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artist-issues · 2 months

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Hi! I've seen you comment a bit here and there about Pocahontas. This movie has had this quite messy reputation attached to it since it came out and hasn't been able to escape from it since then. Personally, I've always liked Pocahontas, but I do acknowledge that it has its glaring issues, especially when it comes to the context of what actually went down and Pocahontas's true story. I'm interested in reading your thoughts on the movie and what Disney could have done better regarding the whole "diversity" and historical accuracy thing. I genuinely believe Disney had the best of intentions when it came to the themes, message and depiction of Native American culture, but the execution unfortunately did not seem the most appropriate at times. What do you think?

I don’t know. I don’t have a settled opinion on Pocahontas. I will say I really enjoy it, and I think maybe the aesthetics of the movie are what appeal to me the most because it’s the one I want to have on in the background most often.

When you say “what Disney could’ve done better regarding the whole ‘diversity’ and historical accuracy thing” and “did not seem the most appropriate at times,” I don’t know if I understand what you mean. I don’t know if I understand what anyone means when they say that.

There are almost zero cold hard facts about the historical Pocahontas that EXPERTS agree on. Almost zero. So when people say “oh no, it wasn’t historically accurate,” it’s like, “no, of course it’s not. It’s a fairy tale based on a historical person that we know very little about to begin with.” Seems like what they’re mainly mad about is that Historical John Smith’s version of Historical Pocahontas saving him is the framework for the animated film, and we all generally agree that his version was fake. And people are mad about that?

But…why? If it’s already supposed to be a fairy tale loosely inspired by a historical person we know very little about…I mean, nobody is furious with the Robin Hood stories and going “how dare you misrepresent Robin of Lockersley, 1160, and King Richard I!!” Because we all know that they’re stories loosely based on—anyway. You get my point. Why would you have beef about a fairy tale being based loosely? Moving on.

You can say “because now generations of kids are growing up thinking that’s the real story of Pocahontas!! What an outrage!”

…All right, well, then you’re doing a terrible job teaching your kids discernment as a parent. When kids I’m responsible for watch a movie, I tell them “it’s a movie. It’s not real.” If it’s a movie about historical events, I tell them, “If you want to know more about the real story, let’s learn about the real story.” It’s not on Disney to teach your kids that a fairy tale is a fairy tale, it’s on you.

Anyway, you get it. Moving on.

Thing is, the Pocahontas movie’s message is “Love tries to understand, not to possess.” Great message. Especially good when applied to the problem of prejudice.

So then, they just shift the events, the character motivations, and the depictions around as needed, like they would any fairy tale in order to send that message in the best way. And because it is a fairy tale, not a documentary, great. Do it.

If Historical John Smith’s fake story makes that message more compelling, great. Use pieces of it. Why not? After all, they never claimed that this was the true, accurate history of colonization, the Anglo-Powhatan war, or John Smith’s interactions with Pocahontas. If they had made that claim, sure, let’s talk about historical accuracy. But they didn’t, so let’s not.

That’s all I had to say about the “historical inaccuracies” thing. Now let’s talk about “representation.”

What is it that people have an issue with here? Did they really want Disney to animate hundreds of Powhatan’s people dying of disease? Did they want Disney to animate heads getting chopped off and women getting raped? What’s the argument? That Disney should’ve made the colonists the clear and undeniable villains, the monsters of history, and the Native Americans 100% pure and innocent, wronged victims?

They’re not mad that Disney did a bad job representing Native Americans in a movie that was supposed to be a fairy tale. They’re mad that Disney didn’t represent Native Americans the way they would’ve.

Far as my eyes can see, people who call Pocahontas racist or misrepresentative just don’t want the story to be “Love tries to understand, not to possess.” They want the story to be “White colonists were unredeemable racist monsters and sub-human tyrants who deserved to rot in hell, while the Native American people were entirely innocent victims who did nothing wrong.’

The problem is that’s just not a true, or even helpful message for any movie to have. Sorry. The statement I just typed out up there in bold is not a true or helpful statement. And thank God the Pocahontas movie didn’t make it.

There’s nothing racist being said in the Pocahontas movie. There are depictions of the sin of racism in the Pocahontas movie. There is a difference. Characters in the Pocahontas movie talk and sing about each other as if the other people group is sub-human. That is a depiction of racism. But the message of the movie, and the way it treats Native Americans, is to treat them like human beings. Therefore, the message is not racist.

In terms of who is good and who is bad, who is right and who is wrong, the movie very clearly shows that the Native American characters did not start the violence. The Native American characters did not want war. The Native American characters were willing to be friendly and willing to defend their land and each other. The Native American characters were the first to try and make peace with the colonist characters. And they were all (Kocoum included) entirely human characters. They were even the good-guy-coded characters, in the movie’s conflict. All of the Native American side characters are noticeably smarter, kinder, drawn more carefully, and are more heroic than the white characters. (When Thomas is thrown overboard the other white side characters leave him behind. In contrast, when Namonteck is shot the other Native American side characters rescue him immediately and fall back.) And, not a caricature among them. Meanwhile, Wiggins, Ben, and Lion are all drawn with exaggerated characteristics. The heroine is Pocahontas the Character, not John Smith the Character. So what is the issue you have?

What people think is racist is the “idealization” of a Native American woman falling in love—or, as they like to say now—“committing herself to a white colonist.” But that’s like…a gross oversimplification of the movie. John Smith (the character) committed himself right back to her, nobody wants to talk about that? Also, they low key didn’t commit themselves to each other at all costs—he tries to, at the end of the movie, stay with her or have her come with him, and she won’t leave her home and her people?? So what’s the argument?

Not to mention, why is anyone even upset that the character Pocahontas falls in love with a white colonist character? Are you saying that this sort of thing would never happen? That a young woman who’s people are embattled with and mistreated by invaders would never find one invader who comes to an understanding with her, and then they fall in love? You’re mad because that would never happen? Incorrect. It happened all the time in history. It happens all the time in other stories you love, like West Side Story.

Who the heck cares if it didn’t happen exactly that way (even though maybe it did) with the historical Pocahontas? We already established that this wasn’t supposed to be a historically accurate retelling, it was supposed to be a loosely-based fairy tale. And the message “Love tries to understand, not to possess,” works perfectly with a fairy tale where the girl from one side of a racially-charged hate war understands and falls in love with a guy from the other side.

I mean people who talk about Pocahontas, the historical figure, with reverence and respect, all usually agree on one thing: she did help maintain some kind of peace between colonists and Native Americans. Whether or not you think the colonists should’ve even been there in the first place is beside the point—sorry, but it is; they were there, now let’s deal with the reality.

So when Disney makes a movie where the goal is to tell the message “Love tries to understand, not to possess,” and they have to be true to the universally-agreed-upon “Pocahontas probably helped bring some peace…” in their fairy tale…why on earth do you have a problem with Pocahontas the Character falling in love as a reason for bringing about that peace?

It’s because you don’t find “falling in love” to be anything other than demeaning for a woman. And it’s because you don’t want John Smith, or any white colonist character, to be depicted as human. You want them all to be unredeemable racist monsters.

The goal is no longer to have movies that say what Pocahontas said. We don’t want movies where there’s messy racism, but then it ends with attempts at peace and understanding. We want movies where there’s entirely one-sided racism, and then revenge for that racism. That’s what we want. We want endless apologies and zero forgiveness.

And for better or worse, Pocahontas is not a movie about endless apologies and zero forgiveness.

IN CONCLUSION: 1. None of the “you” statements were directed at you, idiosyncraticrednebula. 🫡

2. Anyone who wants to teach me where I’m wrong is welcome to, but you have to show your work, and you have to be consistent, you can’t just say “lol imagine thinking Pocahontas isn’t racist. You are the problem.” and then block me. 🙄 all right, well, you can, but all you’ll get out of it is an echo chamber.

3. If you want me to talk about the art, the storytelling, the quality of the movie outside of all this (and it should be outside of all this, because this was a fairy tale, not a historically accurate documentary) it’ll have to be in a different ask, and I’m happy to.

4. Should Disney have made it more clear that this was a fairy tale, a stylized story based only loosely on historical events? …Yeah. Definitely should’ve done a Prince of Egypt-style title card or something. But they didn’t—so now show me why it’s racist or misrepresentative.

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yen-sids-tournament · 7 months

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King Clawthorne v Meeko

King Clawthrone

Animal: Titan

Person: Eda Clawthorne

TV Show: the Owl House (2020-2023)

Meeko

Animal: Racoon

Person: Pocahontas

Movie: Pocahontas (1995)

#disneyanimalbesties #disney #disney animated movies #disney channel #disney tv shows #yen sids poll #disney tournament #pocahontas #pocahontas 1995 #eda clawthorne #owl house #titan #racoon #meeko #king clawthorne

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cjbolan · 4 months

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Aeolus being a woman for some reason gives Pocahontas vibes

#epic the ocean saga #epic: the musical #epic the musical #the odyssey #homer #greek mythology #classical mythology #aeolus #keep your friends close #pocahontas #disney #disney pocahontas #pocahontas 1995

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decadent-lemon-cakes · 2 months

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So, I love Disney, and have this big family tree of hundreds of Disney (mostly... maybe) characters that I have been working on for years. I feel like I have finally sunk enough of my life into it that I can finally share it with a wider audience. This poll will decide the first character I share! And I'm sorry if your princess didn't show up! I only got 12 spots so I had to cut some.

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bones4thecats · 4 months

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Uhhhhh.... I don't think this is all right...

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capturingdisney · 1 year

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#Pocahontas #pocahontas 1995 #john smith #disney #disneyedit #disney edit #disneycap #capturingdisney #*

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elvisqueso · 3 months

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Pocahontas/John Smith Fic Rec List

In light of my recent inability to be chill at all about this ship or the movie, I've put together a fic rec list for the perusal of anyone wanting to dip in the waters with me.

I generally kept to one fic per author, but quite a few of these writers have some impressive catalogues of fic; and although I picked one personal fave per author for this list, there are a TON of excellent picks on these authors' pages, so please, please check them out!

[ big thanks to @revangerang for being the lead witness to me absolutely losing it for the past, like, 2 weeks. ]

One Shots:

The Royal Progress by babyb26 [ ff.net | Ao3 ]

When Pocahontas tries to escape the love triangle between her head and her heart by traveling with the king and queen on their royal progress. What could go wrong? What happens when a mysterious stranger claims her as his Queen of Love and Beauty? Can one dance alter a seemingly unhappy future? A wee bit supernatural. Dedicated to SunRise19 and HC247 Rating T-M

Tags: Romance/Supernatural, Solstice/Midsummer, Ritual Sex, Tarot, Love Confessions, Court of King James I Rating: M Chapters: 1/1 Word Count: 12,871 Published/Updated: 12/25/2019

Notes: I love me some supernatural elements, and this one-shot is a nice change of pace for this ship, since it focuses on bringing in old spiritual practices of the Isles. This author has a much broader catalogue of fic, so be sure to check out their page!

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When Hearts Meet by WishingDreamer5 [ ff.net ]

The moment he locked eyes with her, John Smith was utterly lost.

Tags: Romance Rating: T Chapters: 1/1 Word Count: 324 Published/Updated: 8/11/2015

Notes: Just a short, sweet little one-shot. <3

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Deleted Scene by fokkusu94 [ ff.net ]

You know how John Smith never tells Pocahontas that he loves her in the movie? Well, for whatever reason, the writers left it out. This is that scene.

Tags: Romance Rating: K+ Chapters: 1/1 Word Count: 1,473 Published/Updated: 1/24/2014

Notes: What is says on the tin; fluffy and sweet!

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Light My Candle by HC247 [ ff.net ]

Pocahontas and John run into a bit of trouble on their wedding night. Fun, fluffy, romance. For Sunrise.

Tags: Romance/Humor Rating: T Chapters: 1/1 Word Count: 936 Published/Updated: 12/27/2009

Notes: HC247 is another author with a massive selection of fic to choose from, so it was hard to single one out. This was probably the first one of theirs I read, and it's still a favorite I like to revisit.

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Sweet Sorrow by guardyanangel [ ff.net ]

"What pain? I've had worse pain than this." It was somewhat truthful. What was worse than the pain from his physical injury was the emotional agony he felt knowing he'd have to leave her. Nonetheless… "I just can't think of any right now." JS/P Oneshot

Tags: Romance/Angst Rating: K+ Chapters: 1/1 Word Count: 1,503 Published/Updated: 10/8/2010

Notes: Hope you like pain. I do. ಥ_ಥ

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Dream Giver by EnInkahootz [ Ao3 ]

After the events of Pocahontas, John Smith and Pocahontas reunite in a dream.

Tags: Romance, Ficlet, Dreams Rating: T Chapters: 1/1 Word Count: 665 Published/Updated: 3/3/2020

Notes: Another bit of wistful fluff <3

Completed Chapter Fics:

The Path to You by Cherriepixie27 [ff.net | Ao3]

This is a fix-it fic in which Pocahontas and John Smith end up together. Ignoring the end of Journey to a New World because I will go down with this ship. Lots of angst and eventual smut, hence the M rating!

Tags: Romance/Angst Rating: E Chapters: 2/2 Word Count: 6,931 Published/Updated: 7/20/2021-9/9/2022

Notes: I love the characterization in this fic. It's got a great balance of angst and yearning and romance. Just two people, finally finding each other again.

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Shadows Cast by doodlegirll [ ff.net | Ao3 ]

What if, at the Hunt Ball, instead of a bear baiting, there was a prisoner? ..:Dedicated to my friend Kayla:..

Tags: Romance/Drama, Hurt/Comfort, Whipping [John Smith Whump], Angst with a Happy Ending, Racism/Racist Language, etc. Rating: T Chapters: 13/13 Word Count: 39,103 Published/Updated: 7/10/2013-1/12/2023

Notes: doodlegirll is another one with a collection of fic. She goes back quite a ways, and she's experimented with a lot of different styles over the years! This re-vamp of the non-canon sequel is more recent and action-focused. I have an affinity for it in particular bc I love me some whump ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

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Battlefield by SunRise19 [ ff.net ]

After Pocahontas II. It is often said you can't have life both ways, no matter how you wish it so. No one expects a battle of inner desires and words to be started during a ball. When the lines are drawn, can one foolish act be enough to make peace? PLZ RR! For HC247…COMPLETE

Tags: Romance/Drama Rating: T Chapters: 3/3 Word Count: 11,000 Published/Updated: 10/1/2018-1/1/2019

Notes: fCUk the writing in this one is so good! I'm a little [a lot] obsessed with the way John is written in particular. And SunRise has a TON more fic; there's a little something for everyone on their page, so be sure to check it out!

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Painting with the wind by Psyche Blue [ ff.net ]

A series of one shots following the second film, exploring the lives of John Smith and Pocahontas. Like the film, it is loosely based on historical events.

Tags: Romance/Angst Rating: T Chapters: 42/42 Word Count: 20,379 Published/Updated: 2/14/2013-3/3/2013

Notes: *deep breath* aaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *deep breath* When they say angst they Mean It, but it's WORTH it. The story is intense and so beautifully written, I can't recommend this one enough (although, if you need a happy ending for P/JS...you can always stop a chapter short of the end and Pretend :'D)

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Meeting His Match by RhapsodyinB [ ff.net ]

John enjoys being a carefree bachelor until someone causes him to rethink his lifestyle. His version of the classic.

Tags: Romance Rating: T Chapters: 2/2 Word Count: 4,897 Published/Updated: 11/21/2012-11/28/2012

Notes: As the summary implies, this is a John-centric lil character study. A heartstring-tugger, with a dash of canon-divergence.

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Choosing Her Own Path by Lahiwe [ ff.net ]

Pocahontas never thought she'd be able to listen like her mother had. The gift of understanding was just that, and it hadn't been given to her. But when she meets a man from across the sea, she learns that the gift is more a part of her than she knows.

Tags: Romance/Adventure Rating: T Chapters: 9/9 Word Count: 13,294 Published/Updated: 1/2/2012

and,

The Collected Writings of Captain John Smith by Lahiwe[ ff.net ]

It's been a while since Thomas Ryan has had anything to do with the New World. Still, memories of it have never left him. Five years after his return to England, however, he receives a strange parcel and a letter from none other than his old friend, John Smith. Read the story of Pocahontas from Captain Smith's perspective-perhaps you'll learn things you never knew you never knew.

Tags: Romance/Adventure Rating: T Chapters: 10/10 Word Count: 32,124 Published/Updated: 6/9/2012-12/31/2014

Notes: I included these two fics together because they're really a two-part series. They're both wonderful character-focused fics I just adore.

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Disney's Pocahontas: an extended retelling by best obsessed [ ff.net ]

A retelling of Disney's Pocahontas, now complete. The idea is to see if a serious treatment of the whole story can work. Disclaimer: though some of the characters are my own, most were given their present form by the Disney Corporation.

Tags: Romance/Adventure Rating: T Chapters: 25/25 Word Count: 110,703 Published/Updated: 4/12/2009-5/29/2009

Notes: This is an EPIC and, if I were to pick, like, a 'Citizen Kane' of P/JS fic, it would be this one. Basically, it's an expansion on the world of the film, and reframes the story a little more realistically. It's got EVERYTHING. It's got a deep study of both leads, complex political maneuvering, John Smith's Pretty People Problems (obsessed with this), gay lil Thomas having a Lot to deal with, Pocahontas being smarter than everyone, and romanceeeeeee. *muah* c'e bella.

Incomplete Fics:

Glory to Glory by pearl037 [ ff.net | Ao3 ]

When John Smith returns to England, Pocahontas is left as the mediator between the settlers and her people. When a bad growing season forces them to cease trading, the new captain will stop at nothing to ensure the survival of his colony. Meanwhile, England prepares for war. Multi-perspective. All rights belong to Disney and history. Part XIII is up!

Tags: Adventure/Romance Rating: T Chapters: 14/? Word Count: 42,731 Published/Updated: 4/6/2019-6/22/2022

Notes: There's some wonderful characterization in this, and an excellent exploration of grief that just gets me in the gut. It's more-or-less an alternate sequel, and builds up the setting around both the denizens of Jamestown and John's gang of fugitives (queen behavior).

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Burning Bright by typewriter33 [ ff.net ]

This is a continuation from a "Pocahontas" fanfiction 'The Burning' published in 1999. He had never dared hope to see her alive and laughing, vibrant and beautiful. T/M

Tags: None Rating: T Chapters: 5/? Word Count: 21,349 Published/Updated: 7/30/2020-7/2/2023

Notes: I'm not sure where the predecessor of this fic is (although I'll continue to try). It's a rare modern AU, with a twist. You can piece together what happened before the fic, and the intensity of the universe it happens in. To keep in line with the setting, Pocahontas has a different name, which can be jarring, but once you get past it the premise is interesting and the story, compelling.

Honorable Mention:

The Magic of Hogwarts by orphan_account [ Ao3 ]

"The wall clock reads fifteen minutes till eleven. The newspapers indicate that today is the first of September. King’s Cross Station is bustling... Here our fairytales begin." Excerpt from Prologue. Betaed by the lovely and amazing Crystal (niuniujiaojiao). Please read the notes at the beginning of this fic. I will eventually update.

Tags: Disney/Harry Potter Universe Crossover, Modern Setting, Mentions of Underage Sexuality [see Author's Notes abt this], More Tags to be had Rating: T Chapters: 21/27 Word Count: 112,028 Published/Updated: 4/11/2016-1/10/2020

Notes: I didn't include any crossovers in the main list, because I hadn't really broken into that set of fic, yet. But I felt this one deserved a spot on the list. It's a wide, wide fic, and includes interpretations of a TON of Disney characters. I included this because the Pocahontas/John Smith subplot absolutely fucking wrecked me, and I needed to share. The last update the fic got threw me in the back of a van and beat me with an aluminum baseball bat. This fic is unfinished as of now, but even if it's never updated again, it's worth a read. Just be sure to read all of the author's notes!

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mockscreens · 2 years

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please like/reblog if you save!

more disney lockscreens here!

#disney #disney lockscreens #disney wallpapers #disneyedit #beauty and the beast #beauty and the beast 1991 #belle #prince adam #belle x adam #the beast #cinderella #cinderella 1950 #peter pan #peter pan 1953 #john darling #pocahontas #pocahontas 1995 #john smith

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disneymbti · 1 year

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can you pls do pocahontas & john smith?

Hi there, sweetie! I really hope you like this a lot!

Pocahontas' MBTI Type, Big Three and Enneagram Type

MBTI Type: ISFP [The Adventurer]

ISFP types need plenty of personal space. Though they enjoy building connections with people, they need alone time to think and recharge.

They are observant, especially focusing on the details more than the overall view. They live in the present and tend to base decisions on what they can see right now.

Adventurers also prioritize emotion when making decisions. They prefer to follow what feels right.

They don't like schedules, but instead prefer to keep their options open. They are adaptable, spontaneous, and like to challenge the need for strict rules.

Big Three: Aquarius Sun, Aquarius Moon and Libra Rising

Aquarius Sun: Aquarius is ruled by Uranus and Saturn, which makes them seek out unique ways to problem-solve and to approach life. They're known to be intellectual and innovative.

Aquarius Moon: Logic or emotion? Why not both. The Aquarius Moon integrates logic with sentimentality in order to attain a deep understanding of their inner lives.

Libra Rising: Finding balance in life is essential for Libra risings, who prefer things to be even-kneeled and civil.

Enneagram Type: 9w8 [The Advisor]

Basic Fear: Nine wing eights are afraid of being separated from the world. They avoid this by preventing conflict; however, their eight wing also encourages them to be assertive, which can create an internal tension.

Basic Desire: Their basic desire is to be internally balanced. They seek to be at peace with themselves and others.

Advisors defend themselves by numbing their negative emotions through routine and repetitive patterns. They avoid facing their own internal struggles by distracting themselves in this way.

John Smith's MBTI Type, Big Three and Enneagram Type

MBTI Type: ESTP [The Entrepreneur]

ESTP types like being around large groups of people, whether they know them or not. They prefer being out in action to being at home by themselves.

They are very observant and detail-oriented people. They are practical and realistic, focusing on the here-and-now.

Entrepreneurs make decisions based in logic. They care about more about following the truth than making other people happy.

They avoid schedules, preferring to make plans as they go. They are less aware of time and enjoy being adaptable.

Big Three: Sagittarius Sun, Gemini Moon and Aries Rising

Sagittarius Sun: Sagittarius is governed by the expansive planet Jupiter, and is known for a free-spirited, globe-trotting, philosophical mindset — and wild streak.

Gemini Moon: Ruled by winged messenger, Mercury, Gemini Moons enjoy discussing their complex feelings with others in order to gain a mindful and clear emotional perspective.

Aries Rising: Aries ascendants are known as the go-getters of the zodiac. They don’t let anything stand in their way of achieving their personal goals.

Enneagram Type: 7w8 [The Opportunist]

Basic Fear: Seven with an eight wing fear being deprived. They want to pursue opportunities and avoid being controlled by schedules.

Basic Desire: Their basic desire is to content and satisfied. They love experiencing the world by travelling and going to parties.

Opportunists defend themselves by justifying others' negative emotions and rationalizing away bad feelings.

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