes, unusually); here perhaps it might be read as suggesting that JGY somehow has a habit of avoidably displeasing NMJ, which I think is absurd.

However, that's not the only possible interpretation. Although CQL doesn't quite give us the scene mentioned in chapter 30, where NMJ shows up and lectures JGS into announcing XY would be executed (…and heaps abuse on JGY when he tries to intervene, terrifying JGY sufficiently that he hides behind LXC—observe that in the sentence immediately prior to this we are also told that NMJ had unsheathed his sabre), in episode 35 we are told that all the clans wanted to punish XY except for JGS, and given a brief flashback to JGS yelling. Therefore, I think, it's not unreasonable to assume that something like the scene described in ch 30 occurred in CQL. Perhaps LXC is referring to this, although of course JGY would still be held between the fatal opposition of NMJ's and his father's wishes.

It's also relevant of course that in removing the surrounding context, CQL removes the context of the conversation of JGY expressing his pain about how NMJ treats him, and LXC replying, and rather turns it into an apparently unprompted expression of concern on LXC's part.

CQL

NMJ: 金光瑶 Jin Guangyao!

MDZS

It's worth noting, I think, that in MDZS NMJ never refers to JGY as "Jin Guangyao" throughout the entire stairs encounter.

CQL

LXC: 大哥怎么了 Da-ge, what's wrong?

MDZS

LXC: 大哥 Da-ge?

CQL

NMJ: 你别动你出来 (to LXC) Don't move. (to JGY) Come out.

MDZS

NMJ: 你别动你出来 (to LXC) Don't move. (To JGY) Come out.

CQL

JGY: 二哥劳烦你帮我再过一眼百花宴贵宾的名单我先去和大哥说点私事回头再请你讲解 Er-ge, please check the list of guests of the Floral Banquet for me. I need to talk some private affairs with da-ge. I'll explain it to you later.

MDZS

JGY: 二哥劳烦你再帮我理一理这条，我先去和大哥说点私事，回头再请你讲解 Brother, could you please help me go through this one? I have some private matters to discuss with our eldest brother. I’ll have to ask for your explanation at a later time.

Interestingly the exact same sentence in the Chinese, 回头再请你讲解, is translated in CQL as JGY's promise to explain later—where the implication seems to be he'll explain about what he's discussing with NMJ, perhaps?—and in MDZS as JGY's intention to ask /LXC/ to explain (the work he's going over in JGY's absence) later. In MDZS, of course, they're working on the watchtowers…while in CQL host with the most LXC is /helping JGY put his banquet guest lists together/, omg. I wish they'd kept more about the watchtowers but I admit I enjoy this as well. They plan parties together!

In both CQL and MDZS NMJ tries to hit JGY after they are outside and before further words are exchanged.

CQL

JGY: 大哥何必如此有话好说 Da-ge. Why act like this? We can talk nicely, can't we?

MDZS

JGY: 大哥，何必如此，有话好说。 Brother, why the rage? Let’s calm down.

CQL

NMJ: 薛洋呢 Where is Xue Yang?

MDZS

NMJ: 薛洋呢 Where's Xue Yang?

CQL

JGY: 他已被关入地牢终身不释 He's been shut up in the dungeon, for life time.

MDZS

JGY: 他已被关入地牢，终身不释…… He’s already been locked inside the dungeon, imprisoned for life…

CQL

NMJ: 我当年在不净世是怎么跟你说的我要他血债血偿你却给他来个终身不释 What did I tell you in the Yet Clean Realm at that time? I want him to pay his killing debts. You now give him life imprisonment.

MDZS

NMJ: 当初你在我面前是怎么说的 (JGY is silent) 我要他血债血偿，你却给他个终身不释？ What did you say to me back then? (JGY is silent) I wanted him to pay blood with blood, yet you have him imprisoned for life?

"What did you say to me back then" is interesting; we're not actually given a specific time or a specific thing said, which means we must speculate. An obvious candidate for 'back then' would be the ch 30 scene previously mentioned, when NMJ convinces the Jin to announce that they'll execute XY. Yet the Jin giving in on executing XY seems to come /after/ JGY is sufficiently frightened by NMJ that he hides behind LXC, "not daring to say anything else." NMJ is perhaps conflating JGY with JGY's father, or perhaps assigning to JGY an authority he does not in fact possess, as though JGY and not JGS was the person who made decisions for the Jin.

In CQL of course NMJ takes the position that /Jin Guangyao/ owes him obedience because Meng Yao used to be NMJ's servant—not even just that, but that Jin Guangyao must display obedience to orders NMJ gave several years ago, when JGY was MY. This is absurd and insulting, and even before NMJ actually calls him Meng Yao it demonstrates that NMJ does not actually recognize JGY's legitimacy /as/ Jin Guangyao. Honestly, I don't have the words.

CQL

JGY: 只要他受到惩罚无法再犯终身不释和血债血偿也并无 As long as he's punished, and can't recommit crimes, I can't see the difference between life imprisonment and death sentence.

MDZS

JGY: 只要他受到惩罚，无法再犯，终身不释与血债血偿也并无…… As long as he receives his punishment and can’t offend again, perhaps paying blood with blood and being imprisoned for life is…

CQL

NMJ: 我问你当年在不净世究竟是谁放走了薛洋是我的总领还是你 Tell me. When we were at Yet Clean Realm, who on earth released Xue Yang? It was my captain, or you?

MDZS

NMJ: 你举荐的好客卿，做出的好事情！事到如今你还敢袒护他！ The good things that the good guest cultivator whom you recommended has done! Things are already like this and you still dare defend him!

Imho, this gets to a central fault in the CQL XY storyline—why the heck is NMJ trying to have XY killed for the Chang killings, instead of for collaborating with the Wen and/or for killing a bunch of his men??????

I tend to put that aside because it doesn't… actually… make any sense at all, especially since CQL NMJ is quite clearly still preoccupied with XY's old crimes.

CQL

JGY: 我没有我为什么要放走他不过当初是当初现在常萍已经翻供没有任何明确证据证明薛洋屠杀了常氏五十人而我父亲又一定要留下这个人 It wasn't me. Why should I let him go? But the past is in the past, Chang Ping had withdrawn his confession. No certain evidence can prove that Xue Yang had massacred 50 people of Chang clan. And my father insists on keeping him alive.

MDZS

JGY: 我没有袒护他，栎阳常氏那件事我也很震惊，我怎会料到薛洋会杀了人全家五十多口人？可我父亲一定要留着这个人…… I didn’t defend him. I was also shocked by the case of the Changyang Yue Sect. How could I have known that Xue Yang would kill more than fifty people? But my father was set on keeping him…

So—I'm sorry, that in CQL Chang Ping has already withdrawn his testimony makes this completely absurd. In MDZS, that doesn't happen until /after/ NMJ's death, after the Jin have been hounding him! In CQL, the situation appears to be that they have officially condemned him to the dungeons for life /purely based on NMJ's pressure/, with no actual clear evidence at all—and note that unlike in MDZS, where the Chang killings happened like a month beforehand and XXC presents the evidence that it was XY to the assembled clans, in CQL the killings happened /several years ago before a war/ and Songxiao didn't present any evidence it was XY to anyone else at the time that we saw. I mean, they didn't need to because at the time he confessed when challenged,* but it's not at all clear to me what if any evidence is left! And—in this situation where the one surviving victim is publically saying it wasn't XY, and they're /still officially locking him up for life on NMJ's say-so/—NMJ thinks that JGY should nevertheless go and execute XY.

*To an audience that if I am not misremembering included JC, who was alive and a sect leader independent from NMJ and could presumably have been asked to testify at the trial. This doesn't seem to ever be mentioned, however. Again, the CQL XY subplot doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

I can only guess that they moved up the Chang Ping revokes his testimony timeline to emphasize Jin power? But to me it has almost the opposite effect, since if they're still locking XY up on NMJ's say-so it rather suggests /NMJ's/ power; and more to the point it makes NMJ's already frankly unreasonable demand completely and ludicrously absurd.

CQL

NMJ: 为什么他身上还有一块阴铁你不知道吗你把他重新招揽回来究竟是为了什么你自己心里清楚 Why? Don't you know he's got a shard of Yin Iron on him? You're trying to reclaim him now. I can clearly see what you have in mind.

MDZS

NMJ: 震惊？招揽他的是谁？举荐他的是谁？重用他的是谁？少拿你父亲当幌子，薛洋在干什么，你会不知道吗？！ Shocked? Who was the one that invited him? Who was the one that recommended him? Who was the one that regarded him highly? Don’t use your father as excuse. How could you not have known what Xue Yang was doing?!

English of course doesn't distinguish between plural and singular second-person, but I think it's worth noting that NMJ is using singular here, 你, and not plural. This is true in both CQL and MDZS. In MDZS, I think the problem is that, although he is in fact referring to things JGY individually did, he refuses to accept the truth of JGY's position: that whatever JGY knew or did not know, he can't actually afford to kill XY if that's not what JGS wants. In CQL, by contrast, the problem is that he's locating the desire to obtain the Yin Iron specifically in JGY, despite JGS'…well, JGS' entire everything.

CQL

JGY: 大哥真的是我父亲的命令我无法拒绝你现在要我处置薛洋我该怎么去跟他交代 Da-ge, this is really my father's order. I couldn't deny. If you want me to execute Xue Yang now, in which way can I report this to him?

MDZS

JGY: 大哥，真的是我父亲的命令。我没法拒绝。你现在要我处置薛洋，你让我怎么跟他交代 Brother, it really was my father’s orders. I couldn’t refuse. Now, if you want me to take care of Xue Yang, what would I say to him?

The use of 你 vs the more formal 您 throughout this exchange is interesting. In their exchange before JGY goes outside with NMJ, he uses 你 for LXC; here, he uses 你 for NMJ, but you can see throughout the exchange he seems to use both. It would probably be very interesting to go through the text and observe which JGY uses, to whom, and when.

CQL

MDZS

NMJ: 不必废话，提薛洋头来见。 There’s no need for explanations. Come back to me with Xue Yang’s head in your hand.

CQL

—

MDZS

JGY "wanted to speak"

I think the upshot of these exchanges is much the same in CQL and in MDZS, despite its shortening in CQL: NMJ utterly rejects the validity of JGY's desire to give NMJ a /reason/ for going against JGS' explicit wishes, the explicit wishes, I remind you, of a man he has a moral duty to obey as his clan head and father. Truly, we can only imagine how NMJ would react to JGY killing someone against the wishes of the leader of the clan he served because he deserves it in JGY's own moral judgement… Except of course we don't have to imagine it, because it occurs in both CQL and MDZS, albeit differently. It's not that NMJ recognizes as a general principle that subordinates should be allowed to kill people against their leader's wishes if that subordinate judges their victim deserves it; it's simply that he believes in the primacy of his own, obviously righteous judgement. (And in CQL, again, there isn't any actual definite evidence, and Chang Ping has retracted his testimony.)

I think the main things the slightly more extended MDZS version has, not present in CQL, is, first, the explicit visual of XY's head, and second, that NMJ's subsequent response isn't a response to JGY's actual speech; JGY was about to speak in reply, and NMJ responds in irritation to what he thinks JGY is going to say—responds, indeed, by calling him 'Meng Yao'.

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#long meta #anger burned in his heart #more than one tag could contain #we can't change places

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