#trans women are included when i say women btw and trans men are included when i say men

[thisismisogynoir]

I love it when women hate men. I love it when women are allowed to vent to each other about how horrible and creepy men are. I love it when women form friendships with and prioritize each other over relationships with men(whether they're attracted to them or not). I love it when women put men dni in their bios and on their nude photos and on posts on their blogs. I love it when women refuse to mollycoddle and accommodate entitled male feelings with "but this doesn't mean I hate all men, I know a few men who are great, I love my father/sons/brothers/uncles/male cousins/guy friends" I love it when women complain about men WITHOUT "not all men" being a disclaimer. I love it when women avoid socializing with/refuse to be around/befriend/get close to men because they know men can't be trusted. I love it when women make "kill all men" jokes. I love it when women offer absolutely no concern or care for men's feelings and if their misandry offends men whatsoever because why should we, men are the oppressor class who have raped and killed and abused us and kept us as subjugated as second-class citizens for millennia, they regularly mistreat us and the women in their own marginalized communities still every single day and make this world so much harder and more awful for us to be in, and if we choose to hate them and not spare them any sympathy then so be it, and I don't just mean "men as a class" either, you can be a woman who doesn't want to have anything to do with any man on an individual basis and completely cuts off men from her personal life too and ykw I will love and fucking support you in that because men deserve absolutely NOTHING from us. If they're so tough and strong then they can handle it just like they can handle being lonely. If you are a woman who hates men, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE A LESBIAN AND/OR A TRANS WOMAN, then just know that I love you. I love you, I support you, and you are safe here.

#was going to make a post about how much i hate that women aren't allowed to hate their oppressors but i decided to spin it into something #positive instead #this is supposed to be the feminist site that makes reddit mgtow piss their baby diapers so let's go back to despising men and not coddling #their feelings and let's dye our hair blue while we're at it #i am so tired of this new wave of guilt-tripping and gaslighting women who hate men and don't trust or want to be around them #i hate how we're made into villainesses or the problematic ones for not valuing them in our lives or for wanting to guard ourselves or be #safe from our oppressors #and i'm tired of people who don't know the first thing about feminism being like 'BUT THAT'S TERF RHETORIC WHAT ABOUT X MINORITY MEN' #guess what women can also be x minority that you're trying to protect the men of and we get to hate men too #trans women are included when i say women btw and trans men are included when i say men #if anyone has the right to hate men more than anybody else it's trans women esp trans lesbians because they put up with so much shit #from men that even cis women do not and they especially know how vile men are behind closed doors #so #terfs fuck off #radfems fuck off #and if anybody tries to make this post more appeasing to men or 'not all men's this post you are getting blocked and hit with a hammer #feminism #misogyny #sexism #patriarchy #tw men #tw rape #tw abuse #misandry #terfs dni #radfems dni #feminists need to go back to being scary and unpalatable for men none of this 'but some of them are good!' bullshit #men are entitled to nothing from us #and if you try to prove me wrong then you are just proving my point if you have nothing good to say then simply keep scrolling #ok? ok.

[alongtidesoflight]

i haven't talked trans stuff with irl people in a while so when i tell you today was exhausting

#sat in my class minding my own business when the entire class started shitting on trans women #how to argue with these ppl without breaching stealth #i don't pass well as a woman anymore so i'm assuming these people think i'm a very butch lesbian or whatever #no one's uncomfortable with me being in the women's toilets but as soon as a trans woman steps in there all hell breaks loose #hypothetical trans woman in this case btw because there aren't any trans girls in my class but my language recently started using a #more gender-neutral approach to speaking and added an nb gender marker to job descriptions and passports #so of course every language teacher under the sun has to complain about it #and that turned into an unhinged 30 minutes of my teacher pretending to be a trans woman but actually acting like a very flamboyant #drag queen getting ready to bother some ladies in the women's bathroom #and i have never been more uncomfortable in my life #lucky for ME i don't have to attend that class often so i think i'll only head in there for any exams that might come up #transphobia tw #adding this one for the girlies following me #rant time sorry #this is the second time a teacher tried to get some kinda anti-trans approval out of me and i don't know what they're trying to achieve #here but they're barking up the wrong tree here #the m/f/nb gender marker does exactly what it says btw whatever marker's in your passport dictates where you can go and nb bathrooms are #kinda welcoming to anyone men and women included #and all of this is a discussion on its own #but the starting point of this argument for these people was that trans women and trans men can only use nb bathrooms because #they're not 'real' men or women and where to even start here you know #in the end while i was arguing my teacher told me that i don't know what i'm talking about but 'every other man' in this class #knows exactly what he means #cut me off and that was that #it's not about winning or losing here but i think he realised that i was using arguments that he just didn't feel like talking about rn #so i just ended getting cut off and talked over and i wasn't feeling like #raising my voice but it's just uncomfortable to know what this class would have been thinking of me if i hadn't #decided to go by my agab in this evening course #by the way the very first day i attended this course i showed another guy to the women's bathroom because the men's bathroom was closed for #repairs

[therevengeoffrankenstein]

😒

#myevilposts #sighing so loud. #g-d i'm so pissed off. i hate misandrists soooo much i especially hate when they deny that that's what they are. #or act like they are somehow valid bc one (1) man was abusive towards them. #like honey my mom was both physically and mentally abusive to me and i don't hate women. it's very easy to not be a dick actually. #once again. what they should actually be angry about is the systemic issue of the patriarchy or their single abusive man. #not men as a whole. like it's so easy. #it's actually so easy to just hate shitty men and not men as a whole. btw. #also i can't believe people think my struggles to be included in discussions about pregnancy due to uninclusive language #(which is very very much a trans issue.) isn't real just because i'm a man. #honey. i have a womb. i can in theory get pregnant. i don't want to be misgendered and excluded from a conversation #that literally fucking applies to me and is important to my physical and mental health and well being. just because i'm a man. #i am being oppressed in this situation. that is what transandrophobia is. #like is the fact that people are calling pregnancy and abortion 'women's issues' and i'm like 'hey. those things apply to me #and i'm a trans man. please use inclusive language that doesn't misgender and/or exclude me.' and people are #like 'ugh shut up you're literally a man. you should deal with being excluded from this conversation. #that literally fucking applies to you and being misgendered by our language.' actually like progressive? #like do you think it's progressive to say that me getting misgendered and excluded from a conversation due to #cisnormativity is fine. because oh i'm a man. men aren't ever treated like shit ever. #when i am quite literally being shat on for being a man in this situation. despite it literally including me. #transphobia tw #like don't you all literally see that what you're saying is that misgendering is ok just because i'm a man? #and that my having to deal with pregnancy and abortion is invalid? just because i'm a man. and acting like that's a progressive thing #to say??? like literally stoppp. you are literally telling me. who is trans. and being oppressed bc i am trans. #that the transphobia that is specifically targeting me. bc i am trans. isn't real. bc i am a trans MAN specifically. #and like yes. i experience transandrophobia in real life. it is not just an 'online' issue bc no form of transphobia is.

[orkbutch]

So, I'm not really in the weeds of Transgender Discourse on the internet (I have a life and also care about my mental health) but I've seen something discussed here about trans masculinity and I wanna talk about it.

I'm very masculine. I'm butch, I'm trans masc, I've always wanted to be masculine and I feel most comfortable when I'm presenting as such. Without much effort or any intention on my part I am read as a cis man day to day. Because I don't present more fem, in queer spaces I am read and recieved as a man, maybe trans, probably into other men. People do not even consider if I'm a butch lesbian unless there's Significant context indicating it. Because of this I'm viewed through 'Man Lens'; It feels a different if I say 'bitch', if I talk about my attraction to women. I don't get smiled at, people put physical distance between me and them as much as possible.

This is familiar for a lot of trans masculine people and trans men that aren't androgynous/fem leaning in their style, and it is an upsetting change to happen. It makes us feel judged or misunderstood to suddenly be causing this wariness in others; it feels prejudiced. I've seen people putting words to this like transmisandry. This is something they want to lessen in their communities, so they don't have to experience this anymore.

Now, here's my opinion part: That's not going to happen. You cannot tackle the "problem" of people responding to your masculinity with wariness. They aren't controlling the wariness, they can't. More importantly, their wariness toward masculinity and what registers in their brain as "man-like" is well founded. It's based in lifetimes of experiences and trauma that has told them men can be very unsafe to be around, and that is true. Most men are cis, and cis men are the most threatening thing in this world to non-cis men. They are usually* socially privileged above others, more likely to inflict violence, more likely to abuse and murder others, are typically physically more powerful than others. Everyone thats not a cis man DEEPLY internalises a very rational wariness of men, and masculine presentation as an extension. Especially men that are strangers. (*This is of course different when we consider intersections of race, colonialism, classism, ect. But globally this generalisation is still pretty accurate.)

Honestly, I don't think this wariness towards masculine presentation is something thats useful or realistic to challenge. Like many internalised processes it's probably a good idea to examine it and consider its usefulness, but I think it'd be easy to conclude that it is a useful wariness for people to have. Women have lots of reasons to be wary around men, including the unique threats of transmisogyny. Queer and gender deviant men have lots of reasons to be wary around men. This is The Reality of patriarchy.

Personally, the place I've come to with how women and queer people react to my masculinity (which is not entirely negative btw, the wariness is just one aspect) is that... I understand their wariness. I have it too, toward those my brain assumes are cis men. I cannot control how they feel or what they think about me. I can only be respectful to others and to myself and live my life. I flag my butchness where I can, I make my gender clear to those it matters to, and the rest I accept as largely beyond my influence. All of us have to do this in some places in our lives.

Even though my masculinity makes other queers wary, I have lots of friends! I've had no real trouble dating or finding intimacy. Initial wariness is just that. Once you understand each other, break the barrier, its usually settled. For anyone who finds my masculinity so offputting that we can't break the barrier, I'm glad neither of us put each other through that discomfort. I understand where a fear like that comes from. I will still hold community with them because that's what solidarity entails.

Anyway thats my ramble about masculinity in queer community, good bye until another. who knows how long

#back on the tumblr diary #personal #edited the section about women having reasons to fear men and transmisogyny; poorly phrased lol.

[olderthannetfic]

Am I allowed to hate crime people if it's hatred of them being really really fucking stupid and up their own fucking ass? Story the fuck time: I said something about men, just generally a positive message about dudes. Because men are fucking cute. Ok? Fuck off.

And someone got mad about it. "What about trans men?" (THEY'RE NOT A TRANS MAN BTW!!!) I said men. MEN. You see that second word? trans MEN? Yes? MEN! Men are cute. Men are men, there's literally no fucking need for me to differentiate by saying "men and trans men." if my message is about men being cute. MEN are MEN.

That person keeps fucking insisting I was trying to exclude trans men. Or that I should know that some people avoid specifying the trans, because they are trans exclusionary.

I ask if they would specify trans men, because I feel like constantly adding "men and trans men" is just pointlessly othering when it's a message like "MEN ARE CUTE!"

No, because they aren't transphobic, but they don't know about me.

YOU! YOU NO BRAIN.

Can people stop that shit? Can they stop with that "I'm the main character, you're the NPC." shit? Can they stop assuming that everyone around them is secretly trying to be two-faced bitches? Can they stop showing how blatantly they themselves have issues with, IN THIS CASE, trans men just being included in the term "MEN!" without needing to be added on as an extra to make super sure they're also included, even though trans men are LITERALLY JUST MEN???? Do you think I'd be on a fucking queer/LGBTQIA+ friendly server if I was a fucking transphobic bitch? You think I'd literally have a history on this fucking server talking and positively engaging with the trans people on the server? You fucking think that the biggest act of "mask off" transphobia would be a message that's just MEN ARE CUTE??????? While we're at it, women are fucking cute as well. Everyone good fucking night. I'm a hoe.

--

[fox-steward]

oh by the way i bet you’re so scared of trans women that pass as cis. oh NO i thought that woman was hot but it turns out she has a PENIS!! nobody can blur the lines of gender because what if i get a crush on someone i shouldn’t ): because attraction can’t be fluid or blur the lines of gender at all D:

nobody’s asking you to date people with dicks if you don’t want to jfc just stop invalidating lesbians who do date trans women. stop invalidating lesbians who are trans women. keep trans people out of your fucking mouth for a second. reevaluate your beliefs for a second maybe.

is sex really that important? are people’s genitals at birth really that important? are intersex people irrelevant because they’re only 1% of the population (79 million people)? you say you believe trans women are female but then you say lesbians don’t date trans women. are they female lite to you? Can you define who lesbians can date in a way that excludes all trans people and includes all cis women?

i've seen feminine men and thought, "wow she's hot," only to realize i'm looking at a cute gay guy. attraction disappears. i thought that person was a woman, was attracted to who i thought was a woman, and upon finding out i was wrong, the attraction fades. i am not afraid of this. this is not a scary thing, it is simply a real thing.

no one is asking me personally to date people with dicks, they're just asking me to share lesbian-only spaces with them where they can walk up and hit on me when the point of lesbian spaces is that i'm free from that imposition, and if i want to decline i have to pretend it's for some other reason, not because they're men; they're asking me to pretend we're the same and we just aren't. no one is saying transwomen aren't people worthy of spaces of their own, people who love and are attracted to them, we're just saying they're not entitled to OUR spaces or OUR love and attraction and we shouldn't have to play pretend that they are.

you tell on yourself with the word "invalidate," because real things are not destroyed by invalidation. you know what happens when someone doesn't know, doesn't realize, or doesn't believe i'm a lesbian? absolutely nothing. i remain a woman attracted only to women. invalidation only affects imposters. if invalidation is affecting transwomen who are pretending to be lesbians it is because deep down they know they just aren't; they're atypical heterosexual (or bisexual) men, but there is no fathomable universe where any man, even one with a special attachment to his concept of womanhood, is a lesbian.

god, YES sex is important. it is one of the main organizing factors of the world and it is especially important to women. don't trot out intersex people when it's convenient for you to make a shitty point (and to do so poorly, btw). intersex people are male or female and their conditions cause actual health impacts in their lives, they are not your convenient puppets and the vast, vast majority of trans people are not intersex so knock it the fuck off.

i have NEVER said i believe transwomen are female. trans women are necessarily male, unless you think it's possible or okay for a "cis" woman to "identify" as a transwoman? lesbians are females who love and are attracted exclusively to other females. it's very easy.

congratulations on figuring out your bisexuality.

#radical feminism #radfem #detrans #gender critical #detransition #intersex #transgender #asked #answered #anon

[ventbloglite]

Some of you really need to step back a little bit and acknowledge how ignorant you are towards how misogyny affects trans mascs and how you yourself may be perpetrating said misogyny when speaking ill of trans mascs.

Which is not something you should be doing at all, fyi. You can talk about individual shitty trans mascs and certain community issues you dislike which involve or are perpetrated by trans mascs without just being transphobic towards trans mascs in general.

So many times I've seen the sentient of 'AFAB's have it really easy, everyone accepts AFAB's as trans, everyone loves AFAB trans people, the world caters to you, there is basically no problems for you if you're AFAB unlike AMAB folk' shown in a variety of ways from a variety of people including just outright saying it. Not to mention the belitting of trans masc experiences with transphobia and misogyny + the way those interact because they identify as men even though transphobes still consider them to be women and don't give a shit about their actual gender.

A main crux of transphobia (though many other factors which result in hating us come into play, too many to go into now) is that trans people are seen as and treated as their AGAB and punished for not identifying as it or portraying it 'correctly' by society. So tell me why so many seem to 'forget' about how misogyny impacts trans masculine people. Could it be because you believe that advocating for trans women and trans femmes and fighting transmisogyny somehow must involve being transphobic towards trans men due to that radfem influence you've absorbed? The world will never reach gender equality of any kind if everything is 'men versus women' so can we just fucking not bring that into trans spaces please.

Examples!

I saw recently a post which perfectly pointed out the potential risks associated with someone considered 'male' growing out her hair but OP clearly knew absolutely nothing about the same risks associated with someone deemed 'female' cutting his hair. Instead of not making that post or doing some research, OP thus assumed there weren't really any risks likely due to already believing that AFAB trans people have it easy.

The ignorance! Misogyny heavily impacts the way hair is treated on those perceived as women (including body hair) and women/those perceived as women have no end of people policing what they can and can't do with their bodies often taking things to the absolute extreme to do so. Short hair on woman may seem 'more accepted' but AFAB people of any gender could quickly tell you multiple situations where it's not and results in the same violence, abuse, homo(lesbo/butch)phobia and yes possibly even death depending on the situation even if you still identify as a woman. Pretending this doesn't happen is straight up misogyny btw.

'AFAB's pass easily by doing basically nothing' is another frequent one which makes me laugh. 'Passing' for most trans people is so situational and so dependent on what you do or don't do to strictly conform to gender stereotypes if you're even able to do that at all. To suggest that the world ignores feminine gender markers the moment someone's hair is short and their chest appears mostly flat ignores both the complexity of how humans perceive gender and how misogyny comes into play whenever a woman/perceived woman shows any masculinity let alone maleness. Considering the same misogyny comes into play frequently against trans women you'd think it'd be easy to remember.

This general sentiment of 'Being born with a vagina means your life is easy and everything you do will be loved and supported because society adores you. You don't and will never have any real problems, not like anyone born with a penis.' isn't magically okay and absolutely super different to when misogynists say it about cis women because you're using AGAB language and cite 'because you're men and blah blah patriarchy' as the actual reason you're saying it. It's very clearly same shit different coat of paint. The pool is there, your toes are in, stop preparing to dive for Gods sake.

#transandrophobia #anti transmasculinity #transgender

[t4transsexual]

why do you identify with "lesbian" if you say you're a man. A man can't be a lesbian, i don't understand it.

The whole lesbian concept excludes men bc it has nothing to do with men. Lesbian is women loving women, and if you identify as a man, i don't understand how you can identify w the lesbian community as well.

like this isba genuine question, I'd like to listen to your explanation bc im genuinely confused!

trans men, and any trans person really, cannot exist on the same binary cisgender people exist on. the binary was not made with trans people in mind, to be trans and to change your sex (which isnt limited to bottom surgery btw), would be inherently nonbinary, simply because the binary does not accommodate for trans people

beyond that, trans men dont have the same rights privileges and power that a cis man would have. meaning that while a trans man IS a man, he is not a cis man, and thus cannot experience male privilege, or the systemic power that comes with being a cis man

so we can conclude from that two things. one, trans people are inherently nonbinary. while not every trans person identified as nonbinary, the act of transitioning, socially and medically, is an inherently nonbinary act. i personally choose to identify as nonbinary to deal with the distress of people forcing me into the cis man category when i am fundementally different from them. now that we have concluded that the act of transitioning is nonbinary, let me address that: trans men have always been included in lesbianism. the communities are not seperate. the historical definition of lesbian has included gender diverse people as well as women, and trans men are still gender diverse

beyond that; a trans man identifying as a lesbian is not the same as a cis man identifying as a lesbian. the ideas that trans men are men and that trans men are NOT cis men can both be true. trans men who are attracted to women have more societally in common with lesbians (especially genderqueer lesbians) than cishet men. yes, trans men identify as straight all the time. however, if a trans man wants to identify as a lesbian, who are we to deny him? he isnt a cis man, hes not a threat to lesbianism or to the queer community.

faq:

"wouldnt identifying as a lesbian and a trans man be invalidating?"

a: different trans men have different opinions for themselves and their gender. some trans men choose to identify as straight/heterosexual, some trans men choose to identify as lesbians. it just depends on the person, however, if a trans man truly felt invalidated by the lesbian label, he just wouldn't use it. you dont get to assign rules on how a trans man chooses to identify, and you don't know him better than he knows himself

"what IS a lesbian then?"

a: the historical defintion of a lesbian is any gender diverse individual who likes women and/or gender diverse people. however, every lesbian can tell you something different. i know lesbians who only date binary women. i know lesbians who are exclusively t4t. i know lesbians who are femme4butch and date trans men who are butches. someones personal definition of their own lesbianism doesnt invalidate yours, and vice versa

"whats next, a CIS man identifying as a lesbian to cause trouble?"

a: and what if the world was made of pudding? trans men are not cis men, and to believe such is wishful thinking at best, and ultimately distressing to trans people. beyond that, i raise a counterargument of, what if we let trans people use the bathroom of their preferred gender? what would happen if a cis person used the opposite genders bathroom to cause trouble? the fact of the matter is, punishing trans people who are trying to live for the hypothetical cis person doing something wrong is transphobic and also stupid

"evan, i dont WANT to date a male lesbian/lesbian on t! what does this mean for my lesbianism?"

a: absolutely nothing! date who you want! you actually dont have to be attracted to every single person who is a lesbian! i know im not! youre allowed your preferences. i do know for a fact that some lesbians, especially under the trans/genderqueer umbrella are really into trans male lesbians and lesbians on t, but that does NOT mean that you have to be! once again, nobody elses personal definition of lesbianism can invalidate YOUR personal definition of lesbianism. im ALL ABOUT doing what you want!

#long post #boy lesbians #boy lesbian #boysbian #he/him lesbian #trans lesbian #answering this in good faith even tho i doubt it was asked the same way #just bc ive been meaning to make this post

[kimyoonmiauthor]

What are you writing? Queer joy and Queer rage in white spaces? And other PoC queer musings.

So basically I'm writing Queer rage for one novel, which covers a wide range of subjects besides queerness, such as most of the LGBTQIA things, and racism, ableism, disablism, etc. And what does it exactly mean to be a feminist while doing those things?

That novel, when I describe it gets zero push back. It's issues everyone knows, though I challenge pretty deep on some of the more messy bits that probably won't make straight people happy. Doing call outs and call ins along the way... but I'm sure white feminists will have deep issues with it or whatever.

The novel I have the most pushback on, so far, is the queer joy one. It's not a white setting, but white queers are upset at me on several ways I do it. I said something on the order of, Nuke the European gender binary in an other world planet and be delighted at making cis people question their gender identity, and the white queers were upset at me and then went onto tone policing.

The thread went to hell, when really, I was writing a culture that's approximately East Asian (I studied vastly well for this)? And the European binary shouldn't figure into it, and people got super upset at the idea I would do this? But it's not as if white straight people haven't nuked the gender binary before.

There's Ursula Le Guin and Neil Gaiman for example.

Iunno, I did the due diligence as a NB PoC, and did look at queer history of East Asian countries and pulled from that, which has more Third gender acceptance across the board, and if you look, it's less sanitized.

Japan constantly, constantly plays with gender in ways that make my NB self fall in love. Even the straight authors play around with X-Gender, etc. Watase Yuu also played with it where a character wanted to become female in one of their lesser known manga. I loved that manga, BTW, because probably before I knew, it covered a lot of the feels I had, and some of the weirdness of gender for me.

Have you read Blue Wars? I mean, Sooo good. And a Cis person wrote it.

Besides that, there is also Go Go Princess. Gender squishy bisexual (at least, if not pan) delight it is. The Beauty Inside (I liked the movie more than the drama, but both are good). And a ton of media where there are gender body swaps. (I love those). And I mildly like the cross dressing ones–though we need more men dressing up as women too in non-threatening ways. (which white people also take umbrage to–cishet people dressing up as the opposite sex, how dare you--it's anti-trans. But it's part of the folktales of the countries I cited.) But I like the magical ones better. And no one flags it and goes, you know what this needs, the pain of trans medical surge– and hormones, because that's trans-ness and you're really disrespecting trans people by not including it. But it isn't... often ironically and to my delight of anti-terfness, it's a challenge about what? Sexism. Ha! We got ya!

And after a while, sometimes I feel like the categorization of Nonbinary itself in this confined white definition feels, iunno, limiting. But I also feel like I'm not allowed to say that out loud or something. I'm betraying my NB status. After all, all of the guides about nonbinary-ness are written for a white straight audience in mind, saying things like NBs will really mind if you talk about their assigned birth sex and it's a betrayal to NB status to talk about their assigned sex. And maybe *psst* write about them having *gasp* sex with body parts and how dare you? Oh, but don't forget the NB PoCs out there. But do default to They, even if the NB community doesn't feel evenly about this... because you see, you really, really need the cis audience out there to know this character is NB. Even if there are people out there that use he/him/his and she/her/hers. Mind the cis audience, folks, you need to be consistent.

And I know I'm not all of NB-dom here, but I don't particularly feel this way. I delighted in Ranma 1/2 before I knew I was NB, though it kinda missed out on that gooey part of NBness for me, where you feel like neither or mixed. But I'm not allowed to do this, even if Ranma 1/2 is a romance of sorts...

I'm more like, whatever I could get tomorrow I'd take it, type. I love, love media that challenges cissexism and cisness. But my opinions aren't reflected in the white writing guides about NBs. You have to be super careful and not laissez faire. How dare you want to write NB romance where you talk about sex changes? Don't you know the dysphoria and how disrespectful it is to talk about NB bodies? duhn duhn duhn, you betrayed all of NBdom by giving fuel to the transphobes by talking about *gasp* their assigned sex. What will the straight people think?

But I don't feel that way. Maybe because the rigidity found inherent in European gender systems isn't in East Asia as much. I mean the super strict to the point that people lose their sense of morality type of gender correction. So I kind of feel like I'm floating in this liminal space of needing to bend to some white ideal of what queerness needs to be while lusting really hard to be given the freedom to express what I want to show it to be because my ideas of gender are "wrong" and "anti-queer" when I am queer and am trying to express my ideas of queerness and joy in being queer but being told my version of queerness isn't white enough, and thus anti-queer?

How does that work exactly?

So in order to reorder the gender system to automatically include NBs, I decided to nuke the entire gender system, which meant I had to also rework the sexual orientation section as well because it depends a lot on cis-ness to work in a European model, and thus kicks out NBs, which NBs then complain about. No one remembers that people felt "betrayed" when Elliot Page came out as Trans? I wanted to rework the system so there wasn't anything like that. I wanted a more inclusive system that celebrated trans-ness, NBness and Queerness without this reshuffling effect. And this also upset people. But I'm telling you with the strength of my degree, sexual orientation hasn't worked the same over time either, and me wanting to basically turn this thing around *in a story* and rework the sexual orientation system along with the gender system also gets people really upset.

Neil Gaiman got it. His angels don't have sex organs, so... how can you call them "gay" or "Bi" when their bodies are effectively androgynous?

But PoC NB questioning the shape of things and wanting to remake a world to accept more NBness by reshaping this, in *fiction* somehow is a threat?

So this is where I am at.

I did a hand wave in my fiction world and allowed characters to do consensual changing of their sex. 'cause East Asian fiction, presently and historically doesn't mind that much (though out of the public eye most of the time of international fans.) But I also didn't want to somehow "erase" the transness with it. I wanted to be honest that even if they change their physical sex, that there is still trans-ness inherent in it. And people don't really want to talk about how sometimes transitioning can change your sexuality and sexual orientation, but I wanted to talk about it in a way that wasn't all doom and gloom and about how horrible and how it betrays this sense of sexual orientation and identity to stay one sexual orientation all your life–because you must, or you betray all of queerdom. (What if the straights find out?) Fuck, do I have to think about straight people when writing queer joy? Apparently queer people want to remind you about the straights.

And then I have effectively the equivalent of bi, pan, omni, poly, lesbians, and gays running around in the world, which I suppose people will label the characters as anyway, even if I recategorized the sexual orientation boxes to neatly fit NBs. I wanted to allow for sexual orientation fluidity as well, which often the labels of bi, etc don't allow. 'cause I'm one of those really liberal queers that like talking about how some people have split attractions to different genders and some people are more attracted to one gender over another, which doesn't mean they hate that gender outright, which then the queer community feels iffy about, but I'm like, bring it on. Let's talk about people who are attracted to all genders who are only attracted to other people who are attracted to all genders. Is it wrong? No. Why should it be? It's not fetishization.

I also nuked a lot of the Victorian idealism over sex because in my research, such prudishness to that degree was a later imposition and I wanted to be sex positive (as an ace too) and also not quite historically accurate. 'cause sex positivity isn't automatically anti-ace or anti-queer, though some writing guides seem to make it out to be. And I didn't want to impose European imperialism on a world that effectively has no white people and has more trade cooperatives than imperialism (because there is a bigger threat usually than that). (No gulf stream... and the planet is warmer too, so no really white people, which people really got upset about. Eat it. You get your all white worlds somehow, with an equator and no Gulf Stream which makes no sense, then I get to have a PoC-dominate world with actual astronomy and geography behind it.)

Still Ace, but recognizing Sex workers as valid people and that regulation is better than none is totally something I do. I write frankly about sex too, 'cause ummm... Aces write about sex. Aceness is limited, conditional or no sexual attraction. And some Aces who are sex repulsed, also love to write smut. So... but I'm also told that's not the correct aceness by people who aren't ace?

Am I not allowed to write romance as an aromantic either? Even if I've actually experienced romance before? 'cause guess what? Aros also have romance too.

And yeah, I wrote some aces and aros in. 'cause I can.

But apparently I'm not doing it right. It's too neat, it's too messy, it's too PoC and not white queer enough. What about those Victorian values of never talking about body parts by their correct name in a fit of sex shaming and secrecy? Why can't I write that?

I didn't know Queer joy could be so, so decisive an issue. How dare you take away my label in a fictional world so you can include NBs in that world?

Wait until they see how I nuked the adoption system using historical cases... Ah, then they'll be really upset.

BTW, I'd 100% be down for a Lesbian or a Gay planet. Or a Pan paradise... (hopefully done better than Orville and Star Trek?)

#nonbinary #story theory #queer identity #queer community #queer identity in PoC spaces #diversity writing

[roxanneslosteyes]

Full DNI

Proshippers/Comshippers/Darkshippers (Whatever proshippers are now called)

p3d0s (this includes L0l¡/sh0t@ likers/supporters)

Z00files

Fatphobic people

Ai artists/supporters

NFT supporters/likers

Wallyest aka Appleest DNI and selfest shippers in general (It's makes me uncomfortable)

Transphobic people (This includes terfs)

Homophobic people (This includes Lesphobic, Aphobic, Biphobic etc)

Racist people

Swerfs

N@z¡ supporters/N@z!s

Inotreal supporters

Ablest people

Pro Capitalism

Pro patriarchy

Anti abortion people/Pro lives

People are anti an religious that isn't Christian (example: Anti Jews, Muslims, Pagans, people who believes in Satanism, etc. These are about people who hate religion because they can not about people who hate religion due to religious trauma!)

misogynists

zionists

Incest likers/supporters

fetishizers (the ones who fetishize race, Sexuality, Disabled ppl, People's trauma, gender, bodytypes, etc aka seeing groups of people as Objects not humans.)

Sexist ppl

Fatshamers

Slvtshamers

Victim blamers

People who hate on harmless ships (Such as Oc x canon, canon x canon, rarepairs, Self inserts x canon etc.)

• Also Helluva boss/Hazbin fans who have to make a big fuss over valid criticism or try defend the things that being criticism.

• Any toxic fans really in any fandom

Bigoted people!

People who make traumatised people's trauma as gender wars (Example: Mostly **from what I seen btw** the male fake allies of male trauma of any type survivors saying 'It's happens to men too' under a female or AFAB person of the same trauma video about their trauma)

Anti-Kink people

Fujios (This is under fetishizers who fetishizes groups of people since they fetishize gay people.)

People who forgave yan dev and people who support him

People who support Dream (The dsmp member)

People who romanticizes true crime

People who treat real victims of trauma as circus animals and not humans

MERF (Male exclusionary radfem/Radical "Feminist", I looked this up and many sources say its an alternative term for terfs who are Transphobic to trans women, they see trans women as men.)

The "Misandrists" who are just bigot women who use misandrist as a safe guard for their hate (I don't think these people have terms unlike with feminism who has terms for bigot women who use feminist as a safe guard for their hate. I saw two Transphobia "Misandrists" against a trans woman and amab non binary person, An Afab victim blamer "Misandrist" and "Women cannot be harmful to people" "Misandrists". All these "Misandrists" I mentioned are just bigot people who are using "Misandrist" to spread their biogot hate)

Lovelypeaches fans/stans

White supremacy people

Wilbur Soot (The YouTuber from Dream (Minecraft YTer's group) Supporters/forgivers

white feminists (White Feminists are basically a "Feminist" version of White

transmisogyny people (I didn't know this exists until recently)

Georgenotfound supporters/apologist

I should really explain three things of my DNI list.

What's Terf?

A terf is short for Trans-exclusionary radical "feminism"/Trans gender exclusionary "Radfems"It's pretty self explanatory, they are "Feminists" who are Transphobic.

What's a Swerf?

A swerf is short for sex workers exclusionary radical "Feminism"/Sex Worker exclusionary "Radfems".

Swerfs are the sister of terfs in a way.

Yes the sex work industry and its sub industries have serious problems and exploitive however the sex work industry and its sub industries aren't the only industries with serious problems and exploitative, all industries in this world have serious problems and exploitative due to all industries are under Capitalism and Patriarchy's control.

Swerfs also have this black and white view of sex workers and clients, Swerfs think all sex workers are straight women and all clients are straight men when in reality sex workers can be any gender and Sexuality same with the clients.

Swerfs also think sex work is the reason for women objection (when it's Patriarchy's fault) and sex work is only for "Male gaze" (Which doesn't make sense as male clients aren't the only clients due there are clients that are all genders)

The time i know about the male gaze fits into sex work more on the heterosexual men side since well that's literally what male gaze applies too, gross Heterosexual men (I'm talking about misogynistic straight men who objectify women)

However Swerfs only use it to fit in "Every sex worker is a woman and every client is a man." View they have while completely forgetting about lesbian SWers, gay SWers, Bi Swers and other Sexuality outside of straight SWers and clients. Queer clients and Swers exist.

Swerfs also blame sex workers for the gross crimes of men and inappropriate behaviour against women (Again Patriarchy's fault) **FROM WHAT I SEEN**

They also blame sex workers for holding up the patriarchy and blame them for fetishisation of groups of people who get fetishized instead of the fetishizers and Patriarchy.

They also paint SW as a literal crime. When SW and that crime is VERY different

(SW is legal and the crime takes place in countries where SW is illegal.)

What are anti-kink people?

Anti kink people are people who don't understand kinks at all but only know the serious harmful stereotypes of kinks. They don't want to learn about kinks, they want kinks to be illegal due to the harmful stereotypes against kinks they know of since these harmful stereotypes have filled up their brain so they assumed all kinks are like their harmful stereotypes counterparts

Also they confused kinks with Fetishisation.

(Note: Fetishisation isn't about fetishes, Fetishisation is about people seeing groups of people such as survivors of literally crimes, POC, disabled people, women etc as objects not as humans.)

When both aren't the same thing.

The same way Swerfs want SW to be illegal and Terfs want transgender to be illegal too.

Due to

Swerfs treat sex workers as subhumans and the cause of everything bad

Terfs treat Trans people (Mostly trans women) as sub humans

Anti kink people treat kinks as an abomination sub group to sex and the cause of every thing bad.

Because of the Transphobic ideas, SWphobic (idk if I can say the actual word on here) ideas and anti kinks ideas against those people (Sex workers and Transgender people) and that group (kinks)

#dni #dnilist

[betaoctillery]

i dont follow ppl that dont support mspec lesbians btw. not only is it bullshit gender/sexuality policing but its ahistorical as shit when bisexuals & lesbians were almost indisguishable from one another until a very specific point in the 1970s when terfs and political lesbians began dividing the community by excluding anyone who had ANY association to perceived masculinity, which included trans women (bcus terfs thought of them as men), bi women for sleeping with men, butches for expressing masculinity, and women of color for racist reasons which posited that they arent feminine/women bcus many dont look/act/talk exactly like cis/het white women.

at any rate, the current accepted definition for the term lesbian is inherently bisexual! everyone says it means “attraction to women and nonbinary ppl” (which is nb-phobic outright ANYWAYS by lumping ALL nonbinary ppl with women -- this is what ppl are criticizing when they say we’re treated as “women-lite”) so if youre not being a nb-phobic asshat, you then have to acknowledge that woman and nonbinary are different genders, thereby making lesbianism a fundamentally bisexual identity as it includes to attraction to two or more genders. 

like think critically for a moment. what about a bigender lesbian who feels like they are both a man and a woman? do you personally get to decide, do you personally get to have the authority, to choose which identity of theirs to suppress in order to cram them into one specific neat little box? whichever way you try to pigeonhole them, youre promoting gender binarism, which is nb-phobic. trying to cut up and divide ppl’s identities like nations erecting borders is dehumanizing. 

another aspect of this issue ive noticed is that almost every single person ive met who self-identifies as a bi or mspec lesbian is trans or nonbinary. they often have complicated relationships to gender and sexuality that sweeping statements like “lesbians cant like men!!!” end up erasing their experiences. ive seen ppl claim its a term used by cis women to describe sleeping with trans women and i cant stress enough how in all the reading and research ive done on bi lesbianism that ive never once seen that cited as a definition or something having been done in practice. its literally just ignorant teenagers or young adults in their early 20s who know nothing about their community’s culture or history talking straight out of their asses. and if there are ppl who do this, theyre extreme outliers and its disingenous to act like mspec lesbians would defend such a level of transphobia when, again, most mspec lesbians are transgender themselves and are well aware that this division occured bcus of terfs.

read queer history yall. for the love of whatever you consider sacred and holy in this world pls fucking read queer history. dont get all of your information off of social media, random unsourced carrds made by teenagers who obviously dont make an effort to learn about their own community, and bad faith internet debaters who make conclusions drawn off what amounts to nothing more than “vibes” essentially. these people have really big loud mouths, but theyre simply wrong. material history will never agree with them. 

throughout history, bi and lesbian have more or less meant and were treated as the same thing, including both women who exclusively were attracted to other women AS WELL AS women who were attracted to both women and men.

and until a single exclusionist can provide sources that can prove that 70′s lesbian separatism wasn’t a huge, well documented movement that resulted in much of the exclusionary attitudes and its effects we see even today, im just gonna continue to laugh at how childishly they cover their ears and go “la la la la” when presented with verifiable and cited evidence that this happened.

#bi lesbian #mspec lesbian #nonbinary #nonbinaryphobia #queer history

[prettyboyscollection]

(draft from my main, disclaimer for anyone who sees this: this blog is primarily a porn blog and stupid debating will be ignored or laughed at, you can try it but i dont care)

ive seen a lot of people incorrectly thinking that the trans people wanting to be acknowledged in reproductive rights discussions are all trans women, and as a result a lot of backlash to more gender neutral language in those discussions is like “you’ll never be a woman” “you’ll never be pregnant, so this doesn’t concern you” “‘males’ will never know the weight of this sort of decision, we don’t have to include you in this” and/or claiming that trans women throw tantrums and whine about dysphoria when it comes to about female-exclusive language and discussions about pregnant people

(they do not btw. i have never seen or heard a trans women interrupt a cis women and say that someone talking about periods or reproduction or anything to say they’re making her dysphoric, that discussing periods is transphobic, etc. and even if this hypothetical trans woman exists…… trans people are not a monolith. a few trans people saying stuff like that does not mean all trans people believe it.)

in reality, the people pushing for more neutral language… are trans men and nonbinary people who can get pregnant. “pregnant people” or “people with uteruses” or “people who menstruate” are not terms that exclude cis women, nor are trans people claiming that this language is being used to include trans women who can’t get pregnant (which is all of them, in the current world)

gender-neutral language with respect to reproductive rights (like abortion) is not misogynistic or erasing women or anything like that. frankly, i think it’s really fucking telling that people think that defining womanhood and being female by reproductive capability is cool and woke and feminist. “if you can have children, you’re always going to be female” is an outdated belief that doesn’t serve anyone but cis women and instead harms anyone who’s not a woman but can get pregnant.

“pregnant people” does not erase women, it just includes non-women who can also get pregnant. that’s all. it’s acknowledging a fact. it’s not some long-con game to remove cis women from existence, it’s literally just acknowledging that not all people who can get pregnant are women

#transandrophobia #transphobia // #misogyny // #‘saying pregnant people ignores women’ women are included in the word people. dumbass #i remember just after roe v wade got overturned i saw several posts from radfem types saying that trans men who were asking to be #acknowledged and recognized as victims of that decision #were delusional and ‘not realizing they can’t identify out of oppression’ #and a lot of them even suggested we should detransition as a result of that decision #because we’re ‘always going to be female’ #which is an incredibly callous and cruel way to look at this. #if you really support trans men (which a lot of terfs specifically say they do) even just as dysphoric or confused women #how is telling them they’re trapped as victims forever like. a feminist statement to you?? #‘uwu you’re going to be a victim of misogyny forever so you should detransition and accept being female’ #and just……… accept misogyny thrown at us because of it #if you think that you are an incredibly cruel person with no sympathy for marginalized people. like full stop #women are not the only group affected by reproductive rights being fucked with and i will beat you over the head with this fact #until it sinks in. women. are. not. the. only. ones. who. can. be. pregnant. #cis women are not the only ones who need abortion access. they’re just not. and acting like trans men wanting to be included in these #discussions is erasing women #is transphobic and cruel #accepting that not all people who can get pregnant are women is quick and easy and free. trust me acknowledging trans men will not kill you

[theasexual-jackson]

The terf pipeline that assigned female at birth trans folks are just “little girls with internalised misogyny and want to be males to escape misogyny” is bullshit! Feat. My experience as an afab transneutral person.

Hi, everyone! For those who don't know me, my name is Angel and I go by all pronouns (neos & xenos included), and welcome to this simple, but big, post.

I think everyone knows the radfems, also known as terfs. You know, these women whose feminism is just transphobia, racism, ableism, generalisation of womanhood and plain exclusion of anyone who isn't a cishet, white, middle to high class women. Maybe, a little bit of queer women, but only in their criteria.

And I think everyone here knows on their infantilization of trans men and assigned female at birth trans people in general. They always say: “Oh, poor little girl, consumed by outside and internalised misogyny, so she tries to be male so she can try to live happily!! =((”

And I say, bullshit, bullshit, FUCKING BULLSHIT! Talking from experience, even!

You see, even though I was raised and socialized as a girl... I didn't experience that much of misogyny. Hell, probably not at all.

“Omg, that's impossible, how would you do that?” Rapunzel. That's the secret, I lived and live to this day like Rapunzel.

I don't go out to stores that often, I only have one way on my daily basis: Home → School → Home. That's it, that's all it. This is how my life goes since forever.

And when I go out somewhere, I'm 9/10 times around one of my parents or my brother. So, my chances of getting catcalled, s/a'd or something are quite low.

I am a hyper protected kid, that's why I am a pussy. And while my mom was mean and a bigot in general in many points of my adolescence, she had enough sense to not be misogynistic throughout my childhood (things started to go wrong in my life, between me and her, when I started to show signs of non-cisgenderness and gender non conformity, to summarize).

And that gave me time to discover my identity without women hating structure of patriarchal society on the way (gender imposition on max.). In fact, I was reluctant to accept that I identified in a masculine way sometimes, because cis femininity (and probably some internalised transphobia) was too impregnated on my brain, at that point. So when I started to feel side effects of an misogynist society, my identity was already constructed, I already knew who I was, so misogyny couldn't really play a role in it.

To give y'all an idea, the first time I've ever been a victim of misogyny was in 2023, when I was 15, close to turning 16 years old, and I was getting romantically harassed by a boy (he changed schools, so I won't see that nigga's face ever again, THANK YOU LORD 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽) and that same muthafucka went on to say, in the middle of class, that women bad and they be the reason why we fail (based off that fucking Adam and Eve story, btw), directed at everyone who was read as a girl in that class, aka all the girls of my class and me. And, since I'm closeted, I had no choice but only be disgusted at that remark of his.

But, key word, disgusted. Not guilty, not deeply affected like any normal woman would; But disgusted. Because misogyny is disgusting to everyone who's not a misogynistic.

See where I'm getting into? My first contacts with what is misogyny in practice came too late to be experienced from a girl's perspective. Maybe from a fem presenting perspective, since I'm closeted, but I only can view it from a transgender perspective, now.

My transgender identity cannot be affected deeply by misogyny now, because misogyny came too late.

And that's not a case only for me, but for many other trans minors. Many trans kids understand that they diverge from the gender they were assigned at birth, even before getting a grasp of misogyny and/or gender related violence, even when they don't even know the existence of the word trans.

So, in conclusion, transness is not a result of internalised misogyny, but being a nasty girl who dismiss other girls just to get male appreciation is (and not only that, tho, patriarchy has many faces other than just sexual violence).

Bye!!! =3

#trans #transgender #lgbtq #lgbtqia #queer #nonbinary #transmasc #transfem #transneu #trans positivity #anti terf #anti radfem #transmisandry #transmisogyny #transphobia

[izanyas]

Hello!! this is the anon who asked to know more abt the atc world, thank you so much for replying to my ask :)) could you please tell me more about the anatomy and more about the betas cuz in many of the traditional a/b/o verses I've read betas are kinda discriminated. also does the concept of mating and bonding apply for atc?

hello! :) the anatomy in atc isn't really a part of the status separation. i made a point not to focus on that. you can have people of any body sort in any of the three statuses, the main "difference" is in the scent (which can actually be inaccurate from birth—see: meng yao) and the fever cycle (which isn't always present either, or not always in the same way—see: wen ning), the perceived general outside traits... but like with gender irl those traits are way overstated (like women being shorter than men—tons of women are taller than the average man, it's not even uncommon). wei wuxian in standards of beauty doesn't conform to a lot of these assumed traits, and some others don't either (wen yueying, wen qing...).

wei wuxian is intersex and able to become pregnant, but i won't be developing overly much on how that presents itself for him appearance-wise because i think it's rather in bad taste to obsess over that. he has a vagina and a womb, if that's what you're desperate to know. his being intersex manifests in other visible and invisible ways in his body and i've decided on all of it, i did so from the beginning, so i know what they are, but i don't think the readers need to know. there are cis kunze (wen ning, xue yang, meng yao, etc) and trans kunze (luo fanghua, wen yiqian) but gender isn't an actual point of discrimination or differentiation in atc. the whole concept of gender has been replaced by the concept of statuses. so gender is kind of like just another physical trait, like hair color or height or just clothing choices i guess. it doesn't mean anything wrt discrimination, and biology doesn't either.

i'm not gonna pretend it's a super well-developed and failsafe AU in that regard because frankly it's impossible to just completely rewrite gender-based discrimination with fantasy gender-based discrimination. but i didn't want to focus on genitalia because 1) genitalia isn't all there is to gender-based discrimination irl, far from it, 2) i find it weird and i don't want to do it. this way i get to allow trans and non-binary(*) characters to exist within any status. win-win.

therefore, kunze aren't all able to become pregnant and their role in society isn't to provide children anyway, since a child born of a kunze will be considered a bastard. they're seen as rare tradable goods. having kunze concubines is like having anything else that is expensive or rare. it's a statement of wealth and prestige as well as a personal pleasure.

as for zhongyong, it's not discrimination per se, but they are exempt from usual positions of power or notoriety. so they usually don't become heirs unless there aren't any qianyuan to pick up the mantle (nie huaisang). well ig it is discrimination when i say it like that. but the real divide of oppression is between kunze and the rest.

if you think all those assigned traits are stupid then you are right, they are, they are completely man-made and easily proven wrong/inaccurate and far from affecting everyone the same. just like gender irl. that's the point.

no mating or bonding in atc :) and no knotting or self-lubing assholes either afgdjhsksdf. i know a/b/o was created with fantasy/animalistic traits like those specifically in order to spice up smut fic, but since then a lot of ppl have added a social commentary to it, and since i wanted to write about the social aspect and not the smut, i decided not to include the sexual behaviors. this isn't judgment on my part btw. i just wanted to try writing an a/b/o social commentary fic that i thought would make as much sense as possible bc all the ones that i tried reading didn't satisfy me. but like... omegaverse isn't real anyway. there's no rules or anything. everyone go write your mating bonding knotting smut and have fun. that's what the bonding knotting smut was made for in the first place.

(*) i'm using "non-binary" loosely here because considering the setting i don't believe the vernacular can be so directly translated or assimilated to what we see as non-binary today. but yeah just know there are people in atc who are neither man nor woman, or not exactly, or a bit of both, or something else altogether, etc etc

#answered #atc ask #all this to say: i didn't want to base the whole thing on whether you have a dick or a pussy

[olderthannetfic]

I do think a lot of the problem and the reason that more people (like the ones who seem to think that "top/bottom as myers-briggs personality types" jokes are exclusively coming from female-centric fandom spaces rather than gay male offline culture - which, btw, ignores that a whole bunch if not most female fanfic writers are themselves queer and there's a similar set of jokes and stereotypes in the lesbian community, but I digress) don't seem to understand what offline queer culture is like on here is that way too many of the people setting the tone for this in The Discourse on Tumblr are very young people who are newly out. In particular, a huge amount of the gay men on here who are telling people how very Problematic this is (when they're getting it from gay men and not circular discourse among other women in fandom who are claiming to speak on gay men's behalf) is coming from young gay men who don't have much of a community offline, and especially young gay trans men who often aren't yet presenting as male outside of the Internet. It's really hard to talk about, because it so easily risks saying those people's identities aren't valid - and like, we've seen TERFs weaponize that discourse to suggest that gay trans men involved in fandom are just straight women who identified too hard with their blorbos or something, as well as the endless use of "passing privilege" to suggest that bi people in F/M relationships are "basically straight" - but I think one thing people need to understand better is the difference between "your identity is valid, your personal experiences with homophobia/transphobia/etc. are valid" and "your judgments about the larger community that your identity makes you a member of are valid." Like, you do actually have to participate in a community to be able to be able to talk about what the consensus in it is, what the cultural norms are. You have to actually look up the history in order to know that history. If you're going to speak on behalf of All Gay Men you probably should know some beyond yourself - including ones who are not Very Online and/or aren't active in fandom - and that goes for both cis and trans gay men. (And the same is true for every subdivision of LGBTQ+, I've seen similarly bizarre takes about "lesbian culture" from 17-yro lesbians who clearly haven't talked to any outside of Tumblr and insular, dramatic Discords.)

Like, to use an analogy here to another kind of oppression: say you have a black person who was adopted by a white family very young and lived in an exclusively white neighborhood and doesn't know any other black people. Obviously, they are still black, and obviously they still experience racism (probably especially because they're an outlier in that community). Obviously, their own understanding of their identity and their experiences with racism are valid. But they aren't necessarily going to have any better of an understanding of the broader black COMMUNITY - cultural traditions, history, etc. - than a non-black person who was similarly not exposed to that community. They can only speak for themselves. And someone who isn't black but grew up near/in black communities (for instance, perhaps another transracial adoptee who was adopted by a black couple? or even just a non-black person who grew up in a heavily black neighborhood) might actually have a better sense of that broader community/culture than they do.

And this isn't a hypothetical. I've heard stuff like that about feeling like outliers in black American culture from everyone from the aforementioned transracial adoptees; to multiracial black people who were raised primarily by their non-black family; to black people who are recent immigrants from Africa rather than descendants of slaves; to black people from Europe or other parts of the Americas, who have some similarities in their culture but it's not completely 1:1. And especially from people who are some combo of the above. They have an understanding of themselves as black and of their relationship to race and racism, of course, but don't really feel like they have a particularly strong understanding of The Black Community or The Black Experience as we understand it in the USA.

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that newly-out queer people are often like that. A lot of other marginalized identities - like being a cis woman (this applies less to trans women unless they've known from early on) or being a POC - are ones where you grow up with an understanding of what that means and often a connection to a broader community that gives you some kind of consciousness of what it means to be A Woman or Black or Asian or whatever. But with queerness, it's usually not something you fully understand about yourself until adolescence or adulthood, and even when you do, you don't necessarily have access to a "community" around that until that age because you're probably being raised by cis straight people. You have to take time to discover that community and learn about it, and the culture and history that goes with, and when you start out you're going to be just as ignorant as a straight cis person who is similarly isolated from queer communities. (And frankly, a straight person with a lot of gay friends might know better than you do at first! As a lesbian with a lot of gay male friends, most of whom couldn't care less about my slash fanfic hobby if they even know about it, that's precisely why I know that these takes on Tumblr are so bizarre)

(Disability is the interesting one because it sometimes overlaps with this, sometimes doesn't - and one of the big divides in the community IME is around people who have lifelong understandings of themselves as "disabled" vs. came to it more recently, whether because the disability itself is a new thing or just their diagnosis of it. A lot of people in the second group can have very similar experiences and act in similar ways to newly-out queer people, and I know because I've lived both myself, lol.)

I think people have taken the idea of "everyone is the best expert on their own experience with oppression and their own identity" and distorted that into some weird essentialism where being gay or bi or trans or whatever gives you automatic understanding of "queer culture" or "queer history" without having to do the actual work of talking to people, participating in that community, studying history, etc. but that's just not true. Anyone can study that history and get to know those people. And yeah, as a queer or trans person you'll have a better opportunity to really deeply know and be part of that community than straight cis people with queer friends ever will, but you still have to like. Actually put yourself out there! You're not going to find it by just discoursing in a vacuum of ignorance.

--

Sadly, to all the Olds, this is very, very obvious, but there's no way to make it obvious to the people doing it. It's a matter of experience.

[radkindoffeminist]

I have a lot of issues with your pinned post and if you are willing to have a respectful discussion in dm's or whatever I will gladly explain my rationale on several of the points you made but I think you are really missing the point of inclusive language.

Yes, there are people who attack individual women for calling themselves "pregnant women" instead of "pregnant people." The reality is that there is always someone out there arguing for the stupidest possible version of any belief in existence. But that isn't the point of inclusive language.

The reason it's actually important isn't about validating people, it's about people getting access to the healthcare they need. If you, as a woman, go to a gynecologist looking for help with birth control, or pregnancy, or menstrual issues, etc etc you're not going to be turned away because "you're a woman, not a person." (This is NOT the same as not being taken seriously btw. Before you bring up that argument.) But trans men can and have been turned away from those procedures because "this treatment is for women/you can't possibly have [insert issue here], you're a man." Basically, read Stone Butch Blues I am begging.

Individual women can call themselves women as much as they want, but in medical settings it's important to use inclusive (and accurate!) language. "People who can get pregnant" acknowledges that there are women who are too young or old to get pregnant, or lack certain organs necessary for it, while including people who aren't women that can. And by the way, there are plenty of trans people who do encourage the use of inclusive language when it comes to male healthcare and are frustrated by terms like "womxn" being popularized.

You say you don't hate trans people or want us to come to harm? Help us protect our access to basic healthcare.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Medical inclusivity? Really? What makes you think that just turning from ‘pregnant women’ to ‘pregnant people’ is going to make people recognise that there are female people who don’t identify as women who can still get pregnant? Like, is that really going to be such a big problem in the medical community that actually we need to change all of our language because that alone will make doctors recognise that trans men can also get pregnant?

Moreover, even if I accept the above -that the language needs to change to accommodate trans people, especially as it seems like disagreeing with you about this makes you think that I want trans people to be harmed but I’ll deal with that later- why should it mean that I’m not allowed to be offended by this language change when it forces me to address myself and other women by our organs? This is especially offensive towards women who have a long history of being treated as a walking baby-maker/uterus/vagina. You only picked pregnant person in your example, but there are so many other terms I’ve seen: uterus owner, vagina haver, menstruator, etc. Why is my offence taken as hate on trans people? There are so many other terms which could be used which are significantly less offensive but those ones aren’t chosen, just the ones where we’re forced to refer to ourselves by our organs. Women, AFAB non-binary people, and trans men, for one.

Finally, if the actual argument that you’re going with is because it’s necessary for medical reasons then why is it only women who are targeted with this language? I literally don’t care that some people are encouraging the male equivalents because the reality of the situation is that these terms are directed almost exclusively towards women. There are so many examples of sites which use this language for women while men are still male! It just goes to show how deeply misogynistic this all is and how it was always meant to dehumanise women and separate us from our sex and our sex class.

You’ve basically just said ‘it’s better and more inclusive to trans people so shut up about being offended about it because if you disagree then you want harm to come to trans people’. You’re never going to care about my arguments or my feelings on this subject because all you’re going to do is say that I just hate trans people and want them to be hurt if I disagree. You don’t care about the fact that this language is deeply misogynistic and targets women. You just want us to shut up, accept it, and feel bad for being offended.