#more time by winick

[jasontoddenthusiastt]

‘The point is not “is bftc good Jason characterization”’

Actually the point can be anything that the op of the post wants it to be. Oh you mean that is not your point. Um …. Cool. Nobody asked.

#*​provides canon proof of Jason absolutely traumatizing teens in canon* #/s #*the whopping two instances are titans tower and the Mia Dearden incident* #both of which happened around the same time as uth. effectively making Jason approximately … eighteen or nineteen. #while Mia was 17 and Tim was like 16. wow how could this seasoned old man be so cruel to these literal babies #this is coming from someone who cares deeply about how different authors’ visions for bruce can turn him into a male power fantasy #but according to this person that's technically all fanon because the authors are fans of Batman who write him how they want #<- a needlessly complicated way of saying it doesn’t matter that almost every writer has written Batman as a cop symbol #because they don’t agree with those authors’ visions it’s just bad characterization #not consistency #anyway back to how any Jason fan who doesn't ascribe to your flawless interpretation of these iffy events is actually missing the point #mhm okay ignored winick showing Jason desperately saving children like three times in lost days #and other authors later wrote him being good with kids too #oh but even if he had the same trait in post crisis and n52 these characterizations are actually irreconcilable because they said so #kelseethe #for someone who seemingly cares so much about numbers and patterns #they tend to skip a lot of important panels in their ‘analyses’ #like the panels in batman 650 where Jason mentioned the thousands joker killed and the friends he's crippled #and the lost days panels of him being upset about joker going on to hurt more families and fathers and sons #all this to claim Jason’s ultimatum in utrh was entirely self-centered #I guess it just goes to show how much evidence you have to ignore/disregard to come to the conclusion that Jason is a bad person #but yeah your vision is the be all & end all and anyone who thinks otherwise isn’t ~normal~

[roobylavender]

i missed that class what dont you like about starlins rendition of their relationship?

(and also like, DID you think he did something in particular well or was it all…meh

the crux of my issues in this regard stems from batman #416. in the post-crisis era you began to see this way more lopsided depiction of bruce and dick's relationship wherein the former was portrayed to be almost.. bitter that dick had moved on to establish his own life. and it stood in great, great contrast to the bruce of the pre-crisis era, who was certainly devastated at the realization that dick was growing up, but also very intent for him to find his own happiness and way in life. they would have their disagreements on occasion (e.g., bruce initially disapproving of dick dropping out of college, bruce immediately taking leadership of a situation where the titans were involved when dick was better equipped to handle it, etc.) but the outcome of those situations was never outright bad yknow. bruce was very much capable of recognizing where he might have overstepped and subsequently stepped back to let dick have his own space. and i think initially max allan collins expanded on that dynamic in the post-crisis era in interesting ways by juxtaposing bruce's desire to see dick flourish against his own constant fear for dick's life. so instead of mike w. barr's comedic and lighthearted backup stories in early 80s tec where bruce disguised himself to keep an eye on dick's shenanigans and assure himself everything was going alright, you got this more serious confrontation within bruce with regards to his position as a parent. i don't think a lot of people read it that deeply but i've always viewed batman #408 as one of the most sensible depictions of that dilemma. the general complaints tend to be that this issue robbed dick of his pre-crisis decision to retire robin on his own, and i'll concede that as a worthwhile concern. but i don't think it's esp damning what with the implication that bruce no longer wants to be the person indirectly making the decision for dick to continue to be in this line of work. their moment at dick's bedside is less about bruce robbing him of the decision and more about him saying, if i let you still be robin, that's a direct reflection on me, bc i'm the one who got you to do all of this originally. i'm the one who put you directly in harm's way. if you're going to do this from now on, you need to do it on your own terms. you need to decide for yourself that this is who you want to be, without your relationship with me even being a factor.

it's a moment contributive to that delicious dynamic between them wherein every decision bruce takes to service dick's agency is inevitably read the wrong way by the latter to imply that he's not valued or not worthy of being seen as bruce's equal (and before the hounds pounce on me this obv does not include the increasingly abusive depiction of their relationship as the 90s progressed). that is an unavoidable dilemma when you're simultaneously someone's ward/adopted son and also their partner-in-crime! dick wants to be bruce's son and to be entitled to all of the love and care and protection that that entails but he also wants to be bruce's brother, his equal, his confidante, the one person he trusts more than anyone else in the world, etc. it's a tough place to be! it is paradoxical! and i'm so, so open to seeing that explored and think the way collins attempted to approach it in #408 was marvelous. but the way starlin (and other writers as well) totally swerved right in #416 to create this sudden resentment in bruce that dick had grown out of needing him was.. so utterly bizarre. like completely out of left field in a way i don't understand why people don't question it anymore bc in light of everything in the immediate fifteen years prior to the crisis it makes so little sense. their relationship with each other was so valued, bruce was so anxious to see dick establish himself while nonetheless maintaining a protectiveness over him, but it was all very much in good will even if he could overstep on occasion. it had all of the potential to allow for a very nuanced, empathetic exploration into the dilemmas of parenthood and esp when you are someone like bruce who has to forever live and contend with the crime of taking kids with him out onto the streets. bc he has to feel guilty! there is no escaping it. this is history, done and dusted forever, can't go back in time, so on and so forth. whatever harm comes any robin's way he has to live with as in some part being traceable back to his own actions. and i frankly believe that would be far more likely to evoke grief and anxiousness and concern than it would be bitterness that his son is charting out his own life

#as to do i think starlin did anything well. hmm #i like that he was able to acknowledge that jason's parents were loving people despite their circumstances #it didn't matter that willis was a criminal. what mattered was that he loved his family and would've done anything for them #which was a rare concession from starlin bc his writing could be pretty classist elsewhere #but at the same time idk sometimes i read it back and it's like. i don't think he was actually as classist as winick was ultimately #like it's been a While since i reread the starlin issues #but you could tell he believed jason's demise was less about his social class and more about being unable to fully recover from #or process his trauma as a result of the life he'd lived and the things he'd experience. hence the garzonas saga #and even in a death in the family the question is never about whether jason is acting out bc he's criminally inclined #bruce explicitly says he doesn't think he's given jason enough time to mentally and emotionally recover and that's why #he suspends him. so even starlin knew it was about the trauma first and foremost #and i mean that somewhat goes in line with his reasons for wanting to kill robin to begin with #he thought robin was symbolically representative of child abuse #in that it wasn't the conduit through which a young boy should necessarily grow #and ideally? the way to explore that in a medium that Requires the existence of child vigilantes #would have been to make the distinction that while there is always going to be some danger to every robin at the end of the day #what made the danger to jason distinct was that robin didn't work to resolve His trauma specifically #what robin did for dick is never something it could have done for jason let alone tim. there were too many other factors at play #so if this dilemma had been approached that way rather than starlin pursuing a blanket robin is child abuse ideology #that was subsequently picked up by other writers. then i think we might have gotten somewhere quite interesting #but anyway yeah so he's not my most hated by any means. there are parts i love there are parts i hate #ultimately at the end of the day winick will always be a gazillion times worse #outbox

[dogwithglasses]

i'm kinda sad that i don't have any more of mike grell's green arrow to read. i guess i'll have to reread it

#pete reads green arrow #i'm not gonna reread it any time soon tbh. i've gotta finish the run before i reread anything #plus i've gotta reread kevin smith and brad meltzer and judd winick's ga once i get to the end of the 88 run #i'm also thinking of reading BoP because i haven't read much of it before #and i really wanna read more of dinah bc i love her

[dankovskaya]

Like it's just Winick wanting to retroactively set up precedent for the insane behavior he wanted Jason to engage in but it just makes Alfred and Bruce seem like a couple of vile cunts like even if they didn't telegraph it to him at the time imagine raising a homeless child you took in off the streets while secretly convinced that there is a little bit of something evil in him and that he has the capacity for awful things without proper guidance or whatever.

#Like its internally justified by Winick showing that they were right Lmao but its SICK... #dc #And its just stupid because its a million times more interesting if he WOULDNT have ever had the capacity for any of this if Bruce hadn't #(indirectly or otherwise) allowed him to get killed!

[fancyfade]

2009 era Damian reading

As I've been doing my 2009 era Damian reading, I'm trying to condense the good stuff and bad stuff, and things I believe are relevant for his character. These are in addition to what I assume is obvious (Batman and Robin 2009, the comic where he has a starring role).

Battle for the Cowl: this has how Damian becomes Robin. It's not necessarily good. Daniels really does not understand Damian, especially this early in his writing, but it does have some important context for things going down b/c Damian helps Squire save Tim's life, and we can see Dick viewing training Damian as something he is responsible for.

Secret Origins (2014) #4: This is a much more in character Damian becoming Robin, though fit for a condensed new 52 timeline that leaves some stuff out (like Damian's rocky intro with Bruce).

Batman #688 (Long Shadows part 1): Winick seems one of the early writers who does a Damian as he lines up with later characterization (views himself more as a professional assassin), so I think this one's good.

Batman: streets of Gotham #1-6: damian makes some minor appearances here.

Batgirl #5-7: Always take Damian's guest-starring stuff with a grain of salt, as often times writers just go with "how would an obnoxious 10 year old boy act here" without understanding he's a specific kind of obnoxious 10 year old boy... that said I do like some of his interactions with Steph, and I think it's incredibly important that we see Damian defends his competence based on his training, not on his blood.

Like he'll sometimes justify why he belongs based on his blood (which like... no one acts like they want him around), but he isn't going around saying "I'm better than you b/c I'm batman's son". he was trained intensely since birth (and that's why he should say he's better than you :P)

Batman #692-697: not a ton of Damian in this, and it is Daniel's writing, but he's a little better than he was in Battle for the Cowl. We see Dick training Damian some.

Batman: Streets of Gotham #7, #10-#11: love this plotline for him. Good show of competence and characterization.

Blackest night: batman: More focused on Tim and Dick, and Tomasi sucks at writing Babs, but at there is some Damian content that I remember enjoying.

Red Robin #11-15: as long as you read this one with your brain turned on, it's good for explaining some Tim and Damian stuff. Sadly some fans are like "woooo arrogant 10 year old gets beat up". Nicieza makes some missteps (frames Tim's thinking around Damian as coldly logical, when it is anything but and he is reacting from a place of emotion), but one can ignore those.

Batman #703: shows Damian's character pretty well in a default Batman and Robin adventure, and his relationship (or lackthereof) with Bruce and his dynamic with Dick and Alfred

Teen Titans #88-92 (including Red Robin #20 in a crossover plot): surprised by how well I liked this one. I think it portrays Damian pretty fairly, and we can see that he is trying hard, but hasn't been given a lot of support up until now (or even now, Dick kind of just drops him off with a bunch of older kids who all also have issues and are predisposed to disliking him XD). His dynamic with rose is fun and I think it is notable how quickly he does acquiesce to following Cassie's orders when she's like (at first) the only Teen Titan who is OK with him being there and assures him its not personal when she makes a comment he doesn't like.

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batman and Robin: Has some nice Dick and Damian banter, showcases how they've worked together well

Batgirl #17: more damian and steph interactions.

I will probably add more (either editing this post or in a reblog) as I keep reading.

#dc comics #fade reads dc comics #damian wayne #robin #reading list #sort of #2009 era batfam stuff

[mysterycitrus]

top 5 dc writers & top 5 dick grayson writers pretty plssss

i feel like this q has to come with a big * beside each name because most of these writers have written twice as many terrible comics as they have good. like chuck dixon is a foundational writer for dick (and tim and connor) and he’s also a violent turbo-fascist who’s made the industry indescribably more toxic. devin grayson’s run on nightwing 1996 is an exercise in her weird racist fetish, but she also wrote for titans 1999, one of the better fab 5 comics. grant morrison wrote batman and robin 2009, and irreversibly butchered the popular interpretation of talia al ghul, etc.

so take these with a grain of salt —

1. mark waid — this should be obvious imo. there’s really no competition. the writing (for dick in specific) in worlds finest blows everything else out of the water rn. he can balance large casts well, his version of the titans was fun, he has an obvious knowledge of comic canon. i wish he’d pick up the ongoing nightwing solo and give back dick’s personality.

2. kelley puckett - unironically wrote the best run of all time. no one has done it like him before or since. i need him to come back and write for cass again (or damian). would love to see him write the dick + damian + talia dynamic.

3. scott snyder — this man wrote black mirror (the best dickbats story) and court of owls (which ruined everything). he's three dimensional. he is my enemy. he is not allowed to worldbuild unsupervised.

4. greg rucka — i met him at a con once and he was a very chill dude. he's an ally. he's always wearing a hat. no man's land, u will always be famous.

5. judd winick — this man either writes something that changes the status quo (utrh) or one of the worst books ever (titans 2008). no inbetween. he's a freak. he wants tim drake and kon-el to kiss. honorary ment for being another guy that ruined talia. he does get points for writing outsiders (2003).

also a shoutout to jeff lemire and amy wolfram

#dc comics #nightwing #dick grayson #THIS IS NOT A DEFINITIVE LIST ! #im sure i missed some #the ask and the answer #ask game

[boyfridged]

more time is one of not many stories that winick wrote that makes you feel like he gets jay, just for a moment. the entrance to the batcave is guarded by a clock and can be opened by setting the time to that of the waynes' death... but here, jay fixing thomas wayne's watch conveys the same thing that him meeting bruce in the crime alley did: hope. overwriting the tragedy. and that is precisely what his character was supposed to be when it was first conceived.

bruce's life stopped when his parents died. and then jason says: how about more time? more time. more time. again and again and again

#inconsolable about it #core texts

[redhoodinternaldialectical]

I feel like people always assume that Jason is the more experienced one in jaytim because he’s a few years older but I don’t think there’s anyway that’s true. Jason spent his prime virginity losing years (15-19) dead/catatonic/ on a revenge training tour while Tim was running around being Mr. Bitches at age 17

Oh yeah for sure! Honestly, even with a very spotty knowledge of Tim's canon and sticking entirely to what is most provable, it's pretty clear that he's got a lot more canonical experience.

Jason's partners are... Starfire. Just Starfire. Every other relationship either stopped at chaste kisses and hand holding, or was dubiously consensual at best, or has slid from my mind like water off a duck (I am not willing to reread Lobdell's All Caste stuff just to see if he and Essence boned lmao).

It's also worth mentioning that he hasn't had any long term dating partners either. Isabelle is as close as it gets and he sees her, like, three times? Ever? So Jason's got a single one night stand and a couple of dates under his belt.

Whereas...

Tim and Kon

a BOLD first choice for canonical partners I know, but the thing is, Judd Winick basically confirmed they were fucking in a closet during Graduation Day and that's close enough that I'm straight up gonna count it as canon.

Tim and Tam

Red Robin #18

Tim and Bernard

They live together and Tim is CLEARLY not Ace about him. If you try to convince me they do not fuck I will ask if it is crack you are smoking and demand proof of Ace Bernard.

And that's only the three I can think of off the top of my head and completely discounts tons of his relationships that could have gone further while I wasn't looking.

Tim has more experience with dating. Tim has more experience with fucking. Tim has more experience with having friends. Tim has more experience with basically every kind of human relationship possible. The man was out-rizzing Jason before he could drive lmao

So yeah, if you want Jason to be the big experienced bad boy corrupting poor innocent virgin Timmy, more power to you, but you are definitely playing in an AU

#jaytim #timkon #jason todd #tim drake #damian's tomfoolery

[rmbunnie]

Red Hood Characterization

This is really long so I'm putting a cut here, I've been thinking about Jason Todd's character motivations and the question of whether or not his actions are based in a Moral Code (I don't think so, not to say he's without any morality) and I talk about that in more depth here.

I saw someone say on here that Titans: Beast World: Gotham City was some of the best Jason Todd internal writing they'd seen in a while, and I've been a Red Hood fan for 8 years or so now? pretty much since I read comics for the first time, so I went and checked out and I thought it was good! The way the person I saw talking about it as if it was rare and unusual made me wonder though, because as well-written as i thought his stances on crime were, there wasn't really anything in it that went against the way I conceptualize Jason?

This kinda plays into a larger question I've been thinking about for a while with Jason though, which is that, do people think that the killing is part of a fundamental worldview that motivates him a la batman, and that worldview is the reason he does the things he does?? Because 8 years ago i was a middle schooler engaging with fiction on the level that a middle schooler does, so I simply did not put much thought into it beyond "poor guy :(" but ever since I actually started trying to understand consistent characterization, I don't really see Jason as someone who's motivated by a moral code in his actions the way batman or superman is!

tbh my personal read is that he's a very socially-motivated guy, his actions from resurrection to his Joker-Batman ultimatum in utrh always seemed to me like every choice made leading up to his identity reveal was either a. to give him the leverage and skill necessary to pull off his identity reveal successfully, or b. to twist the knife that little bit more when he does let Bruce find out who he is. Like iirc there's a Judd Winick tweet like "yeah tldr he chose Red Hood as his identity because it's the lowest blow he could think of." And I think that's awesome, I think character motivations rooted so deeply in character's relationships and emotions are really fun to read! I also think it's where the stagnation/flatness of his character comes from in certain comics, because if his main motivation is one event in one relationship that passes, and he is not particularly attached to anything in his life or the world by the time that comes to pass, it's a little harder to come up with a direction to go with the character after that, because there isn't much of a direction that aligns with something the character would reasonably want? But I do think solving this by saying "all of the morally-off emotionally driven cruelty he did on his way to spite Batman was actually reflective of his own version of Batman's stance that's exactly the same except he thinks it's GOOD to kill people" isn't ideal. To be fully honest, it seems to me like he never particularly cared one way or the other about killing people to "clean Gotham of crime," he just did everything he could to get the power necessary to pull off his personal plans, and took out any particularly heinous people he encountered along the way (like in Lost Days.) Not to say I think the fact he killed people keeps him up at night anymore than everything else in his life events, I just never really thought he was out there wholeheartedly kneecapping some dude selling weed or random guy robbing a tv store for justice.

Looping wayyy back to my question, Is this (^) contradictory to the way he's written/the overall average perception of the character? Because like I enjoyed his writing in Beast World i have zero significant issue with anything there, I just didn't believe it would be a hot take, like yeah, that is Jason. It's been a while since I've read utrh and lost days, but I don't think my takeaway directly contradicts either of those too bad iirc. Idk all this to say I think Jason killing and being alright with killing is an obvious and objective fact, but i guess i've always seen it as more of a practical tactic than a moral belief, and I think taking the actions made during the lowest points of a character's life where he is obsessively focused on this ONEEEE thing and trying to apply it as a Motivating Stance to everything he's done after that, doesn't really follow logically for me.

#edit: i am so so open to discussion and disagreement on this but please try to have something substantial to say. god bless! #like ofc jason kills but to me it was less “everyone I've ever killed deserves death objectively” #and more “when people are dead they stop doing things like heinous atrocities and trying to kill me" #i don't even think he wanted the joker dead (only) because he thinks he objectively morally deserves death #although the joker is one of the most extreme cases possible and he if does think that he's VERY justified #i really do think it was just about bruce #and wanting bruce to avenge him to show he loved him and he mattered and wanting his dad to give him security #all the killing was about the clown and everything with the clown was about bruce #i've NEVER forgotten the bit in lost days where he has the joker tied up at gunpoint and doesn't kill him #i think if it was only about a moral greater good situation he would have taken him out then and there #if you disagree i'd love to hear why provided you can be civil and not an jerk #also if you disagree PLEASE PLEASE put screenshots and comic issues if possible #i'd love to check them out and form my own stance on them #just know that if you say like. battle for the cowl. or the Tom King batman annual or something i probably won't care too much #comic characterization is ever-changing and inconsistent i truly believe that the best thing to do is just read the important stuff #and try to form your own stances from there #because there's never gonna be 100% of comics involving a character that align with each other perfectly and that's just a given #jason todd #red hood #dc comics

[cleromancy]

one thing i think people miss when trying to nail down the like nitty gritty of like-- okay. so post-crisis post-resurrection Jason's a hypocrite, right? and hes purposely fancast himself as the villain opposite bruce in utrh.

but also even while Jason's doing this he *has a point,* and he *knows it.* Jasons got a lot of big moral ideas hes spouting, and from what we see, he mostly only abides by *some* of them. so while you're like acknowledging that utrh/lost days jay is motivated by his emotions and doesn't act in ways that align with his moral principles, but also he *keeps bringing **up** those moral principles*, you start to wonder like. What the hell is going on in that big brain of yours jay.

and what i was getting at. the thing i think most people miss or forget when exploring that. is jasons appearance in outsiders 2003.

im looking through the tpb so im not giving you the exact issue numbers for any of these panels sorry but its 44-46 plus the annual.

but here is the crux of the matter:

cutting for length!!

so whats going on here in outsiders! is that black lightning, aka Jefferson pierce, aka anissa pierces dad and one of the few really good dads in the dcu, got (basically) framed for murder by deathstroke; believed he (accidentally) actually did the murder; eventually turned himself in to serve his time in prison.

jason happens across this information entirely by accident, and goes out of his way to deliver that information to dickie, who has an on-again off-again relationship with being the leader of the outsiders at this point in time. and im just going to post a lot of it, both bc i like it and also so you see what Jason was going against JUST TO DELIVER THIS INFORMATION:

skipping the first page to save images but jason asks dick to meet up with him in Gotham; the next pages:

im skipping a bit of really enjoyable fighting after that as well but pls know its there. jason asked dick to meet up and dick fully said okay ill come to your rendez-vous *just* to beat the shit out of you. and he was so valid for that. but this aint about him so lets get back to jason:

why does jason bring this up + how does Jason come by this information? well

ok. now youre as caught up as dick is.

some times fools and jackanapes say to me. but sisky why would jason do this and bring this information to dick. why would he try to break black lightning out of prison. why would he do such a thing when he is a known knave, neer do well, scoundrel, etc. to which i say HE TOLD YOU!!! HE TOLD YOU WHY HE DID IT

JASON FUCKING VALUES THE *GOOD GUYS.*

(and also sidenote. winick is writing this so we have to assume he knows how competent and resourceful jason can be bc... as the guy who defined the character after his resurrection... he *made him that way.* so based on utrh we have to assume both that 1) jason could have pulled this prison break off solo and 2) jason *knows* he could pull it off solo...

but he also knows he's a Bad Guy now, and he realizes that *if* he sprung black lightning hed just fucking! turn himself back in! so jadon needs to convince some big goddamn heroes to do it....

so he goes to dick.)

((and also secondary sidenote. willis todd canoncially spent enough time in and out of prison that jason assumed hed wound up back there without telling him or catherine before she died and jason wound up squatting, and he only found out otherwise when he read the entry on the batcomputer on two-face.))

the point is. jason has a *lot* of moral ideas he is not, at this point in time, capable of living by for a variety of Jason Reasons, ill do more meta on that some other time. so he's inhabiting the bad guy role, but sometimes he keeps slipping and falling and accidentally caring about things, and...

god damn it dick, black lightning is one of the *good* guys. like *you're* one of the good guys. aren't you going to fucking help him??

i will probably elaborate on this more in the future as well. i just need to hit send rn LOL

#jason todd #dc #text #outsiders #meta

[blusandbirds]

"of all the places i could be, why would i want to be here with you?" (robby and johnny)

everything everywhere all at once (2022) // the right path (cobra kai) // kyoto (phoebe bridgers) // december 19 (cobra kai) // the karate kid (1984) // the fall (cobra kai) // the rise (cobra kai) // in newport i watch my father lay his cheek to a beached dolphin's wet back (ocean vuong) // aristotle and dante uncover the secrets of the universe (benjamin alire sáenz) // counterbalance (cobra kai) // pulpo (cobra kai) // now you're gonna pay (cobra kai) // "more time" (judd winick) // long, long way from home (cobra kai)

#web weaving #cobra kai #johnny lawrence #robby keene #as an asian lesbian with a mom im allowed to use the eeaao okay because the speech lives in my brain rent free #but yeah its like a struggle with robby and johnnys relationship always and sometimes im like why but well #i guess the answer is because they want to

[jasontoddenthusiastt]

I think fans want Jason to be a good person or be becoming one. To have a character that is well meaning and compassionate but decided murder is ok and to stand against main heroes who’s beliefs and actions go against the people he cares about and wants in his life. It’s confusing for people. People want their fav characters to be happy. But Jason can’t have his family’s support and follow his moral code. He’s cares about people and Gotham, and he’s an asshole who kills. It’s messy. It’s not black and white. I don’t even think Jason cares about being a good person or in the right anymore. I think he cares about what will save the most people instead.

Oh my goodness gracious I’ve been bamboozled

Batman’s definition of Good is not synonymous with absolute good/right no matter how much dc insists it is. Torture, battery/assault, surveillance, those are all condemnable actions too. I won’t get into the exhausting and frankly dumb debate of comic book morality wrt killing because I’ve already reblogged plenty of posts from other people who explained my thoughts on the matter far better than I ever have the patience to sit down and articulate. I also just think the notion that there’s something to be done about fictional characters who kill nazis and senseless murderers is stupid. Jason’s point is that the “main” heroes’ sanitized definition of right has its unaddressed holes and flaws which ultimately result in more preventable fatalities, and that he’ll work to correct those missing spots.

He doesn’t not care about doing what’s right. What he doesn’t care about (at least during his Winick characterization) is whether Batman thinks he’s right or wrong, because he sees the flaws in Batman’s methodology (and since he has a mind of his own). Batman’s methods alone cannot address Arkham’s revolving door and the rogues that come and go through those doors who have no intention (or capability from the doylist pov) of ever changing or undergoing redemption. Jason knows that he’s minimizing the number of preventable deaths by killing his targets, typically Characters Who Simply Do Fucked Up Shit Just Because, Why The Fuck Not?

Secondly, Jason is compassionate … to a fault. That was his fatal flaw. If he wasn’t so hell-bent on saving his potential birth mother he just met from that bomb despite everything she did to him prior, he could have protected himself instead, however slim his odds of survival were. What about his relationship with his other parents? He was a caregiver during his early childhood years for Catherine, until her death. Even mature adults who are financially stable find being a caregiver to a dying parent to be extremely burdensome on their bodies and minds, but he never complained about it or resented Catherine for being unable to care for him. Despite how none of his parents have really been what he needed them to be, he doesn’t blame them for their failings, and even continues to think highly of them (Bruce included).

And post-death? Enter Lost Days. Despite being dead set on plotting his revenge on Bruce, he constantly sidelines this in order to save other victims who are helpless like he once was. His own anger, trauma, and mission don’t remain his priority. (Sound familiar? Something something my own trauma above my son’s, mission above all else, etc.). Why would he waste precious time and risk his own life to do this if he wasn’t empathetic towards these victims or didn’t care about doing the right thing. He is simultaneously horribly traumatized and full of rage, and also incapable of ignoring what’s happening to victims around him (even as he claims that it’s indeed not his priority). And in that same vein, the entire premise of his rebirth outlaws run was that he doesn’t care if the public views him as a villain, an outlaw, so long as he can protect Gotham. And anyway where is this portrayal of him not caring about being in the right anymore. Almost every modern Jason story is about him grappling with where he stands with Bruce/Batman. During the early 2000s was probably the last time he did not care (hello, tentatodd??).

Jason has very evidently been portrayed as a kind and compassionate character. He is also simultaneously a calculated killer who doesn’t hesitate to kill when he deems necessary, and does so without remorse. It’s called being a Complex Character With An Edge™ that as you said, people so often claim to love. However when he fulfills that latter part, that seems to upset people because “killing bad”, and they then try to shave off and round out all his edges and claim he shouldn’t be that angry. In that case I guess you should just stick to liking traditional one-dimensional characters instead of claiming to like Jason but then encouraging his character assassination attempt by dc. Lol.

Lastly, who said anything about the batfam making Jason happy? Just because he’s written nowadays to want acceptance from Bruce (a shoddy attempt at forcing a non-existent nuclear batfamily), doesn’t mean that it’s a sound decision or that it does his character justice. I certainly don’t empathize with the idea that Jason needs the family’s approval or acceptance to be happy. (And anyway he has enough outlets for angst and pain aside from the batfam hello explore his other sources of trauma and do more deep dives into how he thinks when he’s alone). I don’t want them to magically make up and become one big happy family. This is not disney Lol. Besides, there are plenty of stories from dc that have that type of “wholesome” (hate that word utilization) characterization for Jason (Li’l Gotham, Tiny Titans, wfa, and even new stuff like the brave and the bold mini) and that is sufficient imo. Jason fans who are invested in the character deserve accurate, nuanced characterization and well-written stories, whether they be from his robin days (e.g., Batman: The Cult) or as red hood.

#fellas. ya know what else is wholesome? avenging your own death #you can have moments of ‘reconciliation’ or peace but still maintain a strained relationship which is far more realistic #‘he’s an asshole that kills’ and Bruce is an asshole who doesn’t kill. lol. #you can’t claim Jason’s conflicted and disturbed but go on to say Bruce is perfectly sane those two are mutually exclusive #also please realize that a character acting out of anger does not mean they lack compassion. #implying that he doesn’t care about doing the right thing is saying the same thing that person said; #that he doesn’t actually know what he’s doing. that he hasn’t thought through his moral stance. #‘Jason didn’t put any thought into anything he did in utrh he’s just a poor mentally ill lost soul who needs the batfam’s love to heal 💔’ #🤝 #‘jokers just a poor victim of society 😔 he just needs someone to understand him and maybe one day he’ll heal and realize he’s wrong’ #what they both have in common is that they’re misunderstood in opposite directions #the joker doesn’t have a point to prove. there’s no deeper meaning behind what he does. everything is a joke to him. #he isn’t unaware of right vs wrong lmfao #jason todd #dc #asks #my post #and I think you’re implying that he’s utilitarian based on that last part but I don’t think he is #user mintacle posted a few metas regarding that and again they explain it much better than I prob could #anyway it isn’t difficult to understand his character if you know why you like him and you actually read his stories #that post specifically was from someone who clearly said they did not read the comic so. technically they’re on their own wavelength #edit: grammar

[fastestmanalive333]

Rundown on my AU Earth-1987

Heavily based around New Earth.. a continuation in a sense accept for a few changes

-Bart Allen is the big resurrection instead of Barry, Conners resurrection in Legion of 3 Worlds stays intact Bart continues as the flash and gets the title but keeps his impulse and old personality unlike fastest man alive, Wally gives him a made up oath and goes goes to retire to be a dad and raise the twins, Bart is unsure of his New position.. he reconnects with Carol Bucklen..

-Roy Harper continues as Red Arrow Cry of Justice simply does not happen and Lian is still alive, he will even go on to join the Justice League

-The Justice League will be very much led by Dick Grayson the line up will consist of

-Nightwing, Superman, Martian Manhunter, Troia, Red Arrow, Jade, Obsidian, The Atom (Ryan Choi), The Flash (Bart Allen), and a New Green Lantern (Terry Berg) more on him later, Firestorm (Ronnie/Jason), Kendra Saunders(Hawkgirl) and Cyborg(Victor Stone)

-Titans will mostly consist of the YJ characters except Bart the line up will consist of Red Robin, Sentinel (Kon-El) he will now move on from the superboy moniker and become his own hero, Fury(Cassie Sandsmark) will be trained by Lyta Trevor the Fury of the newly reformed Earth Two and the daughter of Wonder Woman and Steve trevor her and Conner will be dating once again, Ravager (Rose Wilson), Red Devil(Eddie Bloomberg), Blue Beetle(Jaime Reyes), Static (Virgil Hawkins), Aquawoman(Lorena Marquez)

-Gar and Raven will join JL Dark along with Zatanna and others

-Batman: Batman will run batman incorporated Duke Thomas will be in this canon and will have met batman during no man's land as opposed to Zero Year, he will be Cass' best friend and will become The Signal, Gothams day protector unlike main continuity he will not be in the Batfamily, he will be his own unique hero, Jason Todd will have his pre crisis origin and hair color.. controversial ik.. but for the sake of preference that will be so, he will be an anti-villain crime boss controlling the drug trade, him and Bruce won't be at odds with each other, he simply does not approve of the path Jay has taken and it saddens him, Jay cares about Bruce too.. but he has chosen this life he will still be with Scarlet, Stephanie Brown will still be Batgirl, Barbara will still act as Oracle, Joker will have the doll maker remove his face and the court of owls will be introduced as Justice League villains instead of batman villains, they will very much be a worldwide illuminati type organization Damian will still act as Robin the bat fam will just be smaller and have Bruce, Dick, Damian, and Steph

-Green Lantern: Hal Jordan will marry Carol and Kyle Rayner will lead the corps, the mythos will be explored more, Terry Berg will be given kyles ring after kyle becomes a white lantern, Terry is Kyle Rayners assistant in Winicks run he will become The fifth earth lantern, kyle and Terry will get more bonding moments.. Kyle and Jade will get back together and marry for real this time, Terry's character will be explored more

-Superman: Kal will lead the Supermen of America a new team, Chris will be living with Clark and Lois again, he will be attending college classes with Thara and will be best friends with Duke Thomas, their dynamic will be like a swapped version of batman and superman.. Chris being the more serious super and Duke being the lighthearted bat, Chris will be able to control shadows and darkness, Duke controls light, him and Thara will be members of the JL Dark, Thara will assume the civillian identity, Claire Connor Lang acting as Karas sister, Kara Zor El/Linda Lang will still be living with lana and be on her last year of high school she will meet and team up with Linda Danvers her predecessor and they will quickly become friends, Conner will still be in Smallville now going to school at Kansas State.. the same college Chris goes too Kon will see him as a brother/Cousin, and they will be a duo in themselves they will all deal with the repercussions of zods war on earth

-The JSA: It will very much feature mostly the children and grandchildren of the jsa.. the remaining founding members will pass on.. except Jay and Carter Jay will act as mayor of NYC quitting the team giving guidance when needed, the JSA Hawkman will continue on with the JSA

Flash: Bart Allen will now be the main flash.. he will not be so sure he can do it again.. he failed.. he died.. and failed.. he will reconnect with his old friends in Manchester now all adults, him and Carol's relationship will spark, now working for Star Labs, Bart will get a job as a reporter at Picture News with Iris and we will see their relationship more Rival will return still possessing Max's body he will be the first big bad and it will give Bart and Max the closure they deserve, him and Bart will speak in the speed force where he will call him son before passing on, we will establish his rogues, the old rogues will still be on, barts old villains will hoin in too including White Lightning, Irey will become Barts Kid Flash

Wonder Woman: Diana will be working for the government and working to rebuild themysciras connection to earth, the amazons tactics have changed no visitors are welcome, Cassie will unleash her Olympian abilities more, she will cross over to earth two and meet Hippolyta Trevor the Daughter of Earth Two Wonder Woman, she will take on the name Fury, while Donna has uncovered a prophecy.. depicting the rise of an old God long defeated known as Typhon the Enemy of the Gods

Green Arrow: Ollie will still be married to Dinah, Robert Queen II will join the arrow family, Roy will gain a bigger role, Olivia Queen will be born

Aquaman: Arthur will retire with Mera, Garth will now be the king of atlantis, but he will not be the Aquaman.. Koryak will be the new Aquaman, a more brutal aquaman, although meaning well, it will feel like a tale of two brothers, Garth and Koryak will constantly butt heads.. Dolphin and Cerdian will be revealed to have not died but survived the destruction of atlantis in infinite crisis having been taken by atlan, Cerdian will have aged to 10 having been in the pocket dimension with atlan so long... the family will be reunited at last.. Cerdian will become Aqualad

Captain Marvel: Billy and Mary go on a quest to get their powers back which they do successfully, Freddy and Kit Freeman reunite the long lost freeman Brothers together at last they go on a journey through hell together

#dc comics #superman #batman #wonder woman #justice league #justice league of america #damian wayne #kara zor el #chris kent #nightwing #nightwing and flamebird #flamebird #dc #thara ak var #new krypton #changeling #linda danvers #duke thomas dc #stephanie brown #cassandra cain #steph brown #batfam #tim drake #batman incorporated #cassie sandsmark #hal jordan #kyle rayner #terry berg #justice society of america #irey west

[aalghul]

Nice post about Roy I like how kind your response was. But yeah as a Roy fan I find the idea that he would hate anyone but the man who killed his daughter to be silly. Cause like thing is Roy has a line till he doesn’t. Like you said Roy draws a line for himself with Cheshire but he never ever 100 percent commits. Even after the bombing and her holding a gun to Lian and threatening to shoot her while trying to escape prison, in his time with the League he still is hinted to love her and still lets Lian visit her. Flash forward to now they are still on again off again lovers/enemies. The old Titans ‘Roy breaks up with Cheshire’ story was written like it was the full end of their relationship but DC loves that concept and in comics they will always come back.

With Mia or people hurting his family Roy would not care at the end of the day unless that family member died sorry. Roy forgave a woman who babysat Lian and helped terrorists kidnap her and then broke his leg in an attempt to kill Cheshire. No he didn’t just forgive her he offered to let her keep babysitting Lian saying he didn’t think he had the right to judge anyone.

People other than Roy say he belongs in the light but Roy kind of hates that about himself and actively denies and resists it because he thinks the dirty work is the real important work. He worked in fantasy superhero CIA for years and even killed for them, left and made the Outsiders, initially didn’t want to leave and basically stayed till the last second till his mental health gave in, joined the League and didn’t actually have a great time with the group or ever really believe he belonged, had a horrible ending with that group and became a straight up villain after the ROA fiasco and worked on a team of villains all of whom except Slade he expressed some sort of sympathy for.

Roy just doesn’t give up on people and kind of really wants to do antihero work and tries to again and again. The age/maturity thing kind of gets it but that only matters where you connect Roy and Jason, they are peers and work together in some fashion off screen for a year in Outsiders, put a ROA recovering villain Roy with really any post UTRH Jason save Morrison Jason and you could write an intergenerational friendship arc easy.

People forget but before 52 first started a lot of people wanted a Jason Roy book. It was floated around as an idea for ages and rumor was even Winick made a pitch but can’t confirm. When 52 was first announced a lot of people thought not only that RHATO made sense and only Kory didn’t belong but thought the comic had real potential. And really it might have since Roy and Cheshire at one point would not have made sense for either character and notably everything about their relationship happened off screen. We give things a pass because of how well the stories are written. I think most issues with comics are people moralizing about the characters and saying they would never do this or that when 9 times out of 10 the writer just shat over the execution of a concept and the writing as is was shit.

-- i’m just going to include my thoughts down here --

I agree with everything you said about Roy just not being the person who holds a lot of hatred for people. He comes off as strict and even angry sometimes, but at heart, he’s one of the most understanding characters.

I always took Roy’s failed attempts at being an anti-hero as proof that it’s not what he’s meant to do. He keeps trying because he sees his sympathy and desire to do more as a sign that he needs to get his hands dirtier, but each time leaves him with the realization that he can’t be doing that type of work. He was reluctant to leave the Outsiders because he didn’t want to abandon them, that’s why he does leave as soon as Ollie provides funding for them (which he also does specifically because he knows Roy wouldn’t leave, no matter how much he wanted to, otherwise). The Outsiders did end in Roy himself realizing he couldn’t stay there.

I think Roy has always worked best in the various Titans teams he’s been part of. Unfortunately, Teen Titans (2003) set a new status quo with enough of the original Titans leaving and the team working under the leadership of younger members even when more experienced Titans were present. So we could never really go back to the titans as they were in any of the iterations prior to that.

I don’t think Jason and Roy worked together for a whole year; it was just Jason reaching out to Dick, and then subsequently teaming up with him and Roy to give them information of Black Lightning. Which definitely worked to let Roy know the type of person that Jason is (i.e. not a villain), but it was also very much through Dick, so it would again be a reminder of the time that Jason, as a child, teamed up with Roy and the others. Roy’s affinity to taking a guiding role when he works with team members significantly younger than him is just such an important part of who he is that I can’t get past it. I don’t mean to say that Roy’s going to treat Jason like a child, but that there’s going to be a significant gap between their friendship as compared to the friendship that post-flashpoint gave them. Roy is just at a completely different stage from Jason, who is essentially just beginning to catch up on life as a teenager. That difference can’t be ignored easily.

I didn’t read comics back then (and was also a very little kid lol) so I didn’t know about that being something people wanted back then! It must be disappointing to see how it’s turned out.

At the end of the day, I personally think that Roy and Jason could work together very well short-term, and then it would have to end in them walking their separate ways because Roy can never stay in the dark too long, whether he admits it or not. I get what you’re saying about good execution making all the difference, though! I just want to stay as consistent to Roy’s character as possible, so Jason and Roy as best friends/a long-term anti-hero duo never quite works out.

#submited by #anonroyfan #and there is also the fact that a lot of roy's writing post lian's death was just. bad. lazy at many parts #i hope this is coherent bc there are a lot of words and i proof read none of them

[tsaricides]

wanted to send this to boyfridged but I saw that you were shadow banned 🫡 but it's always so jarring seeing writers try and turn Jason into a "ladies man" or whatever, he's so clearly not interested and non equipped to be in a relationship and the way they handle it each time is so funny because there's clearly 0 effort put into it and it's a shame because when he first came back part of what made his character interesting was that he was almost a subversion of the gritty 90s antivillain without most of the macho hyper masculine aspects in short to me he's like a Ken doll ❤️

essentially! i think winick def did also allow himself to drift into the macho stereotype a bit, but jason's youth and sensitivity was a much more prominent theme at the time. the tears! the focus on his role as a child to a parent rather than any other kind of bond...

the thing for me is that i'm not even against him getting a romantic storyline in general. though that's in far, far future, because as you said yourself, i don't think this is something he is even interested in at all, and most def not at this point. but i don't think that it should be these fleeting romances? others have already expressed the sentiment, perhaps more precisely, but jason is not someone who takes love lightly. if there's anything he takes lightly at all. there's both the expectation of commitment and his own abandonment issues that would affect any relationship tremendously. but dc doesn't even afford the exploration of it in his friendships. we just get characters dropped at him (like steph and dana even...) with a couple of lines about how they are best friends and with them already knowing pretty much everything there is about jason... but as readers we know that this is the kind of vulnerability that he's been chasing for very long and was always denied. at times, by himself too. is this not something that deserves more than a stray panel dumping that info on us?

and speaking of stray weird panels, not sure if you've read rh: the hill #2 yet but i just wanted to confirm that the make out session panels did not, in fact, contribute anything to it!

#i know that most people like to ignore it but i also like to remind people about what winick did to talia #and the infamous pages of lost days that none of us comment on #which was however i think the first symptom of all that was to come in that department

[fantastic-nonsense]

also before anyone gets the wrong idea about my Jason response, I wasn't trying to say that Jason doesn't care about women and kids or that a well-characterized Jason wouldn't respect women. The point I was trying to make is that while Canon!Jason is perfectly happy to shoot rapists or abusers or drug dealers dealing to kids because he thinks they're scum, he's not shown as someone who like...specifically sets out to protect the unprotected or thinks it's his actual mission to do so.

Post-Crisis!Jason had exactly two life goals as Red Hood: make Batman's life a living hell by creating chaos and prove he's "better" at crimefighting than Bruce. Even taking over Gotham's gang scene was largely a means to an end for him. He kills all those guys because he genuinely thinks the world is better off without them, but his primary goal is not actually to clean up Gotham for the sake of cleaning it up or to protect other people from suffering his own fate; it's to fuck with and piss off Bruce by showing him that his way (killing people and becoming a crime lord) is a "more effective" way of solving crime. And in doing so, he often fucked over or blatantly used people he would have previously died to protect when he was Robin.

And whether or not you agree with that characterization, Judd Winick has been very open in interviews about how Jason's hypocrisy is something he genuinely enjoyed writing, so it was clearly a deliberate choice on his part to portray Jason that way even disregarding the various awful OOC characterizations of Jason we had to deal with in other post-Crisis stories:

As we saw in the original run, he’s also comfortable controlling crime and even becoming a part of it. He can’t kill everyone, nor does he want to. So, along with handing out his own brand of justice, he does believe that crime can be controlled. Batman had said it makes you a crime lord. Jason doesn’t think it makes him a crime lord at all. He thinks it makes him a much more effective Batman. Yes, Jason sees what he’s doing as making himself into a better Batman, the Batman that the world actually needs today. But some of that is just Jason fooling himself. The truth is, all of it is based in the fact that Jason is just damaged and tortured and angry with Bruce. And this is a constant revenge upon him..... ......I also like the fact that Jason’s actions aren’t black and white. Sometimes he functions in that gray area, and it gives you the license to be somewhat hypocritical, because he is. I used to do that with Oliver Queen in Green Arrow, and people would go crazy, because I thought it was interesting to explore that sometimes he’s a bit of a hypocrite. I find that likable about the character. And in Jason’s case, he professes that he’s trying to be a better Batman and he’s trying to rid the world of evil, but then he’s also just trying to stick it to Batman. It’s very much a man-child thing going on. [x]

Warning for victim-blaming Jason for his own death in this one:

Jason can do a certain level of good in one arc and a horrible in the next, and none of that would be out of character. He’s very unpredictable. Maybe that’s what makes him kind of interesting. He’s someone who is tortured, he’s someone who is damaged, he is someone who has been through a lot and is still just trying to find his way. You could say he’s a good man who does very, very bad things, and it’s not always the case that he’s doing bad things for the greater good, sometimes it’s doing bad things just for the bad. Killing villains in his opinion isn’t a bad thing. There is somewhat a message and methodology to what he’s doing, but at the same time he lets his emotions get the better of him. It’s what got him killed. It’s the sort of thing that Jason, in a way, wouldn’t surprise me if he is viewed as somewhat heroic for a fashion, but then falls back on bad behavior, which could happen from year to year, you don’t know. From anti-hero to villain to back again, I don’t know. [x]

So that's the opinion of the man who brought Jason back to life, wrote his debut arc as Red Hood, and also wrote the one other post-Crisis story Jason fans universally like (Lost Days).

Meanwhile post-Flashpoint!Jason is generally too busy dealing with his own trauma and his teammates' issues to actually dedicate any significant, consistent effort to protecting and saving vulnerable populations like sex workers, abused women, and orphaned children. Wanting to save them is usually his response when he stumbles upon something happening, but reboot!Jason generally does not consider it a core moral mission to seek out opportunities to protect or save these groups. Writers other than Scott Lobdell occasionally gave him stories featuring him doing so, but they were incredibly few and far between since Lobdell was Jason's primary writer for nearly a decade. Not to mention Lobdell's blatant misogyny led to a Jason that repeatedly objectified women and engaged in casual sexism on a depressingly regular basis...which despite being theoretically antithetical to Jason's childhood and Robin-era characterization is a characterization he maintained throughout the majority of his post-reboot appearances. So like...that's also a thing to consider.

DC finally seems to be moving a little more in the direction of matching Jason's motivations with his pre-death characterization (where he DID consistently showcase a genuine respect for women and desire to protect vulnerable children), but until that becomes a more consistent aspect of his character now I can't in good conscience pretend like fanon's interpretation of Red Hood!Jason as this incredibly pro-woman guy who has a core character trait of respecting and protecting women and wanting to keep children out of the crossfire actually exists in canon. That's the point I was trying to make in my original post about Jason and Helena. Nothing more, nothing less.

#long post #jason todd #jason todd meta #dc comics #queue