#and anakin was RAISED with jedi philosophy

[bbygirl-obi]

shmi skywalker adhered to the jedi code more than anakin ever did

okay that's a very clickbaity title but i was rewatching the phantom menace and i found it so interesting that shmi actually demonstrated non-attachment and adhered to the jedi code with regards to anakin two different times during her brief screentime! i think it's important to emphasize this because shmi was anakin's only parent and primary influence during the early stages of his life. anakin's tendency towards attachment is not a result of shmi's parenting- it's despite it. so let's go through it!

the first instance of shmi's non-attachment occurs when she is presented with the notion of anakin racing on boonta eve in order to help qui-gon and padme. she explicitly says she thinks the racing is "awful" and tells anakin, "i don't want you to race." but she sets her own feelings aside- she lets go of her fear about anakin and prioritizes the greater good. the greater good, in this case, is padme and qui-gon's mission, and its implications for naboo.

shmi recognizes that her fear is not more important than an entire planet: "i may not like it, but he can help you... he was meant to help you," she says. there are also implications that she is listening to the will of the force here, and that she understands this is what anakin was meant to do.

the second instance of her non-attachment occurs when anakin is freed and she is not. she is the one who requests that qui-gon take anakin with him to coruscant to become a jedi. though she is clearly sad to part ways with him, lamenting to qui-gon that "he was in my life for such a short time," she still encourages anakin to go.

here, shmi recognizes that her desire to keep anakin near her is not more important than what is best for anakin. i've written a post here about the fact that shmi struggles to understand anakin's unique status with regards to the force, and that she turns to qui-gon and the jedi for help. shmi knows the jedi can help anakin grow this special part of him that she "can't explain" herself. she also knows that doing this will make anakin happy: she tells anakin that going with qui-gon is a chance to "make your dreams come true."

and she even drops a little nugget of wisdom, straight out of the jedi code, onto anakin. wisdom that anakin will later reject from the mouths of people like obi-wan and yoda, even though it is the exact same thing shmi believes, the exact same thing shmi is shown to have taught him. "you can't stop change, any more than you can stop the suns from setting," she tells anakin. "it is time for you to let go... to let go of me."

it's not a coincidence that shmi's screen time in the phantom menace is exclusively spent adhering to the jedi tenets of love without attachment. shmi is human, and she feels love just as anyone else. she feels scared when anakin is in danger, and she feels sad at the idea of not having him near. but she does not allow this to take precedent over the greater good, whether that is for the planet of naboo or for anakin himself.

that is non-attachment. it is letting go of someone- not because you don't love them, but because you do. and shmi skywalker is the very embodiment of it. when anakin rejects obi-wan's advice about letting go, when he refuses yoda's advice that death is inevitable, he is not just rejecting the jedi's philosophies. he is rejecting shmi's values as well. the further he sinks into attachment, the further he is forsaking his own mother's memory. that's the tragedy.

#anyways in this house we live laugh love shmi skywalker #the idea that anakin falls because shmi taught him to be attached is such a disservice and insult to shmi's entire character #she literally AGREES with jedi philosophy #and anakin was RAISED with jedi philosophy #we never once see evidence of her passing this onto him we only ever see evidence directly to the contrary #star wars #sw #anakin #anakin skywalker #shmi skywalker #shmi #non attachment #jedi culture #jedi philosophy #jedi #meta #star wars meta #the phantom menace #tpm #movies

[david-talks-sw]

More George Lucas debunking misconceptions about the Prequel Jedi:

"Anakin killed the Jedi in retaliation. They failed him, betrayed him and didn't allow him to have a relationship, so he killed them all."

"[In Revenge of the Sith] The controversy is going to be that people expect some horrible, horrific thing to happen to [Anakin] that caused him to [become Darth Vader]. It's much subtler. It's something that everybody faces— when you're looking at yourself, you can see your good and your bad, and say, "Is this a selfish choice or is this a compassionate choice? And once I get something, what would I do to keep from losing it? Would I make a pact with the devil to keep it?" - Entertainment Weekly #785, 2004

"… some of the people had a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad. [...] They wanted a real betrayal, such as, "You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try and kill you." They didn't seem to understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge." - The Making of Revenge of The Sith, page 188

"The rest of the Jedi have dogmatically forgotten how to love out of fear of having attachments, Qui-Gon is the only one who knows that you can love people selflessly, without getting possessive."

"The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padmé and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation." - Attack of the Clones, Director’s Commentary, 2002

"Obviously, it’s a progression. But in [Attack of the Clones], you begin to see that he has a fear of losing things, fear of losing his mother. And as a result, he wants to begin to control things, he wants to become more powerful. And these are not Jedi traits. And part of this is because he started to be trained so late in life, that he had already formed these attachments. And for a Jedi, attachment is forbidden. You can love people, but you have to love them unconditionally, in terms that you can’t hold on to them." - CNN, “Countdown to the Clones”, 2002

"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth. They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people - in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death." - The Making of Revenge of The Sith, page 213

"Ultimately for a Jedi Knight, it’s very easy to give up. One of the things they give up is marriage. They can still love people. But they can’t possess them. They can’t own them. They can’t demand that they do things. They have to be able to accept the fact, one, their mortality, that they are going to die. And not worry about it. That the loved ones they have, everything they love is going to die and they can’t do anything about it." - Celebration V, Main Event, 2010

"The Jedi in The High Republic are the Jedi in their prime/heyday. By the time of the Prequels, they've become political and dispassionate/prohibitive."

"[In Phantom Menace] you see the heyday of the Jedi, when they are the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, sort of like the old marshals out West. And there's thousands of them." - Vanity Fair, 1999

"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men, and young boys that had learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing." - The Phantom Menace, “Fights”, 2001

"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships." - BBC News, 2002

"[When Obi-Wan talks to Anakin about politicians, we learn about] the Jedi’s disenchantment with the political process, due to the corruption and the ineffectiveness of the Senate." - Attack of the Clones, Director’s Commentary, 2002

"The Jedi aren't really allowed to be involved in the political process. They're [present in the Senate when Palpatine is given emergency powers], but they can't suddenly step up and say, "No, no. You can't do that." They have to let the political process go." - Attack of the Clones, Commentary Track #2, 2002

#this was in my drafts for a while #and I noticed I hadn't shared 3-4 of these quotes yet like -the EW one -the 'disenchantment' one or -the CNN one #so I figured I'd do two birds one stone; update it quickly with the new quotes & share it #george lucas #jedi order #long post #collection of quotes #star wars #in defense of the jedi #pro jedi

[phoenixyfriend]

Was watching a ContraPoints video (popular trans lady YouTuber) on some gender philosophy and got to thinking about trans girl Ani nuances.

OKAY SO: Contrapoints makes a comment in the video (transcript here) that she views herself as a boy who became a woman, not a girl who didn't realize it yet, which is a relatively uncommon approach among trans people, and that's in the middle of a longer discussion on the flaws in radfem theology (which I watched right after this PhilosophyTube video, and accidentally conflated the two since the former talked a lot about systems/structures of gender).

Anyway, I'm rotating that in my mind with regards to Anakin, who grew up in a setting that could easily be interpreted as having a much foggier distinction between Man and Woman than between Slave and Maste,r or human and twilek, etc.

It's entirely feasible that, on Tatooine in particular, the social elements of gender came down to very practical concerns (reproduction) and very superficial signs (e.g. hairstyle could maybe broadcast intended gender, and who wears skirts) outside of the specific situation of highly gendered and sexual forms of slavery (Jabba's dancing girls), which was relatively rare compared to more standard forms, like shop work or janitorial or what have you.

So you have an Anakin who grew up in a setting where "am I a girl?" isn't necessarily a question that would have the same answer as in another setting with more defined gender distinctions, in terms of both expression and role, and of the matter of identity at that confluence.

Then he--still he, at that time--meets Padmé and the handmaidens (very feminine, very girl, but not in a way that's at all like the way women on Tatooine willingly engage with), and encounters Coruscant culture (lots of gender dynamics due to the culture mash, but a low-key Western Misogyny vibe in the Senate and other non-Jedi settings Anakin's liable to encounter), as well as the Jedi classes on gender and sexuality and respecting/navigating those parts of culture on other planets.

As a result, Anakin starts developing a new, more nuanced and expansive understanding of gender, where it's more than just a few small differences, and the people around are mostly Jedi, who are also pretty dang open to nontraditional gender approaches etc And Anakin sort of… grows into wanting to be woman? In a way that isn't the usual "I always knew I was a girl" and more of an "I've learned what people consider a girl, and I'd like to be one."

And like. Ani COULD go back to thinking of gender in Tatooine terms, but why bother? Being a girl makes her happy. She wasn't unhappy as a boy in that gender framework, but she's happy as a girl now.

But because she didn't mind being raised a boy, she might say things a "when I was a boy" or "back when I was still living as a boy"

Me every time I hear a new, interesting take on gender: How can I apply this to a fictional character?

Also tbf this settles pretty well with my general thoughts on nb Anakin as well, where gender is like… It Sure Is A Thing That Exists. Anyway, Where's The Blasterfire?

#the fact that I'm still (mostly) cis after consuming such an extreme quantity of Gender Theory Things is something of a miracle #I do not mean just the above two videos. I cannot actually identify every bit of Trans And Nonbinary theory I've watched or read because... #it's just a lot. it's so much #trans headcanons #trans anakin skywalker #anakin skywalker #tatooine #star wars #phoenix talks

[nteabodies]

Qui gon has a space youtube channel where he uploads videos of cool plants and reviews books on space botany with the occasional random footage of jedi stuff. The content is either very dry or very chaotic with shaky cam and somewhat blurry footage.

He made the account when he was a padawan after Dooku (nursing a headache from Qui Gon's latest hyperfixation) wearily asked him to channel his love for plants somewhere else at least until this migraine subsides, padawan

He realises that he actually loves making videos and chatting endlessly to a camera. His first few videos end up being 3 to 4 hours long and focuses on obscure plants and random books he found in Dookus room

The jedi Council is a little illiterate when it comes to social media (it hasnt caused any problems for the order yet so its pretty much unregulated) so QuiGon isn't actually breaking any rules when he posts videos without making them private. Many jedi do have social media accounts but they tend to use it for more professional purposes, so Qui Gon's channel slips under the radar with an average of like 5 views per video.

He continues using the channel as a botany/cute animals/philosophy/ranting outlet throughout his apprenticeship.

Once he's knighted he has less time to upload videos so his most common type of videos end up being those 20 second to 1 minute clips ft. Something Funny or Something Cool or just blurry footage with unintelligible audio.

Ofc when he gets padawans, he also posts random vids of them when he catches them in 4k doing sth stupid/cute.

By the time obi wan comes around, qui gon's space youtube channel has like, 50 short videos of feemor and xanatos doing things like petting tookas, failing spectacularly at executing a flashy ataru form, being sappy while high on painkillers, running away from qui gon as he holds a flesh-eating parasite towards them and shouts 'why are you running?' etc etc

At this point he has about 20 or so regular viewers who either think he's roleplaying a jedi or are members of the jedi order who find it hilarious (mainly Qui-Gon's friends and, for some reason, Master Yoda)

Anw the point of this is to lead to the premise of one of his videos going viral during the clone wars (possibly the one of general kenobi when he was 14 doing a backflip and landing on his face. Or the one of him sleeping while half his body is dangling outside a window. Or the one where he does this).

It's good PR for the jedi bc it shows them as slightly chaotic but peaceful people who are at their core just like everyone else (idiots).

It's memed to the extent that it reaches the eyes of the Jedi Council and Anakin who immediately like brings it to obi wan like "Master is this really you??"

Obi Wan randomly discovering this treasure trove of videos that shows so much of the person his master used to be, missing his dad so much but at the same time feeling a little betrayed that Qui Gon uploaded such embarrassing videos to a public forum where anyone could view it: you are haunting me from beyond the grave master

And the channel has both clips of Qui Gon and Obi wan as padawans, so there would definitely be fan compilation videos comparing their feral padawan energy. Obi Wan feels seen bc no one used to believe him when he told them that calm Master Jinn was actually crazier than him but now he finally has proof but then angst bc Qui Gon is not there so he can't rub his face in it :(

Anakin and ahsoka discovering that their cool and calm master used to be wilder and more feral than them before qui gon died and left him to raise a child: that's actually very sad.

The general public seeing Dooku in the bg of qui gon's padawan videos: is General Kenobi... fighting a war... against his jedi grandpa?

Anw this can go two ways: either this is just a cute thing that happened during the clone wars and everything else happened the same as canon OR it inadvertently saves the galaxy

Canon: the videos make everyone involved Feel Things but don't change their actions. The empire never gets around to banning the channel so Obi wan uses it as one of his last sources of comfort in the desert as he watches over luke. Once he reconnects with Qui-Gon's force ghost, they bond by watching old videos from the channel. Years later, Luke discovers Obi Wans old datapad and inadvertently finds out about the original viral video and the channel. It ends up being a very good reference for painting a picture of jedi life pre-empire. Luke uses it as a reference when building his jedi academy but not before spending a solid hour laughing at the padawan kenobi fail compilations

AU:

Dooku watching some of the videos and all the fluff (and possibly seeing the vlog where padawan qui gon talks about the differences between attachments and love with regards to jedi and bringing up his bond with dooku): Actually maybe I can leave the jedi order and make positive change without becoming a sith lord. Maybe I can help the jedi order without agreeing with everything they do.

Anakin watching the same video on attachments vs love and going to obi wan

Anakin: Do you love me master?

Obi wan: ???

Obi wan: You are my brother anakain??? Of course I love you??? But why are you asking me?? Are you okay?? Do you have something to confess perhaps?? Like about a senator?? A senator that has a name beginning with a p??

Anakin, panicking: Ah yes p-pa-palpatine did tell me a strange story about a wise sith lord when we went for our weekly bonding session yesterday

Obi wan: I -

Obi wan: I meant your marriage to Padme actually but wtf there is a lot to unpack there.

And anakin is just reeling from the fact that

1) obi wan loves him

2) obi wan knew about padme and didn't say anything

So he doesn't get angery when Obi wan brings the palpy matter to the jedi Council and investigates him. Then add in a few well-timed coincidences bc this is a fix it and yay palpy overthrown!!

Anakin prolly voluntarily leaves the order and becomes a happy trophy husband for Padme after a long talk with Obi wan about his future where he reevaluates his life decisions. ("Anakin you will be my brother whether or not you're in the order")

Obi wan meets Qui Gons force ghost and does get to rub it in his face that he was a less feral padawan than Qui Gon.

And they all lived happily ever after except palpatine who died angrily ever after.

#star wars #qui gon jinn #obi wan kenobi #anakin skywalker #youtuber qui gon jinn #star wars au #kind of #Inspired by the #pop star wars au

[imfromthemiddlekingdom]

I love how stanikins bend over backwards to attempt to make Obi-Wan and the Jedi look callous and uncaring when all evidence points otherwise.

Obi-Wan is too harsh on him after he endangers his men and Ashoka to save a droid with confidential information on it which he didn’t wipe purposefully, oh no!!! He’s abusive!!!

Obi-Wan putting the good of the Galaxy above the ones he love because it’s his duty and philosophy to put the good of the collective above the good of the few he loves. Oh no!!!! He’s heartless!!! He should’ve let Anakin jump off the moving vehicle to save padme because muh love story!!!! He should’ve known that Anakin’s dreams about his mother dying was a vision and not a dream!!! Definitely not like Anakin told him it was a vision, “just a dream” verbatim from Anakin himself!!! Like if we take legends into consideration then Obi-Wan, someone who is strong in the Unifying force, would definitely have done shit if Anakin told him outright it was a vision but how was he supposed to know when Anakin himself 1) never had a vision before this and 2) never told his master what occurred in said vision?

Obi-Wan would’ve made Anakin fess up to the Tusken massacre if Anakin told him!!! He should’ve been a safe space for Anakin and been accepting like Padme and covered this horrendous miscarriage of justice out of love!!! He didn’t provide a safe space for a mass murderer therefore he deserves blame for it!!!!

The council didn’t want to admit a very clearly traumatized slave child who’s recently been freed because he would not be able to fully commit to their philosophy of non-attachment due to his experience and asking him to change how he viewed the world so shortly after being separated from his one support in life would be cruel so they denied him, therefore he was right to hate them!!! Especially Mace Windu because, checks notes, he was mean (???) to him (???) in the first act of the phantom menace???? Like have y’all not watched TCW and how Mace interacted with him????

Stanikins literally have every excuse under the sun to justify his every atrocity without giving him any agency in his own choice. His story is a tragedy!!! Let it be a tragedy!!! He was a slave boy with godly powers and traumatized beyond imagination! He could’ve been great if the circumstances were different, if one thing changed he would’ve been the greatest Jedi there were, but because he is literally doomed by the narrative, we cannot see him be the person he could be. He has great capacity for kindness of selflessness but because of his experience fear wins out and he desperately holds onto all the affection and love he could because his time as a slave taught him to do so. It’s a disservice to take away his agency, to make all his bad and disastrous decisions the fault of someone else, is to make him one dimensional. Let him be the villain he is and mourn the child he was and the person he could’ve been if he wasn’t doomed by the narrative before the prequels even came out. Let him be tragic. Let his decisions be tragic and doomed and unavoidable. Let him be sucked into villainy the moment he decided that his revenge is worth more than the lives of those that did not participate in the murder and torture of his mother. Let him be utterly unredeemable because of his actions. Let him doomed by his own actions as well as the narrative. Let him be himself instead of woobifying him into a victim of everyone else’s actions but his own.

He choose to massacre the Tuskens. He choose to massacre the Jedi. He choose to hunt any remaining Jedi left in the Galaxy for 20 years. He choose to put the life of his wife above the people who raised him and took him into their culture. He choose to do that himself. And it is tragic. It is sad. But it is no one’s fault but his own. His formative years shaped him into one who jealously hordes all forms of affection form those he loved most as a trauma response. He understands Jedi teachings (literally a whole arc in TCW where he teaches Ashoka what it means to be a Padawan and Jedi) he just doesn’t internalize it because of his trauma. He takes no one’s council but his own (showcased when he went to Yoda to ask for a method of cheating death and Yoda’s advice was sound if he were talking to any other Jedi other than Anakin).

Star Wars may be a a story of hope but it is also a tragedy. It’s about a boy how could’ve been great, it’s about a boy who was so full of hope and dooming himself because he’s too afraid and refuses to let the fear go so it turns into anger and hate. Taking away Anakins agency and blaming his actions on other people takes away the tragedy that is having someone great fall. A boy who was bad cannot fall and be doomed. It’s only those that have the potential to be great that falls the hardest and by taking away his own culpability in bringing in a genocidal empire (one he wished to rule no less) takes away the inherent tragedy of seeing someone so bright fall so low.

#anti anakin skywalker #Anakin skywalker critical #Star Wars #Star Wars is a tragedy #the only way for Anakin to fall from grace is if he had the capability to be kind and compassionate #and that’s what makes it a tragedy #jedi positive #pro jedi

[ahsoka-in-a-hood]

"The best way I can protect you is to teach you how to protect yourself"

See, this! I love this! Because this is Anakin talking the talk of a jedi- this is their philosophy, this is how they raise kids. This is what he learned from Obi Wan. He tried to train Ahsoka as a jedi. He understood that he might not be able to protect her, that he couldn't smother her, only try to teach her how to survive. This is how he’s meant to channel his fear of losing her- into teaching her the skills she needs. This is his job! This is why he was asked to train her, this is his greatest achievement as a jedi- teaching Ahsoka everything he could

But he's Anakin, so even while he talks the talk, he’s guided by fear and he takes it to an unhealthy extreme, pushing and pushing with a manic edge to it. And as always he thinks the jedi are too soft. Even Rex is concerned.

And then of course there’s the heartbreaking way his care for her is shadowed by his betrayal. The irony of his acknowledgement that he wouldn’t always be there to protect her is that other padawans, Cal and little Caleb who was watching Ahsoka’s test with stars in his eyes, survived order 66 because their Masters did protect them, gave their lives for them! ...but Anakin was the reason Ahsoka was in danger. Anakin was the one who traded her life for his happiness. And years later he would try to kill her with his own blade.

And Rex, who cared so much too, was just as instrumental in her survival as her training was. Anakin abandoned her, but she wasn’t alone, just like Caleb and Cal weren’t alone, just like Obi Wan survived because of his partnership with Boga.

#am I reading against the text? possibly. do I care? no. #ahsoka tano #anakin skywalker #sw totj #they are so fucking tragic and i love them #i couldn't help but watch that and remember him cutting luke's arm off and choking padme #which may not have been the intention but like

[marvelstars]

I always found Obi-Wan and Anakin´s fights interesting because while there is definitely a subtext of a familiar relationship on their part, in fact Vaderkin tells Obi-Wan to go meditate somewhere else, a very insane notion given what he just did and the fact he knew Obi-Wan was send to Mustafar to kill him.

Objectively speaking they are master and apprentice and acording to the cultural themes from myths and legends Lucas took from to create the Jedi Order, a master´s duty is to kill their student if they use their habilities agaisn´t the principles of the master.

Given Obi-Wan killed Anakin first or well, left him to burn to death, Obi-Wan was doing his duty as a member of the Jedi with orders from Yoda and as Vader Anakin understood those actions in this sense, he just had a brief moment in which he silently asked for help which Obi-Wan answered talking about their duty again, Anakin´s as the chosen one and Obi-Wan´s as his master and member of the Jedi Order, effectively rejecting their familiar relationship.

This is also why their second duel on the death star, or even their retconed duel on OWK is not a duel between family members, it´s pretty much a ritual duel between members of opposite force schools or philosophies and that´s how both Obi-Wan and Vader fought in them.

This is also why Vader wasn´t surprised to know his Son was being raised as a Jedi or at least he thought so until he discovered Luke wasn´t as trained as he should have been but recognized his advances on their duel in cloud city.

Vader didn´t discuss with his master when he told him he could be send to destroy them, that was to be expected, he isn´t surprised to know Luke was being trained to kill him, he just argued Obi-Wan could no longer train him and so he wasn´t a danger to Palpatine, which was Vader´s way of trying to keep Luke out of this whole issue but when that didn´t work, he promised he could make Luke fall to the darkside and make him join them or kill him himself but he knew that if it came to that, he could not kill his Son, Luke knew this and so did Palpatine and that´s why when Luke rejected the darkside it was Palpatine who decided to kill him until Vader stopped him knowing that would kill him.

This is also why it´s so interesting read, in one of the novels from ROTJ, when Obi-Wan´s spirit tried to contact and teach Anakin how he could become a force ghost as he lay dying, Anakin´s first question is why? not just because of Anakin´s actions but because he effectively was no longer a Jedi, so Obi-Wan tells him he fulfilled the prophecy as the chosen one but that isn´t enough for Anakin, he stayed silent and only accepted Obi-Wan´s offer when Obi-Wan told him because you are my friend/brother.

In the end, while Anakin respected the fact that being a Jedi was always going to be part of Obi-Wan´s identity, he didn´t want Obi-Wan to help him become a force ghost as a Jedi because he was the chosen one or because he fulfilled a prophecy, he wanted Obi-Wan to recognize him as his brother/friend, as family and in this way heal that old rejection from Mustafar because Anakin himself always saw him as family and after expending so many years following the traditions of the Jedi and the Sith, a tradition that made him leave his mother behind and put him at odds with his family, he was beyond faking tradition post death.

#anakin skywalker #obi-wan kenobi #star wars #Jedi Order #Sith Order #Yoda #Palpatine #luke skywalker

[eriexplosion]

Fandom Salt so I'm putting it beneath a cut.

Every day I see a new post lambasting everyone that doesn't think the Jedi are 1000% correct in everything they do because 'attachment is just about being possessive' but no one ever clarifies how precisely this translates into things like 'children should never ever know their parents or they might get attached.' That's the whole reason they thought Anakin was too old!

Coincidentally this also gets in the way of 'you can always leave the Jedi' because yes, you can, but good luck because you have been raised in a temple since infancy and have no idea how to live outside of it and you may well have exactly zero connections to help you learn. There is more than one way to make it difficult to leave!

(There is also how, if the Jedi Council had their way multiple people who had been saved through the Clone Wars would have been left to die because of the Greater Good. Plo Koon and the Wolfpack among them.)

The Jedi have positives and negatives, and people having different interpretations of what those are in a massive franchise that has both canon and legends diversions through hundreds of writers (who do not all agree with each other) is not about anyone Not Being A Real Fan of Star Wars.

Also criticism of the Jedi's choices, role in the Republic, and even how their philosophy is portrayed is not criticism of non Western regions because the Jedi are not fucking real and their Buddhist elements are what's perceived by a white American man that grew up Methodist. Please engage with these religions beyond how they relate to fictional space monks.

Anyway I don't actually hate the Jedi and in fact quite like them because 95% of them are in fact good people trying their best but I do hate how I keep running into posts that are essentially THE JEDI ORDER IS PERFECT IN EVERY WAY AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE FALLING FOR SITH PROPAGANDA. It's a topic that never ever seems to allow for nuance and that's why I get regularly frustrated about it. Especially as a fan of clones who has A Lot of thoughts about how the Jedi have helped and failed them.

#eri talks

[supremechancellorrex]

What are your thoughts on the Jedi’s no attachments rule?

Hello glorytoukraine. My, this is a complicated question but an interesting one. We can approach it a number of way, but let's break it down to core belief, how it is taught and applied, as well as individual needs versus the collective.

The core belief of non-attachment has always been subject to ethical debate. While it is also present in a number of our world religions, it varies between them on its exact meaning quite considerably, so I'm going to purely focus on the Jedi's teachings in it of itself. The idea of being compassionate but detached is not necessarily a wholly bad one. To care, but be aware of the fact that emotions can cloud judgement and get in the way of the best outcome, can be a logical solution especially considering their function was as diplomats in the Republic before the war.

However, when we see how it's taught, who it's taught to and how it's applied, problems arise.

For one, we see children taken in such as Anakin and Ahsoka who struggle to live the Jedi way of life while at the same time being raised in a Temple they consider their home from a young age. This is a conflict of interest, and these issues are continuously not dealt with with nuance even though the reality is that not everyone can live the life of the Jedi. Ethically, can children as young as toddlers consent to this strict, prohibitive way of life? To not grow up and find love and marry? To not have children? To not to seek out their parents and want to form attachments? They want to be Jedi Knights and Masters, of course they do, but part of that is because it is the only world they know. It is their world. We see Jedi react with horror when their temple is attacked such as the temple bombing case, because it's their home. That's not very detached, nor does it seem to be taken into account much as how that would cloud their vision when making decisions on being Jedi.

Ahsoka: "It's forbidden for a Jedi to form attachments, yet we're supposed to be compassionate."

Furthermore, with Anakin, we see someone whose needs during key developmental stages were not met. Like a number of children, Anakin had behavioural issues and he wasn't the first, however again and again instead of being taught coping strategies tailored to his individual needs, he is told to "let go" and deny himself his wants. This includes his mother, who everyone believes remains a slave on Tatooine, facing a brutal existence, this includes his feelings regarding other loved ones. The doctrine is inflexible, even when feelings are inevitable, and yet the code is repeated as if it is always the plausible solution.

We see this with Dooku, where he bitterly says to Master Yaddle "What choice have I?" in regards to letting go of Qui-Gon Jinn after his death. Ahsoka is left in Anakin's care as a very young mentee, yet his feelings of panic and urgency are not considered a valid reaction by Luminara when Ahsoka and Barriss are missing after the factory explosion on Geonosis. The code is continuously drummed into them as 'the solution' in spite of their individual needs, experiences and personalities.

Anakin: "Something's happening. I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more. And I know I shouldn't."

We see members of the Jedi who struggle but feel that they have to be Jedi, that they have no choice. Yet, again and again, we see Jedi form attachments despite it being forbidden, even when the code tells them not to because it is inevitable for most sentient beings. The Jedi themselves were attached to the galactic state of the Republic, they couldn't let its despotic state naturally collapse, showing an institutional bias quite at odds with their philosophy. We have also seen times when they as an institution have definitely not been very compassionate. Ultimately, the Jedi don't seem to provide proof they employ their code in a healthy way, and don't seem to have a support network for the reality of divergent individuals beyond a rhetoric and meditation techniques that don't seem to always work. That isn't truly teaching coping mechanisms to children.

So, either way, I... wouldn't trust them with any of my relations.

#star wars #the clone wars #jedi critical #anakin skywalker #ahsoka tano #yoda doesn't give good advice

[shatterpoints-and-fractures]

Bit of a Hot Take...

I’ve read a lot of meta today advocating for both “The Old Jedi were Right” vs “Luke’s redefinition of the Jedi Code is superior and the Old Jedi were Flawed” and here’s what I have to say about that:

The Old Jedi were a thoroughly just Order made of kind, compassionate, GOOD people, whose fall was honestly no fault of their own. They had their flaws and misfit members, of course (as any organization with 10,000+ complex individuals would have), but the actions of their “bad eggs” were caused by misfortune, misunderstanding, honestly understandable breakdowns, or almost solely those own members’ fault/purposefully engineered by Palpatine (coughAnakinonbothcountscough) and NOT a reflection of the greater Order.

They had a good, or at least understandable, reason for each rule they had and each philosophy they espoused as an organization, while allowing individuals to formulate their own interpretations and relationships to the Force, or even leave if they felt they could not abide by the Order’s code. And to be honest, a lot of folks here portray the Jedi as a lot more draconian than they really are in canon.

Lastly, they did absolutely nothing to deserve their fall. It was deliberate Genocide a literal millennium in the making, which they were made aware of much too late to actually do anything.

At the same time, I feel Luke’s interpretations of various Jedi philosophies and teachings are equally valid and applicable, and his allowance of marriage and prior familial in his New Jedi Order make sense given his context. He’s basically rebuilding the Order from scratch, the last survivor of a genocide that erased most the prior frameworks or even influence the Old Jedi held just thirty years prior. He can’t operate in the same way the Old Jedi did, so he recruits adults, allows families, and generally operates a much more social Order. Furthermore, he wasn’t raised as a Jedi, so while he does adopt the culture and beliefs as his own, he’s essentially viewing it from an outsider’s perspective at the beginning, with his own preconceptions and values, and thus is liable to change it. (Which is hardly a bad thing, imo)

And to be perfectly honest, even in Legends, where he founds a Jedi Order that lasts, he...fucks up. Like quite often. He cuts his training short to save his friends, which while noble and true to his character, is ultimately a fool’s errand that only nets him a missing hand, missing saber, and a whole slew of daddy issues. His faith that his father will choose a better path is ultimately validated, yes, but it could have easily backfired if Anakin/Vader was even slightly different as a person. Even years later, his own attachment/connection to his family, normally a strength, blinds him to Jacen’s Fall, and Mara’s death causes him to lash out in anger, controlled and blinded by his emotions, killing someone who wasn’t guilty (of THAT crime). (insert greatest virtue being greatest flaw here).

But still, Luke is a kind, compassionate, GOOD person. Flawed, yes, but in every way a true Jedi. Unorthodox by Old Order standards, but the right person to found a new one.

#Star Wars #Jedi Order #Meta #Pro Jedi #Luke Skywalker #Pro Luke Skywalker #New Jedi Order #Analysis

[mformarsala]

Random hc I acquired regarding SW

Clones speak Mando'a.

Cody's name is Kote. He was named by Jango on Kamino.

Cody is well-known and well-liked by almost everyone.

Cody was sexually assaulted.

Cody is good at math.

Obi-Wan is really bad at math.

Obi-Wan and Cody sing duet sometimes. There are 212th karaoke nights.

Command batch goes: Cody, Fox, Ponds, Bly, Wolffe, (Rex).

Rex was meant to be part of the command batch but he was demoted because of his hair color.

Rex was part of the 212th when Anakin was a padawan. When Anakin was knighted he clang to Rex and refused to have anyone else as his second in command.

Rex dies his eyebrows black.

Rex is named Rex because he is crowned with his golden hair.

Ponds is named Ponds because of his cautious nature and tendency to philosophy (pondering)

Wolffe is named Wolffe because he thinks wolves are really cool.

Fox is named Fox because he is graying at the temples silver fox)

Bly is named Bly after a character in his favorite romance novel.

Gree is a Nerd. He and Luminara have museum dates.

Bly and Aayla are married.

Waxer and Boil are riduure.

Decommissioning.

Clones were raised on nutrimush and rations that are very bland. Generally, they love real food but it takes everyone some time to adapt their palettes. Some clones still prefer nutrimush.

Wolffe, Boost and Sinker are Plo Koon's sons.

Jedi would have a problem with Anakin's marriage to Padme as it contradicts his vows to the order.

CT-1111 and such is actually a shorthand for a much longer designation number each clone has. Kaminoans thought it was an efficient way to address the clones without giving them individuality.

Obi-Wan is biromantic and on the ace spectrum.

Anakin wanted Obi-Wan to be his father figure. Obi-Wan could only be a brother.

Obi-Wan has creeping self-esteem issues.

Qui-Gon Jin A+ parenting.

Count Dooku actually really likes his Grand Padawan.

Corries are abused by some senators.

Fox is severely sleep-deprived and has a person working in customer service energy.

New Mandalorians rejected many traditions among them the tradition of adoption and that anyone can be a Mandalorian if they swear Resol'nare. That's why they are mostly human and blond.

High General is in charge of a System Army that consists of two Sector Armies and has two attached fleets; in times of war the Jedi High Council consists of High Generals. Obi-Wan was promoted to the council due to his prior war experience on Melida/Daan.

Each battalion has ARCs and Commandos attached.

Gregor is head of 212th's commandos.

Jedi are not getting paid for their participation in war efforts.

Due to the nature of their upbringing Jedi's and clones' reference points of normal are very far from the galaxy baseline. Surprisingly they are well positioned to understand each other though.

Clones tend to call children tubies and teenagers cadets.

Clones love water and rain.

Clones tend to think natural pregnancies are extremely weird (why would you put this process into someone's body if there is a perfectly good tube right here.).

Clones are made for Jedi but the Jedi are also made for clones.

Propaganda machine sold the clone troopers as protectors and saviors to the population of the republic and they are widely loved.

That being said clones are not legally recognized as sentients.

During their training on Kamino clones wanted war to come because they regarded it as freedom.

Cody calls Jango a rough draft

Wolffe and admiral Yularen are friends.

#this is copy pasted from my notes that I’ve been adding to for over a year #if you would like something to be credited to you please let me know! #sw #swtcw #tcw #m says #star wars #vode #the clone wars

[broitsf-ckingfreezing]

Fandom vs. Dooku: Religious Affiliation

Okay, my first rant has been making the rounds, so I wanted to come back and do a more in-depth approach (WITH EVIDENCE). Last time I was rapidly keyboard mashing on my phone whilst simultaneously howling my grievances to the moon, so hopefully everything should be a smidge more... coherent in this one.

This is taking HOURS to type up, so everything will be split into different posts. Possibly, idk. Look I have opinions and ADHD. Gotta peel those layers back like a particularly rancid onion.

(thanks @eloquentmoon for the dividers!)

Something that Star Wars as a fandom often fails to realise is that Jedi Master Dooku (or Yan Dooku, I suppose, if that's your headcanon) and Sith Apprentice Darth Tyranus are not the same. Well, they are literally the same person, but that's not what I'm getting at. The point I am trying to make here is that a character can in fact be an inherently good guy and also a genocidal psychopath. In Star Wars, one is not born a Sith. You cannot just... be a Sith and nothing else. Much is the same with a Jedi. One is either born with the ability to reach/manipulate the Force or they aren't (Force-nulls, for sake of clarity), they are not born Jedi or Sith. Jedi and Sith are religious orders. Like Protestants and Catholics, Jedi and Sith follow the same faith but with different philosophies and restrictions (or complete lack thereof regarding the Sith; anything is game if it eventually means absolute power).

Let's take a look at the best established religious order of Star Wars in canon and Legends. Mandalorians.

(A GIF of the Armourer in The Mandalorian. The subtitles read: "According to Creed, one may only be redeemed in the living waters beneath the mines of Mandalore.")

In Legends, to be Mandalorian is to dedicate yourself to the Resol'nare or the Six Actions:

Wearing the armour

Speaking the language

Defense of oneself and one's family

Raising children as Mandalorian (this is the Way)

Contributing to the clan's welfare

Answering the call of the Mand'alor or Sole Ruler

Canonically, to go against the word of the Creed, such as removing your helmet to outsiders or non-clan, was to declare yourself dar'manda or No Longer Mandalorian (not stated explicitly in canon, but widely accepted in fanon/features in SW: The Old Republic). In Christian equivalent, this would be committing sin. As shown in the GIF above, one could be redeemed for "sinning" in Mandalore's living waters. Kind of like confession and repentance in Christianity.

And like the many differing dedications to the concept of God, like Jedi and Sith as you will soon see, Mandalorians have their thoughts on the Force. The only difference here is that where God is not provable beyond doubt, the Force is. Its existence cannot be denied. However, how the Force is/should be interpreted varies from person to person, from religion to religion.

The Jedi Code

Jedi and Sith also follow Creeds.

(An image of the Jedi mantra in Basic and Aurebesh. It reads: "There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no chaos, there is harmony. There is no death, there is the force.")

The Jedi Code places great emphasis on compassion and bettering one's self; particularly, maintaining control over your emotions and learning to let go. Here especially is where fans like to pick and choose their understanding of canon like rooting through a jar of lollipops at the doctor's to get the orange one. So, I'm gonna highlight my point here with some big ass text:

Jedi do not condemn emotion

(be warned: LOTS of italics incoming)

(An edit of a still of Anakin Skywalker from Attack of the Clones. The text reads: "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life.)

Sure, where Anakin is obviously not the prime example of what a Jedi should be, and he is clearly trying to butter up Padme to embrace his frankly awful flirting attempts, we must also remember that he had been living by the Jedi Code for almost (if not exactly) ten years at this point. AND. AND AND AND. We have IMPERICAL EVIDENCE from the Clone Wars that while not often stated outright (if at all; forgive me, I only just reached the Mortis Arc and believe me, I have OPINIONS), Jedi DO love unconditionally.

(A GIF from The Clone Wars of Mace Windu. The subtitle reads: "I'm going to do whatever I can to help these people.")

Often, their first instinct unless guided otherwise by alternate intel or the Force itself, is to have faith in those who would call upon them for help. There's literally an entire movie about Ahsoka and Anakin delivering the child of Jabba the Motherfucking HUTT back to him. They could've killed the child. Held him for ransom until Jabba conceded to a beneficial alliance. Instead, they hold to the hope that Jabba would hold to some kind of honour as a parent and allow an alliance negotiation on good faith. Jabba. A literal owner of SLAVES. Who planned, because of intel from a Sith Lord, to stab the Jedi in the back.

I bring your attention to this iconic line from my last post:

(A GIF of Ki-Adi Mundi from Attack of the Clones. The subtitle reads: "He is a political idealist, not a murderer)

He is talking about Dooku, ex-Jedi, now publicly politically aligned with and the leader of the Separatist movement: AKA the "let's leave the Republic because we believe them and, by extension, the Jedi, to be corrupt" crew. He is a mark of shame upon the order. One of the Lost Twenty--Legends lore, for those who don't understand, is that there have only been twenty Jedi (including Dooku) ever to leave the Order past achieving Master status)--and yet, they still honour him as one of their own, literally saying: "he was once one of us." If that isn't a sign of unconditional compassion, then I'll eat my lightsaber collection.

I now move on to this:

(A GIF from Attack of the Clones of Obi-Wan Kenobi. The subtitle reads: "Don't let your personal feelings get in the way!")

To be in control of yourself and your reactions isn't to abandon emotion entirely. That is literally impossible. In fact, emotions are valuable to Jedi. However, they are taught to be mindful of how emotions can affect their logical reasoning.

When Obi-Wan Kenobi is ordered to hunt down Darth Vader, whom has just sworn himself to the Sith Lord and literally murdered possibly hundreds of Jedi Masters, Knights, Padawans, and Initiates by his own hand, he actually abandons his logical reasoning and refuses to kill the man he raised and fought beside for the last 13 years.

(A GIF from Star Wars III: The Revenge of the Sith of Obi-Wan Kenobi. The subtitles read: "You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you.")

This is a direct parallel to Anakin's refusal to kill recently-revealed Sith Lord Palpatine, Darth Sidious. Both of these instances were done for entirely selfish reasons.

Anakin twists a tenet of the Code upon its head and refuses to kill Sidious because, at the time, he is without a weapon, and Jedi are sworn never to kill an unarmed opponent. Logically, we must reason that these rules do NOT apply to the Sith because A) they had been thought extinct and therefore didn't need exceptions written into the Code, B) it is literally proven within that very same scene that an unarmed Sith Lord is still extremely dangerous, and C) Jedi are sworn to uphold the balance of the Force within themselves and the galaxy, therefore the Sith must be destroyed. In this moment, Anakin has allowed his fear of his wife and unborn children dying to cloud his judgement, allowed the Lord to live, and subsequently doomed the galaxy.

Obi-Wan, canonically a far better Jedi than Anakin, allows his love for the man he raised to stop him from killing him. Even out of mercy as Anakin burns in the heat of Mustafar. Yes, he walks away, believing Anakin will certainly die, but again: an unarmed Sith (literally because ya boy has NO ARMS, lmao) is still extremely dangerous. Just as Maul survived from literally being sliced in half, so did Anakin survive Mustafar. Allowing love, grief, desperation to cloud his judgement, Obi-Wan has (although unknowingly until the Obi-Wan Kenobi series set ten years later) assisted in dooming the galaxy.

It is not Obi-Wan's love for his former-padawan that has done this. It is his refusal to let him go, his fear of being the one who has to kill Anakin, despite being the only one capable of doing so because of Anakin's incredible skill and power.

Despite these contradictions: Obi-Wan Kenobi is still a good guy, and Anakin Skywalker is a bad guy.

Obi-Wan would go on to repent for the rest of his life, cutting himself off from the Force to hide his presence and watch over Luke Skywalker on Tatooine, even though the Lars family do not welcome him at all. And he will go to great lengths, putting himself in constant danger, to save Leia Organa. When this is all over, he will face his student one last time and sacrifice himself to ensure the safety of the children, to give the darkened galaxy just one more chance at hope.

(And, as an aside, Obi-Wan's final sacrifice is also to teach Luke about the Jedi tenet of letting go and dedicating yourself to something greater than your own wants and physical being, just as Qui-Gon did for Obi-Wan decades before.)

Anakin, in the meantime, Darth Vader by this point, is literally running around blowing up planets. Let me repeat that: BLOWING UP PLANETS. With billions if not trillions of lifeforms on them. And also murdering Jedi Purge survivors. And, you know, killing basically anyone that doesn't agree with the rule of the Empire. Also, enslaving a lot of people. Like, a lot of people. Including the clones he once thought brothers until he... idk, kills them all? They all die of rapid old age? I'm not exactly sure what happens to them.

Obi-Wan loved unconditionally. He was compassionate. As was in accordance with his Creed.

Anakin Skywalker was possessive. He loved only that which he wanted and that which loved him in return, but only if it was love to his standards. Obi-Wan, who surely loved him as a brother and a son, tried to stop him from taking the galaxy, therefore he had to destroy his former Master.

This is what attachment is.

Unwillingness to let go of something you can no longer have.

Do you pro-genocide fans think Obi-Wan wanted Qui-Gon Jinn to die? He literally cradles him in his arms and cries, for goodness' sake. And do you know what Qui-Gon does in his last moments? He does not fear for himself. He does not tell Obi-Wan everything will be okay. Because he knows it will. He knows Obi-Wan will be okay. Because his padawan will mourn, but he will also accept that it was Qui-Gon's time to pass into the Force. And he knows that Obi-Wan knows that he will always be with him in the Force. There is no death. There is the Force.

What he does instead is so loving and compassionate and so caring. All he wants in his final moments is to make sure that Anakin, the boy in his care, will be safe.

(A GIF from Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace of Qui-Gon Jinn comforting Obi-Wan Kenobi as he dies. He reaches up and brushes Obi-Wan's face with his fingertips)

Those who can see that GIF, look at it and tell me that it is not a highly emotional, beautifully intimate moment between a dying father and his son. Look me in the eyes and tell me that and I will call you a liar because your pants are on fire, mother fucker.

The Sith Code

We have a better understanding of the Jedi Code than we do the Sith, largely because Sith are chaotic pathological liars who constantly break their own rules.

(A GIF from Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace of Yoda and Mace Windu. The subtitles read: "Always two there are. No more, no less. A master and an apprentice.")

Only two, huh? Then tell me, Tyranus and Sidious:

WHO THE HELL IS THIS?!

(An image of Asajj Ventress from Star Wars: The Clone Wars wielding two red lightsabers)

Like Satanism to Christianity, the Sith Code stands as a direct and deliberate contradiction to the Jedi Code.

(An image of the Sith Code in Basic and Aurebesh. It reads: "Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power. Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The force shall free me.")

Let's take a quick look at the two Creeds side by side:

(An image of the Sith Code (left) and the Jedi Code (right). The one on the left reads: "Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power. Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The force shall free me." The one on the right reads: "There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. There is no passion, there is serenity. There is no chaos, there is harmony. There is no death, there is the force.")

Pretty big differences there.

One of these Creeds is dedicated to learning, maintaining balance in the Force, and achieving personal betterment through peace of mind. The other is dedicated to becoming strong, powerful, and unbeatable by comparing putting the needs of the many before the wants of yourself to slavery.

I'll let you take a guess which one is which.

I mean, it is almost explicitly said that an important initiation process for becoming a Sith is to fucking murder a Jedi. In Tales of the Jedi, which is considered canon in the current state of the series (meaning should someone with authoritative control over Star Wars later retcon this, then it will no longer be canon), Dooku kills Master Yaddle as his official initiation after the death and funeral of Qui-Gon--don't forget, before this point Dooku may have been Fallen, but he was not Sith until Sidious loses Maul as an apprentice. Say what you will about Palps, but you gotta give him credit for abiding by the Sith Rule of Two, otherwise the galaxy would've been a lot more utterly fucked than it was. Until this was canon, anyone who was not versed in Legends lore (AKA me) generally headcanoned that Dooku murdered and assumed the identity of Sifo-Dyas for his Sith initiation.

Also, I feel it is imperative to note that the Sith Code was literally inspired by Mein Kampf. You know, ADOLF HITLER'S MANIFESTO. Need proof? Here, straight from the Star Wars Wookiepedia:

What's The Point?

I've been writing for almost 3 hours and I'm only JUST getting to the bit that's actually about Dooku. Let's take a breather and re-establish some points:

Jedi and Sith are religious Creeds

You are not born Jedi or Sith

To be Jedi or Sith is to make CHOICES that align with the tenets of the Creed

To be Jedi is to be compassionate, mindful, and a protector of those who are defenseless

Jedi have rules and regulations to protect their Order from corruption and abuse of power

To be Sith is to put your wants first, to become all-powerful, and to be victorious over all others

Sith do NOT have rules and regulations (that they actually follow faithfully aside from the Rule of Two, which is broken by Dooku multiple times anyway)

Got it?

Cool let's move on.

This is what I mean by the separation of Jedi Master Dooku and Darth Tyranus. On the matter of Dooku, the fandom largely seems to be divided between:

He was manipulated by the Sith! He was actually a good guy who knew the Senate was corrupt! He was just trying to save the galaxy!

And:

He was a shit Jedi and everyone should've known he was Darkside. He abused Qui-Gon. He abused padawans. He hated children. He didn't Fall because he was always evil.

My guys.

My dudes.

My homies.

Just... WHAT?

For point A, I present to you:

(A GIF from The Clone Wars of Dooku. The subtitle reads: "I would kill you both if I didn't have to drag your bodies.)

He literally just threatened murder. Actual murder. In another scene, season 1, if someone could find the GIF that would be fantastic, Dooku says he wants the death of the Jedi. All of the Jedi. He wants to slaughter children, the people he once considered family. In season 4, to Savage Oppress, he offers the galaxy. "We will rule the galaxy together." That is a dictatorship. These are not the signs of a healthy man doing what is best for the people. This is selfish desire. This is Sith Creed.

For point B:

(A GIF from TOTJ. Dooku stands before Qui-Gon's favourite tree on Coruscant). Look, I'm not great at image and GIF descriptors. If someone would like to fix this for me, please do. I worked real hard on this analysis and I want it to be accessible.

A man who did not love his padawan, his pseudo-son, would not have visited their favourite place on the entirety of Coruscant upon their death. This was inconvenient. Him visiting this tree when he shouldn't have because he'd just infiltrated the archives and deleted evidence of Kamino brings suspicion upon him that he could've avoided by simply staying away. But he couldn't. He had to go one last time.

He also, in Attack of the Clones, expresses regret at never meeting Obi-Wan before then. Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of him. Yes, because an abused child whose evil, evil master, again, abused him, would ever speak of his own child to said-abuser. Dooku may be a Sith of a decade by that point, but don't forget that Sith are entrenched in negative emotion. We have no idea what he was feeling meeting the son of his son for the first time. He could have easily murdered Obi-Wan before Anakin and all of the Jedi arrive. He later tries to multiple times. The first thing he does is offer an alliance. An apprenticeship. He even tells Obi-Wan the truth of Palpatine in the Senate, not that he (Obi) has any reason to believe him (Dooku).

Again, what's my point?

My point is that he is both a good guy and a bad guy.

He can be both.

He was once good. He Fell. He was not always one or the other. Because that is how Star Wars WORKS. His doubts over the Senate, his fears that the Order is falling to darkness, his utter grief at the death of his child; it crippled him. He could not overcome the Darkside. And so he Fell. Perhaps originally he had good intentions.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions after all.

Eventually, the anger, the grief, the fear, corrupted him. As is how the Darkside works. Yes, it is a choice. It is a Creed he chooses to follow. But to walk back from the Darkside is also a journey that requires incredible strength.

In canon, only one achieves it. Anakin Skywalker.

Early on, perhaps Dooku could have been saved. But by the time of Attack of the Clones, he is utterly corrupt and evil and literally planning an absolute takeover of the galaxy. He is far beyond redemption.

Look, thanks for coming to my TED talk. If you enjoyed this post and would like to see more, please consider tipping! I am an unemployed chronically anxious and depressed sewer rat. I also accept love in reblogs and comments XD

I feel like @jedi-enthusiast and @antianakin will like this.

#star wars #count dooku #darth tyranus #star wars canon #star wars fanon #canon vs fanon #star wars legends #star wars prequels #the mandalorian #mando'a #religion #star wars religions #the clone wars #tcw #obi wan kenobi #qui gon jinn #pro jedi #the sith #the jedi #jedi appreciation #look aint gonna sugar coat #we talkin bout jesus #we talkin A LOT #im so sorry #but im not #because fuck this fandom and its weird opinions on shit that is actually easy to understand if you have a dang brain

[jedimasterbailey]

Hello, friend. 🖤🤍📖💀 for the ask game, please. 🙏

Hello there friend 💙💚 Thank you for the ask and thank you for choosing some questions that really make me think 🤔 let’s do this!

Link to the original ask questions below if y’all wanna play along which please do because I love to snoop 👀

🖤- Which character is not as morally good as everyone seems to think?

Dooku and yes I know he’s a Sith Lord and not considered a hero by any means but since the Tales of the Jedi episodes (which I love btw don’t @ me there) but I feel that fandom kinda looks at him like they do with Anakin. That even though Dooku and Anakin have done HORRIBLE INEXCUSABLE crimes that killed so many people and betrayed their loved ones that just because they “had their reasons” then that makes them worthy of sympathy when in reality that shouldn’t be the case. Dooku didn’t do what he did for the greater good or to serve others; he did what he did to serve himself and what he wanted. Dooku knew what the Empire was going to be (I.e. an all human regime that oppress alien races) and yet still went along with it thinking he could rule that regime himself one day. I don’t care that he was hurt by losing Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan; he still hurt and betrayed them regardless. If you ever read the Master and Apprentice book by Claudia Gray, you would come to find out Qui-Gon was 1.) terrified of Dooku because of his very dark actions 2.) Overlooked him for his first Padawan (Aveross I think his name was?) and 3.) Fixated on his own interests over being a proper teacher for Qui-Gon. In short, Dooku is a pretentious self serving privileged man of status and power and that’s that. The moral compass he has is whatever benefits him.

🤍-Which character is not as morally bad as everyone else seems to think?

Mace. Windu. For fucks sake y’all he is NOT a bad man! Had it not been for Anakin’s choices, he would have ended the Clone Wars once and for all and brought peace to the galaxy avenging every single soul who have lost their lives or sacrificed so much in the war that never needed to happen. Anyone who has read the Legends Shatterpoint novel or pay attention to Mace’s actions/words in the Clone Wars show and in the movies can see that Mace is a very admirable Jedi that anyone should look up to. His fighting style is all about using the Dark Side against those who use it which means this man has had to master his own demons for sake of doing good. That is a very rare quality even amongst the Jedi. He stays true to himself and Jedi philosophy within reason despite others trying to sway him. He also raised Depa who we all know is a wonderful woman who went on to teach Kanan who was a great Jedi. So yes, Mace was more than deserving of his rank and if he was such a bad man who come no one in his lineage ever turned to the Dark Side or left the Order? Clearly he was doing something right. And don’t even go down the tone deaf “he was mean to Anakin” route because Mace was always understanding, trusting, and respectful of Anakin, he was just trying to save Anakin from himself. We love and respect Mace Windu in this house 💜

📖-If you had to remove one book from the series, which would you choose?

The Ahsoka book for sure, sorry to those who like it but it’s not for me and that’s okay since not all books are gonna be everyone’s taste. As a Barrissoka stan I can’t stand whatshernuts constantly being up Ahsoka’s ass and causing her problems. Ahsoka was doing just fine on her own trying to survive after very traumatic events, losing everything she knew, and learning to survive in a galaxy that wants you dead for who you are until of course the stupid ass village needed saving. The book could have had a much better plot. The only parts of the book I liked where when Ahsoka was alone in her thoughts processing and trying to decide her next move. We could have had a very healing story much like Obi-Wan did in his show but nope. Furthermore, I’ve got beef with E.K Johnson for many reasons, the major one being that she’s a very ignorant person that tries to be the “white savior” so… yeah not fond of her work, her views of these characters we love so much, or the story she made for Ahsoka.

💀-If you had to choose one major character to die, who would you choose?

Palpatine of course because without out him the entire galaxy would be spared from mass genocide, destruction, pain, suffering, and pure evil. All of our favorite characters would have a much happier ending 😭 we also wouldn’t have dickheads like Tarkin rising to any position of power.

Link to original unpopular opinion asks

#thanks for the ask! #unpopular opinion ask game #star wars

[magnetarbeam]

Trying to develop a complex interpretation of Ahsoka can be a real bitch sometimes, especially when I'm so ADHD I can rarely even watch a show, let alone analyze data from it.

I'm trying to let go of the perception of her as somehow being a perfect Jedi, that as far as I can tell arose post-TCW. She is an inherently selfless and compassionate individual, and she was brought up with the lessons of any Temple-raised Jedi, but her entire apprenticeship was spent as a soldier. Sure, Jedi aren't supposed to be that, but I really imagine that that's less important to her than the fact that Jedi are that now. It's not long before she's putting everything she has and more into fighting because if she doesn't, it'll mean people die that she could have saved. Especially for the clones, since almost nobody other than the Jedi will put in any amount of effort to save them.

(When I talk in this context about whether or not she's a good Jedi, I'm trying to do so in the context of how it's defined at the time, instead of the philosophy of the ass-end-of-Legends New Jedi Order that I often write her in in time travel scenarios. Her relation to that is a whole separate essay.)

Coming of age in this environment limits the amount of stuff she's able to learn about the role that Jedi are supposed to have. She's less of a negotiator because that skill is in a lot less demand than it was five years ago.

And she's good at fighting. For all that I hate the extent the show goes to display it (I'm not even gonna get into all the levels of bullshit the Marg Sabl thing is) the point is that she is naturally talented as a fighter and a tactician. I think this feeds into one of her major flaws: Her pride.

Losing her squadron over Ryloth is a failure that I used to dismiss as just a natural result of a teenager being shoved into a military command position with no training at all. And sure, it might not have happened if she had been trained, but the point lies in the fact that she thought she could complete the objective herself. There are a few layers to this, I think.

My specific headcanon is that Ahsoka had the top saber combat scores of initiates for three years before the war. She learned from the best pilots in the Order in Anakin and Plo. You also could throw in something about her having killed an akul and taken its teeth for her headdress, proving herself as an adult by Togruta customs, at an exceptionally young age. The effect is that at this point, she's let her skills go to her head, and she assumes she can do it instead of actually thinking it through.

(Had she been trained, I think she'd at least have remembered that she's in an interceptor with no missiles, and that even a heavy bomber like a Y-Wing doesn't try to 1v1 a frigate, let alone a Lucrehulk.)

When she first met Anakin, he initially rejected her, and I think that left her with a fear of disappointing him that she never totally got over. She feels like she needs to constantly prove that she's good enough for him, that she won't just slow him down. The canon from the Jedi Apprentice novels about aging out of the Temple and stuff is... very questionable at best in its logic, especially considering how the TCW movie frames it as Ahsoka probably being actually too young to be a padawan, but I like to use it in my headcanon because it implies that her assignment to Anakin was basically Ahsoka's last hope for being a Jedi, and that further punctuates this fear of rejection and also emphasizes their similarities in terms of both being reckless and aggressive and insolent and the kind of traits that probably make the Order see them both as disasters just waiting to happen.

Obviously Ryloth is a pretty big slap in the face for her, and she does get more reasoned and careful in her approach as time goes on (compare her first and second times on Felucia, for example) but that kind of... self-obsession, I guess, never totally goes away.

The way the GAR is structured doesn't help here, where she's often the only Jedi around to block blaster bolts and make decisions that actually minimize casualties.

Later on, it's less "I won't fail because I haven't failed before" and more "I'll do it because I have to do it to save lives, and I'm the only person who can and will do it." This is even more of a thing when she's fighting to depose Maul. The Mandos (Bo-Katan in disney canon or Spar in my more Legends headcanons) need a Force-user to fight a Force-user, and who knows when or if the broken Senate and Order are going to decide to do anything about it.

Where someone like Obi-Wan might have tried to reason with Maul first, Ahsoka sees that Maul's already done the stuff he has, concludes that he's beyond reasoning, and doesn't give away her position to try to talk him down.

I'm sure I'll come up with more to say here, but I've been typing for like an hour and a half and my attention has moved on.

#star wars #star wars the clone wars #ahsoka tano

[mercuriallycooperative]

so i was reading a bunch of star wars fanfic (i have not actually watched star wars yet. shh.) and ruminating about how clearly the Jedi teachings have a serious disconnect between what they ostensibly mean (as a perfectly stable space philosophy based on a perfectly stable nonspace philosphy) and how they are presented, definitely irl (i.e. a number of people being like NO ATTACHMENTS?! NO EMOTIONS?! HOW CAN YOU NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU GOVERN?! HAVE YOU NO COMPASSION?! when i am given to know that is in fact strictly incorrect) and presumably also in-universe because i have a very limited view of what exactly happened in Anakin's head during Everything but popular consensus seems to be that There Was A Disconnect. and also possibly he needed therapy he maybe didn't get, and also possibly that since the Jedi didn't usually take in older initiates, they were legitimately unprepared to raise someone with different fundamental foundational ideas, even notwithstanding his specific circumstances.

*anyway*

then i jumped to reading a youjo senki fanfiction where Tanya was doing the 'i believe strongly in the intensely rational and try not to let myself be ruled by emotions because that's foolish and inefficient, what do you mean i am not always self aware about that' thing. (i have personal interpretations of Tanya but they're neither here nor there for the purposes of this thought.)

and then i made the connection of hey, what if post-life-as-Tanya she got yeeted into star wars? i mean you could also do some neat things with Salaryman getting yeeted directly there without being in youjo senki proper first, idk, but the main point is just... what sort of Jedi would Tanya be? because like her thing about ah yes we must not let emotions rule us, rational behaviour is the only way forward, *is* in direct opposition of any YOU MUST USE EMOTIONS TO FUEL THE DARK SIDE or whatever is going on there, like, that shit is something Tanya would be explicitly philosophically opposed to. (especially if she doesn't have to go full magical doping into combat.)

on the other hand Tanya is... her decisions do not make her seem like an ideal Jedi, to the untrained eye. also while i personally interpet her even as Salaryman to have been neuroatypical as heck and therefore (mood) having a somewhat nonaverage experience with how emotions work, i feel also like there are some that she probably does just... not unpack properly? like, in a way that impedes inner peace and self-understanding or something, idk. which i feel like would be a quiet albatross around any potential Jedi teachings she may or may not absorb?

like i said idk, but mostly it would be interesting to explore the idea of how Tanya would react to getting isekai'd again, now into Star Wars, maybe as a baby Jedi. even notwithstanding how you could use her to fuck up the entire plot of Star Wars in basically any way you see fit, her relationship with the philosophical structure would be interesting to explore. also there are many ways you could append Being X to that superstructure, or, like, unappend him, and I think that would be neat.

#youjo senki #saga of tanya the evil #star wars #my contribution #it was one of #tanjaded #'s youjo senki fate crossovers that i was reading btw #the saga of tanya the evil

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

I know that you've written extensively about why forcing the Order to allow 'attachment' (which...99.99% of the time is either a misunderstanding of what that means and really just means "marriage is allowed") is not really Jedi positive (and I agree). I was wondering though, do you think there could be a way for fic to have the Order allow for marriage without totally disrespecting how attachment works in Jedi culture? I ask because there are married Buddhists and I have a few ideas how it may

Maybe.

I'm not familiar enough with Buddhism to comment on the real-world parallels here, but just from an in-universe perspective, there could be some wiggle room without disregarding everything that's established about the Force, how the Order works and why it works like it does. I can see two types of exceptions: - Jedi in situations like Kanan's (isolated from the Order, with his team as only support system, in a committed relationship - since there's no Order to be committed to - but aware of the risks; when feeling emotionally compromised, he asks other people to make the call, like Ezra in the mission to rescue Hera) - for a 'normal' Jedi in the 'normal' Order... intra-Order marriages. The way I figure this would work is that they'd be pretty rare and pretty regulated, but at least they've got a safety net in the form of all the other Knights and Masters who can point it out and step up if things aren't working out. They can be assigned to different missions when impartiality is needed and to the same when it's routine stuff and they work well as a pair.

Why just Jedi marrying Jedi? In an ideal case, both would be equally devoted to their duty, would understand that missions come first in daily life (so no arguments like 'you're never around for me, like Padmé and Anakin had) and that innocent lives come first no matter what (so no sacrificing other people for your personal happiness). I mean, Jedi do have very close friends and other Jedi they consider family and that's basically how they treat those bonds. What's different imo about marriage is that you promise to your spouse to always put them first, which is incompatible with the same vow made to your duty as a Jedi - but if they're both Jedi it might be like they'd be both married to the Order (which in essence is what being a monk is) and to each other. Risky, but who knows.

We see that Jedi raised within the Order from a young age tend to do leagues better than Anakin where dealing with loss or duty is concerned, so I imagine it could, hypothetically, work sometimes.

Ironically enough, that's how Karen Traviss' Altisian Jedi went about it iirc (minus the carefully making sure it doesn't go horribly wrong because 'there's nothing wrong with love ever')? She's not what I'd call positively inclined towards the Order lmao. I also vaguely recall that those relationships she wrote about ended rather terribly. Then again, the main philosophy behind her Altisians was 'Jedi bad, being free and not participating in the war and having sex good.' But as long as that's not the underlying idea behind the fic, yeah, it can work 😂 I mean, it's fic. Almost anything can work.

I wouldn't want it to ever become canon - I prefer my Jedi celibate, tbh, I love that aspect of their characters (yesIknow in canon they don't have to be celibate, but from what we see most never choose to pursue a relationship and I love that about them and tbh I prefer no romantic relationships at all rather than flings) but if I had to write a fic that's how I'd do it. I don't know if they'd call it marriage though

#ask #blenderblender1811 #jedi order #attachment vs love #marriage #i'm in that very weird spot where i belong to the part of the christian faith that sees 'forbidding marriage' as wrong even for leaders #while also recognizing the truth behind 'marrying is good - not marrying is better' where devotion to a calling is concerned #so i'm like: #no relationships out of choice = good. duty and relationship = compatible. casual relationships = nah. committed relationships = yah #which obviously has an influence on my answer #ofc star wars doesn't work like real life and the jedi aren't christians or catholic monks #but where my own taste is concerned i'd rather they all be celibate with maybe the rare fic exception of a jedi marriage (could be cute) #and kanan-like situations