#and what ‘dying’ really means

[aroanthy]

i love how fraught and complicated discourse around various utena characters ‘dying’ is when anthy is literally stabbed to death eternally by a million swords imbued with human hatred. and then utena gets stabbed to death by them also. like. ‘death’ is incredibly interesting in rgu because most of the time it’s this ambiguous figurative thing that has interesting implications re: ohtori as a closed-off world one can escape. we are all trapped in our coffins. mamiya is the only named character with a grave. nemuro memorial hall functions as one all the same. ruka is implied to have died in the hospital— was he dead all along? who was the boy we saw for these two episodes? is this dead boy the same boy, or is this just another coincidence from the shadow girls, cutting like a knife? it’s heavily implied that akio and anthy murder kanae by poisoning her, adding to the previous implication that they were poisoning mr ohtori too, but there are no perceptible consequences of this. kanae’s absence is not felt. she’s fed an apple slice. what happens to the bodies? we know what happened to the 100 boys, but what about everyone else? and so on and so forth. ‘death’ is a tricky thing in utena, i think it’s constantly functioning on figurative and literal levels in very different ways for very different purposes. dios died. dios was dying. dios didn’t die. he grew up. etc etc

#what am i trying to say here? #idk! think about all of the pieces you have #dying is complicated in ohtori in countless different ways #and i find it boring to see so much ‘this character is dead and that’s it’ stuff #when death is used farrrrrrr more figuratively than some ppl give credit for #and i think the movie too does wonderful things with death #and what ‘dying’ really means #being disbelieved. being forgotten. being rejected. haunting despite this #much more interesting to think about wrt commentary on abusive relationships than it is #to think about what?? oh me when my brother died but plot twist he’s alive and can walk on this road all cool. like????? #akio doesn’t have the power to make himself revenant #he THINKS he does and he absolutely has power when he’s alive and he imbues that power with such meaning that it does live on after him #but ANTHY. anthy is the one struggling with herself and her feelings and the impact of trauma and abuse (that power!!) in aou #he’s dead? he died? she brought him back through her memories? or she’s left him (metaphorical death) and he’s haunting her?? #all such interesting interpretations #i haven’t mentioned touga bc i don’t have the energy today. if dead and just illusion of others memories then why active. why awful #like in aou akio is only Obviously scummy when he’s alive. his illusory self is based upon anthy’s love for him #if anime!touga is nothing more than nanami/whoever’s memories of him before he died……. why does he actively choose to suck again and again #like nanami wouldn’t do that. unless it was meant to be a subconscious thing like ooo he’s dead all along but that’s not what her arc is #it’s not ‘he’s been dead all along’ literally or figuratively. it’s ‘he’s unsafe and i don’t want him’ #sigh. once again i am asking people to think about nanami and touga’s dynamic through touga’s eyes #it’s so interesting to me how people forget to consider his motivations or feelings on ANYTHING #like sure his motivations and feelings are scummy but they’re interesting!!!!! they intrigue me!!!! #compel me even #anyway ignore how i said i didn’t have the energy for this and then typed it all out anyway #dais.txt

[collieii]

someone probably said this already but in spiderverse i think it's interesting how when pavitr was first introduced everyone thought something bad was gonna happen to him bc of how confident and optimistic he was. and then in the actual movie we see that something bad was supposed to happen to him (police chief dying!) but it doesn't! miles stops it! and miguel berates miles for this, says it's going to cause the universe to collapse or whatever.

there's this idea that tragedy is inherent to spidermans growth, and while it's true that some spiderpeople learn important lessons through loss, no one stops to ask, is it really necessary? yeah, maybe the chief was supposed to die. but why does spiderman have to be formed through tragedy? why do we (as heroes) have to let people die? pavitr didn't lose anyone, and he's still a good spiderman! maybe, if he doesn't suffer, he'll end up better off for it!

so while miguel is arguing for all this big picture stuff about saving the multiverse he's lost sight of what it really means to be a spiderman, he's not looking out for the real individual people. yeah it's just one person who would die, but that one person means something to someone. shrugging and saying "stuff just sucks sometimes, we can't do anything about it" is the opposite of what superheroes do. pretty obviously, miles arc is also a reflection of the struggles people face in real life, working within unequal systems, where it's easy to shrug and say "that's just the way it is" and not ask "but why does it need be this way? can't we do something about it?"

miguel is arguing that you can't have your cake and eat it too. presumably, miles and co. are going to find a way to get around that and change things for the better (and maybe that's why miles has that line about two cakes in the advisors office!)

#across the spiderverse #across the spider verse spoilers #break from my regularly scheduled trigun posting for spider posting #i'm actually kinda eh on the idea of the canon and police chiefs dying it is not my favorite plot point #but like any sane person i love spiderverse so #actually still think i like the first one more but wroaw much to think about #spiderverse #atsv #.lieii #i only watched the movie once so hopefully this is all accurate #i feel like this is all really obvious my point was like #pavitr being an example of a spiderperson who is still successful without going through all these awful things #and you think despite all this stuff about the multiverse how does he feel about the chief being saved? hes probably rly grateful right? #i mean maybe something terrible will happen to him in the next movie but. yk what im saying #.lieii txt

[bacchuschucklefuck]

while teen while goblin while aroace while injured while doing your best

#fantasy high junior year #fhjy #riz gukgak #figueroth faeth #sklonda gukgak #dimension 20 #this. mmmmhhh this is so. I did Not know how to draw this really. #I am very normal about riz (<- lying) #it's a brennan-dm d20 campaign the bad guy is always capitalism (I am saying this with clenched teeth) #riz out of all of them being aroace fucks with me SO bad. bc its also established that elmsville specifically and probably the #majority of solace is not. made for goblins. and that becomes sklonda being worked to the bone and pok dying on the job #and riz spending all his time trying to keep his friends together. maybe to the point of it being injurous #like. do u get what I mean. its an economy of time it takes your time it eats up your time #not just the gukgaks but everyone you have to spend time to get to live and you don't have a lot of time left in a day #and you have to spend it carefully. you have to prioritize #you're somewhere without an established community and companionship is bought with your time spent working #this place doesn't take care of you. at the end of the day who do you have who'd prioritize you. do you understand me #the evolved aroace loathing where if your friends and family are granted more time nobody would have to choose. we live in a society #holds ur hand we live in a society. idk if Im making any sense #anyway . uhhh riz is my favourite that's my statement thank you for listening. au revoir

[hellenhighwater]

How do you have the energy to have so many cool creative things on the go at once? What keeps you going?

Well, I've got the winning combo of ADHD and insomnia, so I'm usually hyperfocused on something into the wee hours.

But also....I want to? And I only kind of get a choice about it. I may sometimes neglect the dishes in the sink but it's a rare week that I'm not so taken by some idea that I won't be able to sleep until I've at least sketched it out, or priced out the materials, or done some research on it to move towards the point where I can start fabrication. And it's so rewarding. It's nice that most of what I'm making I do just for fun, so if I lose interest in something it's okay if it sits at the wayside for a while, and I only have to make the things I'm really excited about.

It's not ADHD without executive dysfunction, as I semi-regularly get tagged. It's more like my executives were supposed to be running a Fortune 500 company but instead they found the crayons and we are making the loveliest mural on the boardroom walls.

#yes i know that's not really what the term means #but still #i am not always getting the laundry done but i HAVE to paint #i am afflicted with has to make little guys disease #i dont mind that tag #but let me tell you: that dys sure is functioning.

[skrunksthatwunk]

thinking about how eiji's a pole vaulter and how ash talks about eiji "flying" and how eiji's associated with bird imagery and how eiji's free (unlike ash) and how eiji comes in on a plane and leaves on a plane and how ash cannot fly, ash cannot be free, how nyc is ash's prison, and how ash is the leopard who dies climbing the mountain, unable to live at such elevation, how he was trying to reach the sky and be free but was always stuck to the earth, how he chose to die instead of climbing back down, how he chose to die where he could see the sky and hope and freedom almost like a bird with eiji's letter right in front of him rather than letting everything go wrong and ruin it once again, how eiji's a failed pole vaulter anyway, how a bad fall ruined his career and grounded him (physically and emotionally), how it took flying to america and meeting ash and needing to save him and skip for him to try flying again, how he landed hard and harsh and still the thought of that escape compelled ash to protect eiji at all costs because if he could fly that means something to him, even if he doesn't think he can fly, how eiji is the manifestation of his hope and how when he breaks and asks eiji to stay with him a while he folds himself over his legs and weighs him down and traps him and grounds him, how ash fights like hell to keep eiji alive not because he thinks he can be like him (hopeful, flying, innocent), but because he makes him forget the gravity of his situation, and so he can see eiji fly again. how he wants to see him escape. how eiji is a bird and ash is a wildcat and how ash never once saw eiji as prey. how eiji never saw ash as a predator. how it is eiji's naivete that first endears ash to him, how it is his freedom and flight and removal from darkness and his ability to leave that darkness that really roots eiji in ash's blood as something essential to him keeping on living in this hell of nyc. how it is that distance from the violence and that hope for the future that ash chooses to surround himself in as he dies. how ash dies in a dream because he feels more than anything that he can't fly like eiji, that he can never leave. how his violence is a part of him and will be forever, how it weighs him down. how he wants to enjoy the view from the mountainside rather than looking up from the ground below. as if they can both fly. as if he is with him up there and not grounded. eye-to-eye with what he can't have, seeing eiji's homeland: the sky. how he dies trying to reach the top because he couldn't take retreating and trying again. how ash, tired and tired and tired and convinced it will go on forever if he crawls back down the mountain, chooses to close his life deluged in eiji, in eiji's insistence that they can fly together, in eiji's hope for him and for them, in eiji's beautiful dream. how ash dies without trying to realize that dream. how ash, in dying, destroys it.

#banana fish spoilers #I'M HAVING A FUCKING MOMENT #mutual reblogged exactly one (1) piece of ash fanart and sent me on A Multiple Hour Long Thing and now im rewatching it lol #yes i am only on episode 2 yes i am still going to write big long analysis posts ANYWAY #whatever hope this makes sense. anyway #banana fish #okumura eiji #ash lynx #asheiji #hhhhh i can't believe i've only watched this twice in like what 5.5 years?? sheesh #anywayyyyyyy i care about them a lot ok. god #and yes i DO kinda have beef with the decision to kill ash off at the end but it really does say so much About his character #that he chose to die in the way that he did even though he's been throwing his life away since episode 1 #dying in peace in comfort in solitude rather than in some chaotic battlefield.... ough...... in the peace eiji alone could give him..... #anywayss i relate to ash a little more than i should so. this one's for us cool guy bottoms up #edit i uh.... i forgot it was a leopard.... in the story..... but whatever it doesn't really affect the symbolic meaning it's just embarras #ing that i forgot >;/

[satorugojoswiife]

don't think or talk about gojo for one (1) day challenge (FAILED)

#i really miss him and started thinking too much about 236 again 😭 #also been thinking since 251 leaks dropped and #im really sad about megumi :( #i really hope he bounces back and ends up being okay in the end #because it would actually be such an unsatisfying character arc if #the character thats spent nearly the entire story always trying to basically throw his life away #ends up actually dying in the end :( #like i want him to get to find a reason to keep going and live life #but i mean gege and unfufilling character arcs kinda be going hand in hand recently (imo) #ofc its not all bad and there are some good ones!! #but yeah....i dont wanna be too negative tho!! like its not all finished #so who knows what could still happen #fie.txt

[willowser]

okay but he finds us right… *laughs nervously* RIGHT?!?!

the first 48 hours in a missing person's case are the most crucial.

searches have to be started and evidence has to be secured and information has to be gathered. after that, people start—forgetting things. important things. little details that could mean your life or death. the station has already opened back up by now, and whatever daily foot traffic they see has already stamped what's left of you into the pavement. you could be out of the country for all katsuki knows. by the third day without water, organs start to deteriorate.

chances of finding a survivor begin to greatly decrease; you stop looking for a person, and you start looking for a body.

deku and kirishima—everyone, really—have been kind enough not to change mission status from rescue to recovery, and katsuki can't tell if that's for better or for worse.

#god HE'S really deteriorating now #an absolute SHELL #thinking about you 🥺 if you're alive and scared and slowly dying 🥺 or if you're already at the bottom of a lake somewhere 🥺 #the only thing that keeps him going is wondering at what point between getting taken and your final moments did you give up hope 🥺 #that he was coming 🥺 #it's the ONLY thing getting him off his ass 🥺 #hehe i am being Mean >:3c #✿ ask willow #✿ thoughts: bakugou #✿ theme: y/n napped

[u5an5]

Theory: The Clone X was not Cody like some people think or even Fives (I know he's been dead for a very long time but so was Boba Fett and look where we are. Plus, Echo was supposed to be certainly dead too; making him Winter Soldier-esque storyline wouldn't be that surprising) or not even Slick.

((Also, now that we've seen his face devoid of any tattoos or scars I think first two takes are definitely not applicable anymore; they wouldn't put that much effort to make him unrecognizable))

Back to the point: In my opinion, The Clone X was none other than...

Fox.

Now let me explain.

Who else, other than X, was loyal to the law and justice dictated by it over any moral or ethic code?

Fox.

Who else was portrayed with such single-minded focus on hunting down traitors of the government he served, regardless of what it was?

Fox.

Who else could know not only Coruscant so well but also identify Rex like they knew each other?

He already was a remarkably successful tracker of traitors, why not make him more efficient by pointing them out for him?

Good soldiers follow orders, after all.

#clone assassin #commander fox #star wars tbb #i know that hes got killed really early after Order in comics but i would honestly prefer him to die this way #the bad batch spoilers #commander cody #arc trooper fives #tcw slick #cc 1010 #star wars #sw tbb #sw the bad batch #the bad batch season 3 #tbb theory #we dont even know for sure how he looks like cause in one moment we see corries without helmets all of them have standard paintjob #idk if its just animation error but because of it we cant be 100% sure fox ever regreted it without him being shown grieving with rest #hes just taking a breath when fives is dying and personaly i see it more as him rolling his eyes that rex is being mushy with traitor #but there are 3 clones behind fox when hes shown and then the one taking off his helmet stands beside 2 others so it may actualy be it??? #and if he DOES regret it imo is more in 'shame i had to do it' rather than 'shame i did it' way if you know what i mean #hes just doing his job and hes GOOD at it. not his fault that him being competent is bad for the good guys #my point is: outside of one page incomic that can be at any point made noncanon or recontextualized theres no evidence that it cant be him #they already retconed more important things. why not this? #i think its likely that in case im right we can assume that all named corries were made into CloneX #none of them appeared yet despite how much of action happens on coruscant #and only thorn died on screen; in a way preventing him from being viable option nonetheless #three hits point blank months before Order seem unlikely but theyve done weirder things so him returning wouldnt be THAT weird so uhh idk #but yeah cx-02 is tech #winter soldiering doesnt stop #i mean THIS could be fox/other corrie but it being tech is way too cliche oportunity to waste it on them (derogatory towards disney) #pls disney let corries hunt down traitors like they used to pls

[beanghostprincess]

Sometimes I think that even if shanks was asked by buggy for help because of the cross guild he would probably do nothing that useful since mihawk is his other close bond and he wouldn’t want to go against him and I get for some reason kinda sad

Agree to disagree, anon, because this is saying that hypothetically Buggy would ask Shanks for help because of the Cross Guild. A thing that could never happen in a million years and Buggy would rather die than ask Shanks anything. But let's say that Buggy (reluctantly) asks Shanks for help.

There are a lot of outcomes here, tbh, since it's hard for me to picture this situation but-- If Buggy is seriously in a big problem with Cross Guild I think Shanks wouldn't hesitate to help him? He won't kill Mihawk, obviously, but I don't see why Shanks wouldn't fight him if talking doesn't work. They get along but they're still pirates and if Buggy is in actual deadly danger he's going to help him out. I love Shanks and Mihawk too but, like, story-wise and canonically Shanks' bond with Buggy is a lot more crucial and important (as I see it) and I don't see why his bond with Mihawk would affect his decision here, tbh.

It's either that or he sends Beck and goes "haha Buggy how could you say you're in danger??? I trust you can get out of this one alone 🙏🏻 And also I don't wanna go, so here's my first mate to keep an eye on you. Don't stab him, please". And Beck wants to die a little bit because why the hell does he have to do this-

But if Shanks knew Buggy was in real deadly danger, he would help. Also, the fact that Buggy is asking him for help is enough sign of something going extremely wrong, so-

#shanks is realistic and knows the pirate world and is aware that he might have to fight friends tbh #he won't seek fight with mihawk quite obviously but if it's needed he would #okay but seriously the point isn't 'would shanks fight mihawk'. it's 'would cross guild fight shanks' #i read a fic once about shanks going to save buggy bc he has a vivre card and it's literally burning bc buggy is dying in their hands #and shanks goes directly to help him and tbh i really liked it #he gives buggy space outside of their past relationship the way he wanted but he won't let buggy die #i mean-- he has a friendship with mihawk but we barely know anything about it so idk if what they have going on would be enough to stop him #maybe i am just in denial and i really like shanks caring for buggy #although i don't like buggy asking for help tbh #one piece #buggy the clown #red haired shanks #shuggy #cross guild #dracule mihawk

[money-and-dandellions]

Lester didn't understand that Meg launched herself onto the Tarquin in order to save him (because this is Meg why would she— he doesn't really deserve it does he he is such a terrible friend and he is fine with himself dying) until he was told about it by Meg.

Meg who feels guilty that Lester is dying and she doesn't want to lose someone else who is important dear to her.

oh yeah and they hugged

and Meg cried

and Lester tried to reassure her that he is going to live despite not knowing if he will .

#meg mccaffrey #sunflower siblings #toa #lester papadopoulos #love them so much #they make me cry #she is worried about him #they make each other cry #they care about each other so much #oh he also he doesn't really know what he means #he didn't really have one #until now #and he is not really bothered by himself dying #he has changed #he also tried to save his companions by making thm leave him #and he didn't even like concentrate on it like !!!! write it down i am saving people #proud of him #and meg just said nope #we are not leaving you here #the tyrants tomb

[astragatwo]

The new W Corp besties

#my art #project moon #limbus company #fanart #lcb yi sang #lcb ryoshu #lcb hong lu #AUAAAAUUGUGHHH I HATE PM SO MUCH (putting up posters of everything w corp up on my walls) #they're so MEAN i HATE them :wail: #also hi i had these doodled for a little bit but decided to finish them instead of going to bed #i dont really like how any of these (except for maybe hong lu) look but at least the wip wont haunt me anymore #every time pm does something with w corp my friends get front row seats to me straight up dying for a little bit #trios of IDs specifically created to torture me: #last w corp cameo left is rodya when will it be her time #SIGHS i miss them all but pm's gonna need to Not sue unions if they want me to redownload their gacha game #anyways surely there's more than clean up agents over at w corp like dont get me wrong i love the flesh janitors but #what else is there i need to know more about my favorite dimensional space existential horror gore trains #sometimes i dream of drawing every single named wcorp agent in one drawing... maybe some day

[helga-grinduil]

beside the fact that todorokis weren't telling touya to stop causing troubles for them and killing people, and instead were telling him to stop burning himself, i feel like telling someone to stop killing people is. also a fair thing to say.

#'stop causing problems stupid bro' 'i don't wanna lose anyone else' #they are literally just saying that they want him to stop because they love him and don't want to lose him or anyone else again bruh #'causing problems' in this case means him dying and leaving them to mourn both their dad and him all over again #no one is victim blaming him here they're begging him to stay with them #it's not fucking hard to figure out #what's the holdup here #bnha #bnha spoilers #bnha 388 #todoroki touya #dabi #todoroki rei #todoroki fuyumi #todoroki natsuo #it's funny 'cause i really thought that this chapter was clear as crystall. but apparently it was not for some people.

[skittlewaffle]

Just an excited dad preparing for baby’s arrival

Just a loving father being doting and gentle on his two darlings

Just some happy dads dying over how small their kiddo is

Just two silly goobers messing around

… *sigh*

I have baby fever y’all, I’ll be completely honest ,, this was majorly self indulgent

if you were wondering, yes, I would feel like the kid is biologically theirs, made possible with sperm donors. it’s rlly deeply emotional and intimate to me personally that they made their own baby !!

however, this could 100% be portrayed as an adoption scenario as well !! It would make Sun and Moon just as happy to have a kid they can actually call theirs, no matter if through natural or legal means. It’s life-changing enough to simply be called fathers rather than just caretakers 🥺

Bonus hand size comparison for y’all 💖 (DCA’s hand could be bigger honestly haha,,)

#tw pregnancy #pregnancy tw #sundrop #moondrop #dca #y/n #fnaf security breach #fnaf sb #k’s art #digital #doodles #goddddd i’m DYING OVER HEREEEE #i’m on the floor #dad sun and moon give me so much life guys it’s not even funny they’re just PERFECT for the role #they will take such wonderful care of their family #they really do mean everything to them and there isn’t a thing they wouldn’t do for their health and happiness #not only husband material but DAD MATERIAL IM 😭💖💖😭💖😭 #i deadass really can’t get enough of them #imagine them caring for y/n throughout the pregnancy like HDHSGZJSNX they’re so protective always doing checkups on them #they want everything to go as smoothly as possible and they will serve you in any way they can because they can’t imagine what ur going thru #all they know is that it’s tough !!! and they want you to rest and be as comfy as possible . don’t you worry about a thing starlight #don’t you lift a finger let us take care of the house for you and babyproof it and everything #you bet the nursery will be celestial / daycare themed too lolll

[pinkeoni]

i dont think that byler needs to have had been planned since the beginning for it to still be happening

#now truthfully do i know if byler has always been planned?? im not the duffers so i dont know. maybe #although… #i dont know #will was always supposed to be gay per the pitch book #and thats carried through in s1 #but mike was supposed to have a birthmark and joyce was supposed to be a tough long island mom #things change #el being dead in the original draft doesnt really mean anything cause well shes still here #tbh i can imagine the duffs going into s1 without byler really in mind but then later realizing that it could work #based on how it was already written #‘hey. wouldnt it be funny if we put mike and will together instead of mike and el’ #i dont think that byler or gay mike contradicts what we see in s1. i just dont know if blyer or gay mike was always on their mind #in those early stages of the show #in s2 i could see this however #like how monica and chandler werent always gonna be together #and then they end the show together #byler is still happening as hinted by everything up to this point #that wouldnt change if it were not in fact realized at conception #same thing with el likely not dying just because she was originally planned to

[stop-breaking-my-heart-telltale]

favourite twdg villain?

I'm a fond enjoyer of the St. John's as villains. I don't know if they're my favorite just because they're only in one episode, but I love the concept of this family almost immediately jumping into cannibalism toward the start of the outbreak, dealing in human flesh to bandits, and casually feeding this group their friend's legs.

Like... what the hell was this family like before the outbreak that all three of them were like, "Hey now listen... nothing should go to waste, the dead are eating people so why shouldn't we? We gotta survive and in our defense, we only target those who were gonna die anyway... like y'all."

Dude, Mark was shot in this shoulder with an arrow. He wasn't going to die from that injury. It's so fucked that these seemingly friendly people took the group into their home and then fed them Mark's legs.

If we take the idea that everyone is infected and have the capacity within themselves to become walkers, to become monsters, then the St. John's were infected long before the outbreak, y'know? Not literally, but something was wrong with them and the outbreak just further spread that infection and changed them.

But again, are they my favorite? I dunno if I can say that since I have a lot more appreciation for Lily now. Yeah, some of her writing gets a little wonky in ep3 of TFS when she goes on her monologues and shit, but y'know what? I'm into it.

You have to remember who we're talking about and the fact that she's the antagonist; Lily isn't some anti-hero in TFS who secretly has a heart of gold that's brought to light because she reunited with Clementine... she's a fucked up woman who did fucked up things in the name of survival. She's full of rot now. She sees kidnapping children and turning them into soldiers to protect her home as a means to an end, but she doesn't actually give a shit about the people she's taking. They aren't people to her, they're as the episode title suggests, toys in her game. The only one she sees as a person is Clementine, and while that makes her hesitate at first, she sees Clementine's a prize to bring back.

She remembers what happened in S1; her father had a heart attack and as she tried to save him, Kenny smashed his face in with a saltlick and then expected Lily to just stand up and help him get back to his family because "he did what he had to, he made the hard choice." Yes, Larry was a piece of shit. No one liked him, and you can even question Lily on him and she'll tell you that he has a lot of pain. Yes, it makes him an asshole, but he's still her dad and he's all she has. I mean... the simplification is daddy issues, but in all seriousness, I don't doubt for a second that many of Lily's issues stem from Larry being a shitty father to her.

Then everyone thought she was losing it when she insisted there was a traitor in the group, which she was right about, but she was unstable. She was unwell, but how do you help someone like that when you don't have training to go about it? Then Lily ends up killing either Carley or Doug and the group turns on her, and either she's left behind or she steals the van and runs away.

Then we don't know what the hell happened to her until we see her again in TFS, but like... a lone woman with decay festering inside of her joining the delta? Exposing her to their methods? I mean, what else did she have to lose? She had nothing, she lost everything, and she has a lot of issues. Survival is easy when you're numb, when you don't care about the individual; they're all just cogs churning to make the system run, and if a piece doesn't cooperate, you get rid of it and find a new one.

Plus I think there's something to say about Lily not wanting to be perceived as weak again. That whole display she put on in the cells? Telling the story of what happened to Minerva and Sophie? I get the criticism that it feels like Lily did a 180 between episodes but like... yeah dude, because it's a performance. It's not just her and Clementine anymore. It's a display of power and authority. She's playing the part and thriving in it as she ensures everyone else is terrified of her.

But then when Clementine and AJ get the upper hand? Again, she's not afraid to play up the pleading to earn enough sympathy to spare her- hell, just to let their guard down enough to strike and get the upper hand again. I mean, she's got nothing else to lose, right? If she doesn't go for it, she'll be killed and sure, you can kill her anyway but at least she tried.

Honestly, I look at Lily in TFS and still see that scared little girl playing the tough bitch, just like Carley said in S1. It's just now escalated from "tough bitch" to a downright vile person. She's so... lost? I suppose? Lost within herself and the monstrous means she's taken to survive.

I get the criticisms of how she was used in TFS, but for me, it's like when people complain about Minerva not getting the redemption arc she supposedly should've gotten, y'know? There's no saving her. Lily was never on our side, and there was no getting her on our side. She wasn't ever going to redeem herself. Even if you spare her and she drifts away on her raft, can someone like her actually find redemption? Or will she just find another group that'll feed into her rot?

Truly, I say let her be horrid. Let her be the piece of shit villain with a few fleeting moments of humanity. Let her drown in the blood she's spilled.

#asks #twdg lily #twdg andy st john #twdg danny st john #twdg brenda st john #twdg clementine #twdg minerva #twdg mark #twdg larry #twdg kenny #i know i used to complain about lily in tfs a lot years ago but past cj complained about everything tbh sksksks #now i'm just like babe lily's interesting as shit like not every villain needs a redemption arc just because you think they're hot #and don't wanna feel bad or because you want her to be like she was in s1 when she was sympathetic like... it's been years #that's like being mad that clementine isn't the same person as she was in s1... the difference is we got to see clementine grow #but what happened to lily is a mystery... but that doesn't mean she didn't change especially for the worst #i dunno sometimes i look at lady antagonists in media and then look at people's reactions and i'm like.......... hmmmm #c'mon now- if kenny came back in tfs the same exact way then y'all would be foaming at the mouth insisting he's complex #and morally grey and he's just really sad about his family dying and really he's a sad widdle meow meow but also the best villain #who should be spared because he always cared about clementine and aj and he's just traumatized and sad and amazing unlike OTHERS #like.................... okay sure mmhmmmm #side note but the worst thing about kenny is the fact that he IS a brilliantly written character but his stans tend to just be the worst #anyway i like lily she's a great tfs antagonist like i recognize there are some weak spots and i wish she has more of a presence in ep4 #if she lived but y'know... gotta make room for minerva being the final bridge boss so... yeah

[compacflt]

Would you ever consider writing about a different path Ice and Mav could take, one where they choose to leave the Navy and pursue a more open relationship and civilian life? Thinking it would be easier but maybe the sacrifice to their careers brings its own challenges?

(hi, jan 2024 me here, this was an ask that I answered when it was sent in in May 2023 & didn't post because I felt I actually answered it fictionally in the "icedad" one-shot the week after [and you can obviously see how these thoughts affected the writing of other pieces like "tremors & aftershocks"], but I still mostly agree with this take [though it's a little overgeneralizing] & I think it sums up a lot of my final "meta" modern-military-theory thoughts on ice & mav & their relationship, so im posting it now before I post the compacflt masterpoast)

see,… the thing is, i just… can’t see that happening!! i have no idea how to write that!!! Maybe i really do have a lack of imagination. But i can’t see that happening for a number of reasons. So short answer, no.

Long answer (and it’s long):

1. lame reason to start out, but it, uh, it’s canon that ice ends up at O-10 and mav ends up at O-6. not saying that im beholden to canon obviously (my mav ends up at O-7 and my ice ends up alive) but I do base my characterizations of them on the implications of the political struggles of both their careers so… taking away ice’s fourth star is basically starting from square one wrt my characterization of him. which is a lot of work. i could start from the beginning with a top gun 1986 ice who knows he’s gay—that would be a fun AU (i think other people than me have definitely done that better, though—I’m a one-trick pony). So if that’s what you mean then disregard the rest of this post. but if what you mean is a divergence from my existing work (i.e. homophobic/rank-climbing ice&mav) then… yeah, can’t see that happening, for further reasons below.

2. wrt my characterization of him: it’s based on a broad historical overview of armed service officers and the expectations of their careers. in my view, high-ranking officers aren’t after power—or maybe they started their careers wanting power, but somewhere down the line, it just becomes an expectation. if you do everything right and follow all the rules, you are expected by the institution to lead, whether you want to or not. That’s just the pipeline. at some point you start losing agency. which is what I mean when I keep saying ice doesn’t have a choice in advancing his career (besides the meta fact that this is fanfiction and canon demands that he have 4 stars lol)—high ranking military officers are continually and continually groomed for bigger and better positions; and the longer they spend in the military, the harder it is to leave that lifestyle for something else. And with ice’s canonical (and characteristically INTEGRAL, as I mentioned a week or so ago) refusal to rebel against the wishes of the navy as an institution, plus this historical expectation to lead placed upon the shoulders of excelling officers, I really do think ice is destined for four stars & nothing less, even if it gives him chronic depression. It’s his highest priority not because he wants it to be, but because…it just is. that’s how the institutionalized system of advancement in the military works. it just is. it has to be.

3. I mentioned in this post that I can’t ever see a foot in the door with them talking about their relationship unless maverick dies and is resurrected, and I feel the exact same way about them & their retirement plans. There’s a lot that ice and mav don’t talk about: the biggest one is obviously Goose’s death, the foundation of their relationship; but also their love for each other obv, what they did to rooster, AND their careers, which have to end at some point. Them talking about everything is totally inevitable, it was gonna have to happen eventually before they died, and I think one foot in the door MIGHT have been them eventually talking about retirement (someone sent in a prompt asking for this exactly & i am brainstorming it furiously) but before the Navy FORCES them to retire… i think they would studiously avoid talking about it. For a couple reasons: a) what does retiring with each other mean? living in the same house until they die together? hard to do if you’re just good friends. talking about retirement is tantamount to talking about Them. and b) what are they gonna do outside the navy? Ice has a lot of options, as I mentioned in the slider one-shot—general/flag officers are SUPER sought after in leadership/intelligentsia/management positions post service, so maybe if he were offered a crazy cool civilian position somewhere in San Diego in like the 2000s he would quit the navy for it… but what about maverick? I have no idea what a non-navy mav would do. Civilian airline pilot? Hoo boy. I think he’d hate that. I could maybe see emergency helicopter pilot, lol, or race car driver (i just watched days of thunder can you tell?) but none of the above offers the institutionalized honor the navy does (that, as a reminder, he *killed people* to obtain in the first place). I suggested his test piloting expertise would make him an attractive technical advising candidate to A&D companies like Boeing, LockMart, GD, etc. so that might be one option. But it might have been kind of a touchy subject for him before he racked up the expertise he’d need for those high-level civilian positions… the navy was kinda his only option. So they wouldn’t talk about it because it might hurt his feelings.

4. The biggest reason: again… open rebellion like rocking the boat by quitting the navy to be in an open long-term gay relationship, in upper mil brass ranks, and even retired upper mil brass ranks, just… isn’t done. And REALLY wasn’t done in the 2000s, when i think the scenario in this ask is positioned. And it’s not like “oh but whatever who cares about the navy, ice and mav are in love, they deserve to be happy no matter what, they should do what they want, fuck the navy…” no. Ice and Mav care about the navy. Clearly. Canonically. By necessity. The military requires cohesion and on some level repression of individuality & personal expression to FUNCTION, even when you’re retired. Yes, maverick certainly strains against that repression (which is why you Could spin top gun as an anti-military franchise if you were desperate enough), but he rebels through his ACTIONS (stupid plane maneuvers) not through his personal IDENTITY. his personal identity (headstrong overtly masculine white male pilot, whether gay or straight who cares) is NEVER challenged throughout the franchise (i.e. no one really challenges his masculinity specifically) & his personal identity does not POSE a challenge to the navy. Both he and ice in their outward-facing personal identities really fit in quite neatly to the navy’s overarching identity & contribute to the navy’s cohesion in a way that is favorable to both their careers and the establishment. Lack of imagination or not… i can’t see a universe in which Ice and mav would actively WANT to rock the boat and wreck the navy’s cohesion and their reputations for an open relationship and definitively rebellious personal identities, with the obvious caveat being Maverick’s death recontextualizing both their priorities (yes we’re in love AND we’ve finally proven ourselves to be ultra-capable officers regardless of our sexuality so no one has a license to judge us anymore etc.).

And also, they’re not enlisted seamen. Nor are they mediocre officers who have the luxury of fading into obscurity. Things are different when you’re that high in the ranks, and when your job publicly matters more. sorry, but even post DADT (probably until about biden’s election), an open relationship would end their careers. They might not be fired, but they’d never be promoted again. Too much of a liability getting subordinates to still respect them, from the higher-ups’ perspective, especially if there are other qualified candidates who fit the navy’s core identity better. Like—sorry. This is such a jaded oversimplification. But if you rock the boat like that (i.e. break the service’s united front to be individualistic in a way that does not match the service’s overarching identity), from the perspective of your officer peers, you simply are a bad officer. Being an open individual in a job where you are required to fit in and represent your service is not your job. You are not doing your job well. Straight-up. Even if you’re retired. I met US Army 4-star gen. David Petraeus (retired obv) in February—he led the successful-ish surge in iraq and Afghanistan in the mid-2000s—and he’s STILL a laughingstock for his disastrous affair with his biographer a decade ago, even after he retired from AD service. That’s what people remember him for, not the fact that he was one of our only successful commanders in any of our Middle East campaigns.

Something like that might be one of ice and mav’s worst fears—being known for their affair/scandal instead of the institutionalized honor they’ve fought and killed for. That kind of thing just Isn’t Done. It's bad taste. You have to keep it quiet. If you’re an officer representing the service, you have to represent it well & according to the service’s preconceived identity, even in retirement. (see, for another shitty example of "not fitting in" even in retirement, Lt. gen. Mike Flynn [his whole scandal is actually kinda geopolitically relevant to my fic if you squint lol] whom everyone fucking hates)

To summarize: i hope I’m not mischaracterizing your ask when i reframe it like this—would you ever write ice and mav without the institutionalized pressure to advance in rank and conform to institutional norms?

and yes, I would (and will if you ask—it looks like this: ice & mav meet & fall in love & it’s boring and fine. end of story), but I guarantee you someone else already has. I’m all about interrogation of institutional norms here. And i think until maverick dies & comes back from the dead, there is absolutely no *REALISTIC* incentive for ice & mav to leave the navy and/or have an open relationship. Like it’s just not possible. Idk how else to say it.

#which is like the whole point of my fic right. this is exactly what im trying to say with the story as a whole #these are flawed institutions stuck in their ways and ice as an officer REPRESENTS that flawed institution stuck in its ways #until real life (maverick dying) gets in the way and makes him reevaluate his priorities #and the truth is—his 1st priority (loving maverick) is absolutely incompatible with his 2nd priority (advancing his naval career) #for the reasons listed above #so he quits! #but just because he quits doesn’t mean he doesn’t still represent the navy! that’s the curse of officership #per the slider oneshot: You can’t ever retire once you get any stars. #unfortunately in a realistic world Ice really DOES owe the navy his discretion. that’s how it works. #tom iceman kazansky #pete maverick mitchell #top gun #top gun maverick #icemav #asks #edts notes #the thing with petraeus though is that his affair was notable bc he leaked a bunch of classified info to her #so not the best example but it was still cool (in like a oh you’re a historical figure sense) to meet him so I’m bragging abt it #(see tweet I just added) #additionally: the military is changing! in this universe it would be young upstart officers like rooster/hangman who contribute #to the liberalization of military officer culture! #but that kind of change Is Not happening in the 50s-60s cadre of upper level officers. At all. Ice included. #anon let me know if this wasn’t what you meant in your ask. #& feel free to disagree/argue with me this is just my view #lol the DOD just banned drag shows in the military #^ these tags are 7 months old now