#<- help what do people actually use in this fandom

[blossomthepinkbunny]

Hazbins bad character design

I feel like there is a definitive lack of varitey when it comes to the designs in HH as well as a problem of characters' designs not fitting them or what the show wants us to assume about them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (like lots of other ppl already) but the designs in HH specifically mostly don't work. They're fine if you look at them disconnected from the show. Maybe as just random characters who don't really have to carry a show visually. But they don't work if you actually put them into context and into the background of Hazbin Hotel.

Obviously this stuff is very objective and if you do like the designs thats fine (which I shouldn't even have to say). Also I didn't study art or character design and I don't think you have to to be good at it/be able to form opinions on it and this is mostly just me compiling what I don't like while using some basic knowledge on how shapes, colours etc work.

(rant under the cut)

One problem I really have is, that as soon as you have a design there are immediate assumptions about the character. In the sense that if person A is very muscular and fights against person B, who is maybe slimmer or less buff, you would probably immediately assume that person A wins, atleast in physical combat. Whereas person B would probably be the assumed winner in a stretching or flexibility competition. Often characters are designed with these assumptions in mind. Muscle, height, weight, age, clothes etc. give way into assuming stuff about people, their condition, lifestyle or personality.

The expectations that are set up by the design choices are usually either picked to genuinely represent something about a character or to be subverted and shock/confuse the audience.

Like how a lot of fighting types in Pokémon will either be more muscular or have other details relating to certain fighting styles/sports and the fairy types are usually pinkish, fluffy and cutesy. Because these elements are something typically associated with these types and when we look at them we can pretty easily tell which type they're supposed to be.

Otherwise, Monster girl from Invincible is drawn as a twelve year old girl, so it subverts expectations when she turns into a big green monster and generally doesn't stray away from violence, because it's something you wouldn't have assumed about her from her appearance.

In Hazbin Hotel most of the time the character designs don't necessarily fit what they're supposed to be and they also don't use the other design choices as subversion (the one that would probably count here is Nifty with looking and acting very childlike usually but then also acting violent/crazy sometimes).

The first thing would probably be that characters don't look their age mostly.

Charlie and Valeria (Vaggie, but I really don't wanna keep calling her that so she gets a new name) look fine as they're supposed to be around 20. Rosie and Carmilla also look alright for what we can assume their ages are supposed to be. But Alastor is in his 30s or 40s (what it says on the fandom wiki) and he looks around 20 as well. The same thing goes for Lucifer. He looks so young that he could also count as just Charlies brother or friend rather than her dad, because he doesn't look like he could be the dad of a 20 year old. This makes the song "Hell's Greatest Dad" a bit awkward because these men are singing/competing about who is better as Charlies father but they don't look a day older than her. Husk also looks way too young for someone in his 60s-70s (again from the wiki).

The body types being all the same also doesn't help.

Mimzy and Adam are pretty much the only more relevant characters who aren't like all the others in terms of body shape. All the other relevant women in the show have a tiny waist and either big boobs/big hips or just a slimmer build in general. All the men have thin waists and then broader shoulders.

And for some characters it makes sense. Like Angel is really flexible and his more lanky body fits with being a spider. But why are Lucifer and Valentino like that? Other than the fact that Viv doesn't like drawing muscles there is really no reason for them too being build like every other skinny man there. Valentino is supposed to be intimidating not just by how he acts but physically too. He seemingly has a bit more muscle than others but his arms are still super thin and look like they could snap if I look at them wrong. I'm not trying to say that abusers all have to be buff, but simply from a design perspective the scenes with him would be a lot more effective if we saw him actually have a big physical advantage over Angel and others, even when he isn't necessarily threatening them. As soon as he comes on screen, we could see him as a much more intimidating presence, especially when all the other characters look like sticks. Or they could make it so, that he hides his muscles under his coat and when we get the reveal of him actually removing it, it's more shocking and immediately makes the situation more tense.

Lucifer could've had a more confident frame as well. He's the king of hell and the strongest being in hell, so just for the diversity I would give him some muscles too. Husk is also super skinny and for someone who only sits around and drinks alcohol all day, he should definitely have a beer belly (please I swear to god I wanna see more men with bellies, Mammon was great). Also for Valeria and Lute and pretty much all the Angels I don't get why they wouldn't be more buff either. Valeria is a fighter, she's Charlies bodyguard but she looks like all of the other women there. It's stated that Angels fight so wild because they don't know they could get hurt. And while I know that the Angels can really only get hurt by angelic weapons, having this whole reveal that they can be injured would've definitely suprised me more, if they actually looked like they couldn't be injured in the first place. But then again, Valeria looks like her arms would break as soon as a breeze hits them too hard. In some episodes her thighs look a bit more muscular, but not notably and she also doesn't fight using her legs (like Carmilla) so only her thighs being bigger sort of doesn't make sense. In general, she or Lute don't show any difference to the women who aren't physical fighters. And obviously just to have a more interesting show to look at, including different body types would do a great job at making these characters stand apart from eachother more.

While we're on the topic of diversity, another obvious thing that makes the characters redundant and borig (sometimes ugly too) is the reused colour pallette. Colour coding is probably one of the easiest things when talking about character designs and it's something atleast Helluva Boss understands.

What effect warm/cold tones have or what feelings we associate with different colours is a great way to bring stuff about characters across without being too on the nose. Obviously colour can also be used to either connect characters or to make them very distinct. Shape language also plays into that of course. In Inside Out the emotions are mostly characterized by their respective colour and by their distinct shapes.

Joy = yellow (bright colour often associated with the sun/light)

Sadness = blue (cold colour often associated with tears/rain)

Anger = red (very strong colour with aggressive association with fire or when someone turns red because of anger)

Fear = purple (light colour here, mix between red and blue as fear often falls into a more angry or sad feeling)

Disgust = green (colour of most dirt or puke or other stuff people usually see as gross)

Or in a show like Bluey, where different patterns, shapes and colours show the breed of the dog and also how characters might be related to eachother (same breed/mix of breed = usually related).

Or how colours can be used as lighting effects to create cool shots when the colour pallette changes all of a sudden. In JJBA these changes happen often when someone is in distress or unsure of themselves. Also in tense moments to make them seem more exciting and interesting.

Hazbin Hotel has very limited range when it comes to the colours of the main cast. All of them feature some form of red and that usually in combination with black or white (if they aren't just purely red like Alastor or Rosie). This makes them not stand out from eachother and creates very similar colour pallettes which get boring once you've seen them repeated over and over again. It also makes the visual connection between characters who are actually related (like Charlie and Lucifer) a lot less strong because so many characters share similarities already.

Also they just hurt to look at sometimes because the background is mostly red as well and with a lot of them being very overly detailed. People have also spoken before about the show being pretty inaccessible for colour blind/vision impared people due to these issues with the colour.

And now you might say that it's hell and therefore it makes sense for all of them and the background to be red. But firstly, I don't think that there is a definitive source which decides that hell is red and can only be shown/interpreted as red. And also there is another show, also set in hell which actually does a much better job at that and actually shows different colours in hell. Like in Helluva Boss the rings are all colour coded.

And I know, that HH plays in the pride ring fully, but imagine how cool it would've been to see sinners have colours similar to the sin(s) they committed. This could lead to them looking distinct from eachother and the background and would also lead to us being able to assume stuff about them, if we're familiar with the colour coding. In "Hell's Greatest Dad" they do a fun colour change with different light and it's really refreshing and I just wanted to see more variety like that (of course I kinda get that the colour changing isn't really part of the shows design but it was pretty cool to see in that song).

There also is the issue with characters that are supposed to be animal-like sinners not looking like the animal they apparently take inspiration from. The thing is that the animal/object parts don't necessarily have to be visible to understand a character. But in the show, how sinners look in hell is often influenced by their life on earth. Vox's head being a TV is because he was a Tv-show host when he was alive. Nifty also is supposedly a bug, which makes sense because she hates bugs and probably hated them in real life too. But that is where it would be great to actually have Nifty resemble a bug, instead she has no features of one and just looks like a regular humanoid sinner. The same thing happens with Alastor being a deer, Valeria a moth, Charlie goat-like and Angel a spider (also Mimzy is apparently based off of a chicken). Like I said, the animal inspiration isn't essential to the characters, but emphasizing these design elements could help the characters stand out instead of them all just looking like sort of human characters. Sir pentious and Husk work the best in terms of presenting their animal inspiration (though pretty much everything else about Husks design sucks ass).

And then there are complaints about the characters that are supposed to be people of colour not having any features that resemble their race. It's just a bit weird when a mostly humanoid sinner doesn't really seem to resemble how the person looked in real life. Black characters have really desaturated and sometimes just straight up grey skin in HH. Alastor is probably the most egregious in that regard, but also Emily has just light blueish gray skin and no textured hair or other black features like the nose or lips or palms. Velvette and Sera have darker skin but also no other features (except for when we see Velvette's natural hair texture in like one shot at the end of the season). I know there are other things wrong with how Voodoo is presented in HH or with Mimzy's design often being seen as a jewish caricature, but I don't wanna focus on that fully, because I feel like there are people better suited for talking about that (black people or jewish people ofc).

In general HH is a show with pretty bad designs (imo). That's actually a thing I prefer about Helluva Boss, because there the designs are mostly okay or actually sometimes pretty good. Striker is probably my favourite design in both shows (he reminds me of Dillon and that's cool).

I like Mammon, Asmodeus, Octavia and Loona as well. I would still probably change a bunch if I were to redesing the HB cast but they overall look more solid than the HH cast.

This was another post which pretty quickly became an excuse to talk about other media I enjoy. I might do that more often, because comparing elements of HH or HB to other stuff makes it kinda easier to articulate my feelings. Also just because I enjoy talking about other stuff too.

#hazbin hotel critical #vivzepop critical #hazbin hotel criticism #hazbin hotel critique #anti vivziepop #character design

[lucienne-thee-librarian]

Just to minimize my chances of being genuinely misunderstood OR deliberately misinterpreted, and crucified for something I don't think, How Dare You Say We Piss on the Poor website etc...I'm gonna say this right up top. I absolutely understand why people don't like Thessaly as a character, if anyone does completely unironically stan her as some kind of feminist hero who Did Nothing Wrong uwu, I personally see it as a bit of a red flag. I don't like terfs real or fictional. In a vacuum, I could even completely sympathize and agree with the people who want her cut.

HOWEVER.

It's really something to me to see people clamoring for her to be cut, because she carries and expressed an ugly indefensible prejudice (transphobia) in words towards (1) person. Meanwhile Hob fucking Gadling enacted one of the most violent forms of antiblack racism I can even think of against thousands no, millions of people, the ripple effects of which still affect billions more today. Just a little light idk, profiting off the fucking slave trade and had to be told by someone else that it was bad...and he's a fan favorite.

People are saying Thessally being Dream's love interest reflects badly on him or is somehow endorsement by the narrative (?!?!?!?!?!? Didn't she (SPOILER ALERT AS IF IT MATTERS BY NOW) help participate in his extended assisted suicide? She's not painted as a great person to me just another character what are y'all SMOKING whatever fine. It's fine this is fine.) But shipping Dream with Mr. Former Slaver is not only not verboten or frowned on widely in the fandom but its THEE most popular pairing by far. So...why the difference?

Like where are the same fans who are saying Thessaly shouldn't just be more clearly shown to be wrong, she shouldn't even be in the show at all when it comes to Hobert's crimes??? Yes, transphobia is indefensible. Isn't racism?

And I hear the cries of "it's fiction!!!" Already rallying (if anyone who needs to hear this even sees it lol) to which I say:

HORSESHIT. I KNOW you don't, deep down, really agree because if you did, why get upset about Thessaly being included??? Why does what she said to one person matter if it's Just Fiction You Guyze. Fictional characters are allowed to do bad things and fiction isn't reality sweaty....except when you only apply that standard to fictional racists you like and simp for, but fictional transphobes you don't are SO HARMFUL they shouldn't even be portrayed in fiction.

Like. Give me a big fat BREAK. This looks like bullshit, no? I'm sorry, but I'd love for someone to try and give any other explanation besides one personally offended you or hit home for you, and the other doesn't.

And if that bothers you or you feel like it says something negative about you...idk what you want me to say??? You can't control how other people perceive you and that's how people outside this majority-of-the-fandom bubble see it. You don't need to respond, I just wish and genuinely hope this gives you a moment to think about why fans who ARE bothered by both (and not just paying lip service to being bothered by the one but railing against the other) are so frustrated with people saying everyone is welcome but in practice only bending over backwards for the comfort and emotions of themselves, and people they can easily relate to.

You don't have to like Thessaly (I don't. I find her an interesting antagonist, I don't stan her. And frankly that's not the point of her character) but you'll pardon me for feeling more than a bit cynical and side eying people's motivations for what seems a...pretty obvious double standard, on what fictional crimes related to real world issues matter to y'all, and which clearly don't. Either actually bring the same energy to the table for fictional people who committed atrocities, even if against a group you're not part of and thus don't feel the need to empathize with, or just carry on, but accept that you don't have the SLIGHTEST room to talk about cutting characters who do immoral things. And you also need to accept that you look like a hypocrite when you do.

#thessaly #the sandman #hob gadling #I could've cried sexism!!! Problematic Male vs Female Characters except 1) I don't actually think that's the main reason *here* #2) there are WAY better examples of that particular double standard in this fandom #also i can admit when I'm a bit of a hypocrite or was. #i used to dip my toes into the dreamling stuff too early on #but idk. It just got too sour seeing ppl whitewash (lol I know I'm a comedian) #what he did over and over. And I genuinely had started to wonder #if the show hadn't included that particular crime and I'd just imagined it from the comics because #my memory is shit sometimes and I guess I was naive. I *wanted* to believe someone would talk aboutit #if it had made it in. but ultimately i went back and checked and no #and seeing how the whole fandom behaving affected my non-white mutuals some of whom... #like these are my friends man or ppl I just respect and I can't just. Ignore their feelings and their pov #and act like they werent making points or it doesn't matter #like it's all just fun and games for everyone on the same terms. And seeing how easy it was #for everyone to ignore was so unsettling. I couldn't keep pretending it was just fiction and didn't affect anyone real #Call me a bully a t3rf apologist (fuck you and for the record. no) #a puritan or a Fancop (actually stop comparing #people disagreeing with you online to what cops do. For fucks sake you just make it look like nothing is really real to you outside fandom) #whatever man. Whatever helps you sleep. I'm just gonna block you #if you're clearly sticking your fingers in your ears. engaging with you is a waste of time and energy then #Hell I have sympathy for anyone who doesn't like thessaly #especially trans fans. Especially rn. But lbr that sympathy for a lot of the white trans/queer fans only goes one way!!! #never gets extended to anyone else's issues. Like THATSthe issue. And it's shitty! #(sorry this post is not about me in the confessional lol that's why I put this at the bottom #I just had feelings to get out and yes its my blog but i didn't want to clog the airways)

[dollypopup]

interesting that people are still saying that they need to see Colin humbled and criticizing him for being 'smug' in the first views we have of Season 3

almost like. . .they don't actually understand his character

almost like. . .they don't want to

Colin is a character who is consumed externally. Through other people's eyes. Through Marina's and Penelope's and Anthony's viewpoints, through the ton's viewpoint. And that makes him a character you have to dig into and *actively* consider his POV in order to properly grasp the extent of him, since he has been largely denied that POV by the narrative. And when you do that, when you consider his perspective, you realize that the 'smug' veneer people are criticizing? Yeah, that's not actually Colin. It is the view of him. It's the persona he wears. That he shows us. That we consume without question.

Because we? We are the ton. We are who Colin criticizes as only seeing him as an empty charmer. As a smug flirt. As a man with no substance.

Colin is *already* humbled, and his suave exterior is the protection of such, the armor to shield him from society, because when he didn't have it? He was hurt.

Colin loses his father at 12 years old. Colin is sent off to boarding school away from his family almost immediately after Edmund dies. Colin grieves alone. Colin is made fun of by his older brother. Colin is teased for being a virgin, for being earnest, for being a romantic. Colin's first foray into love ends with a public blowup of his engagement. Colin is humiliated to his entire community. Colin is depressed in Season 2. Colin tries finding escape in new places and drugs and letters. Colin is hardly even noticed by his own mother. Colin tries talking about his experiences and people roll their eyes at him, so he stops talking about it. Colin writes on his travels a second time and barely gets a response back. Colin is ghosted by his best friend with no explanation. Colin apologizes. Repeatedly. Wholeheartedly. To Penelope. To Will. To Marina. Colin is told off to his face and *accepts it*. Colin is accused of being a foolish boy caught up in fantasies and bows his head and says 'very well'. Colin is informed that he hurt Penelope and called cruel and immediately apologizes. Takes accountability for what he said with no excuses, praises her, and offers to help her achieve her goals.

When Colin says that charm can be taught, he speaks from experience. He was a sad, lonely young man in Season 2, he is playing a role in Season 3. That's the whole point. Colin *is already humble*.

But furthermore. . .so what if he is more confident in Season 3? What did he do exactly that was so horrible that we need him to be knocked down several pegs? When he is already overlooked even in his own family? And the answer is. . .he didn't love Penelope soon enough.

But that's also not true. Colin has loved Penelope more than anyone else, out loud, and unhesitatingly. It hasn't been romantic and sexual, but that doesn't mean he hasn't loved her. Who asks how Penelope is faring? Colin. Who is the only one in the sitting room in Season 1 to bid her a good day? Colin. Who is the one who is praising Penelope for being smart and sharp and witty and funny and warm and clever? Colin. Who is the one writing to her on the off season, keeping her company? Colin. Who is the one who looks to her home, no doubt wondering how she's doing? Colin.

This fandom has a grudge against him for increasingly infuriating reasons. This is the season he falls in love, and the grand majority of people don't want to understand him, his motivations or characterization. Going so far as to immediately think he's ignoring Penelope in the first 5 minute clip, when she is hiding in the bushes. When the entire family walked down the stairs and didn't notice her right in front of them. We will bend ourselves into pretzels to justify hating on him or insulting him or wanting to see him ground to nothing, and yet accept the most surface level reading of him possible. You can't do that with a character like Colin. His conflict is internal, and the narrative has not given us much glimpse of it. Regardless of whether or not it has gotten overt screentime, Colin is a complex, deep character.

We, however, are a shallow audience.

We are the ton.

#colin bridgerton #penelope featherington #polin #bridgerton season 3 #bridgerton #media comprehension isn't dead y'all i swear i PROMISE #colin bridgerton my beloved #i will always love you #best bton character you can't change my mind

[charmac]

just wanna say I agree wholeheartedly with your tags on that fandom post. I have been following sunny on here since 2015 and there is a constant cycle of sensitive, and frankly delusional people, who claim the show, make crazy headcanons and justifications to make it tolerable and acceptable to them before they eventually shun and condemn the show altogether. it was very bad in 2018 and made me withdraw from the fandom lmao. I remember being most annoyed with the endless woobifying of charlie and the absolute condemnation of dee above everyone else. like, they're all bad. that's the point of the show. I just don't understand how they could stomach it in the first place

You are a warrior, dude.

The reason it took me so long to join Sunnyblr in the first place was the fact that ~early 2020 I was rarely seeing anything here that was based in canon, mostly weird headcanons that made no sense to me, and Reddit genuinely seemed like a more based place to exist for this show.

I literally needed a friend to give me specific accounts to follow because the tag was (and, sorry, lowkey still is) a nightmare. (Though to be fair I’ve been in fandoms on Tumblr for over a decade and literally never liked scrolling tags.)

I got into Sunny and I fell in love with Sunny because of canon. Because it’s so fucking weird and fucked up but it’s FUNNY, and there’s genuinely nothing like it. The characters are horrible stupid terrible people but they’re actually deeply complex and rich to study, so much so that you feel extremely compelled in a multitude of ways to dedicate yourself to some part of them, or all parts of them. But.. if you strip them of those core identities, of what the characters stand for, that compulsion is gone, void, irrelevant.

Because it’s the extremely raw, almost purely acting on basic instinct, unfiltered humanity, worst parts of the self, inability to recognise or follow societal norms aspects of these characters that are relatable. It’s relatable in a way that *should* make you uncomfortable, feel unsettled, and maybe a little relieved that these parts of people can be acknowledged... That’s a unique and interesting feeling, something people engage with media like this to explore and expand upon, and it’s often something that genuinely helps or supports people who wrestle with a lot of the heavy concepts Sunny satirises (and sometimes just, shoves at you head on).

When people start to disregard all of this, for whatever reason they do, that’s when you end up with the Fandom using Sunny Characters as an “ability to project” or (much worse) a “near blank canvas to play with” (because, yeah, if you strip them of their literal reason for being created and continued existence, ofc you lose their whole identity!?)

The problem seems to be that either 1) they just don’t understand the show well enough to get that they’re disregarding this aspect of the plots and characters, and so they genuinely don’t recognise that the fandom for Sunny exists because of these terrible compulsions and insane trauma exploration and that’s why we enjoy discussing and playing with these characters or 2) they do understand this but they can’t engage with it without some kind of personal moral conundrum or extreme discomfort, so they have to sanitise or completely alter the characters to enjoy them.

The thing is, if you fall into category 2, you just don’t belong in the depths of it all, and it’s an unfortunate truth you have to face. If you cannot enjoy canon, if the actual show makes you extremely uncomfortable and you’re only here for a gay ship or to project your gender and sexuality onto one character, you need to go stan something else. I say that with the greatest intentions for you. As Anon here has stated, it’s an insane cycle in this fandom over and over, you’re just going to upset yourself and resent the show and the people here, because we like the canon and the fuckery because that’s what the show is for. That is the literal point of the show at the end of the day.

Now if you’re in category 1, I heavily encourage you to actually *talk to people about the show and the characters*, read analysis, watch the episodes with different frames of reference and in alternate states of mind. Do your own analysis or character work, try and just write out the plot of your favourite episode and put to words *why* you like it. Hell, try and write a fanfic or a spec script from the mind of one of the characters, even if you think you can’t write.

Honestly, honestly, honestly, if you genuinely like this show at face value but you’re only engaging with fanon because you feel like you ‘shouldn’t’ openly enjoy the canon because it’s seen as ‘bad,’ the best thing you can do is have a conversation with someone, or multiple people, who get the show.

That being said, I do wanna open this shell Discord I’ve made to people. For people who *enjoy* the canon, who want to discuss actual Sunny (and also have fun with it, of course!) you’re welcome to join.

A lot of you get it. I’ve made some amazing friends in this fandom and regularly have extremely stimulating and insanely throught provoking convos with the people I’ve met here. I love it, it drives my insane passion for this show and I am eternally grateful to have found people who love this show for what it is. I hope, if you’re struggling to figure out why you like this show or struggling to accept that you like media like Sunny, you reach out or join a conversation and learn to love it too. And if you don’t, if you genuinely hate the canon of this show and only like the version of Macdennis you saw in a dozen different Tiktok edits to Taylor Swift songs, I really hope you move on for your own sake.

#iasip #main tag fuck it #ask #and i’ll say in the tags here #macdennis would be ‘proship’ in literally any other fandom #accept it and make peace with it okay? #all of their canon moments are non con or dubcon at best #and that’s FUCKING FINE THATS WHY ITS APPEALING. #this is not the fluffy gay ship you want #and you’re just gonna get hurt when canon continues to canon #sorry for formatting i’m at the office so i had to notes app this #also im at the office so bare with me if you’re joining the discord rn lol #but i wanted to respond to this #and also i have nothing to do at work rn lol

[peanut-with-wifi-access]

What's up with MK?

[a theory crafted thru pure over analysis and attachment to minor characters/scenes]

{thank you to @trix-with-wifi-access for listening to my rants and assisting in my insanity}

spoilers for Lego Monkie Kid, s5 trailer not directly included tho.

If any of this is unintelligible, blame the fact it's like 6am and I'm only writing all of this outta a sudden burst of motivation.

I don't think MK is okay

Yeah, stating obvious aren't I? Well, I don't mean mentally. Ofc he's not mentally okay. I mean physically (or magically at this point tbh)

I think there's something Wrong with whatever MK is. But b4 I dive too deep into that, let's set up some bases.

MK's monkie statue. We all know that's his. He showed to Pigsy's doorstep covered in clay, which considering Nüwa, this statue is 100% made of.

The thing I wish to point out is that it's broken. Nearly in half. Something went wrong here.

We know we can't trust a word outta Subohdi's mouth, considering that not only does he claim MK's statue was remade from the fragments of Wukong's egg (which was made of stone, not clay) and even says himself that he doesn't know what's up with MK.

Anyway. As you likely recall, right after all of this, The Ink Curse throws Subohdi out of the way and appears directly to MK.

The little statue disappears, and the curse emerges from an ink puddle stemming partly from the rock.

And it appears looking like Monkie!MK.

The Curse (fuck it I'm tired of typing that. This is why we have fan names—) Mozhi doesn't appear like this to anyone else, other than manifesting as past Wukong to mock him alone. Wukong, also a monkie.

but it only does that after it's been directly provoked and attacked. MK didn't do anything, and Mozhi still appeared. In a mockery of what he truly is.

Mozhi appears in the form of an animal. In the form of everything MK's denying. It switches back and forth between "we" and "you". I also wish to mention MK's slip up with "we help people"

For some reason, Mozhi feels the need to directly confront MK, to the point of even attacking him with his own powers (and... Well I'll save that for another post actually).

Why?

Why did Mozhi decide that MK being in denial of what he is was so bad it needed to appear and beat the truth into him?

"This is your fate, your friends will turn on you, seeing you for the monster you will become. They will destroy you, Harbinger Of Chaos"

"Then prove us wrong."

is it just me, or did this seem like a last minute Warning? To be careful of what you will become, or you will be destroyed by your own friends?

Prove us wrong. Us. MK believes it. MK believes that his friends will inevitably turn on him. He doesn't just need to prove Mozhi wrong. He has to prove himself wrong.

Harbinger Of Chaos. We're all so tired of hearing that title, aren't we? Everyone in fandom talks about it non-stop. But I have seen very few mention something rather important.

Chaos is yin. The darkness with the speck of light.

and of course, yin cannot exist without yang.

Chaos cannot exist without Order.

I think that's what happened to the statue. Chaos lost it's Order, dark lost it's light, and now everything is eternally doomed. Unless said Order is found of course, but I'll get into that eventually.

What would the power of chaos do to make up for the lack of order? Well, it'd try to find something to fill the void. To fix that broken half. Anything will do, it just needs more power. It's too weak, it cannot survive like this. Without order.

... I'll just say it. I'm 99% sure MK's actual Mystic Monkie Power™ is Mimicking. The desperate attempt of chaos to fix what's broken without the necessary tools.

Would make thematic sense too. Chaos is unpredictable, Clay is easy to mold, etc etc.

But what does this really have to do with anything? Well, let's tie all those orange threads together, hm?

MK is not as strong as Wukong or even Macaque, two of the other 4 Mystic Monkies. Oh he's certainly strong (need I remind you of what he did to Azure) but simply not as undyingly OP as the SundialDuo/ShadowPeach.

He's weakened by whatever happened to his statue. Whatever ripped Order from Chaos.

MK's clay statue is broken almost in half, and he's only approximately half as strong as he really should be.

I think MK is only one half of a Mystic Monkie that was supposed to truly embody Yin/Yang. Something happened, and the statue that was supposed to become that monkie was broken.

MK winds up with most of what he needs to survive and stay stable (as shown by his statue being about 60% intact) but he's not as strong as he should be, and is left scrambling for anything that can give him even a scrap of the power he's supposed to have.

What happened to the other half? What happened to Order? Well, that leads into another theory... But let's just say I have my suspicions involving a barely-a-character that I got too attached to.

after all, what's more orderly than memories?

Ignoring that, focusing back on MK. My prediction for s5 is him finding out about this from Nüwa. After all, my theory is that she broke the statue.

... Ah, forgot to mention that. Allow me to elaborate.

I think Nüwa was genuinely excited to create something new. Something powerful. A Mystic Monkie! Finally!

But why was she allowed to do this? Because there was one less Mystic Monkie. With Macaque dead for who even knows how long, there was a long time where there were only 3 of the original 4 Mystic Monkies.

Nüwa took this opportunity and ran with it, getting permission from whoever to create a replacement, since Mac didn't seem to be coming back.

But come back he did! And having 5 Mystic Monkies running around would be such a pain to keep track of, especially considering what happened with Wukong!

So, Nüwa was either commanded to break the statue, or did it herself. Destroy what she had created so that nothing like Wukong would ever happen again

Oh but how attached she got, to a little statue not even brought to life yet. So much potential. So much power. Made of the same Clay she carefully crafted her original, precious humans out of. She always loved to create, but was never allowed to bring what she made to life again.

... Well, this time they only said not to have another Mystic Monkie running around... Nobody said she couldn't bend the rules a bit.

With that, the statue was broken. Her precious clay, her yin, her little Chaos. She put him with the humans. They'd take good care of another clay like them! She doesn't even remember what she did with yang, the Order, the—... the other half. She was too focused on watching her precious Chaos.

Even going down to the mortal realm herself, to keep a closer eye on him. She was there when the sky broke, when Chaos went too far, so she'll be there to assist. To tell her perfect Clay where her stones are, so that he can fix this mess, just as she had years ago.

Five stones.

Four monkies, one half.

—·–-–·—

TL;DR

MK is only one half of a Mystic Monkie (clay, chaos, yin) bc Nüwa's an overly attached idiot and Mac died so this all technically Wukong's fault lmao.

#lego monkie kid #lmk #monkie kid #lmk mk #lmk qi xiaotian #lmk nuwa #nuwa lmk #qi xiaotian #qi xiaotian lmk #mk lmk #mk the monkie kid #ink mk lmk #sun wukong lmk #lmk monkey king #monkey king lmk #lmk Macaque #Macaque lmk #lmk six eared macaque #six eared macaque lmk #sun wukong #six eared macaque #lmk theory #lmk spoilers

[longing-for-rain]

I don’t even understand the character Sokka stans are stanning. It’s not even Sokka. It is like they are taking the big strong tough guy Sokka thinks he is and acting like that is his actual character when it isn’t. I know not all of them are z*kkas but it does seem like atla renaissance and z*kka popularity added to this trend of taking Katara traits and giving them to Sokka instead

Me neither? I honestly don’t dislike Sokka as a character. I never particularly related to him like I do with other characters, but what frustrates me is how the fandom treats him in relation to other characters, especially Katara.

I definitely agree with you that there was a noticeable shift with the ATLA renaissance in 2020. I was in the fandom long before then and the biggest shift I saw was character bashing taking a faux-progressive spin. For example, Mai bashing used to involve calling her ugly and abusive, but shifted into shoving her into sapphic side ships for the aesthetic instead (while still making jabs at her appearance and demeanor, of course, because people can’t be normal about lesbians). As for Katara, it’s even worse. I’ll get into that.

I remember that historically, Katara has been one of the most bashed and hated on characters in the fandom. People would call her bossy and self important, say she was too emotional, that she was too rude, that she didn’t care about other people’s problems, etc. It was blatant back then, but I honestly see the same trends now, just more covertly. People acting like Katara is not as mature as Sokka, not “mom friend,” or otherwise downplaying the responsibilities she had to take on, fundamentally, are operating on the same logic. They do it in a very jokey way a lot of the time or even act like they’re “letting her be a kid” but really it’s just erasing the nuance of her character in the same way overtly misogynistic fans once did.

Because here’s the thing. We can all recognize Katara was forced into a parental role at an early age and that wasn’t fair to her. But acting like that was something that randomly happened on its own is not addressing the problem. But these fans refuse to address the problem by answering the question of why Katara constantly has to take this role…because that would require them to hold Sokka and Aang accountable for their actions and these people will not do that.

I really do think this is tied in with zukka too. I will say that I’m not a zukka anti. I actually really enjoy some zukka content because it can give a refreshing perspective. But I do see a lot of characterizations that are deeply annoying because they really seem like they’re trying to replace Katara. They want the Zutara dynamic but want slash. And I know these characterizations are no longer unique to zukka, but I would agree they were popularized by it.

Just off the top of my head:

The character who is the first of the group to trust Zuko? That was Katara. Sokka was the one in favor of leaving him to die whereas Katara trusted him twice during Book 2.

The character who emotionally connects with Zuko? That’s Katara.

The character who Zuko feels safest letting his guard down around? That’s Katara.

The character who helps Zuko heal from his trauma? That’s Katara.

The character known for showing the most compassion to others? That’s Katara.

The character who primarily bears the burden of having to step up into a parental role? That’s Katara.

The character who represses their emotions to be strong for others? That’s Katara.

And yet, for some reason, there is this new wave of fans who take all of these traits central to Katara and give them to Sokka instead. It’s just frustrating. Sokka is his own character. He’s different. I really just think this is a new brand of misogyny where we take traits like these for granted in female characters but overemphasize them in male characters.

#ask #anon #katara deserved better #pro katara #katara defense squad #zutara #atla #fandom salt #canon critical #katara #sokka #avatar the last airbender #meta

[decepti-thots]

🔥James Roberts?

Fandom should disengage from the idea of authorial intent at least 75% more when analysing the comics he wrote, and the tendency to treat MTMTE specifically as 'functionally fanfic' (when fanfic is- correctly!- subject to a fundamentally different critical approach by readers than non-hobbyist artistic work, one which does not map onto non-fanwork contexts well) is a real problem there. It hampers discussion endlessly IMO. You'll try and talk about the text as-is and people will 'correct' you with tweets or whatever. And so on. You get it from people who like his work and people who dislike it; almost every discussion of the comic seemingly eventually winds up at the dreaded 'but we know what the authorial intent was' moment if it goes on long enough, and I simply do not think that lends to taking the comic seriously as a standalone work that should be discussed in itself. I do not want to talk about the writer's headcanons. I want to talk about the comic.

And to be clear, I don't think the material existing is the problem here. I own a ton of extra-textual stuff relating to MTMTE and think it being near-uniquely documented in this way as a serialised comic is extremely interesting, which is why I've spent so much damn time and sometimes money (with the help of many other kind people) trying to preserve and document as much of that stuff as I can so it doesn't disappear into the ether. I just wish it could all be more widely treated as just that- extra-textual. Context, but not the actual comic itself. It can come after.

So my unpopular opinion is that sometimes, the fandom should pretend the author doesn't have twitter, and care less. Haha. Do a little reader reception theory and pretend he never told us anything, it's good for the creative muscles!

#ask meme

[olderthannetfic]

I havent found the answers to this online, likely due to my own fault of not being able to word it in a SEO friendly way, so I'll just ask here. When it comes to relationship tags, if the relationship is a group with a canon name, is it okay to just tag the name as a relationship, rather than combining all names of all individual members? For example - Marauders 4way fic, can I just tag it as "Marauders"? Fic about all of the avengers together, can I just tag it as "The Avengers"? etc

--

You can tag with anything you want! AO3 is designed to let you make up any tags that make sense to you. You should never feel bad about creating new tags on AO3.

I assume what you're actually asking, however, is if tagging that way will result in the tag being wrangled in a way that's helpful to you. And the answer is... maybe?

If you tag something like "Marauders 4-way", I suspect it will get made a synonym of the filterable tag with all the names written out. Unambiguous nicknames for fandoms, like LotRiPS, get synned to the appropriate fandom tag all the time.

But I'd expect a tag that's just 'Marauders' to get used a lot of different ways. Somebody might mean it as platonic, somebody else not. Somebody might accidentally put that there when they meant to put it in the fandom field or something. If other people are already using the tag ambiguously or if the tag wranglers think it's likely to be ambiguous, they might not wrangle it at all. That would make your work not show up when people filter for the filterable ship tag.

'The Avengers' is even worse because they're not going to know which ship tag to syn that too. Lots of characters have been Avengers! And there are even other fandoms with this name (though I doubt people would tag a ship that way).

I don't think wranglers typically make ship tags of this type canonicals/common (i.e. filterable). Fandom-specific jargon tends to get made a canonical when it's a freeform/additional tag (and only if it's used by 3 different users). The rules for main ship tags are to spell out the names so that it's less ambiguous for fans who maybe aren't in the same part of fandom socially.

--

Anyway, you're allowed to do whatever you want. Personally, I would just make sure the tag is unambiguous.

Unless you don't care about showing up in filters, in which case, really do whatever you want!

[ernmark]

As an extension of your post about epithets, I'm wondering if you can help me pin down what it is about the use of phrases like "those eyes" or "that mouth" that have started to just drive me bonkers when I read some fanfic. At times I come across it and it feels completely natural, and other times it feels like a somewhat lazy shorthand for expressing a character's admiration. Thank you!

I can't speak with certainty, because this isn't a problem that's come up enough in my own fandoms for me to really analyze it in context, but I'll give it my best guess.

Phrases like "those eyes" and "that mouth" work most effectively for me when they're a reference back to a previous description. Maybe those eyes are really exceptional. For instance, Sir Damien in The Penumbra Podcast goes on at length about Lord Arum's violet eyes to the point that "those violet eyes..." are already a recurring motif inside the work, so the fics that use the phrase are all calling back to that.

Sometimes, though, you'll get writers refer to features that don't make any sense in the situation. I've seen lots of complaints brought up about prose describing a character's "plush lips" and "fine ass" when the actor portraying that character very decidedly has neither of those things-- often completely ignoring the qualities that the character actually does have in favor of the generic "sexy" ones.

Often, "that [body part]" carries a very strong sexual connotation, particularly about what the POV character would very much like to be doing to "that mouth/those thighs/those arms/that neck/whatever". They tend to work best in my opinion when the point-of-view character has very specific fantasies/memories that are described, or at least implied, on the page. But sometimes you'll get that phrasing from a character where it doesn't make sense for them to be thinking of the other person in those terms. Maybe they're sexually inexperienced in a way where specific fantasies seem out of character, or their preferences within the narration veer very sharply in one direction but the designated body part implies otherwise (for example, the writer's gone on at length about them exclusively liking to bottom but describing the other person as if their intention is to top them-- not out of irony or subtext, but because that's a generic "attractive feature").

I think it also ought to be said that which features are emphasized, and the adjectives used to emphasize them, work best when they're deliberately chosen to build a specific effect-- is the other person's vibe elegant, or brutal, or delicate, or whatever? Picking qualities and features that reinforce that vibe can be super evocative and feel much more personal than sticking to the standards. In a recent fandom I'm in, one character is singled out as being exceptionally strong in the canon, and specifically noteworthy to the character that he's frequently shipped with. Consequently, a lot is done with his love interest thirsting over the breadth and power of the character's shoulders. Shoulders weren't sexy before, but they sure as hell are now.

TL;DR: if I had to guess at what makes that phrase fall flat, it would be a lack of specificity to the actual character, or an inconsistency with the way the people in the scene are characterized.

#writing #it's late and I've had a long day so this isn't as organized as I would hope #but it's better than my previous draft #which is saying something

[owlyflufff]

haikyu's dumpster batte is only going to be around 1 hour and 24 minutes, oh it's genuinely bokuakaover

#knowing that we're likely not going to get an ova too is painful <//3 #m sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent #but I can't help but feel bitter that an actually good series with coherence and amazing characters just gets treated like this #and series like jjk and demon slayer get to have such good adaptations? #I don't hate both series btw as I watch them myself but even I have more criticisms in their story and charas compared to hq #jjk at this rate is being carried by satosugu shippers and popularity the story honestly is slowly losing substance :'DD #and it's disappointing such a series manages to get to have a consistent adaptation vs a good and inspiring story #which is why I can't help but feel <//3 whenever ppl rant about the jjk animation cause it's better than the hq treatment TvT #don't get me started on demon slayer I have mixed feelings about that series as well but I love it for what it's worth xD #and if people say the hq fandom is being bitter or biased isn't it justifiable? #a consistent and amazing narrative gets butchered me thinks people have a right to feel the way they do #naturally the fandom is not downplaying the efforts of the animators and voice actors but we also have a right to feel the way we do #we feel the way we do out of genuine love for a series that inspired and helped us so much #it's just so unfair TvT #m terribly sorry again for ranting and dropping negativity but I feel really disheartened about this news #and not simply cause ofc we won't get the bokuaka match #but also because my favorite series doesn't deserve this #eli rambles #bokuaka #haikyu #haikyuu #haikyu!! #hq

[panharmonium]

Hi! I love your Naruto thoughts and meta posts with all my heart and I want to ask your thoughts on something that has been on my mind literally since I was 13: what do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura? I went from being a hardcore shipper when I was a teenager, to being against any romantic relationship in Naruto after finishing the anime when I was in my early twenties. Nowadays I'm very into platonic love and depictions of friendship and I think the anime's obsession with forcing the "romantic interest" curse upon the main female character robbed us of... so much. There are a few wonderful moments in the anime where Sasuke and Sakura acknowledge each other, but because she's always "the girl with the crush", her actions are so often interpret as irrational or selfish by the fandom.

Hi @riemmetric!  It's great to talk to you again! Sorry it's taken me so long to answer this; RL has been making demands of me lately and it took me way longer to finish writing this up than I wanted it to (then again, I knew from the minute I read your original ask that my reply was going to get long, so I suppose I should have predicted a delay XD)

It's funny, my sister once asked me to choose between Sasuke or Sakura for an “unpopular opinion” meme, and I ended up doing Sasuke solely because I think the negative fandom opinions about Sakura are so unhinged and divorced from the actual text that I wouldn’t even know where to start.  People are entitled to dislike whatever characters they want, obviously, but there are some fandom takes that are, for me, so obviously rooted in bad faith viewings/readings that there’s no urge in me to discuss them.  That said, since you asked, I’m happy to go into my own thoughts on this a bit, with the disclaimer for other potential readers that I only write about fandom things for my own personal enjoyment, not as a contribution to The Discourse. If you don’t like Sakura, great!  I have no interest in changing your mind. Please consider this a sincere invitation to scroll on by and go enjoy whatever parts of the fandom appeal to you.

In general terms: I love Sasuke and Sakura’s relationship as much as I love all of the relationships in Team 7.  If we’re talking about them specifically as a romantic couple, then I probably fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, because I do like them together in a post-canon (to be clear: non-Boruto) setting, after time has passed and they’ve continued to develop individually and reconnect with each other, but I also wouldn’t exactly call myself an intense “shipper,” in the sense that I have no interest in pulling things out from the text and incorrectly citing them as evidence that Sasuke has hidden romantic feelings for her during the canon period. He cares about her in the canon period, just like he cares about Naruto and Kakashi.  That’s not up for interpretation; it’s the text.  But Sasuke during the canon time period does not demonstrate specifically romantic interest in anyone.  

[A note before people who might ship Sasuke with Someone Else emerge to rail against this statement - please just scroll past and continue enjoying fandom in whatever way is most fun for you. It is cool to ship whatever fanon thing you want; I think that’s great!  But earnestly citing any loving or emotional thing Sasuke does re: various characters in this story (yes, Sakura included) as indicative of specifically romantic love isn’t supported by the text. I know there are always going to be enormous subsets of any fandom who insist that it is, and I'm certainly not going to barge into anyone else's space to complain about that (because other people having fun together is harmless and none of my business), but I'm not obligated to indulge it on my own blog, either.]

Anyway, that said - the reason why I love Sakura and Sasuke’s relationship (from here on out I’ll use “relationship” in a general, non-romantic sense) is precisely because Sakura isn’t just “the girl with the crush.” Sakura has an arc when it comes to Sasuke, and its trajectory moves in the exact opposite direction of “irrational” or “selfish.”  She specifically goes from “the girl with the crush” to “the girl who steels herself and tries to put her personal feelings for Sasuke aside for the greater good” to “the girl who knows she can’t put her feelings aside, but who also knows full well that Sasuke doesn’t reciprocate them, and who still wants to save him regardless, because he matters to her as a person and a friend.”

[I'm putting the rest of this under a cut to save everyone's dash, and also to emphasize once again that this is a personal post on my personal blog which I wrote in response to a question from a personal acquaintance, the full content of which no one is obligated to read. I am not sending this post to random strangers and forcing them to look at it. I'm not even putting it in the character tags. I'm typing it up on my own blog and putting it under a cut. If you already know that you don't like Sakura, but you still click the link/read the post and then feel an urge to comment and complain, I am going to copy-paste this disclaimer and remind you that I specifically recommended that you scroll past and go have fun with fandom in your own way. Thanks in advance for responsibly curating your own fandom experience!]

So, from the top:

1. the girl with the crush

Sakura is, obviously, completely obsessed with Sasuke at the beginning of Part 1.  She’s also deeply clueless about him and his history (bizarre though it is, the story seems to indicate that she initially doesn’t know what happened with his family, the same way young!Obito is initially clueless about Kakashi’s father).  But what I like about Sakura and Sasuke’s Part 1 relationship is how this changes over time.

The critical scene that kicks this off happens right at the beginning of the manga, when she and Sasuke are talking by that bench - she complains about Naruto and blames his behavior on him being all alone/having no family to scold him; and even says she’s jealous that he doesn’t have parents to nag him all the time.  This obviously triggers an outburst from Sasuke, who tells her she has no idea what loneliness means and that she “makes him sick”/she’s “annoying” (importantly, the exact same thing Sakura said to Naruto in anger earlier that day), which in turn prompts Sakura to reassess herself and wonder whether she’s been making Naruto feel this terrible all the time, too:

From that point on, it’s a process of her putting little pieces together.  She still has a MAJOR crush, and she still acts like a twelve year-old, but as we approach the end of Part I, Sakura actually has a more accurate grasp on Sasuke’s current state of mind than Naruto does.  Naruto is initially excited to fight Sasuke on top of the hospital, because he feels like Sasuke’s finally acknowledging him, whereas Sakura is the one who immediately recognizes that something is wrong about this situation.  She is also the one who, after this fight, is concerned that Sasuke is really unwell and might do something drastic like run off in pursuit of the power Orochimaru promised him, but when she communicates this to Naruto, he assures her that this would NEVER happen:

(Sakura isn't convinced, though, because she goes to monitor the exit out of the village anyway.)

I’m not criticizing Naruto for his response here.  I ADORE hearing him say that Sasuke is too strong to need Orochimaru, with such perfect confidence - I love seeing how much respect and admiration he has for Sasuke underneath all their fighting, because that’s the whole reason he’s always baiting Sasuke and yelling at him and claiming “you're not so great!” He looks up to Sasuke; he wants to be like Sasuke; he thinks Sasuke is awesome! (It’s that Obito @ Kakashi behavior, you know?) But the fact remains that he is clueless about what’s actually going on with Sasuke in Part 1, and he remains clueless(ly optimistic) for a long time.  

(Eg, when he catches up to Sasuke during the retrieval arc and Sasuke climbs out of that cursed seal coffin, Naruto waves at him and calls "Come on, let's go!" as if Sasuke has been successfully rescued and is now going to come running home.  Even in Part II, when Naruto hears that Sasuke killed Orochimaru, he beams and immediately says, “So he must be on his way back to the Leaf Village!”  And everyone else in the room is like, “....,” because they know better.  Naruto doesn’t yet fully understand [or doesn't want to accept] the extent to which Sasuke has willingly chosen this path, and it’s not until after Jiraiya’s death/the Pain attack/the Five Kage Summit that Naruto really starts to understand Sasuke more clearly, which is something he himself admits.)

Sakura, in Part 1, has access to more information about Sasuke - she’s there for his first dissociative monologue during the bells test, she’s there for the curse mark’s placement, she’s there for his first violent transformation in the Forest of Death - she is, in fact, the unwitting catalyst for it (“Sakura…who did this to you?”), and her compassion is the reason Sasuke is later able to overcome the curse mark’s influence - so she has a more accurate/complete picture of “how he’s doing,” for lack of a better phrase, whereas Naruto, who doesn’t know about the curse mark in the first place, is still in the dark.  This means that Sakura is able to accurately discern that Sasuke is struggling more than Naruto realizes, and specifically to predict that he’s going to run away.  

(This dynamic is then interestingly flipped in the back half of Part II, since at any point after the Five Kage Summit, Sakura doesn’t have access to extremely relevant [if currently questionable and unproven] details that would in any other circumstance inform her behavior).

Of course, just because she has more info in Part 1 doesn’t mean she has some kind of miraculous insight into Sasuke’s every thought and feeling.  There are parts of her attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village that are as clueless as any of Naruto’s assumptions, and they showcase the kind of magical thinking common to childhood - like when she says that if he stayed with her, she could give him happiness, she’d do anything for him, even help him get his revenge - this idea that she herself can do something to make him feel better, that she can love him powerfully enough to defeat his pain - obviously none of that is rooted in realism.

Is this part of her approach irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered?  Of course it is!  But it’s no more irrational and immature and inadvertently self-centered than Naruto’s stated plan to drag Sasuke back to the village even if he has to “break every bone in [his] body!” 

Hating on Sakura for her Part 1 attempt to convince Sasuke to stay in the village while simultaneously lauding Naruto for his feels like a bad faith misread of what is, to me, pretty clear narrative intention.  The story doesn’t at any point intend for us to see her begging him to stay as a selfish or conniving attempt to get something she wants.  She’s begging him to stay for the same underlying reason that Naruto is: she cares about him.  She thinks he’s making a mistake that will only cause him more pain in the end (she’s right) and she wants to make it so he feels less pain right now (she can’t.  But she doesn’t understand that/isn’t able to admit that, and she’s willing to try ANYTHING that might help).  

It’s critical that this farewell scene is set in front of that same bench from their first important confrontation - she references that day and how angry he got at her, and this time she tells him that she understands his reaction.  She’s learned things and she recognizes how insensitive she was being back then (“I know what happened to your clan, Sasuke”), even though she still can’t fully grasp all the complexities of the situation. She tells him that him blowing up at her back then helped her understand what loneliness actually meant (as opposed to her previous shallow understanding of it), and she challenges him about his choice right now: "So that's it, you're choosing the lonely path?" And when she tells him that she'll be very lonely if he leaves, we're immediately shown a panel of Sasuke thinking of both his friends, with the very clear implication that if he goes through with this, he will be lonely without them, too - that he's still struggling with the idea of leaving them, no matter how hard he tries to pretend:

Sakura at this point knows that Sasuke isn’t interested in her the way she is in him, but she still wants to give him happiness, however fantastical and immature her ideas sound to us (and, I’m sure, to him).  “I’ll do anything, even help you get your revenge/we'll have fun every day, and...and you'll be happy! I'll make sure of it!” - of course, it’s completely childish.  It’s irrational.  It’s ridiculous to think that any of this would ever be effective, but no more ridiculous than Naruto’s belief that he can simply break every bone in Sasuke’s body and keep him in the Leaf by force.

Both Naruto and Sakura are children who have a deeply oversimplified understanding of Sasuke’s situation.  They both still think they can fix him themselves.  They both think they can save him themselves.  They both think they can convince (or force) him to do what they want, what they think is in his best interests.  Both of them don’t yet understand that he has to want to come back, if it’s ever going to mean anything.  Their attempts to keep him in the village are immature and unrealistic, yes.  What they aren’t, however, is selfish, because neither Sakura nor Naruto are doing any of this with the intention of advancing their own interests.  They’re only thinking about Sasuke - how to keep Sasuke safe, how to make Sasuke happy - even when neither of them are taking an approach that will actually work.

Naruto and Sakura are children.  They’re afraid of losing somebody they care about.  Their attempts to prevent that from happening are desperate and messy and ultimately ineffective, but they are also genuinely felt and rooted in a true desire to rescue Sasuke from his pain, which - and this is the single most important thing that should impact our viewing of Part 1 - is something that Sasuke RECOGNIZES.  He doesn’t spend that agonizingly long moment bowed over Naruto’s defeated body so we can pretend he doesn’t understand that Naruto was just trying to help him.  He doesn’t take the time to murmur, “Sakura…thank you,” before laying her out carefully on a bench, just so we can discount it and pretend that he doesn’t recognize and appreciate her genuine intention to make things better for him, however clumsy that attempt might have been.

2. the greater good

If Stage 1 Sakura is "the girl with the crush," then Stage 2 Sakura is a progression to “the girl who decides to put her feelings for Sasuke aside in order to protect innocent people, including (but certainly not limited to) Naruto.”  She’s driven to this decision by interactions with Shikamaru, who all too recently had to grow up fast himself (“We're not kids anymore...we can't allow a war to break out between the Hidden Leaf and the Hidden Cloud because of Sasuke") and Sai, who risks his new friendship with Sakura and Team 7 in order to speak some hard truths and deliver one of my favorite lines in the whole story: “I don’t know what promise Naruto made to you, but it’s really no different than what was done to me.  It’s like a curse mark.”

(INCREDIBLE.  How can anybody be complaining about a season where Sai gets to say something that goes THIS HARD and Sakura LISTENS and takes DRAMATIC ACTION that actually propels the story forward in a meaningful way - )

[Okay, yeah, brief personal opinion interlude - it is just bonkers wild to me that there are people who complain about Sakura in the Five Kage Summit arc. That entire season is the greatest character arc she ever has.  Literally she has never been more interesting and dynamic than in Season 10; it’s the first time she ever gets to be as deep and fascinating as the boys; what is everybody so worked up about?  Oh, “she lied to Naruto that one time” - Sasuke joined infant-kidnapping baby-murdering human experimentation machine Orochimaru when he was twelve years old in order to (dare I say it????) selfishly pursue his personal goals and yet, somehow, we are still able to root for him.  He abandoned his friends/allies to imprisonment and death (Suigetsu and Jūgo) or outright stabbed them in the chest himself (Karin) in order to (SELFISHLY) get what he wanted, and yet, somehow, we are still able to love him, understand him, and be on his side.  Naruto is canonically not upset with Sakura about her lie after receiving context for the situation and I think we can probably take our cues from him without feeling the need to bring her up on war crimes; please calm down]

[Sorry, I just really love most of Season 10 and think it’s one of the best examples of how good this story can be when every single character gets to do something that matters (as opposed to things being all Naruto, all the time) so I get a little bit worked up over people complaining about some of the best writing Sakura ever gets.  I don’t understand what certain elements of fandom want from her. People complain about her being “useless” and not doing anything that contributes to the story, but then they complain just as much when she does finally get to act decisively and have just as complex/dynamic an inner world as the boys.  She’s “weak” for being unreasonably in love with Sasuke, but when she tries to be “strong” and put her love for him aside and eliminate him in order to protect Naruto and the rest of the world, she’s evil, because she should have been more understanding of his situation (despite the fact that she doesn’t KNOW anything about his situation).  But then when she can’t go through with killing him after all because she cares about him too much despite the things he’s done, she’s not "compassionate" or "kind" or "a good friend," she’s “weak” again. Nothing Sakura does in S10 is more wrongheaded or rash than any of the batshit, buckwild things Naruto and Sasuke have done in the past (and will continue to do in the future), but when Naruto and Sasuke have big feelings or take bold action, it makes them interesting characters, whereas Sakura can’t breathe in anyone’s direction without being minutely scrutinized for moral impurities.]  

Anyway. Back to a more measured response.  

Every single piece of development Sakura has with regard to Sasuke in this season satisfies me so much.  Her initial shock and disbelief at hearing that Sasuke had joined the Akatsuki?  Good, appropriate.  The fact that she starts to acknowledge the reality of what Sasuke’s done sooner than Naruto does?  Also extremely appropriate, very in-character for both of them.  Her taking Sai’s words to heart and deciding that the promise she asked Naruto to make when they were children is causing him to suffer and she has to relieve him of that burden?  Juicy!  AND thematically significant (promises!!!!  the burden that a promise places on a person, especially when it can't be kept - we've seen that before in this story and we'll see it again).  Her anguished pivot from wanting to protect Sasuke to realizing that she has a responsibility to protect the countless innocents who will die because of the war he’s trying to start?  HELLO THIS IS INCREDIBLE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.  Her knocking out the classmates who agreed to help her so they don’t have to share in her burden (and so the only person Naruto will hate when it’s over is her)?  BRUH.  Her being so committed and focused on her goal of saving innocents and protecting Naruto (not just from being harmed by Sasuke/the Akatsuki, but by the possibility that Naruto will someday have to hurt Sasuke himself) that she tries to take everything on by herself and walks into a confrontation that she absolutely cannot win??  INCREDIBLE.  (Literally the first time I watched this, I said, “Finally!!!  It’s Sakura’s turn to go off the rails!”  I laughed with my sister about how Kakashi isn’t even mad, because Naruto and Sasuke have been pulling stunts like this for years and Sakura was way overdue for her own meltdown.)  And then, after Kakashi intervenes in the fight - Sakura barreling back into the battle when she realizes he’s going to take on the burden of killing Sasuke himself in order to spare her and Naruto the horror - “I can’t let Kakashi-sensei bear this burden!”  I love her for that.  

And then, of course, in the end - her not being able to do hurt Sasuke after all.  Despite committing herself to the act, despite forcing herself to put her feelings for him aside, despite resolving to stop him from starting a war and killing innocent people, she can’t harm him.  She cares about him too much.  This, too, is thematically significant - think about Itachi’s “you don’t have enough hatred” - she doesn’t have enough hatred to kill someone she cares about, even if it seems like he deserves it, even if would be the right thing to do to protect others.  She can’t do it, and Sasuke almost kills her for her compassion.  

I love the dynamic this sets up between her and Sasuke, for a few reasons:

1) Personally, I think Sasuke respects Sakura much more for trying to kill him than he would have if she’d just tried to talk him out of his behavior or beg him to come home (a la their original confrontation in Part 1).  This is the first significant interaction he’s had with Sakura in years, and the fact that she does something SO contrary to his memory of her is an important demonstration of the fact that she’s not the same girl she used to be.  Sasuke spends a lot of time after his defection declaring to his old team “I’ve changed; I’m not that person anymore,” but this is one of the moments where he’s forced to acknowledge that his teammates have changed, too.  Time didn’t just stop for them when he left.  While he was turning into someone new, so were they.  They grew up without him, and his old memories of them can’t encompass the whole picture of who they are now.  

(This is a little tangential, but in general, I love the spectrum of reactions that Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi have in this sequence, and the way that all of them are ultimately messages Sasuke needs to hear.  Sasuke - who we know textually regrets what he did here, who apologizes to Sakura for it later - for “everything,” in fact - needs Naruto’s aggressively optimistic open-arms policy, yes, needs that potential, that unconditional possibility of return.  He also needs Sakura’s refusal to let him hurt her friends and start a war that will kill thousands of people, needs her surprisingly ruthless attempt to take him down; needs just as much her failure to do so, because it shows him that she still loves him too much to kill him even as she condemns him.  And he needs Kakashi’s grim line in the sand, needs someone who very possibly won't hesitate like Sakura (despite the horrifying personal cost), someone who will try to reach him but also won't let him escape and become the next generation’s Orochimaru, who won't let him cause untold suffering to untold numbers of people just because a teacher loved him too much to stop him when he had the chance. 

(And then even Kakashi chooses not to deliver a killing blow when he has the opportunity -)

(I know that in fandom people are more likely to be all, “oh, Naruto Good, everybody else Bad,” but I don’t think the narrative frames Sakura or Kakashi as “worse” than Naruto in any way.  The story goes out of its way to make it clear how desperately they don’t want to hurt Sasuke and how much they care about him.  And [this is just my interpretation, so obviously I won’t claim it as fact], I personally think that Sasuke - Sasuke, who, looking back, can see how lost he was then and how tortured he would have been if he’d gone through with many of his plans - would be grateful to Sakura and Kakashi for making an attempt to stop him when he couldn’t stop himself.)

2) On the other side of this, the fact that Sakura wasn’t able to deliver the killing blow means a lot. Sasuke was incapacitated under that bridge; he was completely at her mercy - but she stopped with the kunai an inch from his back.  She couldn’t kill him, even though she knew that he was completely willing to kill her (because he'd attempted to Chidori-assassinate her from behind just a few minutes ago).  That’s huge!  Sasuke is too out of his head right now to process this or understand it, but later, it's going to matter.  She stayed her hand.  She spared his life.  She loved him too much to hurt him, even when he’d given her every reason to take him down.  She hesitated, and he almost killed her for it, but her inability to strike him ultimately gave him yet another chance to come home, another chance to get better, another chance to have a life outside of his pain.  Despite everything, some part of her still hadn’t really given up on him, and that knowledge will matter later, when he’s finally able to acknowledge it.  

The point of all this is to say that I really have no complaints about Sakura and Sasuke’s dynamic in their S10 confrontation.  This season is the point where Sakura fully grows past her “girl with a crush” stage and into her “shinobi must make very harsh decisions” adulthood, but it never means that she doesn’t care about the person she’s trying to take down.  Her ultimate inability to deliver the killing blow remains a dangling lifeline for her relationship with Sasuke, an open door that Sasuke is able to walk through at the end of the story (literally, in fact, when Sakura opens that portal for him and saves him from Kaguya’s desert prison, and figuratively, too, when Sasuke apologizes to her).

3. she only wants to save you

The last stage in their relationship is what Sakura settles into during the war arc.  She started off Part 1 being just a girl with a crush, then tried to harden her heart and put her feelings for Sasuke aside in service of the greater good, but she was unable to actually follow through and kill him, and because of that, what she’s come to accept by the war arc is actually two things: that 1) Sasuke truly is willing to let her die if it furthers his goals, and 2) she wants to save him anyway.  

She has no intention of pursuing Sasuke romantically.  She knows full well that Sasuke isn’t interested in her.  She even knows that Sasuke isn’t really on their side (there’s a great scene where Sai questions Sakura about Sasuke’s return, and she reassures him that everything is fine, and Sai sadly thinks to himself “even I can tell your smile is fake”).  She’s well-aware that Sasuke didn’t try to help her when Madara stabbed her.  She’s well-aware that he left her to die in the lava pit.  She’s also well-aware that none of this is enough to make her stop loving him.  He doesn’t have to care about her - she still cares about him.  She still wants to help him.  She still wants to save him.

This is not hidden, hard-to-parse character development.  It’s explicitly articulated on the page:

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers!  She only wants to save you.

I’m not sure if people look at this last confrontation and unquestioningly take Sasuke at his word (as if we haven’t just read 71 volumes/watched 700 episodes showing us how how painfully distorted his thinking is), or if they stop reading/watching before the end of the scene, or if they don’t understand that Sasuke saying something doesn’t make that statement an accurate representation of reality.  The entire point of this scene is to show us how deeply mistaken Sasuke is about Sakura (and, by extension, the rest of Team 7).  He’s locked into a false pattern of thinking.  His single-minded focus on revenge and destruction has blinded him to the unconditional love his friends feel for him; he’s become so accustomed to using others and being used that he can’t understand or accept that someone would care about him without needing a reason, without needing him to love them back, without needing to receive something from him in exchange.

Sakura’s not trying or wanting to make you hers!  She only wants to save you.

Sasuke matters to Sakura as more than a love interest.  He always has.  She does love him romantically, yes, but she doesn’t only love him romantically, and her desire to help him is not and has never been contingent on him returning her feelings, romantically or otherwise.  Sasuke isn’t able to acknowledge that in this scene, but that doesn’t mean we’re supposed to just sit back and agree with his warped perspective.  Kakashi is the one who’s explicitly positioned as the voice of the narrative here.  We, as the audience, are supposed to recognize that Kakashi is the one telling us the truth.

[tangential thing 1: You don’t have to love Sakura's last plea to Sasuke here. It’s not my favorite, either - the best part, other than Kakashi’s speech at the end, is the moment after Kakashi collapses when Sakura’s expression changes from pained uncertainty to pure rage, when she grits her teeth together - when I first saw that, I almost leapt out of my seat like “Oh my god.  She’s finally going to let him have it.  It’s finally happening - ”  I wanted that so badly, and I still think it would have been a more effective writing choice for Sakura’s last words to lean more into her anger at the suffering Sasuke is causing all of them (himself included!) and less into yet another of Kishimoto’s “let me have Sakura articulate what a shame it is that she can’t do as much as Naruto despite the fact that I literally just went through a major reveal sequence in the war to show that she’s caught up to the boys; I can’t make up my mind about whether I want her to progress or not” - it’s extremely frustrating (and it's something he does at the very end of the S10 Team 7 reunion, too, which is the ONLY moment of S10 that falls flat for me).  But at the same time, even if there are ways this sequence could be more satisfying, it doesn’t change the fact that her plea to him is not remotely motivated by a desire to be with him romantically and not anything to condemn her for.]

[tangential thing 2: I do like how she remembers that moment when Sasuke says “Thank you.”  That panel precedes her saying “If there’s even a tiny corner of your heart that thinks about me…” (which I’m sure is one of the things that people like to criticize about this scene, aka “oh she’s sooooo self-centered” etc), but that particular line of dialogue is preceded by that particular flashback panel for a reason: Sakura knows that Sasuke DOES think about her.  He thinks about all of them.  Sakura remembers that “thank you,” and it reminds her that despite everything Sasuke has done and said since, despite all evidence to the contrary, she knows in her bones that his expression of gratitude back then was genuine.  He cared about her once.  He cared about all of them.  She’s trying to reach the part of him that still does, if it exists.]

[tangential thing 3: The fact that Kakashi says “she suffers from loving you,” and it triggers Sasuke to remember his own family - thinking about how much he suffered (and still suffers) from loving them - “Perhaps…those are the ties to a failed past” - the idea that it’s not worth it to have bonds if it means you suffer this much…that it’s too difficult, it’s too painful, and if Sakura and the rest of Team 7 were smarter they would just give it up (all Sasuke knows how to do now is sever potential bonds before they can hurt him; so why aren’t Sakura and the rest of his teammates doing that, why can’t they let it go, why are they making this so hard - ) << yeah, he clearly doesn't care about her/them at all.]

4. the shadow of my family

This has all been a really long way to answer the original question, but the short response to “What do you think about the relationship between Sasuke and Sakura?” is “I really care about it,” just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Naruto, just like I really care about the relationship between Sasuke and Kakashi. And I don’t think the story ever asks me to choose between them.

I’m not sure whether it’s the impact of Boruto-era “canon” that gets in the way of other people approaching things this way (I don’t consider sequel material when I evaluate the original story), or if it’s Kishimoto’s frequent disinterest in/disrespect towards female characters, which yes, does sometimes make it harder, or if it's a shipping thing (bane of my existence), or some combination of factors, but for me, taking one member of Team 7 out of the equation hobbles the rest of the story.  I can’t read/watch Naruto while hating one of the protagonists and loving the other three.  It doesn’t work like that for me.  The story wasn’t written that way, and there’s nothing in the text that would cause me to receive it that way.

That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with disliking one of the main foursome (or any character, for that matter) - obviously we're all going to have different preferences, and everyone is free to enjoy or reject whatever parts of a story they want, or to like or dislike whatever characters they want. I know that some people have more fun disregarding canon and doing their own thing, which is fine.  My own personal zone of enjoyment comes from receiving the story as closely to how I think it was intended to be read as I can, and personally, when I look at this particular story, what I see is that all the members of Team 7 clearly demonstrate their love for Sasuke in ways that he himself later recognizes and acknowledges. All of them are driven by their desire to save him and their unwillingness to hurt him. All of them make repeated choices to chase after him when he runs away, to trust him when he hasn't exactly earned it, to give him another chance when he doesn't appear to deserve it. ALL of them, not just Naruto, do these things multiple times throughout the story, and Sasuke owes his life (and thus his eventual recovery) to ALL of them, many times over. Kakashi disobeys Hokage-elect Danzō and breaks the law to negotiate for Sasuke's life with a foreign head of state. Sakura and Kakashi both have opportunities to kill Sasuke in the Land of Iron, and they choose to spare him instead. Kakashi stops Sasuke from killing his only friends at two different points in the story, which would have been a mistake Sasuke couldn't have recovered from. Sasuke would have died in Kaguya's desert dimension if Sakura hadn't saved him (Sakura, who knew that Sasuke wasn't even truly on her side yet, who knew he'd abandoned her for dead multiple times already that day). Kaguya's bone bullet would have killed Sasuke too, if Kakashi, with his intention to die in Sasuke's place, hadn't leapt in front of it (Kakashi, who also knew that Sasuke wasn't fully on their side yet, who also knew that Sasuke had abandoned him for dead earlier that day). Sasuke and Naruto would have BOTH died in the Final Valley if Sakura and a severely injured Kakashi hadn't chased after them to heal their injuries.

Remove any one member of Team 7, and Sasuke never makes it home. Without the combined efforts of all three of his teammates, he doesn't survive.  That’s the way it should be, thematically, for a story whose first and most foundational premise was the importance of teamwork, and since Sakura was just as essential to that framework as everyone else, I’m just as invested in her relationship with Sasuke as I am in his relationship with everyone else.  You can’t remove one leg from a four-legged stool without damaging the integrity of the entire structure, and for me, discounting any single member of Team 7 irreparably damages the integrity of the entire story. 

TL;DR: I love all of the Team 7 relationships, including Sakura and Sasuke's, because despite what some segments of fandom seem to believe, the text of the story never gives me any reason not to.

#naruto #meta #replies #anyway that's that! hopefully that is a helpful answer #thank you for the question! i honestly don't think i would have ever gotten around to writing about this if i hadn't been directly asked #i love talking about the stories i enjoy (obviously; we all do; that's why we're here) #but i'm usually ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ about responding to takes that blatantly misread the narrative to justify hating a particular character or ship #mostly because a) it's whatever. as long as people mind their own business and leave me to enjoy myself they can do what they want #and b) some opinions are so divorced from the actual text that they're not worth discussing #like. what's the point of responding to random internet posts saying that sakura was selfishly pursuing sasuke as a lover the entire time #when that is textually and provably not the case? #if you're that committed to experiencing things in direct contradiction to what the narrative is asking of us then just go ahead #is it mildly annoying to me? sure. but so are lots of things and it's better to just let stuff go #like - i initially planned to take this piece of meta all the way up through sakura and sasuke's last scene together #the one where he tells her 'maybe next time' and finally reclaims and redefines itachi's forehead tap (INCREDIBLE. THIS SCENE.) #but ultimately i changed my mind because everything i wrote for that last section was coming out too harsh #i generally prefer to talk about fandom stuff in a chill/friendly approachable way #but i kept thinking about the most obscenely & disrespectfully inaccurate read of that scene i'd ever seen #and i couldn't figure out how to talk about it in a non-scathing way #that scene and the one where naruto gives sasuke's headband back are the ONLY well-written things about the finale of naruto #they are SO perfectly constructed and i can't respond to people slandering either one without feeling an urge to kill #so i just deleted it. partially because again - this is fandom; it's not that serious; people can do what they want #but also because i know i get extra frustrated about people picking over the text and plucking out isolated bits and pieces #to contort into blatantly misinterpreted mutant shapes that 'confirm' whatever pre-existing judgments or ships they had #instead of experiencing the story as a cohesive whole & keeping in mind the greater context of what it's always been trying to communicate #people on this website say 'we all interpret things differently :)' as if it means no one can ever be wrong about what a text is saying #newsflash: not all interpretations of a text are valid. things can't in fact mean whatever you want them to mean. #the ***story*** persists and exists even if the author is dead to you #if you choose to ignore that then that's fine; it's just fandom; who cares. but i'm not going to pretend you're 'analyzing' anything. #(ok now i'm really done. you can see why i deleted this section XD)

[nostalgia-tblr]

It's time for me to admit something.

I am still a bit confused about how back in the beginning of the Loki series Mobius is introduced to us as "special[ising] in the pursuit of dangerous Variants." But like. That doesn't seem to be a thing that the TVA really... do? They mostly seem to spot nexus events and pop to the new branch and prune it, bringing back the person who caused that nexus event to give them a show-trial and then prune them too.

There's no reason they can't do more than one thing, but what exactly are "dangerous variants"? From the TVA perspective they're all equally troublesome, and they'll be picked up as soon as they do something 'wrong', and the TVA/HWR don't actually care about the moral value or otherwise of that 'wrong' thing. Have I got that right?

They're chasing Sylvie but a) she's targeting the TVA themselves and b) she's got a means to travel from one timeline to another, which she got from the TVA and unless those get stolen a lot..

I'm willing to just roll with it anyway if it doesn't really fit but what am I missing here? EXPLAIN. (pls?)

#loki series #this has been bothering me for a while but nobody else ever asks about it so i assume i've just missed some crucial info here? #and so to me it's been like the Dangerous Variants stuff is a leftover from some earlier draft of the story? #one of what i consider the Fandom Misconceptions is the idea that the TVA/Mobius actually care that TVA!Loki's been a bad boy. #but they don't! he was *supposed* to be a bad boy so actually he wasn't doing anything wrong as they'd see it (until he ran off) #the guilt-tripping clip-show is just to break *this* Loki and tame him enough that they can use him to catch the *other* Loki #but then even with this i am at odds with much of the fandom? who do see mobius as trying to help Loki from the outset #but like... the TVA are not in the business of redemption arcs! what does mobius plan to do if they do catch the Bad Variant together? #what great reward lies in wait for the now-surplus Loki he brought in to catch the one they were actually having problems with? #because i suspect very much that the longer-term plan for TVA!Loki involved a nice euphemistic word like “pruning” #what's going on what am i missing why am i over here watching a series that seems to be far more fucked-up than other peoples?

[maddy-ferguson]

women will literally accuse women and esp lesbian circles of "not unpacking ""man-hating""" alleged ""misandry" sweetie xo" getting offended ppl aren't appropriately uplifting how "men are amazing and awesome and attractive and i won't be shamed for thinking so" as if appreciating men is a real counter opinion than blame whatever gave women of every sexuality instance to be jaded weary cautious and tired and who'll complain every now and then and continue on with her life until she dies putting up with patriarchy. just welcome to the "woke" internet where misogyny's over and "man-hate" "shamed for not hating men" is worth springing to defences for

yeah i've only seen people talk like men's rights activists and think they're being unbelievably progressive on tumblr it's kind of fascinating. like i can see how seeing people hate on men could mess with people and stuff but you can't demand men appreciation posts that's literally the whole world outside of idk your tumblr dash (or even on your tumblr dash because fandom misogyny from people who think they're not misogynistic at all is really something). men get praised for "babysitting" their own kids like be serious? it's very let men be masculine

i don't think being like men are soooo gross and we hate them is actually constructive and it can definitely veer into transphobia (you'll always be a man/"a male" and thus a danger to women/why would you ever want to become a man they're the enemy and the bane of society etc) and homophobia relatively quickly?

but the way people ON TUMBLR ""combat that"" is often so off to me like if the most basic feminist principles offend you then i'm not really sure where to go from here. i remember seeing a post that was like "men aren't your enemy. they're your friend/brother/father/colleague/neighbor" with a lot of notes and like i don't know how to tell you this but that's literally who's most likely to harm a woman, the men she knows?😭 and obviously not every system of oppression is exactly the same but would you say the same thing to someone criticizing white people like...just very weird

i think women who are attracted to men and dating them making jokes about how they only tolerate being attracted to men because they have no choice and especially the whole i'm bi so i love every woman and only find 1 in a 1000 men attractive (very often said while in a relationship with a man) thing is obnoxious and annoying for like everyone who has to hear it lmao but also when women who date men make jokes about it (not about them being ugly or unattractive or whatever but about them being bad partners in general) it's like. what else are they going to do like you said they're gonna endure patriarchy for the rest of their lives and as girlfriends/wives/mothers they go through the most it's very bleak? idk. it's not like you can date a better man yourself out of patriarchy

of course men aren't a all as bad as the worst guy you can imagine and they're not all out to get you or whatever but saying things like "men don't all benefit from the patriarchy rich men benefit from the patriarchy but jake, 23, is not oppressing you" is like. kind of insane. jake, 14, was oppressing me like have you never interacted with boys in school😭 and it's not like it was entirely their fault we all have to outgrow misogyny it's just you know society etc but some of them never outgrow it lmao and just...the takes you see on feminism on tumblr are astounding i hate it here

#and like i do think that young guys who feel bad about themselves only having people who make them feel worse and who actively make them #worse like incels and idk youtube algorithms to turn to is a problem but like. again it's the same thing as white people who feel bad about #being white to me in a way like are women and GIRLS supposed to coddle them and say it's gonna be okay you're great even when they're #like actually harming them by being misogynistic to them? that's already what they're taught to do always #the notes on that male loneliness epidemic post i reblogged a few weeks ago still haunt me like OH MY GOD #and if you think misogyny isn't as prevalent anymore you're very naive. and probably misogynistic yourself #i'm not even sure young men being more feminist is true (well it's probably true when you compare it to like the 50s) but even #when men ARE like yeah women shouldn't have to do everything i can help with chores (the use of the word help is already a red flag lmao) #when you look at what they actually do they still do way less like i don't have links because these are tags on a tumblr ask but i read #somewhere that men think chores are 50/50 when they're only doing like 30% of the work? like it just seems hopeless #sometimes i'm happy and then i think about the mental load #sorry for not uplifting men 24/7 you can just hang out on the steve harrington tag or something there's actually a lot of people doing that #when someone said um does the ronance fandom not seem terfy to you...because of a post that was like can the lesbian ship ronance #be about the lesbian ship ronance not about steve A MAN #like you can't make this up #i meant it when i said the average tumblr user would benefit from being exposed to more misogyny like i swear they forget it's even a thing #like obviously they wouldn't BENEFIT from it lmao but their posts wouldn't be as dumb and that would benefit me�� #ask

[sysig]

Reading moodboard #84430940 (Patreon)

#Doodles #I wonder what this is in reference to lol - could be anything really! #Bit funny actually - I was reading something else in overlap at the time - a fic from another fandom though it ended up not being for me #Different authors just speak to different people! It was fun to come back to something familiar and realize Just how much I appreciate it ah #Novel and familiar! My very favourite <3 And of course it was a wonderful experience on top of that hehe ♪♫ #Numbers lol - I really have done way too much age headcanon math pfft #I just love timelines! And even if the hints aren't exact they /are/ hints and I'm going to use them!! #The numbers that are established are such fun markers - and using characterization as hints towards how many years have passed! Ah! ♪ #Like how it's definitely possible that Max took a two year but considering his family he was probably pushed to do a four year #There's no confirmation either way but it's just so fun to consider what they'd do based on how they're written! #These are the kind of written math problems I enjoy hehe #I was being a bit self-deprecating for that doodle actually tho lol - art mimics life and all that pfft #Also confirmation of him being a Lit Major ❤️💕💖💞💗 Small details give me big love you must understand this lol #As evidenced lol ♪ Adding to my playlist definitely didn't help it very strongly upgraded to Big Love for like a week straight lol #Terrible ♪ Couldn't stand it <3 Genuinely painful ♫ #Lol - ''finding'' more - it's what had my blood on fire! I'm so grateful for mirrors #Anyone who's been following me for a while knows I have this whole thing about Legacy and what you leave behind and the internet in general #That the internet is forever except when it's not - that plenty of things get deleted or lost etc. etc. and it makes me very sad :( #So seeing that there was an in-built preservation - it only saved Some things but anything saved is precious!! It made me very happy <3 #And then finishing off 💔💕 Beautifully heartbreaking ah #Even skim-reading later made me cry again! It's deeply affecting hhh #Another experience I'm so happy to be able to have ♥ Another tally on the wall haha <3

[angorwhosebabyisthis]

analyzing hermes, emet-selch, the ancients and ascians, how they're written, and the fandom's reaction to them be like hm. emet-selch's role in this fuckery is compounded by the fact that his backstory as a genocide survivor is incongruous with his ruling a huge genocidal colonialist world power in the present da [ANTISEMITISM BLAST]

#ffxiv #ffxiv hermes #emet-selch #i have Posts in Me to write up about the subject but like you can maybe immediately start connecting some dots here lmao #hermes and the ancients lie at the intersection of A Lot of Shit That is Very Important to Me #the vast majority of it having to do with gaslighting in various different forms #one of those posts is going into how his story reminds me eerily of what Questioning Things in an abusive evangelical environment is like #and how the fandom instantly jumping straight to OH SO YOU THINK THE ANCIENTS SHOULD HAVE BEEN GENOCIDED IS THAT IT #YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE INFANTILIZED AND CIVILIZED BY THE SUPERIOR MORALS OF YOUR OWN CULTURE IS THAT IT #and start throwing around words like 'sympathizer'; if you say 'hermes was right about some shit actually' #'what we see of the ancients' society is full of inexcusably horrific shit which does not get a pass for ~different values~' #smacks strongly to me of evangelical crybullying in the name of Cultural Sensitivity #and how people use 'well it's not my business what other cultures think is right or wrong' as an excuse to throw up their hands and #disengage from actually learning about or supporting the people in those cultures who know and are working within it to fight bigotry #amazingly enough 'racism and misogyny and queerphobia are bad' is not an idea exclusive to western cultures lmfao #your job if you engage is to seek out those people--across the spectrum of opinions and relationships to their culture's issues! #they're not a monolith!--and spread that information; and listen to what they ask of you when they tell you what kind of help they need #but that's complicated; and takes time and care and thought and effort and connecting to marginalized people #talking over activists and victims of the societal issues they live with; and telling them they're the same as colonizers; is easy-peasy #like i cannot stress enough here that hermes Is an Ancient. He Lives Here. He Knows His Society and Thinks About It a Lot #He Wants to Salvage It and is Specifically Fucked Up About Feeling Like He Can't Trust People Around Him for Input #WoL doesn't barge in and start telling the ancients what's what; they find the person who Cares and back him up that he's not crazy or alon #anyway there's a lot here but it is uh. a Lot. the ways in which the game blends up christianity and judaism here. #including the fact that between the two; the default cultural values and dynamics align more with christian associations of Conformity #(the game is by japanese creators and i feel like that's A Factor too; but there are Eerily Accurate evangelical things going on here) #and people cape for the ones who are Most Evangelical about it + the one whose Compelling Aspects are all antisemitic as fuck tropes #whereas the brown guy who grapples with his faith and worldview; who questions and challenges and argues with others in his ethnoreligion #and tries to look for perspective and deeper meaning + Improve Society Somewhat; gets torn apart in the worst faith possible by the fandom #ffxivtag #warning: worm grass

[crown-ov-horns]

I was looking through my notes for Good Omens fanfiction, and realized almost every damn story includes Crowley having a baby.

There's the one where Heaven and Hell decide to use an angel baby carried by a demon as a diplomatic tool, leading into Crowley being protected by Michael, and them falling in love.

There's the one where she leaves her baby with Anathema and disappears, which triggers all the following events - from the search, to Aziraphale's trial, and everything else.

There's the one where she has to supply the new Antichrist, which leads to her and Lucifer falling in love, and her being crowned the Queen of Hell. (Well, this one is really two stories set in different timelines, in the second one the "baby" is like 27)

In the one inspired by a dream, she does have a baby eventually, but that's far from the worst thing that happens to her. Gabriel's treatment of her after is... How the Hell will I write this damn thing if I can't even think about it.

There's no baby in the one where she gets tortured with diluted holy water.

I see I have no storyline with male Crowley just yet... Fine, that's not true. I do have some thoughts for Crowley x Fem!Lucifer... It could include a new Antichrist, too. And, Crowley wouldn't be the pregnant one for once. But, dealing with pregnant Lucifer would probably be even scarier.

#diary pages #writing journal #fanfiction writer #ao3 writer #good omens fanfiction #good omens fandom #crowley #good omens crowley #lady crowley #fem!crowley #writers on tumblr #writer life #ffs what's with me and torturing miss/mr. snake #she's either pregnant or she's in some horrible situation or actually it's both #yes i feel damn guilty for doing that but i can't help it #in first two bullet points the dad is aziraphale but he screws up (without even knowing it) so michael steps in... #in the first one and not immediately as a love interest at first just as a protector #don't worry she's in on using the kid for politics and crowley know's there's drama #the second i'd rather not spoil because of the detective/investigation plot #hey but she chose michael herself she was supposed to be with hastur #in the antichrist one all is obvious and honestly it's one of those “good for her” stories for crowley #but in the time jump she is kind of riddled with worry for maxine fearing she'll burn out and so on #grr the dream storyline... the dad is gabriel and don't worry in the end she ditches him i can spoil that this story is so heavy #this story is the ugly crowing jewel of my frustration with crowley saving aziraphale over and over again #what she does to protect him here almost ends up killing her or breaking her it's... seriously no idea how i'll write it #i'm also worried people will think i'm romanticising it when it's supposed to leave the reader sickened like i am #no comment on the holy water thing rn it's a simple hurtfic that develops into a survivor - the previous one is survivor in the end too #i haven't given too much thought for the crowley/f!lucifer but it should be good #fr hell would be so frustrated she chose this moron as her king consort but could do nothing about it #her pregnant would be SCARY - she's terrifying already... well terrifying and to die for