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#Personally I think nah
Starlo's personality
I'm still confused about this man's 'true self,' gotta admit. How much of 'himself' IS there in 'North Star'?
What we know about real Star:
He's a nerd/geek obsessed with westerns; that's where he got the inspiration to build WE
He looks different than with the hat on and used to wear braces
Was shy in his teenage years around Ceroba (no idea how he acted normally) + couldn't confess to her
His mom (after killing him) says how he's never been the one to follow rules. I wonder what she meant by that. Rules, like, you're supposed to hate humans like everyone else or rules, like, no sneaking off to practice your shooting and lasso skills? Both?
Ed describes the 'old him' as a fearless leader and as a monster who could 'make his own fun in the little things' (you mean he used to be more humble but at the same time remained an ambitious risk-taker?)
Is insecure about where he comes from and what he looks like
We don't have enough info to know what he was like as a kid. I'm curious if absolutely everything about North Star is the opposite of Starlo (I don't think it is); both are kind and protective. Still, I can't help but wonder if the Starlo after Showdown, in both routes, is the real him or not. Maybe 50% yes and 50% no
Just from the end credits, the only thing I got about him was that he's kind and friendly and optimistic and charming (North Star is this way too, but more exaggerated). Nothing new
So maybe Starlo IS North Star, but more modest (aka not as exaggerated)
I'm curious about your thoughts guys.
Also I forgot to mention how he wanted to plan a PARTY for Kanako, in neutral says that the PARTY in the saloon was great (and the letter he sent was pretty charming), wants to accompany Ceroba in the Steamworks, is open about how he feels (immediately openly confronts Ceroba and calls her out; he's assertive), not afraid to get physical if it means protecting Clover & Martlet, can be pretty loud (like when he spotted Clover after sparing him in neutral, he was like "DEPUTY!!!"
I'm left wondering if all this is the real him or not. I think it is. Just maybe toned down a bit :) It's the only explanation for the fact he's been doing all this for a really long time and never showing signs of wanting to stop/that it exhausted him
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lazylittledragon · 2 months
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if i had a nickel for every au spawned from twitter that i SWORE i was going to be normal about
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Damn does this guy have to do everything in this goddamn house
He gotta house Gwen he gotta build a watch he gotta teach Miles about his powers he gotta leave the watch for Gwen he gotta make some more for the squad he gotta save they relationship
What's next?? He gotta pick up your groceries too? 😭😭 clean your doors and polish your floors? Kill Miguel with his bare hands?
Can my mans relax 😩😩😩 how about we let the girl grow and repair her relationships herself huh?
How about we give Hobie a movie of his own where he can do shit for himself without having to fix other people's nonsense first how's about that is that okay
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unholybinchicken · 1 month
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ca$h and spider are kind of each other's foils if you think about it...
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both ca$h and spider come from households where they're raised by single maternal figures but they're so different in the relationships they have with those figures and how those relationships impact the way they treat the people around them.
ca$h's nan always supports him, even when he gets sent to jail and ultimately believes that he's innocent and a good, kind person who wouldn't hurt a fly, regardless of the trouble he gets in. even the first time we meet her, it's "my grandson's done nothing wrong", even though we know she has no idea if that's true or not, she's willing to lie to the cops and will always give ca$h the benefit of the doubt no matter what.
contrast that with spider's mum, who constantly puts him down and has so much hatred towards him because he wasn't the daughter she wanted and not only genuinely believes that he's a future rapist, but has no qualms about expressing that belief to a teenage girl she's just met casually over lunch.
spider does have moments where he's kind towards the girls, but he also lies about hooking up with quinni (body-shaming her in the process) and uses ableist language towards her when she calls him out on it, he repeatedly bullies amerie, he's transphobic towards darren, he's involved in falsely accusing jojo, a black female teacher, of being a sexual predator to get out of a class he doesn't like, he verbally abuses jojo and gets in her personal space, he victim-blames malakai, not to mention all the t*te-wannabe rhetoric he spouts during his school captain campaign. it's only when people (outside of voss) start to express that they believe in him that he actually starts to realise he's been acting like a dick.
ca$h has so many outside influences and since there's a lot of toxic masculinity in eshay culture as well, he could have very easily fallen down the cumlords pipeline too but he doesn't. his nan is a firm, no-bullshit person but will always stand by him and i think that's reflected in how he treats his friends. i especially liked his dynamic with quinni this season and hope we get to see more.
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cursedzucchini · 1 year
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DC x DP prompt #5
This is so dumb but Danny is Bruce's uncle.
And not in the Danny is old or whatever, no, my dude is 15 looks like he's 13 and when he was running away from home, he met this really really old lady which looked at him, looked at his wounds and went "aight I'm adopting u"
Danny thought she was a ghost and this was her obsession, so imagine his surprise when it turned out that not only this lady was alive, but also supposedly from very influential family??? Danny wasn't sure Abt that one, bc he himself never heard abt these "Waynes" like that just sounds weird, but hey. It made the lady happy so.
Anyway they part ways, bc the lady only wanted to adopt not care, and Danny decides, hey now that I have a new fam, maybe i should get to know them or something?
Well imagine his surprise when he found out some guy in his fifties is supposedly his nephew and has like bazillion kids.
Idk what happens next yada yada sheniganas happen and than Danny ends up in Gotham. And meets Bruce Wayne. Who obviously sees young child w si gns of abuse, black hair, blue eyes and is immidietly like "aight I'm adopting u" (like grandma like grandson huh)
Only this time, Danny is sure he isn't a ghost, and has a counter argument "u can't adopt me I'm ur uncle" and immidietly flees bc dealing w his problems isn't something he does.
Cue confused batfam or stuff idk, I'm so tired and this is just an excuse for crack
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Hello, I really love how you seem to have such a good read on RoR characters! Kinda shy asking this because I swore I read Record of Ragnarok for the action and backstories but it’s hard to contain my simping…. (๑꒪̇⌄꒪̇๑)
May I request some headcanons for Poseidon x a shy but kind human fem!MC? The idea I had in mind was that some thousands of years ago, Aphrodite, annoyed with Poseidon’s indifference to her charms, “cursed” him with a soulmate. This soulmate turned out to be MC who wasn’t even born yet back then. The plot will take place sometime before the actual human vs. gods battles start, so maybe during some preparation period where they’re setting up the stadium and all that? During this period, the human audience had already been “teleported” there (I don’t think they ever elaborated on how the humans all just end up watching the ragnarok) MC is one of these humans and coincidentally happened upon Poseidon during her stay. Of course, the soulmate stuff won’t magically make Poseidon have a complete change on humankind, but I was hoping he’d gradually soften up to her even if he won’t admit it.
As for what kind of soulmate AU, maybe the type where the first words your soulmate says to you is inscribed somewhere on your body? I think it’ll be fun to have her say something to him, he realizes but doesn’t say anything back so she just doesn’t know until much later.
Hopefully this isn’t too detailed or convoluted (๑•́‧̫•̀๑) And thank you so much in advance if you decide to write this! And if it’s not too much to ask, please don’t kill off Poseidon, but I also don’t want Sasaki to die either… maybe Poseidon will choose to forfeit (after fighting at first) because his soulmate is amongst the humans that will be eliminated if gods win? •ू(ᵒ̴̶̷᷄ωᵒ̴̶̷᷅*•ू) )੭ु⁾⁾
THIS REQUEST IS SO CUTE OMG!? I'M MORE THAN HAPPY TO WRITE THIS FOR YOU BUT ALSO, UR SO VALID FOR WANTING NIETHER OF THEM TO DIE, IDK WHY BUT THIS ANIME MAKES ME ATTATCHED TO BOTH THE GODS AND THE HUMANS-
Either way, I hope I did well, this was my first time writing for Poseidon!
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- Consider how vain these two can be sometimes, it's only natural that they would butt heads often but when Poseidon dared to claim that Aphrodite truth wasn't as fair as she claimed herself- no, that she KNEW herself to be- she just couldn't allow this injustice to stand.
- He cherished absolutely nothing, he appreciated absolutely nothing. So she took it upon herself to change that. After all, it was HER who was the Goddess of Love. So she decided to pull a little trick
- Now, lets flashforward (to modern? ancient? Idk, man, heaven time??) and Poseidon has been summoned to his match. A match he felt was pointless but, whatever, who was he to deny his brother?
- Gracing the God's hall and going to his room to prepare and shield himself from sharing the same air as humans; imagine his surprise when he sees you.
- You're pathetic. Skittish, looking around like a confused mutt, and looking as disgusting as the rest of your kind. He knows your human alone and he's offended that you had the AUDACTIY to walk INTO THE AREA WHERE THE GOD'S RESIDE, AND EVEN STAND IN FRONT OF HIS DOOR.
- In reality, you weren't trying to piss anyone off. You had gotten separated from the rest of the humans and accidentally found yourself in a part of the arena you weren't familiar with.
- You were so relieved when you looked and saw another person in the hallway with you! Maybe you could ask them for directions. Poseidon did not know why you were approaching him so casually but he did NOT like it, like, AT ALL.
- Since your soulmates, maybe the reason why you don't feel his threatening aura like other gods and humans do is because some part of you just can't find it in you to fear him. He takes this as a sign of disrespect.
- You do feel anxious, however, he was such an attractive man but he absolutely did not look pleased to see you and you assumed he was just having a bad day.
- "H-Hello, I don't mean to trouble you!" You call out, your voice quiet and filled with uncertainty.
- He narrows his eyes at you, absolutely enraged by the idea of you approaching him so casually. You filthy little worm, he should destroy right-
- But then he takes a look at his wrist, he doesn't know why he does, a subconscious decision perhaps. But he side eyes you...odd, he makes sure to check his wrist. Oh well, he may as well grant you a few seconds of life.
- Then he checks his wrist and sees that the very first words you said to him...were on it. He looks from his wrist to you, who has no idea what's going on and honestly just wanted to find a way out of this big hallway.
- "U-Um, sir? I-I'm sorry, but do you know the way out?"
- He merely narrows his eyes at you before summoning his trident into his hands and thats when you realize; you're standing before a God. He says nothing to you and you instantly want to apologize but before you could, he just points in his trident into the direction he came from.
- You look at him, scared and confused, and he continues to stare at you with cold eyes. When he doesn't say or do anything for a few minutes you finally realized he was pointing the direction out.
- You apologize for the trouble and run like hell, his gaze following you.
- He observes you closely after that, believing this may be some kind of mistake. Thats why he didn't say anything to you, because a part of him was nervous. But he was mostly angry.
- It showed by when he barged into Aphrodite's room to DEMAND her what trickery she had stuped too and to undo it, she just smiles slyly and asks him: "What trickery?~"
- After some frustrating interrogation that goes NOWHERE...he finds himself staring at you quiet often, the mortals all cowering in fear when they feel his divine prescence. Not you, though, you never seem to notice him until you follow their stares and see his cold eyes, staring you down like you were gum under his new shoes.
- It's a very odd exchange, overall. Everyday, he'd show up at the most random of times and causing a stir among everyone else but yourself. Sometimes it'd even be multiple visits a day. Either way it confused you because the matches hadn't even started and already, you had somehow invoked a God's wrath.
- At least, that's what you thought at first until you noticed that he never did anything to really threaten your safety. Yes, watching you was a bit odd, but you find that you aren't really all that nervous about it anymore. Especially since with every visit, you believe that his gaze softens when they're set upon you.
- He kept his distance at first but then, once you started to take notice of him, you'd offer him to sit next to you as you sat in the beautiful fields that surrounded the arena or would be reading in one of the vast nearby libraries. Originally he would just walk away and as time went on he slowly began to warm up to you.
- Like a cat. tbh.
- He couldn't help it, at least, it FELT like he couldn't help it. He didn't know if it was your bond as soulmates, the unyielding kindness that he originally saw as foolish and niave, or overall just your quiet nature until you saw your friends.
- Either way, the more he began to see you, the more he could look past your flaws (which was being a human) and start to appreciate the things about you the made you beautiful.
- Don't get me wrong, he was definetly in denial for the longest time so he would kinda start off with small things. Like it goes from: "Oh, at least they bowed their head to my statue, thats a redeemable quality, at least." to "She is the epitome of perfection♡"
- You wouldn't really ever know that Poseidon's feelings towards you have grown, he hides it very well behind that stoic face that he wears and he hasn't even really spoken to you, yet. He doesn't know why but he feels like...the time isn't right. Despite his growing feelings, he truly isn't ready to accept a human as his soulmate yet.
- You just assumed he didn't talk much so you never pushed him too. Yeah, it mightve been a bit awkward at first but you appreciated his prescence, it brought you a new sense of comfort and peace that you never felt, not even when you were alive.
- When you made flower crowns in the gardens, you'd ask if you could decorate his trident for him and he gave you a deadpan stare before nodding his head in approval. He'd silently gesture you to follow him and show you a private pool whenever a say seemed a bit too hot for you and watch as you played in it, a soft smile growing on his face.
- He would even feel a bit of anger when he was with his fellow gods, listening to them generalize their hatred towards humanity. Usually Poseidon would join them but he couldn't bring himself too. After all, humanity was pesky and troublesome but some of them weren't that bad.
- They could be sweet, they could be unfailingly kindhearted and empathetic...They could be you. So he'd just glare distastefully but never say anything, but he didn't need to as everyone slowly stopped talking after sensing they somehow upset him.
- He spent a lot of his time with you during the days that led up to his match, you were unsure of who to root for; since it's true that humanity would be wiped out if the God's continued to win but at the same time, you didn't want to see Poseidon get hurt.
- He picked you out from the crowd immediately and made eye contact with you, not even acknowledging his opponent as he stepped into the ring.
- Did he still look down on humanity? Yes. But...he supposed there were some good aspects to it. Good aspects like you.
- As the mythical creatures and gods from his side cheered him on, shouting insults towards the humans, and telling him to destroy them like the ants they were: his eyes were locked on your (e/c) eyes before he finally made a decision. Internally, he had just lost a battle within himself in that moment...but he wasn't upset about it.
- So he interrupts Heimdall's introduction speeches as he addresses the whole crowd, "I FORFIET THIS MATCH!"
- Shock and bafflement was all that could be heard from both sides of the arena. They couldn't have possibly heard him right, though, after all: He was Poseidon, the beautiful God of the Sea, there was no way he would just-
- Then he looked at you and your heart leapt at hearing his voice for the first time. His eyes became gentle as they stared into yours, "I will fight for humanity. For some of you are worthy yet."
- You didn't respond for a bit, not noticing how the words "I will fight for humanity" appeared on your wrist, but he did. And he knew that even if Aphrodite had "cursed" him, that it truly didn't bother him. You were made for him. His perfect mortal♡
- This was only proven when you broke out of your shocked trance faster than anyone and cheered his name happily, your shyness lost as you joyfully cheered his name, causing him to visibly smile in front of everyone.
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Thinking again about how Cleopatra (1963) made Octavian the villain, but skipped his proscriptions, slaughters at Philippi and Perusia, policies that accidentally caused a famine, ditching his second wife the day she gave birth, backstabbing Sextus Pompeius, stealing Gaul from Antony, possibly trying to assassinate Antony, and "forgetting" his promise to provide Antony with troops.
Instead, they made him ambiguously gay/asexual, and Antony insults him repeatedly. The above image is Antony offering to set him up on a gay(?) date, then deriding him for "not knowing how to live" when he declines. Some of Antony's more admirable moments, like the time he saved Octavian's life, are removed. So for 90% of the film it just looks like Antony bullying some random blond guy. And it's not that the filmmakers lacked for time - this movie is four hours long!
Yet we're clearly supposed to sympathize more with Antony, the "real man" who's aggressive, passionate, sexual, and forthright. Octavian is soft-spoken, calculating, devoid of affection or sexuality, and has more delicate and effeminate mannerisms. It is this lack of "manliness," not his real-life abhorrent deeds, that signals he is the antagonist. We do eventually get him stabbing a random messenger and declaring war on Antony, but that's very late in the film, and most of Antony and Cleopatra's downfall comes of their own mistakes.
I don't actually hate this portrayal. In fact, I really enjoyed the movie and Octavian's actor. The main theme seemed to be "Love was their downfall," rather than demonizing queer people, and Antony and Cleopatra have their own flaws. Octavian also came across to me as more practical and competent than any of the heterosexual characters. It's almost like the film is saying straight people shouldn't be rulers!
But it's less funny that I still see people make homophobic or ableist jokes about Octavian, instead of criticizing what he actually did. It's not cowardice to be too sick to enter battle; it's not weakness or embarrassing to be feminine.
I'd like to see a film where Octavian is a villain because he acts like the ruthless, vengeful, controlling, power-hungry opportunist he really was. I'd love a film that could give us a fuller picture of his good and bad qualities, but that's a hard task for any writer, even in the bigger space of a novel. He's just a complicated guy.
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cptn-jtk · 10 months
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good omens fans: "the gays are winning!"
the gays:
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gentil-minou · 8 months
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Wei Wuxian with a little eldritch guy hanging off his shoulder telling him to be bad but WWX just pats its little demonic head and say don't worry sweetie I'll feed you when we get home.
It's a really snarly looking fella and Wei Wuxian just coos at it and calls it cute pet names and gets a kick out of naming it Angel. It makes the eldritch guy angryily puff up all adorably so of course he just becomes incorrigible with the sweetheart nicknames.
Wei Wuxian who tames a centuries old demonic entity that latched onto the resentment only to turn it into a glorified toy poodle he carries around in his little tote bag and every once in a while it pops up to ask ₩Ɇ ₭łⱠⱠ₴ ₮ⱧɆ₥? and wwx just pets its creepy little head and says "Nah, they're just having a bad day it's fine." And then they both see someone litter and share identical looks and decide yeah we can get that one.
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loud-whistling-yes · 2 months
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so as literally everyone following me in the past 24 hours knows, im fucking obsessed with her. take her shes everything i have
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kittykatninja321 · 3 months
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controversially I do think that the under the red hood comic ending is a solid answer to “how do you get Batman to kill someone without breaking him as a character”
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ink-blot-thoughts · 1 month
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It is so eternally funny to me that the Fatui have acquired every single gnosis peacefully... except for Venti.
Zhongli had his contract, Yae Miko traded Ei's, Nahida also traded hers and Ei's, and Neuvilette just gave that shit away. Like we're introduced to them as stealing all the Gnoses and then they drop that shit immediately.
Even worse, they steal it from Venti. Fucking Venti. Mr Had a 500 Year Nap. Mr Tells His City To Be Free and Fucks Off. Mr Steals Wine For Himself. That dude. That's the one it was necessary to dropkick.
Like Signora could have sauntered up with an apple in one hand and a bottle of wine in the other and Venti would have given up his gnosis faster than you can say 'Freedom'.
And even if we go with the theory that Venti knows much more than he let's on, he would've have probably given it away anyway considering what we know now about the third Descender and all.
Like Signora had zero need for the bitchslap-dropkick-combo but she needed the Fatui to have a girl boss reputation so she did anyway. Rate. We stan a proactive Queen ig.
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bidokja · 1 year
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I was joking a while back that the actor they have playing KDJ for the orv movie was too handsome for him and a friend who's read orv was like "KDJ is actually secretly attractive!!" And I just felt my soul leave my body right then
SIGHS...
Okay. Buckle in. I'm gonna finally actually address and explain and theorize about this whole...thing.
I'm not gonna cite any exact chapters cause it's like 11:30 and I've got an 8 hour drive in the morning but I'll at least make an approximate reference to where certain things are mentioned. Also, this post is just my personal interpretation for a good bit of it, but it's an interpretation I feel very solid about, so do with that what you will. Moving on to the meat of things:
There is one (1) instance in the web novel that I know of which describes specific features of Kim Dokja (especially ones other people notice). This takes place when members of KimCom are trying to make Kim Dokja presentable to give his speech at the Industrial Complex (after it's been plopped down on Earth). This is when they start really paying attention and focusing on Kim Dokja's appearance since they're putting makeup on him; I still don't think they can interpret his whole face, but they can accurately pick out and retain more features than usual. If I remember correctly they reference him having long eyelashes, smooth skin, and soft hair. These features can be viewed as (stereotypically) attractive.
Certain parts of the fandom have taken this scene and run with it at a very surface level, without realizing (or without acknowledging at the very least) that this scene is not about how Kim Dokja looks. This is, in part, due to not realizing or acknowledging why Kim Dokja's face is "censored" in the first place, and what that censoring actually means. I think it's also possible that some people are assuming the censorship works like a physical phenomena rather than an altered perception.
I'll address that last point first. The censorship of Kim Dokja's features is not something as simple as a physical phenomena. It's not a bar or scribble or mosaic over his face. If that were true it'd be very obvious to anyone looking at him that his face is hidden. But his face is not hidden to people. They can look at him and see a face. If they concentrate on his eyes, they can see where he's looking. They know when he's frowning or grinning. They see a face loud and clear. But what face are they seeing? Because it's not really his, whatever they're seeing.
No one quite agrees on what he really looks like. And if they try and think about what he looks like, they can't recall. Or if they do, it's vague, or different each time. We notice these little details throughout the series. Basically, Kim Dokja's face is cognitively obscured. Something - likely the Fourth Wall, though I can't recall if this is ever stated outright - is interfering with everyone's ability to perceive him properly. This culminated in him feeling off to others; and since they don't even realize this is happening, they surmise that he is "ugly."
Moving on to the other point about what the censorship means: To be blunt, the censorship of his face is an allegory for his disconnect from the "story" (aka: real life, and the real people at his side). The lifting - however slight - of this censorship represents him becoming more and more a part of the "story" (aka: less disconnected from the life he is living and the people at his side). The censorship's existence and lifting can represent other things - like dissociation or depersonalization or, if you want to get really meta, the fact that he is all of our faces at once - but that's how I'd sum up the main premise of it. (The Fourth Wall is a larger part of the dissociation allegory, but that's for another post).
So you see, them noticing his individual features isn't about the features. It's not about the features! It doesn't matter at all which features got listed. Because they could describe any features whatsoever and it would not change the entire point of the scene. Because the point isn't what he looks like. The point is that they can truly and clearly see these features. For the first time. They are seeing parts of him for the first time. Re-read that sentence multiple times, literally and metaphorically. What does it mean to see someone as they are?
This is an extremely significant turning point dressed up as a dress-up scene.
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P.S. / Additionally, I'm of the opinion that Kim Dokja is not handsome, and he is not ugly. He is not pretty, and he is not ghastly. Not attractive, nor unattractive. Kim Dokja isn't any of these things. More importantly, Kim Dokja can't be any of these things. The entire point of Kim Dokja is that you cannot pick him out of a crowd; he is the crowd. He's a reader. He's the reader. Why does he need to be handsome? Why must he be pretty? Why is him being attractive necessary or relevant? He doesn't, he doesn't, it's not. He is someone deeply deeply loved and irreplaceable to those around him, and someone who cannot even begin to recognize or accept that unless it's through a love letter masquerading as a story he can read. He is the crowd, a reader, the reader. He's you, he's me. He's every single one of us.
#orv#orv analysis#orv meta#orv spoilers#mine#ask#there's also the meta that he is described with these (stereotypically) pretty features as they are about to try and 'sell' him to a crowd#which feels to me like a very pointed way to convey how 'beauty' is commodified. how audiences like 'attractive' characters more#note: made some edits to add in a couple of sentences my brain forgot in the moment so make sure u reblogged those if u do#tag edits for further commentary that isnt strictly relevant to the point i was making:#do i think that this face censorship was executed as well as it could have been? nah.#not that it was like. done Badly. it's followed through to a certain point. its established enough for me to make this post at least.#but i do think it is the one thing in the web novel that SS didn't capitalize on.#like. they still stuck the landing but it was not as picture perfect of an execution as the rest of the metaphorical stuff in orv#also. this (not the face censorship specifically but the 'hes just some guy' point of it all) is one of the big reasons i think that-#-visual adaptions of orv can never quite work. they can do the best that they can with that medium but a lot of nuance is lost-#-simply by virtue of it being a visual medium#i personally think the only way a visual medium could work would be one where they commit to the power move of not showing kdj's face#(until a certain point (of view) that is)#his face is always facing away or out of frame or hidden by someone or something else in the way#commit to the fucking allegory or simply perish
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whereismyhat5678 · 7 months
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ngl, I like to imagine Peppino and Gustavo have mustache battles. Like they battle by tickling each other with their mustaches, whoever moves away to scratch their lips loses.
And everyone just thinks that they're kissing awkwardly
Oh fuck yes
Y’know- since Gus has a bigger mustache I think Peppino would fluff his up more to make it more threatening y’know?-
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They’re doing it for fun but people think they’re just kissing really weirdly is hilarious- THEY JUST WANNA HAVE FUN- LET THEM HAVE FUN-
(Also I made this because I thought I’d use it for this top part but it didn’t make much sense- but you can have it since I still like how it came out-):
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If…THEY WERE KISSING 🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨😳😳😳😳😳😳😳
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princelancey · 1 month
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Lance is such a let bygones be bygones kind of a guy, we should embrace that energy more often in sports tbh, it's never that serious
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dr3amofagame · 7 months
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I find it strange that a lot of people are coming forward and saying that the staged finale was a bad play for one reason or another but it really isn’t and I don’t understand where the hate is coming from.
yeah i've seen some of this the last few days--staged finale has always been somewhat "controversial" in the lorehead scene, so a measure of disagreement/discourse about it makes sense. especially bc it was honestly a very big change to what people thought was the story and required people to go back and reevaluate a lot, which. people are naturally resistant at doing
but while obviously i think that some healthy discussion about these things is good, and i feel like i have seen a level of...misunderstanding? about it?? which has gone into the ways that people disagree
staged finale refers to the decision to stage the finale. that's it. staged finale just asserts that based on preexisting foreshadowing and based on the sheer level of suspension of disbelief in order for genuine finale to be real, it made more sense for the finale to be staged than for it to have been genuine. how the finale was planned, when the finale was planned, and to what ends it was planned are all things that you can disagree on w/ other staged finale believers/supporters while still being a staged finale believer/supporter, ykwim? if you believe that c!punz faked his betrayal to c!dream, then congrats! you believe in staged finale. oftentimes i see people say things like "i don't believe in staged finale, i think that c!dream faked the betrayal and all and always had c!punz on his side but i think that the reason behind why he did it is [X]" and it's like. staging the finale is one (1) event, not a comprehensive explanation for everything c!Dream does. that would be more in line with something like the "strategist dream interpretation," which in itself does have different readings as well.
people have listed all of the inconsistencies in the staged finale before, but just to summarize--the guy literally could've dipped when everyone came to "defeat" him, c!tommy leveraging his own life is basically no leverage at all when the mans has the revive book, skeppy cage is a joke, c!dream revealing all of his plans when they were maybe 10% carried out (the entire damn attachment vault was empty of items besides stuff that was literally faked, his own damn stuff, and stuff that he stole recently from c!tommy such as the Axe of Peace and the discs) is ridiculously stupid, why the hell does he have blackmail against c!punz included in a bunker that c!punz clearly had access to???? the list goes on.
(as someone who took awhile to be fully convinced in staged finale, what really tripped me up was the stream punz did the day before: here's a post breaking it down that definitely helped me to see it in a different light.)
as far as foreshadowing goes, just off the top of my head: the original prisoner is a constant question from the day of the prison's creation, being something that's even highlighted on the day of the staged finale itself. c!Dream saying he has "the biggest house on the server" and how it's full of redstone. the entire conversation he has with c!punz, obviously. his holding back on the favor with c!techno, the connection between the revive book and the prison that he establishes the day they begin prison construction.
from a logical perspective, the plan as c!Dream establishes it doesn't make any damn sense. c!dream had opportunities to escape that he didn't take for illogical reasons (if the only reason why he allowed himself to stay in a fucking possible kill chamber was to keep c!tommy from committing suicide, then? what about the revive book? what about the fact that he literally kills c!tommy just a few months later????) -- a level of plot contrivance is expected in the medium, but for a lot of people this was just. Going way too far. Unless he literally lost his whole mind (which, to be fair, was the persona being played) there's just. really no other way to make sense of what was going on there, if it was all genuine.
the other argument is a narrative one--people claim that the story established by a genuine finale is cleaner than the story of the staged one, and honestly. it's like. like that's...a feature, not a flaw? the reason why the genuine finale worked isn't because it was logically believable. dream is Dream Manhunt. he's famously hard to nail down, famously good at escaping sticky situations, famously a man that can outsmart his way out of crazy disadvantageous situations--like. just in terms of minecraft skill, i'd wager that most people would think that dream would've technically been able to pull off an escape even when facing down the collection of enemies that were there. like he had 2 stacks of pearls.
narratively, though, the staged finale has a story that's quite appealing on the surface. the "story" of the events from the spirit speech onwards is one that revolved around the idea of "attachment." c!Dream rejects attachment in favor of control in the spirit speech when he says he refuses to let his love for his dead pet control him anymore, and he focuses on the ability to use the discs to control c!Tommy. the fact that c!Dream's relationships deteriorate at this time seems to support this point, and c!Tommy's strength in his relationships being what saves him and damns c!Dream ties everything off into a neat bow. c!Tommy wins because he has friends and c!Dream loses because he doesn't, moral of the story established, hip-hip-hooray. And so it goes.
but when we look at this more in specifics...? it does start falling apart a bit, doesn't it?
although c!Dream supposedly begins his rampage over his existing emotional connections with the spirit speech, his reputation had been in shambles long before that point. c!Dream-as-villain is first established as part of the greater story in the lmanburg revolution, and that's a title that he never really sheds (this point being emphasized in inconsolable differences and the book c!Wilbur has c!Dream write.) Dethronement happens within a day of Spirit Speech, iirc, and on that day c!Quackity specifically points out that c!Dream has no one on his side but c!Punz. the moments where he is more specifically isolated go back to events such as november 16th, where his alliance with c!Wilbur involved blowing up L'manburg, his deal for the revive book, which involved his publicly betraying Pogtopia, or his opposing Manberg to the literal Manberg cabinet. etc. all of these events in the Manberg/Pogtopia era had c!Dream's loyalties erode to end up as just c!Wilbur and later c!Schlatt for the book, two dead men. (and i say eroded loyalties as if pogtopia really believed dream was on their side, like, ever? like he was never trusted in their ranks, even by c!Tommy, who was definitely the person he worked the closest with outside of c!Wilbur.)
if we look at Dethronement itself, it doesn't actually fit the pattern of "c!Dream cuts off his attachment to people in order to make himself uncontrollable" -- in fact, what it does fit the pattern of is. Staged finale? Faking an end in a relationship with people that he does consider important to him, making a public appearance of betrayal + anger to mask an existing connection, drawing attention to their being enemies to hide the fact that they're actually friends--that's not c!Dream cutting anyone off. That's just the exact same ploy that he uses to make people think that c!Punz betrays him (only c!Sapnap and c!George ended up deciding that Nah We're Gonna Kill You Now. Fuck You It's Coup Time. so that's how that ended up.)
Otherwise there's...the Badlands, who were perfectly happy to agree to joining the coup on the day of dethronement if it got them more power and land. c!Techno, who c!Dream wasn't an ally of until later on with the favor established and then doomsday, and who was someone c!Dream was quite openly wary of + afraid of due to his combat skill. c!Dream was alone literally before exile even happened, his remaining "attachments" of c!George and c!Sapnap turning against him like the day he goes on a whole spiel about ohhoho from today onwards i DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT MY ATTACHMENTS !!! I ONLY CARE ABOUT THE DISCS !!! like congrats you don't even have a chance to cut off any attachment at all dingus they all hate you and want you dead already.
further, with c!punz, he literally says that they're more than just employer/employee in the infamous conversation they have about planning a betrayal. if the whole point of the story is "attachment good," then why is it that what takes down c!dream is...his one remaining attachment? if his fatal flaw is that he didn't trust people enough, why is it that he loses because he trusted someone too much? it's not like c!tommy had any attachment to c!punz--c!punz explicitly "has a reason" to betray c!dream because of money. he helps c!tommy because dream "should have paid [him] more." none of that reflects that spirit of "attachment" that people claim was c!dream's downfall.
(not to mention how the people present in the staged finale to take c!dream down included people who literally hated c!tommy's guts. like. what brought them together wasn't the power of friendship, it was the power of we hate this green bastard.)
this isn't to say that c!Dream didn't have some relationships that go up in flames because he starts acting particularly cackling evil villain (with the green festival being the specific moment where he really goes full in with that persona, going from someone that was framing himself as having a Reasonable Complaint to literally the joker as soon as he gets the disc from c!Tubbo. It's purposefully played as a "mask off" moment that is meant to make him look like a crazy fucking villain in front of a large audience--whether or not you think that was a choice that he made in character or not, the way his personality changes as soon as he receives the disc is jarring.) In particular, his relationships with c!Puffy and c!Sam come to mind--c!Puffy burns the house she made him when she decides that he's too evil (but, uh, c!dream really wasn't even there for that and didn't ever have a particularly close relationship with her) and c!Sam is among those whose opinions of c!Dream become drastically more negative around the period of time that spans green festival->doomsday->staged finale. but it's important to note that c!Dream's relationships on the server aren't...great, at the time of spirit speech. They're uh, really fucking bad, actually. dethronement only makes them even worse, and all of this happens pre-exile. c!Dream had significant reason to be paranoid and afraid for his life long before exile happens, which is Quite Significant, Actually, when you consider that that paranoia is literally what goes into his decisions to carry out the staged finale + put himself in the prison (which isn't the case for genuine finale, where he's more motivated by a desire to control the server without being controlled himself.) staged finale does solidify c!dream-as-villain for a lot of people, but it never would've worked if people didn't already see him as a villain in the first place. c!Dream doesn't make people hate him with the staged finale; he uses hatred that he already knows exists to put himself in what he sees as a safer position.
and look we could go into a whole discussion about manberg/pogtopia c!Dream (which i do think is way overdue to be fair considering that that's where the paranoia + isolation that motivates him post-november 16th comes from in the first place) but this post is long enough already and i still have to figure out a better way to articulate my thoughts on the matter. anyway. carrying on:
people still have different feelings on why he carries out staged finale in the first place, but what we do know for sure is that it was meant to protect punz and protect the revive book. by firmly establishing that c!punz and him were on opposite sides, he keeps the revive book safe and both of their lives safe by extension: as long as no one would kill both of them at the same time, they had a means of reviving the other if need be and obviously had the information on how to raise people from the dead secure. which was important to them. and otherwise...c!Dream is paranoid. c!Dream is very, very paranoid, and this paranoia goes back at the very least to when he learns about the revive book. the prison, for all the dependence that it required of him, was tailor made (and the construction process controlled by dream every damn step of the way) to make sure that whoever was in the main cell would be safe from external threats. the security of the prison and the prisoner was the POINT. i've seen some assertions that staged finale implies that he predicted everything that happened after he was put in prison and...no? i'd say that c!dream's behavior indicates him being thrown off by c!sam as early as bad's prison visit, c!sapnap's prison visit for sure. c!Ranboo being banned from visitation pretty damn obviously fucks him up, tbh. he has c!punz explicitly out there to keep an eye out on the server while he's in the prison, where he was meant to remain for a period of time that was supposed to be much shorter than how long he ends up being there. likely because, you know, he was supposed to have a consistent and reliable source of information with the outside world in the form of c!Ranboo, and c!sam wasn't supposed to fall off the fucking rails as soon as the prison started. people have also talked about how having the staged finale be true means that c!dream doesn't lose, which...i mean. gestures at the prison arc? that whole thing is a loss so catastrophic it literally destroys him. he's never the same after the prison happens. the false betrayal of c!punz is deliberately like ironically described to c!sam, who was the REAL betrayal that fucking. ruins him. he loses SO MUCH over the course of the prison, which was something he literally designed to keep himself safe from external threat. as far as losses go, i definitely find that a lot more compelling and a lot less contrived than watching c!dream go "whoop de doo guess i have to die now" when he's like 3 pearls away from making a clean escape in the disc vault, tbh.
at the end of the day, i think having some conversation about staged finale is fun! and it's always good to reexamine what you believe to make sure that it still holds water. but i've really not seen much staged finale crit that makes the genuine finale feel favorable as an explanation: logically, it makes a lot less sense. narratively, it relies on a story that the audience wants to be true and acts as a "clean" explanation for everything while not actually taking into account a lot of what was ACTUALLY going on for c!dream (cutting off attachments for the sake of control versus watching people turn against you and becoming increasingly paranoid, for example). and believe them or not, the content creators involved have always asserted that staged finale was the plan from the beginning, not any form of retcon. (and we do know that people have been dodgy about stuff like the "original prisoner" literally since the week that c!dream was imprisoned, so take that as you will.) (okay to be fair theyve been dodgy about the original prisoner since the day that the prison began to be constructed, but the QnA from that first week of imprisonment sticks out to me in particular because cc!Sam had the biggest fucking smile on his face and staged finale would've been planned out and then carried out in entirety by the ccs and the c!s by that point.)
this is a longass post but uh hopefully it makes sense, lmao. tried to touch on most of what i've seen recently 😅
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