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starseneyes · 1 year

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Chenford - Lucy Chen / Tim Bradford - The Rookie - Season 5 - Ep 19

"A Hole in the World" AKA Clothes Call Back Night

Folks, when that first sneak peek came out, I dissolved into laughter in the dining room, and my husband had to momentarily question my sanity (just like every Sunday afternoon). It hit on practically every discussion point from the Chenford Twitterverse over the past few weeks.

I had to sit here and give the world's smallest round-of-applause-by-one to the team behind The Rookie for putting that out there. Genius way to get a lot covered in a short amount of time.

SPOILER ALERT: If you want a spoiler-free take on what's going on in Chenfordland, I'm sorry, you're in the wrong place. Come back when you're ready to be spoiled. Or don't come back at all! You're welcome to do as you choose.

For those about to rock, I salute you! So, let's dive in.

Lucy studying with note cards, written notes, and likely a practice test is just so on-brand, and I kinda love that we start the scene with her in her element.

The domesticity of Chenford never fails. It's insane to remember that as of their first kisses in the midst of undercover preparation (and under covers, of course) was only Tim's third time in that apartment, and first time there out-of-uniform.

Less than a season later, he's practically living at her place (while I head-canon Kojo is doing a great job helping his nephews with the transition to Los Angeles and playing in their yard).

And is Tim wearing the 4x01 almost-sleepover (heh) hoodie!? It might be the same bottoms, too! If they dug those up (and God bless whoever either saved them or bought duplicates), that's just amazing. I had a mini-geek out, and I bet I'm not the only one!

And for whatever reason, Tim's wearing shoes with this outfit, and I can't tell if that's because he instinctively put them on, or someone thought we wouldn't be seeing his feet in the shot. But, it made me chuckle because I'm hoping it's the former.

And is Lucy's hair being held up by a pen!? Okay, I'm officially jealous. I'm of the "chopsticks in hair" generation, and I always needed two. My friends could stick a good ole Number 2 in their hair and be good for the day. My hair's so fine and straight that I just couldn't do it. Rock it, Lucy Chen!

"Hey." "Hey." "When did you get in?" "Uh, depends. What day is it?" "That bad, huh?"

We're getting the first-blush look at these long hours we heard so much about. Remember, Tim's predecessor was dead on his feet. Yes, he had triplets at home, but that was on top of the brutal Metro hours.

"Look, I'm 80% sure it's, it's Thursday." "It's Tuesday."

Yes, it is! And we're all cozied up to our couches, beds, floors, recliners, and dining room tables to soak up the Chenford goodness. And mmmm, does it go down smooth!

"I stayed up anyways. Thought maybe I'd get lucky and he'd turn himself in."

Girlfriend. Girl. Friend! Did you really just use an undercover Tim/Lucy-ism? Throwing me straight back to 5x01 and Lucy/Juicy wondering if they could get lucky three times in the same day.

Lucy definitely wants to get lucky. But Metro hours aren't the best for getting busy, it seems.

"Oh, babe."

And there we've got the long-awaited pet name!! We still don't know what Tim calls Lucy (could also be Babe), but I saw the Twitterverse start to spin in the opposite direction at this particular name-drop.

Lucy Chen, how can you slay an entire population with a single word? You so don't know your power.

Tim sits next to the love of his life at her dining area smiling. He spent so much time last week trying to prove to the camera crews that he wasn't a softie. But we all know the truth. Tim Bradford is soft for those he loves—especially the love of his life.

His eyes trail to the notes spread atop the counter as his hand trails to her thigh.

Can we completely see it? No. But there's enough anecdotal evidence based on the placement of Tim's arm in the two-shot to conjecture, so I'm rolling with it.

Last time I didn't roll with the evidence, y'all crowded into my comments to remind me I was very wrong. It was a fun time.

"What's all this?" "What?" *arm smack*

Y'all, Lucy is so me in this moment. And I only say that because I'm older and she's fictional. To say I'm Lucy would mean I'm fictional, right? And (as far as I know) I'm real. Unless it's a Deckard in Blade Runner situation... in which case... I'm already Rachel.

But the affectionate arm smack is a total Rachel move (as my husband would confirm).

"I'm studying for the Detective's Exam." "Since when?" "I didn't tell you?"

I've seen folks jumping all over Lucy for "not telling Tim about something life-changing", but it'd be great if that could stop. Have you ever loved someone so much that you shared everything with them? I have. I tell Matthew everything.

And, yet, there are still times I'm convinced I've told him everything only to find I imagined the conversation because our lives are just too busy.

Look, Lucy and Tim already have demanding jobs with demanding hours. Yes, her going Detective would constrict their off-time more, but they're already grappling with the realities of cops-in-love juggling duty to a profession they earnestly adore and investing in a still-fairly-new romance.

It's not a choice of omission on her part. It's the overwhelm of juggling combined with the fact that she does tell him everything, so she assumed he already knew.

Communication issue? Clearly! Completely normal? Absolutely!

For goodness sake, Tim didn't even know what day it was. Living in a constant state of exhaustion and somehow functioning is my normal, so I can tell you that try as you might, something might slip through the cracks.

"If I'm gonna work undercover, the best move is to become a detective in some division like intelligence or narcotics, right?" "Right."

First off, Lucy Chen promotion-time, baby! I know a lot of us have been waiting for the moment when she'd get to move up. Heck, Aaron made P2 before she got to move up, and it's driven me nuts.

Look, I have no idea what a realistic timeline is in the real world. But Nolan's Golden Ticket allowed him to move up. Nyla moved up. Angela moved up. Tim's moved up. It's about damn time my fictional bestie got her turn.

Second, Supportive Tim Supremacy for the Win! Like, once he's on the right page, he doesn't skip a beat. Since I am married to the most supportive man in the world, I'm grateful Lucy's gonna marry the most supportive man in The Rookie world.

"So you got the tap." "Harper and Lopez are backing me."

Look at the glee on our girl's face! And that little chuckle from Tim? Oh, swoon!! Yes, I am a sucker for a supportive partner.

If you knew the number of times over the last near-20 years that this man has had my back, you'd shake your head and wonder why he's stuck around with how many times I've leaned on that support. Supportive partners make my weary heart happy.

"All I have to do is score in the top 12, which-" "Which you will."

BAM! Because Lucy Chen can do anything. Tim once held her hand (yes, it was a handshake, go with me here...) and told her to never let anyone tell her she couldn't do something.

Translation: Lucy Chen can do anything and Tim Bradford earnestly believes that.

And Lucy feels that support. In all of her relationships—friendship, romantic, familial—she has yearned for support. Sadly, the most supportive of her friends is gone. Her parents are dead to me (I hope the Mother's Day flowers Lucy sent were dried and shriveled like her mother's heart).

And her last boyfriend tried to persuade her to walk away from her dreams. Contrast that with Tim Bradford who was willing to push her towards them, even when that meant pushing her away from him. And now, as they're together, Tim is still supporting her without question.

My husband is that way. I often ask him about things. Not because he rules me (nope. I'd never survive a relationship like that), but because I believe in communication. So, I'll talk things out with him, and before I offer him my reasoning he says, "Do it." That's been his general answer to me for nearly two decades.

So, seeing Tim mirror my beloved plastered a grin on my face so wide I was approached on the street to be in the sequel to SMILE.

Lucy's got a smile on her face, too, as she hums out her appreciation and leans in for the kiss.

Special Shout Out to the DP and Director for giving us that two-shot with push-in of the kiss with the loud LIPSMACK to counterbalance Chenford's last apartment kiss/near-kiss that left me wondering if coffee tumblers made kissy sounds as the hot liquid settled.

I feel like someone on the decision-making team was like, "They want to see lip locks? No fucking way they'll miss this one! This'll shut them up."

No way to miss Tim leaning on the counter with one arm (bringing him closer to Lucy's height, because this man is taller than her in both legs and torso). And we actually see lips-meeting-lips.

Though it's a simple-enough kiss, there's suction there, which helps imply action and intention rather than passivity. Wow, I'm a weirdo analyzing a kiss this deeply, but whatever. It's my Meta, I'll over-analyze if I want to. It's square-kissing versus Tim's top-lip-sucking action he reserves for more passionate moments.

And that's beautiful. Because not every kiss is about undressing. Some kisses are about being beautifully exposed and fully accepted and loved. That's Tim and Lucy in this moment.

Tim is the supportive lover of her dreams. Lucy is the supportive lover of his dreams.

In a world where both of them grew up feeling unloved and unsupported for one reason or another, they have found more than a safety net in one another—they've found home.

Tim's affectionately rubbing her arm, and she is completely relaxed in his love.

"Well, I guess we should get used to not seeing each other so much."

The Metro move afforded them more time together than Lucy switching stations would have. But this latest move for her will add to her hours.

It's not a reason not to make this move. But... there's another move these two could make together. *hint hint* The kind that involves one set of keys for two lives? *hint hint*

Lucy deserves this. Hands down. And Tim knows that. But he also has a lot of trauma where UC and working long hours with someone he loves. It ended in heartbreak.

Now, Tim doesn't believe that's where he and Lucy are headed... but I think a small part of him in the back of his mind fears it. And that's something the two of them need to talk out.

Also, can we note the interesting choice to use the kiss as an opportunity to change angles? We went from being behind the counter aimed toward the windows to being in front of the windows aimed at the kitchen.

I'm not sure of the motivation for the move, but the film minor in me made note of it. Fairly classic technique.

"Mm, right. Yeah. Between Detective Hours and Metro Hours..." "Well, it's okay. We'll figure it out."

Tim winks to her as he departs, echoing Lucy's words to Tamara when they were first confronted with the difficulties of navigating work and love.

"Is that the sign up list for the Detectives exam?" "Two weeks to go." "I'll be ready." "I have no doubt about that."

Nyla has been a champion for Lucy for a long time. She was the first one to see Lucy's aptitude for undercover, and she's the one who prepped and primed her for her first solo op.

Love seeing women supporting women. There are too many shows that pit woman-against-woman in the name of drama.

Yes, it happens. I had a coworker once who was the most backstabbing person you could ever meet. I once told my boss that I thought she was coming for my job. My boss, of course, told me I was overthinking.

Two weeks later my boss called me into her office to tell me that I was right. Yeah, I knew I was right.

But there were also really amazing women who I worked with—women who uplifted you, who helped you when things were tough, who excelled at the give-and-take of being coworkers.

It's nice to see that type of relationship amplified on a show like this.

"No way you make Top 12. One of the detectives has it out for you. No matter how well you do on the written, they're going to sink you on the Oral."

Smitty might be the unreliable narrator 90% off the time, but that 10% can be crucial, and Lucy's smart enough to be aware of that.

"So you won't be making detective. But, um, there's other career paths, right?"

Aaron can be direct, and that music cue made it seem like we needed to smile and laugh, but it felt pretty final, actually.

I don't want to see anything taken away from Lucy. She's put in so much work and watched as Nolan was promoted ahead of her. As her best friend was taken from her. She helped Tim get promoted.

But now it feels as if her own career is standing still, and I selfishly want more for Lucy than just Chenford.

I am not of the opinion that a relationship can fulfill your every need. In fact, I encourage my husband to go out with his friends and do things without me. I think it's healthy for us to have different interests, even though many overlap. He supports the fact that I love working and abhor the idea of being a stay-at-home mother.

Our relationship works for us. Everyone wants something different in their relationship. But I feel like Lucy really wants to do something more and move forward in her career. And if that's what she wants, I want it for her.

Ball Camera

Anyone else having a BB-8 geek out moment? Or is that just me? Also, we've come a long way from Tim pushing his chest camera into a room with his baton.

"Hey, Harper. Uh, Tim is still in with IA." "Look the Officer Involved Shooting Interview is very thorough. Tim's fine."

Tim is not fine, and his girlfriend wife knows it. Maybe he'll be fine career-wise, but Lucy's worried about more than that. She's worried about his state of mind.

"Hey, Chen. I've got news for you." "It's not a great time Smitty." "It's about the Detective exam. The detective blocking you is Prim."

Ohhhh, that name. I remember that name. From the five-player trade. Lucy tried so hard to be discrete, but as soon as it got out there, it was only a matter of time for the Cop Gossip of this bizarre High School extension to take over.

"I did warn you." "I know."

And we all knew that it was going to come back around, at some point. Is it wrong that I wish Lucy didn't have to deal with this fall out?

And much as this is Nyla's "I told you so" moment, she takes no pride in it. That's why we don't hate her in this moment. She is right and she doesn't like it any more than Lucy does.

"Hey. Let him talk to Grey first." "Yeah."

Lucy wants so much to go to his side. Her Tim Sense is tingling as soon as he walks by, but his brain is on the next thing that needs to be done. He's on autopilot, and she can see it.

Look, Tim's no stranger to having to pull the trigger. That doesn't make it any easier. Tim values human life, so ending one is never going to be a light matter.

And pulling the trigger on someone who wears the uniform? For Tim, that's gotta be even harder.

Remember, this is the guy who stayed inside the lines for years and stood by while racism ran rampant. He rationalized it away, right? But, then he started to really face and confront the darker elements and systemic injustices inherent to the Force.

This is another extension of that—a truly awful cop who used their influence, position, and authority to kidnap and murder little girls. Yes, Tim pulled the trigger because he was about to be the one buried if he didn't. But it doesn't make it any easier.

"Hey, you know you had to take the shot." "I know." "Just because he wanted to die doesn't mean he wasn't dangerous." "I know."

Even Grey can see that Tim's veil is slipping. He is a human being, damnit, and he feels this shit.

Grey stands, trying to make a connection, to get closer to Tim, to approach him man-to-man. But the words coming out of his mouth echo typical talking points of the Badge.

Grey sighs, dropping the list of "reasons". He tries another tactic. My favorite tactic—asking.

I worked for a humanitarian non-profit for almost a decade, and my favorite part of the work was our policy of "Ask, Don't Tell". We never walked into a disaster zone with a game plan. Too many organizations do that, and it doesn't address the immediate needs of the community.

Instead, we would ask what was needed. And I think in life that's also a damn good strategy.

"Is there anything I can do?" "Can I get back to you on that?" "Take your time."

This I love. Two men meeting in the middle. Acknowledging that sometimes shit just sucks and nothing you can say will change that.

But, also, Grey's abandoning the "just throw things at it until something sticks" tactic to earnestly ask what Tim would have him do. And that's so much deeper than empty words.

And the fact that Tim Bradford, who never asks for help, leaves it open ended? That's growth.

Yes, it's important that he lets Lucy in more and more. But it's also important that he lets others in. This isn't just about growing in a romantic relationship, but growing as a person.

Yes, I know I harp on this a lot. But I've seen too many good people backslide horribly because they invested all their growth in a relationship rather than in themselves.

Relationships are great. I'm in one. I'm in a damn good one. But my healing and growth are mine and have to be separate from Matthew. If he dies tomorrow, suddenly, my progress can't die with him. I have to be able to stand on my own.

And that's what I wish for Lucy and Tim. The standing on their own part, I mean.

"You're a badass. And I'm no slouch."

I need to do Wopez next. I keep saying that when I catch up on Chenford, I need to go back and do Wopez. And lines like this really make me wanna.

"How are you doing with everything?" "I'll be okay."

It's taken a while, but Tim and Lucy have worked their way up to light PDA in the workplace, and I love it for them. Likely, they aren't seeing as much of each other at home, so it's natural that it might leak out more when they're in public.

I love how Lucy briefly has both her hands on his arm. There's something resembling a hug, there, that I love.

She know Tim well enough to know he doesn't want to hug it out at the station. But she's still trying to find her own ways to let him know that she's there for him.

Also: Is this the episode of the comeback clothes!? Because that jacket is totally the one from Season 4, Episode 3 when Tim and Lucy were discussing how people might get the wrong idea about them if she became his aide, right?!

I know one of y'all will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm leaving it in, because I'm fairly convinced.

Also, Tim and Lucy, y'all didn't need to worry about people getting the wrong idea. We all got the right idea, and y'all are adorable together.

"I want to be helpful." "I know. Thank you."

Her little hand on his chest (right over his heart) is so sweet, but also a little sad. Because she knows that's the part of him that's really hurting right now.

Also, I love Tim thanking her. We're a long cry from all the times when Tim would tell Lucy she was overstepping in the past. Because, they're partners in life, now, and this is her place.

And his little arm tap? It's so cute to get to see them start to be more tactile.

Remember, this wasn't a typical transition. They went from being best friends—the most important relationship in each other's lives—to one-and-only. They had to transition everything over from a very intimate point, already, and add in the layers and figure out what felt right for them as a couple.

But, selfishly I'm loving the light PDA. Feels just about right for them.

Plus, it's more than either of them typically displays at the station with past love interests. Yes, I know there was one kiss way back with an ex of Tim's, but he wanted out of that, so it doesn't count.

"You need help studying? There's no way I would have have scored as well on the Sergeant's exam without you."

Oh, how I love a good call-back. This is going back to Season 2, y'all, and TO Tim era. And I adore the surprise on Lucy's face. She really wasn't expecting him to offer, and it's damn adorable that he did.

Lucy isn't giving up. She knows that Prim's got it out for her, but she's still going after this. And I'm damn proud of her.

"That's right. You owe me." "I don't owe you."

Ah, and there's Tim's bull-headedness coming back to remind us that he's not all warm and fuzzy. And, y'know, it made me chuckle. Because Tim didn't magically change over the course of the show.

Has he healed a lot? Yes. But at the core he was always a tough-outside, smoothie-inside... at least for his people. His trauma and pain caused him to wear that toughness as a roughly-patched-together armor.

And Look. At. Our. Babies. FLIRTING! Lucy even got the finger point in there!

"You owe me." "Okay."

Lucy gets a hand on his open shirt (wow, she has a thing for tugging at his clothing that's unexpected and yet totally in-character), and he's gone. Boy is gone for his girl.

Because Lucy probably wants to spend a little time studying up on other things before they get to the books. And Tim's totally onboard.

And has Lucy been wearing the Valentine's Day necklace most of the episode? It's so small that it's hard to tell, but I think she has. So, we're really owing some love to the Costuming Department this week. Thanks, y'all. We love you.

And I love you! Thank you for reading and taking this ride with me. It's been a really tough few weeks with illness and broken down cars (and bumped into cars) and juggling too many things. So, Chenford night is a nice respite for which I'm thankful.

Did it take Tim and Lucy a while to get comfortable? Sure. I posit this was the first episode written after we got a taste of post-coitus Chenford and folks started vocalizing what they wanted to see out of the duo, because I feel like about 12 boxes were ticked in that first scene alone.

I'm not going to get worked up about the promo for the next episode. If TPTB want to rip my heart out and stomp it, they wouldn't be the first. Actually, the wouldn't be in the first two dozen TPTB to do that.

No, I'm not kidding. When you dream of someday working in television, you watch a lot of television. Inevitably, I ship someone in every show.

But The Rookie's track record with core ships does give me some hope. A little. A microscopic amount. And that's enough, for now.

Stay kind, beautiful humans. I hope to see you on the next.

#Chenford #Lucy Chen #Tim Bradford #Melissa O'Neil #Eric Winter #Lucy x Tim #Tim x Lucy #The Rookie #Meta

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rubberduckyrye · 1 year

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So I saw your flowerfell post and it's actually true, it was ruined by shippers and they disrespected the creators wishes by doxxing them sending death threats and tons more, there is year old video on YouTube that talks more about it. I think it's called how shippers destroyed an au. I could be miss remembering the name of the video. Sorry 😔

Oii. You're gonna go make me watch that damn video huh? Just to prove a point? Mkay, I'll bite.

And you're going to regret getting me to bite.

First of all, this is the video in question you are referring to:

youtube

And immediately, the creator of the video proves to be wrong. And fuck you for making me give this video a view, because it really doesn't deserve it for spreading misinformation.

The original fanfiction, "Overgrowth," was posted to Ao3 by the user SociopathicArchangel, which you can find an archive of here. In before you suggest that SociopathicArchangel was a reposter of the fic, I want to point out that looking for their username on Ao3 brings up a shocking and alarming amount of people crediting them for the Flowerfell Fanfic. This is a bit too much of a coincidence for SociopathicArchangel to be a reposter, especially since Archangel doesn't have an Ao3 anymore.

Also, this video reading the fanfic credits Sociopathicarchangel. So you know.

The content creator who made this video refers to Sociopathicarchangel as... I think it's spelled, Lividicus??? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm assuming Archangel changed their username. I'll be referring to them as Socipathicarchangel or Archangel for this ask though.

Disregarding that, if you are to look at the Archive.org link of Overgrowth--the original fanfiction was tagged as Frisk/Sans, or Frans. So yeah the argument falls apart when you actually look at fandom history. Flowerfell was a Frans AU. Whether or not the original creator intended it to be and their friend Archangel took it out of context is kind of moot point--the main explosion of the AU came from the fanfic made by Archangel, thus meaning the AU was a Frans AU. Or at least, gained traction from the fic which gave the assumption that it was a Frans AU.

This is important to note because the framework of this video is already severely flawed. So I'm not looking forward to seeing the rest of this hot garbage.

Oh I love how they didn't credit the actual composer of Secret Garden. They just showed a Fan PV on screen. Nice!!! They don't even say the composer's name for credit! Love (See: Hate) to see it.

About the kinning: I vaguely remember this drama when it started, and how the creator of Flowerfell was very Anti-kin. Which is. Uh. We see that as a shitty thing now, right? I know that having someone kin """Your""" character (Sans nor Frisk was never their characters to begin with) might seem a bit uncomfortable at first but like. Man, just leave fiction kins alone. They get so much shit for everything.

The evidence provided to prove that Kins were sending the creator hate for not making their Headcanons canon--I mean. Where's the evidence for that. Please show that. No? Okay...

I have absolutely no idea what the hell the OC stuff is about. People stole the og creator's OCs to use in their own stuff? Would love some context and evidence for that. But this video shows no evidence of these things what so ever. Ugh.

Anyway.

In the video, the content creator used this snippit from the fic to prove that Frisk was "Canonly a child in the AU" and "this was not a Frans AU"

Pointing out the actual context here--this snippit? It's talking about Toriel. Toriel, who had gone mad from seeing children before Frisk disobeying her and dying.

This is not saying Frisk is a child. This is saying Toriel has gone mad from seeing children before them die to the hands of other monsters.

Not really important, but this is just an example of why the content creator who made this video just. Is not to be trusted. They used this as "proof" Frisk was a child in the original Fic. Which is not the case.

And again. This video, as I'm going through it, is giving no evidence over anything that happened. Absolutely nothing. Go figure.

Also, listening to the clip that the content creator put in their video--I heard that. I heard that little flub. "An--asks we would get" I don't know, sounds like they were going to say antis there--as in, Anti-shippers maybe Hmmm. That is speculation, granted, but still. Worth noting it.

But also, now I have to go listen to the whole audio clip because it sure sounds like this wasn't a "poor Creator of Flowerfell was a victim in this uwu" but it sounds like Sane (I think is how you spell their name) became bitter, vindictive, and started fighting with people about their AU.

Like yeah, that's going to end well.

Anyway, onto the audio clip.

A lot of this is testimony so far. (And again, calling Frisk a child, that's not canon, I am Screaming) I don't think these people understand what fiction kinning a character means, because they are basically being Anti-kin right now. I don't know if there were actually any kins disrespecting the creators by saying they knew the characters better than they did, or if they were just saying "Hey!!! I am Flowerfell Frisk!!!!!" And these people took it the wrong way. I need references--aka, evidence that Kins actually were being disrespectful little shits, or shut up. Please for the love of god does anyone have any evidence. I am Begging.

Also the misconception that Sane owned Flowerfell because they created the AU is absurd. Please, for the love of god, if you make an AU of a canon franchise, unless you like, get super special privileges from the creators themselves, or are licensed to produce that content--you do not own that property. I am screaming into my hands. I am Tired.

I listened to the rest of the audio clip after that note because I knew it was going to be a very emotional audio clip. However, for as much as I feel for Psi (the person who recorded this audio) being stuck in the situation they were in... No, Shippers were never the main issue.

Here's what I think happened, after listening in and going over everything:

Flowerfell was created. Overgrowth was created. It got very popular as a Frans AU because it was tagged as a Frans AU on Ao3. Maybe some Fans got upset at the original creator because the Ao3 fic was tagged as the ship and the AU was not the ship, thus making them feel lied to, but from the sound of the audio clip it seems like the shippers and anti shippers were actually not that big of a problem. (Which is a surprise to me--antis are the ones who basically erased what actually happened from fandom history, like the content creator you referenced. They screamed "Anti" to me in that video at least) Even the thieves stealing and reposting art and the fanfic didn't seem to be the main issue here.

The biggest problem came about from Sane's paranoia of someone stealing their ideas and getting into arguments with fictionkins, and getting backlash from being frankly from what I can remember, very anti-fictionkin. And judging from the way Psi phrased things in this audio clip--yeah, I can easily imagine they were being extremely anti-fictionkin and that probably pissed a bunch of people off. And that, in turn, made them spiteful, which made Sane more bitter and spiteful because they didn't know how to deal with such a huge audience and a huge amount of backlash.

Either way, no, it was not the Frans Shippers that "ruined the AU." What ruined the AU was the fact that the main creator, Sane, didn't know how to handle such a large fanbase that was given to them overnight. They didn't know how to react or behave when fans were making them uncomfortable or being inappropriate. They were encouraged by peers to be spiteful and angry and only grew more bitter and paranoid because of it. As they became a worse and worse person, more fans started getting angry too, and wanting to take the AU for themselves since the creator was being a bad person for how they were treating their fans.

The AU wasn't ruined by the Frans shippers. It was ruined by Sane themselves--and by the people who were encouraging Sane's bitterness and paranoia. The only person who could ruin a creation is the creator themselves, after all. I'm pretty sure even Psi acknowledged that in their audio clip at the end--that it was all up to Sane.

So enough with the "Frans Shippers Ruined Flowerfell" Shit because that is not what happened from what little evidence I've seen/gathered. If you got actual proof that is the case, be my guest! But nothing concrete has been present to me thus far.

So yeah.

#Flowerfell #Frisk #Sans #Frans #This was such a random ass ask to get #Kind of an annoying one too #Like this was so random did you like #find me in the tags from months ago or something????#Oh well

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owlyflufff · 6 months

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not to drop a litle negativity here but I saw a haikyu ship poll to which personally, I don't mind if you like other main ships over bokuaka

if you like iwaoi more than bokuaka? that's valid! because it's your preference

kagehina over bokuaka? also valid! because again that's your opinion and I can respect it and so on for the other main ships

although in the very least, don't downplay/twist the canon material to prove that your ship is superior TvT. Furudate-sensei didn't canonically state that bokuaka were written to be foils to each other, both of them being each other's greatest inspiration in the OFFICIAL character sheet and have a well written dynamic for you to oversimplify what their dynamic amounted to at the end of the series.

for context, the haikyu ship poll that sort of spread caused tension cause they added extra captions like asanoya being a flop ship, iwaoi inventing love over bokuaka and the likes to which they also tweeted this:

personally I can respect op for liking iwaoi over bokuaka because that's their opinion + I love iwaoi chaotic childhood friends my beloved :'<< but for their argument to not give a proper reason/ water down bokuaka's dynamic is really saddening

so instead of cooking op since the quotes on the tweet are doing it (and I personally don't like starting/insulting anyone cause it just adds fuel to the flame than any actual progress) I'll just drop an actual list of evidence as to why this is wrong:

"They had like 5 moments"

bokuaka had more moments than solely 5 moments as op states and to make it fair I'll be removing bokuaka main moments this would include: iddle fleeting thought, we are the protagonists, give me your 120%.

It's important to note that most of bokuaka's main moments are found in Fukurodani's respective match. However if we remove these 3 pivotal moments than it still manages to disprove they had only 5 moments because bokuaka had a severe number of moments prior to this which would include the following:

a. Training camp arc: naturally bokuaka's introduction, bokuto doing a killer spike and immediately choosing to ask akaashi if he saw it, and of course the most well known moment of bokuto receiving an emo mode and alaashi not only knowing how to solve it but also that he knows bokuto's weaknesses, instills it in his mind

b. Post Training camp arc: albeit briefly, bokuto and akaashi were shown to which bokuto swears that he's been praise and akaashi brushes it off. despite being a brief moment, it shows alone that bokuaka hang out together in lunch or they are each other's company

c. Land vs Sky: it's been a while since I watched this so my apologies if my memory is rusty but I remember nekoma'a attempts of shutting bokuto down to which akaashi noticed + motivated bokuto

d. Nationals arc: this one naturally has the most but to simplify and at least show they had moments would be the little interactions they had throughout karasuno's matches, "THAT'S OUR TSUKI" "He's not ours Bokuto-san", akaashi being worried for bokuto and asking him to go back into the hotel due to the flu only for bokuto to bring it up again later on meaning he remembers akaashi's words, and naturally the entirety of the mujinazaka match that showed their backstories, established firther that bokuto cares about akaashi just as much and is attentive of him and the growth of their characters not solely as a pair but as individuals

With this, tell me then, did bokuaka only have just 5 moments? Even if you take away the moments bokuaka are most known for, there's still a SEVERE number of moments the two of them shared.

And dont get me started on timeskip because that's for the next point-

"bokuto never mentioned that man out of highschool?"

To put it simply, a good portion of the timeskip arc was the msby vs adlers match, this includes bokuto's appearance who mainly is in the story AT THE START OF THE MATCH. Meaning, there wasn't a window of opportunity for bokuto to talk about akaashi because Furudate-sensei had him and his main focus already at the match, there wasn't any slice of life tidbit as both teams went straight into the match after the bathroom confrontation. It would be very out of place if bokuto mentioned akaashi in the middle of a pretty intense match/it wouldnt have made sense for bokuto just randomly bring up akaashi while he's spiking during the match.

bokuto has in fact made a reference to akaashi during the match/post highschool. When hinata and atsumu unleash a killer spike against the Adlers, bokuto shouted "the first strike is always the most lethal!" (or something similar, I forgot the exact quote :'DD) to which is a nod and referencr to the EXACT same thing akaashi said during the inarizaki match. Not only this but mind you that bokuto shouted this WITH akaashi in two very DIFFERENT places. It implies that bokuto still remembers akaashi or references him and the things they tell each other all the way from highschool

the ultimate evidence is of course the post match because bokuto quite literally meets akaashi again when he gets interviewed. how does bokuto react? big smile on his face and invites akaashi to a meat date later on (I don't even mean to write this in a romantic context because the fact that bokuto wanted to hang out and spend time with akaashi in and of itself shows that akaashi is still relevant and important in his life)

There's so much more evidence to simply say that op's tweet is wrong but it would make this post severely long. Simply, it's one thing to choose, disrespect even, another person's ship but it's another to simply discard canon in the hopes of proving another ship is better.

Bokuaka are so much more than what they're iconic moments dictate them for, I mentioned it once but I'll say it again: the fact that they're not even childhood friends or in different years yet still grounded in a dynamic of trust and respect that carries to the years is impressive and just shows why they're a very beloved ship in the community in the first place.

#eli rambles #long one too sorry ;-;#this is why I don't engage in polls esp cause it's stirs drama #but them downplaying bokuaka's dynamic was not it :'D #bokuaka #sorry I can respect if bokuaka isn't your ship #but if you slander them or don't give actual concrete proof or ramble nonsense then m just ;-;

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acourtofthought · 8 months

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Can you provide me with the chapter and page number proving Elriel is a canon couple, or an interview? Oh wait, forgot Elriels have a special edition only they have access too and exclusive interviews only they watched.

The amount of comments from them calling them a canon couple is so cringe.

Az and Elain are not together.

Az and Gwyn are not together.

Elain and Lucien are not togeher.

It's really not hard to understand where these character stand in the book. Each one are single. Sure, Elain and Az are physically attracted to one another BUT Az never, not once confirmed he felt anything for Elain besides lust, if someone thinks lust is all it takes to make a relationship work, I highly suggest they seek therapy, and I speak from experience as someone who at a young age struggled to deeply connect with a man beyond sex. It doesn't last. Lust only gets someone so far. I was young, naive, I always was used to men looking at me solely for my looks, I used to think it was enough, it never was. Overtime, I realized how unhealthy it was. That is why I see what Elriel for what is, what SJMs intentions are. What she meant to convey in the bonus, because she's also done it in the past. If two people can't connect emotionally, it's doomed. His interactions with Elain and Gwyn are polar opposite and the one with Gwyn is a foundation to a strong friends to lovers trope.

And I don't care what Elriels say, I've read the books more than once; there is NO dialogue between them that forms a deep emotional connection. Talking about gardens?? . It's SMALL talk. Elain doesn't share her hopes, dreams, pain, anger, or anything about who she is with him and this is a book, if it's not on page it didn't happen. And Azriel confirms per canon she doesn't know him either, so he's never once opened up to her. He avoids her. So there is really nothing they know about one another, it's all surface level.

Sarah is very intentional with her writing, she gave us insight into Az revealing more about himself to Gwyn in one page than Elain in 4 books.

Not to mention, SJM continues to set up Elain and Lucien on a parallel journey. Their plots are intertwined. If they can't see it, they are choosing to be ignorant.

CONTAINS TOG SPOILERS -

Calling E/riel a "canon couple" really comes down to interpretation of what someone's definition of a relationship is.

So maybe they're not wrong based on their own interpretation while someone else who does not feel E/riel meet the criteria would be correct in theirs.

Some might feel canon equals any relationship a character has had with another while others consider canon "endgame" or at least a verbal commitment.

Were Celaena and Dorian a canon couple? They both had a crush on one another and kissed (similar to E/riel) but they never actually had a real relationship so I think if we did a poll there would be a divide.

However, canon couples don't really mean anything in an SJM book.

Feyre and Tamlin were probably a canon couple..... at one point.

Celaena and Chaol were a canon couple..... at one point.

Elain and Graysen were a canon couple...... at one point.

The only thing that matters is endgame couples and if all the above fell apart than canon doesn't mean a pairing is safe until their book is done.

And after the pov bonus chapter, even if E/riel were once a canon couple, I don't think they can be called that any longer considering Az left the manor house regretting nearly kissing Elain, she returned his necklace and they haven't spoken since Solstice.

If a couple has not communicated in months you cannot claim a relationship exists. There is no canon evidence that Elain and Az have spoken since his POV.

As it stands, the only canon thing at the end of SF (in regards to Elain) is that Lucien is still Elain's mate.

#elucien #anti e/riel #pro elucien

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sealofreconciliation · 11 months

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The mechanics of Indra and Ashura's “reincarnations” (or; “Naruto and Sasuke got nothing out of being reincarnates other than being psychologically manipulated into trying to kill each other”)

An oft-repeated claim in the Naruto fandom is that the revelation that Naruto and Sasuke are the “reincarnates” of Ashura and Indra, the Sage of Six Paths' children, invalidates their, especially Naruto's, struggles at the start of the series, be it because that means they were fated to save the world or because they had a massive power-boost from birth.

How accurate are these criticisms, however?

In this post, i will be going over all the major points used to criticize Naruto and Sasuke's statuses as reincarnates being of significant benefit to them and making counter-arguments (using only manga canon, since the Indra and Ashura anime filler has some really weird and contradictory shit in it), starting with:

Their statuses as reincarnates means they were fated to save the world/be powerful shinobi

This is honestly the weakest point of the bunch, mostly because there's next to no supporting evidence for it in the series and what little we do get on the specifics all but debunks it; here's the only things Indra and Ashura's reincarnates are ever stated or implied to be destined to do:

As you can see, the only thing the series ever implies the Indra and Ashura reincaranates are destined to do are to kill each other and nothing else;there's nothing on them being fated to save the world or to become powerful shinobi themselves.

As a matter of fact, Hagoromo in the first and third pictures explicitly confirms there were multiple reincarnates prior to Hashirama and Madara, none of which ever became anyone of any relevance or power to the shinobi world, further confirming that being a reincarnate does nothing to guarantee you power in the Narutoverse. The argument that Naruto and Sasuke had any sort of beneficial destiny is a gigantic strawman of that plot point, and one that's easily debunked the second you try looking for evidence to support it.

Naruto and Sasuke were born with massive power boosts and special abilities due to being reincarnates

This is the stronger of the two main criticisms, if only because, unlike with the last point, there's nothing in the series to definitively disprove the notions that Ashura and Indra are reincarnated when their hosts are born or that the hosts receive a power boost from them.

There is, however, evidence against those notions, evidence strong and plentiful enough for me to make cases against those points.

Starting with the idea that Indra and Ashura “reincarnate” into their hosts at birth, Naruto in the third picture describes the experience like a ghost haunting, and both him and Hagoromo claim they can see/sense someone else (Ashura)'s presence and chakra inside of him, something that wouldn't make sense if it was a true reincarnation and Ashura had any significant amount of his chakra inside of Naruto from birth:

In addition to that, and this is the strongest piece of evidence against the idea that I&A reincarnate at birth, the manga goes out of it's way to all but confirm that the “change” Naruto had sensed in Sasuke's chakra during the Five Kage Summit was Indra choosing him as his host during those events:

While there's not enough evidence to prove this claim beyond a shadow of a doubt, i do think it makes for a very strong argument that I&A work more like transmigrants than reincarnates, choosing hosts they feel align with their ideals and have enough power to see it through; the idea that N&S were born as reincarnates of I&A is, while not as objectively wrong as the destiny argument, still a very shaky point to stand on that has plenty of holes in it.

Naruto and Sasuke gained powers when they became the transmigrants

This is both the strongest and weakest argument so far; it's the strongest because there's very little in the series that can be used to disprove that claim, and the weakest because there's not only very little in the series that can be used to prove that claim, but also no way to quantify how much power N&S got from being I&A transmigrants, let alone to prove that it was in any way significant.

It's completely unknown when Ashura chose Naruto as his host, so that's a dead end given how often Naruto gets stronger through the series; we do know Indra chose Sasuke during the events of the Five Kage Summit, being the reason his chakra got colder and Sasuke himself started going off the deep end, but even then Sasuke's best feat prior to the FKS was beating Deidara, after which he has very few good feats pre-FKS and multiple different power-ups, including getting his Mangekyo and multiple hatred amps every Uchiha gets, meaning there's no way to prove whether Indra was the reason he grew so quickly following Itachi's death or not.

The notion that Naruto and Sasuke got significant power ups from Indra and Ashura is honestly just an unfalsifiable claim, especially when there are multiple other ways they could have gotten stronger, and as such a very weak argument.

In conclusion:

N&S being transmigrants of I&A had fuck all to do with any sort of beneficial destiny or fate, as stated, shown and implied by the manga itself

N&S very likely only became transmigrants after 17 years of working hard to become as powerful as they did, to the point of impressing I&A enough that they chose them as the people they wanted fulfilling their ideas of how the world should be, as heavily implied by the description of the reincarnation process and Naruto sensing something different in Sasuke after the earliest point he started showing signs of being possessed by Indra

The burden of proof is entirely on the person making the claim that N&S got a power boost from becoming transmigrants, let alone that it was in any way significant, which can't be done because it's a borderline-unprovable claim

Tl;dr the reincarnation plot twist is based and good writing-pilled

#pro naruto #naruto #sasuke #naruto uzumaki #sasuke uchiha #indra otsutsuki #ashura otsutsuki #hagoromo otsutsuki #naruto analysis

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sometipsygnostalgic · 1 year

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i can make up a lot of reasons for why i just sort of disappeared from Adventure Time fandom a second time after an intense nine months being part of the Distant Lands community

i am pretty sure that the main reason is simply that following the airing of the last special there was very little left in terms of healthy fandom engagement, the main characters being... gone, and the only news left being for fionna and cake in an ambiguous amount of time in the future. it’s good to move onto greener pastures at that stage. not discarding AT completely but moving away from core fandom.

the Distant Lands server i was in, well, it was a joy! but it was a very young membership so i couldn’t really engage freely like i can now with older fans. Also there were certain adult users who had migrated there from the older AT discords who i couldnt fucking stand. i want to stay away from some people and they are inescapable. sometimes i pop in and say hi again but those guys are always the ones talking most.

however the most annoying thing of all time which was the biggest stick for me, it was definitely waking up on Reddit and Twitter every morning to more discourse about Princess Bubblegum, my favourite character.

What was the nature of this discourse?

Twitter: “Princess Bubblegum was a bitch actually” - 9000 likes 800 QRTs everyone on Twitter talking about it all day and how wrong or right it is. How annoying.

Meanwhile on reddit:

“Princess Bubblegum is a lesbian” - okay nice, headcanon time--

“PRINCESS BUBBLEGUM CAN’T BE A LESBIAN BECAUSE SHE DATED FINN” - What??? Why???

There would be HUNDREDS of comments, EVERY other day with the same reposted meme, about whether PB is a lesbian or not.

Sometimes I would get involved with my own “evidence” - I argued hard that it’s a valid interpretation and probably canon - but it’s so alienating to me to have to pick apart my favourite character’s sexuality, as if sexuality is just something I can analyse like anything else. I’m a bisexual girl myself so it was particularly odd but also so creepy to see everyone else’s takes of “PB can’t be gay because Weird Thing That Proves Shes Definitely Into Finn”.

Never again. We start arguing sexuality discourse again I’m going to pull out the Terezigun.

Actually, Terezi and Vriska were the first characters I saw this sort of bullshit with. People arguing whether they were gay or bi, kind of treating it as if them being bi would be the end of the world. I thought it was a pretty valid interpretation of them being gay and had some interesting story to tell if it was true, but I more sort of interpreted them as being bisexual victims of compulsory heterosexuality rather than being closeted gay, whereas some of my friends at the time were more than a little aggro to bisexual fans...

#adventure time #homestuck #bubbline #vrisrezi

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cosmicjoke · 4 months

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Eruri shippers in my eyes are the same Satosugu. They see a friendship between two men and twist that to fit their fetishy narrative. I’ve seen it happen in so many anime fandoms (real life as well because when I was in my teens I was obsessed with one direction and people even did that with Harry/Louis which is even more disgusting as they are real people.)

There is nothing in the text/panels/etc that supports Eruri or Satosugu(or any of these ships they so desperately want to prove as canon). I don’t ship Eruri but I do ship Satosugu as a cute idea. I even ship characters who don’t even talk just because I want to. However, I am able to seperate canon from fanon and realize that satosugu and any other ship I like is not canon either. It generally upsets me when people try to use false evidence to support ships.. It gives a bad name to shippers and the lgbtq community (i am in both) as a whole when these people call others delusional, homophobic etc. They make us seem crazy and I hate that. It’s supposed to be for fun? Recognizing canon is not homophobic. Some people like to enjoy stories as they are presented and there is nothing wrong with that. Pushing ships as canon defeats the purpose in my eyes and deludes others from liking these characters because they twist the personality of them to fit their ship. It’s gross and I’m so upset with people for attacking you and other blogs I follow for this.

Yeah, it's absolutely absurd at this point. But thank you for your support, truly.

It shouldn't be a controversial statement to say eruri, or any other ship involving Levi, isn't canon, because that's just a basic fact. It's a FACT. The same way one can say Eren is the main character of AoT. It's just a fact. But these people just can't accept it, and try to come up with all manner of outrageous, far-fetched, delusional reasons which require absurd amounts of speculation and assumption and conspiracy theorizing to justify, and then they get mad at you when you won't give those baseless theories any real consideration. Why should I or anyone give any real consideration to a substanceless theory which stands on nothing but wild speculation? How is that a legitimate way to engage in any piece of media? If you start doing that, you could read countless hidden meanings and agendas and messages into everything, and by the end of it, you'll have so warped the original content, it won't even resemble what's actually there on the page or screen. That's essentially what these people are doing with their wacked-out, obsessive need to prove eruri is "canon".

#tw discourse

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wildissylupus · 9 months

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So, I, out of simple curiosity, googled if omnics and humans could date. Seeing as omnics have, in a sense, a soul and sentience on the same level of humans, could they have a consenting romantic relationship with a human being.

And, while a decent few people were saying, "Yeah, they essentially have a soul, free will, sentience, and individual personalities. In a sense, they have enough human attributes to date a human." There were also comments that were very much against it.

One person legit said, and I quote, "Those filthy tincans were built to serve humans and nothing more. Whatever feelings those rustbuckets have are entirely artificial and therefore meaningless." And then continued on to say in another comment "If a human decided to love an Omnic thats fine since its essentially a command from the human towards the Omnic. However, Omnics must not have equal rights to humans. Omnics are property, and the owner may do whatever they want with their property."

I know this is set in a video game, and it's not real... but I felt like I was legit reading a hate comment toward a group of people. Like, holy shit, this felt like something some in-game omnic hater would say.

And I'm sorry, but isn't this the type of thought process that partially lead to the world being in SHAMBLES???

I just... did NOT expect to see someone being discriminatory towards omnics OUTSIDE of the overwatch universe, and that just threw me for a loop.

YIKES-

Honestly, I don't know weather to laugh at the stupidity or cry at the ignorance.

One things for sure, that's a red flag right there, cause what the actual fuck is that? Are they playing the same game? Do they not pay attention to the story?

And your right, the only place in the Overwatch universe that is considered a Utopia is Numbani, a place where Omnics and Humans live in peace! A big part of Overwatch's story, along with individual characters stories, is confronting the negative views and actions humans take towards Omnics.

Also saying that Omnics have no free will actively the omnic characters we know and play as, you're telling me Zenyatta is just programming? Mondatta? Ramattra? BOB?

I'm guessing the posts you found about these where old cause I don't think with all the recent lore that people would think like this, at the very least they'd keep those thoughts to themselves because there is a incredible amount of evidence proving them wrong.

But to answer you're question, humans and Omnics can date. They are just as capable of emotion as humans, due to them being sentient beings. It's even been astablished in canon that it happens;

Also I want to point out that this is from one of the first cinematics Overwatch released, so even if those posts were old, there was already evidence proving them wrong.

#overwatch #overwatch 2 #overwatch lore #analysis #omnics #human/omnic #wtf is this

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lightdancer1 · 10 months

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Another set of things the Death captured by Burgess AUs explore:

There is more than a little evidence from the canon that Dream of the Endless was already starting to change before the fishbowl, and ultimately in my view he didn't have to die to change, the fishbowl did enough damage to him mentally that it made that fate in the end the outcome fixed in time.

That it is not, in fact, a place of healing is also noted by the differences in what happens when it's another Endless entrapped. And here, at least, Death's very similarities to humanity also up and bite her more viciously than with her less human siblings shielded by all the rules.

She's human enough that solitary confinement, which is what the fishbowl ultimately is, does a significant amount of damage from that alone, combined with all the rest of it. The other Endless are inhuman enough that time might pass in the same ways but they can still manage things somewhat better because their psychology differs from humans in fundamental ways, Dream included.

Death, OTOH, has that unlovely in this case aspect of being human enough that in cases like this she experiences it much more like what a human would than any other entity in a comparable situation, which creates compounding issues after the fact because she's human enough for humanlike trauma responses but inhuman enough that her means of dealing with them end up reflecting that and compounding the difficulties here for her.

That said, outside the human AUs I prefer that Burgess actually be loyal to Ethel Cripps, and consciously monogamous as a way to prove himself 'better' than his rival Aleister Crowley, who very much had a much more hedonistic aspect. In the human AUs, Burgess has zero reason to go for the wrong person in the family, still moreso if Death looks like Kirby and much less like Dream and I basically have it be a case of him specifically targeting her with what evolves into a twisted one-sided obsession which adds to all the unlovely nightmare fuel of a stalker that Burgess becomes, in a human AU, Sung Myung Moon/Brother Blood style cult leader.

The Order of Ancient Mysteries works just as well in a human AU though I do give it something of the willful con aspect of Brother Blood (and some maybe magic maybe mundane outside the one AU where the Endless family have powers in line with their canon selves but are otherwise metahumans....seemingly, at least).

It also very deliberately puts Burgess in line with what his real life counterparts with that kind of wealth do, and that is ultimately intended to reflect that in human AUs people do deal with human problems, of which a drug lord turned cult leader who develops a twisted stalker-ish obsession with a random person who never asked for it is an extreme but not unlike things that have actually happened.....and if she's from the Endless family that's filthy stinking rich then that is 100% connected.

It also allows me to play with the Dream and Roderick Burgess dynamics when he is not, in fact, the one caught and there's a whole sense of leaden destiny and irony in their interactions reflecting what very easily could have been.

#death of the endless #dream of the endless #roderick burgess #death of the endless captured by Roderick Burgess au

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mysticdragon3md3 · 6 months

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🦩…

youtube

Fire Emblem Three Houses: Is Edelgard Likable? by Adam With FED

I'm glad to see that even 4 years ago, lots of people did recognize El as a villain. By this point in 2023, I've heard from too many of her stans, and I was getting the impression that people were refusing to think critically about the given narrative, to even consider her as a villain.

Personally, I like to compare my rejection of El, against my love for Lelouch from Code Geass. I don't think it's a simping issue for me, because 1) I'm aroace, and 2) I've never thought of Lelouch as "husbando" material. I liked Lelouch because I respected his resolve, intelligence, and compassion, and I loved indulging into the villainous fantasy of it all. His maniacal laughter, his unnecessary slaughters, and just him doubling down into his own darkness, until the very end, when he realized he was wrong, and set up the world to take power away from him and anyone else like him in the future. I know there are lots of El stans who would say the same thing about El---though, I've never really heard them say they enjoy reveling in the fantasy of being a callous villain. I've only heard them preach that El "did nothing wrong" and was nothing less than a hero, driven by compassion, etc. So I'm not sure my reasons for liking Lelouch can be properly compared to El stans' reasons for liking her. But I do hear them compared a lot. I've certainly heard from more meticulous analyzers of FE3H, that FE3H's writing went out of its way to simp for El, even if they had to write other characters out of character or reasonable sense for their established motivations. And they've convinced me, backed up by screengrabbed evidence, combined with the logic of characters' motivations, rejecting the nonsensical "bad writing" that contradicts established characterizations. (Intelligent Systems proved that Atlus wasn't the only one doing canonical bad writing.) But even before the Edelcrits' input, the thing that made me lose the chance to sympathize with El, unlike Lelouch, was the world setting. Aside from the fact that I really don't think the war was necessary and I dislike her for starting a war, despite Fire Emblem being a "war story" series, I don't think FE3H's act one effectively set me up to sympathize with El. White Clouds was "happy, sunshine, school days", occasionally sprinkled with Agarthan intrigue, so of course I'm going to be sore at whomever started the war. And the writing didn't even make the war feel necessary TO ME. If the writing had made the war feel necessary, in an effective way, then maybe I would have sided with El. But with White Clouds as ineffective as it was in that aspect FOR ME specifically, I just can't side with El. In contrast, Code Geass starts with a melodramatic close-up of a tiny child, declaring war and destruction against an entire empire, then when act 1 proper gets going, we're introduced to a bleak world with bleak adults, breaking the rules to crush anyone and everything for fun, and the downtrodden can do nothing but suffer. That's very different from White Clouds! Code Geass made Lelouch's extreme actions feel like the only option, and the tone made it all feel completely warranted, justified, and satisfying. But FE3H White Clouds didn't justify El's war to me.

Another interesting angle I see is religion. Sometimes I see the people so ready to follow El unquestioningly and jump to feel her war is justified, and some of them I KNOW have experienced religious trauma. As someone who went to Catholic and Christian schools all my life, came out disillusioned with religion, and was horrified to remember all the times they had brainwashed me to go against my personal values and even judge others, I understand wanting to glorify the story route that's shouting "down with the Church of Seiros!". There's a certain amount of vendetta craved against organized religion in general. And El is saying the Church of Seiros is evil and the ultimate villain to defeat at the end of the war. It sounds very gratifying and cathartic. But I saw Rhea in White Clouds. I saw first hand, that she was a nice person. Maybe a little creepy, but when Garreg Mach was attacked, she equated any loss of life there to "another Red Canyon Tragedy". She equated human life to be as valuable as Nabatean. Meanwhile, the obvious villains, the Agarthans, who El teamed up with, regarded all humans and above-ground creatures as "lower beasts". And the Agarthans acted with no sympathy or regret towards the lives they took or the suffering they caused. We even have several characters who barely survived their human experiments. It's just hard to take Rhea as the villain, when contrasted versus the Agarthans and when I've seen her be nice with my own eyes. On top of that, Cyril is constantly worshiping her, so she must have been treating him well. And Cyril is too blunt to be anything else than sincere, so everything he describes is effectively truthful. And then we get into the Ashen Wolves DLC to discover that even though Byleth's mom Sitri was a "failed experiment" who couldn't achieve Sothis's resurrection as Rhea wanted, Rhea still treated her well, almost like family. And when we hear the truth of Byleth's birth during Silver Snow, we find that Sitri was the one who asked Rhea to trade her life for Byleth's, and Rhea was just respecting her wishes. And then by the time of FE Engage, I hear from more veteran FE fans that the series usually uses "green dragons as good and purple dragons as bad", and Rhea is a green-haired dragon lady. Despite my beef with organized religion in real life, I just can't see Rhea as the villain in FE3H. Sure, she loses rationality when it comes to Sothis and I don't think she should be allowed a position of power, especially militarily, except as a purely spiritual leader in worshiping Sothis… But I just don't buy her as the bad guy. Either FE3H's writing was very bad in trying to portray her as a villain, or it was very good at hinting we should question this narrative of "Rhea bad" that El was peddling.

Also, this reminds me of my feelings on Akechi Goro, another very popular villain character which I despise. I won't even play P5R because I heard it tries to redeem him and make him into the core trio with Joker and Violet. (No. The Core trio is either Joker, Skull, and Panther, or Joker, Skull, and Morgana!) I think the value in Akechi is how he acts as a villain and a foil to all the ideals the Phantom Thieves stand for and all the story themes advocated by the narrative. I HATE Akechi as a person, but I think he is a great villain. And I'm glad he was there in Persona 5 to demonstrate the antithesis of all the themes and act as a cautionary tale for the Phantom Thieves. I loved his function in the story, but as a character, he can jump off a cliff and die. lol

It's nice to hear other people talk about how divisive El is, because sometimes you avoid the fandom's toxic vibe so much, you begin to wonder if you're crazy for having any opinion. But yes, she was divisive. Which is why I blame her for why there are still no FE3H Nendoroids or Figma. Good Smile Company probably didn't know how divisive she was, so when she was their first Figma, I'm sure they were confused when she didn't sell. I don't have any sales numbers, but generally, if one character from a series sells well as a figure, GoodSmile will make more for that series. And yet, no FE3H Nendoroids and no more FE3H Figma, their primary figure lines. FE3H eventually got some Pop Up Parades, but those are cheap for GSC to make. Nendoroids and Figma are an investment for their production schedules. Characters/series MUST sell well, to be made into Nendoroids or Figma. But El was their first test into FE3H figures. Either 3/4 of the fanbase dislike her as the villain (if we assume the fandom is split evenly among each route), or people who like her don't like her enough to spend $60-$90 on her Figma. I bet if the first FE3H articulated figure was a Byleth or a post-timeskip Dimitri Nendoroid, they would have sold well, and we'd have a whole set of FE3H Nendoroids by now. Curses…Intelligent Systems probably told GoodSmile, she was the safe bet. After all, even though half their writing is hinting she's wrong, a bunch of their writing still simps for her. x_x;

It's interesting that this video suggests the Thought Experiment of giving El's role to Claude, and vice-versa, because 3 years after FE3H, 3Hopes kind of did that. I often call the Golden Wildfire route, 3Hopes' version of Crimson Flower. I will have to preface my reactions to Golden Wildfire, with the caveat that I pulled multiple all-nighters to watch its cutscenes, out of order, so my brain didn't exactly process the story correctly. But I do remember initially enjoying the angst of Claude so frequently expressing all his hesitations in begrudgingly carrying out their attacks, then too quickly rationalizing them. He didn't talk that much about his worries and vulnerabilities in FE3H! It was refreshing. But my biggest hint that there was something wrong, was in Golden Wildfire's ending. Despite my foggy sleep deprivation, I clearly recognized that the ending of Golden Wildfire felt wrong. It felt like the opposite of all the things I loved about Claude in FE3H. Not only that, but it was exactly the ending of Crimson Flower. From then on, I began to wonder what other parts of Golden Wildfire mirrored Crimson Flower, and there seemed to be more, the more I looked. Later, because I circulate in Dimiclaude circles, I heard a lot of criticisms about Claude invading and attacking Faerghus. I remember thinking that the writers COULD HAVE done better to justify Claude's belief that he had no choice but to invade, BUT THEY DIDN'T. And that was disappointing. They could have emphasized how Faerghus was too locked into their alliance with the Church, so they wouldn't be able to split that alliance without the appearance of being forced to by another military's force. But not only did Golden Wildfire not do anything like that, but they also made it a point of the story's plot that during Leicester's invasion of Faerghus, Leicester killed some key, named characters from Faerghus. That is something you avoid doing, if you are trying to convince someone to be your ally! And the worst part was, that in the very same game, 3Hopes had another route which demonstrated how Claude could slip into Faerghus and ask for an alliance, without expending Leicester's military and Faerghus commanders' lives. The more I looked at Golden Wildfire, it was as messed up as Crimson Flower. As for my impressions of 3Hopes Claude taking on FE3H El's role: I remember distinctly, loving Claude's 3Hopes outfit during the pre-release trailer reveals, but then after the game came out...to this day, I have a hard time looking at or enjoying that costume/character design, simply because it reminds me too much of a Claude that had dropped half of what I loved about him. And aside from that, Golden Wildfire had turned into a Claude-whump-fest, that is also painful for me to think about. And not in the beautifully angsty way that I fondly remember Code Geass and Lelouch. So to answer this video's thought experiment, changing El's gender, specifically swapping her role onto Claude, would not help me like her more. The only thing left of 3Hopes Claude that I enjoyed was his warm, casual demeanor. And unless El completely changes her personality too, from her characteristic "trying so hard to look dignified" to "warm, friendly, playful, and mischievous", then just swapping her gender wouldn't help me like her. I think this proves her gender and simping/waifu material were not pivotal points that would make me like her. Because Claude is definitely "husbando" material, and even that didn't help me not feel sick about him playing out El's Crimson Flower role.

#ramblings #rambling #Youtube #venting #personal fandom records #processing thoughts #please ignore my idiocy #personal preferences #figure collecting #samenamebutnotmysis #contrasts #L2C2geasR2 #just some cathartic ranting over inconsequential stuff for my mental health #and you're not going to change my mind so just ignore my idiocy #disliked characters #elredeaglescrit #fe3hfuukasetsugetsu #get out of here akechi

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barelycontainedrage · 1 year

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so. we all know that aoyama is the traitor now. let me defend why i believed the kaminari traitor theory and still like it for fanfic ideas.

sooooo if you've seen the infamous kaminari traitor theory video from 2021, linked here, then you know that theres a lot of canon backing for the theory. there are many different theories, from kaminari being in a sort of Twice situation, to him faking his weakness. ive always found the theory pretty cool.

i wont get into the specifics, but you can watch the video if you want. obviously we now know that it isnt kaminari, despite the overwhelming evidence. i feel it would've been a better choice to make him the traitor storyline wise, just to tug on the heartstrings of the audience more. nobody really cared when aoyama was the traitor, plus he wasnt even inherently evil, he was just forced into the role.

a lot of people are saying that there could be a second traitor. while i do love this theory, and think it would be a fun twist, i find it unlikely for multiple reasons. logically, if aoyama was one of two or more traitors, then when revealed i think he would give up the other one immediately, since he is no longer hiding his knowledge. i also know that sadly, my hero academia is almost over. horikoshi had said it will end very soon, with only a few chapters left. very sad, but all good things must come to an end.

time to defend myself!! i see a lot of memes of people saying they're so sorry for suspecting kaminari, or they're laughing at the theorists, and i respect that. i really liked the traitor kaminari theory for plot reasons, and because it made sense. i also enjoy a decent amount of the traitor kaminari fanfiction on ao3, so its a deep-rooted love.

i honestly thought of it as more of an au at all times, so as not to get my hopes up, which i see payed off in the end.

time to bring up some problems i have. i relate to denki on a spiritual level. i kin him or whatever. i am always told i am lazy and stupid when i really am just trying my best. kaminari has signs of adhd, which i have.

i love the trope, where the "weak" or "childish" or "dumb" character proves everyone wrong. its probably not healthy, but it always makes me feel better, and its definitely some buried inferiority complex, but were not going get into that.

TLDR; im going to continue to enjoy traitor kaminari content :) (that isnt horrible or disgusting)

#thats long #damn #mb yall #sorry lmaoo

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worstloki · 4 years

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90% of marvel fics after introducing loki:

#let me clarify that this isnt a bad thing #the fact that fan written works are taking the time to address serious issues that canon has not despite their long term impacts is good #bad for canon though #the mcu is happy enough to remind the audience of the fact that loki is adopted in every single movie but its never addressed again #loki commits suicide and its never brought up again after he incorrectly recalls the event while being influenced by the mind stone #loki spends undetermined amounts of time in space and being tortured and while its implied in avengers 1 no one points it out ever #loki gets sentenced and doesnt speak in his defence indicating he believes himself at fault #he was also hoping for execution....?#loki was literally stabbed through the chest and lived to tell the tale but not even once was it questioned by anyone #marvel is very quick to pile on the trauma and then promptly pretend it has been handled in a few words or off-screen somewhere #while that may be the case... its never implied or mentioned #oh and I forgot to mention that loki found out he was a part of a race which he's been raised to believe have lives with no worth #so there's the entire internalised racism and identity crisis debacle too #the fact that he had ZERO% of any sort of support network - not even FRIENDS - and had to draw his own conclusions was bad #but for some reason in a full thousand years of existence no one found anything wrong with loki not having friends or someone to turn to???#and yet Asgardian culture is never truly addressed as a topic in the mcu either #as the audience we're forced to choose between Loki having been bad or everyone else on Asgard being bad #and we're given sufficient evidence of the latter while all Loki's actions can be completely absolved as a result of past trauma #we see Loki actively acting bad but there is sufficient reasoning to prove his intentions were good and judgement compromised even in Thor 1 #NO ONE ELSE is given reason to act as nefariously as they do and so we HAVE to conclude that what we see of Asgard is in the wrong #canon wouldnt be able to handle portraying this correctly without considerate effort so fandom doing it is a win in my books

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beepboop358 · 3 years

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Elmax Thoughts

(reposting b/c I found some more images and for some reason I can’t edit the original)

I am convinced neither Max or Eleven are straight. These are my own opinions since none of it is confirmed.

Max = bi

I think Max is bi because even though she and Lucas are always 'on again off again', she seems genuinely interested in him, she's just not willing to deal with his shit LMAO. But there is nooo wayyyy Max is straight. Max just gives off majorly queer vibes. Max is the only other character in the show associated with rainbow imagery/rainbow details, besides Mike and Will, (that isn’t related to the rainbow room in the lab). Not even Robin is associated with rainbows in s3 (probably because of her scoops troop uniform, and that it was decided during filming Robin was a lesbian). Max is seen wearing clothing with rainbow patterns several times in the show. Besides occasionally Will, none of the other characters really have rainbow patterns in their clothes.

Max also has rainbow bed sheets. When El and Max have a sleepover, they both sleep in Max’s bed with the rainbow sheets, which can be seen the next morning when the phone rings. Both El and Max are pictured in shots with the rainbow pattern.

So...Max has rainbow bed sheets. Interesting. Who else in the show also has a rainbow pattern in their bed sheets? MIKE.

Mike is one of the gayest characters of all time

Max = not straight, confirmed.

El = pan

Eleven definitely gives me major pan vibes. It just doesn't make sense to me for El to be straight. She was raised in a lab, away from society, so she has virtually no concept of what society deems right or wrong or acceptable around sexuality. She won't understand labels, or why people would be teased and tormented for liking someone of the same sex/gender as them. She has no reason to think it's weird, or wrong, or to stigmatize it, because she has never been exposed to any of the prejudices of society surrounding lgbtq+ people. El would have no idea why anyone identifying as lgbtq+ would be mistreated, it would not make sense to her. And since she never learned any of societies biases or stigmas, she can easily see through the bullshit of homophobia and debunk it. She has had no opportunities to internalize homophobia since she has never experienced any because she has never been in society before, which will make her extremely open and excepting of her own sexuality and of others. El also has no reason to have a specific gender preference, she can just like whoever she likes!

Eleven probably has a limited knowledge of what sexuality and preference even is. It doesn't make sense for her to have it all figured out at this stage in her life. When Max and El go shopping in s3, Eleven asks Max, "How do I know what I like?" Since we know the stranger things writers and the duffer brothers LOVE to throw in little clues and hidden messages EVERYWHERE in the show, this line obviously references more than just picking out clothes -and it's completely valid. She is still a kid after all, and she's barely had a fraction of the social development and real life experience other kids her age have. When Will is homphobically bullied in his and El's new school in s4, she will not understand what the words they use mean, or why they are even teasing him about it. She won't understand why being gay is considered "bad". While I don't think either Max or El are straight, I don't think a romantic Elmax relationship will ever be canon in the show unfortunately (although I would love if it would!). Unlike Byler, Elmax does not have the same amount of overwhelming evidence that proves they romantically like each other. I do think El and Max love each other and deeply care for each other, but as best friends. Unless we get an overwhelming amount of romantic development between the two in the upcoming seasons, I doubt they will ever be romantically canon. Max helped humanize Eleven, and showed her how to become herself. Eleven and Max were each others first real "bff". Neither of them had a true best friend in the show before they become friends, they just have their boyfriends. I think Max and El bonding was exactly what each of their characters needed: a real best friend that allows them to grow and develop as a person, but also be there to support each other. I'm sure they will miss each other greatly now that they live far away from each other, and are kind of alone again. They clearly mean a lot to each other. Max even gave El her green scrunchie at the end of s3 before El moves away, and Eleven wears it in the final scenes.

<3 Love them both. This is such a cute moment

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enderspawn · 3 years

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"you cant take a characters words at face value, especially when they are in emotionally compromising situations!" yes, i agree! but that doesnt mean they are inherently always lying either. you have to then look at their other words and, more importantly, their other actions so find the truth.

for example: when s1 wilbur says that he doesn't care about lmanberg or the people inside it and wants to blow it up, we know he's lying. he later shows that he, actually, doesnt want anyone hurt ("if you're going to kill anyone, kill me") and still cares a lot about the people stuck inside (like niki, who he left frequent gifts for when he could and was a massive contribution to slowing his spiral). likewise, when speaking with phil in the button room (where i feel he has little reason to lie anymore) he even admits hes come here "7 or 8 times before" and never went through with it. he's cautious and conflicted, which conflicts with his line at face value.

but when dream says he "doesn't care about anyone or anything" after spirit dies except for tommy's discs (or more simply, tommy and being able to control tommy such as via the discs), what do we see after? him dethroning his friend for not being neutral enough (and yes, partially bc george was attacked a lot, i fully admit!) and thus causing more strain on their friendships, him putting himself in positions (such as exile and as tubbo's "friend") to get closer to the discs and to tommy, him building a literal shrine to the discs and planning to kill tubbo and imprison tommy for an unspecified amount of time (even if the prison wasn't originally built for tommy, it doesn't change the fact that he was indeed planning it). the fact that it took tommy threatening his death to get dream to come back down to the hall of attachments. even in the prison he still seems so focused on tommy (him asking if quackity thought him killing tommy was cool comes to mind). these actions simply DONT conflict with his line, if anything they help confirm it as true.

im not saying you can't still argue that he secretly cares about things other than tommy. if you like that interpretation, go wild! im sure theres bits you can point to and if you have fun w it im not here to be the fun police and tell you to stop

but, imo, theres 100x more overwhelming evidence that he doesnt. the majority of his actions simply do not line up with the idea that he still truly cares about anything other than tommy and w the fact we never get to see his pov and only him in the eyes of others theres no other definitive proof to back that claim up. to try and ignore his attachment to tommy and his lack of attachments to literally anything else does a massive disservice to his character, frankly, because the canon c!dream we have is massively intriguing to try and understand.

and dont get me wrong, i fully understand why people get wrapped up in trying to fully unravel and understand c!dream. you see how fucked up he is now and you wonder what happened along the way. why is he like this? so you start thinking: maybe he's lying to himself, maybe he's incredibly mentally ill as well and spiralling out of even his own control.

but the issue is this: we have no fucking clue. we might never tbh. what that is above is speculation, and while that may help to get you to sympathize or 'better understand' him its not based in canon, which is why we get these massive debates and c!dream "apologists" fighting over why he does the things he does. WE DON'T KNOW AT ALL WHY HE DOES THOSE THINGS, ONLY WHAT HE DOES.

we don't have his pov to fill in the gaps. you can state anything about his mental state and if hes "actually lying" or not and you can't prove it 100% right OR wrong. he HAS nuance and depth already, but we never got to see it develop and filling in the gaps with your own ideas can lead to this... misunderstanding of how c!dream really thinks or works.

i want you to understand, i'm not saying this to try and attack anyone either, please don't misconstrue me, i'm saying this to try and understand myself why c!dream is such a conflicting character for many ppl to discuss and i think this is kind of it: how much of your analysis is based on the direct actions dream takes that we get to see directly and how much of your analysis is based on trying to figure out/assume the dream pov we dont have

#this started as a salty rant on a topic i saw on another post but didnt wanna debate w op on #but kinda ended on why i think c!dream analysis is Like That and so conflicted in the fandom #oh well #dream smp #mcyt #dream #c!dream critical #kind of a do you place yourself in the characters shoes or in the eyes of another character issue yknow #(jeb bush voice) please clap #og post #long post #the moment you connect the mental illness you gave him w tyour own is when issues arise and you start demonizing c!wilbur n shit LMAO /j /t #/toxic WHY DIDNT THAT TAG FINISH HOMOPHOBIC

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bookofmirth · 3 years

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The english side of me REALLY jumped out with this one lol

Possessiveness, jealousy, and overprotectiveness are staples of the romance genre, especially when it comes to paranormal romances, so much so that it’s expected for people to overlook the problematic aspects of possessiveness, jealousy, and overprotectiveness because these concepts in the romance genre are meant to be viewed not only as hot and sexy, but indicators of love and showing that the person cares. Despite their tendency to fall in the yellow flag zone, these concepts are meant to further the romance itself. And when you begin to question these concepts as they appear in different romances, there’s almost always pushback with people saying the books are “just fiction”. But what happens when there’s evidence that shows why these three concepts aren’t always healthy or hot/sexy in a romantic pairing? What happens when the narrative is using these concepts to show how they can be detrimental to a character and those romantically associated with that character?

Possessiveness/Overprotectiveness

In romances, it’s always in the man’s nature to be possessive and overprotective. These two concepts are usually used to show that a character is protective of their partner and we see that happen with almost all of SJM’s endgame ships, but they’re almost always portrayed as good/healthy because of the equal partnership that is present in those relationships. Thinking about acotar, a relationship where possessiveness and overprotectiveness were depicted in a negative light was between Feyre and Tamlin. Their relationship was imbalance and Tamlin’s possessiveness/overprotectiveness of Feyre stood out in the barriers he placed on Feyre when they were together: not letting her leave the house/keeping her in the house; saying everything is for her “protection”; only letting her talk to Alis and Lucien/limiting her interactions with others; telling Lucien to back off from Feyre because Tamlin saw him as a threat and that she could fall for him instead; having Feyre be dependent on him by not teaching her how to fight/learn how to use her powers; controlling every aspect of Feyre’s life at the beginning of acomaf; among other things.

Males in acotar feel an intrinsic sense of entitlement to their mate and are described as being protective and possessive over their mates. When people say that A is exhibiting “mate behavior” towards E, obviously there is a positive connotation associated with that phrase because of how the males act around their mate. But the thing is A isn’t E’s mate. A’s possessiveness of E is treading on the waters of Tamlin-ville because: A speaks for E, which is oddly similar to what some of E’s stans do in fandom discussions (as if E herself reached out of the book to personally tell them things that no one else knows); he makes it known that E shouldn’t help with the Dread Trove, which is an example of A attempting to limit what E does; and he subtly expresses a sense of entitlement over E in the bonus chapter during his conversation with Rhys when he questions if the Cauldron was wrong in pairing E with Lucien. A’s “mate behavior” is completely different from Rhys and Cassian because Rhys and Cassian are canonically mated to Feyre and Nesta, which plays a role in how they act towards them. Also, neither of them attempt to limit what Feyre and Nesta do even if they worry about their safety. To say that A is exhibiting “mate behavior” towards E would have the same effect as saying Tamlin was exhibiting “mate behavior” towards Feyre. I think that the reason A’s actions towards E are described as mate-like is because thinking otherwise calls his actions into question. I assume some people aren’t ready for that conversation because he’s been portrayed as the sad bat boy in the fandom for so long that it’s probably hard for people to come to terms with this not being the case.

When people say A being overprotective of E is similar to Rhys and Cassian being overprotective of Feyre and Nesta, the comparison becomes incomparable because A is overprotective of E to the point where he goes against what E wants to do (E stating she wanted to help find the dread trove, a scene in which A was present and later A said E shouldn’t be exposed to its innate darkness), while Rhys and Cassian know Feyre and Nesta are capable of fending for themselves in dangerous situations. It’s just ironic that A’s overprotectiveness in this moment contradicts E’s “choice” of wanting to help, yet I don’t see that being mentioned in those “choice” arguments.

Jealousy

Jealousy in the romance genre is always meant to further the romance between the love interests and we see that happen with rowaelin and chaorene (and probably other SJM ships too). But when the jealousy and the romance are disconnected from each other, that’s meant to show something about the character who is jealous and what they’re jealous of. On the second page of the bonus chapter, it’s established that A is envious of Cassian and Rhys and that the reason he remained downstairs by the fire was so that he didn’t get swallowed up by his jealousy in his room. Then on the third page, it’s revealed that the reason he stayed by the door at Solstice was because “he couldn’t stand the sight of it, the scent of their mating bond, and needed to have the option of leaving if it became too much”. There is a blatant reimagining happening with A’s bonus chapter to make it seem as though his jealousy is romantically coded when the jealousy has nothing to do with his relationship with E and more to do with him. This reimagining has to be a case of people seeing what they want to see because I highly doubt people are out here failing literature class.

The Romance Genre & SJM

A and E’s interaction in the bonus chapter is frequently compared to Wings and Embers. The only similarity between these two chapters is the sexual undertones, which is part of the reason why I think people compare them in the first place because everything else (the structure of the chapters, their contents, and the amount of characters involved in them) is different. I think people are hiding behind the sexual undertones of the bonus chapter in hopes that it somehow overshadows not only the oddness of A’s interaction with E, but the ending of the bonus chapter as well. And even more than that, A giving away the necklace is compared to Cassian tossing Nesta’s present in the Sidra. Since A is able to give the necklace away that should tell you about the significance of the necklace’s connection to E herself (if A can easily give it away to the next person on the street) whereas Cassian regifting Nesta’s present would probably be meaningless to someone else because it was Nesta specific.

We know that acotar is more romance heavy compared to tog and cc so I can see why people lean more on the conventions of the romance genre as a basis for their arguments. And this is fueled by SJM saying this new trilogy will have one couple per book. However, the downfall of these arguments is that oftentimes the plot, narrative structure of this new trilogy in particular, and individual character progressions are secondary or afterthoughts to the romance they support. These arguments lack any real substance because acotar has proved time and time again that both the romance AND the plot work in tandem, going against the broad strokes of the romance genre formula where the romance is primarily in the spotlight.

Basically, why do you think A’s possessiveness, jealousy, and overprotectiveness of E is romanticized? Why do you think A and E’s dynamic is constantly compared to feysand and nessian? And why do you think people take issue with A being compared to Tamlin?

I think that the reason A’s actions towards E are described as mate-like is because thinking otherwise calls his actions into question.

THIS

I hate the whole discussion of "mate behavior" because the series doesn't even explain that very well. Rhys can't explain why people are mated, if it's for reproduction or being "equals" (in what sense, who knows), the courts all handle acceptance/rejection differently, the consequences of rejection are unclear and make it seem like the woman is beholden to accept on pain of... causing someone else pain.

I agree 100% that people (maybe unconsciously) try to ascribe "mate behavior" to Azriel in order to excuse what would ordinarily be inexcusable. He doesn't have some magical thing making him act this way. Neither did Tamlin, and we know how people view his behavior. And that's another thing with "mate behavior" and the bond. Why would Tamlin and Feyre not be mates, if all it took were these extreme possessive and protective behaviors? Why aren't Az and Mor mates?

And it's not even about Elain! Az acts like this with Mor, and we know there isn't a mating bond there. Azriel has zero reason to behave the way that he does, not in the same way that the mating bond gives Rhys and Cassian an "excuse", flimsy as it is, for the way that they act around Nesta and Feyre. Even that excuse is crap, because we have Rhys out here leaving Feyre's abusive ex alone, and then we have Lucien doing the same with Graysen. The definition of "mate behavior" that some of the fandom is working with... is sus.

The fact is that no matter how "overprotective" and possessive Rhys and Cassian were, they never prevented Nesta or Feyre from doing what they wanted. They might have gotten their hackles up, but then they backed off. Rhys sent Feyre into the Weaver's cottage. Nesta went to war. There is a balance between caring deeply and passionately for these women, and recognizing them as individuals whose autonomy should be respected.

The jealousy is 100% not about Elain. It's not about Elain being with Lucien. It's not about Mor, because we know that it's not really about Mor sleeping with Helion. Azriel has 99 problems, and 98.5 of them are about his childhood and his loneliness. The other 0.5 problem comes in the shape of a snowball.

The only similarity between these two chapters is the sexual undertones

You know I haven't done a full blown comparison between these chapters, but I'd agree. The entire Wings and Embers short was about Nesta and Cassian. There were no other characters and they learned a great deal about one another. What did Elain and Az learn about one another as people in the first third of his POV? Nothing. There was no tension between them other than sexual. Cassian thought Nesta's name over and over, thought about her as a person and her personality and how she made him feel. Azriel literally only thinks about fucking Elain. There is nothing wrong with fucking, obviously, but that's not love. (Maybe I should fully compare them idk.)

It's when we look at everything he doesn't say in conjunction with how he treats Elain and Mor in other scenarios... that's troubling. People can misread our 😬 at his behavior all they want, but the fact is that Az didn't have a single kind, original thought about who Elain is. His POV gave us zero extra insight into who Elain is as a person, which is... startling, if we are supposed to think that they know one another so incredibly well and have such intense feelings for each other. Why would we not get additional insight into her character? We get a lot of insight into Az's character for sure. But following his POV, if he loves and knows this woman so well, we should feel that. We should know why he loves her, what he knows about her, we should... just get some more damn insight into her character, if we are in the POV of someone who supposedly knows her so well!!!!

You know it's funny though, because the Az and Elain interaction in his POV mirrors when Nesta imagined a threesome with Az and Cassian. Close, and potentially pretty hot, but it never really happened because then it would mess up sjm's plans for the future.

Okay now to your ACTUAL questions haha and not just my reactions to what you said.

I agree that romanticizing Azriel's behaviors is the better option for people who ship it because otherwise the alternative is to accept them for what they are, which is not about Elain at all. Az has an even longer history of being all "mate behavior" on Mor, but no one thinks that's odd? I think that some people pick and choose their evidence, which is a big reason why I keep shoving Mor into these conversations. If the "mate behavior" argument was genuine and had a solid foundation, then the people making these claims would still ship moriel.

The whole thing with Az and Tamlin comparisons.... oh boy. I think there is a lot there.

I think that people don't want to see Az as anything less than perfect sad boi that Elain can fix with her love.

I think that people have a difficult time seeing emotional abuse IRL, to the point where even people who experience it directly struggle to come to terms with it, so why would we willingly embrace its presence in fiction? It also flirts with a lot of the ideas you mentioned being present in a lot of romance, though I'd argue a lot of those elements are becoming passé.

I think that Tamlin is Fandom Enemy Number One while Azriel is Self-insert Book Boyfriend Number One, and maybe people don't know how to reconcile those things. (This is quite literally true, I checked AO3 for reader fanfics and compared numbers between the bat boys, Az/reader fics win by a landslide.)

There also seems to be a refusal to see or accept nuance. I'm not even talking about moral complexity because I don't think that either Tamlin or Az intend to behave the way they do. They aren't villains. It just reminds me of people who somehow don't think Nesta was absolutely horrible through much of the series, even though a huge focus of her arc in acosf was coming to terms with how she had treated people. Anyway...

People see "gwynriel shipper" or "elucien 💕" in a bio and just dismiss arguments before trying to understand them

People try to justify their actions of their faves, which I understand!

People don't understand how subtle emotional abuse can be, and how there doesn't have to be clear intention.

I still plan on pulling out evidence from the book about times when their behaviors mirror one another. But it's like I've said for months - Tamlin is a cautionary tale. I don't think Azriel will go that far, but the foundation is there. The fact that acotar/acomaf was so, so explicit about how Tamlin's behavior was not okay, and yet people can see that same behavior in another character one book later and want to try to excuse it... sigh. Way to miss the point, fandom.

#the brielle tag #ask #not even gonna tag these characters #my stalkers will love this post though #💋#antielriel

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