#And no I don’t think Bruce’s moral code is good

[thelesbianthespianposts]

“Jason’s so rebellious”, “he’s the problem child” bro is NOT. He THINKS he is. But if anything he’s the kiss ass child trying to seem cool and rebellious. He’ll blow up a building and immediately be like “did Bruce see that?” “Did he see how rebellious I am??” “What’d he say???”. Rebellious my ass.

#He’s not really the cool antihero the fandom and even some comics claim he is #When dick rebelled he cut off Bruce however he could to be with the titans #not a expert on Tim but I think he did something similar or at least did the basic #Spray paint and skateboarding type of rebellion #But no Jason has some dumbass ideology which just happens to clash perfectly with his dads #And also gives him room to monologue about how he has daddy issues #(He doesn’t) #(At least not from Bruce) #All he does is care what Bruce thinks #In a strange filial version of the girl asking if the guy she’s “not into” mentioned her #And no I don’t think Bruce’s moral code is good #But people claiming Jason’s is better don’t understand that #“I just kill bad people” #Isn’t a sustainable solution #And can be heavily influenced by personal biases #Jason todd #i guess it’s kinda #anti jason todd #batman #red hood #dc comics

[daydreamerdrew]

What If? (1977) #2 — “What if the Hulk had the brain of Bruce Banner?”

#hmm #the Hulk’s head hurting when he tries to think isn’t a new thing #but I think him being compelled to think anyway because Bruce inside him is trying to communicate with the Hulk and/or escape is new #I definitely agree that the Hulk finds concentrating difficult and stressful under most circumstances #but he has been shown to be good at it in certain situations #like when he’s alone in the wilderness and so is in a calm place where he has the time to think something through #that other people generally wouldn’t need as much time to work out #or on a task he’s really personally invested in like when he was so dedicated to searching for a baby deer that he got attached to #that he didn’t notice all of the people screaming in terror and running away from him #I don’t think that every instance ever of the Hulk ‘thinking’ is because of Bruce #like I think those experiences I brought up are solely the Hulk’s #but I think that in addition to that he also experiences compulsions/feelings that he doesn’t understand from Bruce #though I don’t think Bruce has ever been portrayed as mentally influenced by the Hulk before #(likely because he’s framed as the ‘real’ or ‘original’ persona) #also I do take issue with whenever the Hulk does something good and that’s attributed to the human buried within him or whenever #like the Hulk’s been portrayed with his own moral code and sense of right and wrong #I don’t think it really makes sense to not allow him to own actions that are consistent with it #marvel #bruce banner #my posts #comic panels

[talxns]

omg just came across that post and pls pls share ur thoughts on 60s brudick

Don’t mind if I do!!!

Batman (1966-68) is such an odd little treasure-trove of content when you look at it with a particular lens. Of course there are meta aspects of the show that kind of support the subtle brudick reading– the addition of the Aunt Harriet character to create some kind of buffer between the two guys constantly being together, and the addition of Barbara Gordon in season 3 to try to add a (kind of?) consistent love interest for Bruce so he didn’t seem as bored with women as he kind of gave off since he barely spent any time with anyone who wasn’t Dick. And Dick’s actor Burt Ward supposedly stated in his autobiography that Bruce and Dick could be interpreted as lovers.

Compared to modern interpretations, the characters of Bruce and Dick themselves are lighter, which complements the “campy” humorous tone of the show. Reference to Bruce’s parents happens only once, and Dick’s backstory is never addressed. This Batman doesn’t prowl around every night, tormented by his demons and pushing his loved ones away. He only goes out as Batman when Commissioner Gordon rings for him, always brings along Robin, and a majority of Batman and Robin’s crime-fighting takes place during the day.

This Bruce Wayne is kind of a do-no-wrong character. He’s never rude, he’s insistently law-abiding, and he’s never shown doing anything truly debaucherous, and the implication is that he just… Never does anything debauched ever. He never smokes or drinks alcohol, but not as much as a virtue of control as it is upholding a strict moral code against it. (He will order juice or more commonly milk when any kind of drinking is expected). This Bruce is kind of insufferable in his insistence of upholding good moral standing, and will take precious time to teach a moral lesson to Dick whenever he can think of one. And basically Bruce Wayne and Brucie Wayne are one in the same in this universe. His demeanor in public is the same as his demeanor in private.

Dick is similarly one dimensional. He is a goody-two-shoes like his guardian, though he has his outbursts of frustration which Bruce immediately tamps down on with some good old fashioned moral instruction. Dick will never fight Bruce’s word, will instantly agree with everything Bruce tells him, and will stroke his ego afterwards (Gosh, Bruce, you’re right! x100). This Dick is an excellent student, has many different hobbies (some of which he is very much not good at but Bruce still insists that he practice them), but doesn’t seem to be very cool compared to his classmates. He’s actually rather awkward and embarrassing when he tries. It’s probably because he’s spending all his time with Bruce, like a vicious cycle of relying on Bruce because he can’t relate to the cool kids at school and not being a cool kid because he’s hanging out with Bruce all day lol.

In Bruce and Dick’s freetime, they are together. There are maybe 4 or 5 instances out of 120 episodes where Bruce and Dick are not spending their day together before Gordon calls. It’s delightfully absurd. It’s certainly for the reasons to ease the plot, so they can be in the same place to start the episode’s story, but it gives the impression that Bruce Wayne almost exclusively spends all his time with Dick Grayson.

The show does a good job illustrating just how incredibly loyal and devoted to one another these characters are.

In an episode taking place at Dick’s high school, the other students tease him for being the ward of a millionaire, and Dick gets pretty defensive over it. In one of the rare instances that Dick is not with Bruce (on a date with a classmate), he is called by him, and dumps a milkshake on his date so he can have an excuse to go to Bruce. (Instances of Dick not being afforded a normal dating life during his teens and young adulthood because Bruce needs him is kind of a long running theme with these characters, isn’t it.)

There are a couple episodes where Bruce refuses to fight against brainwashed Dick (though there is an episode where Dick doesn’t return the favor and punches a brainwashed Bruce after apologizing in advance for it lol)

Bruce is adamant about Dick’s place at his side. Two times, Catwoman feigns innocence and offers to work with Batman as a partner. Bruce always reminds her of Robin being his partner, to which she always offers to kill him, and it always unsurprisingly upsets Bruce.

Bruce states that he would give up his life for Dick and tries to swap places with him when he’s in danger.

Dick is willing to let a villian fall to her death if she doesn’t cure Bruce of a spell she put him under. He is willing to let her dangle on the ledge of a tall building if she doesn’t promise to make Bruce normal again. Savage.

In the series, Dick is around 15-16 years old, since at the start he doesn’t have his license and by the end he gets it, and Bruce gives him a shiny red convertible for passing his driving test. You can just tell that when this Dick goes off to college, Bruce is going to be a wreck without him. What is he going to do all day now!?

Basically, aside from the 1943 black and white Batman serial, this was the first time we see a live action Bruce and Dick. And they are shown in all their devoted glory. In my opinion, this is the best live action interpretation of Dick and Bruce together (Sorry Schumacher fans), even if it’s very silly and dated. Kinda sad that there aren’t many options to choose from.

And since this Batman works on kind of an on-call system and isn’t vehemently patrolling the streets every night, isn’t really tormented by guilt and grief and never-ending duty, it’s really easy to extrapolate lazy evenings where Bruce and Dick are just simply enjoying each other’s company. Drinking tea and milk, reading poetry, and not being able to stay away from each other. In this universe, Aunt Harriet would never catch on, but Alfred would know and give them his blessing. Dick would push for more physical affection, Bruce would chastise him and teach him some moral lesson about abstinence, Dick would immediately fold and they’d go back to their hand holding and closed mouth kisses. That’s just the way this Bruce and Dick are. And it’s kind of refreshing in a pure and soft way.

I urge anyone to give the 60s Batman series a shot. Yeah, it’s goofy, yeah, Bruce and Dick seem out of character compared to modern interpretations, but hey, they are still valid interpretations, and it’s easy to see just how transparently they care for each other.

#i was so excited to get this ask!!! #thank you so much!! #brudick #i love talking about the odd little moments in that show #batman 66

[jasontoddenthusiastt]

I think fans want Jason to be a good person or be becoming one. To have a character that is well meaning and compassionate but decided murder is ok and to stand against main heroes who’s beliefs and actions go against the people he cares about and wants in his life. It’s confusing for people. People want their fav characters to be happy. But Jason can’t have his family’s support and follow his moral code. He’s cares about people and Gotham, and he’s an asshole who kills. It’s messy. It’s not black and white. I don’t even think Jason cares about being a good person or in the right anymore. I think he cares about what will save the most people instead.

Oh my goodness gracious I’ve been bamboozled

Batman’s definition of Good is not synonymous with absolute good/right no matter how much dc insists it is. Torture, battery/assault, surveillance, those are all condemnable actions too. I won’t get into the exhausting and frankly dumb debate of comic book morality wrt killing because I’ve already reblogged plenty of posts from other people who explained my thoughts on the matter far better than I ever have the patience to sit down and articulate. I also just think the notion that there’s something to be done about fictional characters who kill nazis and senseless murderers is stupid. Jason’s point is that the “main” heroes’ sanitized definition of right has its unaddressed holes and flaws which ultimately result in more preventable fatalities, and that he’ll work to correct those missing spots.

He doesn’t not care about doing what’s right. What he doesn’t care about (at least during his Winick characterization) is whether Batman thinks he’s right or wrong, because he sees the flaws in Batman’s methodology (and since he has a mind of his own). Batman’s methods alone cannot address Arkham’s revolving door and the rogues that come and go through those doors who have no intention (or capability from the doylist pov) of ever changing or undergoing redemption. Jason knows that he’s minimizing the number of preventable deaths by killing his targets, typically Characters Who Simply Do Fucked Up Shit Just Because, Why The Fuck Not?

Secondly, Jason is compassionate … to a fault. That was his fatal flaw. If he wasn’t so hell-bent on saving his potential birth mother he just met from that bomb despite everything she did to him prior, he could have protected himself instead, however slim his odds of survival were. What about his relationship with his other parents? He was a caregiver during his early childhood years for Catherine, until her death. Even mature adults who are financially stable find being a caregiver to a dying parent to be extremely burdensome on their bodies and minds, but he never complained about it or resented Catherine for being unable to care for him. Despite how none of his parents have really been what he needed them to be, he doesn’t blame them for their failings, and even continues to think highly of them (Bruce included).

And post-death? Enter Lost Days. Despite being dead set on plotting his revenge on Bruce, he constantly sidelines this in order to save other victims who are helpless like he once was. His own anger, trauma, and mission don’t remain his priority. (Sound familiar? Something something my own trauma above my son’s, mission above all else, etc.). Why would he waste precious time and risk his own life to do this if he wasn’t empathetic towards these victims or didn’t care about doing the right thing. He is simultaneously horribly traumatized and full of rage, and also incapable of ignoring what’s happening to victims around him (even as he claims that it’s indeed not his priority). And in that same vein, the entire premise of his rebirth outlaws run was that he doesn’t care if the public views him as a villain, an outlaw, so long as he can protect Gotham. And anyway where is this portrayal of him not caring about being in the right anymore. Almost every modern Jason story is about him grappling with where he stands with Bruce/Batman. During the early 2000s was probably the last time he did not care (hello, tentatodd??).

Jason has very evidently been portrayed as a kind and compassionate character. He is also simultaneously a calculated killer who doesn’t hesitate to kill when he deems necessary, and does so without remorse. It’s called being a Complex Character With An Edge™ that as you said, people so often claim to love. However when he fulfills that latter part, that seems to upset people because “killing bad”, and they then try to shave off and round out all his edges and claim he shouldn’t be that angry. In that case I guess you should just stick to liking traditional one-dimensional characters instead of claiming to like Jason but then encouraging his character assassination attempt by dc. Lol.

Lastly, who said anything about the batfam making Jason happy? Just because he’s written nowadays to want acceptance from Bruce (a shoddy attempt at forcing a non-existent nuclear batfamily), doesn’t mean that it’s a sound decision or that it does his character justice. I certainly don’t empathize with the idea that Jason needs the family’s approval or acceptance to be happy. (And anyway he has enough outlets for angst and pain aside from the batfam hello explore his other sources of trauma and do more deep dives into how he thinks when he’s alone). I don’t want them to magically make up and become one big happy family. This is not disney Lol. Besides, there are plenty of stories from dc that have that type of “wholesome” (hate that word utilization) characterization for Jason (Li’l Gotham, Tiny Titans, wfa, and even new stuff like the brave and the bold mini) and that is sufficient imo. Jason fans who are invested in the character deserve accurate, nuanced characterization and well-written stories, whether they be from his robin days (e.g., Batman: The Cult) or as red hood.

#fellas. ya know what else is wholesome? avenging your own death #you can have moments of ‘reconciliation’ or peace but still maintain a strained relationship which is far more realistic #‘he’s an asshole that kills’ and Bruce is an asshole who doesn’t kill. lol. #you can’t claim Jason’s conflicted and disturbed but go on to say Bruce is perfectly sane those two are mutually exclusive #also please realize that a character acting out of anger does not mean they lack compassion. #implying that he doesn’t care about doing the right thing is saying the same thing that person said; #that he doesn’t actually know what he’s doing. that he hasn’t thought through his moral stance. #‘Jason didn’t put any thought into anything he did in utrh he’s just a poor mentally ill lost soul who needs the batfam’s love to heal 💔’ #🤝 #‘jokers just a poor victim of society 😔 he just needs someone to understand him and maybe one day he’ll heal and realize he’s wrong’ #what they both have in common is that they’re misunderstood in opposite directions #the joker doesn’t have a point to prove. there’s no deeper meaning behind what he does. everything is a joke to him. #he isn’t unaware of right vs wrong lmfao #jason todd #dc #asks #my post #and I think you’re implying that he’s utilitarian based on that last part but I don’t think he is #user mintacle posted a few metas regarding that and again they explain it much better than I prob could #anyway it isn’t difficult to understand his character if you know why you like him and you actually read his stories #that post specifically was from someone who clearly said they did not read the comic so. technically they’re on their own wavelength #edit: grammar

[boyfridged]

i’ve been thinking a lot about what is so unique and appealing about 80s robin jay’s moral standing that got completely lost in plot later on. and i think a huge part of it is that in a genre so focused on crime-fighting, his motivations and approach don’t focus on the category of crime at all. in fact, he doesn’t seem to believe in any moral dogma; and it’s not motivated by nihilism, but rather his open-heartedness and relational ethical outlook.

we first meet (post-crisis) jay when he is stealing. when confronted about his actions by bruce he’s confident that he didn’t do anything wrong – he’s not apologetic, he doesn’t seem to think that he has morally failed on any account. later on, when confronted by batman again, jay says that he’s no “crook.” at this point, the reader might assume that jay has no concept of wrong-doing, or that stealing is just not one of the deeds that he considers wrong-doing. yet, later on we see jay so intent on stopping ma gunn and her students, refusing to be implicit in their actions. there are, of course, lots of reasons for which we can assume he was against stealing in this specific instance (an authority figure being involved, the target, the motivations, the school itself being an abusive environment etc.), but what we gather is that jay has an extremely strong sense of justice and is committed to moral duty. that's all typical for characters in superhero comics, isn't it? however, what remains distinctive is that this moral duty is not dictated by any dogma – he trusts his moral instincts. this attitude – his distrust toward power structures, confidence in his moral compass, and situational approach, is something that is maintained throughout his robin run. it is also evident in how he evaluates other people – we never see him condemning his parents, for example, and that includes willis, who was a petty criminal. i think from there arises the potential for a rift between bruce and jay that could be, have jay lived, far more utilised in batman comics than it was within his short robin run.

after all, while bruce’s approach is often called a ‘philosophy of love and care,’ he doesn’t ascribe to the ethics of care [eoc] (as defined in modern scholarship btw) in the same way that jay does. ethics of care ‘deny that morality consists in obedience to a universal law’ and focus on the ideals of caring for other people and non-institutionalized justice. bruce, while obviously caring, is still bound by his belief in the legal system and deontological norms. he is benevolent, but he is also ultimately morally committed to the idea of a legal system and thus frames criminals as failing to meet these moral (legal-adjacent) standards (even when he recognizes it is a result of their circumstances). in other words, he might think that a criminal is a good person despite leading a life of crime. meanwhile, for jay there is no despite; jay doesn't think that engaging in crime says anything about a person's moral personality at all. morality, for him, is more of an emotional practice, grounded in empathy and the question of what he can do for people ‘here and now.’ he doesn’t ascribe to maxims nor utilitarian calculations. for jay, in morality, there’s no place for impartiality that bruce believes in; moral decisions are embedded within a net of interpersonal relationships and social structures that cannot be generalised like the law or even a “moral code” does it. it’s all about responsiveness. 

to sum up, jay's moral compass is relative and passionate in a way that doesn't fit batman's philosophy. this is mostly because bruce wants to avoid the sort of arbitrariness that seems to guide eoc. also, both for vigilantism, and jay, eoc poses a challenge in the sense that it doesn't create a certain 'intellectualised' distance from both the victims and the perpetrators; there's no proximity in the judgment; it's emotional.

all of this is of course hardly relevant post-2004. there might be minimal space for accommodating some of it within the canon progression (for example, the fact that eoc typically emphasises the responsibility that comes with pre-existing familial relationships and allows for prioritizing them, as well as the flexibility regarding moral deliberations), but the utilitarian framework and the question of stopping the crime vs controlling the underworld is not something that can be easily reconciled with jay’s previous lack of interest in labeling crime. 

#fyi i'm ignoring a single panel in which jay says 'evil wins. he chose the life of crime' because i think there's much more nuance to that #as in: choosing a life of crime to deliberately cause harm is a whole another matter #also: inb4 this post is not bruce slander. please do not read it as such #as i said eoc is highly criticised for being arbitrary which is something that bruce seeks to avoid #also ethics of care are highly controversial esp that their early iterations are gender essentialist and ascribe this attitude to women #wow look at me accidentally girl-coding jay #but also on the topic of post-res jay. #it's typically assumed that ethics of care take a family model and extend it into morality as a whole #'the ethics of care considers the family as the primary sphere in which to understand ethical behavior' #so #an over-simplification: you are allowed to care for your family over everything else #re: jay's lack of understanding of bruce's conflict in duty as batman vs father #for jay there's no dilemma. how you conduct yourself in the familial context determines who you are as a person #also if you are interested in eoc feel free to ask because googling will only confuse you... #as a term it's used in many weird ways. but i'm thinking about a general line of thought that evolves into slote's philosophy #look at me giving in and bringing philosophy into comics. sorry. i tried to simplify it as much as possible #i didn't even say anything on criminology and the label and the strain theories. #i'm so brave for not info-dumping #i said even though i just info-dumped #jay.zip #jay.txt #dc #fatal flaw #core texts #robin days

[ghost-of-ao3]

So this is going to be a list of Tim centric fics. To be clear I haven’t read very many of the comics but I love both fanon wet cat Tim and Canon feral jackass Tim. I love all the flavors of Tim and I feel like my fic recs will show that so be mindful. I’ll also try to warn for triggers as I list them but I probably won’t get everything so please please be mindful of the tags and keep yourself safe! That said here’s the list in no particular order.

The Definition of Valor by nerdpoe 10,106 words and 1 chapter. This fic is about Tim having been blinded by Ra’s after his Widower attack is forced to adapt and overcome the difficulties that comes with losing his sight. It’s a good mix of funny and serious and I personally adore the way it’s written.

The Blood on Our Hands by KelpieCodyne 8,207 words and 1 chapter. This one is about Tim getting blasted by a spell meant for the person with the highest kill count. I like how Bruce has to grapple with his kids morality and with the fact that many of them have killed before and I really love how his siblings step up and bring out their own problems with his strict moral code. If that’s something you enjoy you might like this one.

Loch & Key by jayburb (toothpasty) 12,514 words and 3 chapters. This one does have Tim being abused by his parents so TW for that. The fic itself is about a legend of Loch Gotham. It features Tim’s interactions with the Loch and the vibes are excellent. I really really loved reading this one.

In Service by smilebackwards 12,730 words and 3 chapters. This is about how Tim ends up apprenticing under Alfred instead of becoming Robin and it changes more than you would think. I really adore the interactions between Tim and Alfred and watching him learn from him. It also re-frames his relationship with Bruce which is deeply sweet because the man has an adoption addiction that can’t be stopped.

Baby Birds and Bat Caves by IzzyMRDB 30,113 words and 20 chapters. Tim goes into the cave system after a storm and it makes him weirder than he already was. It’s based on Welcome to Nightvale but Gotham style and is very fun to read. I adore watching how Tim interacts with the forces that be while the bats are panicking over a child running around Gotham and reporting on the oddities of the city. It’s just a good good fic. TW for Joker’s attack on Barbara and Jason. These are still mentioned and while I don’t find the references overly graphic others might disagree.

Growing Old with You by LilliputianDuckling This is a series with 12 works currently and 110,554 words. It’s a Timkon series where Tim and Kon are childhood friends with good father Lex Luthor, identity shenanigans, and just the struggles of growing up and falling in love. I really cannot recommend this enough if you’re a Timkon enjoyer. There is some smut in the later works and some of the vague homophobia of being 12 year old boys in the early 2010s era but nothing that’s like hate crimes, there’s also mentions of peer pressure with regards to sex but nothing happens. The warnings being said I really connected to the characters in this fic and it just felt very real in a way that was so good. This is probably my favorite Timkon series and like I said I cannot recommend it enough and no words I say will do it justice.

Where Bats and Birds Roost by Mouse_in_this_house this is a series with 26 works and 204,783 words. For warnings There is a fic in here that centers on Sexual harrasment, attempted assault and stalking all done by an original character, Ra’s also harasses Tim So for this series please be mindful of heavy themes in regards to sexual assault. There’s other warnings but I can’t remember them all so please be mindful of the tags and do what you need to do to keep yourself safe. I cannot describe exactly what this series is but it’s a focus on Tim, the Batfam and the Core Four. Tim is so Tim in this series, he’s feral and a little unhinged but also scarily competent. It feels like Tim coming into his own and building a home, building safety net after safety net and making his own. Meanwhile people are worried about him and are dedicated to trying to work it out. That and the Bats think there’s a new player on the rise and the Batfam has no idea it’s Tim. Just all in all a really cool series.

Damian Drake by InkpotSprite 6,962 words and ? Chapters. Damian gets told to find his dad without being told who it is and ends up thinking his dad is Jack Drake. I adore it when Damian ends up imprinting on Tim like a baby duck. This is very sweet and it’s very funny to watch Damian and Dick be at odds. Just a very funny lovely fic.

Alone Together by SpaceWall 22,908 words and 4 chapters. This features Batfam heavily and isn’t exactly Tim centric but I had to add it to the list because this idea for platonic soulmates changed my brain chemistry. Your soulmates are with you your whole life, as invisible forces. I cannot describe this one but it’s really really good.

The Threads That Bind by SpaceWall 5,921 words and 1 chapter. Tim is practiced in thread magic, when Jason attacks Titans tower he sees that magic first hand. I personally love fics where Tim has a special little thing that’s uniquely his, this one does that really well as it describes his relationship with his small form of magic.

Into the Brighter Night by shoalsea 162,894 words and 12 Chapters. This is a fic about Tim that takes place mostly when Tim isn’t there. It shows how his family and friends view him without him being explicitly present for most of the fic and it’s done incredibly like I’m still losing my mind over this fic. Young Justice is heavily present and is my everything. It starts with a threat against Robin and then spirals out from there. I highly recommend this one just showstopping. TW for sexual assault being brought up, it's not graphic but still be mindful.

Maybe with a Shift in Planets by SilberSkiesAtMidnigh 4,557 words and 1 chapter. For warnings there are mentions of Cassandra being abused by her father. This is a fic where Tim finds Cass on a roof before they are found by Bruce. I love how this is focused on Cass’ POV and how it makes sense of the world in her eyes. And I love the way she views Tim Just really lovely work.

To Eat Well by SilverSkiesAtMidnight 4,599 words and 1 chapter. This is a fic about Tim but it focuses mostly on Jason. When Tim is kidnapped the family is left to cope as well as they know how. Jason stress bakes. I’m adding this fic in for a few reasons, one it’s really good and super well written and two the focus is Tim being missing and the love and concern the others have for him.

Surveillance by smilebackwards this is a series with 4 works and 29,187 words. This is a Civilian Tim Au where Jason never dies and it changes things. This series is really good, I love Tim arriving late or early to the Batfam and this fic delivers it so well. Just because he isn’t Batman trained doesn’t mean he’s not competent and just really incredible as a character. A lovely series.

#Tim Drake fics

[belle-of-a-time]

Because the rot consumes here’s

Batfam-Soul Eater AU

Bruce is a weapon and he’s a gun. And he fucking hates it like Despises it

Talia turned him into a death scythe but lord death never makes him transform. He’s just a strategist and a teacher now.

Talia is a witch but she hid it until after she made Bruce a death scythe.

Also Bruce’s like honor code is a little different here since “no killing” is kinda silly when the only reason the academy exists is to kill kishins he thinks A: everyone is constantly teetering on the edge of madness all the time. And B: it is a moral failing if you succumb to the madness. Which is why he didn’t go after the joker after Jason, because doing so would have been giving in to the madness.

Dick is a meister

He bounced back and forth between Barbara who is a grappling hook and also a meister and Kori who is some sort of lava cannon or something.

Barbara got Severely hurt during a fight while wielding Jason and had to stop for a while. She’s back at it though, helping Bruce as a strategist and as like “Mission Control” Bruce is guiding her to take over for him someday.

Dick now fights with Wally who is his like electric escrima sticks because speedster=lightning in my mind.

Jason is also a gun but he thinks it’s Very cool. Barbara was with Jason when they were assigned to take down the joker who is a kishin egg. He killed Jason and severely injured Babs.

Jason was revived by Talia because obviously, using the black blood and he was overtaken by the madness for a while before being pulled back towards sanity by his friends.

Hes partnered with Roy now who Does have A daughter Lian. Teen pregnancy stuff. You get it.

Tim is a meister. He can resonate with anyone but he really struggled to find a weapon he really clicked with. So he fought by directing his soul wavelength for a while.

He met Bernard who is a bo staff and they clicked and are now partners.

Steph used to fight by herself using a non person weapon, no one is really sure where she got it. But now she and Cassandra are partners and No One but Steph and maybe Bruce and Barbara know what kind of weapon she is all anyone can tell is that she’s something small, she can also see soul wavelengths.

There’s a good chance though that when you see Steph alone that Cass is actually transformed and concealed somewhere on her person

Duke is a weapon who fights alone (like Justin law) I don’t know what kind of weapon but it’s something weird and COOL he’s got to be really super cool. It definitely glows and he can like “enchant” (not really the word I’m looking for but it works) it with his soul wavelength to like resonate/boost his own attacks.

Duke is the closest to becoming a death scythe of the batfam.

Damian is PISSED that he wasn’t born a weapon. He really really wants to be a death scythe, so it bums him out that he can’t.

I think it’s really funny if he Is actually a weapon but he’s even more repressed than Maka so literally no one knows.

That or Talia tried to ensure he’d be a witch and it backfired somehow and locked away his weapon transformation instead.

He’s partnered with Jon who is a sword

Damian is absolutely determined to make Jon into the youngest death scythe ever

Jon does not particularly care either way he definitely wants to become a death scythe but isn’t super bothered by timeline but if that’s what Damian wants god damnit he’s going to try his best!! Jon is very Tsubaki core to me. They are the tsu/blackstar combo of the batfam.

Back to Jason, Bruce understands Jason’s struggle with the madness and just really really wants his son to talk to him but he never ever gives ANY indication that he’d react well or even Want to talk to Jason about anything. Especially when he keeps reacting so high and mighty and preachy when Jason is Worse at dealing with the madness than anyone else.

Other—non batfam—headcanons

Clark and Lois are a death scythe/ meister combo In that order. They’re off doing shit constantly and Kon ends up basically taking care of Jon most of the time.

J’onn is a teacher (also a weapon) at the academy in my mind the like struggle with madness is split off onto Bruce but the like rest of stein is in J’onn mixed with Sid’s like dad energy.

J’onn is the teacher that Everyone goes to for advice about basically anything.

Also J’onn is a weapon who can change form like Tsubaki can but he’s got A Lot more forms. He can see wavelengths. And attack with his own wavelength. He’s basically super overpowered but he hardly ever has to fight.

Barry is a death scythe nuff said

All of the like magic users in the justice league including aquaman because… fish. Are witches

Zetanna’s witch form/animal form is a lion because she gives me ringmaster vibes? Idk.

Constantine’s animal form is the wettest saddest rat you’ve ever seen. It’s also huge. Also he is Literally trading off pieces of his soul and he looks SUPER freaky to anyone who can see souls

The main villain of the arc is the league of assassins. Run by witches. The academy and the justice league witches team up to take them down. They’re trying to turn the joker into a full blown kishin using the black blood which is a stand in for the Lazarus pits. I’m thinking like full on Pits of the stuff and everyone has to donate blood to the pits every time they walk past. All these assassins are Covered in self inflicted cuts so they can donate their blood.

When people displease Ra’s they get bled out into the black blood. Like draining an animal style. So ominously hanging over the pit by the ankles bleeding out into it are like a lot of bodies. And in the center in like a cage half submerged in the blood is the joker and they bring him all the souls after the people bleed to death.

They do kidnap J’onn at some point, also Tim, and Bernard, and idk Lian for the drama

So rescue mission! Also kill the joker! Is the main finale.

#batfam #DC #crossover #soul eater #DC as soul eater #headcanon #long post

[romanticizingmurder]

another thing about bad faith readings, using another jason example: 

i saw someone recently say “jason fans get mad at me because i say utrh jason was a bad person” and i can pretty much say with 90% certainty this didn’t happen, not like that.

because i am the most apologisty jason apologist. i follow and have sought out other people who fall into the Precious Boy Can Do No Wrong category. and i have never, never, never seen someone unironically say he was morally good in everything in utrh. what i have seen are other people giving bad faith reactions to jason stans saying that:

Jason raises interesting questions about where the moral line is - if you can brutalize and imprison dealers, and be morally right in your comics universe, can you take over the industry to accomplish those goals and still be right? 

Jason is wrong about controlling crime but right about the Joker

Jason is wrong about controlling crime but right about killing predators (all but literally one time I’ve seen this it was with the implication of in fiction only) 

Jason is a mob boss and doing bad things but clearly has goals of controlling crime and limiting the collateral damage of it in the long run

So when you say Jason fans think utrh Jason is a good person? I just don’t believe that. I have literally gone back years into tumblrs reading Jason meta from 2013 and 2016 and now, and I have not once seen anyone endorse every action of his.

So what I think happened is you saw someone say something like “I think the question of controlling crime as a mob boss is really interesting and shows the limitations of what Bruce does” and you thought they were saying Jason was doing good. I think you saw someone say “Jason’s no selling to kids rule shows that he was meant to have a code and reason for what he was doing” and you thought they were saying that makes it okay or is something that should be replicated in real life.

I think you probably read most posts in bad faith and then get shocked when anyone reads yours in anything less than the best of faiths and so shrug it off by telling yourself those other fans just are dumb stans who don’t know about propaganda. 

#jason todd #the you here is both general and a specific vagueing

[olddustorange]

i'm thinking of your post defining the distinctions btwn an UtRH-type of situation happening to dick vs. jason and remembering what winick said (fuckyeahjasontodd(.)tumblr(.)com/post/4453226759/ and comic-commentary(.)tumblr(.)com/post/127896465414/ ) - that if dick had died, then bruce absolutely and definitively would've killed the joker, immediately, no hesitation, etc. and i think this is supported in stories like infinite crisis and even some golden age + silver age batman stories - which is interesting to me because dick would never want bruce to kill, and especially not for his sake!!

JUDD WINICK: But some of that is just Jason fooling himself. The truth is, all of it is based in the fact that Jason is just damaged and tortured and angry with Bruce. And this is a constant revenge upon him.

Jason hates Dick Grayson. He’s the good son; he’s the one that worked out; he’s the one that “Dad” loves best. For me, there’s a philosophy behind Jason and Dick that I haven’t had a chance to play out fully. I don’t think it’s going to play out in this story, because it’s probably not the place for it. But I don’t mind putting the philosophy out there:

One thing that haunts Jason is that he thinks if Dick Grayson who was the one that was about to die, Batman would have saved him.

And worse, if Dick Grayson was murdered, Jason knows that Batman would have killed Joker. He knows that in his heart.

The dark, dark thing for Jason is that he doesn’t feel Bruce’s refusal to take revenge on the Joker is just about Batman’s morals and code that he won’t break. He thinks it’s about him. He thinks that if Dick Grayson was the one who was murdered, Batman would have definitely killed Joker.

JUDD WINICK: Dick, [Jason] also hates, but for entirely different reasons. That’s sort of like [Dick]’s the good son. I think Jason feels superiority to Dick Grayson. It’s behind that Dick’s the goody-two-shoes. That’s an understatement of how he feels. He also understands that Dick Grayson’s never going to be Batman. That’s where the condescension comes in. You’re never going to be Batman, you don’t have that thing, that flaw in your character that makes Batman Batman. He’s like, I know I have that. He thinks he can do better than Batman. I think he looks down at Dick. 

o ur mind is beautiful anon

#SO TRUE #ur ask turned my brain to radio static thinking abt the hesitationlessness abt bruce killing

[yvtro]

So, you brought this up in a recent post "his moral code that focuses on killing off only the worst brand of criminals". I am curious what your stance on this take is then.

Namely, I never felt Jason was over focused on a "Kill the worst criminals" ideology, he's not some Punisher analogue or wasn't in UTRH & the GA Crossover.

Instead, while I do think there's certain figures who he thinks crossed too many lines to be worth keeping around. That is ideology was focused on killing as a power move for control.

IE, he didn't kill those eight lieutenants cos they were particularly immoral, he killed them to establish control over their bosses and gangs.

He kills strategically to accomplish his goals and is largely utilitarian about it, at least in UTRH. This doesn't gloss over his claims of a moralistic element.

IE he left several gangs that primarily exploit children and trafficked people out of his recruitment drive and then killed them all with Onyx that one time.

But as a general rule I always took it that when written in UTRH, his stance was less "I am killing you because its moral" and more "I am killing you because it to my goals."

this is such a multi-layered question, i love it.

i think i hinted at it, but i believe that the focus on the worst criminals is a reading that is more of a wishful thinking interpretation rather than what is actually going on in utrh. and i’m actually sympathetic to it, because it aims to reconstruct the canon to make jay’s characterisation closer to his pre-death personality. it might also be in part based on jason’s monologue in the finale, especially on “i’m not talking about scarecrow or penguin. HIM. just him” bit, but if we want to stay faithful to the text (which i actually don’t. but i am willing to play with it for the time) this is jason’s request for bruce rather than what guides his own actions!

in reality, i agree that jason’s killing in utrh seems to be more strategic. having said that, it being strategic and being part of a plan (a plan that also has some more personal aims) doesn’t mean it’s devoid of moral motivations. and in these terms, i think it’s simply utilitarian rather than based on specific evaluations of each person. and utilitarianism is an ethical theory, even if certain versions of it accommodate treating people as means. so jay might have some extensive plans and commit deeds that seem (and imo are) vile, but it’s all for the “greater good” (sorry for a simplistic and bastardised definition of utilitarianism, but i doubt anyone cares about it here.) so, in short: jason’s murders are supposed to lead to maximising “moral” profit and protection of the innocents. (i would joke here that unfortunately he missed lots of his maths education, but let's be real, his maths is excellent; the problem lays within the theory itself and the twisted in-world reality that dc editorial crafted)

having said so, i'd like to still give credence to a headcanon that even with the case of lieutenants he probably did a thorough check to make sure that they actually “deserved” death, even if i doubt he was very merciful in his judgement. and that’s already my own guess and not something that is visible in the text.

at the same time, while jason’s plan seems extremely calculated, i don’t think at the deepest level this is what he’s getting at in utrh. and i’m not even talking about bruce here and his own emotional needs, because that would require an entire essay; his plan is surely tied to his own emotional trauma (but not stemming only from it, as i said, he does care about gotham to a pathological extent), that most people have to agree with. but here i want to address the ethical layer of the problem.

i talk a lot about jason wanting to fix the world, but when it comes to utrh, this is obviously a certain mental shortcut: what jason thinks is that there’s no way to completely fix the world, but that it’s still within his responsibility to attempt to minimise the harm. you can’t eliminate crime, but you can (as you said) control it. or however he worded it. and i don’t reckon control here is just some personal power trip; i think he genuinely believes this is what has to be done to protect people. it’s a nice bridge in between his natural idealism and cynicism; he says: well, there’s lots of evil in the world and i can’t get rid of all of it. but i have to try to purge as much of it as possible. whatever it takes.

while i'm convinced this is the concept that came to life mostly due to winick’s complete disinterest in jason’s inner life and motivations, and because he tried to make him a perfect foil for bruce, it does bring in some intriguing considerations. if we want to reconcile this reasoning with jason’s og personality and sensitivity, i imagine it would take an unimaginable toll on him. it would be much easier for him to kill in rage, retribution etc., but this is a plan that despite coming from a place of delusional care and hope, requires detachment that is very out of character for him. it stands against everything he was as a robin; it requires him to kill a version of himself. (he can't even attain that detachment till the end, as his monologue is as emotional and true to himself as it gets. but at this point he no longer is just killing a part of himself, he's just killing himself, end of sentence)

this thought is very compatible with what i call the no good deed interpretation btw, according to which he sees his past, vulnerable self as weak, and attempts to leave it behind, while creating his new identity to be untouchable. in a similar manner, he also manipulates his own worldview to make it seem like it’s impossible to help people while caring. this is an intensely paradoxical view, especially that his main motivation is still love, and yet in his eyes it's like a parasite.

it’s also tied to something that makes me think that in the end the utilitarian dimension is not actually the main (sole) feature of his moral disposition in utrh. what is the core of it is self-sacrifice, something that i talk about in this post.

btw this is not what i think the best course of jason’s moral development is. i’m not even deadset on this reading. it’s rather a possible interpretation of canon, that implements a patchwork of different moments in the continuity. and canon is free real estate.

#?? i'm so sorry i just found this in my drafts and it has been there for a whole month? #no idea why i haven't posted it earlier... god. #also idk what the post in question actually was too– #anyway. hm. i feel like i said lots and nothing in particular here. #at the end of the day winick really didn't give much thought to it all and it shows. #my answer is more of a factual analysis of what happens in utrh with a typical freestyle meta divergence in the end btw. #answered #jay meta #dc comics

[iammyowncryptid]

There are a lot of differing explanations for Bruce’s ‘no killing’ rule. There’s one I haven’t heard anyone talk about though. Bruce is canonically autistic. One aspect of autism is a very strong sense of morality and justice. (This doesn’t make autistic people morally superior. Morality is subjective.) This is part of the black and white thinking that autistic ppl experience. Bruce’s no killing, no exceptions is a very black and white way of thinking about morality, especially within the context of darker Batman stories. Bruce wouldn’t actually become a terrible person if he does kill the Joker (I personally hate that theory), but he definitely believes he would. In Batman’s scope of morality, good people kill and bad people don’t. The only thing that separates him from the likes of Joker, according to this moral code, is that Batman doesn’t kill. This is of course, not at all true. Batman is deeply empathetic, and at his core, a good person who just wants to help. However Batman simply cannot see it that way because of his black and white thinking.

This could even help explain his more questionable actions, like reviving the Joker after Nightwing killed him. Like yes, that was a fucked up storyline in the comics. However, I don’t think it was actively malicious. I think Bruce simply could not handle thinking of his son as a killer. He was faced with a challenge to his moral code, and instead of changing his morals, he changed the situation so that Joker was no longer dead, and therefore Dick wasn’t a killer.

It could also add more depth to Batman’s relationship with the Red Hood. Batman spent a long time in denial about the fact that Jason was Red Hood, despite all of the facts. He’s the world’s greatest detective. He really should have worked that out sooner. Batman reacted so aggressively to that situation because he refused to acknowledge that Jason Todd and the Red Hood were the same person. If he acknowledges that fact, he also has to face the fact that Jason has killed people. He’s killed a lot of people, and Bruce can’t reverse that the same way he did for Dick.

Batman does not kill because he sees killing as an objective measure of morality that dictates whether he is a man or a monster. Bruce can’t handle any of his children being killers because he cannot reconcile his own morality with their actions. Bruce cannot handle it, because his children are all good people, and he refuses to see them as anyone else.

#batman #dc #red hood

[fifteenblackcats]

Okay so I recently watched this tik tok about Jason Todd that had some great points about his character. The main thing that interested me was the fact that the person in the video pointed out that Jason feels like a fan fic character. As someone who loves the character and has read all of his comic series, I have to agree.

Tbh it’s not usually the fault of Jason’s character that he feels like a fan fic character, that’s more Dc’s fault. Like when it comes to his own series, they usually don’t have the best writing and can’t really compete with other bat family comic series. Personally I love all of his series, even the New 52 Outlaws series (which I know is a controversial opinion lol), but overall when I recommend Jason’s comics to my friends, I have to literally warn them that the overall writing isn’t good. The only comics of his that I can say that are genuinely good are the Task Force Z comic he was in and the short story from Urban Legends. Basically anything written by anyone besides Scott Lobdell. I personally mainly read Jason Todd comics for his character rather than the quality of the writing.

Back to Dc’s treatment of Jason Todd. I swear I love Dc, but they fuck up their canon so much. Which includes why I think Jason feels like a fan fic character when he really doesn’t have to. A lot of it is tied to Dc’s continuity issues. Personally I don’t have a problem with the fact that two of his friends, Starfire and Roy Harper, are originally Dick Grayson’s friends. I understand why some people may have a problem with it, but in my opinion characters don’t always have to be tied down to friendships with one character for the sake of canon. My main example is how he is a part of the Bat Family. Jason of course will always be Bruce’s son, so in that way it makes sense that he’s with the Bat Family. But with everything else it just doesn’t make sense. Mainly Jason’s morals once he comes back from the dead. He is completely fine with killing criminals, which is why it is very contradictory that Batman would let Jason be a part of the Bat Family. Bruce is very stubborn and very strict about his moral code, so it really doesn’t make sense that he would let Jason operate with the rest of the Bat Family. It’s kinda this reason that I have to say that he feels like a fan fic character. I know that Bruce gets in fights (physical fights too) with Jason about the killing, but Jason in many Bat Family stories is still included in many of the Bat Family comm channels and many Bat Family events. Again I love Jason, but it would really make more sense for his character to be an anti hero who keeps to himself. Technically he does this, but since he’s such a fan beloved character DC always includes him in the Bat Family, even when it doesn’t really make sense for Bruce or Jason.

In recent years since Rebirth, Dc has tried to make canon make sense as to why Jason should be with the Bat Family. Jason’s moral code is slowly changing to being less lethal by using rubber bullets instead of real bullets. So far I guess this works? At least he’s not killing as much anymore, but his morals haven’t really changed. At least in my opinion. It seemed like he mainly agreed to use rubber bullets to stay in Gotham, otherwise Bruce would kick him out of the city. Tbh this seems like a temporary solution to a large issues relating to Jason’s character. He of course can stay an anti hero that kills, but then I think it doesn’t make sense for Jason to be a part of the Bat Family where everyone has a similar moral code to Batman (expect for maybe Kate Kane, but even then it seems like it is very rare for her to decide to kill). Either Dc should create a real character arc to show why Jason wouldn’t want to kill anymore or just separate him completely from the Bat Family. Maybe they could have him be a main vigilante in another nearby city, like how Nightwing is for Bludhaven. Otherwise it does kinda seem like fan fic because it doesn’t really make sense for Jason to work with the Bat Family so closely. Besides the aesthetic of Jason be the edgy anti hero of the Bat Family.

Anyways those are just my thoughts and you don’t have to agree of course. As someone who loves his character, I don’t exactly like saying he feels like a fan fic character, but his poorly written comics (which I still love, but I can be honest with myself) and convenient place with the Bat Family in canon make me feel like he can give fan fic vibes.

Anyways here’s the video that inspired my post:

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRsDGw1R/

#dc comics #batman #dc #batfamily #bruce wayne #batfam #jason todd #red hood #nightwing #kate kane #rant

[actuallylorelaigilmore]

2022 MOVIE OF THE WEEK #35

die hard. can you believe i had never seen this movie until this year’s holiday season? cuz i can’t really believe it. i went through such a bruce willis phase when i was younger, i used to own the dvd set of moonlighting and i watched him on friends and in movies with matthew perry and the fifth element was a classic in my house...somehow this one just escaped me, i think because my mom’s Action Men tastes were very specifically adrian paul and chuck norris. whereas mine can probably be best described as ‘aw shucks schlubby charm,’ dudes who just seem more normal until they are required to be badasses. bruce willis, david harbour...i can’t remember what other actor i realized he reminds me of while watching this, but i know i told leander and was pleased by the realization, so i’m sure there are more examples.

anyway, this was so not on my radar; i didn’t even know what it was about other than through cultural osmosis. when a movie is mentioned as often as this one, you Know It even when you don’t. though there is a specific kind of joy that comes from finally seeing the line ‘yippee ki-yay, motherfucker’ delivered in its original context. that was fun. 

until pretty recently, i didn’t know alan rickman was the antagonist--that was a large part of why i watched. and boy does he make a meal out of this role. a significant chunk of this movie was just me thinking about what a great actor he is in this. his line deliveries are so delicious that i made a mental note just to mention ‘ho...ho...ho.’ as something nobody else could have had as much fun with. i was truly sad when his character finally died, because of course that ending was always going to come, but i didn’t want it to. the mark of a good villain is actually wanting more of them when you’re not supposed to like them in the first place, and he was an excellent villain--clever and funny with his own moral code, perfect to face off against bruce willis’s unexpected hero.

besides alan rickman, the other reason i decided to watch this (with @actuallylukedanes​ and their fiance who had both seen it before) was that it was featured in an episode of you are good, a movie podcast i like, which meant i’d already heard about the plot and figured that might help me enjoy it more. (normally if they discuss movies i intend to watch, i skip those episodes to avoid spoilers, but i never planned to see this one. lol.) anyway, they watched it as one of their christmas picks, and i knew there was a big debate about whether or not it counts as a christmas movie.

now that i’ve seen it, i feel like the debate is settled and it is OBVIOUSLY a christmas movie, no question. it is in my opinion a movie about a bunch of people (including john mcclain) having the worst christmas of their lives, and there was something i found oddly comforting about that. with my shiny new holiday depression this year, i wasn’t in the mood for any holiday movies--but i would rewatch this one every christmas, because like any good christmas movie there is a party and people remember that family is the most important thing. but UNLIKE other christmas movies, it has alan rickman taking his craft super seriously while bruce willis is in his softest and prettiest young phase, which i adore. and things explode.

(i also need us all to move on from this ‘is it a christmas movie?’ debate so people can be converted to the cult of my much more underappreciated christmas fave, batman returns. tim burton said gotham christmas but make it creepy! and michelle pfieffer learned better whip skills than harrison ford just to manifest it. the true spirit of christmas is being reanimated by cats, and using your new nine lives to flirt with a wealthy orphan while seeking vengeance on anyone who wronged you.)

i’m sure i could go on, but you can tell how old this movie is from the poster up there--i was barely ALIVE when this came out, lol. so i am very late to the party and i doubt a ton of people need me going on and on about it. besides alan rickman and bruce willis, i didn’t know most of the cast, but they all did a good job, there was at least one plot thread that didn’t go the way i expected, and i was pleasantly surprised by that. this movie’s racial politics make me reeeeally uncomfortable, but it’s not at all unusual for its time. the one honorable mention i’d give in casting is to the actor i grew up watching on family matters who plays a central role in helping john survive. he’s portrayed as a black hero, but he can’t just be one because he’s john’s emotional support system throughout the movie--no, he has to become a ‘real’ cop again by shooting a guy. at the same time, you have two major comic relief characters, and both are young black men; one driving john’s limo and the other handling technology for the villain. there’s a same sort of ‘balance’ with the movie’s two asian characters, the seemingly kind company owner who’s murdered early on versus a team member of the villain whose role is also tiny.

the movie is also trying to say stuff (or is just accidentally saying stuff based on the era) around post-soviet american perspectives, but i feel like the racial element sticks out way more because it goes uncommented on. like since it’s clearly not something the plot thinks about, these choices are even more noticeable and important because they reflect the buried stuff.

idk, i just have a lot of feelings about the fact that john’s friend over the radio couldn’t be really redeemed unless he used his gun. or about the fact that he and john are both cops in the first place, so even this sort of ‘everyman’ action movie is promoting the idea that while the fbi and other bureaucracy is useless or will even make things worse, good cops are the only hope we have. 

and his marital reconciliation--i basically just threw up my hands with that one, because i don’t think a near-death experience on christmas will automatically save your marriage. but at the same time, if your wife’s problem with you is that you wouldn’t follow her to her new job, and you finally show up there and save a whole building full of people while she’s in it...then yeah, okay, whatever. maybe that’s all it takes. i mean, if i were her, i’d probably be willing to consider applying for jobs back in new york after that anyway. they’ve definitely earned some kind of happy ending.

in conclusion, i loved this movie. it is an action movie classic in the truest sense of how that felt in the 80s and 90s, and it features bruce willis at his finest and alan rickman briefly doing an american accent and a whole very huge lot of broken glass. broken glass is basically a character in this movie. die hard was an excellent christmas choice for me this year and i’m glad i was welcome to join in the watching. :)

#actuallylukedanes #convinced me to start posting my completed reviews even when they're out of chronological order #so here we go! #die hard #2022 motw #bruce willis #alan rickman #i have the best best friend

[mintacle]

I can definitely see the bases of Cass and deontology but I’d be really interested in more analysis if you have time!

Not gonna comment on whether or not I have time, but am I still doing this? Yes. Yes I am.

Deontology is Kant's philosophical theory on morality. Kant believes that we have to treat everyone with respect and human dignity because everyone has the faculties of reason. You respect other's people autonomy and will based on the fact that they have reason and you cannot decide for them what is best for them, and they are allowed to reason for themselves. (Yes, this is a bit problematic when it comes to intellectual disabilities. I'm not going to delve too deep into it on this post, but the ableism of deontology needs to be discussed and solved.)

This means that a deontologist is not allowed to weigh one life against the other or even one life against many. You have to respect the other person's right to live just as you respect the other people. You can not decide for them. So Cass is very strongly against the idea of killing anyone ever, which is not really because she believes that people can get better, but because seeing the pain and anguish of someone dying has filled her so much with the resolve that you just don't do that to another person. Deontology is not about thinking of the effects of your actions (Will this cause more pain or less in the future?), it's about doing the right thing yourself, simply to have done the right thing. You act in the moraly right way and trust that other people will too. But punishment is ok when someone has not acted morally since as a reasonable person they too are aware that they acted wrongly.

This is by no means a whole explanation of deotology but I also really don’t know how I would do that in less than at least five pages, so only mentioned the parts I think matter for Cass.

For her personal code I believe Cass follows a positive law approach just as Bruce does, since she too understands the weight of the symbol of the bat and prioritizes embodying those virtues. She will do everything she can to be there where needed and be the truest personification of heroism she can. She does have absolute laws about right and wrongs and I would in general say that Cass is very reliable and predictable in her opinion. And that’s a good thing for a hero! You don’t want a civillian who feels that they cannot asses whether you will really help them or not. She will always help. And she will always be true to the meaning of the bat symbol.

#cassandra cain #ask answered #I'm a bit unsure about making a post on cass since I just started reading batgirl #so if I really misunderstood somthing its ok to let me know! I might want to edit the post then. #thx for the ask! #I'm still gonna elaborate on Dick and Jason too because I want to but that might happen tomorrow

[persephoniist]

Thoughts about Red Hood

Okay something that really bothers me about utrh is that Jason is supposed to be a foil to the flaws of Bruce’s moral code (no killing blablabla). We see him kill a lot of bad guys along the way, pissing off the russian mafia, random guys, etc etc and just disrupting the criminal underworld in general which in the narrative is cool, Jason wouldn’t be such a compelling character if he was framed as a bad guy and it wouldn’t make sense with his background as a Robin either for him to be outright bad

Jason says it over and over, that he’s willing to do what Bruce is not, and that’s using violence and fear as a tool to fight criminals. And I think it’s a great that this is the conclusion he reaches, he was killed by one of the worst criminals of Gotham and suffered the consequences of something that “could have” been solved a long time ago if Bruce had killed the Joker in the past, in this regard I think Jason is both the consequence of Bruce’s moral code as well as the “solution”, if u can call it that.

The thing that utrh and other red hood comics I’ve skimmed fails to address is the downside of Jason’s violent methods against criminals

more often than not jason simply keeps killing or just leaves killing behind, but there’s no logical train of thought to his redemption in the last case. I’ve seen a lot of people complain about this, and about how Jason should have stayed a villain, but I don’t think the redemption itself is the issue, it’s just how it’s handled, aka poorly

utrh establishes that jason’s methods, although not of bruce’s taste (and let’s admit it he looks a little deranged with the sadistic side he shows sometimes), make sure that, even if not completely wiped out, drug dealers don’t sell to kids or other vulnerable people. that’s good, it’s why jason is an antihero, not a villain. Low level criminals don’t stir shit up and he controls the worst side of the harm they can do with an iron fist, he isn’t a violent, crazy maniac that resorts to violence without reason

red hood may now rule the criminal underworld, yes, half of them are also out for his head, also true, but he’s been skillful enough not to get in harm’s way and we’ve seen jason avoid danger with careful preparation (at times, others not) so readers don’t exactly need to worry about his wellbeing

my point then, is how red hood becoming a symbol affects the gotham he lives to protect

with time red hood becomes as a well known vigilante as batman, he’s efficient, he’s smart, he gets the job done, and for such a crime filled city like gotham, you can only be grateful for that, but then maybe those kids he protect start admiring the red hood, maybe they look up to him, how tough he is, how he takes down criminals where batman can’t. jason doesn’t care enough about himself to worry about becoming a blood thirsty killer, but what happens when others he was supposed to protect do?

suddenly you have a bunch of kids taking up guns and fighting back against criminals, violence works, let’s use it, and it’s not just how many of those delusional kids will die in an explosion or because of sticking their noses where they shouldn’t have, but also between each other, and then you end up with the entire city engulfed in a war of guns with both kids and criminals dying left and right, and you can’t tell the difference

I think Red Hood’s ideals are great, they are interesting, they seem like the perfect solution to Batman’s passivity

Until it isn’t

And it’s one thing to die yourself, but it’s another one entirely to have others die because of you

#kore talks to the wall #thinking thinking i love comics so much but god is the narrative in utrh boring #i wished they had given more nuance to everything because even though there are some very good and fun things in it #like black mask and stuff and batman's fight with red hood #it fails to nuance jason's side of the conflict (because batman's already is with jason's death) so they're not on equal ground #it also fails to tackle why jason is nuanced outside of he kills he's crazy #batman #red hood #under the red hood #these are just my silly thoughts don't mind me #long post #yeah #jason todd

[boyfridged]

A dynamic I’ve always wondered about is Jim Gordon and Jason Todd. Like considering Gordon’s place in Gotham and partnership with Batman like how does that play itself out or how should that play out given Jason’s background? I remember there being scenes with them getting along when he’s Robin and he was at his funeral but as Red Hood I don’t think we ever see anything? I think Gordon’s place in Gotham and Jason’s place in Gotham cross paths because they are different and I don’t think we have ever seen something done with that.

he really doesn't get any interactions with jim (unless i'm forgetting something, but there's nothing substantial that's for sure.)

they should happen though (i mean- not now, given gordon's current status). and they should be of a strictly hostile nature. a hill i will die on is that jason should not ever associate with cops; this is quite literally the only thing that gives him any significant moral/political standing that challenges batman's work (and you could probably guess it's my take if you've read what i said about the potential of jay as an abolitionist before.)

in his robin days, i believe he would try to be more open to the idea that jim is a good one, simply because at this time he's subscribing to bruce's moral code, and bruce most probably does make a tremendous effort to try to teach him about the "value" of legal enforcement... and there's also his relation to barbara. but i don't think he'd ever get completely comfortable around gordon anyway. jason is not cynical at all at this point, but he's also not stupid, and cops are the last kind of people he would trust, even with all his childlike naivety. so i doubt he would be eager to interact.

#unless you want to count pre-crisis jase. then he has plenty of interactions with gordon #although more with bullock... #but pre-crisis jay does not have the same background so obv. it's more believable he feels safe around cops #gordon does not get nearly enough shit btw. #and jason in canon does not subscribe to acab firmly enough... although there's been some progress when it comes to it #surprsingly. coming from rosenberg #but in utrh it's almost like his main issue with cops is that they don't do enough. which is a very winick take you know. #outbox