#batman issue 43
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I need Billy thinking he’s so great at hiding things (and he is) no one knows he’s like fucking eight but they are pretty sure he hates like half the league
Like I need Billy getting along with everyone but he’s kinda stiff around flash and Batman but it’s get worse after most of them have revealed their secret ids and the jls so confused
Billy 100% thought Batman had all these fucking gadgets bc he was like some high up government official and then he found out no Batman’s just some rich guy and he’s like god no why is that worse
Batman just doesn’t care (he does 💀 he’s so fucking offended esp bc Marvel used to call him Mr. Batman sir but also bc he thought it’d be easier to get marvels secret id and weaknesses) as long as it doesn’t affect missions but Flash is kinda concerned bc ‘I’m pretty nice to him…does he think I don’t like him?? Did I offend him?? Do speedsters like set off the magic balance or whatever??’
They decide to pair up flash, Batman, and Captain Marvel to make sure their issues won’t affect team cohesion so after they’re done rescuing these kids that got involved in some supervillains masterplan Batman and flash are doing the usual spiel of ‘the laws exist for a reason,’ ‘you can trust the police’ and ‘there’s no good reason to turn to crime’
These kids want nothing to do with that shit and they’re trying to edge away while making excuses ‘thank you sm!! But no this is so safe, I know this area so well! We can get home ourselves!’ as soon as Batman starts asking about their parents so captain marvel just grabs Batman and flash and starts flying in the opposite direction ‘do you see that?? No guys seriously look at this cool thing!!’ and Batman’s growling about ‘childish to a degree that’s entirely unprofessional’ and ‘needlessly endangering civilians, civilian children at that-!’ and flash is trying to mediate but batman is shoving documents in his face ‘They were runaways, they don’t have anywhere to go and now they’re on a hitlist’ the ‘you fucking imbecile’ goes unsaid but they all hear it so marvel takes them back to villains lair and grabs a henchman at random and goes ‘This guys a cop…you can check that with your fancy equipment, right??’ and batman checks solely to prove him wrong but that guy is a cop and so are about 60% of the henchmen they took out then marvel goes ‘So they wouldn’t have been safe even if you took them to a hospital or child services’
Before the id reveals there’s a mission where the police are involved and flash mentions something about police protocol and marvel is so concerned bc ‘you’re still undercover? How long have you been under cover dude??’ and flash is confused bc ‘you know I’m not undercover right?? That is my actual real life day job’ and no one believes him when he says marvel shot him the most disgusted look you can imagine and edged away from him
Batman tries to hold a meeting to address how marvel deals with the police and it goes no where bc marvel is fucking menace and goes ‘don’t you do that too?? And technically I’m also a vigilante sooo’ and batman is scrambling to get the jls attention back like ‘marvel hits cops 62% percent harder than other criminals and is 43% less friendly when interacting with the police in any capacity’ but they don’t care bc they want to know why marvel considers himself a vigilante
They start letting Marvel be the one to approach children and notice that he’s advising them on how to make food last longer and maintain good hygiene while taking care of themselves and a jl members like hey wtf?? and Marvel says some bullshit about how ‘he’s lived many lives and not all of them were charmed’ and it gets back to cyborg who starts a rumor that he was dracula bc he can’t believe marvel had the balls to look WW in the eyes and lie to her fucking face
#billy batson#dc captain marvel#batman#dc flash#bruce wayne#barry allen#justice league#dc comics#green arrow like pulls marvel aside and is like ‘we’re cool though right??’ and Billy just kinda goes ‘😬 …eat the rich’#yj calls billy tim’s apprentice bc he lies to wonderwoman and tim lies to batman#billy and vic being friends is so fucking funny to me like yeah this is my all knowing godlike friend who’s sometimes a baby#ACAB!billy batson
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Hey, I started reading Robin son of Batman because of your recommendation (I literally have a print of your post on my phone to not forget lol). Honestly? One of the best things I ever read!!!
Thank you for opening my eyes! Damian has been one of my favorite characters for over a year, but I didn't read/watch much of him because of school, life (and probably an executive dysfunction in the mix).
Maya is incredible. I loved her.
I haven't finished all the issues yet, but do you have any other recommendations?
WAH this makes me so happy, i'm glad you still gave it a shot even with how busy life is!! ;v;
i’d love to give reccs, and i’ll try to go a beginner friendly route! tbh you can pick up whatever here, but since you've read R:SOB i’d immediately follow up with Batman and Robin (2011) #1-8! this first arc is what’s referred to in Maya’s introduction, and it's just. so good.
Main Books
Batman and Robin (2009)
Dick as Batman with Damian as his Robin!
#20-22 Tree of Blood: Dark Knight vs White Knight arc is done by Tomasi and Gleason, the team for the next Batman and Robin series
*Batman and Robin (2011)
Bruce and Damian figuring out their relationship as both Batman & Robin and father & son
imo you can enjoy the ride and read straight through this but i’ll add context to avoid as much confusion as possible since there’s the occasional tie-in or offscreen events, like Damian’s death nbd
Batman Incorporated (2012) #1-10
events leading to Damian's death - affects Batman and Robin (2011) from issue #18
kind of a tough read especially with how Talia's written, but a lot of iconic bits like Batcow, Damian's vegetarian declaration, Alfred the cat, "We Were the Best, Richard."
Robin (2021)
another self-discovery adventure, particularly after Alfred’s death and a fallout with Bruce (and questionable writing choices from his last Teen Titans run)
Batman and Robin (2023)
currently ongoing! after a number of events, Bruce and Damian are back as a duo
Damian Dynamics!
Batman: Streets of Gotham (2009) #7, 10-12
arc where Damian meets one of his first Gotham friends, Colin Wilkes
Batgirl (2009) #5-7, #17
Steph and Damian dynamic! "the bad cop, worse cop" dysfunctional duo
Red Robin (2009) #13-14
early Tim and Damian dynamic that of course includes fighting haha. funny enough, accidentally my first intro to Damian LOL
Teen Titans (2003) #89-92
Dick!Batman has Damian join the Teen Titans. Start of Damian and Rose Wilson dynamic that’s extended in Robin (2021)
Batman: Gates of Gotham (2011)
Damian meets Cass and has a brief team up
Gotham Academy (2015) #7
Damian meets Maps Mizoguchi! they have a few other meetings, but outside of that the series itself is a great read!
Robin War Event (2015)
Robin War (2015) #1, Grayson (2014) #15, Detective Comics (2011) #47, We Are Robin (2015) #7, Robin: Son of Batman (2015) #7, Robin War (2015) #2
Duke and Damian dynamic! not exactly beginner friendly but these are the main issues in order for the event! you can also read the TPB version for everything including Tie-Ins
Nightwing (2016) #16-20, #42, #43
#16-20 Nightwing and Robin arc!
#42 Dick on a mission to save Damian! the one appearance of "Wiggles" the dragon
#43 Dick, Roy, and Damian team-up
New Talent Showcase 2018 "Catwoman: Pedigree"
Selina, Damian, and Alfred the cat
Batman: Prelude to the Wedding - Robin vs. Ra's Al Ghul (2018)
Selina, Damian, and Cheese Viking - Damian's fav game shown in Nightwing: Rebirth (2016)
Monkey Prince (2022) #1-4
Marcus Sun Shugel-Shen's main comic, but Damian features as a fun dynamic here before they're in more serious circumstances in Batman VS Robin (2022)/Lazarus Planet event
Superman (2016) #10 - 11
the beginning of the Super Sons! featuring Maya!
Super Sons (2017)
solitary arcs but there’s a few event tie-in issues later
Adventures of the Super Sons (2018)
literally more Super Sons adventures lol galactic shenanigans yeehaw
Challenge of the Super Sons (2020)
Super Sons time shenanigans feat. the Justice League
Robin 80th Anniversary (2020)
"Boy Wonders" - brief Damian feature as Tim considers his next step in life
"My Best Friend" - Jon's thoughts on Damian and their dynamic
"Bat and Mouse" - refers to Damian's unfortunate Teen Titans (2016) run at the time of release which follows up with Teen Titans Annual #2 where Damian briefly gives up Robin
Extra Comics!
Superman/Batman (2003) #77
Kara and Damian in a Halloween team-up! also the appearance of "Li'l Matches" lol
DCU Halloween Special '09 "Cavity Search"
Damian out on a solo mission for Halloween night. Immediately after is Tim's Red Robin story "Then and Now: Our Father's Sins" which is more somber in contrast but also a good read!
DCU Halloween Special 2010 "Robin the Vampire Slayer"
a Dick!Batman and Robin story featuring the vampire Andrew Bennett
Cursed Comics Cavalcade (2018) "The Devil You Know"
Halloween themed comic with a sweet short story of Damian alongside Solomon Grundy
DC's Terrors Through Time (2022)
"Trick or Treat" a Super Sons Halloween story
"The Haunting of Wayne Manor" Damian and Deadman story - in the end, Boston kinda refers to Nezha's possession of Damian in Batman VS Robin (2022) which was happening at the time of this release
Batman: Li'l Gotham (2013)
lighthearted series that instantly makes me smile with the silliness and Dustin Nguyen’s art i love this dearly
Secret Origins (2014) #4 "A Boy's Life"
a retelling of Damian's origin story
Detective Comics (2016) #1001-1005
Batman and Robin vs the Arkham Knight (unrelated to the game)
Truth & Justice (2021) #6/#16 - 18 Digital First version
cute story of Damian’s birthday! Juni Ba’s art is so fun!!
DC Festival of Heroes: The Asian Superhero Celebration (2021) “Special Delivery”
short story about Damian! and poisoned pizzas. completely forgot the artist Sami Basri drew Rebirth Damian here before catboy Damian lol Cass’s story “Sounds” is also cute! Marcus makes his first appearance in "The Monkey Prince Hates Superheroes"
DC VS Vampires (2021)
Damian makes appearances throughout this elseworlds book, but the one-shot DC VS Vampires: Hunters (2022) is vampire Damian-centric!
Batman: Black and White (2021) #5
“Father & Son Outing” short story written and drawn by Jorge Jimenez!
Batman: Urban Legends (2021) #20-23
#20 “My Son” Talia and Bruce focus
#20 - 23 “The Murder Club” 4 Parts
Tiny Titans (2008) #33, #39, #45, #47
a few appearances but SO CUTE, LOOK AT HIM
*Batman and Robin (2011) reading guide
i'm mostly trying to avoid the "what did i just walk in on?" kinda feeling when i first started reading comics LOL i'll list the comics where events take place, but you don't necessarily have to read them to go through this book since things are usually explained as quickly as possible in the first page or so
#0 Someday Never Comes
Talia and baby Damian before he grows up to meet Bruce
#1-8 Born to Kill
just an incredibly solid arc for Bruce and Damian!
#9 Court of Owls Tie-In Issue
Damian VS a Court of Owls Talon. While Bruce is occupied with a home invasion of Talons, Alfred makes a call for allies to protect targeted Gotham public figures from Talons. During Batman (2011) #1-11
#10-12 Terminus
Damian challenges the previous Robins sans Steph
Batman Incorporated (2012) is occurring at this time where Talia has placed a bounty on Damian and there's small mentions of that
#13-14 Eclipsed/Devoured
mostly solitary arc! end of it leads into the Death of the Family event
#15-16 Death of the Family Tie-In Issues
Damian and Joker face-off... Alfred's been kidnapped by the Joker, and Damian goes looking for him. During Batman (2011) #13-17
#17 Life is but a Dream - Death of the Family Epilogue
a sort of subconscious check-in through the dreams of Damian, Alfred, and Bruce. Nightwing (2011) #17 features Damian encouraging Dick after Death of the Family events
#18 Undone "Requiem"
Bruce dealing with Damian's death from Batman Incorporated #8
other reactions to Damian's death: Dick in Nightwing (2011) #18, Tim in Teen Titans (2011) #18
#19-23 Denial, Rage, The Bargain, Despair, Acceptance
Bruce through the stages of grief with some batfam appearances in each. also introduces Carrie Kelley into continuity as Damian's acting tutor.
Batman (2011) #19-20 also addresses Bruce's loss
#23.1-23.4
these could be skipped - villain stories, also related to Forever Evil event.
#24-28 The Big Burn
optional Batman and Two-Face/Harvey Dent arc, #23.1 is part of this story!
Damian's resurrection and return
#29-32 The Hunt for Robin
Ras took Talia and Damian's bodies from their graves, and Bruce goes after him.
-> Robin Rises: Omega
continues events from #32. if you don't want to jump to this, basically, Glorious Godfrey and a bunch of parademons from Apokolips are here for a chaos shard which Ra's put in Damian's sarcophagus. at some point, Bruce gets a hold of the shard where he sees a vision that leads him to believe Damian can be resurrected. Godfrey ends up taking the shard, along with Damian's body since it was emitting the same energy.
#33-37 Robin Rises
Bruce hellbent on retrieving Damian from Apokolips and reviving him
-> Robin Rises: Alpha
necessary to read and continues events from #37! Damian's back with a bang lol
#38-40 Superpower
Damian adjusting to having superpowers and being alive again
Annual #1 2013 Batman Impossible
sweet (and funny) one-shot of Damian sending Bruce on a meaningful scavenger hunt around the world while Damian gets to be the cutest Batman for a bit
Annual #2 2014 Batman and Robin: Week One
one-shot takes place during Damian's absence. after Bruce and Alfred find a mystery gift left for Dick, Dick recounts a story he had told Damian from his Robin days.
Annual #3 2015 Moonshot
one-shot Batman and Robin adventure on the moon!
...and of course after Batman and Robin (2011), Damian's story continues in his first solo Robin: Son of Batman (2015)!
#damian wayne#ask#sorry for R:SOB promo again but i need this title attached to Damian's name as much as B&R 2009/2011😭#thank you for the ask anon!! really am so happy you were able to find the time to read RSOB and enjoy it!! i genuinely cheered 😭#i hope some of these comics give you many emotions and/or a smile!! <3#if anyone would like to correct something or include some Damian comics please feel free to comment or add to the post!!#sorry if the reading guide is an intimidating wall of text hhh after i finished it i was like...this does not look beginner friendly LOL 😭#Damian's Teen Titans run is beginner friendly but it's so frustrating to read his character being regressed especially after RSOB#ig i would only recc the first 5 issues just for Mara asdsfg#super/bat 77 comic rlly made me wonder how Williamson could've made Damian sound so stiff now compared to his first time writing him?? rip.#also i love how there's so many Halloween stories here lol#maybe?? i'll do a guide for Damian's intro since those were the most confusing for me when i really got into his comics#i think his most recent appearances are a bit easier to figure out on your own but i don't mind doing a guide for that too if needed!#OOF tags got long lol i may be a bit nervous posting this bc i'd like ppl to read more Damian but worried i may have goofed somewhere#but hopefully this is helpful to anyone curious about peeking at his comics!!
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I remember seeing a panel of Bruce and Barbara(?) talking how Dick's feelings for Starfire(?) Is just a phase and Babs(?), and thought about if Bruce had ever pushed/or try to direct Dick to date a girl he (Bruce) liked/preffered Dick to date? I mean I don't think Bruce will forcibly do so, but he clearly has preferences (cough titans is Nono to him cough).
Batman: Gotham Knights Issue #43
This one!
Even though he said this to Barbara, Bruce has drawn a line in overtly interfering with Dick's love life. Actually he makes it very clear that he's not going to interfere with Dick's love life after bringing up the topic.
Nightwing (1999) Issue #14
Which is....what just happened? Was he saying he disapproves? Clearly not because he says he believes in Dick and that sounds genuine. But then does that mean he approves? Then why didn't he give a clear answer, actually why did he even bring it up because Dick wasn't even talking about that in the first place.
He's openly supportive of Tim's choices so why doesn't he just say what he thinks about Dick? I guess it doesn't help that Dick reacts like a cat in hot water when it comes to Bruce's involvement in his life so this is probably that Bruce doesn't know what to say. I don't know if he doesn't want Dick to date anyone, which tracks from his thoughts on Dick's relationships with people in general, or if he has a particular inclination toward someone but he's afraid of saying it because he doesn't want it to blow up in his face.
Obviously the Titans are a no way. Like the Titans aren't even on the table for Bruce when it comes to acceptable Dick Grayson dating choices. They're probably in the neighbor's trash can lol.
He's against civilians in general, even for himself, so that wouldn't fly with him. Anyone from the league or heroes are just as bad as the Titans for Bruce because he's terrified of Dick leaving him and has canonical attachment issues to him. So it would have to be someone in Gotham or in direct attachment to the batfamily so he can gatekeep Dick Grayson.
That only leaves two available choices - Barbara and Helena - that Bruce would ever be okay with Dick dating. You know how sometimes people compromise or say things like "I love you and would do anything for you but in the end it's up to you and I respect that", yeah...Bruce just leaves off the last part indefinitely.
Although this comic issue is older, it shows that he's not particularly keen on Barbara either,
Detective Comics (1937) Issue #369
But that was then when it was just Dick, Barbara, and Bruce. Now there are more players in the game than just Barbara so compared to how much Dick would pull away if he dated or married one of them, Barbara looks like a shining star of a choice because all of Bruce's actions are inherently selfish although he tries his best not to be.
I think the issue with Bruce and Dick's dating life is the problem he has with Dick's life in general. He clearly wants to interfere, but he's worried about the backlash he's going to get.
Nightwing (2016) Issue #38
Because Dick loves to help others but he hates receiving help much to the despair of literally the entire rest of the hero community. But he's particularily sensitive about Bruce's involvement in his life because he only became Nightwing to prove to Bruce he can take care of himself. Since then, Bruce's relationship in term of helping Dick or giving him his opinions has been a series of "Can I-should I-" thoughts.
So although he'll never tell Dick his opinions because he's scared of the backlash, but he definitely has opinions.
#dick grayson#nightwing#bruce wayne#batman#barbara gordon#batgirl#cl anon asks#cl asks#thanks for the ask!
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ULTIMATE SUPERGIRL READING GUIDE
since i've been asked a few times in the past for various reading guides for kara, i thought i'd compile them all into one post for the sake of convenience!
this guide has reading orders for supergirl comics in PRE-CRISIS (1959-1985), POST-CRISIS (2004-2011), NEW 52 (2011-2016), REBIRTH (2016-2021), and INFINITE FRONTIER (2021-present).
if you have any questions at all don't be afraid to shoot me an ask!
for each section bolded comics are required, italicized comics are recommended, and everything else is optional!
[PRE-CRISIS]
ORIGIN AND MIDVALE ERA
(NOTE: you'll have to flip to the back of each issue to get to kara's section!)
action comics (1938) #252, 258, 267, 276, 278-282, 285, 295, 309-310, 313, 317
STANHOPE COLLEGE
action comics (1938) #318, 366-368, 372, 374
world’s finest (1941) #169
adventure comics (1938) #381, 386, 391, 395, 397
K-SFTV REPORTER — SAN FRANCISCO
adventure comics (1938) #406-407, 410-415, 419-424
VANDYRE UNIVERSITY
supergirl (1974) #1-10
STUDENT ADVISOR — FLORIDA
(NOTE: every member of the superfamily has a story in the superman family (1974), so you'll have to flip through to find kara's section!)
the superman family (1974) #165, 168, 171, 177
justice league of america (1960) #132-134
the superman family #183, 184-186, 187-189, 191-193, 196-198, 201-202, 203, 204-205
ACTRESS — NEW YORK
the superman family (1974) 208-210, 211-214, 215-216, 217, 218
superman (1939) #373 (second story titled “an eye (and ear) on the world!”)
detective comics (1937) #508-510
the superman family #219-222
LAKE SHORE UNIVERSITY
supergirl (1982) #1-12 (cw: nazi imagery in the brief interlude in #12)
supergirl (1982) #13-15 (cw: antisemitism, nazi imagery, depictions of the holocaust.)
supergirl (1982) #16-23
LAST APPEARANCES AND DEATH
legion of superheroes (1980) #300-303
tales of the legion (1985) #4-7
crisis on infinite earths (1985) #4-7
BONUS POST-COIE APPEARANCES
christmas with the super-heroes (1988) #2 (last story titled “should auld acquaintance be forgot”)
supergirl (1996) #49, 75-80
solo (2004) #1 (third story titled “young love”)
convergence: adventures of superman (2015) #1-2
[POST-CRISIS]
ORIGIN
superman/batman (2003) #8-13
(or you can watch superman/batman: apocalypse (2010) instead which I recommend! the art is a lot more tasteful and it's a very faithful adaptation of the comic so you won’t be missing out on anything.)
KARA WITH THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES
supergirl and the legion of super-heroes (2006) #16-36
LOEB AND KELLY HELL ERA
supergirl (2005) #1-5, 9-10, 19
(you don’t have to read any of this since it gets retconned anyway, but if you’re interested in kara’s early characterization, the beginnings of her friendship with cassie sandsmark, or her difficulty fitting in on earth then you’re welcome to read what i’ve provided.)
KELLEY PUCKETT ERA
Amazons Attack!
teen titans (2003) #47-48
amazons attack! (2007) #3
supergirl (2005) #20
amazons attack! (2007) #4
teen titans (2003) #49
supergirl (2005) #21-22
teen titans (2003) #50, 51-55
supergirl (2005) #25-33
Superman: Brainiac
action comics (1938) #866-870
GATES AND IGLE HEAVEN ERA
supergirl (2005) #34
New Krypton
(new krypton is one of my favorite events and i recommend it in its entirety, but for the sake of brevity I’ll only be listing the issues relevant to kara.)
superman: new krypton special #1
superman (1939) #681
adventure comics special featuring guardian #1
action comics (1938) #871
supergirl (2005) #35
superman (1939) #682
action comics (1938) #872
supergirl (2005) #36
superman (1939) #683
action comics (1938) #873
teen titans (2003) #66
supergirl (2005) #37-42
Friends and Fugitives
superman: secret Files 2009 #1
supergirl (2005) #43
action comics (1938) #881
supergirl (2005) #45
action comics (1938) #882
supergirl (2005) #46-47
supergirl (2005) annual 1, #48-50
Last Stand of New Krypton
adventure comics (2009) #8
superman: last stand of new krypton #1
supergirl (2005) #51
superman (1938) #698
adventure comics (2009) #9
superman: last stand of new krypton #2
adventure comics (2009) #10
supergirl (2005) #52
superman (1938) #699
superman: last stand of new krypton #3
superman: war of the supermen (2010) #0, 1-4
supergirl (2005) #53-57, annual 2, 58-59
END OF SUPERGIRL VOL 5
supergirl (2005) #60-64
supergirl (2005) #65-67
[NEW 52]
ORIGIN and SUPERGIRL VS THE WORLDKILLERS
supergirl (2011) #1-7
SUPERGIRL and SILVER BANSHEE
supergirl (2011) #8-11
SUPERGIRL and SUPERBOY
superboy (2011) #6
SANCTUARY
supergirl (2011) #12, 0, 13
H’EL ON EARTH
superman (2011) #13
supergirl (2011) #14
superman (2011) #14
superboy (2011) #15
supergirl (2011) #15
superboy (2011) #16
superboy (2011) Annual #1
supergirl (2011) #16
superman (2011) #16
superboy (2011) #17
supergirl (2011) #17
superman (2011) #17
SUPERGIRL and POWERGIRL
supergirl (2011) #18-20
CYBORG SUPERMAN
supergirl (2011) #21-23
action comics (2011) #23.1
supergirl (2011) #24
KRYPTON RETURNS
action comics (2011) annual #2
superboy (2011) #25
supergirl (2011) #25
superman (2011) #25
SUPERGIRL VS LOBO
supergirl (2011) #26-27
RED DAUGHTER OF KRYPTON
supergirl (2011) #28-29
red lanterns (2011) #28-29
supergirl (2011) #30
red lanterns (2011) #30
supergirl (2011) #31
red lanterns (2011) #31-32
supergirl (2011) #32-33
SUPERMAN: DOOMED
(this is a whole storyline but I'll only be listing the issues that kara appears in!)
superman/wonder woman (2013) #9
action comics (2011) #33
supergirl (2011) #34
superman: doomed (2014) #2
action comics (2011) #35
supergirl (2011) #35
FUTURES END
supergirl: futures end (2014) #1
JUSTICE LEAGUE UNITED
justice league united (2014) #1-5
justice league united (2014) annual #1
justice league united (2014) #6-10
CRUCIBLE
supergirl (2011) #36-40
FINAL DAYS OF SUPERMAN
(kara only appears in the issues i've italicized and bolded, but i put all the relevant issues if you wanted to read the full storyline!)
superman (2011) #51
batman/superman (2013) #31
action comics (2011) #51
superman/wonder woman (2013) #28
batman/superman (2013) #32
action comics (2011) #52
superman/wonder woman (2013) #29
superman (2011) #52
[REBIRTH]
KARA IN NATIONAL CITY
supergirl: rebirth #1
supergirl (2016) #1-8
batgirl (2016) annual 1
supergirl #9-12
supergirl (2016) annual 1
supergirl #13-20
world's finest: batwoman and supergirl #1-2
ROGOL ZAAR and THE SINS OF THE CIRCLE
the man of steel #1-2, 3-6
supergirl #21-33, #34-36
LEVIATHAN and BATMAN WHO LAUGHS
superman: leviathan rising special #1
supergirl #34-36
supergirl (2016) annual 2
supergirl #37-42
HOUSE OF KENT
action comics (2016) #1022-1023
action comics (2016) #1024-1028
FUTURE STATE
superman of metropolis (2021) #1-2
kara zor el, superwoman (2021) #1-2
[INFINITE FRONTIER]
action comics 2021 annual
WOMAN OF TOMORROW
supergirl: woman of tomorrow (2021) #1-8
WORLD'S FINEST
batman/superman: world's finest (2022) #2-6, 8, 12
A WORLD WITHOUT CLARK KENT and RED MOON
(kara is featured in the back-up story! if you want the full context of this plot i recommend reading the full warworld arc in action comics [action comics #1030-1046, superman: warworld apocalypse #1]!)
action comics (2016) #1044-1046, 1047-1049
DAWN OF DC
action comics (2016) #1051-1053, 1055-1056
superman (2023) #1-3
power girl special #1
steelworks (2023) #1-3
KNIGHT TERRORS
knight terrors: superman (2023) #1-2
DAWN OF DC (continued)
action comics: doomsday special (2023)
superman (2023) #7
hawkgirl (2023) #4
action comics (2016) #1058
supergirl special (2023)
action comics (2016) #1059-1060
action comics 2023 annual
power girl (2023) #6-7
HOUSE OF BRAINIAC
action comics (2016) #1064
UPCOMING IN 2024
action comics (2016) #1065 [out may 14]
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HI ITS ME AGAIN
Do you have instances on Bruce talking about Dick's girlfriend, Koriand'r, or talking with her, or expressing his opinion on her in any way? I'm doing another meta lmao
I'm also still in search for that adult-ish Dick saying he didn't want Bruce to be his father pre-flashpoint lmao, it's still the only instance I'm missing. Thank you in advance!!!
Batman: Gotham Knights Issue #43. Where Bruce is so much of an asshole I wish I didn't remember it…
Then there's Batman Confidential #13, if you can call that saying something…
There's also the fact that Bruce turned down coming to the wedding, when Dick and Kory were supposed to get married. But I don't think we ever saw his reasoning behind that. So I don't have much input, I'm afraid.
Dick had a very limited presence in bat-books the years he was together with Starfire. Possibly their breakup had something to do with that DC wanted him back with the bats, but I can never remember if there are any sources for that or if it's speculation.
Anyone who knows more is very welcome to chime in!
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THE NEW AND IMPROVED CASSANDRA CAIN READING GUIDE
Cassandra Cain is the daughter of assassins David Cain and Sandra Wu-San (better known as Lady Shiva), and was raised by Cain. She is an expert hand-to-hand combatant, and able to read body language to the point of interpreting complex thoughts, but learning to communicate better through speech and text. She has operated as a vigilante under the names of Batgirl, Kasumi, Black Bat, and Orphan, and is currently sharing the title of Batgirl with Stephanie Brown and Barbara Gordon.
Basic Reading
Batgirl (2000)
Batman: Gates of Gotham (2011)
Detective Comics (2016) #934-987
Batman and the Outsiders (2019)
Batgirls (2021)
Spirit World (2023)
Birds of Prey (2023)
Cassandra's major appearances are listed in chronological order (mostly) under the cut. My favorites are bolded.
No Man's Land
All issues collected in Batman: No Man's Land (2011) vol. 2-4. I recommend reading the entire event.
Batman (1940) #567 [first appearance]
Detective Comics (1937) #734
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #120 [Cassandra takes up Batgirl mantle]
Azrael: Agent of the Bat #56-57
Batman (1940) #569
The Batman Chronicles #18
Azrael: Agent of the Bat #60-61
Robin (1993) #73
As Batgirl
Issues that are part of events may be confusing out of context.
Batman: Gotham Knights #2, 5
Batman: Gotham City Secret Files and Origins [first story]
Batgirl (2000) #1-2
Young Justice (1998) #21
Batgirl (2000) #3-11, 12 [Officer Down start]
Birds of Prey (1999) #27
Catwoman (1993) #90 [Officer Down end]
Batgirl (2000) Annual #1, #13-19
Harley Quinn (2000) #10
Robin (1993) #88 [first meeting with Stephanie Brown]
Batgirl (2000) #20, 21 [Joker: Last Laugh start]
Joker: Last Laugh #3
Supergirl (1996) #63 [transphobia cw, Joker: Last Laugh end]
DC First: Batgirl/Joker
Batgirl (2000) #22-23, 24 [Bruce Wayne: Murderer? / Fugitive start]
Robin (1993) #98
Batgirl (2000) #25-29
Batman (1940) #605 [Bruce Wayne: Murderer? / Fugitive end]
Batgirl: Secret Files and Origins
Batgirl (2000) #30-32
Batman: Gotham Knights #33, 35
Batgirl (2000) #33-38
Batman: Family #7
Detective Comics (1937) #782 [backup], 790
Nightwing (1996) #81
Superboy (1994) #85 [first meeting with Kon-El/Conner Kent]
Batgirl (2000) #39-44
Batman: Gotham Knights #42, 45-46, 48-49
Robin (1993) #119
Batgirl (2000) #45-47
Superman/Batman #5
Batgirl (2000) #48-50
Birds of Prey (1999) #61, 63
Batgirl (2000) #51-53
Solo #10 [third story]
Detective Comics (1937) #796 [backup]
Robin (1993) #127-128
Batgirl (2000) #54
War Games
All issues collected in Batman: War Games (2015). I don't recommend reading the entire event.
Detective Comics (1937) #797
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #182
Nightwing (1996) #96
Batgirl (2000) #55
Batman (1940) #631
Batgirl (2000) #56
Nightwing (1996) #98
Batgirl (2000) #57
Batgirl in Bludhaven
Robin (1993) #132 [Fresh Blood start]
Batgirl (2000) #58
Robin (1993) #133
Batgirl (2000) #59 [Fresh Blood end]
Batman Allies: Secret Files and Origins 2005 [third story]
Batgirl (2000) #60-73
With the League of Assassins and Deathstroke
I don't recommend reading anything in this section except Batgirl (2008) #6.
Robin (1993) #148-151, 161-162
Supergirl (2005) #14
World War III #2
Teen Titans (2003) #43-46
Batman and the Outsiders (2007)
Batgirl (2008) [recap of this era. Bruce adopts Cassandra]
As Black Bat
Battle for the Cowl: The Network
Batgirl (2009) #1 [Cassandra gives Batgirl mantle to Stephanie]
Red Robin #17
Batman Incorporated (2011) #6
Red Robin #25
Batman: Gates of Gotham
As Orphan
The New 52 reboot changed Cassandra’s origins, personality, and relationships with other characters. Rebirth was a soft reboot that kept New 52 canon but brought back elements from the previous continuity.
Batman and Robin Eternal #1-9, 11-14, 17-26 [New 52]
Detective Comics (2016) #934-940 [Rebirth]
Batman (2016) #7 [Night of the Monster Men start]
Nightwing (2016) #5
Detective Comics (2016) #941
Batman (2016) #8
Nightwing (2016) #6
Detective Comics (2016) #942 [Night of the Monster Men end], 943-962
Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #15
Detective Comics (2016) #963-964
Batgirl and the Birds of Prey #15-17
Detective Comics (2016) #965-981, 983-987
Batman and the Outsiders (2019)
DC: The Doomed and the Damned [seventh story]
Batman: The Joker War Zone [second story]
Batman (2016) #104
Return of Batgirl
The Infinite Frontier reboot considers all past continuities canon.
Infinite Frontier #0
Batman Secret Files: The Signal
Batman: Urban Legends #3, 5, 7, 8, 10, 14
The Joker (2021) #3-4, 7, 11-12, 15
Detective Comics (2016) #1038 [backup], 1049, 1052, 1057
Batman (2016) #112 [main], 115-116 [backups]
Nightwing (2016) #85-86
Batman (2016) #117 [backup]
Batgirls #1-6
Task Force Z #8
DC Pride: Tim Drake Special
Robin (2021) #15
Detective Comics (2016) #1061
Batgirls #7
Catwoman (2018) #45
Batgirls #8-12
Batman One Bad Day: Two-Face
Tim Drake: Robin #4
Batgirls Annual 2022, #13-19
Lazarus Planet: Dark Fate [fourth story]
Spirit World (2023)
Birds of Prey (2023) #1- [ongoing]
Detective Comics (2016) #1084 [backup]
Other Appearances
Ghost/Batgirl [Dark Horse Comics crossover]
Batman: Outlaws #2
Batman: City of Light [not recommended]
Justice League Elite [as Kasumi]
Wonder Woman (2006) #600 [second story]
Batgirl (2016) #50 [third story]
DC Festival of Heroes [first story]
Truth & Justice #6 [#16-18 digital first]
Alternate Universes
Tiny Titans #33, 39, 43, 45
Batgirl: Futures End
Convergence: Batgirl
Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey (2020)
DCeased: Unkillables / Dead Planet #5 / War of the Undead Gods
Shadow of the Batgirl [YA graphic novel]
Dark Knights: Death Metal Robin King [backup]
Future State: The Next Batman #2, 4 [second stories]
Batman: Wayne Family Adventures [webtoon]
DC vs. Vampires
Dark Knights of Steel #9
Thanks for reading! If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Last updated: April 23, 2024
#dcedit#comicedit#cassandra cain#batgirl#batgirls#wayne family adventures#batgirl 2000#black bat#orphan#reading guide#reading list#reading order#batman
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It has come to my attention that some are not aware of the double bat teen titans elseworlds run. [Post Here] made by @saturnsickle
So I'm here to explain a bit to everyone.
When was the series?
From September 1st 2001 to March 1st 2005, an elseworlds Teen Titans run started.
The series was 43 issues plus a 2004 annual.
Line-Up
Yara Flor (Wondergirl)
Jackson Hyde (Aqualad)
Cassandra Cain (Batgirl)
Jason Todd (Robin)
Roy Harper (Arsenal)
It was a bit out of nowhere, seeing as the lineup featured two brand new characters, a newly established character, a then considered dead character, and a former teen titan turned titan.
Retrospect
In retrospect, this series can be seen as a world building series as well as a device to introduce more heroes within a similar age group and adding more younger heroes into the mix, bridging the gap between the titans of Dick Grayson and Donna Troy and the younger generation of young justice soon teen titans Tim Drake and Cassie Sandsmark.
This series also reintroduced Jason Todd to a reader base that had known him as dead at this point. Adding new characterization that would be later used in the Batman: Hush storyline and lead into the Batman: Under the Red Hood series.
Interestingly, we see that this series of Teen Titans ended the same month that Red Hood's identity was revealed to Batman in Batman #683.
That is no coincidence. Fans have long since known that the series ended when Jason Todd was introduced back into the main line story.
However, while well planned, this left the elseworld's Teen Titans run to end abruptly and feel incomplete in some places.
Features
Some features of this series were a phenomenal number one cover that would later inspire the cover art for World's Finest: Teen Titans #1, an interesting dynamic between Batgirl and Robin that wouldn't show in mainline stories until New 52, and Roy in another mentorship role that we had been starting to see become more prominent at the time.
The introductory arc in the story (issues 1 through 4), where we were introduced to the characters in their separate contexts and got to see them come together in a way that explained how they got to that point, instead of just showing us them together as a team. It was also interesting to see Joker used as an introductory villain instead of someone else. It really set up the idea of a larger world outside of Joker and the scale of threats that would continue to increase throughout the series.
One of my favorite subplot that continued throughout the series was the character and moral conflict between the two bat characters (Cass and Jason) and their views on Justice, superheroing, and the right way to go about it. Although Jason's characterization is not exactly the same as his pre-death in the family personality, it provided a good sense of transition that got us from PreDitF to the UtRH personality. Cass and Jason often found themselves at odds with each other throughout the series. Cass, who believed in redemption and was stark and steady in her belief that no one should die, contrasted Jason's harsher view on crime and how to handle it.
It was also nice to see Cass on a team of people similar to her age. Although we got to see her work on the Justice League: Elite team, the elseworld's teen titans run got to show her in a more light-hearted run where she got to learn to be herself. Mirroring her then running solo series, we got to see Cass start to form a life and connections outside of the suit, and meet people who tested her belief in the symbol, this time with her peers.
Her growing friendship with Yara was really fun to read even at its worst writing. I especially enjoyed issue 25 and 26, where the two of them teamed up with the elseworld's version of Starfire and Donna Troy in a timeless issue of powerful female heroes.
Some of the negative from the run was the forced upon romantic subplot from 27 to 36, where it took up too much space on the panels and caused unnecessary character drama in a style that hadn't been seen in the run up to that point.
By the time of issue 40, there were three issues to wrap up the plot of the story before the run would come to a close. The story structure was there, but it was rushed and needed a couple more issues to really dive into the plot. The team disbands after Jason Todd/Robin murders one of the lesser villians they were fighting and caused the team to split ways to deal with the events of the arc. It culottes perfectly into the reveal later that month in the main books.
There was a top heavy focus on the two bat characters, which left less room for the other's. That didn't mean that the others didn't have central arcs throughout the run. It is just meant by the proxy of having two bat characters. Their drama was brought up the most.
Arcs
Issues 1 through 4 Jason focused introductory
Issues 5 through 8 was a Yara focused arc
9 through 12 was a Roy centric arc
16 through 19 was a Cass centric arc
20 through 22 was a Jason centric arc
23 and 24 was a Jackson centric arc
25 and 26 was Cass and Yara
30 through 34 was another Roy centric arc
The annual plus 36 was a Jackson arc
37 and 38 was another Yara centric arc
40 through 43 was extremely focused in Jason with Cass as a close second.
Conclusions
It was a really interesting story to read, and it was fun to see what having Batgirl on a team does to the dynamics of a normally Robin only sort of line-uo. It's interesting that Jackson was the first of the two original characters to make the jump to mainline comics (2010) and Yara was later in 2021, having been the last of the team brought into the main timeline. It would be nice to see them come back together for a special crossover again, fill the niche group of fans that follow the limited fan material on this series.
#dc#dc comics#teen titans#teen titans dc#elseworld's teen titans#yara flor#jackson hyde#roy harper#jason todd#cassandra cain#honestly thank you for giving me an opening to talk about the series ever#i never get the chance to#unrelated but the fact that Yara disappeared from comics for so long was such a disrespect#her and Cass did not spend those issues becoming friends just for them to erase it and not even try to bring it over in any way#unreality
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hi!! i hope you don’t mind me asking this but i recently read harleen (specifically issue 1) and wondered if you might know of any other comics that have an outsider perspective of batjokes? thanks !!
I don't mind at all, anon! I also enjoy in-universe outside perspectives on Batman and Joker's relationship (and I've included quite a bit of it in fic). Harleen #1 does have a pretty great one:
The most common commentary on Batman and Joker from other characters is the ol' "why haven't you killed him yet?!" but that reflects more frustration than any inkling of the connection between Gotham's most famous nemeses. So with the help of @distort-opia, I wrangled panels from a couple dozen comics that show characters having a better (even if incomplete) understanding of what the heck is going on there.
Many of these may already be familiar if you've been around batjokes fandom long enough. Regardless, spoilers abound!
I've ordered these (mostly) in cover date order.
June 1996 - The Batman Chronicles #5
This is a flashback that takes place shortly after The Killing Joke. Barbara is understandably bitter about being fridged, and it's clear that officers who saw Batman and Joker laughing together have spread the word, because heyyyyy wtf?
October 1996 - Catwoman (1993) #38
Selina knows releasing other rogues is a good distraction; Batman is always more concerned about Joker than her.
May 1997 - Batman: Batgirl
Before this, Joker was firing his gun willy-nilly, hitting his own men, and he hit Batman accidentally. Barbara doesn't seem to think he fully understands the consequences of killing Batman, especially given the surprise he shows when Batman goes down.
Five years later, this story gets retold (with a worse rendition of Joker's fantastic oufit):
July 2002 - DC First: Batgirl/Joker
In this version, Barbara more actively realizes she needs to get at Joker by laughing at him, because he's caught up in a reality where Batman is the only other real person. (Not sure if this is the first comic to posit that idea, but it has shown up elsewhere.)
February 1999 - Catwoman (1993) #65
Joker has been terrorizing Catwoman for Batman-related reasons for a few issues, and she knows that saying she's killed Batman will devastate him. (You know, the more stories like this I see, the more I see Tom King actually didn't have too far a walk to jokerize Selina.)
August 2001 - Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight (1989) #144
Alfred has noticed that Joker's presence affects Bruce's behavior.
September 2003 - Batman: Gotham Knights #43
This take from Barbara is set before TKJ and meant to foreshadow (aftershadow?) it. Here she shows a better understanding of Batman and Joker's relationship than Bruce does.
October 2003 - Outsiders (2003) #3
Luthor knows just how to get under Joker's skin.
March 2011 - Streets of Gotham #19
Hush also knows how to get under Joker's skin.
March 2011 - Gotham City Sirens #19
Selina and Harley are thinking more about themselves here, but it's not hard to connect the dots. Joker is part of the criminal morass that Bruce is focused on fighting, and Joker's focus is constantly on how to best the Batman.
November 2011 - Batman: Noël
Bruce has been told that Catwoman has information about the Joker's whereabouts. Note that Selina isn't saying she's aware that Joker is up to something right now; she implies that Batman is always thinking about Joker. It's a fact she can bank on.
May 2013 - Injustice: Gods Among Us #4 (digital release #11)
Perhaps the most infamous example. This is related to the "why won't you kill him?" trope, but Clark's accusation takes it further by directly saying it's because Bruce loves fighting Joker more than he loves his friends and family.
Clark says something similar about Joker being Bruce's playmate in another comic:
August 2014 - Adventures of Superman (2013) #14 (digital release #41
Even outside of the Injustice universe, Clark knows Bruce's priorities are out of whack when it comes to Joker.
January 2013 - Catwoman (2011) #14
Selina just stating the obvious here, again after a now-faceless Joker has tormented her for Batman-related reasons for a couple issues.
April 2016 - Batman (2011) #49
Heartbreaking example from Alfred here. He watched Bruce's obsessiveness and understood that Bruce, consciously or subconsciously, saw dying with Joker as his destiny. He probably suspects that Joker didn't really die either and knows they're going to end up back on the same track.
April 2016 - Batman: Europa #4
These panels sum up Europa. Bane, always looking for fresh ways to break the Bat, saw Joker as a clear catalyst (even if he had to make up a convoluted plot to make Batman see it first).
January 2017 - All-Star Batman #4 (backer)
Duke is pretty much repeating Bruce's soliloquy from Death of the Family here, so he's not saying anything Bruce doesn't really know, but he doesn't know that Bruce knows. lol Interestingly, this happens before Dark Days: The Casting, in which Duke watches Joker demonstrate his love in a more positive way by trying to stop Bruce from blundering into everything that happens in Dark Nights: Metal and beyond.
January 2018 - Batman: White Knight #2
White Knight is problematic from a batjokes standpoint (and other standpoints!) but poor Harley presents another infamous outsider perspective here.
October 2018 - Harley/Gossamer Special
She's right and right to say it!
August 2020 - Birds of Prey (2020)
This take is interesting in how it posits that Joker already felt unfulfilled by Batman by the time he met Harley and that she was kind of a rebound.
August 2020 - The Joker 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular
This is from "The Last Smile," in which Harley reveals Joker's recurring nightmare about Batman mocking him as he's put to death. Joker didn't picture Harley appearing to save him, but perhaps he felt like Batman's respect was "saving" him all the long.
September 2020 - Batgirl (2016) #47
Nooooo! That's the thing he's sensitive about!
April 2021 - Batman/Catwoman #3
I have… a lot of thoughts about Batman/Catwoman, few positive, but if you can push past the muddling storytelling technique (and the batcat if that's not your thing), Selina has a lot to say about Bruce and Joker's relationship, like in this and the following example.
May 2021 - Batman/Catwoman #4
Catwoman describes how Batman treats all his rogues and then equates that with how he treats his lovers. How much do you know, Selina? Who is Joker's main competition?? It's Harvey, isn't it?!
May 2022 - Detective Comics (2016) #1058 (backer)
Even newbie F-level antagonists like The Forgotten know what's up!
Well, that was a lengthy but surely not exhaustive account of what other DC characters think about the vibes between the Dark Knight and Clown Prince of Crime. (May they be bewildered for years to come!) I hope you spotted some comics that caught your interest, anon.
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the brilliance of jay's progression in countdown is that it gives you a promise of positive character development, and then it breaks it. and it does so intentionally, in the most diverting way, to emphasize jason's inability to escape the cycle.
or, another post breaking down the series, where i repeat myself a lot but also make a clearer argument.
there are three notable events that happen at the beginning: the subtle showcase of jay's internal conflict considering his approach toward killing (the very first encounter with duela and the monitor), jay reaching out to donna in crisis ("i guess I just wanted to be around someone else who might know how it feels…"), and finally – his helmet shattering. these scenes tell you: jason's direction as a character is changing, and it seems, for the better. he's about to abandon his trauma-based (no matter how ironic, it does remain tied to his trauma) identity, he is connecting with people, and he seems to be on a brink of understanding that his moral standing does not provide easy answers or solutions either.
and for the most part of the series, we see that narrative unfolding (even if a bit non-linear, still innocently convincing way). it is, in many ways, supported by bringing up features of his characterisation from the 80s. jason remains, of course, still unpleasant in ways typical for this era of writing, and is conflicted and disagreeable, which makes sense for his utrh/post-utrh personality. however, there are also details that bring us back to his original robin run and his cameos on ntt – we see him being responsible (e.g. #43 – suggesting to bring in other superheroes in crisis, even though he clearly is not keen on the idea of working with them), determined (#16: “isn’t that your super-power, stupid boy? too stupid to ever give up?” “maybe it is”), sensitive (half of the whole storyline, really), caring for gotham (gotham by gaslight) and people-oriented (as early as #51).
the issue that particularly signals that jason is an inherently good person and externalizes his internal conflicts regarding classic heroic vigilantism vs his cynical approach is #30, where we meet batman of earth-15 – alt jason, whom our jason attempts to punch in the face.
and on topic of batman – jason is always gravitating towards batman. in gotham by gaslight jay looks delighted to see (the foreign) bruce and suggests checking with the local bat. then, earth-51 arc arrives.
earth-51 arc (#16 - #13) is a culmination of a promise of catharsis for jason. we have already seen him as batman, as a confirmation that a different life for him is possible. and here he has a chance to come to terms with his past and overcome it. he meets a version of bruce who has done exactly what he wanted him to do in utrh: killed the joker and the rest of the rogue gallery. what is most important – he is disappointed with this version of his father. we realise that jason, deep down, has an intimate and intuitive understanding of what batman stands for; and that he shares most of his values. this is a truth that you can't ignore especially since jay is the one to inspire this hollow, cynical version of batman to go out and fight in a seemingly lost battle.
and then batman dies. right in front of him.
this is a central moment of the narrative, for many reasons, most strikingly:
the symmetry:, a premise known from the lost days, becomes literal. this "the father had lost a son, and now the son had lost the father" is a cruel parallel to a death in the family and bruce's grief. jason's death created a gap between them that jay has been desperately trying to close, with no avail – because in bruce's mind, jason remains dead. now that jason is grieving bruce, the connection closes on both sides, and there's no way for either of them to reconcile the mourning with the reality of the other being truly alive. in this sense, the arc solidifies that jason can never come home.
no good deed goes unpunished. as i have mentioned before, so far jason is established as someone good at heart, but confused; and the reader intuitively assumes that his better, honest side will win. yet, the moment jason gives in to hope, it victimises and retraumatizes him. this event, again, brings to mind his own death, when he tried his best to save sheila and ended up paying the highest price for it. so, narrative-wise, jason is always punished for his kindness.
perhaps because of the nonchalant act that jason pulls off, many readers seem to miss that everything that happens after that arc is an upshot that follows logically from it.
jason's immediate determination to leave – and later a short period of indecision that ends up with his dramatic exit, pushing his team away, makes perfect sense when you consider what intense trauma he has just gone through. admittedly, i'm not a fan of the notion that he would give up at all (i think he's always ready to give up on himself, but not on the world), but then on the other hand, if there's anything that would cause it, narrative-wise, witnessing batman dying does sound like a good incentive for that. (it also has to be pointed out that jason seems to be confident that the rest of the team can go into the final battle without him anyway; it's not like he would go back to his earth not even knowing if said earth will exist tomorrow).
it's crucial to notice that following that crisis of faith (faith in fighting for the world) is followed by him raising up for the challenge again, but now... worse and even more confused. in the final confrontation with donna, jason antagonizes the superhero community, and when we see him at the end of the series (#1) his monologue indicates that he believes the capes to be naive. (significantly, he also focuses on bruce and offends the memory of 51 earth-bruce by calling him crazy; an action that can be seen as suppression of his own guilt and invoking, once again, a cruel symmetry considering bruce's engagement in victim-blaming after jason's death). this, once again, is consistent with the "no good deed" reading – jason diminishes superhero values because he has been continuously punished for living by them. (and unlike other superheroes, he doesn't have a support system nor skills in compartmentalization that would help him deal with this trauma) every leap of hope re-traumatised him. hence, it seems to be no surprise that jason decides to abandon the mask, and in the closing scene we see him without it. the promise of the shattered helmet is pushed to an extreme – jason does not get a new alt identity. he denounces the idea of superheroism completely.
and yet, what is ultimately subversive about the ending, is that jay is not truly a civilian and he does not abandon vigilante ways. he does the same thing. we see him without a mask, but he is clearly working a case. he might have rejected the symbolic dimension of the vigilante work, but he still carries the same delusional hope for bettering the world and protecting people that the superhero community does. only now, he is even more isolated and doesn't have any identity to go by (as he is still legally dead).
as such, the ending opens a new question regarding jason's understanding of himself and vigilantism, or rather the lack thereof. is it possible that vigilantism is really at the core of jay's trauma? and why, potentially, is it something that is so destructive for him as a character specifically? (and i have some answers for that, but i'm not going to get into it here, as it's already a very long post)
so, tldr; the genius of countdown is that it establishes jay as sensitive, determined, and fundamentally good (this is what the purpose of seeing him as batman is!), and then it brutally reminds the reader that jason’s tragedy is that on this specific earth, in this specific timeline, his love doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. the story goes on as it did; one way or another, jay is trapped in the cycle of his care ironically creating rifts between him and the others, and bringing him to his own downfall.
#okay i know i said a lot of it already but it's been some time since i finished the reread and i feel like my take on it has shifted a bit#and i wanted to emphasise the 'no good deed' interpretation!!#also it's just that i've seen a lot of people saying that countdown ends with jason being a civilian.#while i think the whole genius of it is that he is not really a civilian??#have you seen civilians doing whatever the hell he is doing in the final scene?#this is arguably the element of the narrative that is by most readers missed – and i understand why#it's easy to get confused when navigating an event that spans across pretty much all of dc#fortunately for you i have worms for brain. and i have hyperanalysed it#i'm not saying overanalysed btw because i genuinely believe that this is not a case of accidental narrative brilliance#this is a pretty clear and straightforward progression once you dissect it from the rest of the series#and there are a lot of details that further cement my belief that it had to be intentional#i mean. even the recognition that donna and jason know each other is already... a lot for dc writers?#the fatal flaw#51#no good deed#jay.zip#jay.txt#jason todd#core texts
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batgirl 2000 reread pt 2!!!
Back 2 batgirl..Cass has to have some of the worst daddy issues in the whole family and that's saying so much like between Bruce and Cain she deserves billions of dollars in compensation for all the all the way fucked up and over shit they put her through that she doesn't even have the capacity to work through yet
also this little interaction made me smile, average bat conversation
obsessed w how they integrate cass into the Bruce wayne: murderer storyline. We're operating fully from cass's perspective here and the whole thing is formatted like any other case she's taken on. we get exposition as cass investigates but there's a feeling of uneasiness as she paces the manor. she fully doesn't know who this guy is but we do. we do.
truly one of the most iconic ways anyones ever figured out his identity. she knows him so deeply that she's able to recognize the pure unbridled determination and fury in his eyes just from a picture
Cassandra cain truly stays unmatched, the "I'll kill you" "not tonight" panel hits just as hard as when I first read it. I need a physical copy of this shit NEOWWW. also cass's ability to recognize that Shiva is just as suicidal as she is, that in fighting each other their both fulfilling the others death wish..like we know she isn't going to kill her from the start but it makes the decision all the more powerful
EEEK she's so cutest patootest..she's a detective
cass if projecting onto every case she dealt with was a job..
srsly tho the whole alpha arc thing was sooo good especially when it came to cass's immovable belief that even people with the most diabolical histories are capable of change, are worth saving
ermmm..the lawyers are advising me not to discuss the stephcass drama issue at this current time..thank you
idk how I missed the political commentary the first time but issue 43 got it. FAWK AMERICA
I love this comic I LOVE THIS COMIC!!! I love love love when Cass has a conversation that leads her to experiment which leads her to self discovery. oh my god. truly baffled and disgusted as she discovers gender roles, she just like me fr
THIS^^^^^^ is so, it's such a good way of broadcasting cass's insecurities and emotions to the audience. unlike a lot of characters cass rarely ever says what she's feeling, even when asked she'll often lie. it's either that or a lack of self awareness/means of communication when it comes to her own emotions. BUT this also shows that cass is aware of the complex interpersonal dynamics and drama around her. Usually these things are just implied like when Cass wordlessly punches the shit out of dick for making babs cry, but this is one of the first times in the comic where these things that cass had been feeling and hearing are told instead of shown [which is pretty 50/50 considering the kinda jarring writer switch but I think this specifically was a cool choice]
Cass has a tendency to avoid emotional topics centered around her all together but at the climax of this arc she's forced to confront very conflicting views of her identity, social pressures, and her own insecurities.
this part got to me BAD
Cass's pure and utter devastation in response to Bruce attempting to fire her (I say attempt bcs that shit barely lasted a day) is so gutwrenching. batgirl was the first name she ever had, the first identity as a human being she'd ever had. Not to mention her suicidal-perfectionism. For Batman of all people to say those things to her, not only does she not have anything outside of batgirl (partially BECAUSE of him) but she's literally as close to perfect as it gets, matter a fact bruce literally calls her perfect. To be accused of jeopardizing the mission, despite that she might be the only person who values it just as much as bruce does..No wonder she shatters into a billion pieces when he does that to her. she has nothing else to be if she's not batgirl.
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Who is Roy Harper? - A Reading Guide
Roy Harper is a DC Comics legacy character introduced in the Golden Age as the protégé/son of Green Arrow (Oliver Queen). Roy was the original Speedy and had an extremely close relationship with his adoptive father Oliver Queen throughout the Golden and Silver Ages. In 1971, DC released the "Snowbirds Don't Fly" storyline in response to Nixon's announced War on Drugs. This storyline was a PSA designed to show what not to do when a loved one (particularly a young adult child) is struggling with addiction. This story would change the trajectory of Roy's story and cemented his role as a recovered addict, a part of his character that has unfortunately come to be his defining quality rather than being part of his larger story. Roy is a single father to Lian Harper (his daughter with the assassin Jade Nguyen/Cheshire), and has a sibling bond with family members Connor Hawke, Mia Dearden, and Emiko Queen. Roy's origins have always been connected to America's Indigenous Peoples and later comics have cemented their role in his life with his having been adopted by the Diné/Navajo as a young child before being adopted by Ollie in his teenaged years. Roy has had multiple mantles over the years, from Speedy, to Arsenal, to joining the Justice League of America as Red Arrow - but in every iteration is he the very image of a hero.
Reading list (with totally legal links) under the cut!
This reading list begins in the Golden Age and will take you through Pre-52 comics, and then end with the Green Arrow 80th Anniversary Super Spectacular! New 52 is left out because that is not Roy Harper, and Rebirth and more current comics are being left out for a lot of reasons that I won't list here.
If multiple issues are listed for one run at a time, only the first issue will be linked, the assumption is that you will be able to navigate to the following issues from there.
Golden Age:
More Fun Comics #78, 81-82, 89, 91-92
World's Finest Comics #7, 57, 70
Adventure Comics #121, 133, 137, 151, 155, 164, 166, 179, 184, 189, 196
Silver Age and Beyond:
Adventure Comics #233
World's Finest Comics #88
Adventure Comics #246, 256, 260-263
Teen Titans Vol 1 #4, 11, 19-43
The next story on this list is "Snowbirds Don't Fly" - it is HEAVILY RECOMMENDED to read the above stories BEFORE reading Snowbirds as they should be considered required context for the storyline as they are the context the story is building from. Don't be a Judd Winick- do your reading kids.
Green Lantern Vol 2 #85-86
Action Comics #436
Teen Titans Vol 1 #44-52
Green Lantern Vol 2 #100
Teen Titans Vol 1 #53
World's Finest Vol 1 #251
Best of DC #18
New Teen Titans Vol 1 #27, 29-32
Tales of the Teen Titans #50
New Teen Titans Vol 2 #19-21
Action Comics Vol 1 #613-618, 627-634, 636-640
Secret Origins Vol 2 #38
New Titans Vol 1 #60-69, 97
Green Arrow Vol 2 #75
New Titans Vol 1 #99-114
Showcase '94 #7
New Titans Vol 1 #0, 115-130, Annual #11
Green Arrow Vol 2 #97-101 * these issues should be read with the understanding that the writer, Chuck Dixon, is a vocal hater of Oliver Queen and did his best to ruin the character's image before and during the character's death as soon as he took over the run
Showcase '95 #8
Batman + Arsenal #1
JLA/Titans Vol 1 #1-3
Arsenal #1-4
The Titans Vol 1 #1-50 Annual #1
Green Arrow Vol 3 #1-15*, 16-21 - *(most Roy centered issues are 1, 5-6, and 8-9)
Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day #1-3
Teen Titans/Outsiders Secret Files/Origins Vol 1 (2003)
Outsiders Vol 3 #1-33
Green Arrow Vol 3 #32, 44-50
DC Special Return of Donna Troy #1-4
Outsiders Vol 3 #44-46, Annual #1
Justice League of America Vol 2 #1-31
Titans Vol 2 #1-14, 17-19
Justice League: Cry for Justice
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Hi I love your posts! I don’t know if you have already posted this but do we know what Bruce thinks of Dick and Starfire or of Starfire in general? I’m so sad DC tore them apart :(
Thank you! I'm so sad too but there may be hope yet.
Bruce hates Starfire.
Batman: Gotham Knights Issue #43
He just refers to her as "the alien".
But based on what Tim's saying, even they might not be canonically together but they sure as hell will live forever in each other's thoughts!
Teen Titans (2003) Issue #20
Bruce never liked her probably because she almost married his son (they actually did before DC rewrote that) and took him away. He skipped Dick and Kori's wedding for an "injury" which is hilarious because the last time he had an injury, Alfred needed to tranq him to make him stay in bed.
For almost taking Dick away from him, Bruce will never be okay with Kori or forgive her. He probably wiped his brow and thought "narrow miss" when he heard about the wedding and then immediately felt both guilty and happy about it.
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Cassandra Cain Reading Guide Part 1: General
So you want a reading list for Cassandra Cain? I'm gonna split this into various sections. So, if the urge increases of "I WANT TO READ MORE!" Then there are other tiers to help feed that great need.
And it all begins with this one.
Part II reading guide (Modern) you can find here.
Part III reading guide (Random) you can find here.
Part IV reading guide (Alternate versions) you can find here.
Part V reading guide (PAIN) you can find here.
The starting point is No Man's Land particularly these issues.
Batman #567 + Detective Comics #734 - Mark of Cain aka Cass's first appearance and her intro arc (Puckett/Scott/Peterson).
Legends of the Dark Knight #120 - First as Batgirl.
Batman #569 - first solo story
Azrael #56-57, #60-61
Gotham Knights #2
Batman Chronicles #18
Robin #73
There are more appearances of Cass in No Man's Land than these and the one above, but these are highlighted by her interactions with Jean-Paul Valley, Bruce, Tim, and Leslie Thompkins.
Batgirl Vol. 1 #1-11, #13-25
The first half of the Kelly Puckett/Damion Scott run. If you're wondering why #12 isn't mentioned, it's a crossover issue for Officer Down (basically Jim Gordon is shot, and the aftermath is him stepping down as Commish). It's totally up to you completist wise if you want to go into that story.
For key portions, #7 is Shiva/Cass meeting for the first time, #11 is a spotlight on David Cain, #18 & #20 are her first actual team-ups with Tim & Stephanie, Not her first meetings (she first met Tim in #120, and Stephanie in Robin #88).
During #24 we have another crossover, this event being Bruce Wayne: Murderer? This leads into the next crossover which hits in #27 & #29 Bruce Wayne: Fugitive. Bruce is the main suspect of a murder leading the Bat Family to investigate it. It is optional BUT--
The primary antagonist of the crossover has a critical role in Cassandra's life. So if you want-- Batman #605 (reveal of the antagonist of Bruce Wayne: Murderer?/Fugitive) Batman #606-607 (aftermath to the reveal) Cassandra only appears in #605 and has a two-panel cameo in #607.
Batgirl Vol. 1 #26-37
The second half of the Puckett/Scott run. Again, #27 & 29 are x-overs. #30-32 is an arc drawn by Scott but written by Chuck Dixon. #33-37 is the closeout of the run.
For issues going on while this run, there were four specials published that featured Cass.
DC First- Batgirl/Joker #1 (Cassandra fights the Joker.)
Batgirl Annual #1 (one linear story of Cass/Bruce on an adventure)
Batgirl: Secret Files & Origins #1.
Batgirl/Ghost: The Resurrection Machine #1-4.
It's up to you if you want to read the last one. It's Cass's only crossover comic, But yeah.. I’m not particularly fond of the story.
#38 features Stephanie exiting the supporting cast and features the first Batgirl issue by Andersen Gabrych.
Superboy #85 is where you need to read next. It has Cass teaming up with Conner Kent/Superboy. This issue helps leading into----
Batgirl Vol. 1 #39-57
Dylan Horrocks’ run.. #39-42 deals with Superboy and a villain called Black Wind (#39-40). Black Wind shows up again in #43-44 with Cass also tangling with an OLD Batman villain Dr. Death.
#45 is when Rich Leonardi arrives as artist for the comic. This is also the same issue Cass dons Babs' Batgirl costume. #46-49 continues the build-up of tension Cass has with Bruce (starting in #39) which leads to #50 Cass vs. Bruce! Horrocks/Leonardi's crown jewel of their run.
#51-52 Cass takes on Poison Ivy. #53 Stephanie returns to the comic as Robin. #54 sadly is when Barbara exits the title as a supporting character. #55-57 is War Games x-over resulting in Stephanie being killed off, and Barbara leaving Gotham, gutting Cassandra's supporting cast.
During this near the middle of this run, another maxi-series is published by DC that features Cass:
Justice League Elite #1-12
- Kasumi (Cass in disguise and spying for Batman). If you're looking for Cass tangling with threats beyond her usual street fare than by all means.
Nightwing #81
- features Cassandra's first encounter with Deathstroke the Terminator. A gorgeous choreographed fight by Devin Grayson and art by Rich Leonardi.
Detective Comics #790 - a War Games prelude with Cass helping Bruce on a mission while both reflecting on Stephanie Brown who is at a crossroads.
Robin #132
Batgirl #58
Robin #133
Batgirl #59
- the Fresh Blood story which features Cass teaming up with Tim both reeling from the fallout of War Games crossover event and their new status quos.
- #58 is the start of Andersen Gabrych's run on the comic.
- An epilogue to this story occurs in Batman Allies: Secrets & Origins #1 in a tale (written by Gabrych).
Batgirl Vol. 1 #58-73
#60-62 is Cassandra's new status quo. Ale Garza/Pop Mhan provide art for most of Gabrych's run (save one issue). These three issues have Cass tangle with the Brotherhood of Evil and a "ghostly" Stephanie continues to shows up too!
#63-64 is Cass having a rematch with Deathstroke who brings Ravager along for the ride. This is basically Gabrych tying up a subplot introduced in Teen Titans comics happening at the same time period (i.e. Rose posing as Cass), but you don't really need to read that to understand the why. So I’m not going to give the issue # to that.
#65-73 is the Destructions' Daughter arc. Everyone who has history with Cass shows up in this arc. Bruce, David Cain, Babs, Black Canary, a few villains of her past (Shrike and Alpha), and of course Lady Shiva in #68.
It's here Gabrych has to juggle a lot of tie-ins. Infinite Crisis was looming on the horizon and Cassandra was dealing with parts since the beginning of her run. #66, and #69-70 are considered the "lowest" points of the run and the Vol. 1 series.
#71-73 is when the action ramps up again with Gabrych having to speed his way to the ongoing's conclusion in #73.
I know I left out appearances (Supergirl, Batman/Superman, Harley Quinn, Young Justice, Birds of Prey, Robin, and Gotham Knights). Also a mini (Batman: City of Lights). But they're just sprinkles. Added goodies to the toppings that is this entire run. Okay, save the last one and maybe Batman/Superman... You will see them on other lists I have for Cass (mostly part 3 and 5).
DC Festival of Heroes: The Asian Superhero Celebration #1
- contains TWO stories centered on Cassandra. Along with this neat variant cover by Artgerm. "Sounds" literally feels like a story during or just after the Puckett/Scott run (#37) written by Mariko Tamaki and drawn by Marcus To.
"What's in the Box?" is the other story that features Cassandra written/drawn by Dustin Nguyen. Though shorter than the prior one it is still a gorgeously drawn story. Not mentioned, but alluded based on the art/timeline Cass is in her Black Bat attire. So you can place this story after Gates of Gotham in the old canon.
Batman: Urban Legends #7 (Hunter or Hunted...)
- The story/art by Guillaume Singelin provides a truly UNIQUE tale starring Cass. The action is top-notch, we're given probably the best fight sequence from start to finish involving the character in a LONG TIME. The story is a literal feast for the eyes.
Batman: Wayne Family Adventures Episodes 32-33 "All Seeing"
- The second major arc that focuses on Cass showcases the many qualities of the character on why there are so many passionate fans of hers. A good starter or introduction for new readers on the character.
All season 1 episodes of WFA are free and available here:
Episodes 90-91 "What I Want"
- The third major story arc focuses on Cass's comic origin while also giving us a team-up gone awry between her and Damian Wayne. Gives new readers a further understanding of Cass building upon Episodes 32-33.
Shadow of the Batgirl
- a Young Adults graphic novel written by Sarah Kuhn and drawn by Nicole Goux. Kuhn gives Cassandra a modern origin taking elements from Puckett and James Tynion IV/Scott Snyder’s Batman & Robin Eternal origin to give us something newly unique on it’s own.
A highly recommended story!
Batgirls #14
- The best issue of the Batgirls ongoing series. Artist Jonathan Case pulls off a masterclass of art, inking, and coloring in this special “silent” issue. There’s no need to read any prior issues. You can go in without reading the prior two arcs (Batgirls #9-12, 2022 Annual, and #13), but it adds to the payoff of this issue.
Yes, writers Michael Conrad and Becky Cloonan cheat in the format, but the way they sneak the dialogue in is absolutely perfect. After years of being denied the special format, Cass gets it and showcases WHY the character just works so well.
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every sleep token song is applicable to batjokes 2/?
songs in order : Nazareth / Granite / Atlantic / Sugar / The Apparition
media in order : Joker : Killer Smile / Batman #49 / Batman : The Killing Joke / The Joker (Earth-43) / The Batman Who Laughs Issue #3
part 1
#batjokes#sleep token#Joker : Killing Smile#batman 49#the killing joke#the joker earth 43#the batman who laughs#batman x joker#batman#the joker
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ϟ for IRIS Log #1548, the moment(s) that made me the sicko in the window was a) when dick thought jason and cass had blown up and b) when jason asks to throw up and bruce was like "he's always been this way" there is just SO MUCH conveyed in this fic through dialogue it's amazing
THANK YOU it was a joy to write even though the formatting possibly made me worse as a human being. i think my biggest HAHHA... YES!!!! moment. hm.
"(01:43) Red Hood: Stop telling them secrets. I’m private. I don’t like you.
(01:43) Batman: (Sighing) I know."
this is a full sickos moment to me. talking past each other. Jason is not being serious- he would say the same thing in this instance to Roy or Kory or Dick or Artemis, (etc). All of whom are people he does really like and respect, and who would respond in different ways but would not think he's being serious (for the most part. Dick would ignore it, but because he and Jason don't talk about their relationship, Jason thinks that's the same thing as Dick thinking he's joking. oops!) Bruce, however, is taking him seriously. They've lost the ability to listen to each other and to phrase things in ways that the other understands, and in absence of communication comes assumptions, which are any relationship death knell and are for sure murdering this one. Jason thinks Bruce doesn't love him anymore, feels disowned and abandoned. Bruce thinks that his love for Jason is unwelcome and unwanted and tries to keep it from him so that it doesn't make Jason angrier for feeling parental things about Jason that Jason doesn't want from him. (insert my unpublished bruce and jason relationship analysis here). FULL sickos to me in 2 lines.
Something that never made it into the fic which i regret now is that Dick ordered Damian off of comms not because of the sex jokes (although that Is what made him remember damian was on there, just because that's when damian spoke for the first time since the direct crash aftermath) but because he didn't want damian on the line if they all ended up listening to jason have a serious medical emergency and perhaps dying. damian is aware of sex. talia is a doctor. bruce does sex ed regularly and it's only moderately traumatizing. Damian however has seen and heard enough people die that it doesn't even occur to him that that could be something Dick is worried about, and if Dick says that it's the issue he was thinking of in front of everybody Damian is going to start talking about how that doesn't bother him and how hardened he is to death and that Will make dick feel worse!!!!!!! haha. yes... yes!!!!! (sickos)
and my littlest one. for the longest time at the very beginning it was just "Selective Line, Batman, Robin:" because I wanted to convey to the reader a sense of the structure in the beginning so that when it changed later it would not be a surprise or feel like bending the format to the story instead of making the story fit the format, but I didn't actually know what to put there, so it just floated there, alone, mocking me. And finally we figured that they should be arguing about damian going to go and visit Dick in bludhaven for the weekend (sickos moment on many levels), and then Damian pulling out his secret weapon of calling talia, but not for himself. Specifically for her to visit jason. Bruce can be regular about talia in his own way in most circumstances but in the context of jason and talia he becomes the fucking grinch.
Damian does not end up calling Talia. Talia busts into the hospital to read his chart and heckle everyone about his care and treatment while Jason's still waking up from his long ass orthopedic surgery and Damian goes and hangs out with Dick while Bruce is in the hospital with Jason. LOL. Everybody wins!! not bruce though. bruce wins talia interacting with jason in front of him, and a migraine.
anyways. im glad that the background characterization threads running through this fic were notable to people who weren't just me <3
ask meme
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Yay Some Jason and Barbara interactions!
Do you know if there any other comics where they interact either platonically or romantically? I’m a fan of both.
More Jason and Babs interactions for the soul!!
I don't remember them even having romantic interactions unless you count his one sided feelings on the Three Jokers comics. I'll tag it to their ship's tag, so if maybe a fan of the pairing knows something that I'm missing.
Here are my favourite platonic interactions:
Batman: gotham knights issues #43-44 (the first one takes place during Jason's robin days and the second one is about batfamily -Babs included- reacting to his death).
Task force Z issue #8 (Jason runs into various Batfamily members- Babs included- and addresses some of the issues between him and the rest of bats)
Batman:Urban Legends issue #1-6 (a Jason centric story where Babs not only provides help but also tries to remedy the relationship he has with Bruce)
Batman:Wayne Family Adventures episode 53 (a funny and fluffy situation where Babs discovers Jason's online activities)
Red Hood: Outlaws webtoon (it's established within the webtoon's canon that the two people who are always there for Jason are Babs and Dick. On episode #42, he spends time on their appartment and on the latest episode #47, he asks Babs help)
Batman Eternal issues #10-12, #15, #18-20, #24-28, #36, #41-42, #52(Bruce asks Jason look after Barbara who is trying to get her father out of jail. Jason also has feelings for Babs on this run )
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