#Again I want to be very clear fandom spaces have always been homophobic but in a different way

[ivyblooms]

Hiiii this might be weird lol but I saw your addition to the post discussing the correlation between the gay trans men phenomenon to misogyny and you brought up the topic of rising trans slash in fanfics - as someone whose been in fandoms for like 10+ years you’re sooo right!! Even though I do read all sorts of fanfic (gay, lesbian, platonic) I’d say I’ve always had a more critical approach in fandom stuff (plus getting more into radfem theory about 3 years ago) and from the get go I always saw the ~majority~ of male slash fanfic created by women as an expression of romance/smut through a non-misogynistic lens; “men get to be people while women are women yadda yadda”. A perception I’ve always had at the back of my mind, so it always confused me when in the past 5ish years suddenly women who had consumed so much gay fanficton were proclaiming they must actually be gay men

You mentioned the rise in trans slash media and honestly I thought I was going crazy lol. There has definitely been a huge shift, where suddenly the components that made the work gay could just be altered and it’s supposedly still the same. Apologies if this seems vulgar but the switch to now male characters actually being trans, feminization in sexual/non sexual manners, and sometimes just having a “boyp*ssy” at minimum has been really fucking weird, and in some fandom spaces I’m in the change seems to have skyrocketed in the past ~6 months

Honestly sorry for the random ramble and feel free to disregard but I would love to know if you have anymore to say on this topic. I think I’ve only encountered one light discussion overlapping fanfiction / feminist theory, so it’s always interesting when I see the topic brought up!

No worries sis, it's not weird.

I am there with you. I'd been noticing the trend but when I wanted to have a quick look at Captain Marvel femslash I was like 3 pages of results in and still hadn't seen one that didn't include 'girlpenis' or equivalent. I was legit annoyed, the last thing anyone wants when looking for fxf is the word penis getting involved.

I don't want to discount homophobic fetishisation of course. As a lesbian I never really believed that was real until I finally saw some hetero fandom friends genuinely being sexually attracted to males cast in live action versions of a cartoon and I was like .. wait a second u guys were serious?? So yeah thats real, but I highly doubt it's the main reason. Especially when so many lesbians are super into slash fic as well.

So to your point, while I do think the popularity of gay male slash fiction has largely been due to women wanted to escape misogyny, I don't believe it's been a conscious thought. I don't believe many of these girls and women actively thought they are lesser than men, I don't think choosing to write mxm was a decision to highlight misogyny, I think it's just an entirely internalised 'feeling' that somehow putting a woman with a man is demeaning or inequitable therefore they want their favourite blorbo to be with someone that doesnt give them that feeling. And, to straight women, men are hot.

Like notice how so many of the pov men in older mxm fics are the one that bottoms? Even the concept of strict set in stone roles for top and bottom defining your character (seme and uke) really is more reminiscent of hetero relationships that actual real life gay relationships. I truly do think there is reason to believe this is due to making one character (the bottom) more relatable as a subconscious woman stand in. They were always shorter, they were almost always weaker, they had less body hair, they were almost always prettier and more feminine, their male genitalia was small and often barely remarked on and there was no question that their main participation in sex was being penetrated. They were trans men before the idea of trans men and gender being unrelated to sex really ramped up.

It makes perfect sense to me that the next step in that train of thought, that men and women feel unequal and gender is not related to sex, is "well I relate to men as an equal therefore I must also be a man". Like if you haven't stepped back to understand your own bias, how would you ever realise the true answer is women are equal humans despite the way the world treats us? It's not correct and it comes from a place of homophobia where straights consider gayness a club they can join on a whim rather than a meaningful material experience, but it's understandable that's the leap being made.

You are right, it has gotten so much worse over the last six months. Maybe ABO has finally become truely accepted and now anyone feels they can put any genitals on any character like its a mix and match. Maybe trans ideology has finally fully taken over the majority of fandom spaces. Maybe actual gay writers and fans got sick of so much unwanted hetero we have started dropping out of popular fandom spaces.

Seriously trying to find gay fanfiction now is so much harder than ever before, but it's something people not in fandom spaces are missing because if you see nothing more than the characters in ships you'd think it was gay. Fandom spaces are becoming hostile to homosexuality in a way I wouldn't have predicted 10 years ago. I think they probably always were, tbh, it was just that misogynistic straight women didn't realise they had another option and could get by on the fetish until they found this solution.

#Again I want to be very clear fandom spaces have always been homophobic but in a different way #They acknowledged that gay people existed and could fall in love and were real couples #Even that's sparse now #Radfem safe #Tw fandom content lol

[lycanthropicture]

This is a genuine question and I hope it comes off that way because I'm tired and confused. Other than the "We're missing the gay angel", "Misha said the scene was too 'manly' (gay)' (that last one in reference to Dean returning Cas' trenchcoat), the "?no" (which was a joke and taken out of context by people according to the op. they were not upset with Jensen in the slightest afterward), and the "Destiel is real? Where?" Thing has Jensen been openly and loudly homophobic to fans? Or made the fandom an unsafe environment for them?

I am asking with a genuine interest in furthering my understanding. This isn't to argue. I provided the above because I know about those and 2 are almost a decade or more old while the other has been blown out of proportion by the fandom and the last one is one I don't usually take offense to because it was an offhanded JiBcon thing and I don't think he was truly mad about the fans shirt or be would have continued to talk about it(as he does).

So, yeah, sorry for bothering you, and if this comes off in anyway other than simply curious because it's not meant to be some sort of rebuttal.

post ref 1 | post ref 2 | post ref 3

hi ok so. this is going to be really long because i want to be thorough and not have to get super into this again. sorry if i come across as bitchy, i promise you were very respectful asking this question. i think part of the issue here is that it's genuinely hard to keep track of fandom history, so things get lost and forgotten. you can see someone calling jensen homophobic, and if all the context you have is "jensen isnt as open to talking abt destiel as misha is" it can feel... bitter? and a little shallow? but there's a history and context here that's really something i and a lot of other people were pretty deeply affected by as young lgbt people. so! allow me to explain a little <3

so i dont know if you were in this fandom in like.. 2008-2016ish but truly it was hmm. quite a time to be a young lgbt teen (to be clear i was active on tumblr in spn fandom spaces from around 2012-2017 so ages 12-17ish. im speaking from my own experiences here).

as far as jensen goes. first of all, i want to say that the fact that you were able to list four incidences of this stuff (presumably off the top of your head?) does constitute a pattern of behavior. this isn't something that's been retroactively decided by fans in recent months to be an issue. the predominant attitude among destiel shippers at the time was "we cant ask about destiel because it makes JENSEN uncomfortable." this idea wasn't specific to supernatural, but there was definitely a heavier stigma around asking jensen a destiel question than there was around, say, asking martin freeman a johnlock question (this is just an example please do not crucify me. i had a superwholock blog when i was 13. sue me.) OR even asking misha a destiel question for that matter. to this day people are aware that misha is much more comfortable talking about destiel than jensen is. this is like. collective consciousness type stuff. to be honest, while the topic was banned cons (also very much homophobia but whatever), it probably didn't really need to be because there was such a heavy stigma around it that fans would police each other. if you went to a con and asked about destiel u would be yelled at BY destiel fans for making the actors (jensen, not usually misha) uncomfortable. not even sexual questions. literally just questions like "do u think dean is bi" and stuff like that might get you all kinds of online hate (or booed off stage, but we'll get to that later).

as for jensen's long-lasting pattern of behavior. this stuff ranges from homophobic jokes to microaggressions to becoming actually hostile toward fans at the mention of queerness in proximity to supernatural. this isnt meant to be a "cancel jensen" post. i don't think he's out here like "gay people are living in sin!" or whatever. homophobia isn't always conscious bigotry. sometimes it's the result of unexamined, unchallenged, deeply held beliefs about... gender? sex? masculinity? take your pick. i'm just trying to explain a pattern of behavior here and the effect it had on young lgbt fans at the time, and why people to this day talk/joke abt him being homophobic. i just want to make it clear that the reason people don't give jensen the benefit of the doubt when it comes to situations like the "? no" thing is because it fits into the pattern of outright homophobia that he has (up until very recently) always engaged in. while most of these examples are from years ago, i think it's fair to bring them up considering he's never apologized for or acknowledged any of it. here's just what me and my buddy who was also in spn fandom during this time (thank you, unnamed friend) could think of off the top of our heads, along with the examples you gave. this is by no means a comprehensive list. im just trying to explain that this was indeed a pattern at the time and heavily influenced the way fans talked about LGBT topics and how cishet fans treated LGBT fans both at cons and online.

we're missing the gay angel (2010ish?) gay == unmanly (2012) ? no (signed paper) (2018) destiel is real? where? (2019) brokeback mountain made him not want to do cowboy films? (2009) uncomfortable/mad at the idea of fanfic in 200th episode (2014) mocking misha by.. i just.. just watch this clip. (2016) "this is gonna sound gay, but.." (2011)

So the clip i think really kinda sums all this up is the "don't ruin it for everybody, now" clip from 2013. you can watch it here. it's the perfect encapsulation of how the fans of this show fed directly off of jensen's homophobia. cishet fans treated lgbt fans the exact same way that jensen treated lgbt fans. all this girl gets the chance to say is that she's bisexual, and immediately the audience is grumbling. jensen does nothing to stop these fans. then he acts annoyed with her, brushes her off, and he skips to the next fan. it's rude! it's gross! it makes me cringe and feel really bad for that fan. i'm sorry but it's just homophobia. it's just biphobia.

here's a link to a post i made a while ago talking about my personal experience with spn fandom as a young teen and how it shaped the way i viewed my own queerness. i recommend reading my tags, as well as the conversation that happened in the notes of that post. highlights are "i essentially became immersed in a space dominated by people who pushed this really fucked up anti-queer rhetoric that the cast/crew both helped to create and enable," as well as, "we were queer kids being told not to bring up queerness because it makes people uncomfortable"

#tw homophobia #i hope you found this helpful! #i know it's hard to find a lot of this info unless you know people who remember it #and therefore know what exactly to look for #again sorry about the quite frankly ridiculous length of this #phin.ask #drgarth

[writing-in-april]

Shining Bright Above You

Spencer Reid x Male Reader

Summary: Spencer finally gets to go out with his boyfriend after getting out of prison and gets to see the light despite the overwhelming darkness.

A/N: Hey guys! This is my twenty-first fic for my 30 fics in 30 days for April. This ones one of my favorites I’ve ever written and is based on this request and is also inspired by some stuff @ontheoddoccasioniwritestuff sent to me for inspiration. I know x male reader fics don’t do good in fandom (which is a crying shame) but there’s still a large portion of people it applies to that read fanfic so please share it around so it might reach them!! Inclusivity in fanfic is important and I’ve heard multiple people get very discouraged they don’t see more fics that represent them- so please help bring more inclusivity in fandom!!! My ask box is open for nice anons only- here- if I see a shred of homophobia I will curb stomp you (I will not have a debate about it in my inbox) BUT please don’t be afraid to point out if I made a mistake in terms of the gender of the reader (this is not an open invitation to critique the rest of the fic)Thanks for reading and hope y’all enjoy!

Warnings: Mentions of homophobia & the prison arc & subtle hints at a soulmate au (which is funny I wrote it like that because I don’t read soulmate fics lol)- otherwise its super fluffy 🥰

Main Masterlist Word Count: 1.6k

Time was just a construct created by humans to understand how we moved forward in the universe, and even though I was exaggerating it had felt like a million years since I had been out with Spencer. Prison had already made it hard to see him, with all the pat downs and checks only to still be separated by a plexiglass wall. On top of that, Spencer had only let me visit once, until he saw eyes leering at me with some uttering slurs underneath their breath.

It wasn’t until he was freed that I could see him again, and in the flesh as well. I remember our first hug after he had been released, both of us practically soaking our clothes with tears that didn’t seem to stop. For Spencer, it had even taken along time to convince him that I was real, and that I was safe- there would be no homophobic prisoners coming to attack us in the night.

Spencer didn’t like the night, one of his worst fears was the darkness and night was when the shadowy parts of his mind came out to play. Oftentimes I’d find him in other parts of the apartment at night, with all the lights on, the bed was no longer a place of comfort. One night I had pulled him to the couch, lights all flicked on and a nature documentary playing softly. When I had brought his head into my lap to stroke his fluffy locks that were still beautiful even though they were still damaged from the prison soap, he had fallen asleep a lot easier. Since then the couch has become our bed. Though I did not mind because he kicked and cried less in the night, and even when he did, it was easier to hold him.

The night was a scary place for Spencer, except when the stars shone bright. That’s why when I had remembered one of our favorite past dates, at the observatory, I immediately called in a favor. We had the place to ourselves tonight, sure it cost me more money than I’d ever spent before on a date. It had been ages, a million years it seemed like since we went out in public, so the price was worth it. It was all for Spencer, to make the night good for him again.

Though I definitely loved looking at the bright balls of gas up above I much preferred to rest my gaze on Spencer’s eyes. Spencer’s eyes often reminded me of the stars, not because of their color- but because of the slight twinkle that they got every time he was happy. The twinkle in my opinion rivaled the brightness of the stars with ease.

Normally I could listen to Spencer rambling on about facts all day, being completely entranced by his phrasing. But, his eyes had entranced me this time. I was no longer thinking about the black holes that he was rambling about, but how lucky I was. How lucky I was to see that twinkle in his eye and get to kiss him at the same time?

I could’ve been born at any point throughout space and time, to see any number of amazing things across the universe. But, I was put here standing next to Spencer. Just two specks of stardust ready to be in this world together. However insignificant life could seem in the grander scheme of things- however small we could both seem, I wouldn’t want to be next to any other speck of stardust nor be placed at any point in space and time.

“And no particles or even electromagnetic radiation such as light—can escape from it.” I caught the last part of what he said as he finished his mini rant about black holes. Thinking about light being swallowed up and being crushed into oblivion it made me think of Spencer again, it was a sad thought, though it was filled with hope.

I thought about all the darkness that had tried to consume Spencer throughout the years. Most recently prison had been the thing that tried to stomp the light out of him. It was nice to see that light that had dimmed sparkle a little brighter tonight. Even though we have been dating for a long time I felt myself filled with a small amount of happiness knowing that I was at least part of the reason the sparkle in his eye was bright tonight.

“You ok?” Spencer piped up, looking at me with concern.

“The stars are bright tonight.”

He looked a little confused at my seemingly somewhat random statement, he still looked back up at the stars. On the inside I wished he’d kept his bright glinting gaze upon me, then he confirmed my statement, “Yes, yes they are.”

“You’re still shining brighter.” Even after all this time I still had the capabilities to make Spencer blush. Every time he did so I was reminded of the stuttering boy I had met all those years ago. When he had first approached me in the library so long ago to ask me if I was finished with a book I had set down to the side, he was instantly just as endearing to me as he is now.

It had been such a different time then, it seemed almost like another lifetime. We had been through so much together, I often thought the universe might have some vendetta against us. Though logically the universe wouldn’t be so concerned with two small specks of stardust such as ourselves. Either way, whatever was truly out there in the unknown, there’s no place I’d rather be.

A piece of paper, folded carefully so the creases would be neat, was burning a hole through my slacks. It was a small gift in the grander scheme of things, a blip on anyone else’s radar. This held more meaning for us than just some novelty gift people buy.

His eyes were back on the stars, observing them with such intensity that I hadn’t even seen the astronomer Spencer had introduced me to last time we were here. Spence craved the light above him- who was I to deny him if I could give it to him?

It may have not been plucking the stars out of the sky for him to cuddle in his arms in a literal sense. I couldn’t buy all the stars in the sky, the website didn’t allow that. I could give him one though, one that was brighter than any others they had for sale.

“I-I have something for you.” I stuttered, which had Spencer looking at me with suspicion; he was the stutterer when nervous, not normally me.

Spencer’s eyes were on me now, not the stars, though he looked at me with the same reverence as he did when gazing up at the Milky Way. The same way I always did.

My hands were shaky when I pulled out the folded paper, carefully undoing the creases to present him the certificate of ownership for a star. Spencer steadied them with his fingers wrapping around my wrists. They were long and spindly, just made in a certain way that made me always want to kiss the tips of them as I did so often.

He then took the paper from my hands, even though I wanted to be greedy and take the warmth from his hands that the paper was stealing. I cleared my throat before telling him what the folded paper was, still nervous over a simple sheet of paper,“It’s our star.”

Somehow his eyes gleamed ever brighter because of how the tears that were now welling up in his eyes refracted the light even more. He wiped them a little, so he could scan the paper over to read the certificate that to most people meant nothing.

“It’s so we can have a little bit more light in our life.” I chewed on my bottom lip after I finished giving him my reasoning for the gift, nervous about his reaction. His hands were shaking now, as were mine, though for different reasons.

If my brain was thinking logically I’d realize he’d love anything I have to him, he’d probably even treasure a vial of sand. “You’re all the light I need” He then pulled me into his lips by grasping at my cheeks, the paper still in his hands brushing up against them accidentally. The only people here to see the light between us was a mingling curious janitor. It didn’t matter who was watching, I only needed one person to be here, Spencer. And, every time I was in his presence I always stopped to think, there’s no place I’d rather be. There’s no one else I’d rather be attached to, no one else I want to call me their boyfriend. He’s my home and my light just as much as I am his.

There’s an old Buddhist saying that, when you meet your soulmate, remember that the act to bring you together was 500 years in the making. So always appreciate and be kind to one another. I don’t know how much I put stock in the idea of soulmates, or the universe having some illogical vendetta against us, or the possibility of a being greater than humankind. I did know however, that if there was anyone in the world that I could possibly be soulmates with, it would be Spencer Reid. I’d spend the rest of my days comforting him from the darkness, happily showing him the specks of light in between that ultimately would defeat the swirling pools of black.

Ask Me Anything

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[cishetsokka]

Can I tell something that bothers me a lot about the "progressive" and "woke" side of the fandom? How LGBTQ+ is really just LGT to them. Bi / pan characters don't exist in their worlds, and if they do, they always make it very clear that their preference is to the same gender. Even if a character canonically shows sexual interest to both genders they ERASE it completely. They can only be gays. They can only be lesbians.

I am bisexual and it's SO FRUSTRATING to see how those people treats us like we don't exist only because we can feel attraction and have relationships with the opposite gender. I would very happily and very normally have mlm, mlw and wlw ships with the same characters, but the way fandom turns same sex ships into the utmost moral superiority standard makes me want to distance myself from it.

(English is not my first language, sorry about any mistake)

Bi/pan erasure is real. Real frustrating.

“...but the way fandom turns same sex ships into the utmost moral superiority standard...” - This is exactly what I’ve been saying!

But it’s also a lose/lose situation. If you’re a woman who ships mlm ships, people will call you a fujoshi and homophobic. If you’re a man who ships wlw ships, then you’ll be accused of fetishizing lesbians. If you don’t have any same sex ships then you’re homophobic. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. The only way you can win is if you’re a lesbian who ships wlw or if you’re a gay man who ships mlm. It seems cishet people are not welcome in fandom spaces at all. And yes, bi/pan people get attacked too if they have mlw ships or headcanons. No wonder people are fed up with fandom life. Again, it’s ironic that the people who are allegedly fighting for equality do the most gatekeeping and make fandoms unsafe and exclusive spaces.

#Anonymous

[whitetrashjj]

crying my eyes out at your MLA format essays cuz not every queer storyline in media has to be rooted in angst of coming out. i get some of the points you’re trying to make. i also don’t think the show is queerbaiting but jjpope had just as much “evidence” as jiara had. like please explain why jj was so keen on kiara liking john b just cuz she kissed him on the cheek and then went and kissed pope’s cheek?…. like in jj’s mind a cheek kiss means liking someone and he did that to pope. also there ARE shots of jj’s lingering gaze towards pope lets us not lie here lmao. i get that you’re sick of people calling u homophobic i dont think u are for not shipping jjpope i also dont think the show is queerbaiting at all but you go on about “storytelling povs” and “lack of critical thinking” when YOUR critical thinking is literally biased as hell 😭 u can ship jiara all u want but jj and kiara, ESPECIALLY KIARA, are both very much queer coded and if u gonna say they’re not bc of some cheesy sTorYtELLiNg bullshit that u probably learned from a youtube video then you’re just biased to your ship.

You know why I have to write those 'essays'? Cause I get asks like this that brush over a bunch of different topics and I want to make sure I not only address every part of it but also make sure I'm making my pov very clear so I don't have people misinterpreting what I say - even though they still do - or accuse me about random bitching without and reasons or justification. Anyway get ready to do some crying cause you are getting another essay.

I know not every queer storyline has to be rooted in the angst of coming out. I wish there were more that weren't. It's the reason I loved booksmart so much. It's one of the reasons I love Dare Me, because that show had sapphic leads and while their relationship was at the core of the show. It wasn't the fact that they were queer that was focused on. Oh god I could rant about Dare Me forever.

Now my point with JJ and Pope is that we don't get the impression that the boys are currently out as queer. JJ from the start was set up as a bit of a womaniser, a bit girl mad - it would have been very easy to make that gender neutral if he was bi, as I headcanon. With Pope it's the same, I personally view him as gay, but if he was bi/pan it would have been easy to show him like that as we see him attempting to flirt on two occasions. Now this isn't to say that in future seasons they can switch it up as if it was always canon, like they did with Clarke in the 100. My point however, isn't to say that JJ and Pope releasing their sexualities and feelings has to be filled with angst, the example I gave can very easily be played a bit cutely - even if they do address the internalised homophobia that I'm just sure would effect a character like JJ - but just that based on my experiences as a queer person and what I know to be experiences of others that it would realistically play out differently to how it would with a m/f couple. Even then when to comes to friends to lovers in general the removal of physical intimacy when that tension starts to build out of awkwardness is common, it doesn’t play out the same way that ships like JB and Sarah do in which they increase in physical intimacy. 

I didn't bring jiara into this. I didn't go out comparing jjpope and their interactions to jiara, I was simply speaking to how jjpope's relationship was portrayed. In terms of 'evidence' I am more than aware the jiara wasn't written to be a developing romance, anything there was created by what the fans saw and choices made by the editors. But it is also a canon fact that at the very least JJ is attracted to Kie, that all the pogues 'kinda have a thing for her' and that he has 'tried' something with her. Even if the intention of those things wasn't to build to a relationship - they did happen and that's not up for interpretation. I'm not gonna bring up the 'did you tell JJ?' thing cause it still confuses the hell out of me.

The thing with the cheek kisses is that it's not the action in itself that made it a romantic thing. A handshake can build romantic tension when framed that way but that doesn't make every hand shake in that piece of media suddenly romantic, make sense? If you compare the two scenes we have the build up of Kie walking up to John B, a close up of a lingering cheek kiss, the pull back with lingering looks and then the reactions of others who have observed it and picked up on something. It frames it as a significant moment with slow beats. That's how you build romantic tension. With the JJPope one it just flows past it, JJ pulls back from the hug, a quick peck on the check and a 'love you too man' with a smirk and pat on the check. We don't even have a second of Pope's reaction to it. Do you see what I mean?

You can love that moment as a shipper. I mean it's a great moment that really highlights their dynamic. To you it's a dynamic that you see and think oh this would play out so well romanticly, it's a dynamic I see and think oh I love their friendship. Each of those are valid reactions. But it isn't a moment that has been intentionally framed to build romantic tension and suggest a budding relationship.

Darl, I swear to god if I was coming to you with my shipping bias' this would be a very different conversation. I know I will always have them and I will lean into them when I'm on vc with shes, theys and gays and we are getting lost in headcanons but I do my best take a step back when I talk about these things here because I've been in fandoms when you have two extremes and no one relents and it's awful, I don't want to create that space. And once again, I did not bring jiara into this. My original post was not a comparison to jiara.

I am very curious about your perspective on queer coding here. Because yes, JJ has chaotic bi energy and I will die on this hill. But I do not see how he has been queer coded. Other than people seeing a man being physically affectionate with another men and insist that can't be platonic. As with Kie I can see it more, not for a second do I believe that what went on with Kie and Sarah was straight. And I desperately want to see Maddie play Kie as pan to rep her own very underrepresented sexuality! And in terms of how she's written, stuff like being an astrology bitch and environmentalist scream queer to us, I do think it is important to note that the writers of the show being who they are would necessarily have the same impression of what a queer womans traits would be. In regards to that scene in ep 1 where they have the hot touron girl and then JJ, JB and Kie all perking up and doing the nod thing? I don't think anyone has a straight explanation for that.

The 'sTorYtELLiNg bullshit that u probably learned from a youtube video' comment made me laugh cause it reminds me of this guy I had a fight with on the weekend over Remus and Sirius being queer and he decided to undermine my argument by saying 'just because you read it on reddit doesn't make it true' which... yike. Any way, maybe you do but I don't have the tolerance to sit down and watch a youtube video on someone analysing a show. All my interpretations come from years of writing actual essays analysing elements and themes in media. As well as having a keen interest in direction and editing, so I pay a lot of attention to those things and you start to notice patterns. In terms of credentials I don't have any but I do think these 'essays' do an alright job of me not only explaining my interpretation but why. Because I'm not someone to just say things and expect that to just be accepted or think that is makes it true.

#obx #outer banks #JJ and pope #jiara #JJ maybank #kiara carrera #pope heyward #lara answers

[inevitably-johnlocked]

can we adress how toxic some of these self/harm and suicide fics are?? as someone who has struggled with these issues, treating them as just a way for the two characters to get together, or one character to be the savior who cures someone of their problems? I'm so frickin over it. continuing to put your partner in limbo by threatening this behavior when they don't give you enough attention is a symptom of something major. This is not something i like seeing romanticized. at all.

[CONTENT WARNING FOR ENTIRE POST: heavy discussions of trauma, suicide, self harm, depression, political issue mentions, and eating disorders. Please proceed with care. I am not cutting the post because I think the message is important, so scroll past until my icon disappears <3 Stay safe, My Lovelies.]

Hey Nonny

Okay, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt here because you mention you DO have struggles with these issues, so I’m going to state right up front here and say I AM NOT DISREGARDING YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AT ALL. Your view of this topic is valid, and it’s not something I am ever going to say is wrong for you. 

I would like to offer an olive branch, here, Nonny, and give you an alternative take on this, because I’m concerned that perhaps you are still coping with your own struggles and in return, you unwittingly and unintentionally are coming off as unsympathetic to other people’s coping mechanisms.

I KNOW how hard it is to see another view when yours is the only one that seems right, especially after a tragedy or after dealing with heavy things. But all I am asking is for you to temporarily extend some empathy as I discuss my thoughts in this post, and I apologize in advance if I come off as dickish, because, again, it’s hard to see past your own feelings, and I tend to give a “firm but understanding” approach to asks like this. It’s NOT meant to call you our personally. Just asking for an open mind.

I will tackle this ask in a similar fashion to this post here, which talks about shipping vs fetishization so CW for that, as well as like this post here, where we discuss pet peeves. My assumption here is that Nonny is unsure about what “romanticizing” actually entails, and how much this ask is basically Gatekeeping Fiction 101, a thing that’s been going on since the beginning of storytelling. The ask is perceived by me to be emotionally unaware of how unsympathetic it actually sounds, and in turn can unintentionally upset people who engage in these stories.

First thing’s first, Nonny, and I said it before, I GET IT. I understand what you’re going for here, why you feel it’s toxic, and why you think it shouldn’t exist. Here’s the thing, though: what you’re ACTUALLY calling for here is censorship and gatekeeping because YOU PERSONALLY take issue with something, want the fandom specially curated just for you, because it PERSONALLY OFFENDS YOU. And that, it itself, is what’s really toxic, here. Just because YOU are offended, does not mean that it’s not helpful to SOMEONE ELSE, and it’s selfish to make such a demand of people.

Let me explain.

As I mention in the link above re: shipping, many people read and write fics to cope with the reality of their own experiences. Nonny, your experience is NOT the same as someone else’s. Your pain is NOT universal, and you DON’T KNOW what that author has been through; for all you know, they spent 6 months in-hospital after attempting suicide, and they are now simply processing their trauma through storytelling. 

Or, “continuing to put your partner in limbo by threatening this behavior when they don't give you enough attention” ? It’s a VERY REAL THING that ACTUALLY happens in real life, and perhaps it happened to that author, or they want to write an alternate ending to their pain.

Or, “one character to be the saviour who cures someone of their problems?” is something a suicide survivor WISHES someone did for them. Because they feel alone in the world and don’t want to be alone anymore.

These stories are simply escapism for people, either to learn about or share what these mental illnesses do to people, or are the “fantasies” of survivors, of their ideal outcome to their own tragedies. Coping with guilt over the loss of someone they feel they could have saved. The brutal truth about realty.

And sometimes, it is because some people need a good cry and a feel-good happy ending, because real life? Well, it rarely has those happy endings and so few opportunities to let us cry, and sometimes life is just easier when we view it through the eyes of fictional characters. Do you not want someone to save you sometimes Nonny? And I mean metaphorically here, too. Someone to just take all of your hellish burdens off those shoulders for one day. Someone who will come in to save you from yourself. I know I do.

And, well, sometimes, Nonny, it makes people feel less alone in this socially distanced world.

They’re not glorifying that issue Nonny. They’re telling their story.

Here are some thoughts:

Romanticization: Some trendy teen outlet selling a shirt with “mentally diseased” written across it.

NOT Romanticization: A character in a story coming to terms with a diagnosis of mental illness and learning ways to adapt. Their partner is involved 100% and they learn together.

Romanticization: Sherlock merchandise being sold with “I’m a high functioning sociopath” (not mention ableist as all heck)

NOT Romanticization: A character self-harms because of depression, and character B helps the character through their pain and together they get proper therapy and treatment.

Romanticization: Calling yourself “OMG I’m so bipolar!” because it’s trendy.

NOT Romanticization: A clinically depressed author, who survived a suicide attempt, wanting to tell their story through characters the world is already familiar with, and one that a touchy subject can be expressed and understood by other people, because they’re not ready to write the “real” book. Fandom is a safety net for them.

See what I mean Nonny? We don’t KNOW what kind of pain these authors have PERSONALLY been through, and to censor them from having their voices heard and their stories told is just not on for me.

And let me be clear: YES OF COURSE romanticization happens EVERYWHERE. I am not denying that. But your ask is coming off like EVERY STORY EVER WRITTEN is glorification of something. By your logic:

Disabled people shouldn’t write about their disabilities because they’re romanticising themselves.

The authors with medical degrees shouldn’t write realistic med-fics because some where in the world, ONE person MAY HAVE had a similar experience as Character A and B.

Someone broke their foot in ballet so they shouldn’t write a story about a ballet dancer who broke their hip because it may offend ONE ballerina SOMEWHERE in space and time who got sideline at the prime of their career? 

Stories about LGBT+ people shouldn’t be written because homophobes think it’s icky.

We shouldn’t write about wizards because it offends high school catholic pastors (an actual thing that happened)? 

How about cancer stories because kids die of cancer all the time? 

Non-fiction autobiographies about holocaust survivors is not okay.

Science books offend flat earthers, so we shouldn’t write those.

Books about the Big Bang and a 4.5 billion-year-old earth offends creationists, so burn those.

A now-adult child rape victim writing their survival stories to help get their often-in-power abusers behind bars are taboo.

True crime stories from detectives on those cases shouldn’t be told because they weren’t the victim.

Non-fiction in general because someone somewhere may have had that one singular thing happen to them.

How about coping with grief over a parent’s sudden death because I personally might find offense in that since that was a horridly traumatic experience in my life?

Do you see how progressively out of touch this argument is? (the answer to all of these: authors should be allowed to write them, because stories make us human). Your argument leads down the very dangerous path to censorship of books, the internet, and history... to have people only read and learn what someone else dictates, leading to... well.

I’m not trying to be a dick here, Nonny, I’m really not. But I think you’re really missing the entire point of fiction and story telling. I feel you’re failing in the empathy game here, and failing to understand what romanticizing really actually is. 

Whenever I get asks like this, I always feel like the Nonnies don’t really know much about pre-Ao3. I come from “early internet” fandom age, and I’m talking before tags existed. Back when I had to go buy a book at Coles and guess what was in it based on a cover description. No “amazon reviews”. No “harmful content warning” stickers. You just picked up that book, and sometimes you get a sweet story about a friends exploring an alien landscape, and other times WHOOOPS ACCIDENTAL ALIEN SEX I DIDN’T SIGN UP FOR. And sometimes, it ended with a dark story about death, and the reality of coping with it.

Twenty years ago, books on the shelves at bookstores and libraries were the only place you could do your reading and they certainly do NOT have tags on them... Modern tagging of stories are a REALLY recent thing introduced probably no less than 15 years ago and was perfected by Ao3 (which was started in 2009). 

These days, there is no excuse if you only consume fanfiction on Ao3. Fics are tagged with proper possible-trigger tags 90% of the time. They have a VERY METICULOUS filtering system. You aren’t being forced to read the fics, you don’t have to read the fics, so use those tag filters, they exist for a reason.

So, with that in mind, I genuinely DON’T GET this attitude about people wanting everything sugar coated and saccharine by default. Especially when you can LITERALLY CURATE YOUR OWN CONTENT. Life isn’t sugar coated. And fiction shouldn’t have to be either. People tag fics with triggers for a reason.

As they used to say back in my early internet days: Don’t like it? Don’t read it. Don’t comment, skip, next story.

And to put this ALL into perspective, so that you don’t think I’m talking out of my ass, I’m going to reveal something here: Do you know what fics I can’t read, Nonny, because they trigger me? Eating disorders. That’s self harm, Nonny, in a very different way. But you know what? I know that those fics DO help other ED people so I’m not going to sit her and tell people NOT to rec or write them. And some of those authors who write those stories are processing their own ED through those stories, healing in their own way. And you know what I do when I see one of those fics? I don’t read them, move on, next story.

I’m sorry if you perceive this as me being harsh with you here, Nonny, and you DON’T have to agree with me and you can block me and never talk to me again, and I’ll understand. As I stated at the beginning, I’m offering an alternative perspective, and helping you to see that some people take comfort in these types of stories.

I think what this all boils down to Nonny, after all of this, and rereading your question a final time to see if I missed covering anything, is that (and feel free to shit on me if I am wrong here) I’m getting the impression – as an unprofessional outsider looking in – that you’re still struggling with your inner demons, whether you realize it or not. The tone and brashness of your ask has me believing this... It feels like it was written after a trigger-moment and you needed to vent AT someone because you are alone, and that hurts my heart so much. I truly hope you find peace in your mind, soon, and I hope you have someone to talk to professionally, or at least a friend. (tw under link, suicidal ideation discussion and links to phone numbers that can help you). I only wish the best for you, my Nonny.

Anyway. I welcome other people to chime in here, respectfully, and let me know if I have the wrong take here. Because I genuinely don’t think I do, but I am not a professional, so my entire thing that took me 3 hours to write here is probably moot. I’m especially interested (on anon in my asks if you’re not comfy with revealing yourselves) on thoughts from other people who have survived the original topics here, as well as any therapists and authors as well.

Take care of yourself Nonny. And please curate your own content for your mental health. Ao3 has an “exclusionary tag system” as well, please use it. *hugs*

#steph replies #suicide cw #censorship #self harm cw #chatting with nonnies #Anonymous #eating disorders tw #depression cw #romanticization #my thoughts #i am not a professional #long post

[supertransural]

supernatural made me realize a bunch of shit about myself, specifically identity and it’s part of the reasons why i think it’s an inherently queer story.

allow me to clarify. once upon a time, 6 years ago, i found supernatural. back then i was mostly in the closet, even to myself. i’d gotten to that point of “hah wouldn’t it be nice to be like guys on tv and kiss the pretty girls” but not much further than that, because in most of the movies i had watched with my parents, the personality of the guy wasn’t really explored in the way supernatural (mostly unintentionally ngl) does with its characters.

so picture a teen, finding my first tv show to watch alone, being able to think my very own comments about it and not fear any repercussions from those thoughts because hey, i’m alone in my room i can think what i like about what i’m seeing. and feeling.

and here enters dean. complicated, comes from a rough childhood, parental expectations weighing so heavy on him it’s bleeding through his smiles, has a brother he feels is his duty to protect, is stuck in a loop of denial repression depression sublimation denial repression depression sublimation den-

you get the gist. i related to that guy. and then here he goes getting bi-coded (didn’t know what that was at the time but looking back, i could sure as hell feel it) and then kissing girls on screen, despite his wavering self-confidence. little ol’ gay me was like “yoooo i relate to this character on most of his character points, do i also relate to like..... wanting to do what he does??? do i wanna kiss other girls????”. fast forward one season and i’ve already figured out i was maybe bi. literally thanks to season 1 dean.

so, having figured out this “minor” aspect of myself, i went on youtube to find some other people like me and try to see if i was right to be homophobic towards myself or not. figured out, hey uh, definitely not. so you can also add “it ended up making me try to put a stop to my internalized homophobia” on the list of things that shitpost of a show helped me with.

i went back to the show for another season, relating even more to dean, and “blah blah blah queer coded character blah blah blah gay me could feel it before i knew what it was blah blah blah happy gay stuff”. several seasons passed by before anything new came up on my “hm this show rly out here bringing out all the queer aspects of myself huh” journey, but anyways i was still slowly but surely thinking holy shit i wanna be this goddamn man i want to be dean.

then comes season 4, walzing into my questioning little heart. oof ok, this season hit ALL the right spots for me. because i could feel what was going on between cas and dean and even though everything was still blurry as fuck, the parallel between sam/ruby and dean/cas was clear as day. and i was like “oh so you’re saying there’s a love here and it’s like that tarnished love between sam and ruby and it’s forbidden so that’s why we’re not seeing it and it’s like... gay”. so it made me realize “holy shit, i wanna see more gay content, and it’s ok to want that.”

then cas became another extremely relatable character, because i just kept thinking “he doesn’t really have a gender the same way other humans do” and i shit you not, he started me questioning my own gender. because again, a relatable character that you somewhat identify with that makes you ask questions about their identity INEVITABLY makes you ask questions about yourself. queue me going on youtube yet again to understand this shit a little better. i went through a few months of thinking “maybe i’m nb”, joined a few more gay communities on the internet, started learning about lgbtq+ things, watched a few more gay shows, and basically just grew a little more into my queerness.

fasforward several seasons, a couple gap years where i stopped watching it, and you’ll get to me a year ago. i thought i was a gay woman, fairly happy in that mental space and identity. but then. the whole “i wanna be dean” thing came up a lot again. because he just kept on being more and more visibly queer coded as i kept on learning more about this shit.

lo and behold, i jumped straight into the idea i was trans. and wouldya look at dat, i was right. quarantine happened, so i had to get even more of my interactions through online platforms, and quite obviously hovered around the gayer ones, or at least the lgbtq+ sides of them. and as i kept watching the show on and off, binging the first seasons for the 4th time, i kept learning more and more about myself. and those acts of gay frenzy were always started by seeing something relatable or strange in that show and looking it up. like, legitimately every time.

i found this community on tumblr a few weeks ago because i was tired of having my own little hypotheticals in my head and not knowing if anyone agreed, and the more i’ve been here the more i’ve learned about myself. the more i’ve let go of a lot of internalized hatred. the more i’ve been really ok with myself, as a trans guy. BUT ITS NOT FINISHED YET.

because, as we all know, it is common understanding here that dean is bi. WELL, i’ve been re-binging the show with that mindset finally clear in my head, and the “haha dean relatable lol” thing came up again, except it was really a “haha dean (who is bi) super relatable lol” thing now. so i paused, yet again, to think about that a little more. AND FIGURED OUT I WASNT STRAIGHT, IM BI AS FUCK.

that happened 1 month ago. i thought i’d grown fully into my queer self, that i’d gone through enough realizations and coming outs (to friends only, god forbid i come out to my parents (unfortunately quite literally god forbid lmao) before i’m out of here) for a lifetime. but apparently not. AND IT WAS STILL BECAUSE OF SUPERNATURAL. destiel and trans!dean fics helped with my internalized transphobia and homophobia, they helped with acceptance of those parts of myself. something that helped was also seeing the fact that shipping two guys in a tv show wasn’t just “being greedy with my grubby little gay hands” and wanting to think of a character as trans wasn’t just “being delusional and ridiculous”. and reading fics wasn’t cringy, it was nice and comforting.

so to try and sum up this unhinged gay rant, what i meant by my initial statement is this.

looking back on this entire self-discovery journey that i went on, it really felt like i was in the impala with the boys, except i was on a different kind of route (just picture this giant road painted in rainbow colors with baby driving at 80mph on it, that’s what it felt like). i grew with those characters, but most importantly i grew THANKS to those characters. their story was queer enough to make me, a fairly homophobic, traditional, conservative kid into a lib trans bi dude. and not in a “i got converted by the fandoms” way. i found the fandom waaaaayyyyyyyy later. i stumbled upon the fandoms looking for answers about this gayass goddamn show that i could FEEL was like me but couldn’t verbalize yet.

their story felt like a queer self discovery story and i could already see that before i went on it myself. no other shows have ever done that for me, and i’ve watched shows that had lgbtq+ characters in them, scripted gay scenes, not just subtext but text. and they still didn’t do that for me.

so this is why this show is so meaningful to be, and incidentally so very gay. like genuinely.

#jesus christ this was long #i’m sorry for this fucking rant but needed to get it out #it’s just so gay and it made me see my own gay #and i just needed to share that #like destiel literally helped with my life but also my queer identity #anyways imma shut up now #spn #supernatural #destiel #cas #dean #deancas #bidean #lgbtq #rant #vent

[charcubed]

I agree with your opinion on ?no thing and wanted to ask what do you think of jackles saying his number 1 reservation about 10.05 was destiel mention. People also use that as a proof that he is/was homophobic, which I tbh can't agree with, bc there's like a million reasons someone can dislike a ship involving their character and it's not fair to immediately make the worst conclusions possible? Idk, can you share your opinion on that?

Part 2:  Forgot to add: and even saying that those reservations mean he dislikes the ship is already an assumption anyway - 10.05 anon

Hi anon! 

First thing I’m going to say is that I think it’s frankly bonkers for anyone, in any fandom, to call someone homophobic for not loudly supporting or maybe not understanding a gay ship. Of course this is a blanket statement and in some ways it can still depend on the situation, because could someone be outright homophobic about a queer ship? Sure. But that’s not always (and tbh, probably rarely) the case in situations like this. As you said, there are a million reasons someone can dislike a ship or simply not understand fandom culture with that kind of stuff; if one is unfamiliar with it, it does take a certain level of PR coaching to understand it more fully. I’ll go back to that though.

I looked around for ages, and for the life of me I can’t find a source on Jensen saying that the Destiel mention was his number one reservation. If that was something he said, can you (or anyone reading this lol) point me to a source?

All I know of–and found in my search again–is this video / article, where he talked about his initial reaction to the episode.

"I didn't have a positive reaction," Jensen Ackles told E! News. "The first time in I think 200 scripts I went and sat down in the showrunners office and said, ‘What in god's name are you doing?! Why? I need to understand why this is happening.'"

It took some convincing from executive producer Jeremy Carver for Ackles to finally come around to the idea.

"He gave very eloquent answers and did a great job of explaining why we were doing what we were doing," Ackles said. "I guess I had been aware of this 'fan fiction' for a while and I felt like maybe if I ignored it, it would eventually go away. When I read it in the script that is what I do for a living and is my work—I'm very protective of these characters and the story and I think we have a right to be—I wasn't angry. I just wanted to understand why and what was the message we were ultimately sending with this script and story. By the end of it, I felt good and it gave me all the confidence I needed. It was better than I could have ever hoped."

He continued, "I never should have even sat down in that office, so Jeremy, I'm sorry."

So from the perspective of this quote (if that is indeed the quote in question):

No part of this is anti-Destiel lol. I think it’s very clear what he meant by having concerns about this episode. I’d even go as far as to say that if he has said something about worrying about the Destiel name drop (if there’s a source on that I don’t know about), then it was still in this context: he wanted to know what message they were sending with this story. 

I think it’s also key to remember that he’d been aware of fanfic and ignoring it. Why? Because he was also primarily aware of w*ncest fic and J2 tinhatters and the like. There’s a sordid history there, and it’s not unrealistic to say that it caused problems. That was Jensen’s first and primary encounter with fanfic and shipping as concepts, and it makes sense that his method was trying to ignore it and not focus on it. 

Then, the flip side: maybe he didn’t want the fans to feel ridiculed either. What kind of message were they sending with this episode? aka is this going to be a nod to fans, or be seen as making fun of them or even getting their hopes up about a ship?

Then clearly things were explained to him, and he understood, and felt good about it. That counts for a lot. After that conversation, he clearly liked 10x05 and often said as much in other interviews too.

Overall, look, ultimately... I don’t know Jensen as a person, obviously. I wouldn’t ever claim to. But I think he seems to be the kind of person who just doesn’t like being back into a corner, especially very publicly such as at conventions. I think he–like all other actors–know they don’t write the stories and can’t promise things on behalf of the writers’ rooms. This applies to any instances people dredge up across the board.

I think he also–especially in the early days–didn’t understand what fandom wanted from him when they asked him leading questions about Destiel... because even at the best of times sometimes fandom doesn’t know what they want, and because without being coached in the best kind of responses no one would know how to answer perfectly especially back then. A mere 5, 6, 7 years ago, social media was still growing, talk of queer rep was still actively evolving and becoming louder, and fans were becoming emboldened (not necessarily in a bad way) to demand more of stories–but that didn’t mean everyone (especially actors) were engaged or educated on what that all meant for the ways they had to respond including on the spot.

SPN season 10 aired in 2014. Same sex marriage wasn’t legalized country-wide in the US until 2015. Lexa died in The 100 in 2016, and I mention this to put in perspective where queer rep conversations were at the time, using a marker many people know about. 

Is it so surprising that an actor in a show from the early 2000s–with the baggage of w*ncest shipping debacles, network pressures, inability to speak for writers, and already many years’ worth of playing a character who felt personal to him–wouldn’t have known that fandom wanted to hear the exact phrasing of “I’m not sure Destiel is where the story is going but all interpretations are valid and if you think Dean is bi then of course he is” anytime he was asked a question practically designed to trip him up?

It’s not homophobia to have a cocktail of concerns surrounding a topic like that, in context like that, and especially in very public spaces like conventions. (Homophobia is shit like “not everything is about the gays, okay gay people?” Lol.) There are many reasons an actor could dislike a ship, but even more so, there are many reasons an actor may not understand fandom culture or not know how to perfectly address a ship / queer question because they didn’t know what the fans wanted to hear.

Basically, in summary: I agree with you and I’ve never personally seen anything from the backlog of history that Jensen’s said that struck me as either homophobic (a big word people should stop slinging around!!) or deliberately anti-Destiel with malice.

#asks #anonymous #jensen ackles

[dgcatanisiri]

So... something kinda hit me abruptly and pushed me to feeling about ready to snap, so... Have a word vomit. Kinda feels like a greatest hits compilation of  my “another angry queer rant” tag, but I need to get it out, so...

I know I’ve been over plenty about how I don’t feel represented even when I have something with gay representation. How I’d give dozens of Dorians and Iron Bulls to get even one run of Inquisition that properly has my male Inquisitor romance Cullen. How when I look at Mass Effect - this franchise that I love - I can only see how much it hates me for being a gay man who dares to seek content for me. How godawful it is that Gil’s story, a story that is explicitly a story centered on a gay man and the difficulties he faces BECAUSE of being gay, was written by a straight person who ABSOLUTELY does not GET. IT. And how fandom as an entity sucks, because so often it feels like the attitude of the people in it comes across as telling me that my desire to be represented in my media somehow comes in second to celebrating the advances solely for women, that my needs as a queer MAN (the emphasis usually theirs) are less important, because I can still see myself AS A MAN in other characters throughout media.

But... That doesn’t change the fact that this is a very real, very tangible THING for me to grapple with. And sometimes it feels like no one ever, EVER talks about this.

I mean, my go-to example is that after Inquisition dropped, you could not say A WORD in criticism of Dorian without people jumping down your throat, chomping at the bit to call you a homophobe for it. No matter what reason - but ESPECIALLY if you thought he was “too stereotypical” - you got hit with that label. Even if you were gay yourself, it was just your “internalized homophobia” that made you dislike him, or even being biased against the people who genuinely do lean in to the stereotypes, don’t they deserve representation too?!

Well, yeah. It’s not like I was saying they don’t. But that it’s a stereotype means it’s often still in media, still often THERE. It’s not always good representation, but it’s something. Meanwhile for those of us who AREN’T? It just meant further exclusion from the narratives. A continuation of our invisibility.

And sure, one queer character cannot represent every queer person, one individual who embodies one letter of the alphabet soup cannot be everything to everyone under that individual label. But, again, it still means that I don’t get to see myself.

If media representation is a life preserver, then I’m getting pulled out to sea while the lifeguards are busy with people who are closer to them than I am. Which, you can call it triage, cast the widest net to hope to get the most people, but when you’re one of those who are not even able to grab on to the net and use it to pull yourself closer, it’s not helping. And, because they’re focused on those who have grabbed on to the net, your struggle continues to be ignored.

Worse, sometimes they aren’t factoring you in the net they’re throwing (yes, I’m aware my metaphor is getting increasingly strained, just work with me here) because they think you’re not in the trouble they think others are - if you can “pass” as cishet, if you can exist without actively fearing for your safety, if you are the kind of person who can walk down the street and not expect to be harassed because you “present” gay, then you’re not as in need as those people who can’t, who are going to be threatened for existing while visibly queer.

But the truth is that you’re still suffering. I’m not gonna get in to the whole oppression Olympics nature of it all, but there is an element that those of us who “pass” as being “straight-acting” (and, for the record, I think these terms are bogus and bullshit, but I’m using them for the sake of simplicity in getting my message across, because I’m stream of consciousnessing this post instead of going to bed so you’re getting babble and word vomit so that this isn’t playing on a loop as I try and sleep) suffer that... I’m not going to say that it makes it worse, but it does have this level of SOMETHING that is a unique pain that you aren’t going to find from the people who are visibly and noticeably queer at a glance - it’s not just isolation, because this is something that you end up not talking about because no one around you realizes that you are queer, but also this voice in the back of your mind that starts questioning “are you REALLY queer? Are you queer ENOUGH?”

And that’s why it hurts that little bit more, is that much more a twist of the knife, when I see these people who push the “joke” of like “why did they even HAVE male Shepard?” or “the only way to play is as Kassandra.” Because it does reinforce this idea - that there is this attitude of this thing, this character that I was seeing as representation doesn’t matter. So that I take strength in that character, well, that’s just me latching on to REPRESENTATION AS A MAN, and we’re not here to protect your fragile masculine ego.

When all I’m looking for is a queer man like I am.

And sometimes, I don’t even feel like the other queer men I can look to get it. Like, there was that time about a year ago that I looked up issues of queer men in video games, and the three videos I found all got an “...and NOPE!” reaction from me - the first argued in math about how “queer people are a small portion of the population, we can’t realistically expect to be represented equally,” even though we’re talking about FICTION, which is, by definition, NOT reality, the second was clearly a cishet who compared not being represented as a queer person to not being represented as a Swedish person, and then a third who first had a thumbnail on a video of “good and bad representation” and Kaidan was the example of bad (so a negative mark against this video to begin with, but I was desperate), only to lead with Dorian as a good example, which... *vague motion above and at the “dorian critical” tag* I staunchly disagree with this stance.

Like... I have to struggle to think of who my role models in being a queer man are. It’s not just who fits my story, but who do I look up to, who inspires me. And, admittedly, the luster for any personal hero seems to inevitable wear off at this point, I’m in my early thirties, and most of the media I consume will have characters who are my age or younger PERIOD, so my queer heroes would have to be people I’d consider either peers or even someone who I am older than...

But then, that’s kinda the thing about being queer period - we lost a generation to AIDS, and for those who followed that generation, we’ve had to live in this world where our heroes don’t exist like us, while trying to pave the way for those who come after us, and who can’t conceive of what it is like to age - as in “go from adulthood to middle age to elder,” not just the matter of growing up from childhood to adulthood - and so even as they’re the one who we want to give all of this to... It still means we suffer because no one is there to offer US that hand.

And yet, try to explain this to media creators, and you get ignored or even shut down. Like, I about a year ago, I directly replied to tweet from Patrick Weekes, explaining how Inquisition failed me, how all bi LIs actually HELP me feel more represented as a queer person than the mix of sexualities that BioWare on the whole has said that they intend to do (re: the difference of LIs in DA2 and Dragon Age Inquisition). It got no response, not even a like to indicate that it’d been read by them. I could form in my head the response I’d have inevitably gotten from David Gaider when he still had an active Tumblr of what would amount to, nicest, “we cannot please everyone, enough people were moved by Dorian’s story to make it worthwhile, sorry.” Given some of my cynicism, I can’t help but believe that it would also have come with a “sorry you feel that way.” Particularly considering some of the comments he’s made about Cullen and Kaidan as LIs, both of whom being characters I connect to more than others in their respective games...

And like... Gaider is a gay man. Weekes is nonbinary. But they are from that generation who view being able to exist openly as queer as a revolutionary statement, which... It’s a statement I want to make, sure, but it’s not a revolutionary one to me - “existence” is the bare minimum. To me, focusing on existence as a queer person is to say that the queer character must justify existing as queer in order to be a part of the narrative. But what is revolutionary to me is to give the queer person a story in the narrative that has NOTHING to do with their queerness.

Like... Fantasy world here, Inquisition drops with Cullen and Cassandra as same-sex exclusive LIs, while every other aspect of their stories are the same. Women can’t romance Cullen, Men can’t romance Cassandra. Other than that, we have Cullen with his addiction/redemption arc and Cassandra not just struggling with her faith but even getting the chance to be Divine. Yes, fandom would FLIP. THE FUCK. OUT. But here’s what it says - the things that these characters go through in the course of the game are not defined by their sexuality. Hell, with these characters specifically, you get characters with MASSIVE relevance to queer stories that AREN’T exclusive to being queer - addiction is a real issue in queer communities, given how many of our safe spaces are bars or clubs, places where alcohol (and thus alcohol abuse) is easily obtained, and, by extension, drugs as well. Meanwhile, there are SCORES of queer people who struggle with the question of faith in the wake of their queerness manifesting.

THAT is revolutionary. To take these stories that straight people get all the time, that certainly have meaning as queer stories for the queer audience... And yet, when they go to these (hypothetically) queer characters, it has that subtext without making the story ABOUT their queerness, while still making it clear that, in this version of things, they are queer - players couldn’t pretend that it’s only in some parallel universe that they are queer, they would only be attracted to the same sex PC. THAT is revolutionary.

Or, y’know, take it back beyond BioWare for a little bit here - all the characters I feel the most connection to emotionally in TV shows are straight. All these men who are my role models only ever get shown being involved with women. At most, they’ll get queerbaited as MAYBE being queer, if you just keep watching! Inevitably, of course, they are not queer by the end of the show - the closest to date is the debacle that is Supernatural.

Yeah, there’s representation for ya.

And then there are those who end up looking at what I see as thoroughly inadequate and... They’re happy. They praise it. They look at this thing that hurts me, that excludes me, that can, when I’m in the bad headspaces, even make me question myself... And they have found something they like with it.

Which, for the record, good for them, genuinely and sincerely, I really am glad that someone is getting something out of this, but... Well, see above: life preserver, isolation, “sorry you feel that way.” Everyone else is getting what they needed, but what about me? When does my representation get to appear? Why am I always being left, scrounging for the scraps of the scraps? Why does other peoples’ representation always seem to get shoved to the front of the line, leaving me languishing in the back.

That’s the real thing about all of those lines of “if you don’t like it, go make your own!” At this point, even if I did manage to get something in my to-write folder cleaned up and ready to go, in reality... How am I supposed to feel like anyone other than me WOULD proceed to read it? That the audience would exist? Because... no one seems to care about this audience. Hell, how would I get anyone to publish it if it is only going to appeal to me?

I feel on the margins of the margins, where no one really cares. Hell, even here in my own blog, I feel afraid of backlash - I’ve had the assholes show up in response to like little brief comments that are off-the-cuff rambles, not worded in a way that makes them a full, detailed accounting, and either take them as evidence that I, personally, represent all that is wrong with fandom at large, or that I am a target for their trolling. Because saying that “I find the jokes about male Shepard not mattering to be diminishing of me as a queer person, can we please stop this?” is somehow not just lesbophobic, but VIOLENTLY lesbophobic. Or that saying that I don’t care that bad things happen to a fictional species is somehow advocating for violence against actual women. Or even explicitly calling out BioWare for lovingly lingering the camera on Miranda’s ass is slutshaming her. And of course, there are the assholes who responded to me saying on the BioWare Twitter announcement post for the Legendary Edition that, if it didn’t have a full trilogy male Shepard/Kaidan romance, I wasn’t buying it, and proceeded to a) call me entitled for it (like, read a dictionary, the very fact that I have to call for this content that doesn’t exist in the game proper is the OPPOSITE of entitlement...), b) tell me that I “shouldn’t deny [myself] a great story just because it doesn’t have gay people in it” and c) just generally be homophobic. Even in rolling with it on the basis of “the trolls are gonna show up period if you make it clear that you care about something, especially if you are trying to get representation for some group that is in the minority... It gets exhausting. It can be harmful. It makes it clear that you’re not welcome, even when you’re supposedly united by the fact that you and these people supposedly love the same piece of media.

I mean, among those examples, I’ve given the statements that inspired those responses no tags other than my own organizational tags, but SOMEHOW they find me anyway, so it wouldn’t surprise me if I got accused of like being another White Gay™ with this post, that I simply want to center the conversation wholly on myself at the expense of all other intersections of queerness and other identities or something for saying all of this, even though this is, and it says so from the start, a vent post, which, by definition, is centered on myself because it’s about me and my experiences and emotions. *sigh*

Anyway...

And, y’know, when BioWare actively refuses to even ACKNOWLEDGE that the absence of a full trilogy M/M romance option is a bad thing, it just ends up saying that the trolls are actually the audience they’re willing to court. That Supernatural ending with a brothers only focus that doesn’t even allow Cas to be mentioned other than offhandedly while suppressing ANY kind of emotional fallout to his admission of love says that they don’t care about the queer people who at the very least the actor was trying to be respectful and representative of. That every piece of media that says that to have a queer person in it, their presence must be explained and justified is saying that there needs to be a REASON for queerness, a reason that is not “because people are queer, and queer people come in as many stripes as cishet people, and so media should reflect that spectrum just as much.”

Even when the numbers of queer characters in media goes up, it doesn’t really move the needle. And that’s not even getting to the difficulties when you are any mix-and-match combo under the queer umbrella, or any other identity that intersects to marginalize someone in our society. It just...

Y’know, it doesn’t feel like “it gets better.” Rather it just feels like being stuck in position, just with a changing backdrop. Sure, things look different by the end of the day, but that doesn’t change that you’re not getting anywhere.

#dg gets personal #another angry queer rant

[three--rings]

i keep seeing people complaining about wei wuxian being referred to as "mom" or "lan wangji's wife" and stuff and "HE'S A MAN. STOP TREATING THEM LIKE THEY'RE NOT MEN! THEY'RE MEN!" and i keep squinting like... is this terfs? are you terfs? because what's wrong with interpreting their genders however the fuck you want oh my god. (i read wwx as genderqueer/fluid and lwj as agender. but i read lwj as wtfsexual and wtfromantic too (gay, but, he doesnt have a clue))

Yeah...yeah.  So it’s part of the Big Fandom Discourse about Untamed versus the novel and the repeated arguments from show-only fans that the novel is Problematic because______________ insert reason.  This one, about the one time when in the novel Wangxian are referred to as “man and wife” by WWX.  He’s literally saying they are equivalent to married.  But, from my understanding, the Chinese term for “married couple” is just “man and wife” so that’s what’s used.  That was blown up into a huge THING about Evil Asian Fujoshis trying to turn gay men into women.

In addition, WWX expresses a desire to give birth, that he wishes he could give LWJ a baby, and makes comparisons of himself to his own mother from his childhood memories.  I mean, it’s a longing for family more than anything else, and is ultimately resolved when he discovers Lan Sizhui is actually, you know, his son. 

Taking all of that and twisting it into a negative, taking a happy canon gay couple who are married and share an adopted son and making it about how evil the author is for using heteronormative terms IN A LANGUAGE THESE PEOPLE DON’T SPEAK....yeah I think it’s an incredibly ungenerous interpretation that smacks of both racist bias and suspiciously TERF-Y attitudes towards gender and sexual essentialism. 

These same people have a problem with the novel because of Wangxian’s canon kinky sex life.  Which...again the overlap between people who have a problem with consensual kink between adults, anti-fujoshis, and TERFs is...definitely a thing.

And I mean, I love CQL.  That should be clear.  I don’t have a problem with people who just love the drama or love the drama best or don’t want to read the novel.  But understand MDZS has been a fandom for a lot longer than CQL has existed, you’re coming into an established fandom space and then calling people names for the decorating scheme.  And the show that people love is based, EXTREMELY CLOSELY on the novel by the author that they malign.  Which is just such an ungenerous way to behave towards a creator.  A creator who has been heavily censored for writing queer fiction, and would be in danger of arrest if her identity was revealed.  (Not to mention who is subject to a contract that limits the rewards she gets from all these adaptations of her work.  I’m not an expect on JJWXC contracts but she doesn’t own the rights to her work right now and certainly hasn’t been compensated to the extent an author normally would.)

And as far as character interpretations, I mean, as always, that’s up to individual fans.  I could certainly see a very valid interpretation of WWX as genderqueer, though I personally tend to think of them both as male.  Also because they live in a world where gender concepts are quite different to our own.  But absolutely go nuts.  I mean I have written a story in which they are both ace, because I can see that version of the story, even while mostly being someone all about the smut and the kinky canon, very sexual couple from the novel. 

That’s great, that’s fun, that’s what fandom is All About!  It’s about playing with characters and events and worlds and seeing what you can DO with them while still having them be recognizably themselves.  And yet, for some UNKNOWN AND INCOMPREHENSIBLE reason to me, a vocal minority of fandom wants to spend all their time telling other people what they are Doing Wrong and What Not To Do. 

Fandom is all about possibilities.  People who want to limit those possibilities have Missed The Point.  Only this approved form of relationship is allowed because we have scientifically measured what a Healthy Relationship looks like and we don’t want anything too messy or complicated.  The Correct Way to be Gay is This Way and anyone who disagrees is actually homophobic. 

And what’s happening is that instead fandom being a place where everyone is accepted for who they are, regardless of their tastes and opinions, where people can just BE themselves to the fullest extent, people are being shamed and either chased away or reshaped if they don’t fit the Ideal Fan with Correct Opinions.  And as someone who has been around for over 20 years, it makes me very sad.

(Oh, and to actually address your last point, I see WWX as bi-attracted demisexual.  I don’t have hard and fast opinions on LWJ’s a-spec placement except that I see him as gay.)

Sorry for the rant, but, yeah, it Keeps Coming Up and I keep having less and less patience with it.

#replies #discourse #mdzs discourse #mdzs #mdzs meta #purity wank #anti fujoshi wank #purity culture #my meta #takes deep breath and hits publish #my new policy of anon hate will get Offensive Victorian Pornography stands #sixstepsaway

[fandomshatelgbtqpeople]

Once again this blog never fails to throw gay people under the bus. How is! I see Zuko or Sokka as gay in anyway saying that bisexuality doesn’t exist or mai or suki mean nothing? Yall are so obsessed with punishing gay people for shit we didn’t do. If you see someone being biphobic or sexist go tell them something. Stop making these homophobic generic statements! Yall always say we do these things but where is the actual evidence? Actual posts? I bet you its never actually gay men doing it!

Fandom is filled with people saying things like, "You only support or like that gay headcannon or gay ship because of (insert accusation of being racist/biphobic/sexist/etc.)" Like it's completely unfair how you're always rightfully talking about biphobia or sexism or racism in fandom spaces but disregarding or dismissing homophobia.

Okay, we’ve all talked about it and we admit that our handling of this issue over the past day or two has been... clumsy to say the least. I’m going to try to clear it up. I think we’ve all learned some lessons about avoiding unintentional blanket statements and specifying when we’re talking about straight people.

Regardless of what any of our recent posts might make it seem like, ALL of the mods support gay people headcanoning any characters they want as gay. It’s important not to be an asshole to canon female love interests or bi fans with bi headcanons, but gay people shouldn’t be asked to make a sacrifice no one else has to make when it comes to seeing ourselves in our favorite characters.

I have also noticed a recent tendency for fans to jump to accusations of malice when someone has a gay headcanon about a character and it bothers me too. I hope that’s something we’ll get better at addressing. Balancing concerns about homophobia, biphobia, racism, misogyny, etc. can be tricky when different groups of people have competing needs, but that doesn’t excuse us for letting homophobia fall through the cracks. When it comes to ATLA, I’ve been in the fandom for a very long time (the whole time actually) and I know that in particular, the idea that Zuko didn’t care about Mai and was only dating her out of a sense of obligation started in the Zutara fandom and was perpetuated mostly by that fandom for a decade while Zukka was still a tiny niche ship, so it definitely isn’t accurate or fair for gay fans or gay headcanons to be blamed for the fandom’s poor treatment of Mai. The rush to blame gay headcanons for something that’s been widespread since a lot of Zukka shippers were toddlers and that was started and perpetuated by (I’m guessing) mostly straight people in an m/f fandom definitely reads as homophobic to me. Wanting a character to be gay doesn’t automatically mean you think their previous relationships meant nothing and wanting a character to be bi/pan/straight doesn’t automatically mean you’re treating their previous love interests respectfully.

As I mentioned in my recent post, people have different experiences that cause them to find different things meaningful and we all need to do better about understanding that a headcanon that means nothing to us might be incredibly meaningful to the person who came up with it, and it isn’t fair to expect them to change it to something that makes more sense to us. A relationship that seems happy, healthy, and loving to one person might remind someone else of the relationship they had with their high school girlfriend before they came out (and that doesn’t mean it isn’t still based on a type of love!). 

I hope that we’ll do better about this in the future.

mod k

#mod k #homophobia #Anonymous

[hidetothink]

Hi! So, this is something I've been thinking about for a while. I'm a butch lesbian and for the past few years I've been involved in fandom spaces which largely (as I have come to realize) fetishize gay male relationships. I've been giving some thought as to why this appealed to me for so long, and I think I've come to the conclusion that as a butch woman, I don't find canon lesbians (or any female characters at all, really) relatable. I've always related more to gnc and non-hypermasculine (1/2)

men. And being a lesbian, I related to same-sex relationships. And I've realized that the large majority of fandom isn't like this, they're largely straight or bi women with a fetish. So I guess what my question is is, as a gay man, what's your take on fandom shipping? And do you think it's acceptable for me to continue writing m/m ships as I do--I very rarely write explicit sex or anything sensitive--or does this upset or hurt you? I am trying to write more lesbians in my original works. (2/2)

I think fandom shipping CAN be incredibly harmless. At some point it's just fun to enjoy the dynamics between characters, especially same-sex couples when we're gay men and lesbians desperate to feel a sense of belonging in the narrative of the world. And most of the time I'm incredibly comfortable when lesbians are "shipping" same-sex male couples because I just...trust that they get it

I've been shown again and again that lesbians have a respect for not being weird about male/male ships because of their experience being gay

But

Shipping culture is also incredibly homophobic and apathetic to that fact. The fetishization of gay language, relationship dynamics, etc.

And again

As always

I get that it's complicated. That there are reasons why women will engage in these practices, even to the extent of being incredibly insensitive to actual gay and bisexual men and our same-sex relationships

But

As always

"Nice motive, still murder"

I have empathy. But I'm not interested in being a rug and calling it solidarity

As for writing and creating content, I generally trust lesbians to be respectful in writing gay male characters or same-sex relationships between male characters

Though I also prefer when that's not the center of the creative piece itself. The difference between writing a story about BEING a gay man or in a same-sex male relationship vs a story CONTAINING these things

I would not feel in the right writing about BEING a lesbian. Even if I researched and felt I had a great handle on that experience. It feels insensitive. Let lesbians tell their stories

But I think I can, should, and do include lesbians in my creative work because that's representation, not trying to tell another community's experiences

I hope that makes sense?

And as always

1). I appreciate anyone who cares enough to ask

2). That probably means you're in the clear or headed there

3). No one died and made me king gay, my opinion is only one person's. I'm sure other gay men disagree, or have even more stringent thoughts

4). Nuance is difficult but necessary <3

5). If you want to talk more directly, my messages are open

[theclaravoyant]

AN ~ This fic is called “Catharsis” not just on the characters’ behalves, but on mine. I am planning another more nuanced, narrative-integrated exploration of some of these themes but in the moment when I started writing this I kinda Went Off at biphobia. Kevin was the vessel for my protectiveness... and Julia Diaz unfortunately copped the unflattering role of Every I’m-Not-Homophobic-But person I’ve ever met. This is for you grandma :)))))

NOW ON AO3 (~2400wd)

Warnings: This fic has a happy/uplifting ending (*jake peralta voice* I CATHARTED) but it does deal with themes of homophobia and biphobia, including a reference to AIDS. If you would like to know more detail about the fic’s contents before diving in, message me and I’m happy to chat.

Prompt: 4. “I know you didn’t ask for this.”

Fandom: Brooklyn 99 - featuring Rosa Diaz, Kevin Cozner, Julia Diaz, Jake Peralta, with background Holt x Kevin and Rosa x Jocelyn. 

Rated: T

Tags: Platonic Relationships, Angst, Angst with a Happy Ending, Hurt/Comfort, Homophobia, Biphobia, AIDS reference.

-

Catharsis

“Rosa?”

She knew that voice. She ignored it.

“Rosa, mi niña…”

She glared at her report. Corrected a typo with an aggressive stab at the keyboard.

“Uh, excuse me, Detective Diaz?”

She gritted her teeth, and forced her lips into a wide twist on a hospitable smile. In an overly sweet tone that bristled for all to hear, she invited –

“Detective Peralta, can you assist Mrs Diaz please?”

“Uhh. Sure.”

Jake looked uncertainly between Rosa and her mother, but stepped forward. Rosa knew when she needed protecting and if this was one of those times then he would offer what he could. He couldn’t imagine what she was going through, after she and her mother had tried to talk about it again and had come to another explosive loggerhead. Still, he was not too sure of his place in all this. He wanted to give Julia a good scolding, but given that she was Rosa’s mother it probably wouldn’t be intimidating in the slightest by comparison. Plus, he had to remind himself, it was probably not his place. Rosa could scold her own mother. And now he was getting side-tracked.

“How can I help you, Mrs Diaz?”

Fortunately, the fact that Julia was still very keen on watching her daughter and apparently cared very little about Jake’s question, or presence at all, became side-tracked all on its own when the elevator doors opened and the newly-demoted Officer Holt arrived back from lunch with Kevin. It was not exactly a daily occurrence, but not irregular around these parts; still, the squad usually would have clamoured all over them for the day’s instalment of juicy wedding-planning gossip were it not for the never-before-seen Diaz family throwdown emanating a distracting amount of tension in the middle of the room.

At first the newcomers were unfazed, and Kevin opened the gate to the bull pen and gestured – with an arm full of flowers and a tiny but glowing smile - for Raymond to proceed him through. They would have happily continued in this distracted bliss, letting the team resolve whatever drama was going down, were it not for the fact that the lilies in Kevin’s arms and the slightest brush of his hand against Raymond’s arm as he passed made the two of them suddenly relevant to said drama.

It started small, just a little – Jake would have had to call it a wince, from Julia. She kind of, curled up her nose a bit, and Jake was reminded of the time he’d punched his former literary hero in the face.

Do not. Punch. Rosa’s. Mother, he commanded of himself, and of course he wasn’t going to, but after dinner and games night and the fight about Jocelyn and knowing the reason for no cop talk at parties and seeing how things like that sneer infected the lives of his friends, he couldn’t just stand there, and so it slipped out – his place or not -

“You’ve got to be kidding me.”

Julia baulked. “I just don’t think it’s appropriate for a workplace, that’s all.”

“What?” Jake frowned. Why did this keep surprising him?

“What?”

Rosa’s version was not so much confused, as cold. It was sharp – near ruthless. All the fear and pain and seething she had felt etched into her these past few months she spat into her words as she got up from her desk and stalked around it, closer to her mother.

“They’re coming back from a date,” she growled. “Kevin is Holt’s husband. They’ve been together for thirty years.”

Julia at least had the sense to look impressed by this, which quelled the biting fury and the stinging sense of rejection inside Rosa, if only a little. She shouldn’t need to shove wholesome couple after wholesome couple down her mother’s throat for her to get it, but at least it was something. At least it was something. She swallowed, and prayed that this would be over quickly. Of course, it wouldn’t. Not least because the next thing her mother said made her want to start digging a pit to the centre of the earth and never return.

“Well, that makes sense, dear. They were probably the only two left.”

“Ex-cuse me?” Holt interjected.

“Mom, oh my god,” Rosa protested, her stomach churning.

“IIIII don’t understand enough about what’s going on here to be standing where I’m standing,” Jake babbled, because he’d somehow ended up in an uncomfortably prominent position in a very tense, angry circle of Strong Feelings. He scurried out of the way, back behind some desks, and half expected Holt and Rosa to leap into the space he’d left and go after Julia like it was some kind of cage match.

But no.

It was Kevin.

Cool, calm, collected Kevin who was just starting to bristle around the edges and who had a sharpness to his glare, and to his tongue, that anyone in the room besides perhaps Holt would be hard pressed to say they’d ever seen in him before. Jake had. When they were being hunted by Sean Murphy, and Kevin had been trying and failing to protect his husband.

“Excuse me,” he said. “Mrs – Diaz, is it?”

She knew she was in for something, but nodded.

“I’m sure you understand that I don’t appreciate your making light of my relationship,” he continued. “Nor of a very serious disease that took several of Raymond’s and my friends away from us a very young age. Many younger, if I may point out, than Detective Diaz there.”

“I’m so sorry,” Julia apologised, and it could not be said that any part of that was faked. She just hadn’t thought of it quite like that. But the thought of her little girl succumbing to such a horrible disease only made her throat close up and her fears feel more prickly and urgent and intense. “I didn’t mean any offence. You can’t choose who you are.”

“Perhaps not,” Kevin rebutted, “but if I could, I like to believe that I would choose Raymond every time, and he me.”

Julia blinked. “You wouldn’t want to have a family?”

“Raymond is my family.”

“But… wouldn’t it be easier… I mean, if you liked both, wouldn’t being with a woman be easier?”

“Not always. For example, not all women would feel comfortable with the fact that I also enjoyed the company of men.”

There was a beat of eye contact between them, and Julia cleared her throat.

“…Well,” she said, somewhat quieter this time. “You wouldn’t have to tell anyone.”

Rosa wrapped her arms around herself, under the guise of crossed arms. The mask of irritation she had put up began to crack as she replayed the argument with her mother in her mind. It was Jocelyn that her mother couldn’t take seriously; it was always she’s a nice girl, but, like Rosa failed to grasped the concept of settling down. It was always nice, always compliments, so it was hard to explain how much it hurt. Few people in the room knew how that felt. Jake, at least, took note of the tears that were starting to burn her eyes, and shuffled a little closer to her. He was still a whole desk away but somehow she breathed a little easier at that.

Then Kevin met her eyes.

He had been about to turn back; to retreat from a conversation that was deeply uncomfortable and that might not be his place. He wanted nothing more in this moment than to shut himself in Raymond’s office – or even better, their home – and forget he’d ever poked this particular bear.

Then, across the circle, he’d seen her.

He’d seen Rosa, and her arms across her chest, the sheen of tears in her eyes as she tried to look neither away from, nor directly at the scene in front of her.

In her, he saw himself, in church, as a boy. He saw himself, in class, as a student, learning about Achilles and Patroclus and knowing he couldn’t say what he was thinking. He saw himself at his brother’s wedding, looking out at the crowd of people that had gathered to celebrate and wondering – knowing, at the time, or so it had felt – that such a crowd would never turn out for him.

And perhaps it was the fact that he and Raymond had just come back from booking the florist for a ceremony he’d once thought impossible, that sent a pain careering through Kevin’s chest like an arrow. It certainly did not help matters that they’d just started putting together the guest list and seating chart for the wedding, and his father was not on it. And worst of all, was the acute sense of bitterness that he remembered all too well, that had tainted his father’s last breath, when he had told Kevin that he loved him for the first, the last, and the only time since the day he’d come out.

He had tears in his eyes by the time he turned his attention back to Julia. She glanced between him, and over her shoulder at Rosa. There was something between these two, that much she understood. Could the gay thing really run that deep?

“Mrs Diaz,” Kevin said, and it was clearly taking a lot to keep his voice steady. Julia turned back to him, solemn and intrigued as he took a deep breath and spoke – not only on his own behalf, but on her daughter’s as well.

“I know you didn’t ask for this,” he said. “But your daughter is trying to share something with you that is very important to her. She is trying the best she can to share her life with you. It might be difficult to understand but please, please believe that the love you feel for your husband – that is the same love she is capable of feeling. Maybe for a woman. Maybe even for Jocelyn. That’s all she’s trying to tell you. And you should listen. And you should treasure her with all your heart. Because I know for a fact how it feels when that revelation comes too late.”

He let it land, and all of a sudden his knees felt weak beneath him. He marched past Raymond and out of the bull pen into the lift before the shock of what he’d just done could wear off enough to collapse him.

The others watched him go: most were baffled by his unusually vivid emotiveness, but Rosa for one was grateful. Jake hugged himself a little tighter; protectiveness over his friends warring with crappy-dad sympathy to make one super uncomfortable feelings-cocktail. Julia was a little hurt, a little stunned, a little intrigued. Holt, as per usual, took the unusual turn of events in his stride. He held up a wrist and explained:

“Kevin’s father gave me this watch the day he died. After twenty-two years of not tolerating my presence in his home, he apologised, and he wished us luck.” Luck. He snorted. “My father died when I was younger, before I met Kevin, but my mother has always loved and supported me - every part of me, and of the two of us – and believe me when I say I would not be where I am without that love and support. Do not underestimate your power.”

Julia nodded. Maybe, just maybe, it was starting to sink in.

“I know you love your daughter very much, Mrs Diaz,” Holt continued, a little more gently now – but only a little - “and she loves you. It would be a shame to let that go to waste. But I’m sure you know that. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m needed elsewhere.”

He gave Julia a pointed stare before exiting the bull pen to track down and comfort Kevin.

Julia took a deep breath, and let it out slowly. If nothing else, it was comforting to know that her daughter had a very protective group of friends and colleagues. And the passion with which they all spoke about each other. And the watch…

When Rosa had walked out on her, Julia had feared for just a second, that her daughter might never speak to her again. It had been one of the most frightening moments of her life, and though it had passed blissfully quickly at the time, she couldn’t help but reflect on it now. And on Holt’s words. And on the gaping wounds their arguments seemed to leave in her. She was only trying to love her daughter, to want what was best for her. But if she stayed on this path, this dark future of bitterness and grief, how could that possibly be better? Wouldn’t she prefer to see her daughter carry herself with pride, smile at the one she loved, open the door for them and carry the bouquet they’d presented her and brush arms with subtle love on their return from a lunch date?

Julia turned to face her daughter, to find her midway through wiping tears from her face.

“I love you, mi niña,” she whispered. “And if Jocelyn makes you happy – then I am happy for you. And I’m going to try harder to understand.”

“Okay,” Rosa said, her voice wobbling dangerously. She cleared her throat. “And yeah. Jocelyn does make me happy. I dunno about marrying her yet but. You know. We’ll see I guess.”

Short sentences. Still not quite crying. Nailing it.

Fortunately, that was part of her daughter that her mother did understand, or at least was used to. She did not push Rosa for more, simply picked up her handbag.

“I got a new extension to Trivial Pursuit,” she said. “Your father and I would love to play it this Friday if you’re available. Bring your friends, of course - or perhaps… Jocelyn?”

Sick and dizzy as she felt at the barrage of emotion, Rosa’s stomach flipped. She was lucky she was not a naturally smiley person, or she might just have given herself away because all of a sudden her heart was screaming IT’S ALL I EVER WANTED, which was of course, an exaggeration, but after months and months of the most awful tension of her life it was like falling away like a mudslide. Is this what relief felt like?

“I’ll think about it,” she said.

Julia nodded, and took her leave.

#fictober19 #rosa diaz #kevin cozner #brooklyn 99 #b99fic #holt x kevin #rosa x jocelyn #b99squad #clara's fic tag #homophobia #biphobia

[bigskydreaming]

lesbianscottsummers replied to your post:

Jfc. Okay, let me be perfectly fucking clear,...

I just wanna day as an inc*st survivor myself I’m so sorry what has happened to you, what these anons are putting you through, and what they will undoubtably continue to put you through. I’m here if you ever need to vent/talk/etc ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜❤️

*hugs to you for your shit as well* 

Thanks, I appreciate it, but honestly I’ll be fine. The thing none of these anons ever get is how fucking powerless and pointless they are. Its like....LMFAO, I’ve survived abuse, rape, and a gaybashing. You really think your shitty little hostile messages are what’s going to break me or shut me up? LOL, please. You’re embarrassing yourselves. The most they’ve ever managed is being obnoxious gnats that are hard to swat and annoy the shit out of me.

Tbh, its not the anons that really bother me. Its the silence about their behavior. I’ve been out here catching shit like this for years...and so does most every other survivor I know who’s vocal about their trauma and how unsupported they feel by the very fandoms that pay the most lip service to caring about abuse, rape and rape culture. Not to mention all my friends of color who are vocal about racism, etc, etc.

And yet how many non-survivors (most white, because let’s be real, the vast majority of other ‘antis’ who are non-survivors themselves are people of color due to the overlap between people who fetishize and invalidate racial generational trauma and people who fetishize and invalidate survivor trauma of all types and individuals).....like, time and time again, you hear about ‘anti’ behavior and how disruptive it is to fandoms....with this signalboosted and perpetuated by people who just claim they want to ‘stay out of it’ and be civil and mannered and can’t we all just get along....

Well, no. We fucking can’t.....because the day some of us, whether survivors, people of color, nonbinary or trans individuals, started to say “hey, there are elements of fandom that actively are HARMFUL and ostracizing to us” a lot of people decided they just didn’t want to hear that, and only peeked their heads up to acknowledge when ‘antis’ rocked the boat a little too loudly.

But yeah, its only us who go around harassing people, never the other way around. At least, that’s the impression anyone would get from looking at any of the blogs of people who just want everyone to be nice and civil to each other....but only seem to get the alert when that goes in the direction that requires zero action on their part.

I mean, just speaking strictly to matters pertaining to being an abuse/rape survivor, I’m just so fucking sick of hearing all the lip service about how “I support survivors”.....from people who then make it clear that only is actionable for them WHEN NO ACTION IS ACTUALLY REQUIRED.

Hence why there’s always that tiny little qualifier in arguments around various forms of ‘anti’ discourse.....stuff pertaining to rape, incest and pedophilia fetishization....so many people when they say they support survivors in fandom ACTUALLY seem to mean “well I really MOSTLY support the survivors who say they write these things to cope, because even though I don’t ship or read or write these things myself, I support their right to do so, as opposed to those other ‘anti’ survivors’ right to have fandom experiences that don’t require being IMMERSED 24/7 in romanticized reminders of their own traumas.’

*Shrugs* I’m sick of it. I’ve watched it happen for YEARS, being right in the middle of it, and no one can tell me this isn’t EXACTLY what’s been happening for all this time, and why so many fandoms have remained exactly the way they are, problems and all, with zero effort to change or be more inclusive of all the people on the margins for various reasons saying “HEY WHAT ABOUT US”....and then turning around and patting themselves on the back for being so civilized, so courteous, so ABOVE descending into the kind of barbaric behavior that only antis are guilty of. Never the reverse. Never the things that INSPIRE our anger or vitriol as a reaction to the fact that we’re just trying to fucking EXIST in fandom spaces and everyone else who was just fine with the way things are now saying “no, change doesn’t actually work for us, because that means....effort?”

How can you say you support survivors if you never actually DO anything supportive? How can you say you support people of color if you never actually SPEAK UP for them when you see or are surrounded by blatantly evident racism? How can you say you support LGBTQ+ individuals if your READING PREFERENCES are more of a priority to you than their living experiences?

I’m not pissed off about the barrage of insects in my inbox, honestly. 

I’m pissed off by the crickets that resound from everyone who at other times is first in line to say “I absolutely support xyz! Just, y’know, in that quiet, invisible way that’s more enabling of toxic, harmful, racist, homophobic, transphobic and rape-culture tropes and individuals than like....the actual people I’m claiming to actually support.”

Here’s a “if a tree falls in the middle of the forest and no one’s around to hear it, does it make a sound” for the social media age:

“If your support can’t be pointed to, quantified, singled out, observed, identified, or in any way meaningfully proven to exist....then DOES IT?”

Idk. I mean, I just really love how in just the few months I’ve been an active presence in this particular fandom, I’ve garnered a reputation of being unreasonable and disruptive and overly aggressive....all while sticking ENTIRELY to my own blog, not going NEAR any tags, only jumping on someone else’s post a grand total of three times that I can think of....and all while my own fandom related posts are continually garnering hundreds and even thousands of notes and being spread around by people who at the same time actively avoid interacting with me as an individual because I’m ‘unpleasant’.....as opposed to all the big name incest shippers who well, even if someone doesn’t ship those icky things themselves, at least they can say those incest and pedophilia shippers are a lot less disruptive and unpleasant to be around and know how to be polite and well-mannered.

LOLOL.

When civility is indistinguishable from apathy, you’ve fucking missed the entire freaking point of civility. 

THAT’S why I don’t bother blunting myself with it, when I don’t particularly feel civil. Because its become pointless. People have fucking WEAPONIZED it to use it to silence people, and that’s so gross to me. Nobody benefits from that unless they’re already benefiting from the status quo, and the status quo is fucking gross to me too.

My question, to all the people who see things they think are wrong and never say a damn word about it...is and will always be:

WHY????

[arofili]

Just curious what your point is then, (in that post about Good Omens rep) that you think the person who replied was missing? Because my own "no, not like that!" about the supposed lgbtq rep in Good Omens is precisely what I think they were getting at too: none of it is truly explicit, and i see no proof of intent in crafting it from Gaiman or anyone else officially creating for the show, and Gaiman himself sees it as just one way to interpret the text.

hey! thanks for being polite :) i may not have been as clear as i thought i was, lol.

from what i’ve seen there’s been no shying away from the “homoerotic” (for lack of a better term) tension between C&A, not from the actors or from neilman? i have seen gifs of tennant and sheen talking about C&A as a couple (i may be misremembering! but that was the impression i got) and neilman’s affirmation of queer interpretations since before the tv show was in the making is proof of intent to me, at least.

(side note: whatever sheen and tennant were acting, i don’t think that in and of itself is makes the rep canon...it’s about as canon as the hobbit fandom seems to think bagginshield is, lmao, which is to say “better than nothing but still not much”)

i’m not super plugged in to twitter, but neilman’s acceptance of everyone’s interpretations to me says: “yes, i am fully aware this reads as very queer; we may not have intended that when writing the book but we knew about it coming into the show and deliberately included it; however it would be inappropriate to claim that we planned this when writing the book and want to remain faithful to that aspect.”

Basically, he is doing the inverse of a JKR: not claiming retconned representation but actively encouraging queer interpretations. that doesn’t mean he’s going to dunk on people who see them as straight (though interpreting them as straight is...Beyond Me) because he’s not, idk, an Asshole,

i think neilman patting himself on the back in his responses to thanks from queer viewers is...egregious, tbh. but the backlash i’m seeing, claiming C&A as queerbaiting and neilman as homophobic, is fucking Always in response to him endorsing an a-spectrum reading of C&A’s relationship. some folks just Dont Want Aces And Aros To Have Nice Things!

looking at their relationship, i cannot say it is anything other than queer. the specifics of that queerness are left up to interpretation, but it is so fucking queer. and yes! explicit queer rep is good and important! but queer vagueness can be good representation too. that’s what i think this is, queer vagueness, not queerbaiting.

i find comfort in vague queerness, and queercoding too to some extent. as an aromantic asexual nonbinary person, the odds of me getting something to represent me in all those areas is Extremely Unlikely, so instead i cling to “vague” representation and implications.

it’s rare that i see queer vagueness done intentionally like it is in Good Omens; usually i end up projecting onto characters like Legolas or Luke Skywalker &etc that are also easily interpreted as gay but not written that way on purpose. (which is another tangential subject i have a Lot of opinions on, but let’s stay in our lane why don’t we)

i think we’ve focused so much on explicit queer rep (which again! is a good thing!) that we ignored characters and relationships that fall into gray spaces that are still very much nonnormative. those are good too, those are wide-reaching and provide ground for transformative works, those are also wonderful places for questioning people to experiment.

representation shouldn’t be one-size-fits-all. we should have lots of options. i see now, after writing this mini essay, that i jumped into that post with the idea that it was obvious that there’s more to representation than labels, but it isn’t obvious, and i hope my explanation makes sense.

also: there is ample canon evidence (within the book) for queerness on the part of C&A. aziraphale intentionally presents in a way that aligns himself with the gay community; angels and demons don’t have sex or gender unless they are really trying; the lack of sexual feelings is apparent and imo if you’re going to interpret their relationship as romantic (which is cool, even if it’s not my personal headcanon) you have to acknowledge that this is the only time either of them have had this experience (making them arospec)

ignoring all those things and getting mad about them not kissing is reductive of the queer experience. not every kind of queer is gay. nonbinary, ace, and arospec representation is queer representation. and there is more to any queer identity than just kissing; queer is identity and rebellion and community and self-expression and refusing to fit into the norm, all things that both crowley and aziraphale represent and embody. that in itself is (vague) queer representation, outside of their relationship.

i’ve written too many words and need to focus on the actual essay i have to turn in for class tomorrow, but i hope this makes sense!

#long post #............i don't want to get into a fight about this but i'm okay with good faith discussion so. #keep in mind if you want to talk to me that i Can't Shut Up and my responses will be long af like this one lmao #4- #5- #good omens #anon #answers