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gerryrigged · 10 months

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wait wdym dc didn't stick with Red Robin for Tim [and the de-aging thing?] what are they calling him if not RR?

He's been Robin again since 2019 😬 it's a bit more complicated but that's the gist of it.

Okay so Tim became Red Robin in the 2009-2011 series of the same name, back in the post-Crisis timeline. He was supposedly 17 at the time, by official records, and I believe he was still supposed to be 17 when the universe was rebooted with Flashpoint in 2011? (Although this doesn't really make any sense with respect to jamming the huge number of events that happened while he was Robin into like four years, if he was supposed to have become Robin at 13; he should probably at least be 18 if not 19-20).

The Flashpoint reboot took us into the New 52 (much beloathed), where nearly everyone was de-aged to some extent to keep Bruce Wayne and his generation from getting ~too old~, and also Tim Drake was mangled into a completely different character who had never been "Robin"; he'd been "Red Robin" right from the start of his vigilante career. He was de-aged to 16 for the New 52 Teen Titans series.

Teen Titans (2011) #0; as you can see, this version of Red Robin kept a version of the bandoliers and gave Tim a fancy new functional wing cape that he could fly around with.

Next, Rebirth in 2016 was a partial reboot that brought back some aspects of the post-Crisis timeline; tbh I'm not an expert on this period. What I do know is that Tim mainly appears in James Tynion IV's run of Detective Comics that ran from 2016 to 2018. During this period Tim was still called Red Robin, but he'd basically reverted to a Robin costume, with only the silly doubled "RR" symbol identifying him as not ~actually~ Robin winkwink nudgenudge, and as I understand it he was mostly back to functioning as Bruce's partner.

Tynion's run ends in Detective Comics #981 with Tim telling Bruce that he's going off to Ivy University. (He's totally lying, as Tim Drake does; Alfred notices that his tracker is going off in the opposite direction of the university, but Bruce is like "I trust him" and turns the tracker off. Yay, I guess?)

Anyway the important bit is this revealing that Tim is 'going-off-to-college' age. Which could still reasonably be anywhere from 17-19, and DC being DC, they ~refuse to confirm~

Tim as Red Robin on the cover of Detective Comics #934 (2016); as you can see, he's pretty much Robin again lol

Detective Comics #968 (2018); another shot of his "basically Robin" Red Robin costume

In 2019 we got the actual return of Tim as Robin (no "Red") in Brian Michael Bendis's Young Justice run, re-uniting the Core Four from YJ 1998.

Young Justice (2019) #1

As you can see, he no longer has the doubled 'RR', and he confirms that he's Robin - "Well, one of them!" I think he's supposed to be filling in as the Gotham Robin while Damian is running around the world having adventures and presumably getting into trouble, as Robins do? idk.

Tim also chases down his erased post-Crisis past at the beginning of this arc, having Zatanna magically restore (most of) his memories of the previous timeline, and, crucially, his forgotten best friend Kon, kickstarting some plot.

Tim, and all of the Young Justice crew, are notably young-looking for almost the entirety of this run. It varies based on the artist, but uh, yeah for the most part they are really damn baby-faced. This is a trend that continues with Tim and his generation of friends from this point onward, so fans have basically thrown up their hands like "is he 17 forever???? is he Edward Cullen from Twilight???? is he aging backward????"

We Just Don't Know

In any case, Bendis makes DC's next attempt to give Tim his own identity in short order, giving us the hilarious, ill-fated, and rightfully short-lived "Drake" identity.

Young Justice (2019) #10

He's back to being Robin by issue #18, hilariously switching costumes from one page to the next, although some time has apparently passed during the scene transition.

Young Justice (2019) #18; Jinny: "Is Drake back to being Robin?" Kon: "I think Batman and Spoiler made him go back to Robin. Don't bring it up. And say thank you because we didn't have to have the Drake intervention we were planning."

And as of the current date (July 13, 2023), Tim is still in the Robin identity, sharing it with Damian ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ God knows how old he's supposed to be right now. I certainly don't.

Batman (2016) #136; the most recent issue out to date, with Tim suiting up as Robin while filling Bruce in after diving into a bunch of parallel dimensions to bring Bruce home.

As you can see, it's a Mess. The Tim Drake's Vigilante Identity question is of course a hotbed of wank and infighting, as people are torn between (a) wanting him to continue as Robin and (b) wanting him to move on and "grow up" into his own identity again (and, importantly, leave Damian as the sole Robin again, lol).

It feels like most people are for option (b), but then nobody can agree on what his next identity and costume should be. Red Robin again?? Some other bird-based identity that doesn't share a name with a major restaurant chain?? Something else entirely??

God only knows what DC is going to come up with, especially after the Drake fiasco.

And there you have it, Anon! Hope that was helpful.

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northoftheroad · 5 months

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hey! im really new to the fandom and ive been looking through your blog (quite literally awesome btw) and im finding your resources so helpful! I was just wondering if you have a recommended reading order/place to start? i want to get a good understanding of the storylines but i also wanna focus on dick grayson bc ive just been drawn to him the most so far, also on the batfam in general. Im having a hard time figuring out where to start haha

Hi, welcome and I'm happy you've been enjoying my posts ❤️ Maybe you've seen my three reading lists (pre-Flashpoint, New 52 and the current run) but decided there's too many old comics to hunt down? Perfectly understandable 😎

I guess there are as many possible starting points as there are Dick Grayson fans to give recommendations. Personally, I'm fond of the New Teen Titans from the 1980s. Read with modern eyes, they're not flawless, but it's still the start of the modern, growing-up version of Dick Grayson. The book will eventually decline in quality, but there's still a lot of comics to enjoy.

For older stories with Dick as Robin, DC has published two collected editions with stories from the 60s and 70s. They're partly the same comics in both volumes. I like them, and if you’re curious about this period you’ll be spared the job of looking through many, many floppies for the occasional Robin story.

If you're looking for something considerably shorter, there’s also The Gauntlet (Dick’s field test, a great one-shot) and Robin Year One, which I'm sorry to say I don't love, and Teen Titans Year One, which is a good short and modern retelling of vol 1 of the Teen Titans.

If you look at current comics, it's no secret I think Tom Taylor’s run is pretty dull, but a lot of people love it. That's one starting point, but I'd rather recommend to start reading volume 4 from the start. The book has had its ups and downs (feel free to skip the years before Taylor started writing, when Dick is not-Dick) but some of the pre-Taylor stories are very good.

But - the best current books with Dick are no doubt Batman Superman World’s Finest, and the spin-off six issue WF Teen Titans. Dick is not the main character in WF, and he's not yet Nightwing, and it’s still superior .

That's what I can think about on the spot. I hope you’ll find something helpful!

#dick grayson #nightwing #robin #batman #batman and robin

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daemons-not-rogues · 4 years

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@toastedside asked in a gc for rec's of where to start w/ Batman comics and it turns out I have a lot of Opinions™️ about this so I thought I'd make a longer post :)

Basically, it boils down to:

Start with what you want to read!

Admittedly, that's not very helpful if you don't know where in the comics to find the bit you want to read, so we'll work from there! I've listed below what I think can be good entry points to the Batman (& the Batman Family of comics) based on what you might be looking for. [Keeping in mind that this list leans heavily away from DC's Rebirth/New 52... maybe someone who likes the newer stuff enough to keep up with them can help me out there??]

[Note: links go to the full comics on https://readconiconline.to - BUT! I *highly* recommend using an ad-blocker with this site! Some of the ads make me really uncomfy. You have been warned!]

Also, the ⭐s aren't important other than that they represent some of my personal faves :)

1. Looking for slightly-silly, lighthearted classic tales (from long before you were born)?? Try:

Batman: the Classic Casebook (includes The Rainbow Batman⭐ and Batman Meets Bat-Mite)

2. How about stories featuring Batman's two original partners? Check out:

Batgirl/Robin: Year One for an updated (circa 2013) take on Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon's origin stories.

Or, if you've ever heard a reference to Babs' time in Congress and want to know more, try The Batman Family (1975) (Note: this is most definitely part of pre-crisis continuity and has little relation to the rest of the stories on this list, but it's a fun read ☺️)

3. Already know who your favorite Robin is? Are you sure about that? See:

For Dick Grayson, the OG™️ Boy Wonder:

Robin: Year One (above)

A throwback, but Batman & Superman's first Golden-age team up in World's Finest Comics #71 kicks off the "two dads and their son just having a good time" era

Not a Batman comic exactly, but New Teen Titans (1980) #1-8+ has the (pre-flashpoint/infinite crisis) origins of probably the most recognizable cast of the Teen Titans team (& features Dick striking out on his own)

Personally, I have... never really cared for all the retconning in 2005's Nightwing: Year One, so I'd recommend starting with either:

Nightwing (1995), the 4-issue limited run featuring #discowing ⭐ (honestly, the * isn't even for the story. The art is insane absolute gold. Dick's flowing locks. Alfred's green pinstriped suit. The artist's obvious thirst way they draw Dick & esp. when he's stripping off the suit. I just... can't even with this series. It never fails to make me giggle)

Or Nightwing (1996) #1 if finger-stripes are more your style (welcome to the Haven, Dick 😉)

For Jason Todd:

Batman (1940) #408 ⭐ (stealing the tires from the Batmobile will never not be a classic),

Batman (1940) #366-368 ⭐ (pre-crisis, but you will have to pry this version of Dick passing the mantle from my cold, dead hands),

Superman (1937) Annual #11: For the Man Who Has Everything (A throw-back: it's Clark's birthday at the fortress of solitude, and Robin saves the day!)

Legends of the Dark Knight: Norm Breyfogle (TPB, collected 🦇 comics mostly from the 80s, many of which feature Jason as Robin)

For Tim Drake:

Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying (1990) (collected from Batman/Teen Titans, Tim's first appearances after Jason's death),

Robin (1991) (Tim abroad, featuring Shiva and King Snake),

And Robin II (1992) ⭐ (Batman's out of town, but don't worry - Tim and Alfred have got this covered 😆)

For Stephanie Brown:

Honestly, you for Steph you *have* to start with Spoiler's introduction/origins. See: Detective Comics (1937) #647-649 ⭐, and

Showcase '95 #5 ⭐ (for the Spoiler stand-alone story)

From then on, she shows up every few issues in Robin (1993)

For Damian Wayne:

honestly, I... probably wouldn't recommend starting here? Maybe I'm too biased towards the 90s, but I just think you miss out on a ~lot~ of Batfam history if you do

If you're sure though, his first appearance is in Batman (1940) #655 circa 2006

4. Does Oracle's all-around badassery make you swoon? SAME

It's not her earliest appearance (that's in the 80s run of Suicde Squad, believe it or not), but for her origin story, see 'Oracle: Year One', in The Batman Chronicles (1995) #5 ⭐

Birds of Prey is iconique Oracle!Babs. See Black Canary/Oracle: Birds of Prey for the start of their adventures (and if you fall in love like I did, there's a good reading order by ComicBookHerald here, since there are a half-dozen differently-titled one-offs and mini series before the start of the BoP serial in 1999)

5. Love you some Cassandra Cain?? Me too!!

Her first appearance is in Batman (1940) #567 - BUT, it's the middle of the NML run, which is sooo good I recommend the whole thing. Depending on how much you want to bite off, I'd even recomend starting as far back as Batman: Contagion, because it's really really good.

Below I've listed the progression of major arcs in that era (most bridge the entire Batman Family of comics, from Detective Comics, Shadow of the Bat, Robin, and Nightwing, to Azreal, Catwoman, etc.). Any of these could be a good place to pick up the comics!

Batman: Prodigal (after B broke his back in the Knightfall arc, Dick Grayson temporarily takes the cape. Great for Dick & Tim brotherly bonding, plus flashbacks where Dick retells his origins)

Batman: Contagion & Batman: Legacy ⭐ (Ra's Al Ghul tries to take Gotham out with a plague)

Batman: Cataclysm & Batman: Aftershock/Road to No Man's Land

Batman: No Man's Land ⭐⭐ (Cass!!! The whole Batfam!! Oracle and the GCPD!! Huntress!!! Plus the A++ characterization of the rogues *cough*Ivy*cough*Two-Face*)

What do you think? Do you have different recommendations?

#long post #batfam #comics #intro to batfam comics #oracle #robin #dick grayson #jason todd #tim drake #damian wayne #nightwing #batgirl #stephanie brown #spoiler #cassandra cain #comic recs #barbara gordon #90s comics

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wesavegotham · 5 years

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Bruce is frustrating

This post contains spoilers for Tom King’s Batman #60+ and Peter Tomasi’s run on detective comics #995+.

So Bruce and Damian Wayne aka Batman and Robin (!) have gone seperate ways since Justice League: No Justice #4 in May 2018:

After their offscreen argument the only indication that Damian just running off on his own had any effect on Bruce at all was this promotional material for Heroes in Crisis from DC Nation #4 in September 2018:

Heroes in Crisis doesn’t really adress any of Batman’s issues listed above, he just gets a page telling the camera that he has seen many of his partners/family members die and that he feels bad because of it. Not exactly a revelation in my opinion.

The first time a Batman comic even hints at Bruce suffering from their estrangement was months later in Batman #62, January 2019:

Bruce woke up in a slaughterhouse without knowing how he got there and had to fight Professor Pyg. At the end of the issue Bruce finally asked Pyg how he got there and how he can get out and then Pyg turned into Damian and walked away:

The chapter is part of Batman’s ongoing Knightmares arc. Apparently Thomas Wayne/Flashpoint Batman hooked Bruce onto a machine that pumps fear toxin into him after Thomas knocked him out at the end of Batman #60. According to DC Bruce is facing “his greatest fears” in this arc.

I’ll be honest, I’m still not sure what exactly Bruce is afraid of in this chapter. Damian turning evil? Having a physical fight with his son? Letting him in? It’s confusing and I’m not sure if King will give us any further explanation after Bruce wakes up, but at least a Batman comic aknowledged that something is going wrong after months of simply ignoring it.

When Tomasi started his run on Detective Comics I was hopeful that he might adress their estrangement, because Tomasi has written a lot for Damian over the past years and I was right:

He adressed it in the third issue of his run, detective comics #996, also in January 2019. Bruce seems to know about Damian’s new team and wants to work things out.

The end of this arc, Detective Comics #999, revealed that everything we saw since #994 was a simulation Bruce goes through every year on his birthday to become a better crimefighter, meaning that this conversation only took place inside the simulation and was thus not real. Bruce hasn’t asked Damian if they can make up and we don’t know if Damian would really agree to clear things up between them if Bruce did.

Despite this it’s possible to see this conversation as an indication that Bruce wants to fix their relationship, since the problem is seemingly important enough to Bruce for it to invade a simulation that had nothing to do with Damian at all.

Sadly Bruce doesn’t follow up on his wish when he actually does meet his son in the manor for the first time in probably months:

Instead he goes out with Leslie and Alfred to celebrate, which is a really nice moment don’t get me wrong, but still feels a bit like a wasted opportunity.

We don’t get an explanation on why Damian was at home in the first place. It made sense for him to be in the cave to take care of an injured Alfred inside the simulation, but Alfred is fine in the real world and doesn’t need help. It’s Bruce’s birthday, but Damian stated that they aren’t on speaking terms in Teen Titans, so I don’t think that he would come back only to congratulate his father (especially since Bruce completely forgot about Damian’s last birthday at the start of Rebirth *cough*).

After looking at the solicitations for upcoming Detective Comics issues I’m fairly certain that he will be part of the story again for Detective Comics #1002 and #1003 at the latest, therefore it’s not unlikely that we’ll get something on the matter then or even before that:

#1002: Batman’s first battle with the Arkham Knight was as brutal as they come…but things are about to get worse, as one of his most important allies jumps into the fray, and ends up in far over their head!

#1003: Damian was so certain he could succeed against the Arkham Knight where his father failed—and not only was he wrong, but as it turns out, the Knight has a surprising plan for the son of Batman!

It doesn’t look too good for him, but I have more faith in Tomasi to write a good Damian story than in Adam Glass, Christopher Priest or Tom King.

I guess one of my main problems with DC right now is that a lot of the batfamily comics and beyond don’t feel connected at all. Bruce in Tom King’s Batman and in Detective Comics feel like two different people and their stories seem to take place in different universes sometimes. Ric Grayson is still going on in Nightwing, but the only people who adressed the Ric situation are Bruce, Alfred and Barbara. Damian and Jason worked together in Teen Titans (and had a fight), but Red Hood and the Outlaws says nothing about that. Jon Kent, Damian’s best friend, was in space for some time and came back as a 17 year old, but Damian hasn’t noticed a thing. Jason had a falling out with Batman, but the only thing that Bruce goes on and on about are Selina leaving him and Dick getting shot in the head as if everything else didn’t happen.

Not everything about that is bad, I know. Not having to read everything to understand a story is better for people who only read one or two comics. I’m not demanding for writers to dedicate entire pages or issues to respond to something another writer did, but it would be nice if they included a few sentences that let you know that yes, certain things have happened and we’re not ignoring it. Just a few words, preferably not months after an event.

And I would prefer for Bruce to finally fix his relationships with his kids DC.

#damian wayne #bruce wayne #batfamily #batman and robin #long post #sorry

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kl-writes · 7 years

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Stable DC Timeline (Part 2/5)

At this point, I started thinking about what their ‘current’ ages should be. I see Flashpoint as the end of the initial DC Universe, so that’s the starting point for the stable DC Timeline’s ‘current’ era, or at least the point in time from where stories should develop and we start to put in new thoughts and ideas. Flashpoint takes place in mid-1974 (Unadj. 2011).

Batfamily:

Bruce Wayne: 55

· Dick Grayson: 37

· Helena Wayne: 27

· Jason Todd: 26

· Timothy Drake: 24

· Cassandra Cain: 23

· Damian Wayne: 22

· Duke Thomas: 15 (Existence uncertain, he’s post-Flashpoint. His first appearance would be mid-1975, and we consider the current time to be 1974).

Selina Kyle: 55

Katherine Kane: 34

Barbara Gordon: 38 (Puts her at 16 at her first appearance)

Stephanie Brown: 23 (Puts her at 13 at her first appearance, and 17 at the birth of her daughter)

· Unknown Daughter – Adopted by someone?: 6

Alfred Pennyworth: 75 (First appearance was in 1946. However, he was with the Waynes presumably during the upbringing of Bruce, so I used the minimum age of 20 at Bruce’s birthday, making his birthday 1899.)

Luke Fox: 19 (Post-Flashpoint)

Harper Row: 14 (Post-Flashpoint)

Speedsters:

Jay Garrick: 55

Barry Allen: 47

Wally West: 35

Iris West II: 3

Jai West: 3

Bart Allen: ??? (1966 would be his first appearance. Speedforce affected his aging, putting his birthday at 2 years prior, despite appearing to be 12. His effective age is about 20 as of 1974, so his civilian records likely have his birth year as ‘1956.’ These are fake, though, as he’s from the future).

For a lot of the more modern comics, the ages of Damian and Timothy seem a bit too old, given their personalities. Even Dick seems a bit too old with this timeline. We can see that although the adjusted timeline works well for the oldest characters in DC, when it comes to legacy characters, the timeline isn’t perfect. It doesn’t help that in some stories, Dick and Wally are seen as young adult peers, and in others, Wally is seen as the father of a young family. This is where the stable timeline starts to change how characters are perceived. This is also why I wanted to minimize any changes to characters I might make to force them to fit the timeline, because introducing a stable timeline will force character growth and maturity.

Another thing I thought about was making certain character deaths permanent. Superman came back to life, Batman came back to life, and Jason Todd came back to life. My thought is, that unless their return created new stories (Like with Jason Todd), maybe they should just stay dead. This means that Superman died in 1965 (Unadj. 1992), Batman died in 1973 (Unadj. 2008), and Barry Allen died in 1962 (Unadj. 1986).

This doesn’t stop their stories. Wally West as the Flash has been thoroughly explored- in many ways, he absolutely trumped Jay Garrick and Barry Allen as the Scarlet Speedster. Dick Grayson as Batman was also interesting- he became Batman out of necessity, to stop the battle for the cowl. His dynamic with Damian was interesting. Given that Damian is “now” 22, perhaps Dick Grayson would step down from the role of Batman, and go back to being Nightwing. Damian always wanted to be Batman’s successor. Jason Todd, Timothy Drake, and Cassandra Cain all seem as though they’ve gone on their own paths of heroism now.

Superman’s permanent death would also be interesting. It was Superman himself that stopped the fighting of the supermen. Had he not intervened, perhaps Steel would have become Metropolis’s hero. Maybe constant battles between Lex Luthor and Superboy would have opened up new avenues- it’s not a straight Darth Vader, given that Superboy’s only a clone, but Lex Luthor has shown some affection for Superboy in the past. What would happen if Lex were able to establish a more permanent sort of mind control? What if he did so, and essentially took control of Metropolis’s ‘Superman,’ being able to play both sides of the board? There’s definitely a lot of room for stories like this.

Those were the biggest 3 deaths at the top of my head, but there were many others where the character came back to life, but didn’t necessarily have to. I’m not counting when they came back within a few months (Like with Wally West or Guy Gardner), of course, just the deaths that were “supposed” to stick- Bart Allen II, Supergirl, Hal Jordan, Martian Manhunter, Captain Boomerang I, etc.

Another thing we can do is look at deaths of minor characters, especially those around Final Crisis and Flashpoint, and determine whether we want those deaths to ‘stick’ or not. For example, Weather Wizard’s son, Josh Jackam, was killed off during Final Crisis. Owen Mercer, son of the first Captain Boomerang, was killed during Blackest Night. Both of these characters were potential ‘legacy’ characters. The Rogues don’t have many of these, so it might make more sense if they didn’t die, especially since their deaths didn’t have any lasting effects on the story.

Rogues (And kids):

Leonard Snart: 47

Lisa Snart: 37 (DEAD)

Hartley Rathaway: 46

Mark Mardon: 46

· Josh Jackam: 5 (Dead?)

Sam Scudder: 46 (DEAD)

Evan McCullock: 31

James Jesse: 45 (DEAD)

· Billy Hong: 17

Axel Walker: 24

Digger Harkness: 45 (Dead?)

· Owen Mercer: 23 (Dead?)

Roscoe Dillon: 45 (DEAD)

Mick Rory: 44

Roy G. Bivolo: 35 (DEAD)

Owen and Josh are soft deaths for the reasons listed above. Digger came back to life, but he should probably just be dead-dead like Superman and Batman. Looking at this, it’s kind of depressing how many of my favorite characters, the Rogues, are dead.

If we were to look at a modern (1974) Rogues, we might also consider Wally West’s hallucination in the Flash v2 #140, with Cadet Cold, Mirror Miss, Heat-Whelp, Weather Whiz-Kid and Captain Slingshot as children of the Rogues. Cadet Cold would either be Leonard’s kid, or perhaps an unknown child of Lisa and Roscoe, who was perhaps sent to an orphanage. Mirror Miss would be Evan’s, Heat-Whelp would be Mick’s, Weather Whiz-Kid is more than likely Josh Jackam, and Captain Slingshot is Owen’s. Billy Hong, AKA Makhalli, with his magical powers, would likely become a superhero of some sort, if so, probably mentored by Hartley. But all of this is just speculation!

The Luthors and the Supermen:

Clark Kent/Kal-El: 56 (DEAD)

Jonathan Samuel Kent: 1? (Existence uncertain, as he’s a post-convergence character who is the son of the New Earth Clark Kent)

Christopher Kent/Lor-Zod: 22

Kara Zor-El (Supergirl): 46 (DEAD)

Kara Zor-L (Powergirl): 39

Alexander Joseph “Lex” Luthor: 55

· Lena Luthor II: 6

· Connor Kent/Kon-El: 9, he was “born” in 1965 with the body of a teenager, so his biological age is anywhere from 22 – 28. (DEAD)

· Jerry White: 32

Lena Luthor I: 45

· Lori Luthor 17, high schooler. Honestly, this one could be anywhere from 14-19, she only appeared in one storyline before Flashpoint.

One thing that I didn’t realize before was that Superboy was yet another person who died and came back to life 3 years later. So my remarks earlier about the dynamic between Lex Luthor and Connor might not apply, depending on where you set the limit on how long until death becomes “permanent.” My initial thought was 1 year max, but maybe this should change. I’m not quite sure what to do with the two Karas, but it’s entirely possible that Superman has 2 cousins.

The Marvels and the Sivanas

Billy Batson: Biologically 23/Chronologically 42

Mary Bromfield: 23/42

Freddy Freeman: 23/42

Thaddeus Sivana, Sr.: 56/75 (Assuming a starting age of 40)

Magnificus Sivana: 36/55

Beautia Sivana: 36/55

Georgia Sivana: 23/42

Thaddeus Sivana, Jr.: 23/42

The Wizard: 9000+

This is another special case. The original run was from 1941 – 1953, and due to a long story about legal issues, didn’t have another ongoing series until 1973, and after Crisis on Infinite Earths, in 1991. In 1973, Billy had been gone for 20 years without aging, due to being exiled by Dr. Sivana, placed into suspended animation. In 1991, the story was that the Wizard froze Fawcett City in time to protect it from the encroaching evils of the outside world. As a result, between 1953 and 1991, we can say that the Marvel family didn’t age. Even adjusted, that’s 1945 – 1964, or about 19 years taken from Billy’s life. Billy began Captain Marvel at age 7 – 14, depending on the version. If we aim low, and take into account the lost years, then in 1964 his age is still only 13, which fits him being a child hero for that series.

The Sivana family, like the rest of Fawcett, only lost 9 years.

Edit: Upon re-reading, I found that the sivanas also lost 19 years. I adjusted the ages accordingly.

#dc #dc comics #timeline #fanfiction #au #stable dcu

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northoftheroad · 4 years

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Hi! I'm really sorry to bother you! But I was wondering if you could give us a list of recommended stories with dick after his Robin days. Like after bruce fired him and he became nightwing? All up to the time he had to become batman? I really love your content by the way ☺️!!!

Gosh, this turned out to be even more tricky than the Robin list, and it's frightfully long!

One reason is that storytelling has changed since Dick was Robin. Back in the Golden and Silver age, with very few exceptions, comics were stand-alone short stories. In later decades, it's usually arcs that span at least a couple of issues. Some themes can run for a very long time. For instance, Dick was brainwashed by Brother Blood in New Teen Titans vol 1 # 22 (in 1982), and that would have consequences until The New Teen Titans vol 2 #31 (1987).

There are also a looot of stories – apart from guest appearances, Nightwing is a regular/lead character in several books named New Teen Titans/Titans and suchlike, 1980-1996 and 1999-2009; Outsiders vol 3 (2003-2007); Nightwing vol 1 (1995) and vol 2 (1996–2007). In team titles, several characters compete for attention. Also, I have read and know the Nightwing books more than his team titles, so they will be more prominent on my list.

There are a bunch of stories where Dick has a pretty small role and won't be in a lot of panels, but those panels can be "important" and often quoted when it comes to Dick. For instance, Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive, Hush, Under the Hood...

So, you'll have to take this for what it is. A very personal list, with stories I like (and remember), or have some fun panels, or are "important". Because certain stories are essential to the character's history, regardless if you like them or not. (And if you want more of Dick with Kory/Starfire, read the New Teen Titans titles.) If you'd like to see a synopsis before you commit to reading – because did I mention it is a very long list indeed? – the dc.fandom.com wiki page will often provide.

(Or you could do the sensible thing, and see this as more of "the complete history of pre-Batman Nightwing, and ask somebody else for recommendations...)

The Judas contract (when Dick becomes Nightwing). The New Teen Titans # 39-40, Tales of the Teen Titans #41-44, Annual #3. (1984)

Trivial Pursuits. NewTeen Titans vol 2 # 32. (A nice breather, when the Titans try just to relax together. It goes as well as can be expected.) (1987)

Batman # 416. (First post-Crisis meeting with Jason Todd) (1988)

The Cheshire Contract. Action Comics Weekly # 613-618 (Dick helps Roy find his daughter.) (1988)

The New Titans # 55. (Dick learns about Jason's death when the Titans return to Earth after a long period in space. He goes to Bruce to talk and what follows is the infamous scene when Bruce hits Dick, says he should never have had a partner and tells Dick to leave and leave the keys with Alfred.) (1989)

Batman year Three. Batman # 436–439. (Flashbacks with a retelling of Dick's origin, during Bruce's third year as Batman. In the "now", Dick tries to reach out to Bruce and Dick's parents' murderer is about to be set free.) (1989)

A Lonely Place of Dying. Batman # 440-442, New Titans # 60-61. (1990)

The New Titans # 65. (Tim turns up at Dick's place to learn what it is to be Batman's partner.) (1990)

Total Chaos. (In issues of Deathstroke the Terminator, New Titans and Team Titans.) (Mirage, a woman from an alternate future and who has illusion casting powers, takes the form of Starfire and sleeps with Dick, who is shamed by his team members for being unfaithful to Kory, even though this is rape. So, an important fact to know but not something I would recommend to read.) (1992)

Knightfall Prodigal (Dick's first longer stint as Batman. And he takes care of Tim and the Manor on his own!) In Batman #512-514 and three other titles. (1994-1995)

Nightwing Alfred's Return (Kind of fun, when Dick seeks out Alfred, who left Bruce's service because Bruce wasn't taking care of himself, in London.) (1995)

Nightwing vol 1 # 1-4. (I don't love this, but it is a milestone in that it's the first Nightwing solo series, Dick momentarily decides to leave the hero business, and gets his by now classic fingerstripe suit.) #1-4 (1995)

Like Riding a Bike. (Donna checks up on Dick.) The Batman Chronicles # 7. (1996)

(Nightwing vol 2 began in 1996.)

Nightwing vol 2 # 6. (Tim and Dick talk and fight crooks.) (1997)

Nightwing vol 2 # 12-16. (Batman pays a visit and Dick makes his custom made car.) (1997)

The Flash plus Nightwing. (Dick and Wally on vacation.) (1997)

Then & Now. Teen Titans vol 2 #12-15. (The original four Titan boys find themselves fighting their past selves.) (1997)

Nightwing vol 2 # 25. (Tim and Dick talk and ride on train roofs. Dick has decided to become a cop.) (1998)

Detective Comics # 725 (A heart-to-heart between Bruce and Dick.) (1998)

The Technis Imperative. JLA/Titans #1-3. (1998-1999)

The Titans (1999) # 2. (The start of a new Titans team, Dick tells Superman to give them some room.) (1999)

Nightwing vol 2 # 32–34. (Dick at the Police Academy.) (1999)

Nightwing vol 2 # 35–39. (On a mission from Batman: To take control of Blackgate Prison. Afterwards, he recuperates at Barbara's when her place is attacked.) (1999-2000)

The Titans (1999) #15–16. (The original five Titans try to work out some difficulties.) 2000.

Transference. Batman: Gotham Knights #8-11. (2000)

Nightwing vol 2 # 45-46. (The Hunt for Oracle.) (2000)

Action Comics # 771. (Nightwing and Superman hang out and work together – what's not to like!) 2000

Gods of Gotham. Wonder Woman # 164-167. (2001)

Nightwing vol 2 # 54-58. (Blockbuster, Nightwing's main adversary in Blüdhaven, hires an old enemy of Dick's to deal with the vigilante: Shrike. A character from Robin Year One.) (2001)

Matatoa. Batman: Gotham Knights # 16-17. (Bruce adopts Dick.) (2001)

Who Is Troia? The Titans (1999) # 23-25. (A visit from the Titan's children from the Kingdom Come universe.). (2001)

Retribution. Batman: Gotham Knights # 20-21. (2001)

Nightwing vol 2 # 64. (Nightwing as Santa's elf.) (2001)

Bruce Wayne: Murderer and Bruce Wayne: Fugitive (in several titles). (Dick refuses to believe that Bruce can be a murderer and it causes friction with for instance Tim. Also, a big fight between Dick and Bruce when the latter says he is going to abandon his Bruce identity.) (2002)

Nightwing vol 2 # 75. (Flashback's to Dick's early years with Bruce. Plus the first appearance of Tarantula (Catalina Flores; a controversial figure in Dick's history, she straddled the line between vigilante and villain.)) (2002)

Hush. Batman # 608–619. (# 615 for Dick, but it might be confusing only to read one issue.) (2002-2003)

The Obsidian Age. JLA vol 1 # 68-75. (The Justice League members disappear, Dick leads a new team for a few issues. In # 73, Bruce is quoted:" The only time I ever feel pride is when I look at Nightwing. Sometimes I think he's the only thing I ever did right."). (2002-2003)

Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day # 1-3 (Donna is killed. Dick is devastated and declares that the Titans are finished.) (2003)

Nightwing vol 2 # 80-83. (Deathstroke is in Blüdhaven to kill someone close to Dick. Bruce asks when he will quit the force, Dick wants to stay as a cop, but when he saves Amy Rohrbach, she recognizes that Dick is Nightwing and fires him.) (2003)

Nightwing vol 2 # 86. (Dick, forced to rest after being injured, solves crimes on America's Most Wanted and drives Barbara up the wall.) (2003)

The Outsiders vol 3 # 1 (Roy talks Dick, who dissolved the Titans after Donna's death, into leading a new team, promising they will not be a family.) (2003)

Nightwing vol 2 # 87-100. (Definitely one of the darkest periods points in Dick's life pre-Flashpoint. Tarantula breaks up him and Barbara. Blockbuster destroys his circus, his home and kills people just for talking to Dick. Tarantula kills Blockbuster and Nightwing is too exhausted to prevent it, and afterwards, she rapes him (# 93). Not necessarily an arc I would recommend to read, but fans discuss it a lot.) (2003-2004)

The Outsiders vol 3 # 11 (Roy is angsting about going back to the hero business after narrowly surviving being shot, sparring and heart-to-heart with Dick follows.) (2004)

Under the Hood. Batman # 635-641, 645-650, Annual # 25. (2004-2006)

Nightwing Year One. Nightwing vol 2 # 101-106. (I honestly don't care much for this story, but it's good to know that it's one of several retellings of how Dick became Nightwing.) (2005)

Supergirl (2005) # 3 (Supergirl has a huuuge crush on Nightwing... ) (2005)

Silent partner. The Outsiders vol 3 # 21-23. (Dick goes ballistic when he realizes Batman has been funding the Outsiders, Roy admits Batman has been feeding him information. Only it wasn't Batman – it was Deathstroke in disguise.) (2005)

DC Special: The Return of Donna Troy # 1-4. (2005)

Nightwing vol 2 # 107–117. (Dick leaves Nightwing, starts working for the mob and trains Deathstroke's daughter. I think the author has some kind of resolution to the crisis Dick had gone through the last years in mind, but Infinite Crisis got in the way. Blüdhaven is destroyed in a nuclear explosion.)

Infinite Crisis. (DC had planned to let Dick die, he is central to the story even if he's not very visible.) (2005-2006)

Targets. Nightwing vol 2 # 125-128. (Dick hunts for a day job in New York and gets buried alive, which leads to some retrospection on his behalf. There's also fights with a guy with a weaponized armour.) (2007)

The Brave and the Bold # 15. Nightwing and Hawkman. (Deadman, inside Hawkman, says that Dick Grayson is the one guy that every crimefighter trusts.) (2007)

Outsiders: Five of a Kind – Nightwing/Boomerang. (It ends with Batman telling Dick: "Go back to the good fight, Dick. Leave the bad fight to us.") (2007)

Wrath Child. (A story from when Dick was fairly new as Nightwing.) Batman Confidential # 13-16. (2008)

Freefall. Nightwing vol 2 # 140–146. (Dick starts freefalling as a new hobby; Bruce is not pleased. And he gets a new daytime job, as a museum curator. Oh, and there's Talia al Ghul, too.) (2008)

Robin # 175. (Some fun panels with flashbacks with Dick and Tim.) (2008)

The Great Leap. Nightwing vol 2 # 147–151. (Two-Face wants Nightwing to save a life.) (2008-2009)

Titans (2008) # 10. (Dick leaves the Titans because he needs to go back to Gotham and "take care of my other family." (2009)

Nightwing vol 2 # 152-153. (That time when Ra's al Ghul called Dick detective. And Dick packed up and left New York to move back to Gotham.) (2009)

Batman # 682. (Just for the line about how Dick made colour come into their monochrome lives ;-) ) (2009)

Detective Comics # 85, Batman # 684 (Dick mourning Bruce) (2009)

The Secret Six # 9. (Some of the members of the Secret Six feel they should be the new Batman.) (2009)

Battle for the Cowl # 1-3. (2009)

#ash-devito #Dick Grayson #Nightwing #Robin #Batman #Richard Grayson

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