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nobodyfamousposts · 1 year

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Why Scarlet Lady Is Better Than Canon: Lila Rossi

I had mentioned before at length regarding my distaste, dislike, and dissatisfaction with the character of Lila Rossi in Miraculous Ladybug canon. A character so horrible, so poorly written, and so two dimensional that I did not think it was possible to make any iteration of her I wouldn’t dislike.

And yet it seems @zoe-oneesama has come through for me yet again in Scarlet Lady by taking what was quite possibly one of my biggest issues and most despised characters within canon and with only a few changes, turning her into something enjoyable. Dare I even say…likable.

More than that, even. It says something when my least favorite character in Miraculous Ladybug canon can somehow become one of my top favorite characters in a different variation of it.

It’s because Zoe shows an understanding of the characters and what makes them engaging, and other than SL Adrien, it shows the most in the form of SL Lila.

See, Canon Lila Rossi is a selfish, manipulative, egotistical, petty, and self-centered liar.

Scarlet Lady Lila Rossi, on the other hand, is a selfish, manipulative, egotistical, petty, and self-centered liar.

Now I’m sure all of you are looking at those two sentences and noting that they’re the same thing. And you are right. That’s the point! Because the difference between the two versions isn’t who Lila is but rather in how the narrative and writing treat her and what Lila ends up doing because of it. And it’s why Scarlet Lady is superior in its handling of Lila.

Lila in Scarlet Lady is not a good person. Nor does she become a good person. She admits that she lies for fun and just to see how far she can take it. She’s fully on board with continuing her lies and trying to fool her mom and the school to get away with staying out of school for a year. This is all in lines with regular Canon Lila and shows that they are still the same person, it’s just the events and situation and narrative that differentiate them. It’s in how the Scarlet Lady story handles Lila and her character.

For the sake of convenience, I'm going to be using Scarlet Lady to refer to the comic itself and Scar to refer to Chloe's hero identity specifically.

Let’s review and compare Lila in Scarlet Lady to canon:

1. Lila in Scarlet Lady is NOT a plot device.

She doesn’t need to be. It’s clear that the plot is and has been moving forward on its own without her. Even if Lila were to have been removed from Scarlet Lady altogether, it’s pretty evident from everything else that’s been happening that we would still be getting to some plots and story points without too much difference or delay.

Scarlet Lady has a natural progression. The story and characters aren’t so rooted in the status quo that sudden additional character like Lila or Felix are necessary to throw in just to move things along. And Lila isn’t simply forgotten about when she’s not needed to do so. She doesn’t vanish without an explanation only to return also without explanation just to be able to force the plot to move.

Events within a story can be dependent on the characters, but the plot itself should not be dependent on what feels like a third party to show up and force things to happen when they should already be happening. That speaks of bad writing.

Canon Lila existed for the purpose of getting the Grimoire into Marinette’s hands so she could be the one to take it to Fu and learn about the Guardian and Miraculous secrets, as well as to be a future helper to Hawk Moth. Up until that point, the plot had done nothing with Fu and had done nothing to move things forward in learning about the Miraculous or why Hawk Moth would want the specific two. And after Volpina, the episodes that feature Lila are the ones that display more plot progression or involve Hawk Moth having layers to his plans. Lila only appears when she’s to be used to further a plot, then disappears until needed again.

In Scarlet Lady, by the time Lila appears, it’s already clear to Adrien, Plagg, and Fu that Scar is a horrible person and that she had no business being a hero. It’s also clear that Adrien is handling the hero work on his own and needs help. This is part of what causes Adrien to know that Lila is a liar and call her out on his own because in addition to Lila stealing his book, he already knows Scar well enough to know Lila’s story of Scar saving her would never happen. Lila isn’t the reason they find this out, nor is she the reason that the book is discovered and gets to the Guardian because Plagg chooses for himself to take Adrien to Fu. And afterwards, Lila’s appearances are more natural. Plot progression happens with and without her. Her appearances involve her interacting with her classmates like a person. They don’t have to have a plot-relevant purpose.

Narratively, there are three reasons to put in a scene.

Plot

Expansion/information/character focus

Entertainment

In canon, all of Lila's scenes are plot-focused and plot-driving.

In Scarlet Lady, they vary. Some are plot (like Lila's anti-Scar attitude getting more focus and validity over time). But more of Lila's scenes are focus in on her character and entertainment. This builds Lila as a person and makes her enjoyable to watch.

Lila is not a plot device as the plot doesn’t NEED her to progress. But that’s not to say that Lila doesn’t matter…

2. Lila has a role that nobody else in the story could cover.

As I’ve stated before, Canon Lila is pretty much another Chloe and there was nothing she was used for that Chloe couldn’t have or wouldn’t have been able to do. As a rival/foil to Marinette, as another love interest for Adrien, and even as a helper to Hawk Moth—by the time Lila started any of these roles, Chloe was already there and fully capable of filling them.

In Scarlet Lady, due to Scar being the hero Lila is butting heads with and being outted earlier on, SL Lila ends up not filling those same “roles”. She’s not a rival to Scar or Marinette, just a hater/critic of the former and a friend to the latter. She was called out by Adrien so she is shown to have no further interest in trying to pursue him. And as of yet, there has been nothing of Lila helping Hawk Moth.

Instead, Lila’s scenes show her engaging with the other classmates. More of the results of her being revealed as a liar. Her being a queen of sass and snark. And most importantly, her going head to head with Chloe and Scarlet Lady in verbal lashings that prove her silver tongue is no duller for people knowing of it.

In fact, she’s a part of people starting to realize that Scar is in fact horrible and her popularity starts to break down.

Yes, yes, we do have both Adrien and Marinette who realize how horrible Scarlet Lady is and hate her, but other than some snarky comments at her expense, they don’t do much about it. Mostly because they can’t. Especially early on, it’s clear that they’re forced to keep Scar around because as useless as she is otherwise, she is the only one who can purify the akuma and undo the damage. And as Fu has told them, Scar is still too popular with the city that trying to take the earrings from her would result in more problems. The two of them have to focus on dealing with the akumas more than trying to deal with Scar. Plus let’s be real: even as snarky as they both can get, they’re just too nice.

Others are also similarly of no help. Alya is still completely wrapped in Scar’s facade of a hero to see how selfish and unheroic she is. Most of the other classmates also go along with this narrative. But even the ones who DO know like Alix and Nino aren’t that active. They know but they don’t do anything with that knowledge.

Lila has no such barriers. She’s not a hero. She doesn’t know how “necessary” Scar is in akuma battles. And she doesn’t have to worry about not upsetting Scar since the “hero” already hates her. And thanks to Marinette and the other classmates with their “we still care about you for you” bit, she now has no reason to put up a mask…or a filter.

This makes Lila in prime position to try to push more against Scarlet Lady’s popularity and talk at length about how horrible she actually is. Something she is MORE than happy to do.

Lila is essentially the first main civilian hater of Scarlet Lady.

And with that in mind…

3. Lila’s actions are reasonable. Perhaps not intelligent, but they are reasonable.

She commits a number of the same acts as canon in Volpina. Stealing Adrien’s book, buying a necklace to be a fake Miraculous, trying to claim herself as the hero’s best friend for attention, and trying to claim she is a hero herself to get Adrien’s attention.

SL Lila is not a master manipulator or an up and coming villain. We are not expected to view her as a real threat to anything except Chloe’s ego.

Sure, she wants to speedrun the popularity and attention and maybe a nice rich blond boytoy to be her arm candy, but it’s clear in the very first comic she appears in that Lila has NO IDEA what sort of people she’s interacting with or telling lies about, and so has no way to prepare for what happens. First in that Adrien is so DONE with everything that he calls her out himself from the get go. Second in that Scarlet Lady appears to “save” Adrien from Lila’s lies when it was no longer necessary, proclaims aloud to the multitude of bystanders that Lila is a fraud, and then dumps her in a fountain for good measure and further insults her to boot. And at the end of it all, Scar doesn’t apologize for her actions, doubles down, and only further insults Lila. And as if all of that wasn’t bad enough, still being wet AND being on top of the Eiffel Tower results in her getting sick.

As such, Lila’s hatred of the Ladybug Hero in this version of events feels more understandable and based on a legitimate grievance. Several even. Scar’s actions go well beyond canon’s version. We clearly see how hurt and humiliated Lila is. Plus we have all of Scar’s previous antics to look back on and…well, we already came into this with more reason to hate Scarlet Lady than Lila, and Lila simply jumped on the bandwagon that was already there.

It also makes more sense then that Lila never even pretends to forgive Scar. Scar never apologized. She caused emotional and physical harm to Lila. And unlike Ladybug, Scar never tried to make an offer of friendship so Lila isn’t losing out on any opportunities out of spite. Heck, Scar’s treatment of Alya shows us that there is nothing to be gained from even pretending to be a fan of Scar. So Lila’s hatred of Scar is understandable and her refusal to be friends with Scar makes perfect sense.

When she hides away at her home, there’s a valid reason behind it due to her being sick. Her “plan” to fool her mom and the school in order to avoid going back also makes sense given the fallout she knows she would have to face if she did. (At least more sense than it made in canon for her to disappear for months just because Ladybug outted her to one guy who clearly seemed to be on her side more and neither of them did anything to inform anyone else of the truth.)

And when she returns to the school and the classmates, it isn’t out of nowhere. Once she was no longer sick, she was planning to continue some ruse. We clearly see how despondent Lila was over her situation and the feeling that she’s on her own and no one would side with her over Scar. This was deep. It shows real fears and feelings on Lila’s part. And it’s telling that it was the assurance from Marinette and support from her classmates that convinced her to rejoin the class. It doesn’t look like she would have had the willingness or perhaps the courage to do so if Marinette hadn’t reassured Lila that they had her back and had taken steps to try and help her, even when she wasn’t there and as of yet had done nothing to warrant it.

Here we see a Lila who is vulnerable and real. Who is clearly impacted by events on a deeper and more personal and meaningful level—or at least better than “GRR! Superhero revealed I was lying about her to a boy I like! I shall join the terrorist attacking the city and potentially destroy the WORLD for revenge!”

In this way, Lila is portrayed more like a normal girl. Since the narrative isn’t trying to play her off like she’s supposed to be some master manipulator the way canon does, Lila for all intents and purposes IS a normal teenage girl. A normal teenage girl who was humiliated and injured by someone with more power and social status than she can fight back against. She’s less of an archetype and more of a person with her own thoughts and feelings and ultimately choices which—even if we don’t like or agree with, we can at least see and understand.

Her actions are reasonable. Not just in that we as the audience can empathize with them but that they make sense. For Lila’s character, for her personality, and for someone in her position.

4. No plot armor.

SL Lila’s plans don’t just seamlessly work out. If anything, they go very wrong very quickly. Even before Scar calls her out, Adrien already made it clear that he knows she’s a liar. This effectively ruins her plan to try and get his interest and not just in the “Adrien being nice but not in to her” way. Furthermore, as she’s revealed as a liar in front of the entire class, we clearly see some of her classmates (Alya) continue to take issue with her later on. And even the ones who don’t have such issues are at least fully aware of Lila’s personality and don’t allow her to fool or manipulate them.

Sure, she still tries to manipulate her mom and the school to avoid having to go back, but that doesn’t last that long. And in Lila’s defense at that period of time, she was legitimately sick as a result of her dip in the fountain.

So it’s pretty clear that Lila lacks the plot armor that she had in canon. But it’s not just that Lila experiences losses, it’s also in the ways she succeeds. And unlike Canon Lila, SL Lila is not reliant on the plot to accomplish anything or make things work in her favor.

Some classmates still consider her friends. She’s still welcomed back—even with a bit more trepidation than before. She gets some epic zingers on Chloe and Scar. She got to have another interview with Alya just to be able to go on at length about how horrible Scar is. She manages to get on live TV just to heckle Scar. And over time, more and more people are seeing the problems with Scar.

Lila still gets some victories. Certainly not as many and not as big as what she gets in canon, but at least they don’t feel so forced. And they’re entertaining to see.

Which delves a bit more into an additional point I wanted to make…

5. There are consequences and responses to Lila and her lies.

With Canon Lila, everyone is in this weird sort of limbo where they automatically believe Lila JUST ENOUGH to not question her but at the same time NOT ENOUGH to actually follow through with some of her lies. In Chameleon, Lila claims to have and then magically be cured of Tinnitus and Bustier believes her just enough to rearrange the seats for her at her will but not enough to require some doctor’s note or confirmation of either the presence or recovery from the medical issue—even in the event the former could be overlooked, the latter could NOT and any school or teacher worth their salt would require SOME proof to discontinue an accommodation for someone with a disability because that would be a liability. In Ladybug, Lila claimed Marinette pushed her down stairs and the adults believed her just enough to admonish Marinette but not enough to get Lila actual medical attention, which is a liability and gross negligence. In Ono-chan, Nino believes Lila’s lies about needing Adrien to help tutor her just enough to give her an opening to go to his place but not enough to follow through, check up on her afterwards, or reasonably consider that maybe the supermodel with the super strict father might not be the best person to tutor her and he should ask for help from Max or Sabrina instead?

Each and every time, Lila is believed in the exact way she wants to the exact extent that would most benefit her with minimal effort on her part when it shouldn’t work that way. Even if we disregard how stupidly obvious many of her lies are, there is something wrong when they believe her enough to trust what she says over anyone else telling them otherwise but not enough to follow through on what that belief should then involve. They believe her when she says someone pushed her down the stairs but not enough to get her medical attention? Make sure she has no broken bones or internal bleeding? This has the issue of ruining the suspension of disbelief and making it look like the problem isn’t Lila being amazingly smart and evil so much as it is everyone around Lila being infuriatingly stupid and negligent.

Scarlet Lady nixes that problem in one episode by having Lila be revealed as a liar immediately, but furthermore follows up on it and the fallout of those lies. Nothing big or major or life-ruining—it’s middle school, after all. But the impact is still there.

Even episodes later, we see effects of Lila’s earlier lies. Chloe of course keeps referencing them in their encounters and yeah, it is reason for no one to really take Lila’s word against Scar’s—at least at first. Alya and Adrien both give her some pretty evil looking stares, showing that even five episodes later they both still very much remember what she did and do not approve of her getting free jewelry. Alya in particular stands out. She is shown to bear such a grudge against Lila for lying on her blog that she holds no sympathy for her being sick. And in the second intermission, she looks physically pained when she has to ask Lila for an interview on why she hates Scar. Something she had apparently sworn she would never do again after being fooled the first time. And something Lila looks completely overjoyed to do. There are people who are angry with Lila. They have every reason and every right to be. But it doesn’t have to mean the end of the world for her. It just means that there needs to be something.

The classmates don’t have to be made out to be stupid to make Lila work. They are canonically very kind and forgiving people. But canon makes them come off that way more because the lack of continuity seems to erase the lessons of previous episodes or somehow make them forget that certain people are horrible.

Zoe fixes this and a lot of problems in canon by having not just the classmates but EVERYONE in Paris remember and respond to things that have happened previously, even if just in little ways. Given how little room Zoe has to work with, this is HUGE. Simply adding comments here and there puts the scenes from canon in a new light and makes the classmates feel more fleshed out and like…dare I say it: PEOPLE.

The difference from Canon has a lot to do with how everyone else reacts to Lila, which makes these other characters and Lila appear more real and like fleshed out people rather than caricatures who only exist and move as the plot requires. They don’t have to bash Lila or try to light her on fire for it to be clear that Lila isn’t a good person and that there are consequences to her actions.

This is all leading up to the real possibility of…

6. Character arc?

It says something that contrary to most expectations, Lila is not what one would consider to be redeemed in Scarlet Lady. Lila is not a good person here just because she rejoins the class and becomes their friend and Zoe at no point tries to pretend that she is.

Marinette and other classmates made the choice to reach out and try to befriend Lila, but unlike most other arcs in other stories, this doesn’t result in Lila being redeemed. And she in no way got Lila to admit she was wrong and try to be a good person.

Lila is not necessarily forgiven or absolved of what she did. Nor is anything Lila did magically erased. All Marinette did and all she had to do was encourage Lila to not run away now that the truth was out. She helped convince her to return to the class with everyone fully knowing what she’s done and the type of person that she is and move forward with that. She informs Lila that despite her lies, there are people in the class who genuinely care about her and are worried about her.

Hell, it’s not even all up to Marinette. We see Alix sending messages to Lila encouraging her to join the class for Marinette’s birthday party. Sabrina fully admitted to inviting Lila to that party. Same with Rose, who has also been expressed to be worried about Lila. There are members of the class who are shown to care about her and who were noted to have made an effort to help Lila even after what had happened. Because they consider her a friend despite what she did, and that’s what friends do. All they asked was that Lila stop with the lies, stop with running away, and give people a chance.

And the result is the more mellow but passive aggressive Lila Rossi we see in Scarlet Lady. Not a Lila who is a good person or who is redeemed. This is a Lila who is at least honest with everyone about the sort of person that she is. She’s not pretending like she was in canon. She’s not being fake. She’s not putting on a mask of niceness anymore. This is a Lila who is fully acknowledged by everyone to have been a liar, to still be very selfish, and in some ways...a bad influence.

With a few episodes left, perhaps there is more we’ll see of Lila’s development and who she’ll become. Maybe we’ll get to see her take the steps to become better. To be a good friend, a good person, and maybe even a better hero than Scar. I don’t know for sure just yet what Zoe has planned for a character like Lila, but I do know what I see here:

A good start.

#ml analysis #scarlet lady #scarlet lady is better than canon #lila rossi #lila salt #for zoe #merry christmas

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angelshizuka · 9 months

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I think my main problem with Gabriel in the show is that at it’s core he keeps proving over and over again he loves Emilie more than he loves Adrien.

He attempted to akumatize Adrien (the only reason he couldn’t is because Adrien suddenly felt better) and the show gave us two examples that if Gabriel ever found out Cat Noir is actually his son, he wouldn’t hesitate for even a single second to use Adrien as a tool to get his wife back.

Thanks to the s5 finale not having a Cat Noir and Hawk Moth showdown at all (which is like the literal lowest barest of minimums you’d expect from an arc like this, yet they failed at even that) those “what if“ scenarios are officially the only ones we have, and both of them prove Gabriel’s an awful father.

Even with his “sacrifice“ he didn’t give a shit how it could possibly affect Adrien. At the end of the day Gabriel left his son without a father (and possibly without a mother, it’s still vague wheter the woman is Emilie or Amelie, because apperently even Asstruck can’t make up his mind) and his death wish was to make his son live in a lie of what a “good father“ he was (footage not found).

Side note: I mean death wish as a general thing where people make a final wish on their death beds, we still have no idea what his exact wish for Gimmi was.

That’s probably what moved me so much with movie Gabriel. There it’s a lot more obvious his love for Emilie and Adrien are equal, because the literal second he realized he’d been beating the living hell out of his own son, he stops. He also wants his wife back as much as show Gabriel, but the key difference is in the movie he refuses to do it at the cost of his son.

Obviously the cliffhanger ending scene leaves a lot of unanswered questions, but at least judging on this movie alone, he’s miles better than what they did with his character in the show.

And especially with show Adrien canonically being a sentimonster now and Emilie using the peacock miraculous to create him is what caused her “death“ in the first place, kinda makes me wonder if Gabirel unconsciously hates Adrien because of this, wheter he realizes it or not.

#that last part has no canon ground (yet) just some thoughts I had #but I stand by literally everything else I said #miraculous #miraculous ladybug #miraculous awakening #miraculous the movie #miraculous movie #ml movie #ml movie spoilers #ml spoilers #ml salt #chat noir #cat noir #adrien agreste #hawk moth #gabriel agreste #emilie agreste #anti thomas astruc #personal

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miraculouslbcnreactions · 2 months

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I actually thought that Adrien and Gabriel's relationship seemed like it might have been possible to salvage in the early seasons. What do you think?

@tallwriter Starting a new post since this one was getting super long as this is a different topic.

The problem with Gabriel Agreste's character is that they very clearly wanted to write a sympathetic villain - you can tell that from how the show handles his death - but sympathetic villains don't work if you make them cartoonishly evil. You have to handle the situation with nuance and delicacy, especially when one of the main heroes is the villain's son.

Gorizilla is not a perfect episode by any means, but it does showcase how Gabriel should have been written if they wanted him to come across as complex and sympathetic. In that episode, Gabe thinks that Adrien is Chat Noir and, because there's no way to magically force Adrien to reveal himself or confess his secrets, Gabriel has to come up with a situation where Adrien would be forced to transform of his own free will (since that can't be overwritten with a ring or something crazy like that). Which is how we get Adrien hurtling to his death while his father looks on:

Adrien: Always! (jumps out of Gorizilla's hand, and over the side of the building) Yeah-ha! Hawk Moth:(from his lair) No! ... Hawk Moth:(from his lair) If indeed you are Cat Noir, then transform, son. Please. (Adrien continues to fall downward, resolutely remaining as he is) Come on, son! (Ladybug looks down at Adrien, then raises her head, eyes closed.) Ladybug: Cat Noir, help!! Hawk Moth:(from his lair, to Gorizilla) Drop Ladybug!

This is good writing. Yes, Gabe's plan was kind of dumb (you live with Adrien, dude, just bug his room), but if we accept that this was the only way to go about a forced reveal - and that does seem to be the writer's logic - then we see a situation where Gabriel put his son above winning. A situation where he's still very much the villain, but he's not a dastardly, cold-hearted one. He does love his son.

There are actually several of these moments in the first three seasons. Some involve Adrien and many more involve Nathalie. It's why season five's claim that Gabe put beating Ladybug above everything else rings hollow. He never actually did that outside of Evolution (S5E1). He's almost always been loved-ones first when it really counts, a thing that Ladybug uses against him in the final when she tries to crush Emilie. The whole "Ladybug obsession" thing truly feels like something they just made up for that one episode to justify Nathalie "turning sides" aka doing nothing useful beyond maintaining the status quo (hey, they needed someone to keep the senti plot from having consequences and it wasn't like she was doing anything useful anyway!)

The problem is that this "loved ones first" mentality is only used for big dramatic moments, often as a way to keep Gabriel from winning. It's not Gabriel's main characterization even though it needed to be if you want season five's ending to feel even remotely earned. Going into that ending, we should have all thought that Gabe was a messed up dude who truly did love his son. And, if Gorizilla, Style Queen, and Ladybug had all been examples of his standard characterization, then we would have thought that.

But that's not who the writers told us Gabe was.

Instead, his standard characterization paints him as petty, controlling, and manipulative. Which is wild because there was no reason to do that! Gabe could - and should - have been played as stern and removed, but generally loving when he's outside of the mask. In other words, Gabriel Agreste could be well liked while Hawk Moth was hated.

The crazy thing is that this is such a simple change to make. You either removed the episodes where Gabe's awful parenting is the source of the conflict (ex: Bubbler) or you just make a few minor changes to show that he's conflicted about his actions.

For example, take Chat Blanc, the episode that ruined so many elements of this show! In that episode, Gabe is a total bastard. He happily sacrifices his son's happiness to make an akuma in the form of Marinette and then, when Adrien's secret is revealed, does Gabe have any sort of conflict about traumatizing his son? The kind of conflict we'd expect after episodes like Gorizilla? Nope! He straight up delights in showing Adrien Emilie's... corpse? Comatose form? Whatever! Gabe then akumatizes Adrien with a smile on his face.

That gets the writers a solid F for consistent characterization. It's why I highlighted "almost" in red when I mentioned Gabe's motivation. Because in Ephemeral and Chat Blanc, the writing ignores the sympathetic stuff that characterizes the dramatic moments and goes straight for the worst-father-of-the-year, love-to-hate-him, please-let-him-die-now characterization that we get in most episodes.

If you were writing Chat Blanc's Gabriel to fit his intended complex, sympathetic mold, then you would probably drop the breakup plot or you'd have spent all season setting Marinette up as the perfect akuma target, changing the breakup into something that Gabriel felt that he HAD to do instead of opportunistic evilness. You'd also have Gabe drop a line like, "I'm sorry, Adrien. You'll thank me later" before the Chat Blanc akumatization. Or at least don't have him grinning! Do something, ANYTHING to show that Gabe sees using his son like this as a necessary evil and not a fun time! You know, like how he was begging Adrien to transform during Gorizilla? Almost like Gabe had stopped caring about winning and started just wanting his son to live.

Would these changes make Gabe less of a fun cartoon villain? Yes, but that's the point. Cartoon villains are cartoony. They're over the top. They have no nuance. Sympathetic villains don't work with those characteristics.

The normal way to get around this in a cartoon setting is to have secondary antagonists who can be played as cartoonishly evil. And, confusingly, Miraculous has those characters. Chloe, Sabrina, and Lila have been here since season one (Kim could also have stayed a bully and been added to that list, but he's not a teenage girl, so I get why they didn't do that /s.) Felix has been around since seasons three. Nathalie has been an active villain since season two. Any or all of these characters could be the cartoonish, nuance-less villain while Gabriel stays sympathetic.

Instead, they play Gabe however they want to play him in any given episode, making it so that he's impossible to understand from an audience perspective. I personally like the sympathetic take and think that those are the show's best episodes because I like complex villains. It's even how I write Gabe in my stuff because I go for less cartoony takes on canon.

I don't think a redemption was needed, but a sympathetic villain doesn't require one. All that term means is that you can understand the villain and be sympathetic to their plight. Redemption is optional. In fact, the goal is often not redemption, but an understand that, "there but for the grace of the gods go I." I mean, we've all lost loved ones. Wouldn't the power to bring a loved one back tempt you, too?

If they wanted to go for evil, cartoony Gabe, then they needed to drop all of the complexity and go for a Disney villain type character who gets a Disney villain death a la Scar or Mother Gothel. Don't give Gabe the wish. Let him fall to his own hubris by falling into the water of his secret layer and lading as a puddle of ash while a sad Ladybug looks on, having just failed to save him.

If you want to see an excellent look at how cartoon Gabe could have worked, then I highly recommend @zoe-oneesama's Scarlet Lady comic, which is just nearing its end after a multi-year run. I think it's fair to say that Zoe and I largely agree on canon's flaws, she just fixes them by leaning into the cartoon side of things, creating a hilarious story with lots of heart. Canon could have absolutely gone that way too and worked out wonderfully! The issue is not a lack of nuance, it's that they tried to add nuance without ever fully committing to it, making a story that is the worst of both worlds. While a more serious nuanced reboot would be my ideal dream, a reboot that scraps all of Gabe's nuance and just makes him go full evil would be just as satisfying and Zoe proves that.

#ml season 5 salt #ml salt #ml writing criticism #ml writing critical #Gabriel Agreste deserves better #Gabriel Agreste deserves worse #Gabriel Agreste deserves anything but what canon did with him #Let me love to hate him #Or watch sadly as he ruins his relationship with his son #Just don't give me the mess that is canon

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folkloristico · 10 months

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As an Adrien stan who used to defend his writing back during season 3, I take everything back. I feel so sorry about the way he’s been treated by the writers—always put aside, always unaware of what’s happening even when it specifically concerns him.

“It’s better that he doesn’t know that his father was a villain.”

No, it isn’t. Marinette doesn’t get to decide that, Adrien does. He deserves to know that his father was an abuser. Gabriel doesn’t deserve to be remembered as a hero. I wasn’t expecting, nor did I want it, that Gabriel was going to be exposed to everyone because that would’ve reflected badly on Adrien, so I would understand if Marinette wanted to protect him from that. What it��s not fair is keeping him in the dark.

“But Adrienette is finally canon, aren’t you happy?”

As a hardcore Lovesquare fan since season 1, I absolutely am not. I wanted their relationship to be about honesty and trust. Why would I, as an Adrien stan, want him next to a person who’s lying to him? Who will likely be lying to him for the rest of their lives? Mind you, I’m not blaming Marinette (I love her even more than I love Adrien); I’m blaming the writing. For having us believe that any sort of criticism of the show comes from a place of misunderstanding of the canon material, because God forbid someone has an opinion that doesn’t align with the writers’ idea.

Anyways, Marinette and Adrien deserved so much better. Everyone did.

#anyway happy ladynoir july y’all whatever you got planned will be better than canon #ml salt #anti thomas astruc #miraculous ladybug salt #don’t know what others tags to add #adrien agreste #adrien marinette GET BEHIND ME!!!#i love them both so much they did them so dirty

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jennrypan · 1 year

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"Marinette is forgiving"

Yes, but not towards the two 14 year old assholes. But specifically forgiving to the.

Asshole that gave Hawkmoth all the miraculous, and then. Hawkmoth himself because?? Poor little man lost his wifey and he was oh sooo sad about it he had to terrorize all of Paris.

No yeah, definitely deserving of forgiveness.

I WONT SHUT UP ABOUT THIS PLOT POINT UNTIL ITS CHANGED IDC

You will NEVER convince me that Gabriel fucking Agreste or even fucking Felix are more deserving of forgiveness than Chloe and Lila.

I dont wanna hear SHIT.

#j.p speaks #mlb salt #i like marinette (to an extent) BUT YALL CANT DENY THIS IS STUPID AS FUCK.#and if yall can bash and salt on Chloe and Lila for writer decisions.#then so can I. but im not salting on Marinette just pointing out actually canon shit that makes no sense #its all about 'these girls dont deserve a second chance!!'#'but gabriel does!!'#SHUT UP WHO THOUGHT THAT WAS SMART? FUCK YOU.#miraculous ladybug #ml leaks #ml writing salt

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purrincess-chat · 1 year

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Just to clarify that we are all watching the same show (bc I've seen so many takes that make me question my sanity), let's do a love square run down. Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

LadyNoir: Chat put aside his feelings for Ladybug after spending the entirety of s4 being sidelined and chastised for having feelings for her. Ladybug made a mistake with Adrien that has made her too traumatized to pursue him, so she turned to Chat Noir who has now stated that he only loves her as a friend. (Which is probably a lie, he more than likely still loves her but is just trying to respect boundaries she set in s4)

MariChat: Marinette loves Chat bc of her interactions/friendship with him as Ladybug (Chat does not know this). Chat Noir loves Marinette bc of his interactions/friendship with her as Adrien (Marinette does not know this). They both pretty much decided that they couldn't be together in this way, even if it hurts, as a result of information they don't have. (Identities)

Adrinette: Again, Marinette harbors a lot of trauma surrounding Adrien (Adrien does not know this) so she's running away from feelings she clearly still has. Adrien, after giving Ladybug space and growing closer to Marinette, is in love with Marinette and actively pursuing her. This will likely still be a problem bc of the way Marinette is currently feeling, but he's gonna try. Results are pending.

Ladrien: No where to be seen in s5 atm, but we can glean from the other sides that Ladybug would likely be apprehensive around him, and Adrien would probably be respectful/polite. They both know she screwed up and is likely feeling some kind of way about that.

Did I get that right? Is there another version of canon floating around out there that other people are watching? Am I missing an episode? Please let me know for my sanity bc if I have to read another 'x side is canon, all the others are dead' post when none of the sides are actually canon right now, I just might lose it, yall.

#ml spoilers #the love square isnt dead nor is it canon #yall understand that right?#it's important to me that you guys understand that #ml fandom salt #ladrien #adrinette #adrienette #ladynoir #marichat #anyway happy monday morning #im tired both literally and figuratively

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thecoolcatstuff · 7 months

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I see some people on tumblr claiming evil chat/adrien should look and act just the same as the original because " Adrien being a ball of sunshine should be a constant in all universes uwu"

Its really odd how to some people Adrien isnt allowed to have an autonomy or personality outside "perfect love interest" even in parallel universes

#the weird thing is that Im not sure canon wouldnt do it #it saves them to make a new model at least #miraculous ladybug #miraculous #claw noir #adrien agreste #ml fandom salt #also now that I though about it that says a lot about people hating on movie Adrien

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chatonnoir · 2 years

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My dudes .... much like the past 4 seasons .... the show is still about Adrienette and Ladynoir .... while Ladrien and Marichat are limited to fun singular episodes each season .... Adrien realizing his feelings for Marinette and Ladybug realizing her feelings for Chat Noir means it’s still about Adrienette and Ladynoir. Just like how the past four seasons were not about Ladrien, y’all are not getting a Marichat-centric season .... Marinette fell in love with Chat Noir through her relationship with him as Ladybug .... the episodes going forward are still going to be focused on the relationships between Adrienette and Ladynoir, as they always have been. The lovesquare is not reversing but completing.

#ml spoilers #ml fandom salt #people are talking like the developments of the newest ep mean ''''''''marichat will be canon''''''''' and that thats going to be the focus #no dude there is still only one marichat ep per season the show has always revolved around adrienette + ladynoir whats not clicking #also if you've ever shit on ladrien for being 'too easy' or ''''boring'''' for being requited & are now celebrating ''''canon marichat'''''#you are legally obligated to pay me and every other cultured ladrien appreciator $90 before you can say a word #kofi link in bio <3

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stellarlex · 1 year

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The sheer hypocrisy of Marinette salters who are Feligami shippers is absolutely baffling to me.

Every false thing they say about Marinette being a stalker and a bully and all that crap, is literally what is happening with Felix and how he treats Kagami.

Ima need y’all to keep that same energy because at this point the hate for Marinette is childish and is smelling a bit racist to me.

#felix salt #feligami salt #marinette sugar #marinette deserves better #miraculous ladybug #ml salt #ml fandom salt #the hypocrisy is absolutely insane #i said what i said #keep that same energy #because then why is Marinette hated so much when Felix is literally doing the same shit y’all accused her of #canonically even!#and y’all like that shit?!#And even though there’s so much evidence that Marinette isn’t a stalker y’all still on her back #But you adore the real stalker?!

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jasontoddssuper · 11 months

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If i'm being completely honest,i'm really sad that i can't enjoy Maribat and Dp x Dc.I was a Miraculous Ladybug kid and a Danny Phantom one too and DC is one of my biggest special interests and i absolutely agree that Marinette deserves a million times better than what she's given in canon,especially because i relate to her so much(like how i'm biracial),and i have a general spinterest in superheroes so i deeply wish i could join in on the fun.I even love a few of the ships,i think Tim and Marinette is a perfect fit!

But even if it didn't frustrate me greatly that these fans don't even read comics,i can't look past how much they normalize racism and harmful relathionships.Marinette and Danny got picked up as Batkids because of having blue eyes to delibaretly erase Duke and Cass,Alya gets bashed all the time and Marinette gets excotified(?)and infantalized,there's shipping adults with minors left and right and ofc even more in///cest between adoptive family members than before.Maribat and Dc x Dp could've been great but as always awful people have to ruin good things

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dizzying-faust · 16 days

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Are people still trying to call Marinette racist because of that one noncanon fancomic made by a creep all because someone suggested shipping her with Miles Morales?

#c's thoughts #plus two of her best friends are canonically black #but no let's believe misinformation #god this is another reason I'm not touching josunette again #if ml salters can be annoying with crossover ships #i hate to imagine how anti ml people would react #ml fandom salt #leave marinette alone challenge #god i hate twitter sometimes #ml anti salt

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miraculouslbcnreactions · 5 months

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About you last post, I think a reason why the show took such a weird and concerning direction of Adrien having this therapy role, I don‘t really believe that the writers take Marinette‘s PTSD serious (at least outside of derision). The whole show her „weirdness“ was played off as comedy (TA said so himself in a tweet a while back) and the phone call scene you were describing also had vibes of making Mari look quirky like „haha look she still can‘t be normal about her bf“.

The worst part is that I feel like the writers could actually write good mental health representation but only when the plot demands it. Adrien being visibly depressed in s4? Makes for good drama. Adrien forgetting all his problems after he gets with Mari? Well duh love solves everything. Marinette having a panic attack? Makes the scene where she looses the miraculous more intense. Almost every other instant of her panicking? Hehe funny.

The whole show her "weirdness“ was played off as comedy (TA said so himself in a tweet a while back)

Oh, her weirdness was absolutely supposed to be read as comedic pre-Derision. I never consider those jokes funny, but they were very clearly jokes. In fact, it always weirded me out when people took her actions seriously because those people never applied that logic to the other absurdist humor used in the show.

My go-to example is Party Crasher. If you're up in arms about Marinette being a "stalker", but aren't equally or even more concerned by a bunch of adult men just randomly showing up to hang out with a group of 14-year-olds, then maybe you're holding the teenage girl to an unreasonable standard and ignoring the fact that she's written by a bunch of adult men who clearly think that teenage girls act like fangirls around their real-life crushes.

Marinette is not a real person. She's a character in an absurdist romantic comedy aimed at kids. Her actions have to be judged in that light if you want to make any sort of good-faith analysis.

The problem is Derision and the choice to make all of Marinette's Adrien-based-behavior a PTSD response. Once you go that route, the absurdist humor excuse is dead in the water.

Absurdist humor is all about making things so ridiculous that you can't take them seriously. For example, Marinette having Adrien's schedule for the next week isn't absurd because that schedule exists. She could absolutely get her hands on it! Her having his schedule for the next 3 years? That's absurd. You can't take it seriously because it's impossible for her to have a schedule that goes that far into the future. It would have, at most, a handful of events because you just don't schedule most things that far in advance.

But if you have Marinette do a big, dramatic confession where she shows Adrien the schedule and apologizes for it? Then none of that matters. the absurdist nature of it goes away because you have treated it seriously and absurdist humor is all about not treating the absurd too seriously. Derision was the equivalent of that big dramatic confession. You can no longer use absurdist humor to justify anything Marinette does and, notably, they don't. She's massively toned down post Derision and things are being taken more seriously with her and Adrien actively working on her behavior, which is a problem because this is also true:

I don‘t really believe that the writers take Marinette‘s PTSD serious

They've given her a serious issue, they're taking it seriously enough to have Adrien and Marinette address it, but they're not being serious about how you'd treat PTSD and that is the worst possible way to approach this issue. I'd be happier if they just flat out ignored it or used magic love to heal it with a kiss and never addressed it again.

When writing comedy aimed at kids, there's a thing that I like to call The Seat Belt Principle. If you've ever seen a show where a kid character was about to launch themself off in a rocket, only to fasten their seat belt first, then you've seen this principle in action. It's the idea that, in a kids show, you can have wild things happen so long as it's something that a kid can't emulate. If a kid can emulate it, then you have to take it more seriously. This is why kid characters always fasten their seat belts even if it's pointless because the child audience needs to see seat belts as cool and a thing that you always use.

The Seat Belt Principle applies to more than physically dangerous situations. If you are portraying any serious, real-life issue in a kids show, then you need to handle it differently than something that a kid will never face. To put it another way, Ladybug can have ignorant parents, Marinette cannot. Sabine and Tom not knowing that their daughter is a superhero? Not a problem, superheroes aren't real. Sabine and Tom not knowing that their daughter is experiencing horrific bullying or even straight up ignoring it? Big problem, bullies are very real.

This is where we get to the mental health stuff. A lot of media treats mental health issues as something that can be solved via romance and nothing could be further from the truth. Romantic partners can make the fight easier, but they shouldn't be your whole army if you can help it. The show doesn't seem to get this.

As you pointed out, the show keeps giving the characters metal health issues for drama and then hand waving those issues away via romantic relationships and that's a big yikes for me. You don't have to introduce mental health issues into your romantic comedy, but once you do, you have a responsibility to portray them accurately. They clearly don't want to do that and that's why season five's love square romance is a hard pass for me. There's a world of difference between bad jokes and bad mental health rep. I can overlook one, the other is a personal pet peeve and I've seen the negative consequences in action first hand. I think we all have! Who isn't familiar with the concept of a person being confused that "X is still depressed? But they got that new job/have a new SO/got engaged/etc."

#ask response #ml writing critical #ml season 5 salt #ml writing salt #ml derision #there are a lot of criticisms that will make me roll my eyes #like don't use the words “child soldiers” as a critique of canon #But bad mental health rep is a hard pass

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